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Setting: Naboo plains, no obstructions.

1.Lightsabers only
2.Force only
3.All out

Do you guys think that Sidious has become powerful enough by ROTJ to comfortably defeat Yoda, or does Yoda still hold an edge?

The RotS novelization clearly has Yoda admitting to himself that he lost his fight to RotS Sidious "before he was even born". 23 years of focus and study will have only sharpened Palpatine's powers.

/thread.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The RotS novelization clearly has Yoda admitting to himself that he lost his fight to RotS Sidious "before he was even born".

Not due to being inferior combat wise though.

Agreed. The movie - higher level of canon to be sure - clearly shows that Yoda had the upper hand until he had his great fall. Yoda clearly outmaneuvers Sidious in lightsaber combat, and in the Force it's no contest; every time Sidious throws something big Yoda's way, Yoda absorbs it and redirects it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Agreed. The movie - higher level of canon to be sure - clearly shows that Yoda had the upper hand until he had his great fall. Yoda clearly outmaneuvers Sidious in lightsaber combat, and in the Force it's no contest; every time Sidious throws something big Yoda's way, Yoda absorbs it and redirects it.

Even though I kind of agree, I would like to know what exactly made it clear that Yoda outmaneuvered Sidious in lightsaber combat. In the movie ofcourse.

Basically the way I took quote is that if Yoda were to kill Sidious, the Jedi would be labeled as villians on a galactic scale, even more so then what was already being put forth. Yoda killing Sidious would cement them as villianous in the eyes of many galactic leaders and governments. So falt out murdering Sidious would = failure so far as the big picture is concerned. The brighter he shined, the darker the shadow became - or something to that effect. I wish I had the quote on hand.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Basically the way I took quote is that if Yoda were to kill Sidious, the Jedi would be labeled as villians on a galactic scale, even more so then what was already being put forth. Yoda killing Sidious would cement them as villianous in the eyes of many galactic leaders and governments. So falt out murdering Sidious would = failure so far as the big picture is concerned. The brighter he shined, the darker the shadow became - or something to that effect. I wish I had the quote on hand.

Why the hell would Yoda go face him in the first place then?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Why the hell would Yoda go face him in the first place then?

The novel states that at some point during their duel that Yoda realized this - so he obviously was oblivious to the fact before hand.

The script, which is higher canon than the novel makes it clear that Yoda had the upper hand and even had an opportunity to kill Sidious. Why didn't he take advantage of the opportunity? - Read my last post.

This is just my theory.

I doubt that Yoda would give a shit if the common people disliked them if it was a choice betwen that and the Sith controlling the galaxy. And Yoda was the one who ran from that fight, not Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt that Yoda would give a shit if the common people disliked them if it was a choice betwen that and the Sith controlling the galaxy. And Yoda was the one who ran from that fight, not Sidious.

Again - the script, higher canon than the novel, makes it clear that Yoda was in control of that fight. And as far as him 'running from the fight'; that doesn't mean that he was losing or lost to Sidious. "Careful timing we need."

Would you care to quote the parts of said script that make this clear? Because the Lucas-approved novel makes outright states that Yoda lost that fight.

Yeah it does. Yoda wasn't injured in any way and could have easily chosen to continue the fight. Instead he flees with his tail between his legs.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Again - the script, higher canon than the novel, makes it clear that Yoda was in control of that fight. And as far as him 'running from the fight'; that doesn't mean that he was losing or lost to Sidious. "Careful timing we need."

The script is not higher canon than the novel. In fact, it is contradicted throughout numerous places such as Shaak Ti's death. Nor does it make it clear that Yoda was in control of the fight.

Originally posted by ares834
The script is not higher canon than the novel. In fact, it is contradicted throughout numerous places such as Shaak Ti's death. Nor does it make it clear that Yoda was in control of the fight.

Yeah, you're correct. It's the same level; G-canon.

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.

To be clear, Sidious was running in the beginning.

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

Yoda was handling Sidious' force barrage and disarmed him in lightsaber combat. At no point during their battle does the script imply that Sidious has the upper hand until the end (which is arguable). It does imply however that Yoda was superior in the force department as well as with a lightsaber. So let me rephrase what I said earlier. The script implies that Yoda was in control of the battle and appeared to have an opportunity to finish Sidious off, but didn't. Why? Who knows.

