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Everyone's at full power and fully equipped.

Chose any ONE PLAYABLE version of the characters from their own respective series.

Battle takes place at Bin Laden's old hide out in Pakistan.

Link and Bayonetta with their eyes closed.

Link closes his eyes cause Bayonetta is ugly. awesome

But yeah, probably team 2.

Bayonetta's the top and the others are about the same, team 2 probs wins.

Are they naked?

No, they are fully equipped. This is the opposite of the normal Final Destination.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
No, they are fully equipped. This is the opposite of the normal Final Destination.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Are they naked?

But Bayonetta can turn naked at will...hmm

Bayonetta is too fast, not sure if she can damage Kain but if she can summon her larger form especially the last one she can win. War and Link may as well not even be there, they get killed by the debris of the other two fighting.

We don't usually use Queen Shiba as it requires outside help.

Originally posted by Burning thought
War and Link may as well not even be there, they get killed by the debris of the other two fighting.

No. Just no. We're not doing this.

Originally posted by BloodRain
We don't usually use Queen Shiba as it requires outside help.

True enough, although to be fair its not likely useful anyway since it takes her a long time to actually become Queen shiba once the activation starts.

What are bayonettas best feats strength/durabilitywise? skyscraper kicking? a lot of things about that scene bother me due to the physcial implications of simply kicking/head butting a skyscraper like that.

I cannot think of any off the top of my head, having completed the game a long time ago but I recall she uses her "demons" to handle a lot of the large bosses rather than her own strength.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No. Just no. We're not doing this.

No we are not

Tbh most of her summons could be interrupted while shes doing her chant/dance, but thats if War or Kain can get to her fast enough.

Skyscraper had witchtime, charging and I think some mumbled spell,(?) apart from whatever that is theres catching a satellite. Though strange is that she catches it by the ring around the satellite which isn't even attached to it.. '-'

Or teleport/range attack her fast enough.

Then Kain can win this if her best feats take too much time, Kain does not need much time to perform an attack. He only needs a few seconds where bayonetta's attacks, especially her better ones take some witch powers/chants etc

Also is this satellite the one Balder uses to shoot her with? then he brings it down and she catches it? I think ill go watch her fight balder since thats one of the few times she manipulates large objects without her "demons".

I thought this ho was like, invisible to people in the human realm or some stupid thing. How does Kain see her?

Power of pure sight gifted by Raziel. Kain can see most spectoral entities anyway and humans can sense what happens, technically unlike the EG who cannot be seen or sensed in the normal realm because hes not technicaly in it Bayonetta excists on the human plane in the sense she can manipulate objects around her and her actions can be felt by humans.

Like in the beginning the fat bloke (dont recall his name) when shes smashing up the angels, he can sense the things dropping around him and can be struck by them.

I am yet to be convinced however that she can hurt Kain, at least not while being at a distance and charging one of her slow "chant" attacks.

''The thing is that while she can't be harmed, she can't harm people outside of purgatorio either.'' From some poster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CAgpwqk2jg#t=8m8s
She still has the strength advantage of anyone in this thread. Speed isn't as impressive, 50m/s~ movement speed with supersonic+ to possible hypersonic reactions. Even so, she still has the fastest speed/reactions in this thread too, that includes being able to move twice as fast as Kain.

I think thats how it worked, I remember when you are inside purgatorio (or when shes inside the human realm) she cannot harm angels who are in another realm unless she uses physical objects present in both worlds like lamp posts and cars and such.

Whats the strength feat? sending the oil tanker flying? I dont know how heavy an oil tanker is but I think shes going to have to use her full speed and strength as well as a sword to pierce kain. She uses her hands/feet more often than a sword although she does have that Katana iirc

twice as fast as Kains movement speed is not that major. Also I dont think she can teleport can she? at least not majorly otherwise she would use it against the final boss rather than running/jumping all over the place.

Also TK will halt that speed advantage. I think the fact Kain will be the one dictating the terms of the fight with teleport and TK will make Kain the eventual victor (and War ofc, although Kain could gain some interesting powers if he devours War).

I forgot how much I missed Burning Thought's insightful and well thought out comments.

Thanks I guess even if it may be sarcasm

Originally posted by Burning thought
Also TK will halt that speed advantage. I think the fact Kain will be the one dictating the terms of the fight with teleport and TK will make Kain the eventual victor (and War ofc, although Kain could gain some interesting powers if he devours War).

What about that there other guy involved? You know, the Aryan in the Peter Pan outfit. What kind of powers would devouring him give Kain? If he even can that is.

Not much since Link gains most of his powers from objects/items rather than physical/mental traits. Although by the looks if it Scenario has not got the interest in argueing whether kain can or not. Perhaps Bayonetta can kill Link for Kain through inspire hate/mind control.

The strength feat would be throwing that creature with the force to not only take that tanker in its stride but to also knock that large guy a good distance back. Its above the likes of pillars, obelisks and large demons here.

True its not far above the rest in speed but if she can move faster then her opponents actions, like whats needed for TK, then those opponents will have some trouble in tagging her.

That was simply an angel, they get thrown around a lot. To make Temperantia fall you would simply have to defeat its own propulsion not its weight which is unkown, likely sorcery as it does not have jets or wings.

If shes only twice as fast then shes not going to be able to do much by comparison unless they dont have any distance between them. I dont think she has the power to destroy Kain before he simply teleports to make major distance between them. Then through TK or some magic the ball is in his court.

So, uh, which Link are we using here...?

Actually, it doesn't really matter, does it? Kain vs. Bayonetta is the only remotely interesting matchup here. With Link vs. Kain everything that can be said already has been, many times, and no one's mind will ever be changed, and then I'm reasonably sure no one actually cares that much about War.

That leaves Bayonetta. I don't actually know that much about about her, but I know she has a time stop/witch time thing. She's also, IIRC, a bullet timer. Can Kain deal with that?

He can't. But I'm trying not to involve myself in this thread.

Bayonetta can bullet time easily, I think Jeanne fires at her from close range (a meter or two) and she can react to the bullet in flight. On the other hand, her time powers seem limited on her own reactions and what she can see around her and it lasts for a very short time.

I dont think she can damage Kain at all, the same force to throw an oil tanker is not enough to destroy Kain. Her most powerful attacks take a lot of time, hell most of her attacks do unless shes fist fighting/gun slinging.

Kain on the other hand has mind control, distance through teleportation (as well as surprise), TK, blood shower and probably more, even lightning could be useful.

So here's what I'm thinking:

1. Bayonetta's stronger attacks take time.

2. Bayonetta has access to a time stop.

What, then, prevents Bayonetta from using said time stop to have all the time she needs to perform her time consuming attacks?

Because it does not really stop time, more so slows it down to a crawl and for an extremely limited period. She does not seem fully in control of it either, when she is in certain fights it just seems to activate when she is leaping from a platform to another. Not sure if she can mix the two powers either, I think witch time takes similiar energy iirc. For example as said above a bullet almost strikes her but it does not activate and she just dodges said bullet. It seems throughout the game her actual use of the ability is on inanimate objects outside of gameplay like falling rocks.

Tbh, her stronger attacks will not make a difference since the only one that i belive would required Jeanne to do (summon Queen Shiba).

Bayonetta is not the only one with time manipulation anyway.

Team 2. I still like War, though.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That was simply an angel, they get thrown around a lot. To make Temperantia fall you would simply have to defeat its own propulsion not its weight which is unkown, likely sorcery as it does not have jets or wings.

If shes only twice as fast then shes not going to be able to do much by comparison unless they dont have any distance between them. I dont think she has the power to destroy Kain before he simply teleports to make major distance between them. Then through TK or some magic the ball is in his court.
That'd be if the big guy just fell straight down, but in this case we see it being launched back. So the force from the throw would have to be > his weight to knock him back.

Twice is enough. If Kain's attacks and moves arent fast enough to tag her then he's out of options as his attacks, magic and TK are based off his physical movements and gestures. This means Kain wont have such an easy time at long range while Bayonetta will win when it comes to close quarters with here superior strength, speed and Pillow Talk sword. And thats if he can port away with Bay and Link shooting at him.

Last few things; War will most likely die first, (if its a good Link) Bay's time powers may be > Kain's and transforming into crows/bats seems like a good way to counter TK.

That would be in any case of his motion failing him. Also his weight is unkown, hes not necesserily solid. The reason he fell backwards was because the oil tanker/angel hit him, Although the force the angel was thrown was less than the force required to break thin steel whatever oil tankers "tanker" is made from so its evident that not much force was required to knock out the force levitating it.

He does not have to tag her to win,a lot of his powers dont require any kind of strike at all and she cannot react to something she cannot see or predict to like the dimentional teleport. She will hardly be able to damage kain with her weapons while Kain can kill her with but a strike, arguably from any of his powers not just his sword. Shooting? I dont recall any major feats from bayonettas guns.

True she could use that to counter TK but she cannot do much fighting while turning into crow/bats and in the time it takes her to do it Kain could have teleported in for the kill or back to a long range. Her weakness is the requirement to be up close to do any major damage.

The impact caused the movement, 3rd law of motion. Probably not solid but something that big could have the density of.. bran and it'd still be the strongest feat here. And we know its made of alot of stone. Dont look into the tanker not breaking that much, its the way the verse does it. For instance directly after we have the bus falling on Bay that should by irl functions be spiked on her, not be caught.

That I remember all of his techniques require a gesture of some kind, gestures that would not keep up. Anything Kain could do after teleporting < point-blank bullet dodging. You sure she couldnt? 'Cause having much higher strength than Raziel would suggest otherwise.

Even if he 'ports in what could he do? Even if there was something she can form back to normal almost instantly. That 'weakness' is covered by superior speed to close any gap, more so with witch-time.

I doubt that, he could be thin, he could be small and its still not even necesserily strong because the oil tanker pushed him away, an oil tanker is not really that heavy and it was not moving at that speed. Then I question whether irl functions such as physics should be argued concerning bayonetta if materials and functions are not followed. The oil tanker should have been damaged, although tbh the Angel should have been ripped up if the forces used to launch it AND strike the oil tanker since their not that tough. The angel therefore could not be thrown with much force or its body would have been ripped, the tanker would have busted and tbh the tanker did not bust when it hit Temp either since looking back again it made audiable noise as it struck him as he landed. It took bayonetta lighting it to blow it up.

They dont have to keep up with anything unless their projectiles then Bayonettas speed is irrelevant unless your suggesting she can clear the gap between her and kain and kill him before he makes the gesture. Thats not evident, in serious combat she is not all that fast at least not fast enough to blitz. No because point black bullet dodging was right in front of her, she can react to the chamber and has some idea of how to dodge, she may not even know Kain is there before the fraction of a second it takes for kain to strike from the teleport due to the fact Kain can appear behind her. Why would having higher strength than Raziel suggest otherwise?

Kill her in a strike? devour her soul into the reaver? I dont think shes ever survived losing her soul, not sure shes even survived being bisected even. "any gap"? shes not covered that much space on her own two legs to suggest "any" gap and witch time is of limited use since its only for a few seconds at a time.

Thin body or like a shell? Both are untrue though. And its still the 3rd law. He could only be knocked back through the force coming from the tanker, said tanker could only get that force from the creature Bay threw. Kain should have broken the wall when Raziel hit him. The pillar should have shattered/landed on top of the ground when Link threw it. Sora's Keyblade should have broke the builden instead of launching it. Dante should have splattered the egg-sacks when he kicked them. Kratos shouldnt of been able to move Cronos' hand as he's only move the flesh on the hand not the hand itself. All small details.

Suggesting both. That she could get to Kain fast and avoid any of his moves, like 'grabbing' gesture for TK, Negatory, when she shot at Balder he used his witch time to redirect the bullets and for when he set time back to normal launch them back at her less than an arms length from her head. Thats 0.001 second reaction time with no aim dodging involved. And its because of this millisecond reactions that Kain's moves, especially his slashes, wont get past her. As in the end Raz was eventually able to draw some blood, Bay being many times stronger wont have as much trouble.
Thought we were talking about her as crows/bats? As said he'll never be able to physically touch her... unless she wanted him to. Being faster then anything he's faces would count for something, and besides a second of witch time being a massive thing, she can keep it active for a good while. She's even had convocations with it on.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thin body or like a shell? Both are untrue though. And its still the 3rd law. He could only be knocked back through the force coming from the tanker, said tanker could only get that force from the creature Bay threw. Kain should have broken the wall when Raziel hit him. The pillar should have shattered/landed on top of the ground when Link threw it. Sora's Keyblade should have broke the builden instead of launching it. Dante should have splattered the egg-sacks when he kicked them. Kratos shouldnt of been able to move Cronos' hand as he's only move the flesh on the hand not the hand itself. All small details.


Colorful! =D

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thin body or like a shell? Both are untrue though. And its still the 3rd law. He could only be knocked back through the force coming from the tanker, said tanker could only get that force from the creature Bay threw. Kain should have broken the wall when Raziel hit him. The pillar should have shattered/landed on top of the ground when Link threw it. Sora's Keyblade should have broke the builden instead of launching it. Dante should have splattered the egg-sacks when he kicked them. Kratos shouldnt of been able to move Cronos' hand as he's only move the flesh on the hand not the hand itself. All small details.

Suggesting both. That she could get to Kain fast and avoid any of his moves, like 'grabbing' gesture for TK, Negatory, when she shot at Balder he used his witch time to redirect the bullets and for when he set time back to normal launch them back at her less than an arms length from her head. Thats 0.001 second reaction time with no aim dodging involved. And its because of this millisecond reactions that Kain's moves, especially his slashes, wont get past her. As in the end Raz was eventually able to draw some blood, Bay being many times stronger wont have as much trouble.
Thought we were talking about her as crows/bats? As said he'll never be able to physically touch her... unless she wanted him to. Being faster then anything he's faces would count for something, and besides a second of witch time being a massive thing, she can keep it active for a good while. She's even had convocations with it on.

I was hinting at the materials making him up, they could be thin. Thin plates of ceramic, marble etc because of the way he is made up, very smooth piecies that fit together in parts rather than being one solid piece. The tanker already had some force with it as it was going through the air already. possibly, although we dont know how think, deep or large the piecies Kain strikes against. They may be small but important, I wonder how can we argue a lot of these cases while staying true to science? also their not that much smaller than the science behind what we are discussing due to the fact in an equation ignoring piecies of evidence would give wrong results. We know based on facts around the durability of oil tankers, the stone statue cherb etc that we have a lot to base durabiltiy on in the actual universe.

You cant dodge a "grabbing gesture" because thats not whats grabbing her, the bands of force that consist of TK materialise on top of a target to constrict them. You cannot really dodge them and specifically he used lightspeed which is the lumen sage "time stop" although for some reason PIS or high power/concentration requirement neither bay or Balder use their super speed or time powers constantly but I was refering to the fact that Bay was more or less in combat with Balder wheras if Kain suddenly disapears she has no idea where his attack would be coming from on the other hand as fast as Balder was when he arranged the bullets, she was still facing him and in theory had already processed him if not his full attack.

Raz drew blood after using his weapon the wraith blade, the spiritual form of perhaps the strongest weapon in LoK. The wraith blade, not pure physical strength was raziels victory yet he could not pierce Kain with the PIS of his claw tip before then meaing Bayoneta would have to use a sharp blade+speed and her full strength to pierce kain. Assuming she succeeds, whats this one stab going to do? little...I doubt a slashing motion in the hopes of cutting Kain in half would help due to the fact kain would have ridiculous durability across the side of his body her blade connects with hence why the tip of a blade is necessery but a small piece of damage like that would be nothing to Kain, hell even a normal man could probably take a single stab depending on where it is.

her crow/bat form is not quite the same as Kains mist form in the fact that it takes slightly longer for the bats to dispurse her form from whrere she was and return which is prob why Kain does not use his bat form to dodge attacks rather than mist whch is quicker. The more she uses her bat form, the more time she gives Kain due to the fact its far far slower than her own speed. I still suggest Kain can surprise her/TK her and if shes avoiding his TK constantly by turning into bats, or if somehow she can react to kain appearing randomly out of her sight range (she does not have precog) then based on chance (kain doing it over and over again) hes eventually going to hit her, Kains not "slow", its not like a normal human trying to strike Dante and Kain can process thoughts from nothing in frations of a second. Also dont forget kain has time powers as well, they are not as powerful as bayonettas but they last longer.

Almost any wound Bayonetta could possibly land would be fleeting to Kain as he could recover from it. Bayonetta cannot say the same and shes not fast enough to run rings around Kains attacks constantly especially if her witch time does not make eventualy difference. Kain would only need one teleport and he has the range required to keep the ball in his court. He could summon lightning which would no doubt mess her up.

Okidoke. A 1m think marble shell at that size = 6300 tons, would have to be 11cm thick to be 700 tons aka equal to Kain. Tanker had a downward motion completely negated by the horizontal motion. We generally go by what happened and how it can be judged, not the small issues that would be problematic in real world physics. Kinda why anyone moving at Mach 33 doesn't just run off the planet.
Can move from the spot where the TKer is 'grabbing', if Bay's on the move she'd be to fast for his moves to reach her. Eh witch time, lightspeed, same thing different name. If she's in combat and see's Kain teleport she'll be on a higher alert then just finishing a shot to have the bullets right in her face. Kain can in theory strike in 0.05s, Bay's reactions are 0.0008. Unless its 60x harder to turn and dodge then it is to dodge I think she'll be fine.
And by shoving his claws into his chest. Her full strength would cut him on each strike given the difference in strength, even that one small slash by Raziel was enough to make Kain suffer momentarily.

Well the bats are only to get out of TK if she's caught, by the time Kain 'ports over there she'd already reformed. You forget that in all this trail and error TK and slashing works in Bayonetta's favour as much as Kain's as for each time his TK fails she'll be closer to Kain, and when she's close enough or Kain decides to 'port in thats when he'll be at a disadvantage to Bay's superior speed and strength. Speed wise in close combat its like an amateur boxing with a pro, hard to do much when you're opponent moves twice as fast and reacts even faster. Whats his time powers strength, 2/3/5x?
Almost any wound Bayonetta could possibly land would be fleeting to Kain as he could recover from it. Bayonetta cannot say the same and shes not fast enough to run rings around Kains attacks constantly especially if her witch time does not make eventualy difference. Kain would only need one teleport and he has the range required to keep the ball in his court. He could summon lightning which would no doubt mess her up.
A small cut hurt for few, larger more rapid cuts will take its toll. Range < witch time, even a small dose of it can get her to Kain before he realises.. actually whats stopping her from slowing time and going crazy on Kain.

Although its not the same feat, kain>the muscle power required to throw 700 tons over. Bayonetta did not actually move Temp herself, she just knocked him off propulsion using an angel which is not really that heavy and an oil tanker. Their not "small issues" when theres a lot of them together that can show us a direct somparison of weights/scales. Kinda the same thing I guess, although Balders seems better imo. "higher alert" is not the same as precog and Kains teleport happens again and again so even if shes looking all around her she could turn at the same time Kain ports behind her, shes playing with borrowed time, even more so if Kain has his own time powers activated. "small slash"=wraith blade and heart torn out? thats more than Bayonetta would be able to achive even with the strength advantage because she can only cause damage through thrust and her sword is damn thin, it woud be like a man being stuck with a tiny pin, only this man has ridiculous regen and has no more vital organs. Also, Shuraba (bayonettas katana) may be even less effective than Raziels claw tip due to the fact the blades edge is curved not rapierlike e.g. more surface area so her higher strength could be reduced by several orders of magnitude.

Unless Kain teleports back again then she needs to chase him across the map while Kain TKs, lighting bolts and sends all manner of nasty projectiles at her from time freezing to soul ripping. He could just mind control her, her "mind" cant dodge. His time powers are about 3-5x if I recall last, ill have to look again at some point but the creatures speed in the time video was reduced drastically so as fast as Bayonetta is, she would still be at a crawl when its cut into piecies and Kain can put his right next to her through teleportation which she does not have.

Depends on the "toll" part considering Kains regen afterall she cannot keep him in witch time for long. She can go crazy on him but witch time does not last long as I said, even if a tank was dorment it does not matter how long a man hits it, your not likely to dent the armour. Mist form works almost instantly so he could just live out her time attack as a spray of vapour or teleport into the sky, in theory Kain could keep up some form of flight using teleportatio and float wheras bayonettas madam butterfly wings are slow and ineffective for long periods.

3rd law says it was her strength that did it all. Imagine if you were Bay, with your reactions someone doing Kain's 'port&slash will seem like there strikes are moving at 1/10 walking speed. Even if he gets behind her if shes alert he wont get a hit in. Seeing as thinner = better PSI, not a bad trade off. Wraith blade's advantage < Bay's superior strength and superior time powers.

This is where Witch Time comes in handy, and unlike LoK's thats only showing is in gameplay where its 3/5x Bay's actually has it demonstrated in a cutscene being 1,000x. 5x and Bay will be half Kain's speed with 3x making her 3/4 his speed, but even with 5x her reactions will still be slightly better. Also been reading up on his mind skills; Control Mind works on humans exclusively and Spirit Wrack, maybe both, is a projectile.

A small cut causes him a good amount of pain, Bays would do more and leave more than one cut. Especially as her Time can last a few seconds in gameplay and much longer in cutscenes. Bad comparison as her attacks actually damage him. Really doubt she'll hold the stop if she cant hit him, or could use it before he activates it.

Originally posted by BloodRain
3rd law says it was her strength that did it all. Imagine if you were Bay, with your reactions someone doing Kain's 'port&slash will seem like there strikes are moving at 1/10 walking speed. Even if he gets behind her if shes alert he wont get a hit in. Seeing as thinner = better PSI, not a bad trade off. Wraith blade's advantage < Bay's superior strength and superior time powers.

This is where Witch Time comes in handy, and unlike LoK's thats only showing is in gameplay where its 3/5x Bay's actually has it demonstrated in a cutscene being 1,000x. 5x and Bay will be half Kain's speed with 3x making her 3/4 his speed, but even with 5x her reactions will still be slightly better. Also been reading up on his mind skills; Control Mind works on humans exclusively and Spirit Wrack, maybe both, is a projectile.

A small cut causes him a good amount of pain, Bays would do more and leave more than one cut. Especially as her Time can last a few seconds in gameplay and much longer in cutscenes. Bad comparison as her attacks actually damage him. Really doubt she'll hold the stop if she cant hit him, or could use it before he activates it.

3rd law only takes into account objects in motion, but not magical levitation which was what Bayonetta defeated, true she directed where Temp fell. "strikes" assuming I was actually watching them do it, which I cannot if they have ported outside of my view. Imagine if a normal man was given the ability port like this and you knew he was going to use it (bay does not know Kain is) you could be looking all over the place yet as he ports he could tap you on the shoulder as you turn around, you cannot predict his movement even if your fast enough to react to it if you knew where it was going to come from. Why wont he get a hit in? being able to react to something fast does not mean you can consistently move and fight>the speed of said object, theres a big difference between reacting/moving out of the way of something and being at that somethings speed, for example a man can jump out of the way of a speeding car but he does not have to be the same speed as said car. Bay is never as fast as bullets while fighting.

Wheres that from? whats your logical deduction behind her strength being>the wraith blade? she has no comparison to the wraith blade, its a direct energy weapon powered by ages of souls you cant claim its strength is bested by her off the bat. Whers your numbers behind a slash of her Katana?

I dont know where you got 1000x from but its irrelevent when it lasts a few seconds in combat, not sure she can keep it up for longer durations, certainly not while fighting since it seems to go during long term engagements. Those are spells, I meant "charm" but both of those spells would be useful. Also when has bayonetta exhibited a mind beyond a human being exactly? if I recall her mental willpower is fairly low since by the end of the game shes crawling into the other eye and needs Jeanne to snap her out of it.

Again, what small cut? also wheres the "do more" coming from? your making the assumption her katana is equel to the wraith blade in weakening Kain, its well known Kain is weak to the wraith blade and its generally a powerful weapon, also Raziel has a PSI advantage in his claws so I am starting to wonder if Bayonettas strength will be enough, i may do some calcs as far as I can tomorrow. Whats this based on? purely on the assumption her katana/strength>>the wraith blade? or purely based on superior strength over Raziel? not sure she has a choice, she can only keep it up for a limited period and it seems to based around reactions/situations otherwise she would have it on in all battles. I wonder if her time powers are really very limited against actual opponents. Also assuming theres some distance between them shes going to have to get close enough to use it since I doubt it has infinite range (e.g. the whole world freezes in time).

Gameplay mechanic much?

I rememer it lasting a longer time in cutscenes btw.

I dont recall a cutscene where Bayonetta uses witch time for a long duration in combat. It does not make sense to me that it lasts long otherwise she would use it in far more battles/cutscenes, especially when shes fighting hard. She would use it constantly and in every situation if it was easy to have on.

Also I think manhandling Fortitudo (also a vid where she uses time powers for about a minute) is a better strength feat:

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It seems conssitent both in cutscenes and gameplay that the witch time works a lot longer against inanimate objects and when bayonetta is not actually fighting. Probably because of concentration.

The motion is Temp being knocked backwards, if it was the levitation was the only thing defeated then he would fall straight down. 3rd law accounts for that motion. Now imagine said 'porter is moving at most 10cm/s, 'cause with her reactions thats what Kain would be like. Dunno about you but I'd find it easy to perceive my surroundings before getting hit. Thats mostly true but if she can dodge a bullet at 30cm she can react to and dodge Kain at any distance.
Wraith is a strong weapon capable of physical damage BUT its unknown just how powerful it is. For fairness I'll say its a good deal above her swords which are above normal themselves, but the difference between them is (unless theres proof to how high its damage is) below the difference between Bay's strength and Raziels.

The cutscene where shes talking to some giant bird..thing, Fortitudo? The scenery is moving at 1/1,000th normal speed and yes, it is relevant as in those seconds to Kain she will be moving up to Mach 146 o-o...... Not that it lasts a few seconds as the cutscene shows it lasting much more. Wont work 'cause of this ''All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power.'' and this ''Allows Kain to control weak-minded humans.'' Bayonetta is neither weak-minded nor non-aggressive.

The one Raziel put on Kain, do more is from Wraith being above her blades but her strength being even higher then that to Raziel's. I'll find the cutscene later, even though it'd be easier for someone like you who has played the game to find it >.< but meh, only limitation is other beings that can use or enter Witch Time. Range unknown, cant be said its more than 1km as much as it cant be said that its less than 100m. Unknown.

----------------------
Temp feat > Fort feat for strength.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The motion is Temp being knocked backwards, if it was the levitation was the only thing defeated then he would fall straight down. 3rd law accounts for that motion. Now imagine said 'porter is moving at most 10cm/s, 'cause with her reactions thats what Kain would be like. Dunno about you but I'd find it easy to perceive my surroundings before getting hit. Thats mostly true but if she can dodge a bullet at 30cm she can react to and dodge Kain at any distance.
Wraith is a strong weapon capable of physical damage BUT its unknown just how powerful it is. For fairness I'll say its a good deal above her swords which are above normal themselves, but the difference between them is (unless theres proof to how high its damage is) below the difference between Bay's strength and Raziels.

The cutscene where shes talking to some giant bird..thing, Fortitudo? The scenery is moving at 1/1,000th normal speed and yes, it is relevant as in those seconds to Kain she will be moving up to Mach 146 o-o...... Not that it lasts a few seconds as the cutscene shows it lasting much more. Wont work 'cause of this ''All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power.'' and this ''Allows Kain to control weak-minded humans.'' Bayonetta is neither weak-minded nor non-aggressive.

The one Raziel put on Kain, do more is from Wraith being above her blades but her strength being even higher then that to Raziel's. I'll find the cutscene later, even though it'd be easier for someone like you who has played the game to find it >.< but meh, only limitation is other beings that can use or enter Witch Time. Range unknown, cant be said its more than 1km as much as it cant be said that its less than 100m. Unknown.

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Temp feat > Fort feat for strength.

Assuming she could actually visually react at that speed which is not evident but if she could, your still underestimating the fact that reaction is not the same as actual movement, or precog. Reacting and dealing with something thats at about 0.05 seconds speed and surprising you is not easy even if you could typically react to the actual "attack" part but not the "surprise".

We know its power deals more damage to kains body than about half a million tonnes based on the PSi resistance Kain has to Raziels claw tip expanded to a square foot. The Wraith blade contacts and damages Kains entire abdomen iirc off hte top of my head which is more than that but its an incredible amount of power. Bayonetta's slash could never compare.

Ill have to see it ,as well as the "frames" and calculations behind the 1/1000th since its hard to imagine. Your playing on gameplay mechanics, the weak-minded part was refering to nosgoth elite/patricians who are by no means less educated than simple grunts and thugs from the sewers who you cannot control due to gameplay. The actually ability Kain gains is from marcus who can indeed mind control. Also show me Bayonetta's willpower feat then please.

Shes using a thicker, longer blade. She will be lucky to do more than pierce Kain with a wound he can ignore/regen from almost instantly. So we can only go by what we have seen, which is closer to 10-50 meters which is the distance some of the platforms shes come across cover.

Well we know she can as we've seen her do it, another example is against Jeanne where she only moved when the bullet was 4 inches from her face. Dodging Kain from 1m is like dodging a bullet from 62m, even with his 'he's behind you!' style she'll have plenty of time. Actually with an attack of 0.05 he'd have to strike from 4millimeters from Bay to equal her bullet timing.

By my calcs Bay is around 3,000x stronger than Raziel, so Wraith will have to be 3kx more powerful then Raz's claws for Bayonetta's slashes to 'not compare'. To note, a normal sword < Shuraba < Pillow Talk, Raz's his claws are around normal sword level right? And isn't Shuraba descried as a soul sucker too?

Falling speed of the rocks is 10~m/s, with Witch Time they were moving 1~cm/s. Thats a thousandth the speed. And for range check 0:04 and look at the rocks at the top, more than 100m high. Is Kain's range over this gap?

Not game'mechs, quotes. Which are > game'mechs. Weak-minded ones may be argued somewhat but not that those viewing Kain as an enemy wont be Charmed by him. And just because Marcus can do something doesnt mean Kain can, ''The Dark Gifts manifest differently in each of us.'' ~Marcus to Kain, BO2, or that Kain remains stationary a whilst using it.

Damn you edit..

''Blood Omen 2 (...) It is the fourth game in the Legacy of Kain series. Although chronologically it is set between the events of Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, the events of the game did not occur in the original history, and only took place in Nosgoth's history due to a paradoxical time-altering event which took place in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 which distorted the timeline''
Doesn't that mean that Defiance Kain didn't cannonly didn't get Immolate, Berserk, Fury or Charm? (Not that it changes anything in the thread as neither are useful, just curious.)

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Just to give something, I heard that Kain dodged a handgonne(hand-cannon) in a cutscene. If so this would give him half-supersonic reaction times and depending on the type and distance could be considered supersonic to some degree. So If you know of this scene post, it'd help Kains reactions.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Well we know she can as we've seen her do it, another example is against Jeanne where she only moved when the bullet was 4 inches from her face. Dodging Kain from 1m is like dodging a bullet from 62m, even with his 'he's behind you!' style she'll have plenty of time. Actually with an attack of 0.05 he'd have to strike from 4millimeters from Bay to equal her bullet timing.

By my calcs Bay is around 3,000x stronger than Raziel, so Wraith will have to be 3kx more powerful then Raz's claws for Bayonetta's slashes to 'not compare'. To note, a normal sword < Shuraba < Pillow Talk, Raz's his claws are around normal sword level right? And isn't Shuraba descried as a soul sucker too?

Falling speed of the rocks is 10~m/s, with Witch Time they were moving 1~cm/s. Thats a thousandth the speed. And for range check 0:04 and look at the rocks at the top, more than 100m high. Is Kain's range over this gap?

Not game'mechs, quotes. Which are > game'mechs. Weak-minded ones may be argued somewhat but not that those viewing Kain as an enemy wont be Charmed by him. And just because Marcus can do something doesnt mean Kain can, ''The Dark Gifts manifest differently in each of us.'' ~Marcus to Kain, BO2, or that Kain remains stationary a whilst using it.

We know she can react but your reactions work using both sound, movement and vibrations etc. You dont have to see something to react to it so your belief that she actually sees the bullets moving towards her is not necesserily evident. Thats not a problem, infact looking outside of the box I would not be surprised if he could teleport his sword into her unless she was constantly running.

Where are you getting the 10,000 tons from? I dont belive Temp is 10k tons in weight, how are you getting this weight? yes but Raziels claws took Kain at a tip while your talking about slashing, meaning a large surface area of the sword is going to contact Kain which is why shes going to have to produce well over half a million tons of force to do the same damage the wraith blade did to kain. Based on numbers I doubt shes going to get to that high a figuire. Yes it sucks souls or so it claims but that does not make it similiar to the wraith blade.

It would seem canonically Bayonettas witch time power may not even affect living entities and only inanimate objects based on the fact Fortitudo was unaffected by the witch time. I am curious since your researching it at the moment is there an actual video of living entities being frozen in witch time? Range of what?

Its a game mechanic that he cannot charm "guards" and "thugs", the excuse in-game was that he could not control the weak minded but clearly a sewer thug or bandit is not going to be any more intelligent/trained against mental powers than artistocracy, infact it could be argued their greatly more at risk. It does when Kain absorbs his veins, Marcus was refering to "dark gifts" in general which is the power every vampire has but Kain can "steal" other dark gifts so hes taken what already manifested in Sebastion, Marcus, Faustus etc. This includes the ability to command "human" level minds. Kain remains stationary yes thats true...



Originally posted by BloodRain
Damn you edit..

''Blood Omen 2 (...) It is the fourth game in the Legacy of Kain series. Although chronologically it is set between the events of Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, the events of the game did not occur in the original history, and only took place in Nosgoth's history due to a paradoxical time-altering event which took place in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 which distorted the timeline''
Doesn't that mean that Defiance Kain didn't cannonly didn't get Immolate, Berserk, Fury or Charm? (Not that it changes anything in the thread as neither are useful, just curious.)

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Just to give something, I heard that Kain dodged a handgonne(hand-cannon) in a cutscene. If so this would give him half-supersonic reaction times and depending on the type and distance could be considered supersonic to some degree. So If you know of this scene post, it'd help Kains reactions.


Its hard to explain but what that means is that Kain suddenly gains the experiances, memories etc when he pulls the reaver out of Raziel because it creates this new history. You would be correct if you were refering to Soul reaver 1 Kain to some degreem but the developers have already said that the characters are mistaken concerning their effects on time, because little do they know the events "would always" happen that way even if they belive they made it happen from traveling through time.

I cannot remember off the top of my head, the Demon hunters use those sorts of weapons but I think Raziel fights them more than anything .Ill have a look at it, but I dont think theres an actual cutscene.

UYpLOAkOQ1A&playnext=1&list=PL9F0F21B4C9F6D5A0

9.40 Used on Bayonetta herself ironically.

Thats not witch time, thats lightspeed. The lumen sages use different powers and Balder is arguably vastly more powerful than Bayonetta showing as how easily he did that to her. You could attempt to argue that witch time is the same as lightspeed but only generally, theres only simularities in function that can be compared not practical use.

Bayonetta's Witch time as lame as it is, is fairly haxxed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg2EPhzLc0s

At around the 32 sec mark she activates it and the dude can be seen climbing towards the helicopter. She has an entire boss fight and after it ends he can still be seen climbing up in the same position while she was already in the helicopter.


However, explaining how she was able to surf on water with physics stopped is another matter entirely. lolbayonetta.

hm strange, not sure what was actually frozen because the waves were not, the angel boss was not. The human was so it seems not all physical objects can be stopped, certainly not on a large scale (the sea) but human level beings can be frozen, unless of course she killed that boss so fast canonically that she was able to get up there before they did which a guy on that link also observed. Maybe theres a lot of things Witch time cannot work on at once.

