Bane with venom vs The Kingpin

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cdtm
Who wins?

cdtm
From what I've seen of Kingpin, he seems to be a "ringer"...

Outperformed Spidey against Silverman, for one, holding his own for a little bit before losing.

long pig
Somehow KP is superhumanly strong and durable. As well as at least near peak human athletically. I don't know why, but he is. And he's a great fighter, too. I'd say he wins.

Martian_mind
Bane doesn't need the venom. He takes it.

cdtm
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Bane doesn't need the venom. He takes it.

Kingpin beat Red Skull. RS couldn't even hurt him by kicking his legs or stomping on his insteps... He often gives Spidey and Daredevil problems, and again, he held his own against Silvermane, who's what, a 15 tonner?

It's ridiculous, some of the feats he has.

long pig
Really? What's he done without venom?

Martian_mind
Bane's ripped a man's arm of and beaten him to death with it while not on Venom, which was pretty goddamn impressive. He's stalemated Batman while not on Venom once IIRC, he manhandled King snake, and he's done a bunch of other shit in Secret Six that's basically superhuman.

long pig
Oddly enough, KP'S ripped a guys arm off and beat him with it, too. Not to mention hanging with various superhumans. But I get you point. I think KP's a better fighter and just as fast, not to mention way better tacticion.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by long pig
Oddly enough, KP'S ripped a guys arm off and beat him with it, too. Not to mention hanging with various superhumans. But I get you point. I think KP's a better fighter and just as fast, not to mention way better tacticion.


He's not a better tactician bro. While yes, Bane was portrayed as dumb muscle after his first couple of appearances, he has been definitively restored to the man who broke the bat as of late. That's a tie too. It's a close fight without Venom, with Venom though it's a stomp.

cdtm
Originally posted by long pig
Oddly enough, KP'S ripped a guys arm off and beat him with it, too. Not to mention hanging with various superhumans. But I get you point. I think KP's a better fighter and just as fast, not to mention way better tacticion.

And much, much stronger.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7509/1645ba2.jpg

long pig
Originally posted by Martian_mind
He's not a better tactician bro. While yes, Bane was portrayed as dumb muscle after his first couple of appearances, he has been definitively restored to the man who broke the bat as of late. That's a tie too. It's a close fight without Venom, with Venom though it's a stomp. I've never seen him portrayed as anytimi but a brute, but I believe you. I'll agree, then, that he wins. But a stomp? It takes a high meta to stomp KP.

long pig
Dude, KP isn't stronger than Bane w venom.

cdtm
Originally posted by long pig
Dude, KP isn't stronger than Bane w venom.

The scan has KP ripping apart a steel scaffold with his bare hands.

That's WAY more impressive then ripping off someones arm and beating them with it.

Not to mention all the times KP overpowered Spidey... Could Bane lay claim to comparable, or greater, feats?

Harbinger
IIRC, when Bane first came out, he was damn intelligent. Literally had a photographic memory (he deduced Batman's true identity in about a year or so), and also came up with the plan of letting guys like Joker, Scarecrow, etc. out of prison so that he could tire Bats out as opposed to taking him on directly (it was how he got the upper hand against Bruce and broke his back, IIRC).

Don't know much about Bane now or more recent portrayals, but I know Bane was a damn good tactician at one point. If he's being restored back to that, then.....yeah.

long pig
His bio says the venom makes him stupid when he's on it. So, I dunno.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by long pig
Really? What's he done without venom?

Owned 2 Hourmen at once. Who's much stronger than Kingpin.

long pig
Sounds badass. I never have him a chance because I hate villains who are nothing but brawn and no brains. What would you say his iq is?

Prep-Man
Bane is an homage of Doc Savage, I believe. He's very smart when he wants to be.

cdtm
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Owned 2 Hourmen at once. Who's much stronger than Kingpin.

Could be less impressive then it sounds, considering the strength never came with comparable durability. Or not that I've seen, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, if he tanked some attacks or matched his strength, that's another story...