None of that happened in the movie though. mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of that happened in the movie though. mmm



You know damn well that the script holds up unless it DIRECTLY contradicts what is shown on screen. So much editing and cutting away from the action.

mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of that happened in the movie though. mmm


...Oh, and I happened in your mom last night.

Did you just reply to the same post twice?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai


You know damn well that the script holds up unless it DIRECTLY contradicts what is shown on screen. So much editing and cutting away from the action.

mmm

No.... I don't.

Since when has something that wasn't even shot, not even as a deleted scene, been part of the movie?

So how does Palpatine from RotJ compare to himself from RotS? I assume that he has become more powerful, but how much so?

His Force lightning goes from 'melt faces and fvck up black people' to 'completely disintergration'* levels, TK from 'senate pod' to 'small shuttle' and his telepathy moves to mind-****ing millions levels. Also by this time he has mastered his body-surfing immortality technique as well as collected what might well be the largest collection of Force knowledge in the mythos.

Edit: *Though Sithis shows him disintergrating the Sith worm before that iirc.

When did Sidious use TK on a small shuttle?

I count the darkside ending of TFU for some reason.

Wanna fight about it?! excellent

I recall Gideon mentioning that at the time of ROTS, they were in fact equals, however, Yoda was known to be the "greatest foe the darkside had ever known" or something to that effect.

That said, in the movie, we see that it is Yoda that's disarmed by Sidious and then subsequently blasted from the pod, only to flee as soon as he got his bearings.

If this is RoTJ Sidious, then his force powers have gown exponentially and would more than make up for any lack of physical mobility or agility.

Other than the younger clone body, does DE Sidious hold much of a power advantage over this version of Sidious?

Originally posted by ares834
The script is not higher canon than the novel. In fact, it is contradicted throughout numerous places such as Shaak Ti's death. Nor does it make it clear that Yoda was in control of the fight.

The novel is also contradicted by the movie. Shall we exclude it from the debate then? But in that case, this would turn into a landslide victory for Yoda, given that anything to be said pro Sidious comes from the novel.

And, please: Unlike the C-canon novel, the script is G-canon. So. Yes. It is higher canon than the novel, and we just have to exclude information directly overwritten by higher level canon (the "updated" movie version in this case). Yoda dominating the fight is not among the information overwritten, neither is the idea of the Jedi Master disarming his opponent. So?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I count the darkside ending of TFU for some reason.

Wanna fight about it?! excellent

Nope, that just helps my favorite character out

ROTJ Sidious vs ROTS Yoda:

While Sidious no doubt grew more powerful with the force due to gaining more knowledge and 23 more years of intense study, I still see Yoda as being a great challenge to Sidious in the force. Sidious spent most of his time studying different aspects of the force that he did not already know, and developing and mastering new powers. So if Sidious uses his standard combat feats (TK, lightning, and lightsaber prowess), I still see it being a very good fight, with Yoda having an even greater advantage with the lightsaber than he did with ROTS Sidious.

I guess one could argue that Sidious can use far more techniques on Yoda than he did before. But question is which of these different techniques would he use against Yoda in the midst of combat?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The novel is also contradicted by the movie. Shall we exclude it from the debate then?

I never said it was not canon did I? Nope, I didn't.



And the movie itself where Yoda runs off with his tail between his legs saying "Failed, I have."



Where have scripts been called G-canon, the only place I see that says such is wikipedia which also calls the movie novelizations G-canon as well.



And yet Yoda dominating the fight isn't in the script. Sure he disarms Sidious, but Sidious also manages to disarm Yoda as well.

Yes, but notably Sidious didn't run away afterwards with his tail between his legs.



Lucas personally read, editted and annotated the novel. That makes it just as much G-canon as any script, and more so then parts of the script that were taken out of the final version.

'Piffle.

Anyone who claims I amended that statement is either 1) lying, or 2) deceived by liars. Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

Period.'

Matthew Stover.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, but notably Sidious didn't run away afterwards with his tail between his legs..

This has been already adressed. It's all about politics...POLITICS!


and...Yoda has no tail. Canon fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did you just reply to the same post twice?