I am not sure if witch time was evident at all actually since not even the piecies in the cutscene that the creature knocks out of the water were frozen despite being shown to be able to freeze rocks with the witch time so it seems more likely she defeated it and got to the copter before they could get in although the witch time spell glyph in the air would say otherwise so the whole scene is pretty confusing.

^That wasnt Witch Time, when its active we get that purple effect around the screen.

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Demonstrated in the vid Neph posted Bay had neither sound or vibration and only sight when time went back to normal, sight being the only thing she could have used to dodge in that scene. Hm, dont think he can teleport into things, like how Nightcrawler doesn't 'port into things as it would kill him instead of letting his mass take its place. One or the other but cant be proven as a feat.

If Temp's body was a 1m thick shell it would be 6k tons, but this is very unlikely so I used 10k as the the minimum for what he could actually be if most of it was hollow. The difference from stab to slash isnt so significant to assume that Raz's strength+claw point = Bay's strength with blade slash. In most slashes only about 2in of the blade connects to the flesh, the number difference of point and slash with the power increase from the Wraith is still < Bay's strength and Pillow Talk. That is unless you were to use the whole length of the blade and somehow find a way to say how much stronger the Wraith is from normal blades.

Neph covered this. Also in some scene in Witch Time we see a car and people in it to be effected. Some angels in her verse are unaffected or something, cant remember the what it said. Range of anything if he hopes not to be caught in its effects.

And the enemy part? Charm doesn't seem to work when the target is agro. Last time I checked Marcus didnt use all his power and concentration to do so unlike Kain who ''could be seen from the NPC's point of view as closing his eyes and holding his fingers to his temples'' so its not the same as how Marcus does it.

The Angel not being frozen is just it showing it is able to resist supernatural time stop tactics. However it can even have witch time activated against it in the fight.

I have no explanation for the water though, at all. I think that giant angel does have control over weather.

I think unless Kain has shown to not be affected by time manipulation that he would be fair game.

Originally posted by BloodRain
^That wasnt Witch Time, when its active we get that purple effect around the screen.

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Demonstrated in the vid Neph posted Bay had neither sound or vibration and only sight when time went back to normal, sight being the only thing she could have used to dodge in that scene. Hm, dont think he can teleport into things, like how Nightcrawler doesn't 'port into things as it would kill him instead of letting his mass take its place. One or the other but cant be proven as a feat.

If Temp's body was a 1m thick shell it would be 6k tons, but this is very unlikely so I used 10k as the the minimum for what he could actually be if most of it was hollow. The difference from stab to slash isnt so significant to assume that Raz's strength+claw point = Bay's strength with blade slash. In most slashes only about 2in of the blade connects to the flesh, the number difference of point and slash with the power increase from the Wraith is still < Bay's strength and Pillow Talk. That is unless you were to use the whole length of the blade and somehow find a way to say how much stronger the Wraith is from normal blades.

Neph covered this. Also in some scene in Witch Time we see a car and people in it to be effected. Some angels in her verse are unaffected or something, cant remember the what it said. Range of anything if he hopes not to be caught in its effects.

And the enemy part? Charm doesn't seem to work when the target is agro. Last time I checked Marcus didnt use all his power and concentration to do so unlike Kain who ''could be seen from the NPC's point of view as closing his eyes and holding his fingers to his temples'' so its not the same as how Marcus does it.

Why only sight when sound and vibration was also evident? bullets make vibration in the air and still make noise while in motion so considering her high reactions she does not actually have to see them, kinda like how she dodged Jeanne, she does not actually move until their near her meaning some "gap" where she could not react. Well thats arguable you see kains not actually teleporting into her, hes teleporting his sword iinto her in my example and his swords path is what he was through/into her anyway. All kains doing when teleporting is making his mass (and that of his sword) fill a certain area elseware and extremely quickly too so her speed would be the only thing stopping him.

What material are you saying he is? because part of him could be marble, some ceramic, pausoline or w/e its called. It is when you considering Raziels clawpoint only has to penetrate an area of 1mm squared by your calculation that I have (it may be less than that) wheras bayonettas slash wil be covering the square area of whatever the whole flat side of her sword is aiming at which could be 10-100x that if not more than what raziel failed to pierce. Well as I said, half a million to a million tonnes more power because the wraith blade hit his entire abdomen.

It seems at best only normal human beings are effected and only some piecies of the environment. Anything more complicated and it either fails or simply cannot effect it. I would like to see actual people being affected, Balder using light speed is not equel to Bayonetta using witch time imo.

Theres no lore specific reason for this, if anything its a player observation based on the gameplay I dont think Kain gives a reason for it, not sure why being angry or aggresive would increase your mental strength. Again thats just a gameplay limit so you cannot just MC all your enemies. So kain uses more concentration than marcus when mind controlling, what does that prove? it does not prove that Kains power or gift is any less, only that to bring it to bear he needs to work harder at it. To be fair I am not surprised, hes only just got the power wheras Marcus has had it and developed it for years.

It wasn't sound as any decent gun fires above Mach 1, and wasn't vibrations as they appear in the trail of the bullet. Teleporting mass into mass has several implications and in any case I remember the user had to have become intangible first. This is a strategy theory that needs more evidence than the character can produce.
Marble makes it 6,300 tons, using all ceramic makes it 4,900 tons with porcelain making 5,900. In fact using the density of bottle cork gives us 600 tons. Due to the speed it could be the same weight as the LoKObelisk and the feat will still be 200x stronger.

Not a big fan of PSI, too many variables and doubt it follows through into games... The area of Raziel's claw tip is 0.0016 in2, for both thats 0.0032 in2. The S.Reaver's cutting area is 0.16in2 using a 4in*0.04in cutting area. (from the length of the curved part of the blade that makes contact) 0.16/0.0032=50x the psi of his claws. This may give it the cutting force over Shuraba (a little less compared to Pillow Talk) but Bay has the advantage of having 6,000 times the strength behind the blade. You may wish to argue that because the claws did't leave the damage the cut did that the S.Reaver's difference should be much higher, if you do we can the double/triple the difference though then we may as well stop using the absolute minimum for Bay's strength, though I don't think you'll like the results. Btw where does Raziel's claws tearing into Kain's chest fit into his durability?

Only some angels are not effected, everyone/thing else is slowed down.
Its like Izaya says, the hardest ones to manipulate are the stupid and the angry. Power wise an unfocused calm mind is easier swayed than a focused mad one. Its not a perfect mind control. It proves that his power is not as good as Marcus' so its only natural that he'd have some trouble on a resisting mind.

Originally posted by BloodRain
It wasn't sound as any decent gun fires above Mach 1, and wasn't vibrations as they appear in the trail of the bullet. Teleporting mass into mass has several implications and in any case I remember the user had to have become intangible first. This is a strategy theory that needs more evidence than the character can produce.
Marble makes it 6,300 tons, using all ceramic makes it 4,900 tons with porcelain making 5,900. In fact using the density of bottle cork gives us 600 tons. Due to the speed it could be the same weight as the LoKObelisk and the feat will still be 200x stronger.

Not a big fan of PSI, too many variables and doubt it follows through into games... The area of Raziel's claw tip is 0.0016 in2, for both thats 0.0032 in2. The S.Reaver's cutting area is 0.16in2 using a 4in*0.04in cutting area. (from the length of the curved part of the blade that makes contact) 0.16/0.0032=50x the psi of his claws. This may give it the cutting force over Shuraba (a little less compared to Pillow Talk) but Bay has the advantage of having 6,000 times the strength behind the blade. You may wish to argue that because the claws did't leave the damage the cut did that the S.Reaver's difference should be much higher, if you do we can the double/triple the difference though then we may as well stop using the absolute minimum for Bay's strength, though I don't think you'll like the results. Btw where does Raziel's claws tearing into Kain's chest fit into his durability?

Only some angels are not effected, everyone/thing else is slowed down.
Its like Izaya says, the hardest ones to manipulate are the stupid and the angry. Power wise an unfocused calm mind is easier swayed than a focused mad one. Its not a perfect mind control. It proves that his power is not as good as Marcus' so its only natural that he'd have some trouble on a resisting mind.

Yes but the bullets were not coming at Bay from a gun, but from Balders hand/manipulations. I dont know what your trying to claim here, Kain can teleport, he teleports near enough so that his blade is inside bay or less than mm away or w/e takes his fancy. And what was your assumed thickness of his outer shell?

A lot of things dont follow through into games, like the durability of an oil tanker apprently. The wraith blade barely has a cutting area since the energy around the blade or the souls create a sort of hue that deals damage rather than slices. Shuraba would have at least two square inches (or two inches/mm squared) of blade hitting Kain which means she would be doing as much as 1200x less (about 600+ mm squared in a square inch) damage than the tip of Raziels claw PSIwise before strength is considered. Bay cannot/has not shown the ability to produce the power required to do more than a thrusting impact with her blade (her strength+similiar action to Raziel), she would fail if she had raziels strength but if she has more then even if she pierces, a stab or even 100 of those size wounds cannot bother Kain.

No it doesnt, it proves he needs more concentration to bring to bare his power, the power is still the same hes just not used to it like Marcus is. If he had less power then he would be stuck trying to MC animals or something basic than a human mind. We dont have a resisting mind, Bay has never even encounted such an attack and would be MCed before she even knew what was happening to resist, its not like Kain takes any time to actually take control.

Given the speed the fastest thing after un-pausing would be the bullets I doubt it. Teleporting into someone needs proof of it happening, he can appear close but the one thing he doesn't want to do in get into close combat. Assumed thickness of only 1m ya can't get more generous with this figure. Note if there are complaints about my ground-rolling lowball shell number of 6-10,000 tons, I could just use the solid body number at around 70,000 tons instead.

1200? Raz' area is 0.0032, 2in of a blade will have an area of 0.08. Makes Bay's blade 25x the area, still nothing compared to the strength difference. Wait, what can't she do? All she has to do is stab him a few time, her strength allows damage. What more is that due to the speed difference she'll be able to get more hits on Kain then the single slash that harmed him. So yeah, where does Raziel's claws tearing into Kain's chest fit into his durability?

Marcus can still move around when controlling, obviously Kain isn't at his level. Any mind that's fighting back is resisting, like in-game 'enemies'. It specifically states this, so there needs to be some evidence to contradict this.

Why? all hes doing is teleporting, theres no special reason why he would need extra evidence to teleport closer? Can you show me a still image of Temp next to something for scale? because hes not that big, I feel like his weight is being put at a value higher than it should be. The oil tanker covered a large part of his body and an oil tanker made up of steel, engine etc only weghs a few tonnes.

Each claw is a seperate point, you cant add them together like their a single blade edge, and were talking squares, theres 600+ square millimters (640+) in a square inch, you would have to multiply the millitmeters her blade is touching. Raziels claws penetratd Kain after the wraith blade weakened him, the wraith blades power bypassed and wounded millions of tonnes of durability in one form or another.

At his level of concentation no, but Kain does not have to move around while controlling since hes against one opponent here. Show me where it specifically states their "fighting back" I dont recall please? and then show me how bayonetta is going to be "fighting back"?

I meant the teleport into people thing. Pause when the lorry hits Temp. The red cab part is over 3m, whole length being 15m, making the circle 15m. Here we can see that that height is over twice the size of the circle, H=40m. The width and length are between half and as long as the height. W/L=30m. Ellipsoid surface area x1m thick shell is 10,000 tons (34733025.77324*100cm=3473302577.324*2.6=9030586700g=9954tons) with a solid body gives 54,000 tons. (18849555921.53876*2.6=49008845400g=54023tons) The volume of Temp is 80x that of the obelisk.

But he hits Kain with both claws, so spread over both points. ? 2in(blade length)*0.04in(1mm)=0.08in2 compared to the 0.0032in2 of Raziel's. Well here we see the vertical wound where Raz plunged his fist in with the horizontal cut left from the Reaver. As you can see the part where the blade cuts hardly touches the part where he was clawed, the main pressure would be towards the top. So the slash didn't really help get the claw in.

The part where it states that it only works on non-aggressive people.

I know, what evidence do you think I would need to suggest Kain can teleport? when you know he can? The whole vehichle nearly covers half of its body, Temp is probably about as thick as the vehicle is long, give or take. And for those numbers your assumption is that the shell is 100% marble? Also large portions of the front of Temp are stained glass. Wouldnt be surprised if a lot of Temp are simply mosaics and ornamental materials since thats what he looks like.

So thats 2 inches of blade, e..g the tip of her Katana but shoving the tip through kain wont do much at all and pressure is spread in a "square" area so it would still be 2 square inches roughly of force in square millitmerers, that would be hundreds of times Raziels PSI area hence why the point of a blade (like a rapier, or a pin) has more PSI than the edge.

That does not mean their mentally fighting anything, or aware of what Kain is doing. Its just a gameplay mechanic, can you show me the actual video where it says aggressive people cannot be charmed?

For starters you have no idea if teleporting solid mass into a solid mass would make the first one form solid in the second of vise versa. This can only be answered by demonstration. Full height, including he curved part above the circle, is around 2.6x the portion of circle the lorry matches up to. The lorry is barely half the width and length at the top, and larger at the bottom. Glass, ornaments, mosaics and such are added to the outside, not the inside. You realizes the generosity of allowing your assumption of it being a shell right? I'm allowing for less than 1/5th of the full weight and now ya wanna make the density less? Harsh BT, harsh. Guess if we're being picky I could always suggest that flipping < lifting, maybe even say that the obelisk is hollow and use it bouncing up as proof. Both would severely reduce the feat.

That does not mean their mentally fighting anything, or aware of what Kain is doing. Its just a gameplay mechanic, can you show me the actual video where it says aggressive people cannot be charmed? Only 25x the area of Raziel's two points, less with Pillow Talk.

Thats not the area. To get the sword area thats connecting to the body you times the length by the width . 0.08in2 is the square area that the pressure is spread over. I wouldn't think that quotes like 'weak minded' and 'non-aggressive' are game'mechs.. Description says it doesn't work on aggressive/non-weak minded foes, gameplay shows this has failed to work on non-humans like Vampires(?) and Sarafan. Would like to see clips of it working on foes that are prepared (about to attack Kain) and on non-humans.

Why would it not? why would either masses change? all thats happening is space is being moved/changed, not mass or other variables, Kain can do that, its not like I am saying Kain can teleport inside her body, hes teleporting a part of his weapon that he would intend to be inside her anyway, not that its necessery he could just teleport 1mm away from her or something with the blade at her head. Not really as its a living entity, not a building or an object and the density would be less, I think you underestimate the generosity of me letting it drop that an oil tanker, angel etc can easily take the force bayonetta knocked Temp down with due to the fact the force required to pierce a thin metal piece or damage an oil tanker would be barely tonnes. The obelisk bouncing would not make it hollow, only that the ground it hit was fairly dense as well. I disagree still in the claim that it shows great strength that she knocked him down anyway, as I said all you have to do is break his propulsion, to knock a plane out of the sky you just have to break its engines not defeat the weight of the plane so taking into account the vast amount of evidence suggesting not much actual force was used (oil tanker, angel, speed of tanker and distance of it hitting temp etc) its not "harsh" to belive it being a poor feat, fortitudo imo is better.

Thats not how you get PSI however, pressure does not just stop where an object touches thats why its pounds square inch. What description? I dont remember a description for the power myself, all I know is what Marcus can do and that Kain took that Dark gift which is how it works. The hylden witch can TK, therefore Kain can tk when he takes her gift (shes not a vampire so its not a dark gift ut you get the picture), Sebastion can move very fast, so can Kain after he takes the gift, Faustus has super jump, Magnus has the power to mentally explode things etc. The only indication that Kain cannot mind control an agressor is because you cannot MC actual enemies in the game, only civilions, thats a mechanic like how Kratos cant just pull apart every enemy he comes across. I could probably go through hundreds of games if I had the time and patience explaining how some powers have limits in gameplay due to balance/fun. You wouldnt argue Kains sword as weak and blunt just because he cant slash sarafan in half in gameplay would you?

Because its transporting solid mass into solid mass, his port would need to show the ability of displacing solid material on entrance. Its like Nightcrawler's sense to not to port into things for fear of death. If you mean porting very close to her then thats fine.

Density of marble is just under 2.6, density of a human is 1, density of a hollow 1m thick shell is 0.5. So really what I should be doing is using a mix of human and marble density of 1.7 to give the weight of 35,322 tons. <- 35k is the new number being used unless evidence of it being hollow can be provided aka 20,000raz. Questions gameplay physics like that will get you nowhere, so ya not really letting anything slide more as its not really up for question. Also it appears that no logic was in the conclusion that ''it didnt pierce the metal but it knocked Temp back, so Temp must be hollow and light''. Yep, itd mean that the force of it falling came back into the obelisk on impact and pushed it back up, something it couldn't do if it was that dense. 1) Breaking the propulsion would send him from a stationary position vertically down, not horizontal. The thing is that he wouldnt of been sent flying without the... 2) Newtons First and Third law of motion. No wheres that vast amount of proof?

'Pounds per square inch' In this case pounds being the weight/strength they're at and square inch being the in2 I just showed you. The 'pounds' being 20,000x in Bays favour with the 'square inch' being in 25x in Raz's favour.
''All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power.'' ''Allows Kain to control weak-minded humans.'' being that. Besides Marcus's being on a higher level (as he had a much longer time to develop them) theres the thing that not only has Kain not been shown to do so to prove that he can, but afaik Marcus hasn't done so either. Kratos cant rip anything apart in the game, the Reaver cant one-shot a human in the game and Dante cant move at hypersonic in the game, Akuma cant sink an island with a punch in the game... Difference is that we have cutscenes etc that prove that they can do it outside of game'mechs. This has no cutscenes, no showings and statements against it. Aggressive, weak minded and Sarafan 'may' be considered game'mechs, but proof of this is required.

No its not because A: Bayonetta is not solid, shes no more solid than Kain and B: why would it displace? that does not make sense. And he does teleport into things iirc, but this is not Kain teleporting "into" someone its his sword through his aid. It would meet the same end.

Not sure thats correct, just getting a comrpomise betwee nthe two densities, we dony even know its marble and since he simply looks like decoration its not likely, you dont often make a decorative object out of marble, then add outer decoration like stain glass. I am letting it all slide, because I am charitable, you cant just ignore it because it does not fit well for your argument of incredible "strength" doing it, we see first hand the force is not enough to damage one small angel OR an oil tanker. You would just mean Raziels strength to be high enough, the force made by Raziel to launch it over would transfer into the ground as the obelisk falls, it coming back up would mean Raziel put too much force into it, not to mension the shape of an obelisk, the triangle tip may be just righting itself and being pulled back up by the heavier bottom. 1) not if theres an oil tanker knocking into him from the front...the object thats breaking his propulsion is coming from the front of him, hence why he goes backwards, your claim would require it to be above him OR for her to simply "turn" the propulsion off.

The force was equel to send a oil tanker (3-5 tonnes max? I dont know) from a few meters per second to about 10 meters per second, give or take without being too much to buckle/ damage it and the force from Bayonettas hands was not enough to kill the angel which iirc has been killed by less. You would have to calculate that force however since its your argument. Your using Temp but thats wrong, you only need the oil tanker, easier calculation as well since we know how much an oil tanker can weigh. We know that was enough to knock him off from his propulsion and send him the direction the tanker was sent.

I keep asking where are you getting this from? a gamers description because I dont recall it in the game, please show me. Its not about development as Kain has taken the gift directly from Marcus, theres no indication that absorbed gifts go back to their base power level otherwise Kain wouldnt be able to jump at exactly the same distance if not more so than Faustus has shown or would have difficulty Tking small objecets let alone complicated mechnisms from the hylden witch, Marcus' ability is the only one with this illogical limit (thugs from the sewer more protected/wary of metnal attacks than anyone else? ) other than perhaps Magnus' gift which does not allow you destroy all the surfaces in the game like he can wreck stone statues. Your trying to play on gameplay limitations and ignoring the story, how Kain gains powers etc to protect Bay from an easy MC.

...o.o yeah, she is. Humans are solid, water is liquid, air is gas. The basics. How can you teleport mass into mass without displacing the latter so that the former can now occupy that space?

It is, we know its living so not hollow and we know its made of a marble-like stone material. Dude, we dont know 'any' densities in our calcs, its called being sensible. Nah you have to let it slide because its wrong, not by choice. Nope, at that speed, angle and weight a 700 ton block would not bounce. Nor did the bottom part move so that last part makes no sense. Yet it still bounces.. light density and hollow then? What you described is the first&third law; the reason it was launched backwards is because the tanker pushed him. The reason the tanker pushed him is because the angel smacked it with force. The reason the angel smacked it with force is because Bayonetta threw it. You may want to look into Occam's razor as so far I'm stating that; 1) Partly made of stone and something as dense as flesh/water. 2) Bay's throw knocked it back. Your assumptions; 1) Made of a material thats lighter than rock. 2) Only some of the 'outer shell' is made of that, the rest is even lighter. 3) Its probably hollow. 4) The throw broke some propulsion system.. BR- 2 points, 2 visuals and an assumption. BT- 4 points, 5 assumptions. Youre trying to get Shakespeare from Snoopy..

Thats not how it works. To start the force that makes Temp move back must equal the force that hit him, from a single throw the energy wont suddenly increase. Take it from a guy that actually calcs original feats, you look at what the force of the throw achieved, and thats knocking Temp on his ass. And Occam's razor again, a bad assumption:evidence ratio.

''Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. pg15 (Eidos Interactive). (2002)'' The creators of the game them self. Its kinda obvious his isn't on the level of Marcus', if it was Kain would not have to focus all his effort and concentration, remain stationary and not being able to move when controlling one mind. If it was the same as Marcus' it would be executed like it. Anyhow, I'd rather see Kain.. even Marcus showing to be able to then accept theories. Evidence/facts > theories w/ proof > theories w/o proof. So would like to see it working on higher minds, non-humans and aggressors.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo2/darkgifts.php



http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Charm#cite_note-Charm_manual-1

"All non-aggressive characters can be charmed with this power. In Charm mode, Kain is able to take complete control of another character and move him or her around a certain distance. Press the Dark Gift button to enter Charm mode and...aim the cursor at the character you want to control. Once a character is selected, press the Dark Gift button again to Charm. Kain can use this power to make characters do things that would not normally be able to do."Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. pg15 (Eidos Interactive). (2002)

Originally posted by BloodRain
...o.o yeah, she is. Humans are solid, water is liquid, air is gas. The basics. How can you teleport mass into mass without displacing the latter so that the former can now occupy that space?

It is, we know its living so not hollow and we know its made of a marble-like stone material. Dude, we dont know 'any' densities in our calcs, its called being sensible. Nah you have to let it slide because its wrong, not by choice. Nope, at that speed, angle and weight a 700 ton block would not bounce. Nor did the bottom part move so that last part makes no sense. Yet it still bounces.. light density and hollow then? What you described is the first&third law; the reason it was launched backwards is because the tanker pushed him. The reason the tanker pushed him is because the angel smacked it with force. The reason the angel smacked it with force is because Bayonetta threw it. You may want to look into Occam's razor as so far I'm stating that; 1) Partly made of stone and something as dense as flesh/water. 2) Bay's throw knocked it back. Your assumptions; 1) Made of a material thats lighter than rock. 2) Only some of the 'outer shell' is made of that, the rest is even lighter. 3) Its probably hollow. 4) The throw broke some propulsion system.. BR- 2 points, 2 visuals and an assumption. BT- 4 points, 5 assumptions. Youre trying to get Shakespeare from Snoopy..

Thats not how it works. To start the force that makes Temp move back must equal the force that hit him, from a single throw the energy wont suddenly increase. Take it from a guy that actually calcs original feats, you look at what the force of the throw achieved, and thats knocking Temp on his ass. And Occam's razor again, a bad assumption:evidence ratio.

''Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 manual. pg15 (Eidos Interactive). (2002)'' The creators of the game them self. Its kinda obvious his isn't on the level of Marcus', if it was Kain would not have to focus all his effort and concentration, remain stationary and not being able to move when controlling one mind. If it was the same as Marcus' it would be executed like it. Anyhow, I'd rather see Kain.. even Marcus showing to be able to then accept theories. Evidence/facts > theories w/ proof > theories w/o proof. So would like to see it working on higher minds, non-humans and aggressors.

Only humans are a combination of those things. You act like its a seperate power, if Kain teleports into a space then that space is occupied by him, if an object is already there that changes nothing, in theory theres always an object there even if its gas particles and microbes.

Its not living like a human being is living and if it was its not solid, its not granite block solid is it..we know the densities of a cube of a material, thats how you get the calcs behind granite blocks. Wrong? you look at a game, dont like it as part of your claim so its wrong? The tanker chose the direction, the impact which was only a few tonnes, Tanker from a few m/s to 10+ m/s therefore breaking the limited propulsion. No your stating that; 1) Angels and Petrol tanker durability=bays strength=tens of thousands of tonnes ( illogical assumption, overall impossible), 2) Bays power had to equel Temps weight to send him flying (assumption) 3) the oil tanker has only slightly less weight than temp (illogical assumption), I am assuming its make up exactly the same as you are, theres no way around that since the game does not tell us, most of those "assumptions" that you labeled for me are not assumptions for example its 100% fact Temps propulsion that allows him to fly was defeated otherwise it would not have dropped to the ground, you dont seem to even recognise that Temp has some propulsion/levitation then?

Thats the thing, the energy does not increase...the weight of the tanker is propelled another few meters per second because its sped up, not enough to damage the tanker but enough to send it faster, but not thousands of tonnes fast...the difference is not that much at all tbh. The only calculation you really need i the one that can calculate how much force you need to send a few tonnes of oil tanker going from 10 m/s to 50-100 m/s.

As scenario has shown by the looks of it your reading through either player quotes on the ability rather than the games or an in-game execution, thats like me posting "for Dante to use DT he has to fill his devil gauge and press R1 and L1" (or w/e it was). As I said, gameplay mechanics/balance does not defeat the facts of the game which is that Kain takes the powers of those he absorbs the veins of, in this case Marcus. Why do you want to see it working on "higher" minds when theres not one present?

The first quote is from Dark Chronicle, a source you have used in the past, and one you have repeatedly linked to. The second quote was taken directly from the Blood Omen 2 instruction manual. The other two quotes are from an official strategy guide.

All of them state it only works on non-aggressive or weak minded humans. You have nothing that can dispute this.

I am not disputing the gameplay of the game, but I dont think this is a gameplay fight.....you cant argue using the controls/balance in a game.

Also theres almost nobody Kain fights in these threads that has more than human mental resistance anyway so its completly irrelevent. I have yet to be convinced Bayontetta has a "strong" mind or could defend herself against Kains influence do you?

Do you have anything to suggest that Charm does more than the gameplay or official canon statements say it does? If so, please present it.

Unless Bayonetta is specifically a "weak minded human," that's not going to be a problem. Do you have any evidence that she's weak minded?

Well it is if shes got no more feats of resistance than a weak minded human. I dont have feats that shes got any special resistance and the fact shes never faced enemies that get into her head suggest she has no mental resistance or ability to protect herself. You would also need to get a more specific classification of what "weak-minded" is because if you want to use gameplay mechanics, Kain not being able to MC the sewer thugs but able to do so to the aristocracy makes no sense is "intelligence" was how you gauged weak mindedness.

As for weak minded, she was fooled by Balder from the beginning and could not see past his scheme and even I could see the major resemblence between cereza and Bay from the get go.

Gas and water are easy to disperse, not solids.

Can we prove its solid? No. Can we prove its hollow? Even less so. Should we use a half the density to low ball? Sure, and so it was done. Granite? Marble, and I could hardly translate what you said after that O__o If you want to use wrong numbers at least use the correct wrong numbers.. A tanker that size full of gasoline weighs 50 ton. Not that anything you said was correct. 1) Nope, first two haven't even crossed my mind, those are your points.. remember? 2) Newtons laws of motions say hi~ 3) Lol pleeaaaassse quote me saying that the tankers weight is close to Temps, oh please do. <- Well that counter didn't go down so well. So it being hollow is a fact that you can prove? And you have proof saying that the density is light, right? Oh, and here I was thinking that Bay used telekinetic powers to keep Temp up the whole time... What you dont get that Newton says that the only reason Temp moved was due to the force that moved him. Even with your 'propulsion break' theory there would still need to be a large amount of force to send it flying that fast, the numbers you want wouldnt make it move horizontal at all.

No thats the calc you want, and being the logical calc fan that I am I just cant get myself to do faulty maths soz. And stop sharpening occams razor, the sheen is blinding me. Temp was knocked back and the only force to do so was from Bay's throw. Why do you hate simplicity in the opposition? Hm, Raz hits blocks and they slide across the ground... but thats impossible irl right? His fist should have really gone into it like the tanker. And a dense cube doesnt 'slide' across the ground.. so thats more reasons why the rocks are light in LoK. A 200 ton obelisk is easily possible if you want me to nitpick at it. I could make it hollow, make the density lighter and maybe take a 're-look' at it and see if the speed and dimensions are what I originally got all with 'logical assumptions' from the game. Nitpicking is fun...

Prima official guide and the manual written by the BO2 'creators'... You need more? And pray tell, which 'facts of the game' shows it working on aggros, non-weak minded and non-humans? "Do you have anything to suggest that Charm does more than the gameplay or official canon statements say it does? If so, please present it." This is literally the sole question required to prove its not a gameplay mechanic.. actually, the only thing that needs to be answered to end this.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Gas and water are easy to disperse, not solids.

Can we prove its solid? No. Can we prove its hollow? Even less so. Should we use a half the density to low ball? Sure, and so it was done. Granite? Marble, and I could hardly translate what you said after that O__o If you want to use wrong numbers at least use the correct wrong numbers.. A tanker that size full of gasoline weighs 50 ton. Not that anything you said was correct. 1) Nope, first two haven't even crossed my mind, those are your points.. remember? 2) Newtons laws of motions say hi~ 3) Lol pleeaaaassse quote me saying that the tankers weight is close to Temps, oh please do. <- Well that counter didn't go down so well. So it being hollow is a fact that you can prove? And you have proof saying that the density is light, right? Oh, and here I was thinking that Bay used telekinetic powers to keep Temp up the whole time... What you dont get that Newton says that the only reason Temp moved was due to the force that moved him. Even with your 'propulsion break' theory there would still need to be a large amount of force to send it flying that fast, the numbers you want wouldnt make it move horizontal at all.

No thats the calc you want, and being the logical calc fan that I am I just cant get myself to do faulty maths soz. And stop sharpening occams razor, the sheen is blinding me. Temp was knocked back and the only force to do so was from Bay's throw. Why do you hate simplicity in the opposition? Hm, Raz hits blocks and they slide across the ground... but thats impossible irl right? His fist should have really gone into it like the tanker. And a dense cube doesnt 'slide' across the ground.. so thats more reasons why the rocks are light in LoK. A 200 ton obelisk is easily possible if you want me to nitpick at it. I could make it hollow, make the density lighter and maybe take a 're-look' at it and see if the speed and dimensions are what I originally got all with 'logical assumptions' from the game. Nitpicking is fun...

Prima official guide and the manual written by the BO2 'creators'... You need more? And pray tell, which 'facts of the game' shows it working on aggros, non-weak minded and non-humans? "Do you have anything to suggest that Charm does more than the gameplay or official canon statements say it does? If so, please present it." This is literally the sole question required to prove its not a gameplay mechanic.. actually, the only thing that needs to be answered to end this.

Easy is a point of view...you seen to have staggered on that argument of how dispersing is important.

We cannot prove either of those for certain. I never said I knew the weight of oil tankers, I assume it also depends on the model of tanker also you dont seem to like being in the wrong, you get upset and snarky in your answers, relax 3) you pretty much did by claiming that an oil tanker+the extra speed from Bay>Temp weight, this is not only wrong but unecessery. I never said I had proof of those things, its just fact that he was under propulsion and as I said, you would have thought you were thinking that when you are argueing how me beliving propulsion was defeated was an assumption, when its pretty clear it was otherwise he would still be hovering why would there "have" to be a large amount of force? his propulsion is defeated and 50 tons+motion of about 100 m/s (probably nowhere near it but w/e) was enough to give it direction.

Faulty maths is claiming a oil tanker and a weak angel can take 30k tons of force based on a lack of knowledge of density, your backing behind the calc being "because its sensible".....he pushes them, its different and were using much lower numbers than your 30k+ for temp. Also, snarky, this is not going to convince me of your argument that Temps weight alone was defeated and its nothing to do with breaking his levitation. None of your desperate attempts at covering up the fact your twisting truth around an oil tankers durability and simple "levitation defeat" would make any sense, theres nothing much amiss with Raziels feats compared to Bayonettas.

That did not answer my counter, we know where your getting the gameplay mechanics from, I can look at it now if I wish. So far your counter argument to the argument that Kain can use the powers he took from Marcus to mind control bay is a hastily drawn conclusion based on some game mechanics. Your only real argument so far is to argue Kain is weaker to marcus due to the way he stands to "use" the ability.....

Youve not yet even attempted to argue how Bay has resistance or any mental strength beyond the humans Kain supposedly can only "control". You also bring up the laughable argument that Kain is not so proficient in the Dark gifts use due to Marcus having developed it, laughable because thats young Kain, the Kain bay is fightning now is thousands of years older than Marcus and if you know how vampire gifts work you know they evolve over time so if anything Kain is stronger than anything Marcus is.

Toooooooo muuuuuuch teeeeeeext.... belch

Mostly because there are points being brought up that dont need to be. You can probably make an argument about 1 small article that can finish the debate.

or if it goes on forever until its no longer interesting at least it does not take as much time.

Sorry Neph... BT started it >:

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..Wha? Teleport in and occupy a space, to do so you move anything that can be separated away form where its entering. Solid mass doesn't separate. In other words, needs proof.

Exactly, so using the middle ground is the logical choice. Upset? lolno. However I may get snarky when people ignore events with a mass of illogical ideas to discredit the feat just for me to repeat basic things over and over again. (lightning feat for its fullwankery, 15 pages of repetition in different colours with carver and maybe Quanchi's 'portrayals') So sorry if I'm waiting for people to stop ignoring things just so their character can win a debate <-< >-> Nup, force to knock Temp back = Force generated by Bay, its the basic way we gather feats here. Well something that is proven is that he wouldnt have moved that far back at that speed without the necessary force to move that bulk at that speed.
Guys who dont get the maths have no leg to stand on. Did my calcs mention those two things? No, those are again your point that are to do with things other than the feat. Im not trying to convince you, I know some people don't like to concede so will instead state the closest things to facts and hope the person can understand. How about a deal then, you accept that the her best feat is the tanker and I accept that the obelisk weights 200 tons based on light density, hollow parts etc? Loving the 'upset' 'desperate' and ' twisting' remarks when its only after I get the figures that there must be a fault with it. Like how the weight of Temp was in high demand until there was no way for it to get lighter so other reasons had to be made.
Look, not matter how much you try to reduce this feat its still going to be between hundreds to thousands times the strength of Raziel thus more damage then what he can do with the Reaver. Seeing why not just agree with my middle ground 35k tons or low-ball/shell 10k tons.

Yeah I'll get round to that when you answer the question and provide evidence. Please don't avoid it in the next post

So, again, you have no proof of Kain affecting average minded or aggressive people with Charm? Further, you want us to prove than aggressor to Kain will not be affected, despite the fact that we already did this? The quote says non-aggressive people or those whose minds are specifically noted to be weak. Bayonetta is neither of these things.

^and non-humans. Doesn't work on Sarafan either.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sorry Neph... BT started it >:

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..Wha? Teleport in and occupy a space, to do so you move anything that can be separated away form where its entering. Solid mass doesn't separate. In other words, needs proof.