Prep-Man
Originally posted by cdtm
Could be less impressive then it sounds, considering the strength never came with comparable durability. Or not that I've seen, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, if he tanked some attacks or matched his strength, that's another story...

He fought both of them. Check it out in the respect thread.

cdtm
Originally posted by Prep-Man
He fought both of them. Check it out in the respect thread.


The guy he tore the arm off of was wearing some kind of power armor. That's pretty impressive.

There's some good stuff in the respect thread, like ripping off a piece of concrete wall to use a a weapon, owning Azrael, breaking judomasters back..

His fight with the Hourmen for the most part happened without Miraclo, though. He actually prevented one of them from injecting himself with it, and this was a plot point so he could force them to become addicted to a new form of venom to save themselves.

Of the scans from their fight, there's only one that references Miraclo, and Bane does take a kick. Impressive in and of itself, but also inconsistent enough with his other feats where you can write it off as PIS.

Compare with multiple instances of Fisk outright overpowering Spiderman, with Spidey stating Kingpin's is hurting him, or Daredevil hurting his legs and hands against his body, and tiring himself out by repeatedly hitting him over the head with a billy club, to no effect.

Also, keep in mind he's quick enough to keep up with Spidey, as well.

Maybe it's not as one sided as I thought, but I still think Fisk has the edge.

cdtm
And, even if we accept that Bane could regularly take an attack from a Miraclo enhanced Hourman, that still doesn't make this an auto win for Bane.

For the simple fact that Spidey himself, has taken attacks from high end bricks, like Hulk.

Yet Kingpin still manages to give him all he could handle, and often holds the upper hand.

Should be one hell of a fight, imo.

Prep-Man
True, I think this could go either way. Both are equally strong.

Placidity
Um, didn't Spidey make KP look like a chump when he started b*tch slappin him to humiliate him?

cdtm
Is it true, that venom was revealed as a Mirclo derivative?

Has he ever carried cars or anything blatantly superhuman while on the stuff? Or has anyone else on venom? (Nothing like that in Banes respect thread.)

If he's a class 80 tonner, I take it back about this being a good fight...

Omega Vision
Kingpin hasn't been at Spidey wrecking levels in a few decades AFAIK.

Bane wins.

iceman24567
Banes best strength feat recently while on venom is ripping a car apart like tissue granted cars arent even that durable anymore

iceman24567
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Kingpin hasn't been at Spidey wrecking levels in a few decades AFAIK.

Bane wins. This hes not even close to as strong as he used to be

YoungGunna
Bane wins

long pig
As much as I hate to say it, because it gives sm nut riders a boner, but Spidey held back on kp almost every time. Did anyone read the issue where daredevil beats kp nearly to death?

cdtm
Originally posted by long pig
As much as I hate to say it, because it gives sm nut riders a boner, but Spidey held back on kp almost every time. Did anyone read the issue where daredevil beats kp nearly to death?

No. Is it a recent issue?

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7359/daredevil17116fo4.jpg

I guess Kingpin really has been depowered, if DD can beat him now.

Digi
Originally posted by long pig
As much as I hate to say it, because it gives sm nut riders a boner, but Spidey held back on kp almost every time. Did anyone read the issue where daredevil beats kp nearly to death?

Nah, I've espoused this a few times, and it's about era. KP just isn't written like he once was. It wasn't a holding-back issue. As incomprehensible as some of the feats were, KP demonstrated many times that he was as strong as Spidey, stronger than Cap, DD, Red Skull, even tooled Batman in a crossover (probably non-canon, but meh). He also broke steel bars, bent others, moved several-ton-sized objects, etc. etc. They aren't isolated feats.

Now, is SM > KP. Of course, at any point in time. But not because of brute strength (he once lost a straight-up grapple with KP) nor combat speed. He just has other tools that put him a leg up.