No.... I don't.

Since when has something that wasn't even shot, not even as a deleted scene, been part of the movie?

what? Stop playing ignorant, we have been over this so many freaking times. this exact same argument. Why waste his time making him prove something to you that has been proven to you many times before?

A early version of the script is absolutely not canon imo. If Lucas never even bothered to film it, then he obviously didn't want it in and took it out early.

Originally posted by ares834
I never said it was not canon did I? Nope, I didn't.


No. You just thought about ignoring information from it, which pretty much comes down to the same result, doesn't it?



Yeah. Just because of Sidious, and not because of the group of Clone Troopers already at the side of the Sith Lord, right?



Everything coming from Lucas is considered G-Canon. He wrote the script. They are G-Canon. That's a pretty simple concept.



Yes. But Yoda disarms Sidious with his duelling abilities, while Sidious once more (like seen in the movie) makes use of a higher ground position that Yoda jumps to (making him open for the attack). The script gives Yoda an advantage in both lightsaber skill and force mastery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A early version of the script is absolutely not canon imo. If Lucas never even bothered to film it, then he obviously didn't want it in and took it out early.

not when there are breaks in the action, allowing the material to fit nicely in the gaps. This is the only argument that makes the book true. Without that, we might as well be over in the MvF.

in this case, Canon> your opinion of what Lucas wanted.

Perhaps I misspoke. It is not my opinion. It is not in the movie. Lucas did not film it. He did not approve it. It is not canon.

By taking the scene entirely out of the movie he has unequivably shown that he does not approve of it (as he did to the novel) and that he didn't want it in movies events.

Period.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By taking the scene entirely out of the movie he has unequivably shown that he does not approve of it (as he did to the novel) and that he didn't want it in movies events.

Period.

By taking the scene out of the movie, he may just have made a concession to the rule, that he wasn't allowed to deliver a four hour long movie. Something that he outright proclaims himself in the RotS DVD specials.

There goes your "opinion".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps I misspoke. It is not my opinion. It is not in the movie. Lucas did not film it. He did not approve it. It is not canon.


Um. He did more than approve it. He wrote it.




Actually... since neither the Movie or the Book tells us where Sidious's lightsaber has gone, this scene fits PERFECTLY, and is in fact NECESSARY to make the leap between the scene in Sidious' office and the Senate Chamber. I don't know why this is so hard to understand, as you at the exact same time try to push the parts of the book that aren't in the movie either.

this is a perfect example of the hypocritical picking and choosing that i was talking about.

Originally posted by Borbarad
By taking the scene out of the movie, he may just have made a concession to the rule, that he wasn't allowed to deliver a four hour long movie. Something that he outright proclaims himself in the RotS DVD specials.

There goes your "opinion".

He never filmed them, so they never had a chance of being in the movie at all. He didn't take them out from a finished product, he cut it completely from canon.



Look, what makes you think its canon at all? The quote about canon only applies to 'Deleted Scenes' specifically.

I'm not picking and choosing shit, its not mentioned as being canon, so it isn't.

unbelievable. Whatever is convenient for you I suppose. You are wrong, however.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He never filmed them, so they never had a chance of being in the movie at all. He didn't take them out from a finished product, he cut it completely from canon.

Says who, pal?

He did, by his own words, cut it from a length of about 240 minutes to about 140 minutes. Care to link me to the source that lists the entire cut content in detail?



Yes. You are. The Holocron Database, run by the guy who keeps an eye on the canon, defines G-Canon as "the movies (their most recent release),the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself."

LFL canon policy > your opinion.

Originally posted by truejedi
unbelievable. Whatever is convenient for you I suppose. You are wrong, however.

Edited for humility.

Having tracked down the Borbarads above quote I freely and openly conceed the debate. The quote regarding canon that I had access to only referred to the Deleted Scenes and I was unaware that any other existed.

Though now I really do have to question why the hell Yoda ran away if he was seemingly winning the exchange.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Though now I really do have to question why the hell Yoda ran away if he was seemingly winning the exchange.

To continue fighting, he would have needed to get back up to Sidious, who was again in the better position and had reinforcements in the guise of a group of Clone Troopers coming in.