Exactly, so using the middle ground is the logical choice. Upset? lolno. However I may get snarky when people ignore events with a mass of illogical ideas to discredit the feat just for me to repeat basic things over and over again. (lightning feat for its fullwankery, 15 pages of repetition in different colours with carver and maybe Quanchi's 'portrayals') So sorry if I'm waiting for people to stop ignoring things just so their character can win a debate <-< >-> Nup, force to knock Temp back = Force generated by Bay, its the basic way we gather feats here. Well something that is proven is that he wouldnt have moved that far back at that speed without the necessary force to move that bulk at that speed.
Guys who dont get the maths have no leg to stand on. Did my calcs mention those two things? No, those are again your point that are to do with things other than the feat. Im not trying to convince you, I know some people don't like to concede so will instead state the closest things to facts and hope the person can understand. How about a deal then, you accept that the her best feat is the tanker and I accept that the obelisk weights 200 tons based on light density, hollow parts etc? Loving the 'upset' 'desperate' and ' twisting' remarks when its only after I get the figures that there must be a fault with it. Like how the weight of Temp was in high demand until there was no way for it to get lighter so other reasons had to be made.
Look, not matter how much you try to reduce this feat its still going to be between hundreds to thousands times the strength of Raziel thus more damage then what he can do with the Reaver. Seeing why not just agree with my middle ground 35k tons or low-ball/shell 10k tons.

Yeah I'll get round to that when you answer the question and provide evidence. Please don't avoid it in the next post

Of course solid mass seperates, it just takes greater temperature or more force and Kain has the force by far, you would only have grounds to say he cannot if bayonetta had ridiculous durability.

Exactly your snarky and no not really, finding a compramise is better. Yes I get annoyed when people "ignore" events....like piecies of a game/feat they dont like see what I am getting at? do you ever wonder if your ignoring things and annoying people the way your annoyed by them? how do you know? we dont "really" know his weight, only the deductions from "sensible" (in your opinion) math (made by you) but from what we actually see it only requires the force equel to a speeding oil tanker to knock him down.

Heres my math for you to pick apart on the trucks movement+energy, rough numbers used since we dont know all of the numbers but I got the weight of a filled truck from answerbag, I justified the distance by looking at the truck at its furthest from Temp in the vid and use dits own length/dimensions (also from answer bag of a large truck like our one here) to estimate its distance from temp:



She has nothing to damage Kain with.


I have avoided nothing, you keep trying to use quotes from gameplay balance to claim Kain cannot do something, which is ridiculous since a lot of game characters cannot do feats in gameplay that their capable of. Evidence suggests Kain gains the power of those he absorbs, your claim earlier was that Kain was not as developed as marcus, well the Kain in this thread is thousands of years more evolved than marcus since he gained this power not that I belive you had a case before. as I said, I dont need to provide evidence of how incredible Kain is at mind control if his target has no real mental protection.

Edit: Looking back I realise you had already calculated Bayonettas swords area, and had the weight of the tanker at about the same. jolly good show.

Nothing to do with teleporting. How can physical force be counted in teportation?

Seeing as I'd rather take the simpler options, the kind of feat that we use here all the time, than a complex one requiring more assumptions. So no, not ignoring, its doing what we always for. Well... don't really care about peoples opinions in a debate so who cares. Only thing is the topic, where I follow the simple, logical and most likely for the verse. Not like anyone else was gonna get the weight, which is the only thing in question.

Well thats if we go and assume that she doesn't have the strength to move Temp. Though personally Id use the results that Occam and Newton suggest. Also find it odd how you give her a strength 60x Raz' while her area is 25x his yet its classed as a inferior feat. While we're here, did you give an answer about Kains durability as Raziel was able to rip into his chest? Because the place the Reaver cut didnt cause the entry wound of his fist/claws, so it was all Raziel.

Official quotes say he cant, gameplay says he cant, no scene or anything else says he can besides what you think he can do.. so yeah, gonna need some evidence as so far all we've had is opinions. A cutscene would be nice.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Nothing to do with teleporting. How can physical force be counted in teportation?

Seeing as I'd rather take the simpler options, the kind of feat that we use here all the time, than a complex one requiring more assumptions. So no, not ignoring, its doing what we always for. Well... don't really care about peoples opinions in a debate so who cares. Only thing is the topic, where I follow the simple, logical and most likely for the verse. Not like anyone else was gonna get the weight, which is the only thing in question.

Well thats if we go and assume that she doesn't have the strength to move Temp. Though personally Id use the results that Occam and Newton suggest. Also find it odd how you give her a strength 60x Raz' while her area is 25x his yet its classed as a inferior feat. While we're here, did you give an answer about Kains durability as Raziel was able to rip into his chest? Because the place the Reaver cut didnt cause the entry wound of his fist/claws, so it was all Raziel.

Official quotes say he cant, gameplay says he cant, no scene or anything else says he can besides what you think he can do.. so yeah, gonna need some evidence as so far all we've had is opinions. A cutscene would be nice.

An objects physical mass/force is still constant even if its not moving, if desnest/strongest object that fills a space is the most dominant.

Your not making anything simple, your making your feat sound better because trying to deduce the weight of Temp based on size and materials would take so many assumptions more than simply doing what I just did, calculate the energy in the moving Tanker which gives you what it requires to knock down Temp, you still confuse weight required to move an object with the weight required to knock an object off something such as propulsion. if you dont care about peoples opinions then why did you complain about them in the last post? Everyone claims that so trying to pretend your always more logical and giving the most likely answer is pointless.

She moved temp with the energy from her+oil tanker, so were not assuming anything, all the energy is accounted for you just seem to belive it requires more than it actually does. Occam suggests nothing because its a theory not an answer and furthermore I have found the route that requires the least assumptions, trying to math the weight and energy of an oil tanker whch afterall is actually real and has real weights concerning it is far easier than mathing Temp. Her final energy was higher than Raz but the energy in knocking down Temp was over a large area, Raziel uses the tiniest area but as I showed in my working I condensed the energy into the area of Shuraba her katana. The place the reaver struck was what weakened/damaged Kain enough to be weak against Raziels claws, in a slash no less meaning the reaver has perhaps over a million tonnes more force than Raziels claws, think of it this way. If I had a sheet of metal and I melted its face (the reaver striking Kain) to the point where it was soft, I could (ignoring the heat a human hand could not survive) punch through the soft/melted liquid metal.

No, gameplay says he cant, official quotes on gameplay controls say he cannot control sarafan etc, thats the same as saying Kratos cannot one shot zombies and centaur. Youve seen the cutscene of Marcus, youve seen the evidence that Vampires evolve over time, Kain>Marcus in every way.

This is solved this argument, Bayonetta cannot harm Kain with her weapons so Kain simply kills her from his choice of ability.

Alright then.. ''desnest/strongest object that fills a space is the most dominant.'' Proof, facts and evidence then. Burden of proof.

Orly? What sounds more simple to you, this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock Temp back who is partly made of rock'' or this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock the tanker back which broke Temp's propulsion system, who is made of something lighter than rock, causing it to get knocked back under its own devices''? And for what reason would I want to make a Bayonetta feat sound better? lol how many assumptions is 'thats its volume, and density is rock and other shiz'? Think ya messed up. If someone gets annoyed, 3 claps for them. The annoyance is the debating tactic of avoiding things or agreeing with illogical ideas so their fav character doesn't lose.

Her+tanker is not how we gather force. Its result=her. It says we should go with the theory that requires less assumptions, and since the start my only assumptions was that its made of marble which I halved for fairness. Anything else came after and from what you think I should do. Her final energy, even by your standards, compared to Raziel's is still >> the difference than her blade and the Reaver's cutting force. (w/o Pillow Talk that is) And no, by the area it was a min of 50x the claws. Thats an odd analogy right thar.. a cut doesnt soften up the flesh. Anyhow we see the blood from the cut coming from the right abdominal area , Raziel shoved his hand just under Kain's sternum. The two places at best hardly cross. Even less likely as the for this idea to work his claws would have to precisely dig into the the Reavers wound, which didnt happen.

Quotes+gameplay>opinion. How it that even remotely the same? No quotes say Kratos can't shred a human and the cutscenes even show him being able to do more so. The only thing is gameplay until a QTE is activated. How is it the same when Kratos has been shown to do these things where Kain has not? Cutscene of Marcus doing what? All Ive seen is him controlling some people from afar.. I fail to see how this comes close to showing it working on aggros and/or non-weak minds like what was asked of you to provide.

Sure. If we assume that Bayonetta can at best move a tanker, that Raziel's claws didn't stab Kain, that he can teleport into people, charm whatever he wants and that her superior time powers don't work on Kain for some unknown reason.. then yeah, whatever is she to do... Alternatively Bay slows down time and performs her skyscraper head-butt to Kain's head.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Alright then.. ''desnest/strongest object that fills a space is the most dominant.'' Proof, facts and evidence then. Burden of proof.

Orly? What sounds more simple to you, this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock Temp back who is partly made of rock'' or this; ''Bay's throw was strong enough to knock the tanker back which broke Temp's propulsion system, who is made of something lighter than rock, causing it to get knocked back under its own devices''? And for what reason would I want to make a Bayonetta feat sound better? lol how many assumptions is 'thats its volume, and density is rock and other shiz'? Think ya messed up. If someone gets annoyed, 3 claps for them. The annoyance is the debating tactic of avoiding things or agreeing with illogical ideas so their fav character doesn't lose.

Her+tanker is not how we gather force. Its result=her. It says we should go with the theory that requires less assumptions, and since the start my only assumptions was that its made of marble which I halved for fairness. Anything else came after and from what you think I should do. Her final energy, even by your standards, compared to Raziel's is still >> the difference than her blade and the Reaver's cutting force. (w/o Pillow Talk that is) And no, by the area it was a min of 50x the claws. Thats an odd analogy right thar.. a cut doesnt soften up the flesh. Anyhow we see the blood from the cut coming from the right abdominal area , Raziel shoved his hand just under Kain's sternum. The two places at best hardly cross. Even less likely as the for this idea to work his claws would have to precisely dig into the the Reavers wound, which didnt happen.

Quotes+gameplay>opinion. How it that even remotely the same? No quotes say Kratos can't shred a human and the cutscenes even show him being able to do more so. The only thing is gameplay until a QTE is activated. How is it the same when Kratos has been shown to do these things where Kain has not? Cutscene of Marcus doing what? All Ive seen is him controlling some people from afar.. I fail to see how this comes close to showing it working on aggros and/or non-weak minds like what was asked of you to provide.

Sure. If we assume that Bayonetta can at best move a tanker, that Raziel's claws didn't stab Kain, that he can teleport into people, charm whatever he wants and that her superior time powers don't work on Kain for some unknown reason.. then yeah, whatever is she to do... Alternatively Bay slows down time and performs her skyscraper head-butt to Kain's head.

You see it in teleportation all the time, Kain fills an area and his form is more domindant against what is in the area he fills. Your argueing semantics now...

you listing things to make them sound as long as you possibly can does not make it more simple, I can do it too; more simple: "Bays force/energy was enough to knock Temp down through the use of the oil tanker and angel" which is what we see OR "Bay used some unkown strength to launch the angel, which threw the tanker, which had to defeat the unkown weight of temp who is density A, volume B=weight C which are all really unkown without calc the tanker. Your other assumptions also include how your "sensible" deductions and "sensible math" based on compomises that are also assumptions like materials Temp is made from are worth using, my calc does it all using the weights of real world items.

My calculation gives us the overall joules, e.g energy going through the entire equation. Which is mine, which makes zero assumptions at the moment now since I dont have to even weigh tempentia to know how much force was required to knock him down. Her final energy is at best 1000 tonnes, Raziel can do 13000 and failed with that on Kains body. This was not just a cut, the wraith blade is not just a sword you missed the point that the slash weakened Kains body enough for it to happen, proof for this? the Soul reaver 2 intro FMV so you trying to argue Raziel can cut Kain is proven wrong, whats proven right is that Kain requires that weakening from the Soul reaver.

Quotes from gameplay mechanics+gameplay mechanics> actual storyline and logic I think you meant to claim. And the cutscenes show Marcus using the power Kain has 1000 more evolution on in this matchup which is not required, the little Kain has shown in Blood omen 2>>bayonettas current resistance.

You not understanding the calculations is clearly the problem here now, the velocity she made the tanker go is her input in the overall energy, the velocity+tanker was all thats required to gain the energy to knock temp down as we have seen, no assumptions, clear answer. Her time powers have yet to work on anyone apprently, I have yet to see it happen. not sure if she could do that since it takes the same magic/concentration, I dont think I have seen her combine stopping time on someone and using all her magical abilities at once which come from the same source of power. Although, I highly doubt that force will come to much considering the "stone, steel and glass" and what not that makes up the scraper were not damaged so I wonder if she used force to send it flying or magic, I would go with the latter although I am glad your veering away from this whole Tempentia lost cause of an argument.

What teleporting demonstrates this?

Actually I was listing the base points and assumptions, not making things up like your latter example. Ah so because we dont know 100% what its made of its unquantifiable? Same can be said for 9/10 feats calced here. ''Sensible'' is saying its its based of marble and a low density material inside.

Seeing as more specific calcs are wanted I guess I'll go back to the obelisk feat without the assumptions I gave in Raz's favour. For the first time I calc'd it I assumed that Raziel was a tad smaller than height as Kain at 180cm. Now I worked out that Raz is a good deal shorter than Kain, who is actually 190cm(6ft3in), at 175cm. The pyramid tips height=length=Raziel's height, V=1,786,458.33*2.6=5.12tons. The base of the obelisk is 2x his height at 350cm. The height is about 4x the base, also confirmed by the smaller obelisks that have 3.5 with their 2m base and 7m height, for 1400cm. Last time I calced it as a cuboid for not having the correct formals, now I have it. Right pyramidal frustum V=⅓h(a1+a2+(√a1*a2)) h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square. V=100553251cm3*2.6= 288.187tons + tip = 293.307 tons. Due to a friends way of calcing that gets a slightly higher number so I'll bump it up to 300 tons. So a 300 ton strength feat giving Raz a lift force of 0.272MJ, half that for a single arm is 0.136MJ. Compared to Bayonetta's single arm force of, and from your 40 tons at 43m/s tanker figures, 33.55MJ. Maybe I skimmed over the part where the area of Bay's blade is 250x larger than that of Raziel's claws when its only 50x larger than one of the points. Adding to the fact that she'd be using two hands she'll have 500x the force Raz was hitting Kain with.. and in no way are both his claw tips 1/500th the size of her 2in hit point of her blade. (Smaller for maths talk)
Yeah SR2 intro doesn't discredit him getting his heart ripped out. Nor does it explain how it made it easier to stab Kain when it didnt even hit the same place.

What storyline shows this? What logic based on things we've seen shows this? Thats all well and good.. except that you were asked to provide a cutscene of him using it on the 2 limitations, not him him using it in general.

Oh yeah, Im sure thats the problem here. This is just the basic tactic when a strength is above Raziels, like with the OoTPiller. So by your logic the energy of a 40 ton lorry at 40m/s can make a 10/35/70k ton mass 20m/s? Because even if the 'propulsion' broke the initial force was still enough to send t horizontal, horizontal=broken propulsion. Yeah, it does. Havnt seen it? Thats exactly what she does with the skyscraper.. uses Witch Time + full charge. She used an unknown force or magic talent to send it back?... Not the headbutt we clearly see? Its worse then when Moo said Dante made the raindrops stop moving with some special power. Its a skyscraper. It was sent flying. She charged up and hit it. End of. Whether she used magic or whatever doesnt change the fact that she generated the force to send it flying back. Im not veering away from anything, one is charge strength and the other is non-charged, you saying its a lost cause does not make it so~

Originally posted by BloodRain
What teleporting demonstrates this?

Actually I was listing the base points and assumptions, not making things up like your latter example. Ah so because we dont know 100% what its made of its unquantifiable? Same can be said for 9/10 feats calced here. ''Sensible'' is saying its its based of marble and a low density material inside.

Seeing as more specific calcs are wanted I guess I'll go back to the obelisk feat without the assumptions I gave in Raz's favour. For the first time I calc'd it I assumed that Raziel was a tad smaller than height as Kain at 180cm. Now I worked out that Raz is a good deal shorter than Kain, who is actually 190cm(6ft3in), at 175cm. The pyramid tips height=length=Raziel's height, V=1,786,458.33*2.6=5.12tons. The base of the obelisk is 2x his height at 350cm. The height is about 4x the base, also confirmed by the smaller obelisks that have 3.5 with their 2m base and 7m height, for 1400cm. Last time I calced it as a cuboid for not having the correct formals, now I have it. Right pyramidal frustum V=⅓h(a1+a2+(√a1*a2)) h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square. V=100553251cm3*2.6= 288.187tons + tip = 293.307 tons. Due to a friends way of calcing that gets a slightly higher number so I'll bump it up to 300 tons. So a 300 ton strength feat giving Raz a lift force of 0.272MJ, half that for a single arm is 0.136MJ. Compared to Bayonetta's single arm force of, and from your 40 tons at 43m/s tanker figures, 33.55MJ. Maybe I skimmed over the part where the area of Bay's blade is 250x larger than that of Raziel's claws when its only 50x larger than one of the points. Adding to the fact that she'd be using two hands she'll have 500x the force Raz was hitting Kain with.. and in no way are both his claw tips 1/500th the size of her 2in hit point of her blade. (Smaller for maths talk)
Yeah SR2 intro doesn't discredit him getting his heart ripped out. Nor does it explain how it made it easier to stab Kain when it didnt even hit the same place.

What storyline shows this? What logic based on things we've seen shows this? Thats all well and good.. except that you were asked to provide a cutscene of him using it on the 2 limitations, not him him using it in general.

Oh yeah, Im sure thats the problem here. This is just the basic tactic when a strength is above Raziels, like with the OoTPiller. So by your logic the energy of a 40 ton lorry at 40m/s can make a 10/35/70k ton mass 20m/s? Because even if the 'propulsion' broke the initial force was still enough to send t horizontal, horizontal=broken propulsion. Yeah, it does. Havnt seen it? Thats exactly what she does with the skyscraper.. uses Witch Time + full charge. She used an unknown force or magic talent to send it back?... Not the headbutt we clearly see? Its worse then when Moo said Dante made the raindrops stop moving with some special power. Its a skyscraper. It was sent flying. She charged up and hit it. End of. Whether she used magic or whatever doesnt change the fact that she generated the force to send it flying back. Im not veering away from anything, one is charge strength and the other is non-charged, you saying its a lost cause does not make it so~

All teleporting requires you to fill the mass of a specific space.

What did I "make up?". No silly, I have found the quantity with my own calc, it just took calcing something we know the weight of.

I know your bitter but trying to re-calc the obelisk with the smallest figuires you can find imaginable and cutting it down by 400 tonnes is not going to convince me of anything, you can show me the calculations behind mathing a pyramid however and you can show me Raziel and Kain side my side so you can "guess" at their differences in height so I know where your coming from because Raziel is not "that" much shorter than Kain at all, hes just hunched a lot of the time. I will for lulz calc the 300 tonnes for Raz because I would probably still find it a more impressive if not equelly impressive feat as Bayonettas. Yes it does, it shows Raziel at full strength hitting Kain at full strength, using more than just one arm but his whole body (minus his free arm I guess) to spring into the attack several times...Kain stands undamaged without even a scratch.

Marcus and the storyline that states how vampires evolve over time hence how older ones are stronger, all of that plus the fact Kain gains the vampires dark gift, nothing about a weakened version>>>gameplay mechanics taken from an instruction manuel, I can do that with Kratos, afterall he has to press circle only afterweakening a beast before he can mount it apprently Why the limitations? your talking silly now because your going to ask me to find a video of him mind controlling animals next? or some other irrelevency, this is a red herring sir.....

Clearly otherwise you would understand we have the calc already, you just dont like it hence your bitter "snarky" comments. What make a calculation that makes no assumptions and gets a correct figuire? The 10/35/70k tons is all your figuires based off a list of "sensible" assumptions according to you, I am using real units of measurement without having to guess. I still cant see if shes actually headbutting it or moving her head in its direction just before it hits her otherwise the scrapers body would be damaged and no its not really unknown since we can see the talent there and then. Trying to comapre two events completly apart is redundant. of course your veering away, and no me "saying" it does not make it so, me proving you wrong with a assumptionless calculation does.

Our claim: Kain cannot control aggressive people or those who are not weak minded.

Evidence for this claim: The game itself and direct manual quotes.


Your claim: Kain can control anything.

Evidence for this claim: Conjecture and assumptions from the fact that vampires evolve.

The problem with this being, your claim is essentially unsupported. Please show us Kain's Charm ability evolving, or even him using it ever again. If you want to make this claim, why not show us an evolved ability? Can Kain read minds? Marcus could read minds, but Kain can't, so that indicates Kain is still not as powerful as Marcus, unless you can offer definitive proof that this particular ability evolved any further.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Our claim: Kain cannot control aggressive people or those who are not weak minded.

Evidence for this claim: The gameplay mechanics within the game as well as gameplay control instructions from the manuel just like how every character in gameplay mechanics has to "weaken" or do another context sensitive action that does not make sense considering canon powers.


Your claim: Kain can control Bayonetta and anyone without mental protection feats.

Evidence for this claim: Bayonetta has no feats or any more ability to resist than the humans Kain controls and those that Marcus dominates.

The problem with this being, your claim is essentially unsupported. Please show us Kain's Charm ability evolving, or even him using it ever again. If you want to make this claim, why not show us an evolved ability? Can Kain read minds? Marcus could read minds, but Kain can't, so that indicates Kain is still not as powerful as Marcus, unless you can offer definitive proof that this particular ability evolved any further.

Its supported by the actual canon and lore, the abilities of vampires as well as the vampires themselves evolve over time as well as the same evidence from the manuel thats not from the "gameplay controls" area;



Your case rests on nothing but a gameplay mechanic control system/balance that is up against the logic behind the powers, what kain gains from them and how he evolves and how powers for these vampires evolve in general. The fact we dont see him use the power does not mean it is not there although Kain also gains memories and thoughts by drinking other peoples blood, hes not done that to those hes questioned since Blood omen 1, this does not mean to say he simply cannot or has lost that ability.





I answered your post by amending it in several areas. Its irrelevant anyway, you are holding onto this as if mind control is Kains only way of winning or if its his only tactical option, he has many more. Bay is not the only one with time powers.

Editing quotes is possibly one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen you do. The fact that you claim to have "amended" it is just insulting. In any case:



'k, the things you need to prove being that:
-all vampire abilities evolve
-Charm in particular has evolved
-evolution automatically means the ability gets stronger
-an evolved ability disregards stated limits

So...yeah. Give me some proof that Charm does what you say it does. All you currently have is guesswork. Go ahead and prove the above assertions, all of which you have claimed as part of your argument.



And your case rests on nothing, period. We see Kain using the ability and what it's limits are. We have these limits further described by the manual. Your claim is that Kain has evolved past these limits, and you have no evidence for this. If you're so sure of this evolution, I'm sure you'll have no trouble proving it? Show me Kain's abilities evolving, then show me Charm, specifically, evolving, and then you can show me Charm's evolution bypassing the limits that canon has imposed on it.

Claiming "gameplay" fails specifically because there's nothing else to go on. If you have a cutscene or statement that says Kain's use of Charm is not subject to the limits that the game and manual have imposed on it, by all means go ahead and post it. Until you do that, Kain can't affect aggressive people or those not specifically designated to be "weak minded." That's really all there is to it: prove it stop making claims.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Editing quotes is possibly one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen you do. The fact that you claim to have "amended" it is just insulting. In any case:



'k, the things you need to prove being that:
-all vampire abilities evolve
-Charm in particular has evolved
-evolution automatically means the ability gets stronger
-an evolved ability disregards stated limits

So...yeah. Give me some proof that Charm does what you say it does. All you currently have is guesswork. Go ahead and prove the above assertions, all of which you have claimed as part of your argument.



And your case rests on nothing, period. We see Kain using the ability and what it's limits are. We have these limits further described by the manual. Your claim is that Kain has evolved past these limits, and you have no evidence for this. If you're so sure of this evolution, I'm sure you'll have no trouble proving it? Show me Kain's abilities evolving, then show me Charm, specifically, evolving, and then you can show me Charm's evolution bypassing the limits that canon has imposed on it.

Claiming "gameplay" fails specifically because there's nothing else to go on. If you have a cutscene or statement that says Kain's use of Charm is not subject to the limits that the game and manual have imposed on it, by all means go ahead and post it. Until you do that, Kain can't affect aggressive people or those not specifically designated to be "weak minded." That's really all there is to it: prove it stop making claims.

I think your audacity of listing my argument in a way I never presented it to try and attack my point is an insult that had to be countered with another disrespectful act. Although to be fair, I would have simply corrected you in my following post anyway so its easier to directly change what you said.

I would not have to prove a particulour ability has evolved if all of them have been stated as generally advancing and Marcus shows us how the longer he has the ability it has become more powerful, the general idea of nosgoth vampires is that they grow stronger with age as do the gifts, you already know all this the only thing i have not shown you are specific things like charm evolving which I dont need to do at the moment since youve yet to prove bay has any resistances. I think its hilarious how you ignore all of my requests and think your important enough to demand them yourself.

No my evidence is shown, Kain has absorbed marcus' dark gift, its as simple as that. Your claim that its somehow a watered down version unlike pretty much all the other Dark gifts gain Kains being equel to what their users had is based around the instructions in a gameplay manuel.

oh but theres a ton to go on, like Marcus' use of the Dark gift Kain now has, your belief is that Kains is weaker than what Marcus has purely because the gameplay mechanic claims Kain cannot mind control certain enemies within the game. Gameplay mechanics being completly ignored kinda ruins your "argument" or lack therof.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I think your audacity of listing my argument in a way I never presented it to try and attack my point is an insult that had to be countered with another disrespectful act. Although to be fair, I would have simply corrected you in my following post anyway so its easier to directly change what you said.

Then I apologize; it wasn't meant to be offensive.



I don't think I need to prove Bayonetta's resistance, since I'm not claiming she can resist. What I am doing is trying to dispute your claim that Kain's abilities extend beyond what canon actually says he can do. Bayonetta still qualifies as an "aggressor" under the canon manual description of the Gift.

You still need to prove that Charm evolving means it isn't subject to the given limits. Simply saying "it evolved" is not enough unless you you have some way of quantifying this evolution and giving some indication it suddenly started affecting the aggressive or strong minded.




Yeah, and there's no indication at all that Kain's version is as good as Marcus'.
-Kain can't control aggressive or average minded people.
-Kain can't read minds.
-Kain can't jump as far as Faustus.
-Kain can't run on walls or move as fast as Sebastian.
-Kain can't use immolate as well as Magnus.

There's nothing to indicate that he can do the same things as the vampires just because he absorbed their veins. He gets a similar power that in all cases is, in fact, "watered down," and there is nothing in the game that even hints at Kain being able to perform the same feats.



No, it's mostly because Kain does not display most of the abilities Marcus uses, like mind reading and invisibility, indicating that he's got a weaker ability. Over a thousand years later and Kain has shown a complete lack of these abilities, evolved or otherwise. The only thing you could make a case for improving or evolving would probably be his TK, but he got that from a Hylden, not a vampire.

I would agree that gameplay is a poor substitute for cutscene and actual canon, but the lack of evidence really puts a damper on your own argument more. You'd be hard pressed to prove any of these abilities do anything, seeing as they're all featless.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then I apologize; it wasn't meant to be offensive.



I don't think I need to prove Bayonetta's resistance, since I'm not claiming she can resist. What I am doing is trying to dispute your claim that Kain's abilities extend beyond what canon actually says he can do. Bayonetta still qualifies as an "aggressor" under the canon manual description of the Gift.

You still need to prove that Charm evolving means it isn't subject to the given limits. Simply saying "it evolved" is not enough unless you you have some way of quantifying this evolution and giving some indication it suddenly started affecting the aggressive or strong minded.




Yeah, and there's no indication at all that Kain's version is as good as Marcus'.
-Kain can't control aggressive or average minded people.
-Kain can't read minds.
-Kain can't jump as far as Faustus.
-Kain can't run on walls or move as fast as Sebastian.
-Kain can't use immolate as well as Magnus.

There's nothing to indicate that he can do the same things as the vampires just because he absorbed their veins. He gets a similar power that in all cases is, in fact, "watered down," and there is nothing in the game that even hints at Kain being able to perform the same feats.



No, it's mostly because Kain does not display most of the abilities Marcus uses, like mind reading and invisibility, indicating that he's got a weaker ability. Over a thousand years later and Kain has shown a complete lack of these abilities, evolved or otherwise. The only thing you could make a case for improving or evolving would probably be his TK, but he got that from a Hylden, not a vampire.

I would agree that gameplay is a poor substitute for cutscene and actual canon, but the lack of evidence really puts a damper on your own argument more. You'd be hard pressed to prove any of these abilities do anything, seeing as they're all featless.

Fair enough, I apologise as I was simply tired of posting the same way.

Thats not a canon manuel description, thats a gameplay mechanic description suggesting you cannot mind control enemies in the game. Just like how the God of War 3 manuel says you have to "weaken" beasts before you can mount them by pressing a context sensitive button. Theres no indication outside of a gameplay mechanic/description or logic for that matter that would suggest someone wanting to harm Kain has some extra resistance to having his mind entered, it does not even sound like it makes sense.

As marcus says, his powers have increased drastically since he was last seen by Kain, most of the old lieutenants claim to have gained in power, and Kain takes those gifts. Why would Kain taking the gift from marcus lose the power of marcus'? or have to start from the beginning? it does not make sense, I would simply agree that anyone with more mental resistance than a human could defeat the MC.

Kain can read minds already before Marcus with this quote from the Blood omen 1 script:



Also I would like to see your calculated comparisons on that because last time I looked, Kain can jump just as far, if not further than Faustus. Hell I think even the gap across the bridge Kain has to get across to continue may be further than we see faustus jump.

Kain did not run on walls, but his dark gift in the game is an incredibly quick attack of the hands.

Yes he can, he thinks and his opponent burns, thats all there is to it really isnt there if youve seen the ability. If your talking about the fact Kain does not bust statues (iirc he does not) like magnus then thats not evidence of him not being able to, only that I would have to point to the fact Dark gifts as they are will be absorbed. When it comes to something like an action you belive a character needs to do before you agree they can do it first wonder if they would do it even if they had the power like the relationship between abosrbing Dark gifts and their predessors suggests.

Kain does not have to display anything when its clearly outlined Kain takes the "dark gift" of his opponent, the fact the gameplay mechanic in charm is limited means nothing since its not even accounted for. Take mind reading in Blood omen 1, Kains not actually used it for years, that does not give any evidence to suggest hes somehow lost it but simply that hes not used it like some of these powers.

A cutscene is not the only form of canon, infact the storyline behind how Kain gains the Dark gifts of his fallen enemies makes their feats his own unless its specifically stated somewhere he gets a "watered down" version. You cannot argue he does have a weaker version just because he did not run up a wall, or mind control a sewer thug just like how I cannot claim Kratos has problems ripping a centaur in half just because the game requires them to be weakened before you can do it. This is completly ignored regardless of what other feats Kratos has since even if he had no feats at all like you belive Kain has (since you dont want to agree with the dark gift=the feat from its previous user) we still could not use the fact he needs to weaken something before cutting its stomach open.

Specific examples of teleporting solid mass into solid mass? And do you have any proof that being dense would allow it to take the shape, or that the 'porting mass wont just fail at taking over the space?

So because we don't know the exact weight we cant use it? With that attitude any and every feat that cant be done or isn't irl cant be accepted.

Oh I'm sure I'm bitter cos my favorite is losing to my hated character.. Hang on.. I prefer Kain over Bayonetta.. so guess not. Its just calcing, like always. Like Ive said to you and several others here, getting personal with a debate has nothing to do with the debate itself. You wanted to get technical, so I got technical. All the measurements have been measured and are move precise than my last guess. Already showed the calculations and Kain is 1.1x Raziels height, even went and got the same result in-game to compare, just under Kain's eye level. 300 is the total, single arm would be near half that. Already found out the answer using your method of -(convert joules to ft/lb to in/lb)/area=result- above. (Btw use the US tons, not Brit tonnes. Makes it easier to compare when most calcs are in tons) Raziel's '300' ton lift gives 200734.195 psf, as psi thats 1393.987467424/ area of 0.0016 = 871242.167 lbs # 436 tons. Compare that to the 1162.7 tons you gave Bayonetta for a slash.. 2.6667x more force. Try doing the same comparison factoring in; Raziel's single arm strength used(less for Raz), Bay's two armed strength(more for Bay), stabbing with the very tip of her sword(more for Bay) and if she uses Pillow Talk(more for Bay), and you'll get a figure far more in Bay's favour.
Yet when it gets down to an intentional pierce we have Raziel stabbing Kain with his claws, with the area the Reaver hit not intercepting the cut at all. Thats 1 hitting scene against and 1 stabbing scene for. Would be a stalemate if it wasn't for the definitive showing of him getting stabbed.

So in other words no evidence to provide? Thats all speculative theory, we want cold hard facts and evidence. Bad comparison as we have a treasure trove of cutscenes involving Kratos having extreme strength, scenes Kain does not have. In fact, if Kratos had none of his high cutscene/QTE strength feats and the only thing we had to base his strength on was gameplay of him putting effort into ripping a Centaur apart then it couldnt be argued that his strength was any higher as we wouldnt have scenes to say so. But we do. Reading what you said to Scenario the base of your argument is based off should. Kain should have the same effect as Marcus despite quotes, gameplay and that afaik Marcus has never done so himself. Charm should be stronger by Defiance even if its never been shown to be. Like how Dante2 should be massively faster than Dante3 compared to his other skills but it doesnt give me the right to claim that he's Mach1500 with this. O.o do you even know what a Red Herring is? Because asking for you to show proof against something stated is in no way irrelevant or unrelated to the point.

Please stop comparing getting tired of people twisting things to a pregnant girl getting hormonal. Unless you were to get ban-worth offensive I wont be changing my core debate style. And the tanker thing is all your figures.. point? Agreed to her Witch Time working? Oh dear...''I still cant see if shes actually headbutting it or moving her head in its direction just before it hits her'' for the sake of taking you seriously please say you were joking just now If not thats a large assumption in the face of visual evidence with a lack of any previous skill like what you're thinking.(which btw even if she did some magic power to knock a skyscraper back without touching it, that power could be applied to this fight either way) Redundant? Ones for normal combat ones for charged attacks. Oh I see, you're psychic and know what Im thinking before I do myself.. Its called discussing two points at once, kinda what we've been doing all along. Your calcs dont show the force required to throw a large mass at that speed, because with or without that propulsion assumption you would still have to have that force necessary. 35 ton force would not send 10k tons 20m/s back like it did. Propulsion or not, it still requires the force.

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Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats not a canon manuel description, thats a gameplay mechanic description suggesting you cannot mind control enemies in the game. Just like how the God of War 3 manuel says you have to "weaken" beasts before you can mount them by pressing a context sensitive button. Theres no indication outside of a gameplay mechanic/description or logic for that matter that would suggest someone wanting to harm Kain has some extra resistance to having his mind entered, it does not even sound like it makes sense.

A quote from the manual is not a "canon manual description" now? And it does not "suggest" anything, it outright states that Kain can only control non-aggressive characters. Here it is again:



"All non-aggressive characters." And I hate to copy BloodRain's ideas, but I've got to agree with him here. Kratos has additional support for his feats beyond the game, while Kain does not. All you are doing is assuming Kain can do more than is shown.



Was it stated that stolen Dark Gifts evolve? All the other vampires evolved their powers naturally over, what, 200 years? Meanwhile, there is precedent for Kain losing his powers, as he lost nearly all of them after getting the heck beaten out of him and going into a coma. I don't know if he lost them again, but hey. Hmm, I wonder if Dark Gift atrophy with disuse? Meh, getting into speculation now.

All I'm really saying is that, since Kain does not display the exact same powers as those he absorbs the veins of, you can't assume he has the exact same powers.



Via drinking his blood, apparently. Very different from Marcus' arguably more useful method.




Comparing this to, say, this, Faustus gets a bit more distance, and his vertical leap leaves Kain in the dust.