There's no official retcon, but it's ludicrous to say it's the exact same power level throughout the decades. It's just been a slow transition to just a schemer. Pre-90's KP owns. Post-90's get beaten. Anything in between, who knows. He lacks a ton of feats from that era. People want a nice, easy answer that is true for any incarnation, and it doesn't exist with KP.

long pig
He held back. Stop trying to be unbiased, digi and let the fanboy flag fly. I know you keep it tucked in your back pocket. Some may have never seen it but I have....evil face

long pig
Originally posted by cdtm
No. Is it a recent issue?

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7359/daredevil17116fo4.jpg

I guess Kingpin really has been depowered, if DD can beat him now. No, it's from 06 I think. He destroyed kp and took his place. A very close second to miller's run when it comes to the story quality. Hell, you get to see kp's backstory and you almost root for him. You definitatly understand him more. And hey, being beat by DD isn't a hard thing to get. He could handle most streets on any given day. Every one loves to low call DD. Why?

Digi
Originally posted by long pig
He held back. Stop trying to be unbiased, digi and let the fanboy flag fly. I know you keep it tucked in your back pocket. Some may have never seen it but I have....evil face

Being a fan means admitting faults and limits. I don't give two sh*ts if my favorite characters lose in forum battles. That aspect of the forum is rather meaningless to me. 90% of the posting I do is simply when I feel I have some insight on the characters that many others don't.

Read through my reasoning and see if you find fault with it. It's about eras and how he was written. Current loses handily. Classic wins just as handily. There's no clear break in the two (which is why I left the 90's as sort of a "who knows?" time), but the difference is provably obvious.

Q99
Originally posted by cdtm
Is it true, that venom was revealed as a Mirclo derivative?

Has he ever carried cars or anything blatantly superhuman while on the stuff? Or has anyone else on venom? (Nothing like that in Banes respect thread.)

If he's a class 80 tonner, I take it back about this being a good fight...

It is related to Miraclo but does not provide near that level of strength.


The full formula of Miraclo has always been kept a secret to just the Hourmen.

long pig
I don't disagree at all, but you don't have to be so damn level headed all the time. There's nothing wrong with geeking out every so often. It'd be nice to see is all. big grin Basically, you make us all look bad with your rationalality.

cdtm
Originally posted by Digi
Nah, I've espoused this a few times, and it's about era. KP just isn't written like he once was. It wasn't a holding-back issue. As incomprehensible as some of the feats were, KP demonstrated many times that he was as strong as Spidey, stronger than Cap, DD, Red Skull, even tooled Batman in a crossover (probably non-canon, but meh). He also broke steel bars, bent others, moved several-ton-sized objects, etc. etc. They aren't isolated feats.

Now, is SM > KP. Of course, at any point in time. But not because of brute strength (he once lost a straight-up grapple with KP) nor combat speed. He just has other tools that put him a leg up.

There's no official retcon, but it's ludicrous to say it's the exact same power level throughout the decades. It's just been a slow transition to just a schemer. Pre-90's KP owns. Post-90's get beaten. Anything in between, who knows. He lacks a ton of feats from that era. People want a nice, easy answer that is true for any incarnation, and it doesn't exist with KP.

The funny thing about the Batman/Daredevil crossover, is it happened sometime in 2000. Seemed like classic Kingpin to me.

Digi
Originally posted by long pig
I don't disagree at all, but you don't have to be so damn level headed all the time. There's nothing wrong with geeking out every so often. It'd be nice to see is all. big grin Basically, you make us all look bad with your rationalality.

laughing out loud

wink

Originally posted by cdtm
The funny thing about the Batman/Daredevil crossover, is it happened sometime in 2000. Seemed like classic Kingpin to me.

...yeah, I don't know what to make of that. I tend to ignore it, as most crossovers are non-canon. Anyway, the invisible "era divide" I perceive may be more recent than I previously stated, but it still exists in force. Otherwise it's impossible to rationally reconcile KP's last 5 years with, say, his first 5.

long pig
He's gotten older, maybe?

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