Yoda had no other reasonable choice than leaving. Anything else would have led to his (senseless) death.

JT
This is just my theory.

It doesn't fit.



If your theory is based on the notion that Yoda realized destroying Palpatine would only make the situation potentially worse, then why would release Palpatine and then vow to kill him right after? Motivationally speaking, it makes no sense for Yoda to conclude that the duel is pointless and then continue fighting it.



I direct you to the 4:15 minute mark of this video. Yoda is seen leaping from what appears to be the Chancellor's podium to engage Sidious, who is a notable distance away, with Senate pods at the ready. Yoda's and Sidious's physical locations do not match the duel as portrayed in the script, in which it is Yoda who jumps from the podium to a lower pod; Palpatine remains in the podium until Yoda hurls a pod back to him. The movements and decisions/motivations of the characters don't match what we see in the film.

Wow. Most of us are five year veterans at least, and we're still bickering over what part of the most discussed movie constitutes canon or not.


You'd think we'd have this down pat by now.

Tbh, I don't give a damn. I've just gotta get my mind off of the fact that Kentucky is the only fvcking state in the fvcking union that is not selling Journey's new album early.

One more reason to move to Missouri.

It's bullshit. I'm staring at a picture of a guy with seventeen ****ing copies.

LL: You would think... I read the original attack on the FREAKING SCRIPT and felt like a double-face-palm was in order. We had this exact argument, that ended with the exact quote that Borborad provided literally YEARS ago. we aren't progressing, it would seem.

I may have to go buy it now, just to taunt you.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
It's bullshit. I'm staring at a picture of a guy with seventeen ****ing copies. That's a pretty gay waste of money.


Originally posted by truejedi
LL: You would think... I read the original attack on the FREAKING SCRIPT and felt like a double-face-palm was in order. We had this exact argument, that ended with the exact quote that Borborad provided literally YEARS ago. we aren't progressing, it would seem. Who's the purp. this time? Is it Neph?

That Neph's such a big ol' silly billy.

it was. we listened to his KOTOR arguments so long he went back and attacked other canon things. I still love him though. no homo.

L
That's a pretty gay waste of money.

Yeah, it's a taunt.

So... Movies, script, and novel... all G-canon. But movies are the highest G-canon. Script is second highest. Canon third. G1, G2, G3, respectively.

If a piece of G2 or G3 contradict G1, that part is overruled in favor of G1.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If a piece of G2 or G3 contradict G1, that part is overruled in favor of G1.

And the scene in question is definitely overruled by "G1".

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. You just thought about ignoring information from it, which pretty much comes down to the same result, doesn't it?

What am I ignoring from the script?



There were no troopers at the time. They didn't arrive until after Yoda fled, it was only Sidious. I also recal (I could be wrong) that in the commentary Lucas says he put the "failed" line in to make it clear that Yoda lost. I'll check when I get home tomorrow.



And the novelization was line edited by Lucas.




Perhaps with the lightsaber, but nothing in the script suggests that he had an advantage in force mastery.

actually.. Not really RB....

The movie cuts back thirty seconds later than you are supposing it is. Nice thing about the gap is, there is no way to measure time there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... Movies, script, and novel... all G-canon. But movies are the highest G-canon. Script is second highest. Canon third. G1, G2, G3, respectively.

If a piece of G2 or G3 contradict G1, that part is overruled in favor of G1.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Sun920607.jpg

tj
actually.. Not really RB....

Actually... yes, TJ.





^ This does not follow what we actually see in the movie at all. When the fight resumes from Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, we see that Palpatine is far away from the Chancellor's podium and is preparing to throw pods at Yoda. The script says that Palpatine is still on the podium and Yoda is fleeing from him, instead of what the movie shows us, which is Yoda pursuing him from the podium.

so it still fits within the gap, right? especially since we come back in the middle of this pod-throwin action? All of the above could easily happen before the flash-back.

Originally posted by truejedi
so it still fits within the gap, right? especially since we come back in the middle of this pod-throwin action? All of the above could easily happen before the flash-back.