So there's another example of a Dark Gift not working the same way after Kain gets it. Rather similar to Charm in that respect.



Ah, but the thing being that Kain can't use whenever he wants. He has to be sufficiently angry or have enough power. Of course, that is a gameplay abstraction (the Rage meter, specifically) that again lacks any further information beyond the game itself. And further differences being that Magnus causes explosions, while Kain puts things in a ring of fire. That's one more Dark Gift differing when Kain uses it.

And if you want to go into what a character "would do," then I suppose it won't be difficult to prove that Kain will use all of his powers (especially Charm) at the first opportunity and/or start of the fight?




Yet Berserk and Immolate both have different effect when used by Kain. That's enough to set a precedent, namely that it is not strange for Charm to have different effects. It's obvious that Kain doesn't take the Dark Gifts exactly as they were, so trying to imply that he does is going to be faulty no matter what.




I could not care less about Kratos at this moment, and BloodRain has already addressed it. Kratos has additional feats to back his strength up, while Kain...doesn't. Like it or not, Kain only uses these abilities in gameplay, and nothing really implies that Kain can use Charm the way you claim he can. Heck, evidence points to Kain not getting the same exact Dark Gift in at least two more cases.



And then the storyline says that absorbing veins grants "new abilities", and nothing is said about gaining the exact same ability. In fact, it is a "new one."



It has to do with vampire "evolution." The older they get, the more powerful and monstrous they get. It's why Kain looks almost like a human in, say, Blood Omen 1&2 and then looks like a hideous mass of veins in the Soul Reaver games maybe a thousand years later.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Specific examples of teleporting solid mass into solid mass? And do you have any proof that being dense would allow it to take the shape, or that the 'porting mass wont just fail at taking over the space?

So because we don't know the exact weight we cant use it? With that attitude any and every feat that cant be done or isn't irl cant be accepted.

Oh I'm sure I'm bitter cos my favorite is losing to my hated character.. Hang on.. I prefer Kain over Bayonetta.. so guess not. Its just calcing, like always. Like Ive said to you and several others here, getting personal with a debate has nothing to do with the debate itself. You wanted to get technical, so I got technical. All the measurements have been measured and are move precise than my last guess. Already showed the calculations and Kain is 1.1x Raziels height, even went and got the same result in-game to compare, just under Kain's eye level. 300 is the total, single arm would be near half that. Already found out the answer using your method of -(convert joules to ft/lb to in/lb)/area=result- above. (Btw use the US tons, not Brit tonnes. Makes it easier to compare when most calcs are in tons) Raziel's '300' ton lift gives 200734.195 psf, as psi thats 1393.987467424/ area of 0.0016 = 871242.167 lbs # 436 tons. Compare that to the 1162.7 tons you gave Bayonetta for a slash.. 2.6667x more force. Try doing the same comparison factoring in; Raziel's single arm strength used(less for Raz), Bay's two armed strength(more for Bay), stabbing with the very tip of her sword(more for Bay) and if she uses Pillow Talk(more for Bay), and you'll get a figure far more in Bay's favour.
Yet when it gets down to an intentional pierce we have Raziel stabbing Kain with his claws, with the area the Reaver hit not intercepting the cut at all. Thats 1 hitting scene against and 1 stabbing scene for. Would be a stalemate if it wasn't for the definitive showing of him getting stabbed.

So in other words no evidence to provide? Thats all speculative theory, we want cold hard facts and evidence. Bad comparison as we have a treasure trove of cutscenes involving Kratos having extreme strength, scenes Kain does not have. In fact, if Kratos had none of his high cutscene/QTE strength feats and the only thing we had to base his strength on was gameplay of him putting effort into ripping a Centaur apart then it couldnt be argued that his strength was any higher as we wouldnt have scenes to say so. But we do. Reading what you said to Scenario the base of your argument is based off should. Kain should have the same effect as Marcus despite quotes, gameplay and that afaik Marcus has never done so himself. Charm should be stronger by Defiance even if its never been shown to be. Like how Dante2 should be massively faster than Dante3 compared to his other skills but it doesnt give me the right to claim that he's Mach1500 with this. O.o do you even know what a Red Herring is? Because asking for you to show proof against something stated is in no way irrelevant or unrelated to the point.

Please stop comparing getting tired of people twisting things to a pregnant girl getting hormonal. Unless you were to get ban-worth offensive I wont be changing my core debate style. And the tanker thing is all your figures.. point? Agreed to her Witch Time working? Oh dear...''I still cant see if shes actually headbutting it or moving her head in its direction just before it hits her'' for the sake of taking you seriously please say you were joking just now If not thats a large assumption in the face of visual evidence with a lack of any previous skill like what you're thinking.(which btw even if she did some magic power to knock a skyscraper back without touching it, that power could be applied to this fight either way) Redundant? Ones for normal combat ones for charged attacks. Oh I see, you're psychic and know what Im thinking before I do myself.. Its called discussing two points at once, kinda what we've been doing all along. Your calcs dont show the force required to throw a large mass at that speed, because with or without that propulsion assumption you would still have to have that force necessary. 35 ton force would not send 10k tons 20m/s back like it did. Propulsion or not, it still requires the force.

---------------------------------
Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?

I feel like your trying to get me prove a red herring, A: Kain does not teleport into solid mass but B: why would he even need to? teleporting is teleportng, Kains "magic" is not going to turn to him and say "nope, you cant teleport here!" and the area being denser than air should not make much of a difference.

Well in this case we cannot know any of the weights, when we math Chronos in God of War or blocks in various games we can at least take at base value a figuire for example chronos can be mathed as a giant human despite his proportions to get a fair enough answer and blocks in these games like LoK are just cubes, using a character standing almost next to them you can get a rough volume but Tempentia is not anywhere similiar to these shapes and his material is unkown.

I have the evidence from the same site you got it from, Kain absorbs their Dark gifts, the only evidence (lack of) that you have is from a gameplay description, so regardless of the evidence behind what Kain has gained and what Marcus could do with what Kain has gained it seems you still belive gamepaly mechanic>>those scenes therefore by your logic Kratos still cannot mount beasts without weakening them first. No, if we had no strength feats to suggest it we would use the fact hes still a peak human if not more and the centaur iirc is featless therefore the very idea of having to weaken something before attacking the specific context sensititve areas in the gameplay is redundant. Its not really should and more so has, the only should] is Kain should not need any better powers than those hes displayed to MC a featless bayonetta. Of course I do, hence when asked to prove something completly irrelevent like a counter to gameplay mechanics, one of which are illogical mechanics and the other irrelevent completly even taking gameplay mechanics to heart.

What density could you possibly be using to get 300 tonnes? wood? it seems interesting how when it serves your interests your maths is now at a fault of about 400 tonnes so in doubt I have mathed the obelisk myself, seveal figuires I got were between 500-1000 tonnes due to the fact I could not decide on the overall height of the obelisk.

The tanker calc are not all my figuires, the weights are from Wiki or answerbag because I dont know the weight of a oil tanker, I was very generous to take the very largest ones although tbh its not, its got the cab of an older variant and the tanker is not as large as the biggest American big rig, the only figuire thats mine is the distance between the tanker and Temp which I kinda over compensated on. No I am yet to see Bayonetta witch time a living entity, I dont recall it happeing since even when active people like jeanne or the angel bosses in cutscenes are not affected, only rubble/inanimate objects. Its not a large assumption, its what I am trying to deduct from the same scene although looking at it again I agree shes headbutting it but the energy is spread over an area larger than her head which what threw me.

an intentional pierce? so raziel reduced the effectiveness of his claws did he before he hit Kain? dont be silly and the reaver covers the entire chest, Kain also holds his entire chest area and blood pours around his hand, not a specific area and again, your pretending its just a "blade", its an energy/spirit weapon endowed with a large number of elemental powers that harms you more than just physically, its not like raziel took out a iron sword and slashed Kain with it. Weve got weakeed kain getting stabbed after slashed by the wraith blade (e.g. the difference between the Blood reaver being a draining sword and becoming a God destroying weapon) by a much weaker, slower raziel whos barely moving yet you think its proof top strength kain>>Raziels claws despite a fast/stronger Raziel not being able to scratch Kain after several blows.....

First we actually see it happen and now once again like the tankers durability you want to ignore something because your stubborn concerning the weight "you" have somehow acquired from Tempentias odd dimensions and unkown materials. Thats the final figuire, you cant add anything else to the equation other than the energy Bay gives the tanker and its mass would stay the same (unless you want to muck around add a few hundred pounds fro the angel thing?, wont make a difference).

Originally posted by BloodRain

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Memory is made of fail, why do some LoK vampires look like gargoyles, others like monsters and some that could pass for human?


Some look like gargoyles like Kain, Vorador etc? because their evolved, as Vampires evolve they transform to look like Kain. They look human like the image you have of umah when their young, have only been vampires for a few hundred years, when it gets to thousands-tens of thousands they end up like Kain/vorador. They look like monsters because Kains sons and their children cannot take Kains corruption, Kain fragmented his soul to create them but the corruption Nupruptor (the mind guardian) gave Kain from birth is unbearable by them so they kind of shape to their surroundings and become more deformed/monstrous.

As an adition to that question, characters like Janos audren are original vampires, the winged race that they were before cursed by the hylden.



Originally posted by The Scenario
A quote from the manual is not a "canon manual description" now? And it does not "suggest" anything, it outright states that Kain can only control non-aggressive characters. Here it is again:



"All non-aggressive characters." And I hate to copy BloodRain's ideas, but I've got to agree with him here. Kratos has additional support for his feats beyond the game, while Kain does not. All you are doing is assuming Kain can do more than is shown.



Was it stated that stolen Dark Gifts evolve? All the other vampires evolved their powers naturally over, what, 200 years? Meanwhile, there is precedent for Kain losing his powers, as he lost nearly all of them after getting the heck beaten out of him and going into a coma. I don't know if he lost them again, but hey. Hmm, I wonder if Dark Gift atrophy with disuse? Meh, getting into speculation now.

All I'm really saying is that, since Kain does not display the exact same powers as those he absorbs the veins of, you can't assume he has the exact same powers.



Via drinking his blood, apparently. Very different from Marcus' arguably more useful method.




Comparing this to, say, this, Faustus gets a bit more distance, and his vertical leap leaves Kain in the dust.



So there's another example of a Dark Gift not working the same way after Kain gets it. Rather similar to Charm in that respect.



Ah, but the thing being that Kain can't use whenever he wants. He has to be sufficiently angry or have enough power. Of course, that is a gameplay abstraction (the Rage meter, specifically) that again lacks any further information beyond the game itself. And further differences being that Magnus causes explosions, while Kain puts things in a ring of fire. That's one more Dark Gift differing when Kain uses it.

And if you want to go into what a character "would do," then I suppose it won't be difficult to prove that Kain will use all of his powers (especially Charm) at the first opportunity and/or start of the fight?




Yet Berserk and Immolate both have different effect when used by Kain. That's enough to set a precedent, namely that it is not strange for Charm to have different effects. It's obvious that Kain doesn't take the Dark Gifts exactly as they were, so trying to imply that he does is going to be faulty no matter what.




I could not care less about Kratos at this moment, and BloodRain has already addressed it. Kratos has additional feats to back his strength up, while Kain...doesn't. Like it or not, Kain only uses these abilities in gameplay, and nothing really implies that Kain can use Charm the way you claim he can. Heck, evidence points to Kain not getting the same exact Dark Gift in at least two more cases.



And then the storyline says that absorbing veins grants "new abilities", and nothing is said about gaining the exact same ability. In fact, it is a "new one."



It has to do with vampire "evolution." The older they get, the more powerful and monstrous they get. It's why Kain looks almost like a human in, say, Blood Omen 1&2 and then looks like a hideous mass of veins in the Soul Reaver games maybe a thousand years later.

The quote is canon to the gameplay mechanics, but you cannot use that to claim the lore/story is based around those mechanics. Kain also has other backing ,just not from himself but from Marcus who he took the powers from.

Youve already gotten into speculation, doubting every area of a game does not mean I have to prove every specific question you come up with, Dark gifts evolve over time, simple as that but if you want to find evidence to suggest Dark gifts are stated to not evolve if youve abosrbed their power from another vamp then be my guest (you wont be able to). Theres no indication he lost all his powers, furthermore this Kain in this fight has lived both the Blood omen 2 destinty AND the destinty where Blood omen 2 did not even happen so thats irrelevent.

Why can I not? Kain absorbs their power=Kain has their power=Kain can do what they can do. Its a simple equation, trying to argue that somehow by the time Kain uses them hes not used to it then maybe you would have a point if Kain was only Blood omen 2 Kain, Kains had these powers for thousands of years.

I dont know, possibly by drinking his blood but the script claims he just "reads" his mind, either way Kain does not use this method again, therefore claiming he does not use the mental side of reading minds would be redundant to think he cannot.

Use this instead since its required to continue, attacking an opponent can only go as far as the distance between Kan and the opponent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghu3aqBJ8m0#t=10m6s

Kains is far stronger.

Yes I think we have enough gameplay mechanics cirulating as part of your argument as it is if you put enough heat into stone its sure to crack, explode etc from the pressure, the same cannot be said for incinerating a living entity.

In a KMC vs I guess he would use all his powers he can get his hands on.

Neither of them are different, your just argueing that because Magnus chooses a different target than Kain, or that kain uses his speed in his arms rather than to sprint along walls makes it true that he cannot do those things. Your trying to cover gameplay limits, that would be like me claiming Kratos could not use his thousands of tonnes of strength to rip up a chunk of concrete and launch it at his opponent in a VS just because he did not in the game....theres probably 1000 link comparisons that are similiar but I dont know him as well.

Of course gains new abilities, ergo, kain did not have them before absorbing them therefore their new...what was your point? that their new from the perspective of the person hes taking them from? I know your trying to twist words but you need to do it more skillfully to convince me of that claim. Umah does not know the pwoers Kain will acquire or those of Kains leuitenants.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The quote is canon to the gameplay mechanics, but you cannot use that to claim the lore/story is based around those mechanics. Kain also has other backing ,just not from himself but from Marcus who he took the powers from.

You can say that all you want, but until you prove that Kain can do things beyond what he shows it means nothing. Heck, Marcus hasn't even shown what you're claiming. Quotes are canon, stop ignoring them.




Don't care. You need to prove the powers that you're claiming; simply saying "evolution" does not give you free reign to make up more powers for the Dark Gifts. Charm has definite limits and you can't just wave them away by saying "game mechanics" when nothing else supports this.



Except for the fact that he does not display the same abilities, which puts an important variable in your equation. The abilities are shown with limits your haven't accounted for.



Other sources (wiki, Dark Chronicle, at least one FAQ) have claimed it was through the blood, which the video supports, and that Vorador shares the ability. However, what with the lack of evidence, you can't claim that Kain has Marcus' ability to read minds. Seeing as it is never mentioned or displayed, though, it's more than likely he doesn't have it.



Looks about the same, not further. Conceded, anyway.



Then what would you suggest we use? Everything about these abilities is gameplay, as they lack any cutscene/story feats or canon descriptions.* And if you want to disregard gameplay, you can go ahead and disregard all their possible feats. Anyway, it takes much more energy to break stone than it does to vaporize water (read: living creatures.)

*Though in actuality, the canon descriptions give limits.



Both of them are extremely different. Magnus' clearly has a different effect on what it does target than what Kain does, and Kain takes longer to pull it off. Magnus' doesn't even show fire, just explosions, while Kain's does. Then Sebastien still moves much faster than Kain using the "same" ability. It doesn't even seem like Sebastien is using Berserk, he's just just running fast, while Kain seems to attack faster and get a small strength boost. They are completely different in practice.



It doesn't say he gains the same ability, does it? From the various examples, it seems obvious he gets a similar, but nonetheless "new," ability.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You can say that all you want, but until you prove that Kain can do things beyond what he shows it means nothing. Heck, Marcus hasn't even shown what you're claiming. Quotes are canon, stop ignoring them.




Don't care. You need to prove the powers that you're claiming; simply saying "evolution" does not give you free reign to make up more powers for the Dark Gifts. Charm has definite limits and you can't just wave them away by saying "game mechanics" when nothing else supports this.



Except for the fact that he does not display the same abilities, which puts an important variable in your equation. The abilities are shown with limits your haven't accounted for.



Other sources (wiki, Dark Chronicle, at least one FAQ) have claimed it was through the blood, which the video supports, and that Vorador shares the ability. However, what with the lack of evidence, you can't claim that Kain has Marcus' ability to read minds. Seeing as it is never mentioned or displayed, though, it's more than likely he doesn't have it.



Looks about the same, not further. Conceded, anyway.



Then what would you suggest we use? Everything about these abilities is gameplay, as they lack any cutscene/story feats or canon descriptions.* And if you want to disregard gameplay, you can go ahead and disregard all their possible feats. Anyway, it takes much more energy to break stone than it does to vaporize water (read: living creatures.)

*Though in actuality, the canon descriptions give limits.



Both of them are extremely different. Magnus' clearly has a different effect on what it does target than what Kain does, and Kain takes longer to pull it off. Magnus' doesn't even show fire, just explosions, while Kain's does. Then Sebastien still moves much faster than Kain using the "same" ability. It doesn't even seem like Sebastien is using Berserk, he's just just running fast, while Kain seems to attack faster and get a small strength boost. They are completely different in practice.



It doesn't say he gains the same ability, does it? From the various examples, it seems obvious he gets a similar, but nonetheless "new," ability.

Was on a long weekend break and just got back, seems BR has been busy too.

Marcus has shown all Kain needs to work in this thread. Gameplay mechanics are not however, so stop ignoring rules please.

evolution gives me free reign to give a reason why Kain would be far stronger than Marcus. I did not name any specific powers Kain may be able to do so I dont know why your bringing that up. It has limits, featless beings is not one of them, game mechanics are not taken into account.

Hes shown the ability to mind control, and he has the fact hes absorbed Marcus' power there is no logic or claim or argument that can suggest he gets something weaker than Marcus has unless Gameplay mechanics were allowed, which they are not.

But I have just proven Kain can read minds, regardless of what method he uses. My point was that Kain does not use any of these powers, even the proven one in Blood omen 2, Defiance, Soul reaver etc so him not using the power Marcus gave him t do so is not an unusual thing.

I suggest we use the fact that Kain absorbs/acquires the powers/dark gifts of his enemies therefore using the cutscenes/canon of those abilities is the route, gameplay mechanics are never used, theres always something canon on an ability even if we have nothing but basic function to go from.

As I explained before, we would see explosions from rocks wheras Kain targets people, logical deduction. Completly different? your pushing that claim a bit too far, just because Magnus blew up a statue and Kain didnt does not mean the ability is completyl different, causing insane heat with your mind is the practice of the ability, its just weve seen both characters target other things. As for Sebastion, the practice was "slightly" different, all in all we have a speed boost, Kain uses it in his hands in the game, just because you dont need/ever run up a wall does not mean Kain cannot using Sebastions ability.

From the evidence he gets exactly the same ability with the only exceptions being gameplay mechanics and that you require to have to see the exact same actions and choices of target for a character before your convinced their the same powers. Kain acquires the dark gift of an enemy in canon but your not pleased unless he uses it in exactly the same fashion otherwise you belive its somehow weaker when Kain gets it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Marcus has shown all Kain needs to work in this thread. Gameplay mechanics are not however, so stop ignoring rules please.

Where? In gameplay, you mean? Doesn't matter, you still haven't proved that Kain can do more than he himself is shown to do.



You know, it really doesn't, what with it being entirely speculation. What I think you're failing to understand is that the ability is only used in gameplay, so there's really nothing else to go on except the canon description that gives it limits you're ignoring.



He shown the ability to mind control what? He's also got a canon manual description specifically outlining his limits, but you keep ignoring that one for some reason. Marcus doesn't really matter since he's only shown the ability in gameplay, too.




Good. Now prove he'll use any of these in the fight when he never does in canon.




How do you determine basic function? Without gameplay or the canon manual description, you'd be hard pressed to prove these abilities even exist.



From the videos I linked, you can you the differences. Magnus' power causes explosions, while Kain's causes fire. It has nothing to do with the target, they're just different abilities. An explosion is still much more powerful than mere fire. As for Sebastien, you're still trying to justify "Berserk" as simple speed. The abilities both are shown to use simply don't match. You'd need to prove Kain can replicate their abilities.



Not exactly weaker. Just different. He doesn't make explosions like Magnus or run on walls like Sebastien. He doesn't read minds like Marcus and canon manual descriptions say he can't control aggressive characters. It's clear he's got different, but similar, abilities that don't work quite the same way.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Where? In gameplay, you mean? Doesn't matter, you still haven't proved that Kain can do more than he himself is shown to do.



You know, it really doesn't, what with it being entirely speculation. What I think you're failing to understand is that the ability is only used in gameplay, so there's really nothing else to go on except the canon description that gives it limits you're ignoring.



He shown the ability to mind control what? He's also got a canon manual description specifically outlining his limits, but you keep ignoring that one for some reason. Marcus doesn't really matter since he's only shown the ability in gameplay, too.




Good. Now prove he'll use any of these in the fight when he never does in canon.




How do you determine basic function? Without gameplay or the canon manual description, you'd be hard pressed to prove these abilities even exist.



From the videos I linked, you can you the differences. Magnus' power causes explosions, while Kain's causes fire. It has nothing to do with the target, they're just different abilities. An explosion is still much more powerful than mere fire. As for Sebastien, you're still trying to justify "Berserk" as simple speed. The abilities both are shown to use simply don't match. You'd need to prove Kain can replicate their abilities.



Not exactly weaker. Just different. He doesn't make explosions like Magnus or run on walls like Sebastien. He doesn't read minds like Marcus and canon manual descriptions say he can't control aggressive characters. It's clear he's got different, but similar, abilities that don't work quite the same way.

Youve not seen Marcus mind control many human beings across the city? Marcus proves it for me what Kain can do.

Of course it does, nothing about abilities evolving over time or vampires in general is speculation, you know this so I dont know why your playing with me here. Marcus uses it in cutscenes not just gameplay and the "canon description" in your case is not canon at all to the lore, its a gameplay mechanic run down which is what your ignoring.

Theres a big difference between limits within gameplay (completly ignored as if they dont even exist in this thread) and limits in the lore. You see all the people, from warrior priests to Sarafan that hes mind contrlled trying to attack you across the city.

Thats a funny thing to say, prove hes going to use it in a fight against Bay? both of them I assume are using all the abilities at their disposal to win which is what this debate is about.

I dont know, maybe the part where Kain can absorb the dark gifts of his foes and we clearly see how each of the gifts are used. Basic function is what it generally does in the game, e.g. leap for jump, control minds for charm etc.

I can see the differences in target/practice, that does not change the actual ability. Marcus does not make explosions where are you seeing that? the fact the statue exploded does not mean Marcus makes explosions...exchange "fire" for "simple heat", and no thats not always the case since enough heat in a material, lets say stone statue can cause an explosion due to pressure. Berserk is just speed....

He "doesnt" run on walls, is not the same as saying he does not take Sebastions dark gift of speed....its not indicated that Sebastions gift is to run on walls either, he uses speed attacks or movements to fight Kain or evade him before the battle. "canon" manuel descriptions say Kain acquires the dark gifts of his enemies, what we see them do are their dark gifts e.g. Kain now has them canonically, you trying to use a gameplay control scheme to limit Kain is as foolish as me trying to limit Kratos by pointing out he has to weaken enemies before mounting them.


This whole argument is a red herring anyway since it may not even be a useful ability considering regardless of Bayonettas mental limitations she may not even be able to harm Kain, therefore basic attacks may well do.

Its only a Red Herring when I ask for something totally unrelated to the point, asking to back up a claim is not one. Teleporting, being a act of fiction, works by its own set of rules per verse. So if you believe that teleporting in the LoK verse would allow a character to 'port mass into mass then evidence is needed.

Shape- rough ellipsoid. Dimensions- scaled from the lorry. Materials- outside is rock-like, inside must have something inside for it to move (aka not hollow) so assumed 1g/cm3. Besides assuming that something light makes up it inertia so that it can move everything else is at base the same method. It isn't that complex of far-fetched

Scenario's covering the 'what he gained', so assuming for now that Kain can do what Marcus can, when exactly has Marcus ever done the things we're asking for? If we haven't seen a better strength/necessary feat from Kratos then it can't be argued, but we have proof to say so with cutscenes and QTE's. Kain and Marcus do not have this proof. Soo Kain's MC has to be stronger even without proof? And Kain's MC has control over those limitations as he copied Marcus who.. hasn't shown to do so? Again, asking for proof to negate the quotes and lack of showings is not a Red Herring. Its asking you to actually show us Charm working against the quotes.

If you read my post you would know the density. 1) Never thought about Raziel's height until this debate where I had to look at more Kain and Raziel clips. 2) Assumed its height by eye-judging if the base was 4m long. 3) Had no clue what the formula was let alone what the shape was called. Asked my two math-nerds. Not so much to serve my interest as gained knowledge since last calcing. Just like with the LoZPillar, it was only when debating Scream after knowing more about the thing that I got the new weight and distance] Wouldn't mind seeing your workings for it if ya don't mind.

Urm.. meant the calcs not the weight. I just posted a clip of a person being subjected to its effect, and heres another of Balder being effected. So whats your opinion on the time power and skyscraper now?

Taking the wrong contents from my words. As in when the time came for Raziel to rip out the Heart he could. Ive watched the scene several times and blood comes from the right side under the pec, the hand wound is above and more centered at the sternum. So getting hit with the blade weakens a persons durability? If thats the claim is there proof that the Reaver does this.

Stubborn.. >: pot calling the kettle black much? -Somehow/Odd/Unknown- ..You really don't know how its done? Its pretty simple actually. Well if you have a concern for the weight besides disregarding it for a single assumption the by all means, do share. The energy from 45 tons at 40m/s would make Temp move 1.4m/s if 35k tons and 7m/s if 10k, not the 20m/s that it was. The energy doesn't make itself, which is needed w/ or w/o propulsion breaking down. Explanation for Temp getting for force to move like that? The only way it could move 20m/s like it did is if it weighed 180 tons which could only be true if it a) its only a shell and b) if the shell's density is 1/20th that or water. The only way your calcs can work is to ignore Newton's 1st and 3rd laws and not give a reason to why besides the faulty propulsion theory that would still need the energy to be launched horizontal at all.
Fun fact, you're accusing me of ignoring the tankers durability as with the force I'm stating it would destroy it, correct? Now thats interesting as you stand by your own figures that, in physically logical by irl standards, would mean you're doing that exact same thing you accuse me of; ignoring that that force would defeat the tankers durability. Just like how IRL a 300 tonner hitting stone with blade-like claws would plow his fist into the rock, not merely push it back. Or how a 300 tonner striking a person into a metal, that the metal would be torn apart or at least have dents. And how 300 tons of rocks falling under its own weight on to solid ground wouldn't bounce back up... Like I said, the tanker not breaking is just something that happens in its verse. The exact same thing happens when that tram-thing fell on her and she caught it. Irl thin base metal coming down with 200k joules would make Bayonetta spike right through it.

--------------
Makes sense, the monster part threw me off. Reading up its a shame they took this out of Defiance and got cancelled before getting it in the next sequel.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Its only a Red Herring when I ask for something totally unrelated to the point, asking to back up a claim is not one. Teleporting, being a act of fiction, works by its own set of rules per verse. So if you believe that teleporting in the LoK verse would allow a character to 'port mass into mass then evidence is needed.

Shape- rough ellipsoid. Dimensions- scaled from the lorry. Materials- outside is rock-like, inside must have something inside for it to move (aka not hollow) so assumed 1g/cm3. Besides assuming that something light makes up it inertia so that it can move everything else is at base the same method. It isn't that complex of far-fetched

Scenario's covering the 'what he gained', so assuming for now that Kain can do what Marcus can, when exactly has Marcus ever done the things we're asking for? If we haven't seen a better strength/necessary feat from Kratos then it can't be argued, but we have proof to say so with cutscenes and QTE's. Kain and Marcus do not have this proof. Soo Kain's MC has to be stronger even without proof? And Kain's MC has control over those limitations as he copied Marcus who.. hasn't shown to do so? Again, asking for proof to negate the quotes and lack of showings is not a Red Herring. Its asking you to actually show us Charm working against the quotes.

If you read my post you would know the density. 1) Never thought about Raziel's height until this debate where I had to look at more Kain and Raziel clips. 2) Assumed its height by eye-judging if the base was 4m long. 3) Had no clue what the formula was let alone what the shape was called. Asked my two math-nerds. Not so much to serve my interest as gained knowledge since last calcing. Just like with the LoZPillar, it was only when debating Scream after knowing more about the thing that I got the new weight and distance] Wouldn't mind seeing your workings for it if ya don't mind.

Urm.. meant the calcs not the weight. I just posted a clip of a person being subjected to its effect, and heres another of Balder being effected. So whats your opinion on the time power and skyscraper now?

Taking the wrong contents from my words. As in when the time came for Raziel to rip out the Heart he could. Ive watched the scene several times and blood comes from the right side under the pec, the hand wound is above and more centered at the sternum. So getting hit with the blade weakens a persons durability? If thats the claim is there proof that the Reaver does this.

Stubborn.. >: pot calling the kettle black much? -Somehow/Odd/Unknown- ..You really don't know how its done? Its pretty simple actually. Well if you have a concern for the weight besides disregarding it for a single assumption the by all means, do share. The energy from 45 tons at 40m/s would make Temp move 1.4m/s if 35k tons and 7m/s if 10k, not the 20m/s that it was. The energy doesn't make itself, which is needed w/ or w/o propulsion breaking down. Explanation for Temp getting for force to move like that? The only way it could move 20m/s like it did is if it weighed 180 tons which could only be true if it a) its only a shell and b) if the shell's density is 1/20th that or water. The only way your calcs can work is to ignore Newton's 1st and 3rd laws and not give a reason to why besides the faulty propulsion theory that would still need the energy to be launched horizontal at all.
Fun fact, you're accusing me of ignoring the tankers durability as with the force I'm stating it would destroy it, correct? Now thats interesting as you stand by your own figures that, in physically logical by irl standards, would mean you're doing that exact same thing you accuse me of; ignoring that that force would defeat the tankers durability. Just like how IRL a 300 tonner hitting stone with blade-like claws would plow his fist into the rock, not merely push it back. Or how a 300 tonner striking a person into a metal, that the metal would be torn apart or at least have dents. And how 300 tons of rocks falling under its own weight on to solid ground wouldn't bounce back up... Like I said, the tanker not breaking is just something that happens in its verse. The exact same thing happens when that tram-thing fell on her and she caught it. Irl thin base metal coming down with 200k joules would make Bayonetta spike right through it.

--------------
Makes sense, the monster part threw me off. Reading up its a shame they took this out of Defiance and got cancelled before getting it in the next sequel.

Your asking me to back up a point with evidence you "belive" is relevent but I do not, you have yet to explain your theory behind why a person cannot teleport into an area, even if theres mass in that area. My take on it is that all that will happen is the same when Nightcrawler does it, solid piecies will become fused together, liquids may merge etc, but theres no reason to belive Kains magic will as I said tell him "no you cant".

What do you mean it needs something inside it to move exactly? Also a lot of it is not necessery solid, its got piecies hanging from it, decorations etc.

But what your asking for is irrelevent to the discussion isnt it unless your talking about the agression thing, which is as I said a gameplay mechanic which are completly ignored and besides Marcus clearly has shown to be able to dominate human minds, even the typical agressors since almost all of his mind controlled pawns are soldiers/warrior priests. But its a red herring because gameplay mechanics are irrelevent.

No problem, here:




Intestingly, Darkstorm Zero thinks the obelisk could be as much has 50 meters tall give or take 10 meters, I said 20 because even the small pyramid on top looks taller than raziel although we dont see the pillar from Raziels perspective, only the camera angles. The concensus seems to be at least 15-20 meters in height.

My opinion is that this is the only real reason to debate this further, since its the only thing I can see giving Bayonetta the win. I am still doing a lot of calculations on it at the moment, calculating a skyscraper moving like that is difficult to say the least since something that heavy regardless of the strength put into it would not "move" like that but I am getting there. Using Balder as the example (the most certain one) she can slow/freeze someone in time for a good few seconds, how she can pull off this move in the first place is dependant on her being able to cross the field (may not be possible if theres a long distance between the pair in this fight) AND charge up the attack to hit Kain with the force. All this before her time powers run out, we must also assume she is in range of Kain with her time powers. Also take into account Kain may have put his time powers on as well, this would not manipulate her time duration exactly since its coming from her energy so it may take her a whole minute or longer to do something that takes 20 seconds, and a whole minute could be too long. A lot of things could give Kain the defence required (mist form, teleport, time powers of his own) to survive the attack assuming that it can destroy him if it hits him physically.

I may need help from you (I have failed so far) in finding the density of bone compared to skin. Also, how large in square inches would you say bayonettas forehead/top of head is?

Can you show me a screenshot please, I have also watched it several times and blood comes from under Kains entire hand which he uses to hold his entire chest (its a big hand/claw), I dont see any actual cut on Kains model. My claim is that whatever the Wraith blade did, its vastly more than just a physiacal wound since its not a physical blade and its the difference between Raziel not being able to scratch Kain (SR2 intro FMV) and tearing through his flesh and bones for his heart (Defiance). The wraith blade being a vastly powerful weapon, and being what struck Kain beforehand in the rough area is the only difference between the two scenes that could favour Raziels success.

not necesserily, hell I have been sitting here calculating different measurements for Bayonettas skyscraper feats and the Tanker and have just conceded to time powers affecting Kain and may even give Bay the win when I am done and those are all more complicated imo than the force of an oil tanker which is a real vehicle that we know the weight of. My calc takes into account mass and energy in motion required to send Tempentia down, this cannot be argued what can however is why this happened to Tempentia but only suggestions not facts can be considered. Well I succumbed to the idea behind the Tanker not breaking just to push the argument on, tbh I suggest the same thing with Tempentia, perhaps thats just how the "verse" did it OR for some unkown reason Tempentia being an angelic being has a tiny weight for his size.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Youve not seen Marcus mind control many human beings across the city? Marcus proves it for me what Kain can do.

I've only seen that in gameplay; is that suddenly allowed now? Go ahead and prove Marcus can do what you're claiming, then forget it and read the manual again.



Vampires evolve, yes. Please quantify this. If you can't do it, I'm afraid you can't accurately predict what will happen to those abilities. It's not gameplay mechanics, when it says Kain can only control "non-aggressive" characters, unless you can prove that's false.



In gameplay only, though. Cutscenes show Marcus arguing with Sarafan, notably not mind controlled, so I'm not sure why you seem to think this helps you. The only person Marcus Charms in cutscene in the Bishop, a non aggressive character. You'd still need to prove Kain can do more than that.




Prove he'll use an ability he never uses? Not that funny, I think. Just wondering if CIS is on, in which case Kain is unlikely to use them at best. It's not really within his character to do so immediately.




We seen how the gifts are used where? In gameplay only? What with the fact that these abilities are seen only only in gameplay and literally nowhere else, the only way to determine basic function would be to look at gameplay. "What it generally does in the game" is still gameplay, and still has the limits you're ignoring. I'd stop trying to cherry pick gameplay if I were you. The choices here are the limited abilities we actually see, or no abilities at all. Of course, you're probably going to try a third option, the abilities we dont see but are still stronger, though that option doesn't actually exist.




Marcus may not make explosions, but Magnus sure does, as is seen in game. You can "exchange" all you want, but the ability shown is not simple heat. It's an explosion. When Kain uses it, there is fire, regardless of the target. Fire and explosions are different reactions for different things, this at least show that Magnus generates far more pressure than Kain could ever hope to.




Sebastian's dark gift is not "speed." Sebastian's dark gift is "berserk." Sebastian and Kain never demonstrate even roughly the same abilities save for the most superficial similarity that you keep clinging to, yet the abilities are still clearly different. This just establishes from multiple examples that Kain's ability is generally weaker than the vampire he took it from, in canon.




I don't care about the fight, I care about you misrepresenting Kain's powers as they are clearly shown to work. Stop trying to exaggerate them beyond what they are shown to do, and I'll just go away.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I've only seen that in gameplay; is that suddenly allowed now? Go ahead and prove Marcus can do what you're claiming, then forget it and read the manual again.



Vampires evolve, yes. Please quantify this. If you can't do it, I'm afraid you can't accurately predict what will happen to those abilities. It's not gameplay mechanics, when it says Kain can only control "non-aggressive" characters, unless you can prove that's false.



In gameplay only, though. Cutscenes show Marcus arguing with Sarafan, notably not mind controlled, so I'm not sure why you seem to think this helps you. The only person Marcus Charms in cutscene in the Bishop, a non aggressive character. You'd still need to prove Kain can do more than that.




Prove he'll use an ability he never uses? Not that funny, I think. Just wondering if CIS is on, in which case Kain is unlikely to use them at best. It's not really within his character to do so immediately.




We seen how the gifts are used where? In gameplay only? What with the fact that these abilities are seen only only in gameplay and literally nowhere else, the only way to determine basic function would be to look at gameplay. "What it generally does in the game" is still gameplay, and still has the limits you're ignoring. I'd stop trying to cherry pick gameplay if I were you. The choices here are the limited abilities we actually see, or no abilities at all. Of course, you're probably going to try a third option, the abilities we dont see but are still stronger, though that option doesn't actually exist.




Marcus may not make explosions, but Magnus sure does, as is seen in game. You can "exchange" all you want, but the ability shown is not simple heat. It's an explosion. When Kain uses it, there is fire, regardless of the target. Fire and explosions are different reactions for different things, this at least show that Magnus generates far more pressure than Kain could ever hope to.




Sebastian's dark gift is not "speed." Sebastian's dark gift is "berserk." Sebastian and Kain never demonstrate even roughly the same abilities save for the most superficial similarity that you keep clinging to, yet the abilities are still clearly different. This just establishes from multiple examples that Kain's ability is generally weaker than the vampire he took it from, in canon.




I don't care about the fight, I care about you misrepresenting Kain's powers as they are clearly shown to work. Stop trying to exaggerate them beyond what they are shown to do, and I'll just go away.

I dont recall that ever happening in gameplay, I recall fighting mind controlled enemies in gameplay but you seem to be trying to twist words now. I prefer reading the "lore" in a games manuel, I usually learn the gameplay mechanics and commands later on in the game.

I never said I could accuratly predict what would happen, although I can see based on what Marcus says that in even in a few hundred years powers can "grow enormously". Yes it is , you keep grasping at exactly the same mechanics and ignoring that fact as if youve got some "factual lore based canon" backing you up.

Hang on, why would I? wheres Bayonettas vast mental powers beyond the bishops defence?

If CIS is on then Kain is far more likely to start slinging his most powerful abilities sooner than Bay who even when fighting with some seriousness uses nothing but guns and punches......

Every ability in one way or another is shown in cutscenes, playing silly buggers wont impress or convince me of your claims so I suggest you stop the insult. Faustus leaps and jumps distance in a lot of his scenes, sebastion runs at speeds everywhere and the charmed (including the bishop youve already mentioned) of Marcus' are present as well, infact I dont think theres anyone other than maybe the Hylden witch do not show off their dark gift before Kain acquires it and even if they did not the fact Kain shows it at some point to get past an area in the game proves it. We know what it "generally does", most spells have some kind of a description.

No we dont disregard abilities just because they dont have a cutscene but we dont have to resort to mechanics either. You seem to have some major confusion between gameplay, gameplay mechanics and canon lore and how each can be used as part of a logical argument. If youve been fooled into believing only a cutscene is canon then your sorely mistaken.

Well he would wouldnt he, hot pressure in rocks breaks them apart. Hows magnus in your little theory going to generate more power with a dark gift Kain now has? that makes no logical sense....if anything logic dictates Magnus being insane would have less control.

"berserk" is what Kains ability is labeled as in the dark gift interface, point being is that speed is the typical application in sebastions case. Nothings established that at all, your belief is that just because Kain did not use an ability in exactly the same way its not as strong, which is illogical, if that were true Kain "would not" have acquired that vampires dark gift.

So you admit your only presence in this thread is to try and create some personal argument not even relevent to the thread and you have no intension of argueing about the topic? The amount of times I could leap into threads and pick apart your over proportion of abilities concerning LoZ purely for personal interest beyond the thread are numerous but I dont, its more along the lines of baiting/trolling if anything especially when you break rules to try and use gameplay mechanics like you are.

Like you would have to explain why one can. The point is its physically impossible to find the real yes or no with teleportation, so for us to use something the fiction would have to provide us with that evidence.

We know its solid on the outside for the rock-like body, we know its flesh-like inside as when you destroy its face it shows its real head that is quite fleshy.

When has Marcus controlled someone thats aggressive towards him?

1) Raziel is 1.75m to Kain who is 1.9m 2)....the hells the 'blocks' part O.o? 3) Its not a cuboid, its a pyramidal frustum. A cuboid of your dimensions gives a volume of 336000000cm3, a frustum of the same dimensions gives a volume of 186495617.7cm3.. 1.8x difference. So with your figures in a frustum, not a cuboid, would make it from 945 tons to 525 tons.

Clearer images. <- We can confirm 3 things: 1) (First image) Raziel's height = length of the top 'square'.. when he's standing up straight. 2) (Second image) That, given the angles, the height up to that black line is twice the base's width . 3) (Both images) The obelisk three sections; the pyramid at the top and the two blocks separated by that black line. Height = both blocks height at 1400cm]

If it helps there are about 90 floors there . So roughly 333m tall if one story is 3.7m like with skyscrapers, with the small width being 1/6th the length at 55m with the other width being 2/3 that at 36m. All quick glances. Empire State has a volume of 1,047,723.32m3, this one would have a volume of 659,340m3 which makes the Empire State 1.589x the size. With the Empire State weighing 365,000 tons this one would weigh 229,704.216 tons. If its wrong at least theres a rough guideline.
Well we know it can last several seconds, think the vid you gave a while ago would be the one, to get cover Kains max distance (or Kain's max range) that I don't know so I'll use an example of 50m. Would take her 1 second (in panther form would only take 0.3) to get to him and a further 4 seconds in front of Kain to charge her attack. She would only need 5 seconds of Witch Time to pull of the attack. Mist and teleport wont help as assuming he activates it at the same time that she does all she'd have to do it turn it off and what for him to come back. His time powers on the other hand will... slightly. Usually it would take Bayonetta 0.004 seconds to charge up and strike, if Kain can manage to or already is using his time powers then Bay would be charging in front of him for 0.02 seconds. Peak human is 0.1.

In g/cm3: Fat 0.9, Muscle 1.06, Bone 1.7-2. Bones density depends on the type of bone. The fat/muscle is more tricky as it depends on which fat/muscle, how much fat the person has and/or if they have stronger or weaker muscles.

Here you go. (dear lord I need to use PNG next time .__.) Red lines show the path, red circle the wound area and the green circle the area that Raziel stabbed. The only property for the Wraith Blade here is its ability to absorb souls, unless Kain's physical body is dampened by his soul being effected the only thing that would make Raziel stabbing Kain easier is if it make a large gash/tear over the area that he was to stab. So when Kain was cut in BO2 and his evolved sons in SR, how does this compare?

>.< No fair you conceded to the time thing after I posted. Personaly Im finding it hard to agreed with taking the 3rd stage in the feat and not the 4th one (1st- her arm. 2nd- the angel.) Similar to how the force of the tanker is less than that of Temp, the force of the angel is less than the tanker. So to accept the 2nd to 3rd stage is to accept the 3rd to 4th stage. That stuff happens in every verse where we calc things. Bayonetta, LoK, LoZ, DMC, GoW, KH, FF etc all have things like this.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Like you would have to explain why one can. The point is its physically impossible to find the real yes or no with teleportation, so for us to use something the fiction would have to provide us with that evidence.

We know its solid on the outside for the rock-like body, we know its flesh-like inside as when you destroy its face it shows its real head that is quite fleshy.

When has Marcus controlled someone thats aggressive towards him?

1) Raziel is 1.75m to Kain who is 1.9m 2)....the hells the 'blocks' part O.o? 3) Its not a cuboid, its a pyramidal frustum. A cuboid of your dimensions gives a volume of 336000000cm3, a frustum of the same dimensions gives a volume of 186495617.7cm3.. 1.8x difference. So with your figures in a frustum, not a cuboid, would make it from 945 tons to 525 tons.

Clearer images. <- We can confirm 3 things: 1) (First image) Raziel's height = length of the top 'square'.. when he's standing up straight. 2) (Second image) That, given the angles, the height up to that black line is twice the base's width . 3) (Both images) The obelisk three sections; the pyramid at the top and the two blocks separated by that black line. Height = both blocks height at 1400cm]

If it helps there are about 90 floors there . So roughly 333m tall if one story is 3.7m like with skyscrapers, with the small width being 1/6th the length at 55m with the other width being 2/3 that at 36m. All quick glances. Empire State has a volume of 1,047,723.32m3, this one would have a volume of 659,340m3 which makes the Empire State 1.589x the size. With the Empire State weighing 365,000 tons this one would weigh 229,704.216 tons. If its wrong at least theres a rough guideline.
Well we know it can last several seconds, think the vid you gave a while ago would be the one, to get cover Kains max distance (or Kain's max range) that I don't know so I'll use an example of 50m. Would take her 1 second (in panther form would only take 0.3) to get to him and a further 4 seconds in front of Kain to charge her attack. She would only need 5 seconds of Witch Time to pull of the attack. Mist and teleport wont help as assuming he activates it at the same time that she does all she'd have to do it turn it off and what for him to come back. His time powers on the other hand will... slightly. Usually it would take Bayonetta 0.004 seconds to charge up and strike, if Kain can manage to or already is using his time powers then Bay would be charging in front of him for 0.02 seconds. Peak human is 0.1.

In g/cm3: Fat 0.9, Muscle 1.06, Bone 1.7-2. Bones density depends on the type of bone. The fat/muscle is more tricky as it depends on which fat/muscle, how much fat the person has and/or if they have stronger or weaker muscles.

Here you go. (dear lord I need to use PNG next time .__.) Red lines show the path, red circle the wound area and the green circle the area that Raziel stabbed. The only property for the Wraith Blade here is its ability to absorb souls, unless Kain's physical body is dampened by his soul being effected the only thing that would make Raziel stabbing Kain easier is if it make a large gash/tear over the area that he was to stab. So when Kain was cut in BO2 and his evolved sons in SR, how does this compare?



Not really because your the one who thinks its a problem, theres no logical reason to think it wont work because theres no logic behind teleportation really. I gave a compromise where objects would simply form together or such not far from Nightcrawlers.

I can imagine the bishop being fairly hostile although thats not the point, the whole "aggressive" thing is the gameplay mechanic in the manuel, theres nowhere in the game or in general logic that confirms it in canon. Otherwise why would Marcus even try and mind control Kain if for 200 years hes not been able to mind control someone aggressive towards him? kain resisted due to pure resistance/his mind being too strong not because he was aggressive.

2) A rough estimation to help me calculate how many of those small blocks (the one that ends at Raziels eye level) in the whole "frustum". Can you show me the way to calculate a frustum? a site or something specific please? Ok when I have more time I will calculate the 525 tons, although I cannot see how it can lose almost 400 tons just because the sides are slightly sloped so I would like to look into that.

Aye but the problem is with those images and most we can get our hands on is that Raziel is much closer to the camera than the obelisk so that when Raziel is on the ground next to it it looks bigger. I will take some screenshots myself, I have a slightly brighter/clearer video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzjcIGsPsBE&feature=related#t=3m50s

Me and artifical glory debated about this, we agreed theres between 50-60 floors, several of my calculations math it as large as the Jhon hancock building which has about 60 floors. Its harder to tell because its a "piece" of the building and more so because Balder looks larger than a normal man so when you see the top of the spire its hard to calculate since it either looks too small or too big. At the moment, we have:



Rough calculation. Calculations for about 500-600 meters considering the general consensus from several KMC members who I asked (about 4 but I wont mension them out of politeness) was between 500-700 meters distance travelled in the 3-3.5 seconds.

Heres your estimated calc for it using your numbers:





Why would it only take her 1 second to cover 50 meters? I never thought she was that quick on her feet normally, a panther for instance would take longer than a second to cover 50 meters wouldnt it? Do we know she can just "turn it off"?, it seems to me it turns off when shes finished an action over an area but I dont know if it finishes on her whim and can start again or if its a "reaction" based thing, e.g. if she needs it its like spider senses (as strange as it sounds) rather than something she thinks of "activate witch time/deactivte" etc, either way shes got about lets say 5-10 seconds of it, 0.2-1 seconds or more can be taken up if she keeps turing it on and off to make up for Kains actions and more than that will be divded over Kains time power so you could end up using up her witch time before she even starts the charge up attack. I think we can assume she can only do this charge attack once or at best twice.

I cant see the actual wound, only the area youve circle where the wound is belived to be. Thats not the only property, yes it takes souls but its raziels combined "spiritual" essence not just a blade, considering it can even wound Kain means its hitting him with the equivellent force of millions of tons and Kain holds his whole chest, theres magical/spiritual powers not just physical ones at work here as well as the elemental forces Raziel has enchanted the reaver with (it has the power of the old vampire guardians within from the Temple) so trying to deduce where Kain was cut is unimportant. I am sorry I dont understand, Kain in BO2 is completly different than the one here, thousands of years of evolution different.

The third stage is where the energy from stage 1 and 2 is found in to strike Temp and it concerns the speed and weight of a real world object which is why I started here making it easy to math the force. Maybe but its only the Bayonetta verse that has skyscraper head butting or launching oil tankers, most feats in other games are a little more straight forward and not quite so styalised, DMc has some "style" moves but Bayontetta takes it to the extreme.

I doubt anyone here would think that a teleporter can do this. Exactly, theres no logical reason to say it can just as theres no reason to say that it can't. The sole evidence is that the LoK verse says.

We didn't see how he got the Bishop, though its safe to say that he did it in the same way as the rest; get them from a distance when they're not looking. It may not have a cutscene to say but out the two sides only the against has anything to state its claim.

Ohhh I see. Pyramidal Frustum Volume = ⅓height*(area of one base+area of the other base+√(Base 1*Base 2)) = (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+√(350cm^2*175cm^2)) = 466.666*(122500+30625+√3751562500) = 466.666*(122500+30625+61250) = 466.666*214375 = 100,041,524cm3 compared to a 350*350*1400 shape that gives 171,500,000cm3 The reason it went from 700 to 300 is because a) The height went from 20m to 14m, thats 0.699x700 for 490 tons to start and b) a frustums size is 0.583 that of a cuboid, 0.6x490 gives just under 300 tons.

Tun wir haben deutsch zu sprechen jetzt? Actually that gives good dimensions; 3:56- that 'line' is about 0.75x Raziel's height, line=131.25cm. 3:58- the line is 1/5 the height of the next line up, half way point=656.25cm=1312.5 for full height. If the line is actually 0.8x his height then the full height would be 14m again. Doesn't change that much even with slight altered figures.

Cba to work out the skyscraper size atm, will check size later. *stares at maths* *puts on my nerd face* .........kinda forgot what this means thread wise >-> <-< that mean she can harm him by your calcs?

Bayonetta can run as fast as a speeding car, (Bayonetta ran past the trucks as fast as Luka did speeding past them) thats 50m/s running speed. Panther form is faster than base. Does so in gameplay (I think) and in some scenes when she just offs it when its not needed like when she uses it on the rocks, rocks that she know weren't going to hit her. For that time frame check the vid just posted, 0:25-1:20 for an easy 55 seconds of Witch Time. 1 sec to for your on/off thing, 1 sec to get to him, 4 secs to charge 6 secs total with a good 49 seconds to spare. For Kain he'll be hit in 0.006 seconds still with 0.004 of her standing in front of Kain, 0.03 total if he manages to activate his powers. But still only 0.02 of Bay standing in front of him.

The blood trail points to an origin in the red circle, the wound is in that area. Well for Raziel's claws to get through the Wraith Blade would need to weaken Kain physically for his claws to have an easier time. Theres nothing to say that the blade can weaken someones physical defenses/durability. Juust checking. And what about Melchiah, Turel, Dumah and Janos? The 'sons' being at 500+ years old, compared to Kain being staying in his present form type of body since before he was 500, and Janos who is even older.

Each stage gets the energy from the stage before. No stage equals the others power. None of those verses follows the exact rules of physics, even if not on her verses level it still means the same thing.

Originally posted by BloodRain
I doubt anyone here would think that a teleporter can do this. Exactly, theres no logical reason to say it can just as theres no reason to say that it can't. The sole evidence is that the LoK verse says.

We didn't see how he got the Bishop, though its safe to say that he did it in the same way as the rest; get them from a distance when they're not looking. It may not have a cutscene to say but out the two sides only the against has anything to state its claim.

Ohhh I see. Pyramidal Frustum Volume = ⅓height*(area of one base+area of the other base+√(Base 1*Base 2)) = (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+√(350cm^2*175cm^2)) = 466.666*(122500+30625+√3751562500) = 466.666*(122500+30625+61250) = 466.666*214375 = 100,041,524cm3 compared to a 350*350*1400 shape that gives 171,500,000cm3 The reason it went from 700 to 300 is because a) The height went from 20m to 14m, thats 0.699x700 for 490 tons to start and b) a frustums size is 0.583 that of a cuboid, 0.6x490 gives just under 300 tons.

Tun wir haben deutsch zu sprechen jetzt? Actually that gives good dimensions; 3:56- that 'line' is about 0.75x Raziel's height, line=131.25cm. 3:58- the line is 1/5 the height of the next line up, half way point=656.25cm=1312.5 for full height. If the line is actually 0.8x his height then the full height would be 14m again. Doesn't change that much even with slight altered figures.

Cba to work out the skyscraper size atm, will check size later. *stares at maths* *puts on my nerd face* .........kinda forgot what this means thread wise >-> <-< that mean she can harm him by your calcs?

Bayonetta can run as fast as a speeding car, (Bayonetta ran past the trucks as fast as Luka did speeding past them) thats 50m/s running speed. Panther form is faster than base. Does so in gameplay (I think) and in some scenes when she just offs it when its not needed like when she uses it on the rocks, rocks that she know weren't going to hit her. For that time frame check the vid just posted, 0:25-1:20 for an easy 55 seconds of Witch Time. 1 sec to for your on/off thing, 1 sec to get to him, 4 secs to charge 6 secs total with a good 49 seconds to spare. For Kain he'll be hit in 0.006 seconds still with 0.004 of her standing in front of Kain, 0.03 total if he manages to activate his powers. But still only 0.02 of Bay standing in front of him.

Theres a logical reason to say he can teleport, because he can, the only question is from your side of the argument saying he cant teleport into solids. If it says nothing, thats not evidence to say it Kains magic tells him no.

Theres no grounds for them looking or not being a difference, the whole "aggressive" argument only has a gameplay mechanic description from a manuel to state its claim which is completly ignored in here. I have Marcus directly trying to influence Kain, also the belief you can only MC someone when their not looking does not even make sense.....

But the obelisk is not a simple Frustum, it has a perfectly square block at the bottom, then a slight frustum with barely angled sides in two blocks with a pyramid on the top. Not sure how it can be calculated unless you calculated each block as about 6 meters, then added the 1.8 meters from the lower block and pyramid height. The difference between the diagrams in those links you gave me and the SR obelisk is that the angles of the sides of the lowest block is the same as a cube/cubeoid, the further large blocks are not much different although I admit barely sloped wheras thosei n the links are calculating frustum that are majorly sloped which is throwing me. You say a "frustums" size is 0.583 of a cuboid but what frustum? the one with the tiny gradiant in the Lok block or those in the diagrams that almost look like pyramids?

I dont know many words in German so I hope not. I will calculate the 14 meter, 300 tons obelisk but I am still skeptical, I feel something is being miscalculated and until I understand how to calculate frustum after studying those links you sent or until you have a very laments term calculation to help me understand it I find it hard to belive it has gone down by as much as 4-500 tons just because its got a slight angle to it, maybe if it was as at a major gradiant like those in the diagrams on that link but 500 tons cannot be in the small piecies of missing material.

What it means threadwise:



And heres the calculation assuming it is only 300 tons:



Comparing the data, bayonettas strongest feat using your weight for the skyscraper and the weakest Data for Kain, bayonetta would need about 2.29 million tons extra PSI to break/damage Kains skin. Using my initial calculation on the skyscraper vs your initial calculation on the obelisk she needs nearly 5x as much force per square inch. So what would happen at the moment if Bay used this attack is that she would launch Kains light body across the battlefield unharmed (but at ridiculous speed) and Bay herself would instantly explode into piecies from her own forces not being absorbed/bested by Kains body. Sort of how the Skyscraper gets smashed into ruin as it hits balder after she head butts it only its her bodies durability and small female form getting the force shes harnessing...ouch.

Hm, can you show me this please? I recall it happening but I want to see for myself how fast she was in relation to the vehicles in question. They would have to be moving at about 100mph+ and for her to keep up with them for it to be at around 50 m/s.

Watching it again, I wonder whether the fact theres no wound visable is because the blood is coming from Kains mouth as he yells or the reaver hitting Kains durability is dealing some sort of spiritual/magical damage rather than fully physical. I may try to get some still screenshots myself, fact is max strength Raziel cant scratch max strength Kain yet Reaver slashed Kains body is<<<Weak Raziels slowly moving claw, the reaver slash being the only difference between the scenes that could give Raziel an advantage which does not surprise me because aside from the soul reaver itself at the end of the game its the verses most powerful weapon on all levels (magical, spiritual etc). What about them? most of them have deevolved and gained only a few extra gifts from their "devolution" because they cannot take Kains corruption like Kain can, hence why Melchiah is a rotting corpse of a creature, Turel and Dumah are mishapen as well (although Dumah has the power of being revived). janos does not evolve like Kain and his sons, I dont recall why, perhaps because hes one of the original winged race and was created differently (he was born, not artifically made).

The stage that strikes temp (teh strike being stage 4?) is the stage with the oil tanker, it equels the force of revious stages before it contacts Tempentias body hence how energy travels. Arguable, I feel much more comfortable calculating 100-1000 tons based around blocks being moved a few meters a second rather than skyscrapers that have 1000 variables in physics calling her feat impossible regarldess of strength.

Teleportation isn't logical. Alright, this is the odd one out from everything we're discussing after all.

There are several 'maybe' and 'supposedly' from that, the top two being the difference in their effects like what Scenario is covering, or if doing so would be as effective as how he normally does it and the other being the ''weak-minded'' quote that Kain hints to.

Take it the 'situation a-b' part wasnt meant to be in the quote part. Theres not much left to debate about it really, the volume is a pyramid+frustum+cuboid. Each shape we can get a volume for. 700 tons can only come from a 20m cuboid, two things its not.

That if you believe that she has no way of applying such power to her arms, I see no reason to think this. Headbutt<Punch. Not that the sword will shatter from hitting Kain theres two other points; she can use Pillow talk which has an energy blade (cant really shatter) and is much more powerful then Shuraba, second is that as her body can take to force she can just use her nails a la Raziel. Sharp and with her durability.

Doubt they'd be moving slow on a motorway. Even if you measure the speed it comes up the same. Panther form was to beat it, normal form was matching it. And the max speed of a normal car is 110mph/50ms, speed she was shown to be faster than when she landed on the car. Vehicle's are not a good indication against someones speed, even fast characters like Dante and Shadow prefer to use cars and bikes when they can. Even with super-speed and teleporting they still take to the wheels.

Doubt spiritual energy to a physical body is the same as friction/heat energy to metal. Their would need to be a direct link to soul and physical durability for it to work like that. Kain knew that Raziel could kill him and to that extent knew the Blade could kill him too, doesn't mean he knew how it works or its effects. Blood coming from a cut isn't just a gameplay cutscene fluke, the same with DMC(where ever scene is FMV). Id say its most likely that Turel is stronger than he used to be, definate that Dumah is. Fragment means little as some of the sons can do thing Kain cannot, like swim. Dumah could shake the whole area with a punch and runs faster than Raziel, he's physically above him, something that isn't that far of a stretch. He may not have the powers and things that Kain and Raziel do but his whole form change was to physically increase himself. There are many scenes against it; Melchiah gets cut by some blades, Turel gets cut by the Reaver, Dumah gets impaled by some sticks, Janos gets cut by a blade, Raziel gets impaled by the Reaver, Kain gets stabbed by the Reaver and then by claws. 7 instances of 500+ year old vampires getting cut to one instance suggesting the opposite is true.

Well unless it was moving at 760m/s it didn't equal the tankers force. No the tanker is only the middle chain, the final energy is the energy produced at the end of the chain ie Temp. We dont accept the Angels joules as we know that the tanker moved, yet we're not to accept Temp moving and stop at the tanker even if the relation between the Angel+Tanker is the same as the Tanker +Temp.

The relation of skin, flesh, bone etc is different in different verse. For instance most fictions have it that if you can make a cut you can cut through any part of the body while some have it that the persons skeletal structure can take massive forces without breaking but skin gets easily cut. The verse would need to cover this.

Actually the formula stops at the entry point that keeps in contact with the body, not the whole body slice. Eg if you were to drag a knife point over something it wouldn't be the whole area you dragged the knife tip over, only what the knife tip was touching at any time. Not that hard to replicate the damage of getting his heart ripped out, something that knocked him out. Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match? If so that puts more restrictions on Kain than herself.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Teleportation isn't logical. Alright, this is the odd one out from everything we're discussing after all.

There are several 'maybe' and 'supposedly' from that, the top two being the difference in their effects like what Scenario is covering, or if doing so would be as effective as how he normally does it and the other being the ''weak-minded'' quote that Kain hints to.

Take it the 'situation a-b' part wasnt meant to be in the quote part. Theres not much left to debate about it really, the volume is a pyramid+frustum+cuboid. Each shape we can get a volume for. 700 tons can only come from a 20m cuboid, two things its not.

That if you believe that she has no way of applying such power to her arms, I see no reason to think this. Headbutt<Punch. Not that the sword will shatter from hitting Kain theres two other points; she can use Pillow talk which has an energy blade (cant really shatter) and is much more powerful then Shuraba, second is that as her body can take to force she can just use her nails a la Raziel. Sharp and with her durability.

Doubt they'd be moving slow on a motorway. Even if you measure the speed it comes up the same. Panther form was to beat it, normal form was matching it. And the max speed of a normal car is 110mph/50ms, speed she was shown to be faster than when she landed on the car. Vehicle's are not a good indication against someones speed, even fast characters like Dante and Shadow prefer to use cars and bikes when they can. Even with super-speed and teleporting they still take to the wheels.

Doubt spiritual energy to a physical body is the same as friction/heat energy to metal. Their would need to be a direct link to soul and physical durability for it to work like that. Kain knew that Raziel could kill him and to that extent knew the Blade could kill him too, doesn't mean he knew how it works or its effects. Blood coming from a cut isn't just a gameplay cutscene fluke, the same with DMC(where ever scene is FMV). Id say its most likely that Turel is stronger than he used to be, definate that Dumah is. Fragment means little as some of the sons can do thing Kain cannot, like swim. Dumah could shake the whole area with a punch and runs faster than Raziel, he's physically above him, something that isn't that far of a stretch. He may not have the powers and things that Kain and Raziel do but his whole form change was to physically increase himself. There are many scenes against it; Melchiah gets cut by some blades, Turel gets cut by the Reaver, Dumah gets impaled by some sticks, Janos gets cut by a blade, Raziel gets impaled by the Reaver, Kain gets stabbed by the Reaver and then by claws. 7 instances of 500+ year old vampires getting cut to one instance suggesting the opposite is true.

Well unless it was moving at 760m/s it didn't equal the tankers force. No the tanker is only the middle chain, the final energy is the energy produced at the end of the chain ie Temp. We dont accept the Angels joules as we know that the tanker moved, yet we're not to accept Temp moving and stop at the tanker even if the relation between the Angel+Tanker is the same as the Tanker +Temp.

The relation of skin, flesh, bone etc is different in different verse. For instance most fictions have it that if you can make a cut you can cut through any part of the body while some have it that the persons skeletal structure can take massive forces without breaking but skin gets easily cut. The verse would need to cover this.

Actually the formula stops at the entry point that keeps in contact with the body, not the whole body slice. Eg if you were to drag a knife point over something it wouldn't be the whole area you dragged the knife tip over, only what the knife tip was touching at any time. Not that hard to replicate the damage of getting his heart ripped out, something that knocked him out. Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match? If so that puts more restrictions on Kain than herself.

Scenario is not covering anything at the moment and scenarios basis as is the basis on this piece of the argument is based solely on gameplay mechanics that dont make sense considering the canon. If agression was relevent at all, Marcus would not have been surprised of failing, or even tried and weak mindedness is a point of view, he would probably call Bayonetta weak minded.

Well you would have to argue it, the fact she used an unusual part of her body like her head makes the suggestion that she did not use her arms/hands not possible we just dont know if she can use power like that. The sword will shatter from her just gripping it with a few thousand tons of force, let alone millions and if shes using Pillow talk then physical force is irrelevent. Theres no indication bayonetta can take any more force than perhaps Fortitudos weight which is iirc the heaviest shes had hit/on her. We dont know how her nails work, or how durable they are their nothing alike to LoK vampire claws. Theres a lot of assumptions required to belive she can do anything than head butt Kain or punch him at best, actual weapons would shatter.

Well they look slow so either their speed limit is low or speed in this case is not shown too well I dont know. Yes but if the feat in question shows the bike being faster than her AND the speed gauge showing around 100+ mph iirc then its a strong indication.

Well their the properties of the reaver, magic, spiritual energy, elemental powers (including fire). We dont know the facts behind it, only that it can. It does not matter, if their both under the belief they can destroy eachother with their weapons yet Kain in the FMV has no fear or worry while Raziel has no wraith blade out and just takes strikes theres a clear difference. No but if theres no wound at all visible then it is, perhaps there should have been physical damage but due to gameplay graphics just like in DMC theres resitrctions to how much damage they show. Your trying to make a case based on little real evidence, your assuming that just because their older, their just as powerful physically or more so than Kain/Raziel there is no indication of this. You cannot use one completly different character that has evolved differently because it cannot take Kains corruption, as I said Melchiah is soft and weak, Turel is unkown and Dumahs durability is unkown, we dont know when he was piked and it does not matter since its his words of pride vs Kains actual feats suggesting hes not as durable/strong as Kain.

I dont understand what your trying to claim here? point being is the tanker+speed=Tempentia down....thats it....

You just made that up......skin is softer than thick muscle/flesh which is far softer than Bone which in some cases can be stronger than concrete. The difference in Kain is enormous, theres no indication that Kains bones are softer than his skin and is a long reach in the hopes of giving Bayonetta a chance. Fact is, even if you can prove she can use a sword to slice in a sweep and penetrate Kain its going to just get stuck. Of course, the sword has no durability feats so it shatters as soon as she puts a few thousand tons into it.

If you try and put a knife through a piece of meat its going to slow down, especially if its a thick piece. For someone who can barely cut through Kains skin, shes not getting far through his flesh without it getting stuck, infact if anything shes going to lose her weapon because Kains body will start healing instantly around it as the sword slows down leaving her trying to yank her weapon from Kain, amusing to imagine yes because your likely to rip out a heart thats not even there

100% in character? Bayonetta who talks a lot, fights purely against angels because she favours aiding infernal powers (which Kain more closely resembles so she may see him as a demon and ask for work ) and when she gets busy, she never goes straight for the "time freeze" and charge up skyscraper attack.....infact even fighting Jeanne with some ferocity she fights at about peak human speed and with notihng but guns and fists iirc....

Kain on the other hand? how do you think Kain will react to what simply looks like a human? he will probably just want to slice her throat and drink her blood, he may TK her blood to him from range and she dies from internal bleeding while Kain gains whatever powers she posseses. Also if he took even some blood or uses Marcus' mind powers stated above he could find out what she is, and what shes capable of and will be the first to be on guard, he may end up killing her using his large arsenal of attacks before she even deems it worth using witch time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont recall that ever happening in gameplay, I recall fighting mind controlled enemies in gameplay but you seem to be trying to twist words now. I prefer reading the "lore" in a games manuel, I usually learn the gameplay mechanics and commands later on in the game.

The only time anyone is ever controlled at any time is in gameplay. Unless you want to disallow the ability entirely, you're going to have to allow gameplay to some degree, and that means Kain is subject to the gameplay limits. Mainly because nothing in the lore says Kain can control aggressive characters and in fact says the opposite.



You can't accurately predict what will happen. There ya go, nothing more need be said. You can either quantify "grow enormously" or concede that those words don't actually have any meaning here.



See, the thing is, you making a claim (Kain's Charm) that goes directly against established canon (the manual.) So before this goes any further, you need to prove that claim. Until that happen, no resistance is needed, as Kain's own limitation prevents the control.



Prove this. Cutscene Kain is an almost purely physical character that never flings spells.



Yes, and they are shown in ways that are clearly superior to Kain's versions. Marcus' Charm is only shown affecting non-aggressive characters, though, unfortunately for you. Kain showing it in required sections also confirms it to be weaker. And yes, most spells do have some kind of description, like this one:



Your claims are ignoring this canon description, so I suggest you prove beyond any doubt that it is false. Otherwise, you can't make your claim.



Strange, that's what you seem to be doing. You seem at least a little bit confused, too, as you keep telling me to stop using gameplay right before you point to a section where Kain is required to use abilities. And, of course, you keep ignoring the canon manual description that you still need to prove is false for your argument to function.



More power =/= more control. Have you heard of the term "retard strength?" It's pretty offensive, but it arose from the fact that mentally disabled people have trouble controlling their own strength, and often use more than is necessary, not less. This can be demonstrated if you've ever read Of Mice and Men. But I digress, you're trying to imply that Magnus being insane having less control would mean he can't generate much power, which does not logically follow. Further, why don't you prove Magnus has less control or power? It'll be pretty hard to do, what with Magnus demonstrating much more powerful explosions as compared to Kain's fire.



You're trying to imply arms = legs, which does not follow. Kain is demonstrably slower than Sebastien in any case, and you cannot assume Kain has the same ability if he does not show it. You'd need to prove that Kain is faster than Sebastien to get anywhere, which you can't actually do because there's nothing to support it.



Not even close, so don't try to strawman. I'm in this thread because you made a claim that you need to own up to and prove. Stop ignoring the canon manual or prove that it's false, then prove that Kain can control aggressive characters. I don't really care what you do in other threads; if you have something to say, go ahead and say it. That's what a forum is for.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The only time anyone is ever controlled at any time is in gameplay. Unless you want to disallow the ability entirely, you're going to have to allow gameplay to some degree, and that means Kain is subject to the gameplay limits. Mainly because nothing in the lore says Kain can control aggressive characters and in fact says the opposite.



You can't accurately predict what will happen. There ya go, nothing more need be said. You can either quantify "grow enormously" or concede that those words don't actually have any meaning here.



See, the thing is, you making a claim (Kain's Charm) that goes directly against established canon (the manual.) So before this goes any further, you need to prove that claim. Until that happen, no resistance is needed, as Kain's own limitation prevents the control.



Prove this. Cutscene Kain is an almost purely physical character that never flings spells.



Yes, and they are shown in ways that are clearly superior to Kain's versions. Marcus' Charm is only shown affecting non-aggressive characters, though, unfortunately for you. Kain showing it in required sections also confirms it to be weaker. And yes, most spells do have some kind of description, like this one:



Your claims are ignoring this canon description, so I suggest you prove beyond any doubt that it is false. Otherwise, you can't make your claim.