?
No... when it cuts back to Yoda vs. Sidious, Yoda is just landing on a Senate pod, lightsaber in hand, from the direction of the Chancellor's podium in the center of the Rotunda. Sidious is already on another pod, waiting to strike at him. According to the script, Palpatine only leaves the Chancellor's podium after the pods have been hurled. That contradicts what we see in the film completely.

i'll go back and watch this tonight so i don't say something i regret, but i think we are thinking of different gaps. till then, it's off to the bar to try to watch lebron james! : )

Originally posted by truejedi
i'll go back and watch this tonight so i don't say something i regret, but i think we are thinking of different gaps. till then, it's off to the bar to try to watch lebron james! : )

k.
For the record, I could just not be thinking straight. I'm too busy frothing at the mouth over this damn CD.

Just download it.

EDIT: There's only one gap.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Just download it.

EDIT: There's only one gap.

??

Is there any way that I can edit this thread to contain a poll? Would've been smart to start with one.

Nope. Maybe you could ask a mod... if we had those.

don't ask a mod. only bad things will follow. make a new thread. no one cares if you duplicate.

Are you being serious or is this sarcasm?

being pretty serious.

Yes.

Then I will duplicate.

Originally posted by oaa
Then I will duplicate.

Ah, you reproduce asexually than?

tj, what other gap are you talking about?







insert random joke of your choice about Kyle's mom's vagina

teehee. let me check here. : )

okay, just for convenience, I'll post everything pertinent. I think I see your argument, though I don't know if i necessarily agree yet. I'll think about it here.

okay: Pertinent part of the script:




Now, the end of section 201 coincides perfectly with the gap that begins at:

3:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEjcvIRMDo


Alright, now in my opinion, from section 203, this part does not appear:



And the action picks up again perfectly at:
4:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEjcvIRMDo

Where the script says:



Now, your complaint is that Yoda should have been on the podium, since it says that the "Senate pod heads towards the podium" right? However, since it already says that he has leaped to a lower senate pod, the fact that the mooring headed towards the podium doesn't really change anything, since the next line says they are hurled "at yoda"

The only other difference being that the confrontation with the lightning explosion says Podium in the script, whereas it is on a pod in the movie. However, since the script says that Sidious has "leaped away" already (thanks to Yoda's attack with the pod) it is insinuating that he jumped FROM a pod (as shown to be where he was standing at the break ending at 4:14) onto the Podium. THerefore the only part of the script that directly contradicts the movie is that he leaped onto another pod instead of back onto the podium (which logically he couldn't have been standing on BEFORE "leaping away" when Yoda threw the pod)

My argument is that the movements in the script do not match with the movements reflected in the film.

When the fight between Yoda and Sidious resumes, neither one of them is on the podium. Yoda is leaping from the direction of the podium and touches down on a Senate platform. Palpatine is farther away, standing on a Senate platform of his own and hurling others at Yoda.

In the script, the final lightning battle takes place on the Chancellor's podium instead of a Senate platform. The movements and actions reflected within the script where you say the film resumes do not match what we actually see.

^ We see this in the film. Good thus far.



^ We do not see this in the film. Questionable, especially when one wonders why Yoda would release Palpatine after vowing to kill him.



^ This does not match what we see in the film. When the fight scene resumes, Yoda is just landing on a Senate platform after leaping from the Chancellor's podium. Palpatine is already in the distance, further from the podium than Yoda, on a platform of his own and preparing to hurl others at Yoda. The script says he was still standing on the Chancellor's podium and it was Yoda who retreated.



^ This, too, does not match what we see in the film. Palpatine jumps to a Senate platform, Yoda follows, and the Emperor's lightning doesn't hit Yoda or slam him into anything -- it just disarms him. Likewise, when the fight ends, Palpatine is dangling from the side of his pod, not pursuing Yoda.

My conclusion is that the script of the fight scene, at various points, defies what we see in the movie.

Sorry if that seems unarticulated, btw. I'm exhausted as all get out.

Not as exhausted as your Mom was last night, when she put out.

Ha. ahahahahahaha.

My old Yoda versus Sidious commentary begins here and goes on for a few pages.

God bless that argument.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
My old Yoda versus Sidious commentary begins here and goes on for a few pages.

God bless that argument.

God curse the countless hours, or rather years that I won't get back from reading the same arguments repeatedly.