Strange, that's what you seem to be doing. You seem at least a little bit confused, too, as you keep telling me to stop using gameplay right before you point to a section where Kain is required to use abilities. And, of course, you keep ignoring the canon manual description that you still need to prove is false for your argument to function.



More power =/= more control. Have you heard of the term "retard strength?" It's pretty offensive, but it arose from the fact that mentally disabled people have trouble controlling their own strength, and often use more than is necessary, not less. This can be demonstrated if you've ever read Of Mice and Men. But I digress, you're trying to imply that Magnus being insane having less control would mean he can't generate much power, which does not logically follow. Further, why don't you prove Magnus has less control or power? It'll be pretty hard to do, what with Magnus demonstrating much more powerful explosions as compared to Kain's fire.



You're trying to imply arms = legs, which does not follow. Kain is demonstrably slower than Sebastien in any case, and you cannot assume Kain has the same ability if he does not show it. You'd need to prove that Kain is faster than Sebastien to get anywhere, which you can't actually do because there's nothing to support it.



Not even close, so don't try to strawman. I'm in this thread because you made a claim that you need to own up to and prove. Stop ignoring the canon manual or prove that it's false, then prove that Kain can control aggressive characters. I don't really care what you do in other threads; if you have something to say, go ahead and say it. That's what a forum is for.

Gameplay limits=gameplay mechanics, the ability actually being present in gamepaly and what it does has a solid foundation in canon.

Dont have any meaning? you must have missed the part where Marcus says his powers have grown to the point where in his words "he can charm all living things" , you seem to have selective reading....

It does not go against estabished canon so I will stop you there. Also, thers no limitation that prevent control, not unless she gets a pretty good resistance feat.

Whats "cutscene" Kain got to do with anything? you make it sound like the cirumstances that Kain has faced in cutscenes are the same as those here, although heres Bayonettas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mHM7oAhBI&feature=related#t=2m9s

You cannot create a logical argument that Kain is going to treat Bayonetta the way he does Raziel.

Kains version is their version, who do you think hes getting these Dark gifts from?

What the....before I even seriously answer your counter here, show me a scene canon to "lore" where Kain hints or displays (or Marcus hints or displays) selecting his target with a "cursor"? because I think youve stumbled into the "controls" page....based on your logic Kratos has to press circle after weakning something to mount it. Again your trying to insult me, your doing it in a subtle fashion but poorly executed against someone whos played the actual games which you dont seem to have done.

Your trying to compare the control of pyrokinesis to physical strength, e.g. crushing mice because you dont know when not to use force? (I have read of mice and men) that notion does not even make sense...neither does physical strength and pyrokenesis but my point was that targeting something with some power would require some sense.

Not really I am implying enhanced speed is enhanced speed regardless of limbs used. I am not assuming anything, I have the canon of the games lore pointing out that Kain devours the dark gifts of the other vampires AND a hylden, what they display is their dark gift, thats it theres nothing too complicated other than your grasping at straws (or a gameplay mechanic).

Suggesting your sole purpose here and pointing out your not debating the thread and going off-topic based on your statement is not a strawman since it has nothing to do with the argument, its a accusation which I am well in my rights to point out. Also your entire gameplay mechanics play on words is ended by the initial video shown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwbIQcd6IVE#t=42s

Speak of the devil.

Its an odd theory that she can only charge her head with that power . Doubt it. Nope not irrelevant, in the end it gives more damage than Shuraba. If she can headbutt a skyscraper without taking damage then she's pretty durable. For her nails to cut through anything more than a tiny layer of skin we know its sharper than normal, for them being a part of her we know its as durable as her. What are the assumptions? That she can charge her hands which we see, that she can hold a sword/use nail which we see or... think thats it actually. Literally no assumptions.

(=18.7m/s=42mph*3=56m/s=125mph>=the around 110/120 figure given)=speed of Luka<Base Bayonetta=cutscene>gameplay. 50m/s is fine. And don't let the speed lines and effects fool you, on the bike she's still passing the vehicles at the same speed as when she was running until she gets to the 'red' area. The speeds are; (mph) 0 10 40 80 120 150/160 200 and whatever the red thing is... and its only when she gets past 120 that she's going faster than her movement. At full speed shes riding 2-3x faster then her running speed while not wasting any effort on running.

And that has what do to with getting a direct link between soul and physical defense/durability? It really does. There is a difference between knowing something can kill you to knowing what its going to do to you. Kain knows that the blade is Raziel, can suck souls and resists the wheel so can kill him regardless of that.. Takes more to say that Kain knows that his defense would drop after getting struck with it. Kain did not know of some durability weakening effect but knew that Raziel would and could rip his heart out. So what you're saying is that even though Raziel slashed him causing blood to pour out, making Kain hunch in pain grasping the wound.. that it didn't happen? Just because the dev's didn't draw a wound on (one that would just heal over so it'd be a waste of time back then) doesn't mean it wasn't there.. we see him get slashes, blood come out and react to the slash. Raziel in 500 years became a 300 tonner, difference is that he had more soul. Dumah had the same time, didn't have as much soul but changed specifically for strength. With a single punch he can shake the whole area, something that didn't even happen when the 300 ton obelisk hit the ground. His form now is much stronger than Raziel, most likely stronger long before. He body would be ably to take his own physical blows, yet still got impaled.

..The point is that you're agreeing that it was the 'tanker+speed=Tempentia' (even if the the 1st and 2nd law go against it) when the real equation is angel+speed=tanker+speed=Tempentia+speed. To stick with the tanker is to ignore both the previous and following changes in force. By the VG method even in the face of anomalies we go by the final and/or peak result, which in this case is the weight of Temp at its speed that required its own weight and own speed. Game physics isn't perfect, don't expect it to be so.

Did I now.. are you saying that fictions laws of biology = irl laws? His durability is what its shown to be, unless you have the figures of 'Kain's or LoK density' then it wont work. Any verse that has supernatural properties has its own rules. In fact the only way to get the answer to to see his bones resisting something much higher than his muscles otherwise it could be anything from 1.5 to 1,000x tougher. Yep, proven. Burden of proof, gonna need evidence to why someone cant use their fictional weapon at full power. She didnt break concrete with the headbutt, why would she break the blade? Proof is needed.

...what are you talking about? His regen speed < Her attack speed, so no. Failed to get the point again, ''replicate the damage'' not do the exact same thing.

So you are trying to drive this point. If Kain's the enemy, he's the enemy. And she enters Witch Time for any given reason. He'd probably fail to counter her speed, not using TK right away as per character and be full victim to her time powers. Anyway, its not a 100% in character match.

-------------------------------------
Poor Lennie. >:

(Butting in) Basically someone that isnt thinking straight wont be able to control the effects of their power. Happens in other games when the guy goes nuts and cant control the how much power they need to use. And seriously... drop that Kratos comparison. Its not even close to the same issue here.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Speak of the devil.

Its an odd theory that she can only charge her head with that power . Doubt it. Nope not irrelevant, in the end it gives more damage than Shuraba. If she can headbutt a skyscraper without taking damage then she's pretty durable. For her nails to cut through anything more than a tiny layer of skin we know its sharper than normal, for them being a part of her we know its as durable as her. What are the assumptions? That she can charge her hands which we see, that she can hold a sword/use nail which we see or... think thats it actually. Literally no assumptions.

(=18.7m/s=42mph*3=56m/s=125mph>=the around 110/120 figure given)=speed of Luka<Base Bayonetta=cutscene>gameplay. 50m/s is fine. And don't let the speed lines and effects fool you, on the bike she's still passing the vehicles at the same speed as when she was running until she gets to the 'red' area. The speeds are; (mph) 0 10 40 80 120 150/160 200 and whatever the red thing is... and its only when she gets past 120 that she's going faster than her movement. At full speed shes riding 2-3x faster then her running speed while not wasting any effort on running.

And that has what do to with getting a direct link between soul and physical defense/durability? It really does. There is a difference between knowing something can kill you to knowing what its going to do to you. Kain knows that the blade is Raziel, can suck souls and resists the wheel so can kill him regardless of that.. Takes more to say that Kain knows that his defense would drop after getting struck with it. Kain did not know of some durability weakening effect but knew that Raziel would and could rip his heart out. So what you're saying is that even though Raziel slashed him causing blood to pour out, making Kain hunch in pain grasping the wound.. that it didn't happen? Just because the dev's didn't draw a wound on (one that would just heal over so it'd be a waste of time back then) doesn't mean it wasn't there.. we see him get slashes, blood come out and react to the slash. Raziel in 500 years became a 300 tonner, difference is that he had more soul. Dumah had the same time, didn't have as much soul but changed specifically for strength. With a single punch he can shake the whole area, something that didn't even happen when the 300 ton obelisk hit the ground. His form now is much stronger than Raziel, most likely stronger long before. He body would be ably to take his own physical blows, yet still got impaled.

..The point is that you're agreeing that it was the 'tanker+speed=Tempentia' (even if the the 1st and 2nd law go against it) when the real equation is angel+speed=tanker+speed=Tempentia+speed. To stick with the tanker is to ignore both the previous and following changes in force. By the VG method even in the face of anomalies we go by the final and/or peak result, which in this case is the weight of Temp at its speed that required its own weight and own speed. Game physics isn't perfect, don't expect it to be so.

Did I now.. are you saying that fictions laws of biology = irl laws? His durability is what its shown to be, unless you have the figures of 'Kain's or LoK density' then it wont work. Any verse that has supernatural properties has its own rules. In fact the only way to get the answer to to see his bones resisting something much higher than his muscles otherwise it could be anything from 1.5 to 1,000x tougher. Yep, proven. Burden of proof, gonna need evidence to why someone cant use their fictional weapon at full power. She didnt break concrete with the headbutt, why would she break the blade? Proof is needed.

...what are you talking about? His regen speed < Her attack speed, so no. Failed to get the point again, ''replicate the damage'' not do the exact same thing.

So you are trying to drive this point. If Kain's the enemy, he's the enemy. And she enters Witch Time for any given reason. He'd probably fail to counter her speed, not using TK right away as per character and be full victim to her time powers. Anyway, its not a 100% in character match.

-------------------------------------
Poor Lennie. >:

(Butting in) Basically someone that isnt thinking straight wont be able to control the effects of their power. Happens in other games when the guy goes nuts and cant control the how much power they need to use. And seriously... drop that Kratos comparison. Its not even close to the same issue here.

Aye

Thats all we really see, you showed me the full video so I did not know what you were showing, can you give me the timing please? its completly irrelevent because its energy, not physical, therefore regardless of her strength the heat its "energy" gives off will be the same no matter how hard she swings it. not really because she struck it, it did not strike her, she hit it with a force greater than its force in slow motion, if it struck her the same thing that happened to Balder would happen to bay, the skyscraper would be smashed to ruin assuming she had that kind of durability. Ive yet to see this hand charging or that its anywhere alike to that ability, so your argument is now shes using her finger nails to fight with?

Ok fine, its just an observation as I said I concede her being able to cover the distance.

The link is that the more souls Raziel devours the stronger he gets and the reaver is pretty much his spirit after absorbing all this+the guardians, your still trying to argue the reaver as a normal sword almost as if you can make sense out of it. Whats all this "defence will drop" stuff? it was a suggestion as to why it weakened Kain for Raziels attack, there could be inumerable reasons both magical, elemental or energy based that weakeend Kain, fact is the reaver is that damned powerful and Kain knows it. Of course Kain knew Raziel could, hes just wounded him greatly, both of them look like they can barely stand after their battle. So your claim now is that Dumah is stronger because he can shake the ground with his punches? also why would he be able to take his own blows?

No laws go against it and if they do, then thats sods law I am afraid and theres no point in even calculating it because the speed+weight of the tanker is the force required to knock Temp down, the angel+throw in the stages before=tankers velocity in stage 3 which is required to knock Temp down. Bayonettas physics are possibly more or less nonexcistent and are chained to the developers whims on what would look cool at any given moment, be thankful were even calculating feats for Bay.

unless shown/said otherwise we assume certain laws are followed, were calculating physics as if their real so biology comes under the same boat otherwise we can throw all out calculations out the window from speed to weight. You have the burden of proof to prove LoK has an unrealistic durability model and that characters bones are just as durable as their bodies, trust me you wont prove anything. I think its funny that as soon as Bayonettas means of attack are down to almost null the weapons are "fictional" therefore that means their indestructable? well this is a fictional skyscraper......its properties mean its nowhere near the weight of real ones? sword=featless durability=smash!

His regen is "wounds seal almost instantly" and thats without wielding the reaver, her attack speed is "stuck in a few inches of Kains hip because she cant get it through".

You brought up this whole "its 100% in bays favour" rubbish now your talking about how its not in character...clever man.....and not being in character will still not help her ,seems she will either kill herself by using too much force, destroy her equipment or be murdered by one of Kains attacks.

-----------------------------------

Its exactly the same issue, you just have problem seeing that. Your using a gameplay control method, simple fact its irrelvent and is actually against the rules to use mechanics.

Stupid video, you told me you were timed... *sigh* 1:43. Still gives physical damage superior to that of Shuraba. According to Newton's third law of motion, and the usual around here, Bayonetta would have to be able to take that force... in this instance with her face. Theres a charge is in the vid. Nup, my argument is that she uses Shuraba. If for some reason that doesnt work she can use the superior Pillow Talk. If no swords are taken for some reason then can just use her nails.

Nothing to do with reducing durability. No Im going by what I know; it deals physical damage and has the power to devour souls. For your idea to work it needs proof that it can munch on a soul/cause magical damage to make the persons physical defenses/durability drop. So there isn't actually any confirmed or likely reason to how can allow Raziel to impale Kain. Yeah, he know Raziel could kill him not the effects that the Wraith Blade has on his durability. Point is Kain didn't know that the blade can make it so Raziel would be able to stab him, yet knew that Raziel could stab him. Partially my claim, his punch > 300 ton obelisk falling, his strength > Raziel's. General thing that a person can take their own hits unless contradicted by verse actions. Dumah seems to be setting the verse rules for taking high blunt force but following one of the vampire weaknesses of being impaled.

Newton's first and third law of motion. So you admit that the physics in the verse is messed up but wont accept the Temp calc for your idea on physics? To admit to the truck you ignore that the angel throw would not be able to in irl standards make the truck move at that speed. Angel gives 1MJ, truck gives 35MJ, Temp gives 6,350MJ. No stage allows the next to happen... yet it does happen.

Wait, body density doesn't even change in fiction otherwise all the superhuman characters would weigh hundreds of tons with the density increase. Its the fictional toughness that you'll need, something that can't be calculated. ...null? So strength vastly above Kain's + an edge + Witch Time is.. null? Nope it means go get me some proof that it will break.

''instantly'' means absolutely nothing without feats. Lol stuck in him? I don't even...

''Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match?'' Read carefully before making claims. Proof that she can't take her own force, proof that her weapons will break under her strength, examples of what Kain can do besides the charm argument that will put down a girl who is faster and stronger with greater time manipulation.

Team 2. Bayonetta is hands down the most powerful one here and War can't make up for his lackluster partner.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Stupid video, you told me you were timed... *sigh* 1:43. Still gives physical damage superior to that of Shuraba. According to Newton's third law of motion, and the usual around here, Bayonetta would have to be able to take that force... in this instance with her face. Theres a charge is in the vid. Nup, my argument is that she uses Shuraba. If for some reason that doesnt work she can use the superior Pillow Talk. If no swords are taken for some reason then can just use her nails.

Nothing to do with reducing durability. No Im going by what I know; it deals physical damage and has the power to devour souls. For your idea to work it needs proof that it can munch on a soul/cause magical damage to make the persons physical defenses/durability drop. So there isn't actually any confirmed or likely reason to how can allow Raziel to impale Kain. Yeah, he know Raziel could kill him not the effects that the Wraith Blade has on his durability. Point is Kain didn't know that the blade can make it so Raziel would be able to stab him, yet knew that Raziel could stab him. Partially my claim, his punch > 300 ton obelisk falling, his strength > Raziel's. General thing that a person can take their own hits unless contradicted by verse actions. Dumah seems to be setting the verse rules for taking high blunt force but following one of the vampire weaknesses of being impaled.

Newton's first and third law of motion. So you admit that the physics in the verse is messed up but wont accept the Temp calc for your idea on physics? To admit to the truck you ignore that the angel throw would not be able to in irl standards make the truck move at that speed. Angel gives 1MJ, truck gives 35MJ, Temp gives 6,350MJ. No stage allows the next to happen... yet it does happen.

Wait, body density doesn't even change in fiction otherwise all the superhuman characters would weigh hundreds of tons with the density increase. Its the fictional toughness that you'll need, something that can't be calculated. ...null? So strength vastly above Kain's + an edge + Witch Time is.. null? Nope it means go get me some proof that it will break.

''instantly'' means absolutely nothing without feats. Lol stuck in him? I don't even...

''Is that suggesting that Bay's going to be 100% in character for the match?'' Read carefully before making claims. Proof that she can't take her own force, proof that her weapons will break under her strength, examples of what Kain can do besides the charm argument that will put down a girl who is faster and stronger with greater time manipulation.

Theres no indication that shes using anywhere near as much power there since the fleshy pod does not look that strong. Physical damage? how do you know? just because Pillow talk is a higher level weapon? Newton does not cover this at all, aside from the fact flying skyscrapers in slow motion being head butted did not come up in his theory, its oppoesite/equel reaction were talking about here where in Bay hits it with more force than it has therefore its deflected, we see it all there. The argument that force will be felt by Bay is shown when its felt by Balder, the skyscraper smashes (although technically it should have smashed when she hit it, bringing forth the belief that it may be her magic charge that launched it, not any physical force).

Physical damage, your forgetting elemental from all the enchancements it has e.g. earth, fire etc. Thats just one idea, all it needs is the evidence shown and thats whatever it did, it weakened Kain enough for Raziel to pierce him, whatever suggestion we can come up with none of it can have proof. There is one confirmed reason, the soul reaver simply is confirmed as powerful by Kain, its the strongest weapon in the verse and it weakens Kain, if you hit a piece of wood with a hammer and it cracks then punch it, you would be morel ikely to succeed after its cracked. Raziels already sliced and weakened him enough, so of course he knew, hes holding his chest from damage/weakness also what do you know of Kains knowledge? the guy has held the soul reaver sword for millenia as his weapon of choice and your sitting there trying to argue about how Kain "does not know" something as if its an important point, fact is it did and logically Kain does know just as much as Raziel. That makes no sense whatsoever...just because the obelisk did not create some sort of wave of force its not as heavy? theres no evidence for any of this. Thats not general at all (you seem to be talking about how a person can at least lift their own weight, not at least take their own punch), I dont think if my perfect clone punched me in the chest I could take it infact I think I would double over like most people from their own punch.....

Just like how a skyscraper would not happen, Bay makes such ridiculous leaps of physics for the sake of style its impossible to gauge however, I think its fair to allow a close comrpomise for the sake of the thread by using the energy in stage 3 required to knock Temp down, the previous two stages giving stage 3 its energy. Stage 3 cannot have more energy than previous stages, especially when all the power comes from Bay in stage 1.

Weight, density, durability is incredibly high, if were not going to calculate it properly theres no point in any of this. I dont have to prove against a no limits fallacy here, your pretending Shuraba is invincible is not convincing me of anything. I may as well claim Kain when his at full strength is invincible and requires the reaver to take away my no limits fallacy funny thing is I would have at least some ground to stand on with that no limits fallacy, you dont.

That is Raziels statement on vampire anatomy, also as he says later with the reaver "it made him invincible" because it healed him as soon as a wound was made....and you think Bay who needs to charge up an attack to deal any damage at all to kains outer skin layer let alone his bones/meat will be able to charge up enough power to use her invincible (in your no limits fallacy) sword to hack through his entire body? you see thats why these debates are pointless, people are too proud to admit when their wrong. I am sitting here using time to calculate a lot of feats for your side of the argument, even silly things like skyscrapers being used as beach balls and I am happy to concede to things like her speed, witch time working yet youve not budged on any front at all..your trying to argue how shes going to use her nails to slice through Kains entire body and because that wont work, you want to bring in a no limits fallacy on the sword AND claim the biology in Kains universe means his bones are no stronger than his outer skin layer just so you dont have to concede on a point....what is the point in posting if your not going to conede on anything like I have done?

Because shes never taken her own force, infact you could argue how much physical force was actually used since we see a lot of clear magical influence that may weigh up whether much physical force was actually going through the attack. Kain just has to stand there at the moment and she will "break on him". But his offence has barely even been argued, any one of his spells from calling lighting from the heavens to draining her blood would give him the win, and your claim that she is going to dodge every physical attack is unfounded..being able to dodge one bullet does not mean you can dodge any and all attacks over a long period. Bay has to rely on her physical powers, Kain has a fair list of abilities that will make Bays close combat skills null (regardless of his physical ability) by giving him distance while having a long list of broken abilities from soul devouring, blood draining, TK, time manip of his own etc.

Originally posted by ares834
Team 2. Bayonetta is hands down the most powerful one here and War can't make up for his lackluster partner.

Is this some form of bait or do you actually belive (and have an argument) suggesting War is a more useful team member than Kain? because if you have that argument, I may be able to use war as part of my argument considering I am argueing team 1.....

The video isn't to show the same level feat but to show that she can charge her arms and use her nails as blades. Higher damage and more powerful. Equal and opposite reaction is the third law, the action being her attack, equal reaction being the skyscraper being sent flying and the opposite reaction is the energy transfer back into her body. If you cant take your own hits your fist/head would shatter on impact. Magical argument need further proof that she actually has the ability to do so.

Ok, and what has elemental enhancements got to do with this? The Reaver has no durability weakening effects, it chews on souls, thats it. A body can't be compared to wood. In this you'd have to have damage in one area making it easier to pierce in another. He's holding his chest because he just got slashed, basic response. No way he could know what would happen if he got slashed by the Wraith Blade or knew of this supposed power that didn't exist until this page. Raziel sucks souls, the Reaver sucks souls. That is the extent of what they know. Not that the obelisk is light, that Dumah creates more force in his strikes. No thats average lift strength, nothing to do with this. That the chest... in the example its your clone punching your hand. If a person couldn't take their own punches their fist would break on impact. Just like how a full punch to a persons head can severely damage your fist due to the energy transfer and roughly equal bones smashing.

Yep, none of these fictitious feats would happen. But they do. So we calc them. And stage 3 cannot have more energy than 2, nor 2 from 1.

No, its fictional durability. It it was density then even characters like Sora, a skinny anime/FF teen, would weigh a ton if his density was that high. Think how much Kratos would weigh if his density matched his durability irl. A no limits fallacy is me saying that her sword can take any force the universe can give, not that Bayonetta can use her sword. Burden of proof, its your claim so Id like to see something that suggests her sword would break on here,

So? Words like instant and invincible are no limits fallacies. Fast healing wounds =/= instant. Gonna need something that says his healing speed is above her attack speed. Actually Im completely set on the idea that normal Bayonetta can harm him, just seeing how she'd fair with your assumptions and restrictions. Let me just look at this again.. you calced one feat that you want and the skyscraper that took a few seconds to do, and conceded to what exactly? That we see Bayonetta running faster than a car and witch time holding people? The only issue was that their was doubt in the first place. You concede because there were no other explanations, theories or unproven ideas. And what about the rest? We see Temp move but you don't want it. We see her punt a skyscraper and you think it some magic force. If you could show me some feats of Kain's that need no further explanations, theories or any unproven ideas then maybe we'd all concede to your points.

Her face didn't explode, she can take it. Distance is moot, time is weaker, strength is less, the rest are < her speed < her witch time. And if she gets caught in TK she has those quick summons to aid her.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The video isn't to show the same level feat but to show that she can charge her arms and use her nails as blades. Higher damage and more powerful. Equal and opposite reaction is the third law, the action being her attack, equal reaction being the skyscraper being sent flying and the opposite reaction is the energy transfer back into her body. If you cant take your own hits your fist/head would shatter on impact. Magical argument need further proof that she actually has the ability to do so.

Ok, and what has elemental enhancements got to do with this? The Reaver has no durability weakening effects, it chews on souls, thats it. A body can't be compared to wood. In this you'd have to have damage in one area making it easier to pierce in another. He's holding his chest because he just got slashed, basic response. No way he could know what would happen if he got slashed by the Wraith Blade or knew of this supposed power that didn't exist until this page. Raziel sucks souls, the Reaver sucks souls. That is the extent of what they know. Not that the obelisk is light, that Dumah creates more force in his strikes. No thats average lift strength, nothing to do with this. That the chest... in the example its your clone punching your hand. If a person couldn't take their own punches their fist would break on impact. Just like how a full punch to a persons head can severely damage your fist due to the energy transfer and roughly equal bones smashing.

Yep, none of these fictitious feats would happen. But they do. So we calc them. And stage 3 cannot have more energy than 2, nor 2 from 1.

No, its fictional durability. It it was density then even characters like Sora, a skinny anime/FF teen, would weigh a ton if his density was that high. Think how much Kratos would weigh if his density matched his durability irl. A no limits fallacy is me saying that her sword can take any force the universe can give, not that Bayonetta can use her sword. Burden of proof, its your claim so Id like to see something that suggests her sword would break on here,

So? Words like instant and invincible are no limits fallacies. Fast healing wounds =/= instant. Gonna need something that says his healing speed is above her attack speed. Actually Im completely set on the idea that normal Bayonetta can harm him, just seeing how she'd fair with your assumptions and restrictions. Let me just look at this again.. you calced one feat that you want and the skyscraper that took a few seconds to do, and conceded to what exactly? That we see Bayonetta running faster than a car and witch time holding people? The only issue was that their was doubt in the first place. You concede because there were no other explanations, theories or unproven ideas. And what about the rest? We see Temp move but you don't want it. We see her punt a skyscraper and you think it some magic force. If you could show me some feats of Kain's that need no further explanations, theories or any unproven ideas then maybe we'd all concede to your points.

Her face didn't explode, she can take it. Distance is moot, time is weaker, strength is less, the rest are < her speed < her witch time. And if she gets caught in TK she has those quick summons to aid her.

Anyone can use their nails to fight, does not mean its as powerful or as successful as a sword or her skyscraper attack. Yeh, you did not actually counter anything, I will agree its more powerful than a normal swing of shuraba, physical power is irrelevent here. The energy does not transfer back, you added that on, shes already sent it through an object and that object was launched, it would only come back if the object was too durable, like Kain (although Kain will be launched due to being light as well). No....I can punch an object without my fist shattering/breaking, you have to be more durable than the surface your striking. We see it happen....its the same evidence for you to suggest it was physical, only more suggests it was magical.

everything since its not just a physical wound, its spiritual, magical and elemental so trying to argue its only doing physical damage is wrong. You missed the point. They also know its an incredible powerful weapon that Kain admits can kill him, it makes sense hes so weak after the slash simple facts, your making a lot of assumptions and beliefs against what we actually see. Theres no evidence to suggest he creates more force, we dont see Raziel striking the ground, force traveling like that does not mean hes stronger. I think what you have got confused with is the fact durability of something else such as bone vs flesh (in your hand/nerves) can cause harm, because its hard this is not the case here.

The ones in bayonettas universe, no...and I calc them, you try and argue how energy "has to be" more because of your belief of Tempentias weight. It does not have to have more energy, its equel to the previous actions.

Yes well, this is a fictional skyscraper so no weight clearly...your sort of argueing one thing above and then proving to be hypocritical in here when it does not suit you. Then maybe his density does not match his durability, so? that does not negate my argument, kains/bayonettas skin or muscle is no larger or denser than a peak human but they are more powerful. No your claiming her sword (one she picked up, she does not use it at all canonically iirc) can take forces it has no feats for.......

ironic you calling out no limits fallacies but the truth is that Raziels wounds healed almost as soon as they were made thanks to the reaver, kains wounds heal fast according to Raziel as soon as the wound is made so chances are any small damage she can make is trivial. I know your compeltly set, which is why theres no point in continueing the debate since you dont even want to take into account any evidence. I conceded to using these feats at all, I conceded to witch time, speed I could probably sit here as stubborn as you are and continue claiming the cars were moving extremely slow, or that the witch time is not as quick as you belive or that theres no evidence of her using witch time for long periods on living entities and only inanimate objects. In your eyes perhaps, theres no question about the claims I have made either since their all there in front of us yet you cannot see it from anyones point of view other than your own it seems. You take for granted what I have conceded to but when faced with hard facts you make up silly excuses based around no limit fallacies, beliefs on fictional durability and even go so far as believing shes going to use her nails

We see a magic force and I have calculated it as a physical feat, thats called compromise, what have you done? whined about how "fictional durability" makes Kains bones softer than his skin. If you want to play hard ball I could ask for a long list of things and completly disregard every hilarious "skyscraper volley ball" feat. I can guess your answer to this, some lowly retort on how pushing a few tonnes of blocks in LoK is comparable to playing ball with a skyscraper no doubt?

Yeh right because peoples fists explode when they throw/punch objects, you know theres a lot of evidence to suggest she used mostly magic, not physical force to move the skyscraper. Wrong, youve made no explanation, anyone can list a lot of Kain>Bay etc, does not help you or convince me.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Gameplay limits=gameplay mechanics, the ability actually being present in gamepaly and what it does has a solid foundation in canon.

Yet no actual feats that put it beyond the gameplay limits. It's quite simple: show me, whether cutscene, story, or lore, Kain controlling an aggressive character. If you can't do that, you can't make the claim.



You must have missed the part where Kain states he's only been practicing on "dull mortal fools with their full of commerce and dung." It's pretty obvious Marcus doesn't actually know the full extent of his power and is just bragging.



The limitation is stated to be aggressive characters, anything without a weak mind, or someone that is not a "dull mortal fool" and you know the rest. Those are currently the established canon, and you claiming otherwise goes against it; pretty simple. Bayonetta is demonstrably aggressive, and is not shown to be weak minded or having her head full of commerce and dung. If you can find some way to prove Bayonetta is specifically weak minded or something, that would work.




What was the point of the video? I'm simply saying that Kain does not demonstrably go for his strongest powers immediately. He usually talks or goes physical, as opposed to spell slinging and mind control. Bayonetta seems likely to talk as well, and then shoot him, so...yeah.



Why would I need to? Kain talks to pretty much everyone, he stopped to banter with the Pillar Guardians a little, and make a declaration to William before attacking. Of course, he was younger, then, but not much seems to have changed.



And here I thought we'd already established his versions are demonstrably different. You remember Magnus and Sebastien?



Not really, you seem to like misrepresenting my argument. I never at any point claimed there was a literal cursor, simply that the target characters available are limited. The cursor is a mechanic yes, and one that represents this thing characters tend to do called "aiming," and unless you're going to argue that Kain doesn't actually aim then the cursor is a fine abstraction. Similarly, the characters that can't be controlled are a fine abstraction for Kain's limitation in the ability. After all, he can't read minds through the dark gift, can he?

For Kratos, the circle button is yet another abstraction for Kratos choosing to mount the whatever it is he's mounting. He can also believably show it who's boss (this "weakening" phenomenon) so it will fear and listen to him. Justify it however you want, just stop with this Kratos red herring.




I don't think I ever claimed that one. I was more questioning the fact that you seemed to think that Magnus being insane would give him less control and that this would somehow make it so he could generate less power. See here:



You asked how Magnus would generate more power, then concluded that Magnus' insanity would give him less control. You seem to imply that control and power generation are related, with Magnus having less control, and...what? Less power because of it? That's why I brought up the book, with less control usually leading to more power. Maybe I did imply that pyrokinesis and strength were similar here, but you'd still need to prove that Magnus being insane would directly result in him having less power. Especially since Magnus actually displays the stronger ability, creating explosions while Kain uses the weaker fire.



And that doesn't exactly follow. Sebastien does not display the enhanced arm speed Kain does, and instead displays leg strength, attacking primarily through kicks, jumping, and running on the wall. He obviously has greater mastery of the ability than Kain, not only moving faster but able to use it for jumps and kicks, while Kain simply moves his arms faster. It's a completely different limb, and Kain can't do as much as Sebastien with it.



Not really, Marcus was rather conclusively proven wrong. Have you played through the chase recently? Marcus actually approaches Sarafan Knights and argues with them momentarily, slowing himself down. He stops to tell them to be on the look out for Kain, and has to tell them not to attack him. He demonstrably does not use his Charm ability for this, despite the fact it would be both faster and more efficient. Heck, he Charms the priests, is he not able to order them around?

It's really rather telling that Marcus would waste time arguing with a knight when he has mind control powers. Occam's razor would dictate he simply can't.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yet no actual feats that put it beyond the gameplay limits. It's quite simple: show me, whether cutscene, story, or lore, Kain controlling an aggressive character. If you can't do that, you can't make the claim.



You must have missed the part where Kain states he's only been practicing on "dull mortal fools with their full of commerce and dung." It's pretty obvious Marcus doesn't actually know the full extent of his power and is just bragging.



The limitation is stated to be aggressive characters, anything without a weak mind, or someone that is not a "dull mortal fool" and you know the rest. Those are currently the established canon, and you claiming otherwise goes against it; pretty simple. Bayonetta is demonstrably aggressive, and is not shown to be weak minded or having her head full of commerce and dung. If you can find some way to prove Bayonetta is specifically weak minded or something, that would work.




What was the point of the video? I'm simply saying that Kain does not demonstrably go for his strongest powers immediately. He usually talks or goes physical, as opposed to spell slinging and mind control. Bayonetta seems likely to talk as well, and then shoot him, so...yeah.



Why would I need to? Kain talks to pretty much everyone, he stopped to banter with the Pillar Guardians a little, and make a declaration to William before attacking. Of course, he was younger, then, but not much seems to have changed.



And here I thought we'd already established his versions are demonstrably different. You remember Magnus and Sebastien?



Not really, you seem to like misrepresenting my argument. I never at any point claimed there was a literal cursor, simply that the target characters available are limited. The cursor is a mechanic yes, and one that represents this thing characters tend to do called "aiming," and unless you're going to argue that Kain doesn't actually aim then the cursor is a fine abstraction. Similarly, the characters that can't be controlled are a fine abstraction for Kain's limitation in the ability. After all, he can't read minds through the dark gift, can he?

For Kratos, the circle button is yet another abstraction for Kratos choosing to mount the whatever it is he's mounting. He can also believably show it who's boss (this "weakening" phenomenon) so it will fear and listen to him. Justify it however you want, just stop with this Kratos red herring.




I don't think I ever claimed that one. I was more questioning the fact that you seemed to think that Magnus being insane would give him less control and that this would somehow make it so he could generate less power. See here:



You asked how Magnus would generate more power, then concluded that Magnus' insanity would give him less control. You seem to imply that control and power generation are related, with Magnus having less control, and...what? Less power because of it? That's why I brought up the book, with less control usually leading to more power. Maybe I did imply that pyrokinesis and strength were similar here, but you'd still need to prove that Magnus being insane would directly result in him having less power. Especially since Magnus actually displays the stronger ability, creating explosions while Kain uses the weaker fire.



And that doesn't exactly follow. Sebastien does not display the enhanced arm speed Kain does, and instead displays leg strength, attacking primarily through kicks, jumping, and running on the wall. He obviously has greater mastery of the ability than Kain, not only moving faster but able to use it for jumps and kicks, while Kain simply moves his arms faster. It's a completely different limb, and Kain can't do as much as Sebastien with it.



Not really, Marcus was rather conclusively proven wrong. Have you played through the chase recently? Marcus actually approaches Sarafan Knights and argues with them momentarily, slowing himself down. He stops to tell them to be on the look out for Kain, and has to tell them not to attack him. He demonstrably does not use his Charm ability for this, despite the fact it would be both faster and more efficient. Heck, he Charms the priests, is he not able to order them around?

It's really rather telling that Marcus would waste time arguing with a knight when he has mind control powers. Occam's razor would dictate he simply can't.

Gameplay limits are irrelevent though so since were talking canon, mechanics are outof the question. Its quite simple, read the part where gameplay mechanics are irrelvent then drop this nonsense, then take into account logic in the video below.

Marcus confirms growth in his ability which is the point. Kain has shown he has more mental resistance than "dull mortal fools", its not his aggressiveness towards marcus that saved him, it was his mind being stronger, Bay does not have that.

Thats not a limit in canon, only in gameplay, weak minded is a point of view, in this case Kains, again as I said he would probably say the same about Bay. If you want to argue character then no, she is not aggressive to begin with.

Point being that she talks a lot and even when serious uses fists and guns not many powers at all. Kain has no real demonstration of him fighting at full power since becoming an Elder.

He has no reason to talk to Bay, all he knows is she is to his mind a human, he talks to the guardians for various reasons although tbh most conversations are short lived and when hes defeated them like how he mocked moebius before chopping his head. Everything since Kain had become an Elder has mostly been around Raziel and Kains manipulations so hes not going to attack Raziel with much force at all.

Magnus using pyroenesis and Sebastion using speed, both of which Kain gains. Your trying to toy with the idea that just because Kains targets are generally different that their not the same power. If I picked up a ball and punched it, then picked up a ball and kicked it...I am still using physical forces just in different ways but its the same force.

Your quoting the entire gameplay mechanic there and then, all of that is a mechanic/controls/limitations within the gameplay. You cannot cut piecies from it that you like and use it as if it was stated in the "story" section or spoken by a character. I dont know if he can read minds or not using it, considering Marcus could I would think so.

"believably show it whos boss", thats an interesting addition...Kain can believably dominate minds with aggression not logically making any indication of them resisting anything. Its not a red herring, its me pointing out a gameplay mechanic in another game that makes your use of one foolish, you cant seem to understand that.

The way I see it, what magnus uses (heat) is a form of controlling energy, you concentrate energy to make it more "intense" and powerful, therefore its not like strength where you can mentally (or with a lack of mental perception) misjudge the use of it. I think its funny how you keep trying to state Kain is using fire and Magnus is not or that one is more powerful than the other...

If Kain simply used the same power but in his legs he would be able to do the same as Sebastion, since its the same power. You cannot claim just because Kain uses it in-game on his arms that somehow Sebastion cannot or Kain cannot do what sebastion does. Its the same dark gift, also iirc Sebastion does punch, the main factor being "speed".

You see the priests being charmed and ordered in that video but you miss the point. Kain is agressive towards Marcus, deadly aggressive to the point of wanting him dead yet Marcus does not belive in his 200 years of experiance that this aggression is any barrier. Him talking to Sarafan makes no indication of limitation, infact the Sarafan at the time were not aggressive and iirc were simply being told to kill Kain on sight or something like that. I assume there are limits on the "number" of people he can simply take under his domination, what with all the warrior priests already doing his will, perhaps other guards are not necessery.

Anyone can use their nails to do what she did? They're obviously sharp and she can obviously charge her arms. Good so more powerful. 'Equal and opposite reaction.' No matter what you hit your fist will take he same force in. You want it to be magical? Find me some evidence that she has this kind of power.

Which doesnt explain how it makes it easier for Raziel to pierce him. For the reasons that it devours souls. Provide evidence saying the Reaver can to what you believe. 300 tons hits the ground has a small shake, Dumah hits it with more force. The same amount of energy is transfered.

All. 1<2<3.

No ones does. They're more durably, not more dense. You made the claim, back it up.

The words invincible and instantaneous are no limit fallacy words that are unquantifiable. Wrong contents, I know both games and the feats withing. I know both their strength, weaponry etc so I know that she can harm him. Speed and Witch time have nothing to argue or concede to though you may argue if you so chose. I haven't clung to no limits fallacies, fictional durability is verse-by-verse and she used her nails so she can use her nails.

Thats not a compromise for starters. Never claimed that. You've already done that.

Due to the fist being able to take the force. If the person could generate gigajoules but their body could not handle that force, the the body would break down under the force like it would by getting struck by the hit. She's never used something like this before so its doubtful. They could but it would deviate from the fact that his speed, strength and time powers are < Bayonetta's

Originally posted by BloodRain
Anyone can use their nails to do what she did? They're obviously sharp and she can obviously charge her arms. Good so more powerful. 'Equal and opposite reaction.' No matter what you hit your fist will take he same force in. You want it to be magical? Find me some evidence that she has this kind of power.

Which doesnt explain how it makes it easier for Raziel to pierce him. For the reasons that it devours souls. Provide evidence saying the Reaver can to what you believe. 300 tons hits the ground has a small shake, Dumah hits it with more force. The same amount of energy is transfered.

All. 1<2<3.

No ones does. They're more durably, not more dense. You made the claim, back it up.

The words invincible and instantaneous are no limit fallacy words that are unquantifiable. Wrong contents, I know both games and the feats withing. I know both their strength, weaponry etc so I know that she can harm him. Speed and Witch time have nothing to argue or concede to though you may argue if you so chose. I haven't clung to no limits fallacies, fictional durability is verse-by-verse and she used her nails so she can use her nails.

Thats not a compromise for starters. Never claimed that. You've already done that.

Due to the fist being able to take the force. If the person could generate gigajoules but their body could not handle that force, the the body would break down under the force like it would by getting struck by the hit. She's never used something like this before so its doubtful. They could but it would deviate from the fact that his speed, strength and time powers are < Bayonetta's

No but you know, she cut a giant fleshy pod, its not the same as launching a skyscraper or cutting through one, your talking nonsense here as well, if I put my fist as hard as I can through a plastic bag, then hit a block of concrete with the same force I am going to get the same force felt in my hand, yes or no?. What in the world are you talking about? she charges up her magic powers, and she head butts the thing and energy expands across it....magic evident, if you want to argue it being a purely physical feat then I have already done that in my generosity

Yes it does, if you take something extremely powerful, smash it across someones body and then strike it, clearly its weaker. Dont forget raziel at full strength using far more power than he did in that instance cannot even scratch Kain, only the reaver did it.

I dont know if durably is a word, my claim is that the proportion between the durability of Kains bones and skin is at least the same as it is in the real world, why should I change that despite trying to accuratly calculate weight, physcis in far more ridiculous things? your making silly doubts and questions and then acting like I have to prove it, your claim was Kain had weaker or equel strength bones to skin...go and prove it for heavens sake and stop bringing up nonsense.

you know both games? so youve played all LoK games from start to finish several times and have completed Bayonetta at least twice like I have, therefore confirming we have at least the same knowledge? theres nothing to argue about Kains durability either, your just bringing up silly doubts based around other characters not necesserily even remotly close to Kain. She can use her nails on a bloody fleshy pod, not on someone who can take millions of tons of force....

I am glad I have only to answer these short few word answers, wasting more time on an argument that apprently wont go anywhere because your too stubborn to admit any claims are correct, and would rather reach for no limit fallacies.

What do you mean the body? first Bay is using magic energy to enhance her power, its not a pure physical feat so her muscles are not all burning off energy to allow her to do this and furthermore as my example earlier pointed out, the object your hitting has to be durable, a skyscraper window and a few piecies of conrete are not, hell they smashed to ruin when they hit Balder and he got knocked out of the air by a stick of lipstick. Not really, it would be taking into account more than speed, strength and time powers which are limited when his durability kills her and his other powers which often work regardless of speed (blood shower has no target for intance, it drains people in an area, inspire hate could mess up her mind and turn her to rage so she may not know what shes doing),

Theres still nothing to suggest she can do anything once Kain can get a teleport to the sky, she cannot really fly or anything of the sort so he can just sit there launching lightning from the sky, not sure she can dodge multiple natural lightingbolts, I think their faster than bullets (not that dodging a bullet means your as fast as one but this is something you seem to think is the case).

1+2=3. She can charge her hands + she can charge herself to skyscraper levers = result. The amount of force expelled from your fist that makes contact returns into your fist. If you punch a bag the small about of energy transfered into the bag will be felt, barely anything. Punching concrete will allow the same thing to higher levels for more energy expelled. But a human isnt a bag or concrete, if you have strength your body will have to composite so not to break your own body when at full strength. Anyone that has punched or taken a punch knows this. Charging herself with magical energy, point?

Irl? Only if the second strike is in the firsts open wound. Such an event did not happen.

Obvious typo. In a verse where powerful characters like Dumah whos bones dont break when shaking the ground can be impaled, real world biology is different here so in game evidence is needed to see what pressure, durability, strain, tensile strength etc if you really want to go technical on this point.

Not several times, once with research is more than enough. Stronger character than Kain getting pierced by sticks plus Raziel impaling Kain minus Raziel hitting Kain, two for one against with one of the for being equal to the against in terms of character.

Don't need to say much when the majority of your whole post is about what Rain thinks, what Rain believes or what Rain is doing not the arguments themself. Speaking of Rain, he'd easily, like before, concede to a point that has ''...no further explanations, theories or any unproven ideas...''. Nor is he supporting any no limits because; '' made the claim, back it up.''

The force is leaving her body, for her body not to even be in pain it means it can take that force. Those are the base issues, his powers require him to react to something she can bypass. And besides Bay being able to leap up to attack... Kain cant fly to launch attacks from mid air. Not that lightning in Witch Time would be all that fast. Dont believe I said bullet dodging bullets means you can run at that speed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Gameplay limits are irrelevent though so since were talking canon, mechanics are outof the question. Its quite simple, read the part where gameplay mechanics are irrelvent then drop this nonsense, then take into account logic in the video below.

Proof. That's all you need. Show me Kain doing it, and that'll be it. Your claim requires it, so go ahead.



But again you can't quantify it so you're claim falls kinda flat. What with you being unable to put any concrete support behind it. As for Kain, you still have yet to prove Kain goes beyond what is shown, which is all that is required.




It is, in fact, a given limit, and until you prove that Kain is not subject to it, you can't claim that Kain goes beyond it. Nothing so far has supported your claim of Kain doing anything beyond what he is shown to be able to do.



'k, we have successfully proven this will likely be a physical battle before any powers get thrown around.



I thought there was some rule about this. "Common knowledge," was it? That thing where both combatants are given the general knowledge that someone in the respective 'verses would reasonably know. Kain would, presumably, know that Bayonetta was a witch and Bayonetta would know Kain is a vampire. At least, I think that's how it went.




Nah. You're using completely different limbs, completely different mechanisms, directions, and sources of that force that the results could be wildly different. Which ball to you think would go further, say? The one you punched, or the one you kicked? One is obviously stronger, for example, most commonly the legs, so you're kick has a better chance of going farther. What direction will they go in? The punch will likely be purely forward force, so it'll go a bit before falling and then rolling. The kicked ball, since you likely kicked up, seeing as you picked it up first, would probably go up, as opposed to the forward punch. Then when it lands it will bounce much higher and I don't think it will roll much.

So, sure, still the same force it want to call it that, but the effects and respective strengths are wildly different. That's basically what I'm talking about here. Magnus causing explosions is more powerful than Kain causing a fire, essentially the kick to Kain's punch. You could say it's the same power, but Magnus' is obviously more powerful and the effects are wildly different. Sebastien's abilities differ signifacntly from Kain's, with a different of speed, going for movement to Kain's striking speed. He's noticeably faster than Kain, and his kicks seem to hit harder.




The ability is never mentioned or used by Kain, a great indicator that he does not have it. That further indicates his ability is weaker than Marcus', and gameplay supports that. At no point is Kain required to Charm an aggressive individual (or non-weak minded one) or is Marcus shown to be able to, either. You'd need to prove Kain can, as that claim requires him to do more than is shown. It's an extraordinary claim, it needs extraordinary evidence.



You're trying to change the subject to Kratos, using a completely unrelated and irrelevant mechanic to what I'm discussing. Also, if you could actually produce a quote from the manual for Kratos that might help you, but I doubt it unless you find a relevant mechanic. (Hint: mounting creatures isn't actually relevant.)




I never said anything about control or lack of it; that was me correcting you on Magnus somehow being less powerful than Kain because he's insane or something. It didn't make much sense. In any case I'm not even talking about that. What I am talking about is Kain making fire, and fire not being hot enough to explode generally. The fact that Magnus' ability is explosions, his power is demonstrably hotter and more powerful than just fire, which again is not normally hot enough to explode.



You should probably prove he can, first. All Kain has demonstrated is attack speed, as opposed to Sebastien's movement speed, wall running, jumping, and general speed. Despite what you say, Kain has not demonstrated Sebastien's speed or abilities. All this points to Kain generally have somewhat weaker abilities.



That's because Marcus does not seem to know how exactly his abilities work. Aside from clearly being wrong and his generally cowardly personality (you know, hiding forever) he does not use his abilities to his advantage when it would be quite smart to do so. Kain killing the priests would open up plenty of spots even if you weren't just pulling an excuse out of thin air. Further, at least one Sarafan nearly attacked him because they were under orders to look for a vampire, and he actually stopped to explain the situation rather than just Charming the moron. Again, Occam's razor would dictate that, as the theory with the fewest assumptions, that he simply can't control them despite it being to his advantage to do so and his record (i.e: priests) indicating that it is something he would do if within his power. The fact that he doesn't is telling.

Originally posted by BloodRain
1+2=3. She can charge her hands + she can charge herself to skyscraper levers = result. The amount of force expelled from your fist that makes contact returns into your fist. If you punch a bag the small about of energy transfered into the bag will be felt, barely anything. Punching concrete will allow the same thing to higher levels for more energy expelled. But a human isnt a bag or concrete, if you have strength your body will have to composite so not to break your own body when at full strength. Anyone that has punched or taken a punch knows this. Charging herself with magical energy, point?

Irl? Only if the second strike is in the firsts open wound. Such an event did not happen.

Obvious typo. In a verse where powerful characters like Dumah whos bones dont break when shaking the ground can be impaled, real world biology is different here so in game evidence is needed to see what pressure, durability, strain, tensile strength etc if you really want to go technical on this point.

Not several times, once with research is more than enough. Stronger character than Kain getting pierced by sticks plus Raziel impaling Kain minus Raziel hitting Kain, two for one against with one of the for being equal to the against in terms of character.

Don't need to say much when the majority of your whole post is about what Rain thinks, what Rain believes or what Rain is doing not the arguments themself. Speaking of Rain, he'd easily, like before, concede to a point that has ''...no further explanations, theories or any unproven ideas...''. Nor is he supporting any no limits because; '' made the claim, back it up.''

The force is leaving her body, for her body not to even be in pain it means it can take that force. Those are the base issues, his powers require him to react to something she can bypass. And besides Bay being able to leap up to attack... Kain cant fly to launch attacks from mid air. Not that lightning in Witch Time would be all that fast. Dont believe I said bullet dodging bullets means you can run at that speed.

Hardly 1+2, your making the assumption that they are both the same spell, because imo they look visably different and doing diverse feats. So you admit its based on weight/durability of the object, not the amount of force you actually use? well the point is its a magic spell, theres no indication it made her stronger or if it made up the difference required to launch the thing. E.g. Balder uses some form of TK to launch the skyscraper, she uses magic strike to launch it, its not until it hits balder again and he does not defend himself does it actually feel physical force itself and breaks on him.

Thats nonsense as well, theres such a thing as internal injury, and this if were just talking physical force. kain was hit in the chest by the reaver and it weakened him, the information is shown.

Hang on, whats being impaled got to do with anything? we dont know when he was impaled, second we dont know the facts behind the event becasue in a world where moebius staff or glyph energy (powers especially effective against vampires) can turn a vampire soft many eventualities could allow this to happen and finally, the guy pointed out the years in limbo have made him stronger, e.g. stronger than when he was impaled also again, shaking the ground means nothing, many fantasy characters can shake the ground regardless of their size or strength.

Thats not how we make a deduction of a feat, thats completly ridiculous, you cant take several random occassions, put them in a row out of context and use plus and minus to get an answer. Kain stands invincible at full strength vs full strength raziel using a lot more power than this second instance, Kain has his heart ripped out while being incredibly weak and after being slashed by a blade filled with more enchantments than your arguments are filled with assumptions (possibly, I may doubt this one ) so theres the context, if Kain was slashed by the reaver or some such in the first instance as well then there may be some argument on this but its clear being the only difference to give Raziel the advantage the reaver weakend 1 billion tonnes of durability to a few hundred, feat for the soul reaver as well now tbh. The thing about Dumah if you had any idea of the games is irrelevent, even if Dumah in the Raziel fight had a real obvious strength feat over Raziel/Kain which he does not it would mean nothing.

Unproven ideas and theories? what like how its unproven whether or not much physical force was used on the skyscraper, or how ineffective/efficent witch time is in a fight, what a low speed limit the verse has.....I have conceded to these things which could be discussed for a lot longer purely to push the argument along. Your nit picking durability by trying to add more doubts and assumptions and pretending I have to disprove your every doubt, thats not how it works...you have to prove a point first, I am still waiting. Infact truth be told, using my previous calcs I have proven most of your own points.

What truth is there in this? a lot of magic is leaving her body as well, for all you know magic is making up most of the difference not physical properties. You keep argueing how shes so fast, or that witch time lasts a long while...Kain has an infnite amount of time, to just sit in the clouds and play lightning fall...assuming he bothers even doing that, he may use the oppertunity to just get her in a TK or within range of his inumerable AoE powers that will lower her effectiveness or kill her.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Proof. That's all you need. Show me Kain doing it, and that'll be it. Your claim requires it, so go ahead.



But again you can't quantify it so you're claim falls kinda flat. What with you being unable to put any concrete support behind it. As for Kain, you still have yet to prove Kain goes beyond what is shown, which is all that is required.




It is, in fact, a given limit, and until you prove that Kain is not subject to it, you can't claim that Kain goes beyond it. Nothing so far has supported your claim of Kain doing anything beyond what he is shown to be able to do.



'k, we have successfully proven this will likely be a physical battle before any powers get thrown around.



I thought there was some rule about this. "Common knowledge," was it? That thing where both combatants are given the general knowledge that someone in the respective 'verses would reasonably know. Kain would, presumably, know that Bayonetta was a witch and Bayonetta would know Kain is a vampire. At least, I think that's how it went.




Nah. You're using completely different limbs, completely different mechanisms, directions, and sources of that force that the results could be wildly different. Which ball to you think would go further, say? The one you punched, or the one you kicked? One is obviously stronger, for example, most commonly the legs, so you're kick has a better chance of going farther. What direction will they go in? The punch will likely be purely forward force, so it'll go a bit before falling and then rolling. The kicked ball, since you likely kicked up, seeing as you picked it up first, would probably go up, as opposed to the forward punch. Then when it lands it will bounce much higher and I don't think it will roll much.

So, sure, still the same force it want to call it that, but the effects and respective strengths are wildly different. That's basically what I'm talking about here. Magnus causing explosions is more powerful than Kain causing a fire, essentially the kick to Kain's punch. You could say it's the same power, but Magnus' is obviously more powerful and the effects are wildly different. Sebastien's abilities differ signifacntly from Kain's, with a different of speed, going for movement to Kain's striking speed. He's noticeably faster than Kain, and his kicks seem to hit harder.




The ability is never mentioned or used by Kain, a great indicator that he does not have it. That further indicates his ability is weaker than Marcus', and gameplay supports that. At no point is Kain required to Charm an aggressive individual (or non-weak minded one) or is Marcus shown to be able to, either. You'd need to prove Kain can, as that claim requires him to do more than is shown. It's an extraordinary claim, it needs extraordinary evidence.



You're trying to change the subject to Kratos, using a completely unrelated and irrelevant mechanic to what I'm discussing. Also, if you could actually produce a quote from the manual for Kratos that might help you, but I doubt it unless you find a relevant mechanic. (Hint: mounting creatures isn't actually relevant.)




I never said anything about control or lack of it; that was me correcting you on Magnus somehow being less powerful than Kain because he's insane or something. It didn't make much sense. In any case I'm not even talking about that. What I am talking about is Kain making fire, and fire not being hot enough to explode generally. The fact that Magnus' ability is explosions, his power is demonstrably hotter and more powerful than just fire, which again is not normally hot enough to explode.



You should probably prove he can, first. All Kain has demonstrated is attack speed, as opposed to Sebastien's movement speed, wall running, jumping, and general speed. Despite what you say, Kain has not demonstrated Sebastien's speed or abilities. All this points to Kain generally have somewhat weaker abilities.



That's because Marcus does not seem to know how exactly his abilities work. Aside from clearly being wrong and his generally cowardly personality (you know, hiding forever) he does not use his abilities to his advantage when it would be quite smart to do so. Kain killing the priests would open up plenty of spots even if you weren't just pulling an excuse out of thin air. Further, at least one Sarafan nearly attacked him because they were under orders to look for a vampire, and he actually stopped to explain the situation rather than just Charming the moron. Again, Occam's razor would dictate that, as the theory with the fewest assumptions, that he simply can't control them despite it being to his advantage to do so and his record (i.e: priests) indicating that it is something he would do if within his power. The fact that he doesn't is telling.

How does it fall flat? my argument confirms Dark gifts grow over time, as little as 200 years, Marcus points out how he can charm all living things, or more presisely based on logic we can assume all things hes encounterd and implies he could not do that before, its fairly impressive...there is no difference here, again we dont use gameplay mechanics.

Thats not an answer to what I said, your just repeating "gameplay controls say A so B is canon!".

Nothing has been proven of that account, its proven that Bay will talk and use physical force. Based on Kains character, he will want to kill a human just for blood, and since one slash from Kain will kill her, 100% CIS using just basic abilities (physical) give Kain the win so I am not complaining.

I dont know, if thats the case I am not sure Bay has encountered vampires before wheras without many details, Kain has a fair understanding of what "witch" means and will be on his guard.

Its the same force however, where I direct it is irrelevent, Kains directing speed in his arms, and pyroenesis in flesh bodies.

You added "respective strength", I outlined my strength is the same above, just like Kains has not reduced. Show me Magnus "making explosions" please...his kicks seem to hit harder? how?

You missed the point that Kain has actually used mind reading through blood drinking, but assuming we have not seen it in Blood omen 2, SR1 and 2, or defiance you belive that gives you evidence that the power just disapeared? your not making sense, just because Kain does not show it, does not mean his Dark gift he got off marcus is suddenly weaker than the one Marcus had...again, your trying to claim things are watered down based on purely the fact we have not seen him use it in the exact same way. I think agressiveness being a factor is an extraordinary claim, and needs canon evidence, is there any indication of this in the storyline or a cutscene?

That is the quote, I just gave you one, "press circle to mount a weakened beast", the point is that under your logic Kratos has to weaken something before he can mount it (bs, he could just jump on regardless of how strong it is) and that "weakening" in this case is the key word while your key word is "aggressive character"....pretty relevent in practice, the fact the actions between the two are different is irrelevent.

Well you failed, because insanity is a lack of control and focus/centration intensifies energy, .e.g. a lasere is more powerful when concentrated, my analogy beats yours not that it matters. Show me magnus "making explosions" please, and Kain "making fire" because iirc its the Statues that explode, and its the enemies Kain targets that burn, their not making "fire" or "explosion" their targets are burning or exploding as logic dictates.

Its the same thing, speed, technically Kains moving as well, just his arms not his legs.

Marcus, with his 200 years of knowledge does not know his power? with twice the years of a lucky human being using this power that he dominates in and you have the cheek of claiming he does not know his power, what basis? please.....Occams razor is in my favour, I am pointing out facts, Marcus with more knowledge you can imagine (any human for that matter, imagine studying something for 200 years) and being a vampire with higher mind capacity than a normal human at base (as Kain points out anyway) knows the ins and outs of his power and despite this sees Kain as NO problem, he even stands there pissing him off despite his intent of mind control. Your case falls flat here in this first instance, so I think I will give you the choice to simply ignore all my other points and answer this paragraph alone, the rest of the reply will be the discussion of irrelevent gamepaly mechanics anyway.

Marcus' actions in that occassion show how aggression is not a factor, assuming it was a factor in the first place and not a mechanic.

Pains are now leaving, now exiting stoic mode. Have at thee~

Only difference is that she needed a more extensive charge for a much larger feat. Nup its the force, the other stuff is the pain receptors. But thats person vs concrete, this is person vs themself/person. If a vessel cant take the force it can't produce the force, irl if it happened the persons fist would break under the strain. Its like a cannon and a rail-gun. The cannon can take for explosion/force of the gunpowder and so the only reverse effect that happens is being knocked back. A rail-gun however cant take the force it produces and is destroyed when it fires. She charged her body, just like with the nails, to amp herself to do the feat. In actually she charges her legs, not her head, for added force. So the only thing connecting her to the skyscraper was her head without her magic touching it(no magic around the head).

Nup, irl its true. Its easier to make a cut inside of an open wound. No info is around that gives the Blade the properties needed.

Unless those things make Vamps softer it wouldn't change getting impaled by wood. Stronger yes, but going by the things said; a) he got stronger b) Raziel says that even before he was powerful c) he is now defiantly stronger than Raz. d) He was already aware that his punches can shake the ground. That and the fact that he was in this form when he was impaled (fits the shackles) says that he was already at or above Raziels strength before his 'death'. When its done with physical strength alone then the person is strong, especially when the obelisk falling did little in comparison. Do you honestly believe that Raz is stronger than Dumah?

An event contradicted/retconned/whatevered by the later events of Defiance. Only way this dura feat stands is for the Blade to have an ability that was only invented just now for the feat to work. Thats creating an unheard of ability so that another feat can be justified.

Unproven ideas: Wraith Blade has a durability reducing property/ability - Bay has some never-seen-before magic force move - Verse has a slow speed limit. Unproven theories: This ability was known by Kain - Witch Time has a lackluster effect on people. Witch Time, we have its reduction factor, know it can work on people and see that it can last at least a minute. Speed, we know the speeds from the speedometer, we know that Luka was rushing and that Bay was able to move faster than on the roof when it passed her. <- Besides the time calc there are no theories or ideas inputted into the feats. Rambling, stop ignoring the point. You made the claim that she can't use the sword at full strength, prove it or drop it.

''For all know'' Except we don't know, nor have the evidence to say she has such a power all of a sudden. Eyup, if Witch Time is up nothing he can do can hit her. If she has the distance plus given her reactions nothing he does will hit her even without. Missed the point again; ''Kain cant fly to launch attacks from mid air.'' If he does manage to grasp her with TK, which depends on his arm movement, there still the fact that she can still Witch Time and even get a summon off if need be.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Pains are now leaving, now exiting stoic mode. Have at thee~

Only difference is that she needed a more extensive charge for a much larger feat. Nup its the force, the other stuff is the pain receptors. But thats person vs concrete, this is person vs themself/person. If a vessel cant take the force it can't produce the force, irl if it happened the persons fist would break under the strain. Its like a cannon and a rail-gun. The cannon can take for explosion/force of the gunpowder and so the only reverse effect that happens is being knocked back. A rail-gun however cant take the force it produces and is destroyed when it fires. She charged her body, just like with the nails, to amp herself to do the feat. In actually she charges her legs, not her head, for added force. So the only thing connecting her to the skyscraper was her head without her magic touching it(no magic around the head).

Nup, irl its true. Its easier to make a cut inside of an open wound. No info is around that gives the Blade the properties needed.

Unless those things make Vamps softer it wouldn't change getting impaled by wood. Stronger yes, but going by the things said; a) he got stronger b) Raziel says that even before he was powerful c) he is now defiantly stronger than Raz. d) He was already aware that his punches can shake the ground. That and the fact that he was in this form when he was impaled (fits the shackles) says that he was already at or above Raziels strength before his 'death'. When its done with physical strength alone then the person is strong, especially when the obelisk falling did little in comparison. Do you honestly believe that Raz is stronger than Dumah?

An event contradicted/retconned/whatevered by the later events of Defiance. Only way this dura feat stands is for the Blade to have an ability that was only invented just now for the feat to work. Thats creating an unheard of ability so that another feat can be justified.

Unproven ideas: Wraith Blade has a durability reducing property/ability - Bay has some never-seen-before magic force move - Verse has a slow speed limit. Unproven theories: This ability was known by Kain - Witch Time has a lackluster effect on people. Witch Time, we have its reduction factor, know it can work on people and see that it can last at least a minute. Speed, we know the speeds from the speedometer, we know that Luka was rushing and that Bay was able to move faster than on the roof when it passed her. <- Besides the time calc there are no theories or ideas inputted into the feats. Rambling, stop ignoring the point. You made the claim that she can't use the sword at full strength, prove it or drop it.

''For all know'' Except we don't know, nor have the evidence to say she has such a power all of a sudden. Eyup, if Witch Time is up nothing he can do can hit her. If she has the distance plus given her reactions nothing he does will hit her even without. Missed the point again; ''Kain cant fly to launch attacks from mid air.'' If he does manage to grasp her with TK, which depends on his arm movement, there still the fact that she can still Witch Time and even get a summon off if need be.

Theres no indication she can use the same charge through her nails, or that it would work at all, imagine trying to defeat Kain with just your nails, small nicks and cuts even assuming she could pierce him. Thats not true if magic is entered into the circle and makes up for physical force, in this case being able to launch a skyscraper. Yes there was, watch the scene again, the magic energy expands across the whole area she strikes and her whole body has the "magic hue", also her legs barely move so its not her legs that have gained any force or strength, assuming theres any strength at all, looks like a majority magic feat otherwise as I said, skyscraper would have smashed like it did on Balder.

Yes but what I meant was, thats not the only way to make it easier to cut something or someone. Well there is, we see it happen, we see it do that to Kain, along its long list of powers we know that this combination=being able to break Kains flesh over a fairly large area (this was not just a square inch, this was a strike across a large part of his body).

Under the affects of moebius' staff Kain can barely get up and Raziels wraith blade is nullified, glyph magic burns vampires like any of their weaknesses, point being we dont know the facts behind how Dumah was defeated. How do we know Dumah as he is now is stronger than Raziel, just because he can shake the ground? Why would that even hint at him being at or above Raziels strength? it actually shows Dumah in particulour is far weaker than Raziel unless those shackles are made of something that can take hundreds of tons of energy force. Dumah has no feats and was shackled so yes, although we dont know how he was defeated/shackled we know even after his years in limbo he had to use some strength to break the shackles also the shackles fitting him does not mean he was that size when he was impaled.

nothing hints at a retcon, nobody says Defiance is a retcon of any previous events this is your reaction to a feat you do not like yet you blindly accept Bayonettas ridiculous actions which are far more ambigious. What? your talking nonsense, it does not need to have any special powers on top of what we have seen, its simply a vastly powerful weapon with a large number of enhancements=Kain is vastly weakened by the time Raziel sticks his claws in. Simple, your making assumptions based around retcons, your making a failure of logic by ignoring the reaver attack and pretending Raziel and Kain are at full strength just like they were in the Chronoplast (their both very weak here, kain having bene hit by the wraith blade).

That was an idea that was not important to the argument, its a suggestion that an incredibly powerful weapon is going to weaken someone before a second strike, this is basic logic really not an idea. The move is seen in the same scene and the verse has a slow speed limit is also seen, the vehicles look like their going slow. We have seen it work on Balder, thats it and tbh I am not even sure of that because he was already defeated so we dont know how slow hes going, only the bullet (lipstick). The sword has no feats, has never been canonically used and your trying to use a no limit fallacy and claim it can take millions of tons of force, bullshit, go and prove it please.

We dont know? so your saying its a fact that she uses purely physical force and the magical enegy, chant and charge were all for show? your making daft claims again, like how Kains skin is as strong as bone. Unless it does not have to hit her I did not miss any point, how far can Bay leap? shes not going to be able to go any distance, unlike Kain she does not have a decent teleport. Thats a good idea, create summons so that Kains inspire hate becomes more effective, not that her summons can do much....they take even longer than her charge up attack and are far less effective apart from the fact her charge on Kain will kill her. Your acting like she has unlimited time to use witch time...

Why not? We know she can charge her hands and get to that level. Did that nail feat look like small cuts to you? She's never displayed a power like this, and knowing she's strong and can charge herself would disagree. Don't see anything other than the blue magic hue over her legs.

Yes theres the magical option where magic lowers the dura, of everything the Blade has on it this is not one of its powers. Elemental physical strikes and soul devouring are not this.

Being brought to your knees in pain/paralyzed and burning has no stated effect on physical durability. The shackles obviously weren't enough to hold him, he wouldn't even of had the chance to break out has being impaled is a vampire weakness. So you believe that physically Raziel is the stronger one? Just wanna check.

Nothing besides a later event clearly showing him getting impaled with no further explanation in Wraith blade powers to suggest otherwise. Contradicted seems to be the best word for it. You're clinging to one word, don't. Though seeing it as a contraction to an event earlier is better then creating powers for the Blade.

Its not basic logic that one attack can make the next attack get passed their durability easier. Durability doesn't change unless for specific mentioned reasons. Looks<figures. Speed it went past her says 40mph, speed in the bike scene also stands. Luka was going at full speed so limits hardly matter. We see it take effect on Balder who was still alive and we know the speed reduction, what more is needed? You say she cant use her weapon, you made the claim, you prove it.

Purely charged up physical attack like what we see. Suggesting that she has power to magically move a skyscraper despite never showing a power to do so requires a little more work on your behalf. Don't recall saying that, don't put words in my mouth. Then answer it. Kain can't fly, he'd have to port up then aim/launch his attack then keep porting back up. Height depending on his range. Can't remember her jump height, maybe a few dozen meters or a hundred or... I dunno >-> However she can Witch Time and summon something to bring him back down. Thats if he can somehow use Hate in time, anyhow I was thinking more of those large fists to do the trick. The least they can do is take down Kain's grip on her.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Why not? We know she can charge her hands and get to that level. Did that nail feat look like small cuts to you? She's never displayed a power like this, and knowing she's strong and can charge herself would disagree. Don't see anything other than the blue magic hue over her legs.

Yes theres the magical option where magic lowers the dura, of everything the Blade has on it this is not one of its powers. Elemental physical strikes and soul devouring are not this.

Being brought to your knees in pain/paralyzed and burning has no stated effect on physical durability. The shackles obviously weren't enough to hold him, he wouldn't even of had the chance to break out has being impaled is a vampire weakness. So you believe that physically Raziel is the stronger one? Just wanna check.

Nothing besides a later event clearly showing him getting impaled with no further explanation in Wraith blade powers to suggest otherwise. Contradicted seems to be the best word for it. You're clinging to one word, don't. Though seeing it as a contraction to an event earlier is better then creating powers for the Blade.

Its not basic logic that one attack can make the next attack get passed their durability easier. Durability doesn't change unless for specific mentioned reasons. Looks<figures. Speed it went past her says 40mph, speed in the bike scene also stands. Luka was going at full speed so limits hardly matter. We see it take effect on Balder who was still alive and we know the speed reduction, what more is needed? You say she cant use her weapon, you made the claim, you prove it.

Purely charged up physical attack like what we see. Suggesting that she has power to magically move a skyscraper despite never showing a power to do so requires a little more work on your behalf. Don't recall saying that, don't put words in my mouth. Then answer it. Kain can't fly, he'd have to port up then aim/launch his attack then keep porting back up. Height depending on his range. Can't remember her jump height, maybe a few dozen meters or a hundred or... I dunno >-> However she can Witch Time and summon something to bring him back down. Thats if he can somehow use Hate in time, anyhow I was thinking more of those large fists to do the trick. The least they can do is take down Kain's grip on her.

We know that with a very specific chant that takes some time she can charge power through her body and execute an attack through her head, that does not mean the same magic can be used through her finger nails or that it would be effective. It looks like cutting a fleshy pod. You did not counter the rest of the argument, saying "shes strong" does not counter the fact she took a long chant and magic spell to accomplish any result.

Who said magic "lowers teh durability"?, a large accumilation of enchancements and power would cause greater damage than a normal weapon that your claiming the soul reaver is apprently.

Why would they make shackles at all if they were not meant to hold him? clearly they were not meant to hold an evolved and spiritually enhanced dumah. Based on feats yes, Raziel has done things Dumah has not shown to be able to do iirc.

What further explanation of powers do you need? your claim so far is that the most powerful weapon (second most powerfu if you countl when you combine it with the reaver) in the verse with a vast number of powers is not going to weaken Kain (despite him holding his chest in agony and barely able to stand) and him more likley to be harmed than Kain at full strength? please tell me this is some kind of joke...and not a blatant reach, logical break etc. But nothing is contradicted, as I said your acting like they were at the same strength level nad used the same powers (wraith blade was not used in SR 2), your reaching, mind you dont pull a muscle.

Yes it is , if I hit someone in the chest with a baseball bat and they doubled over and possibly cracked a rib, your claim is that they would be no more vulnerable or hamred by a follow up punch than if they were at their best of health? again, silly claims. What figures? I have not seen them. We see it effect balder (arguably, he was not moving anyway not under his own will) for the same time it takes for a bullet to travel 10 meters? so a split second of Witch time vs living entities if it even works, since other living entities such as the angels (fortitudo?), Jeanne etc are not affected. I did not claim she cannot use her weapon....when did I say she cannot use it? only that based on a lack of durability feats, it will shatter in her hands when she attempts to power boost.

purely charged up physical? so no magical forces there according to you? your not going to convince me this way, playing silly will just bore me and its the same scene, you need to prove she can do it without chants, magic energy etc. Kain can float/glide, so yes eventually he would have to port back up, so? madam butterfly? depends on what TK move he used I guess but tell me, hows she going to do her chants and movements to summon this thing while Tked? does not make sense to me....

Please prove Kain can do what you're claiming. Just show Kain controlling an aggressive of non-weak minded character and don't ignore my request again. If you can't do it just say as much.


Originally posted by Burning thought
How does it fall flat? my argument confirms Dark gifts grow over time, as little as 200 years, Marcus points out how he can charm all living things, or more presisely based on logic we can assume all things hes encounterd and implies he could not do that before, its fairly impressive...there is no difference here, again we dont use gameplay mechanics.

Improves by how much? Don't forget that Marcus was wrong. Also, please prove Kain can do what you claim.




Just prove it. Unless you give something that overrides the manual,
you can't make that claim. Actually, unless you have evidence at all for Kain, you can't make the claim.




You're seriously trying to claim a physical win when that point is still being disputed? Jeez, at least show BloodRain some respect.



'k, she should still have the general knowledge someone would have about vampires.



No, you misunderstand. One is still demonstrably more powerful than the other, regardless of the force used.



I already did this, it's basically a third of the boss fight and basically one-shots Kain if it hits him. Explosions are more powerful than fire, Magnus has explosions are Kain has fire. When Sebastien's kicks hit, they send Kain flying farther than when Kain's claws hit. Demonstrably stronger.



Show me Kain reading someone's mind in Blood Omen 2. Assuming he has an ability he has not used or hinted at is sheer folly. So logically, he has not used Marcus' powers, so he doesn't really have them, and assuming he does when nothing indicates strikes me as strange. Please prove Kain can control an aggressivce or non weak minded individual, as that is your claim to prove, not mine. The manual clearly states one thing, while you're saying another, and unless you prove your case the canon statement will stand.



I'm not seeing a quote from any manual here. Source?




lol'd at "my analogy beats yours." Do you actually know how flammable people are? Or how explosive statues are? The answer is "not very." People are mostly water, kinda hard to burn, as are statues, so logic dictates...not much, here. In reality, it'd be easier to make people explode, since water is easier to turn into gas (aka explode) than stone is. So, logically, Kain's targets should explode, too, but they don't because his power is weaksauce, while Magnus should be melting this stone (turning solid to liquid is easier than solid to gas) but instead he explodes it because his power is uber. But no, Kain just makes some fire and burns things, so much weaker than Magnus it's funny.



Just not as fast, strong, you know; everything else.



Yes, that's what I said. Marcus uses his power stupidly, does not use it when it would be useful, and fails spectacularly when he tries to brag. He's a coward that spent 200 years hiding, and tries to join the winning side to spare himself, with Sarafan he demonstrably doesn't even try to control even when it'd be useful. So yes, Marcus is supremely worthless. I'm still going to need you prove all your claims here, though. Go ahead and prove Marcus has more knowledge than any human, prove he even can dominate any human when he demonstrably doesn't, and prove he's right despite being proven wrong beyond all measure.



You mean when he doesn't control the Sarafan aggressive to him? That somehow proves Marcus can control aggressive people, yes.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Please prove Kain can do what you're claiming. Just show Kain controlling an aggressive of non-weak minded character and don't ignore my request again. If you can't do it just say as much.




Improves by how much? Don't forget that Marcus was wrong. Also, please prove Kain can do what you claim.




Just prove it. Unless you give something that overrides the manual,
you can't make that claim. Actually, unless you have evidence at all for Kain, you can't make the claim.




You're seriously trying to claim a physical win when that point is still being disputed? Jeez, at least show BloodRain some respect.



'k, she should still have the general knowledge someone would have about vampires.



No, you misunderstand. One is still demonstrably more powerful than the other, regardless of the force used.



I already did this, it's basically a third of the boss fight and basically one-shots Kain if it hits him. Explosions are more powerful than fire, Magnus has explosions are Kain has fire. When Sebastien's kicks hit, they send Kain flying farther than when Kain's claws hit. Demonstrably stronger.



Show me Kain reading someone's mind in Blood Omen 2. Assuming he has an ability he has not used or hinted at is sheer folly. So logically, he has not used Marcus' powers, so he doesn't really have them, and assuming he does when nothing indicates strikes me as strange. Please prove Kain can control an aggressivce or non weak minded individual, as that is your claim to prove, not mine. The manual clearly states one thing, while you're saying another, and unless you prove your case the canon statement will stand.



I'm not seeing a quote from any manual here. Source?




lol'd at "my analogy beats yours." Do you actually know how flammable people are? Or how explosive statues are? The answer is "not very." People are mostly water, kinda hard to burn, as are statues, so logic dictates...not much, here. In reality, it'd be easier to make people explode, since water is easier to turn into gas (aka explode) than stone is. So, logically, Kain's targets should explode, too, but they don't because his power is weaksauce, while Magnus should be melting this stone (turning solid to liquid is easier than solid to gas) but instead he explodes it because his power is uber. But no, Kain just makes some fire and burns things, so much weaker than Magnus it's funny.



Just not as fast, strong, you know; everything else.



Yes, that's what I said. Marcus uses his power stupidly, does not use it when it would be useful, and fails spectacularly when he tries to brag. He's a coward that spent 200 years hiding, and tries to join the winning side to spare himself, with Sarafan he demonstrably doesn't even try to control even when it'd be useful. So yes, Marcus is supremely worthless. I'm still going to need you prove all your claims here, though. Go ahead and prove Marcus has more knowledge than any human, prove he even can dominate any human when he demonstrably doesn't, and prove he's right despite being proven wrong beyond all measure.



You mean when he doesn't control the Sarafan aggressive to him? That somehow proves Marcus can control aggressive people, yes.

Theres nowhere that states or displays Marcus as wrong

KMC forums overrides the manuel, since gameplay mechanics are not allowed.

That counter does not even make sense and I already have the calculations, unless Bloodrain has another source of feats then its settled, regardless, Kain still only needs to strike bay once, either with his sword or his claw. Ironic, you talking about respect despite how your constantly ignoring or mocking me.

Erm general knowledge? like all vampires are exactly the same...generally of course

Thats not magnus making explosions, note that Kain does not explode if it hits him, it does exactly the same as if Kain uses it on a flesh/blood opponent also put the sound on your comp, magnus clearly says "I will incinerate you" your making silly claims and generla ones at that, would you say the explosion from a childs fire cracker>>the heat of a blow torch?

Why folly? when one drop of blood can give Kain what he wants and most if not all opponents can be cut down? The canon from the same manuel says he takes their dark gifts, only thats from the "story" section not the "controls" one The manuel clearly states a lot of things in the "controls" section as it does in many manuels, would be damn confusing if controls were written as if they were storyline canon.

GoW 3 manuel, e.g. I am holding it in front of me. You dont know anything about geology, natural heat/pressure can crack/break apart rocks over time, it takes a lot of heat to turn a stone into magma, less so to create pressure but I have countered this whole "magnus is making explosions" rubbish, if you had actually listened to magnus you would have realised this.

Useful according to you, your claiming you know better than a 200 year old vampire? your making a spectacle of this, and mocking me at the same time...show some respect like you claim I should. The evidence shown already points out Marcus has more knowledge on mind control than any human, A: since MC is not real, and B: he has 200 years+ knowledge on it. Nothing has proven Marcus wrong.....whats been proven wrong is your ability to listen to evidence and the only thing your side has proven is your ability to reach beyond all measure.

What Sarafan was aggressive to Marcus who is under the Sarafan lords employ?

Why? Whats evident that its not basically the same? That > small cuts, more when charged. ''She's never displayed a power like this'' was the only counter needed to that, and ya didn't say anything about chants and spells in the last post for me to counter. A magic charge is a magic charge.

Only option for physical damage to increase. Stop throwing straw men at me, never claimed the Blade was normal. The enhancements do jack besides certain elemental damage at times. All that greater damage talk will reduce a persons stamina, unless LoK has a direct stamina-durability relationship doing it wont make another hit penetrate. If there is a relation then that calls up a stamina question.

Because he was impaled, a vampire weakness, there was nothing he could do. Evident that after coming back/'waking up' he could break out without any troubles.

Pain =/= lowered durability. The rest is nothing I've claimed. And saying 'strongest weapon' when not saying what properties of said weapon, the main being soul stuff, helps no one. Raziel did pierce Kain, and there are no explanations in the game that say that the Blade made it easier unless its a stamina related issue. Doing more damage =/= makes the the next hit hit harder. Ahh time for the lowly humour? Fun times `-`

Durability is the same, its the stamina thats reduced. Only when its the same area like cracking bone, not skin/muscle, is their a slightly easier chance of cracking the bone, that doesn't happen here. Lorry passing her in 0.8s and speedometer suggest the speed of 40mph. False we see Balder moving backwards, a motion thats suddenly brought to a standstill. In that particular scene it lasts 20sec, in others we see it get near 1min. Some enemies at certain times are not effected, other times they are. Don't see where a claim can be suggested that she'd break her own blade, maybe if it was a normal katana.

..that magic is what charged it, and a charge is all it is and will remain to be. The physical body is what hit the skyscraper. I don't have to prove anything I didn't say she could do. I said she can charge up, which she can. She can charge up to sky scraper levels as we've seen, thats all thats needed. And how high do you suppose Kain can go where he can still target Bay or be in range? Most of his attacks I know of requires him to be in range. Whether he does or doesn't have a move with a long range the distance is still important. The further away he is the easier it will be for her to evade. (Don't remember him floating/gliding O.o) Aye, all thats needed is an arm movement for the smaller ones. Large ones only need body movements which his TK allows. That reminds me, exploding into butterfly's would escape it too.

Procrastination.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Why? Whats evident that its not basically the same? That > small cuts, more when charged. ''She's never displayed a power like this'' was the only counter needed to that, and ya didn't say anything about chants and spells in the last post for me to counter. A magic charge is a magic charge.

Only option for physical damage to increase. Stop throwing straw men at me, never claimed the Blade was normal. The enhancements do jack besides certain elemental damage at times. All that greater damage talk will reduce a persons stamina, unless LoK has a direct stamina-durability relationship doing it wont make another hit penetrate. If there is a relation then that calls up a stamina question.

Because he was impaled, a vampire weakness, there was nothing he could do. Evident that after coming back/'waking up' he could break out without any troubles.

Pain =/= lowered durability. The rest is nothing I've claimed. And saying 'strongest weapon' when not saying what properties of said weapon, the main being soul stuff, helps no one. Raziel did pierce Kain, and there are no explanations in the game that say that the Blade made it easier unless its a stamina related issue. Doing more damage =/= makes the the next hit hit harder. Ahh time for the lowly humour? Fun times `-`

Durability is the same, its the stamina thats reduced. Only when its the same area like cracking bone, not skin/muscle, is their a slightly easier chance of cracking the bone, that doesn't happen here. Lorry passing her in 0.8s and speedometer suggest the speed of 40mph. False we see Balder moving backwards, a motion thats suddenly brought to a standstill. In that particular scene it lasts 20sec, in others we see it get near 1min. Some enemies at certain times are not effected, other times they are. Don't see where a claim can be suggested that she'd break her own blade, maybe if it was a normal katana.

..that magic is what charged it, and a charge is all it is and will remain to be. The physical body is what hit the skyscraper. I don't have to prove anything I didn't say she could do. I said she can charge up, which she can. She can charge up to sky scraper levels as we've seen, thats all thats needed. And how high do you suppose Kain can go where he can still target Bay or be in range? Most of his attacks I know of requires him to be in range. Whether he does or doesn't have a move with a long range the distance is still important. The further away he is the easier it will be for her to evade. (Don't remember him floating/gliding O.o) Aye, all thats needed is an arm movement for the smaller ones. Large ones only need body movements which his TK allows. That reminds me, exploding into butterfly's would escape it too.

Procrastination.

Well first theres red energy that comes from around her hands specifically, its adifferent chant/movement. (does she event chant?) And is far weaker. Not really because your assuming its purely physical, the feat is the same one, only magic forces are clearly evident.

Your argueing that the blade is normal, plain and simple otherwise why dont you debate it from the point of view that its a vastly enchanted blade nothing alike to a normal sword other than through Raziels will can affect physical targets? its got far vaster power, damage and magical effects than you give it credit for.

They pierced his body, clearly its a weakness since vampires rely on their hearts but that does not mean they did not hold him still to do so, how do you know there was nothing he could do? your the one claiming hes stronger than Raziel. Yes, that does not change anything....they could not percieve that he was going to gain a boost from spiritual interactions.

The main being soul stuff? its made up of a lot of souls and is the spirit of Raziel and all his enchantments from elemental or the guardians of the pillars and being a vastly powerful weapon, just smashed into Kains chest and your acting like it makes no difference despite the evidence before you. No explanations other than the fact Kains staggering in agony as opposed to shrugging off full strength Raziel. There has to be lowly humour, otherwise having to repeat simple logic over and over would be even more boring than it is already.

No its not, if you smash something, its clearly weaker for the next strike, basic logic and stamina? so your claim now is apprently Kain was not harmed, he was just tired or something? how can it last 20 seconds when its equel to the bullets speed? all bay did is slow balder down so she can take the shot. What "others" are near 1 min? so your claim then is that because its not normal, its invincible and can take millions of tons of force? proof for this claim then?

A charge is all it is, yes a charge of magic power, not physical strength. As did the expansion of energy across it. His range? enough to call lightning from the sky is all he needs, the distance between the clouds and the earth then I guess.....show me the "small ones" then please that you belive she will be able to do. You act like Kain is doing one action, then lets bay have her turn....chances are once the ball is in his court and shes trying to get at him while hes in the air, out of her range he could teleport close by to her with inspire hate or time control on so unless she wastes her witch time in the hopes of catching him doing this she could end up stuck in his own time powers and murdered.

good ole outtakes.

The woman has several chants for the same move, just look at her summons, and nup no chant was needed. If you see other matches she used the this charge when doing some moves like tossing Fortirudo. The skyscraper one took longer to charge with a chant so obviously its gonna hit harder. The contact is physical yes, and thats the only thing we need as no magic comes out and pushes it.

Nup thats what you think I'm arguing about apparently. Damage, power, only reduce stamina in grater amounts. No magical effects target durability. In other words either 1) the Reaver can reduce durability, which I doubt you believe. 2) His stamina is related to his durability, so it lowing his stamina makes his durability suffer or 3) He hasn't got the durability. (*Popped up here) So yeah, without any evidence for 1 and knowing you wont budge on 3, 2 seems like the more possible reason.

Doesn't mean, does mean, no way to say. We do know it he was helpless after it. Which didnt matter as he was impaled, was pretty helpless.

Gonna pop* this part up there with its brother. And... got a point there. mmm

The person is weaker, not the area. Exception being a slash wound over a deep slash wound. This claim is the only other thing it can be. Other things being, as said above, point 1 or 3. They cannot/wont be argued over leaving 2 as the main idea. No evidence to claim anything else more then this. Ohhhh I thought you were talking about how long the scene lasted for <___< anyhow thats still another example that she can use it on a person. The 1 min one is that 'falling rocks' scene, lasts 55 secs easy. You wont see me claiming anything is invincible('sides Gods..). My claim is that she can use a weapon in her game. Something thats never been questioned in any thread before. Your claim, the one that brought up an issue in the first place making aka burden of proof, of it breaking under her force is what needs proof.

Charge means nothing when only physical contact is made. There is no expansion of energy, the only thing covered in her aura is her legs. If you mean the purple aura of the top half her body thats something the player activated prior to that QTE. Can check the scenes before it, some clips don't even have it on. Thats the bolts range, I mean the things that come from him up to where he can still aim at them. If it isn't far he wont be able to aim and hit her, even with a bolt. Are too many scenes for to be bothered to find one, its the very common move if you remember. Piccus. Only takes an arm movement. Not like Im gonna give a play-by-play on what each person might do. If he's far out of reach it gives her the chance to pull of a summon. Teleporting close to her fails compared to her reactions. His Time power also being useless in comparison. All she would have to do in any situation is Witch Time, even with his activated, and still have the complete movement advantage.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The woman has several chants for the same move, just look at her summons, and nup no chant was needed. If you see other matches she used the this charge when doing some moves like tossing Fortirudo. The skyscraper one took longer to charge with a chant so obviously its gonna hit harder. The contact is physical yes, and thats the only thing we need as no magic comes out and pushes it.

Nup thats what you think I'm arguing about apparently. Damage, power, only reduce stamina in grater amounts. No magical effects target durability. In other words either 1) the Reaver can reduce durability, which I doubt you believe. 2) His stamina is related to his durability, so it lowing his stamina makes his durability suffer or 3) He hasn't got the durability. (*Popped up here) So yeah, without any evidence for 1 and knowing you wont budge on 3, 2 seems like the more possible reason.

Doesn't mean, does mean, no way to say. We do know it he was helpless after it. Which didnt matter as he was impaled, was pretty helpless.

Gonna pop* this part up there with its brother. And... got a point there. mmm

The person is weaker, not the area. Exception being a slash wound over a deep slash wound. This claim is the only other thing it can be. Other things being, as said above, point 1 or 3. They cannot/wont be argued over leaving 2 as the main idea. No evidence to claim anything else more then this. Ohhhh I thought you were talking about how long the scene lasted for <___< anyhow thats still another example that she can use it on a person. The 1 min one is that 'falling rocks' scene, lasts 55 secs easy. You wont see me claiming anything is invincible('sides Gods..). My claim is that she can use a weapon in her game. Something thats never been questioned in any thread before. Your claim, the one that brought up an issue in the first place making aka burden of proof, of it breaking under her force is what needs proof.

Charge means nothing when only physical contact is made. There is no expansion of energy, the only thing covered in her aura is her legs. If you mean the purple aura of the top half her body thats something the player activated prior to that QTE. Can check the scenes before it, some clips don't even have it on. Thats the bolts range, I mean the things that come from him up to where he can still aim at them. If it isn't far he wont be able to aim and hit her, even with a bolt. Are too many scenes for to be bothered to find one, its the very common move if you remember. Piccus. Only takes an arm movement. Not like Im gonna give a play-by-play on what each person might do. If he's far out of reach it gives her the chance to pull of a summon. Teleporting close to her fails compared to her reactions. His Time power also being useless in comparison. All she would have to do in any situation is Witch Time, even with his activated, and still have the complete movement advantage.

Theres no indication that teh skyscraper attack is a similiar to chant to the nails attack, they all look like different processes of magci, different chants, different colours and overall unique effects, I dont think it can be proven or even logically deduced that she can use the Skyscraper chant to power her nails in the same manor. You see the area flash yellow with energy, how could I go about showing you, screenshotting it and then hosting it on a image web?

You must be, if you cannot seem to understand that the wraith blade is not just a striking weapon but has a vast array of powers to damage with which are apprently enough to not only damage Kain (shown) but to kill him (Kains belief) I think its a major, very major difference between SR2 FMV and Defiance strike. 1) No, I belive an extremely powerful strike can weaken an area for a follow up strike, if you use a rocket to blow a chunk off the top of a bunker, a bunker buster dropped by a plane can blow up the lower levels 2) I dont think his stamina is even relevent, 3) impossible, hes shown it in SR2 FMV, but no, he does not have the durability to take the wraith blade AND a strike from Raziel, but not many forces are as powerful as the wraith blade clearly.

I dont know where your trying to go with this argument, Dumah is completly irrelevent.

I dont understand, got a point?

Clearly if an area of skin/flesh is broken/bleeding its weaker than if the skin was not broken. But the falling rocks are inanimate, she did not freeze fortutudo at the same time as the rocks, questioning how long she can actually hold an animate entity. No, your claim is that the featless sword can survive millions of tons of force, theres no evidence for that claim, if your not claiming that then weve already been through how Shuraba would be hard pressed to damage Kain by normal bay.

Means nothing? why would she spend all that time charging if it meant nothing? no, I mean the area that contacted the skyscraper, if you pause it and go through it frame by frame you can see an area of energy, far larger than bayonettas head covers it as she strikes. Also, how do you explain the Skyscraper not breaking like it did on balder if physical forces are evident? Nothing comes from him to cast lightning, range=distance/time or somthing like that...theres no distance covered except by the bolt, as for the little blasts I would say as far as Kain can see, same with TK although tbh there is nothing to indicate a maximum range so "sight range" would be viable.

Her capabilities would be turned into fractions, just because his time powers are not as strong as hers, if he has it on and teleports next to her shes under his power, same with inspire hate since they work over time and in an area so all he has to do is be near her thanks to the teleport. Her reactions are only relevent if hes striking her, and tbh, shes not going to escape him even if he does try and strike her, dodging something tiny like a bullet is not hte same as dodging a large sword, she would have to jump back for his every swing.

All the skyscraper one was was a stronger charge for the stronger purpose. Same power, different level/amount. As seen with the nails the colours change on the fly. Do you know how many times Ive had to keep going back to that vid to see something >-< Dw my clip was lucky enough to glitch pause on that exact moment. But thats only the impact effect, the same thing happens when it hits Balder.

The only power that creates fear is its soul sucking ability. Nothing says it can do whats being implied here. 1) 'blow a chunk off' <- thats taking an area away to make the next hit more successful, not like this scene. Durability, especially of things that are not pure solids(humans, unlike rock), doesn't decrease on strike. Stamina does which means the person is easier to drop. 2) If his stamina was tied to his durability then when it drops is durability would too. 3) Without some direct power from the Reaver the questionablity of that scene can be contradicted by later events, and Dumah.

Dumah, with a body at or above Kain's, getting impaled would also contradict the FMV. Very doubtful that only one person would have durability that far above anything else in the verse.

Oh, no. Just moving this argument to the similar one above.

Only inside the wound or if striking on that area and use the open flesh to tear in. The wounds here do not cross. It varies if she affects angel or Witch enemies or not, does when she wants it to. Here for instance. Enzo is trapped for a 1min cutscene(+5secs in that storyframe part), up to 2mins5secs in battle, 26secs til a quick un-pause then 14secs after that. Thats 3m24s, 3m10s excluding the last 14s that Enzo in Bayonetta's view was effected. AKA enough time for around 40-50 full charged attacks. Nope, my claim is what I say it is, anything else is your claim. Theres no reason to think that a character cant use their weapon for fear of it breaking. If there is its from your claim, that needs backing up.

As in the charge means nothing when taking into account what made contact to the skyscraper. Yeah, the same hit effect, colour and size as when it collides with Balder. The same reason why if you fail at countering it hits her and doesn't even break the small platform she's standing on. Its nothing she did, its just an event that happened. Lightning and his other spells are two different things. (Not that his lightning will hit her) His other attacks need a given range. Seeing as a person can see for 3km(I think?)... can even see all the way to the Moon or stars lightyears away] <.< By in-game range/cutscenes he isn't past a dozen or so meters unless something says its longer.

Even if he has his time on and hers off then 'ported by her and struck, she would still have the necessary reactions and speed to either evade or throw up her Witch Time. His whole person is what she'd react to, not the attack. And if you can dodge supersonic bullets you can dodge a peak+ sword, even if he was the only one with time powers on he'd still be a third of her bullets speed.

Originally posted by BloodRain
All the skyscraper one was was a stronger charge for the stronger purpose. Same power, different level/amount. As seen with the nails the colours change on the fly. Do you know how many times Ive had to keep going back to that vid to see something >-< Dw my clip was lucky enough to glitch pause on that exact moment. But thats only the impact effect, the same thing happens when it hits Balder.

The only power that creates fear is its soul sucking ability. Nothing says it can do whats being implied here. 1) 'blow a chunk off' <- thats taking an area away to make the next hit more successful, not like this scene. Durability, especially of things that are not pure solids(humans, unlike rock), doesn't decrease on strike. Stamina does which means the person is easier to drop. 2) If his stamina was tied to his durability then when it drops is durability would too. 3) Without some direct power from the Reaver the questionablity of that scene can be contradicted by later events, and Dumah.

Dumah, with a body at or above Kain's, getting impaled would also contradict the FMV. Very doubtful that only one person would have durability that far above anything else in the verse.

Oh, no. Just moving this argument to the similar one above.

Only inside the wound or if striking on that area and use the open flesh to tear in. The wounds here do not cross. It varies if she affects angel or Witch enemies or not, does when she wants it to. Here for instance. Enzo is trapped for a 1min cutscene(+5secs in that storyframe part), up to 2mins5secs in battle, 26secs til a quick un-pause then 14secs after that. Thats 3m24s, 3m10s excluding the last 14s that Enzo in Bayonetta's view was effected. AKA enough time for around 40-50 full charged attacks. Nope, my claim is what I say it is, anything else is your claim. Theres no reason to think that a character cant use their weapon for fear of it breaking. If there is its from your claim, that needs backing up.

As in the charge means nothing when taking into account what made contact to the skyscraper. Yeah, the same hit effect, colour and size as when it collides with Balder. The same reason why if you fail at countering it hits her and doesn't even break the small platform she's standing on. Its nothing she did, its just an event that happened. Lightning and his other spells are two different things. (Not that his lightning will hit her) His other attacks need a given range. Seeing as a person can see for 3km(I think?)... can even see all the way to the Moon or stars lightyears away] <.< By in-game range/cutscenes he isn't past a dozen or so meters unless something says its longer.

Even if he has his time on and hers off then 'ported by her and struck, she would still have the necessary reactions and speed to either evade or throw up her Witch Time. His whole person is what she'd react to, not the attack. And if you can dodge supersonic bullets you can dodge a peak+ sword, even if he was the only one with time powers on he'd still be a third of her bullets speed.

So this is your theory now then? that its all the same magic ability, the chants are different andd so are the movements and depictions of magic are for "show" and all they are is a "stronger" charge? this is not necesserily evident, unless we see her charge up for long and longer striking different things with more force...especially when the difference between a fleshy pod and the skyscraper feat is vast. The impact effect when it hits Balder, whos body is a larger area than Bays head (less overall force on the scraper) smashes it too ruin, also energy does not expand across an area in yellow light...magic does that.

Thats a rather strange claim...only power that creates feat, how do you know? Its pure power says it can do it as does the on-screen evidence that your trying to ignore, its pretty simple logic, Top strength Kain>Raziels top strength claw but after reaver strike it weak Kain with bleeding chest>Raziels weak attack. So your claim is that you can only weaken a material or object by breaking a piece off? Stamina is how long you can stand, "physical effort"..theres no indication the reaver is draining his physical effort or that this would help him againt Kain. Theres no contradiction unless later events are the same and Dumah is completly unkown, has hardly any feats.

But Dumah is nothing alike to Kain, hes a deevolved being with but a portion of Kains power and furthermore, again you ignore context you have no idea how he was impaled or why and if he has Kains durability wooden pikes cannot pierce him unless he was greatly weakened first, we just dont know, logic dictates he was since no human can face a vampire in Soul reaver periods. Very doubtful? even the most powerful being in that verse? Kains got all the power apart from maybe Elder God.

The wounds are more or less in the same area, furthermore the reaver strikes Kains entire chest area, we see an area more or less as large as Kains left side of his body actually bleeding, thats more than Raziel could do at full strength in the intro. That does not really prove much, for one thing the angels and Jeanne again are free as birds so clearly this time power only works so well against inanimate objects, also the whole cutscene is slow becuse its done using a film wheel. I never said the sword could survive millins of tons of force and its not her weapon, its one she picks up along the way so unlike the Soul reaver was designed for her and used specifically by her throughout her game.

What just because her head makes the contact to send the magic through the charge is irrelevent? that does not even make sense....only it smashes to ruin on balder, not on Bays attack which should if your theory held up smash the skyscraper as well. Lighting wont hit her? you do realise its far quicker than bullets? Thats like saying Bays guns have a range equel to Balders distance from her or something just because thatsone of her feats ,does not make sense. Range=distance, considering Kains powers are magic based, not hydraulic/chemical like a weapons I think its fair to say Bays not going to be out of range unless she runs miles...

A:, no, she will be moving round in slow motion in the hopes of seeing someone she does not know is there...if shes assuming Kain is behind her every time he teleports then this is going to be even easier. B: What makes you say that? in this case shes not dodging a tiny piece of metal, shes dodging a 5ft+ sword and Kain.....area is far far far smaller with a bullet, e.g. despite its speed easier to dodge.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres nowhere that states or displays Marcus as wrong

Except, you know, Kain himself. Something about "dull mortal fools with the minds full of commerce and dung." It's a good line.



It's currently all there is to prove the ability even exists. Still you're going to need to prove your claim about Kain being able to do more than is shown.



I'm not ignoring you, and any mocking is the verbal joust that always seems to happen. I'll stop if you like. Regardless, I don't recall BloodRain conceding that one strike will kill, since the skyscraper durability is still being discussed and I believe the most recent argument is Bayonetta being too fast. Not that I plan on joining that one.



That they drink blood and have weird powers. Presumably Kain also knows that witches have weird powers. To be honest this point doesn't mean much, just that neither will immediately underestimate the other.



It still takes much more power to do what Magnus does than Kain, and Kain seems to only use it when angry enough. (Yes, yes, game mechanics, but it's an abstraction for anger.) Incineration is still a bit more than immolation, too. By the way, for your example to work it needs something a little closer to actual events. Magnus explosion is demonstrably more destructive than Kain setting things on fire. Besides, a blowtorch is designed specifically for melting and has a much greater amount of fuel and said fuel is more active than a simple firecracker, designed to make a lightshow, not heat. Not a great comparison to a flaming explosion versus a fire.




One drop. Proof please. Anyway, I've told you before that the cursor is a simple abstraction for aiming that can easily be figured out. It could be perfectly explained in-game as "aim at what you want to hit." That you want to disregard that is choosing only one part to focus on, ignoring the given limit. Still, you need to prove that Kain can do more than is shown in game.



Yes, over time, and dumping a massive amount of heat very quickly will break it a bit quicker. Magnus creating enough heat and pressure to do what normally takes quite a while normally in an instant just goes to show he's more powerful than Kain's simply setting something on fire.




Kain quite easily proved Marcus wrong, since he obviously didn't know his own limits. Further, he has failed to use the ability you claim he has when it would have been highly useful. Either he doesn't know what he's doing, or he simply can't do what you claim, or he would have. If you want to say he can do something, show it.






http://nosgoth.net/BO2/dialogue/Script4.html

I'd say the one refusing to take him to the Bishop because he's a vampire and argues with him. Great time to simply Charm the guy and make him do it, huh? But Marcus doesn't, and the choices are stupidity or inability.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Except, you know, Kain himself. Something about "dull mortal fools with the minds full of commerce and dung." It's a good line.



It's currently all there is to prove the ability even exists. Still you're going to need to prove your claim about Kain being able to do more than is shown.



I'm not ignoring you, and any mocking is the verbal joust that always seems to happen. I'll stop if you like. Regardless, I don't recall BloodRain conceding that one strike will kill, since the skyscraper durability is still being discussed and I believe the most recent argument is Bayonetta being too fast. Not that I plan on joining that one.



That they drink blood and have weird powers. Presumably Kain also knows that witches have weird powers. To be honest this point doesn't mean much, just that neither will immediately underestimate the other.



It still takes much more power to do what Magnus does than Kain, and Kain seems to only use it when angry enough. (Yes, yes, game mechanics, but it's an abstraction for anger.) Incineration is still a bit more than immolation, too. By the way, for your example to work it needs something a little closer to actual events. Magnus explosion is demonstrably more destructive than Kain setting things on fire. Besides, a blowtorch is designed specifically for melting and has a much greater amount of fuel and said fuel is more active than a simple firecracker, designed to make a lightshow, not heat. Not a great comparison to a flaming explosion versus a fire.




One drop. Proof please. Anyway, I've told you before that the cursor is a simple abstraction for aiming that can easily be figured out. It could be perfectly explained in-game as "aim at what you want to hit." That you want to disregard that is choosing only one part to focus on, ignoring the given limit. Still, you need to prove that Kain can do more than is shown in game.



Yes, over time, and dumping a massive amount of heat very quickly will break it a bit quicker. Magnus creating enough heat and pressure to do what normally takes quite a while normally in an instant just goes to show he's more powerful than Kain's simply setting something on fire.




Kain quite easily proved Marcus wrong, since he obviously didn't know his own limits. Further, he has failed to use the ability you claim he has when it would have been highly useful. Either he doesn't know what he's doing, or he simply can't do what you claim, or he would have. If you want to say he can do something, show it.






http://nosgoth.net/BO2/dialogue/Script4.html

I'd say the one refusing to take him to the Bishop because he's a vampire and argues with him. Great time to simply Charm the guy and make him do it, huh? But Marcus doesn't, and the choices are stupidity or inability.

That was Kain commenting on his own resistance, nobody elses.

False, Marcus is the proof as are his actions. There is plenty shown, Marcus proves aggression is not a factor.

The "verbal" joust is still mocking, if you want to play the "respect others" record then at least listen to it yourself.

Although Bay treats even the largest and strongest threats with little care, Kain who does not look like a large and strong threat would put her at a disadvantage wheras Kain has ample experiance with magic users of many avenues. Also, Kain does not mess around like Bay, Dante and other characters in vs.

How do you know? they both have the same effect, same power and displayed on similiar targets (magnus on Kain, Kain on others) they burn just the same, youve been tripped up on the "explosions" part so trying to continue the whole "magnus makes explosions" nonsense is rubbish, they both use pure heat, incineration. Also immolate/incinerate can be used in the exact same context.

I was exaggerating, I like how you try and ask for evidence from anything as if you have this authority, and by doing so it allows you to attempt to convince yourself that your correct. Of course, you would convince me better if you did not miss the point time and time agian, possibly on purpose. And "aggression" is a simple abstraction for what the game doesn ot want you to target due to balance/mechanics.

They both do the same thing, Kains just never tried immolating statues iirc, this does not give you any footing for your argument that Kain is weaker unless you can prove Kain gets a weaker version.

A lot of people do not know their own limits around Kain who is the only one so far showing a canon resistance, in this case it will be Bayonetta who does not know her own limits. Again, highly useful in your opinion, you have not the slightest fathom of what a 200 year old vampire and user of mental domination would deem suitable, and you have little knowledge on Lok in general so you have no place to say.

Why use any ounce of power when a few words suffice? your making a mockery again....theres no real logic behind mind controlling everyone nad having to dominate their actions. I am not going to take out a long machete to cut my bread if a small butter knife will do the job....

Kain does not take peoples power source, he actually takes their Dark gift. Most vampires do not actually have a "power source", their abilities are genetic 9/10. Nice try though, if I tried to claim Kains sons had all the same powers as Kain does, then you would be correct but thats not this dicussion.

Just having fun. I don't really care about this thread since Quanchi came back.