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Who wins

Location:Galactic city

positions:ki adi mundi is currently leaving the jedi temple to find darth maul, Darth maul: In palpatine's office

Other then get slapped around by Grievous, what has Mundi done?

He did well against Ventress iirc.

Originally posted by Q99
He did well against Ventress iirc. Maul>Ventress.

Maul wins.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Maul>Ventress.

Maul wins.

Yep well the Clone Wars animation has hinted at Maul(as of TPM) as having been significantly more powerful than Ventress is (as of CW), with Dooku training Savage to have "the same power as the Great Sith Lord Darth Maul" so they could defeat Sidious together.

Whilst he clearly did not feel Ventress was that powerful yet, to help him defeat Sidious. Although he seemed to be training her to reach that level of power.

yeah. i think Maul in this fight.

Ventress > Maul


(But Maul wins anyway.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yep well the Clone Wars animation has hinted at Maul(as of TPM) as having been significantly more powerful than Ventress is (as of CW), with Dooku training Savage to have "the same power as the Great Sith Lord Darth Maul" so they could defeat Sidious together.

Whilst he clearly did not feel Ventress was that powerful yet, to help him defeat Sidious. Although he seemed to be training her to reach that level of power.


Hmm.....wow, I am way back with what is happening in CW now.
I must admit, I find it interesting that Dooku would have conceived such plan, considering that he was supposedly shitting his pants anytime he was speaking with Sids or sth along that line.

He really wants to defeat Sidious, or is it just a ploy?

Ventress would skewer Maul any day of the week.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

He really wants to defeat Sidious, or is it just a ploy?

He's a Sith, of course he wants to defeat Sidious.

Sidious's plan puts Sidious in charge of the new Empire. While being second to that isn't bad, he wants to be the one in charge.

Anakin thinks AotC Obi-Wan is stronger then Mace Windu and smarter than Yoda.

Who gives a shit what the characters think.

there is no proof in those episodes of Maul's superiority to ventress, but it IS certainly hinted at. Season 4 might tell us what we need to know. i CANNOT believe that they are thinking of bringing Maul back to life though.

Of course if Maul comes back he is probably a lot more powerful now, so it would still give us no clue whose more powerful between TPM Maul and CW Ventress. So those episodes "hinting" at Maul being more powerful through Dooku's statements is all we have really.

And FYI I would give more credit to the guy who trained Ventress and also trained a guy Maul put to shame for an opinion on Maul vs Ventress than I would to the whiny hot headed apprentice of Obi-Wan for an opinion on Obi-Wan vs Mace..

Especially considering Dooku needed to seriously think about these things to decide who could help him defeat Sidious.

I wouldn't, since Dooku is a fallible third party character, knows almost nothing about Sideous' true powers, and is manipulative by nature. How many times has "join me so we can overthrow ___ and rule together" been used by a sith lord to entice someone into being becoming their apprentice?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I wouldn't, since Dooku is a fallible third party character, knows almost nothing about Sideous' true powers, and is manipulative by nature. How many times has "join me so we can overthrow ___ and rule together" been used by a sith lord to entice someone into being becoming their apprentice?

A lot But they rarely actually join up, so it's hard to judge on that.

-
Would Dooku have even met Maul?

Yes he has. Don't remember which book it was, but I remember Dooku musing on Maul briefly (though this is long after he died) and referring to him as an animal.

In fact, I believe it was during one of the moments that Dooku was shitting on himself after having just gotten done talking to Sideous.

That sounds like the ROTS novel, Dooku's pretty darn racist in that book.

He also shits on himself a lot.

That's one of the reasons why I kind of laugh at Dooku. Despite how high a regard some people on this forum has for him, he is totally Sideous' lackey in every sense of the word. Totally devoted, totally afraid of him, totally worrisome.

i liked the idea that he believed in Sidious's politics and really truly was arrogant enough to think that he(dooku) could handle him in the end after the war was won, thus removing the Sith from the equation.. It isn't canon, but it would much improve his character.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He also shits on himself a lot.

That's one of the reasons why I kind of laugh at Dooku. Despite how high a regard some people on this forum has for him, he is totally Sideous' lackey in every sense of the word. Totally devoted, totally afraid of him, totally worrisome.

Agreed. Dooku is very powerful but he's not really very threatening or imposing at all. He's old and Sidious' b*tch. As much as I loath TPM, but Maul is more effective as a villian than Dooku imo.

I don't think Dooku ever met Maul. I doubt very much that even if Palpatine had begun initiating Dooku prior to TPM, that he would be introducing his current apprentice to his intended(?) successor. Probably wouldn't have gone over well with Maul.


But given Obi-Wan's testimony on Maul, and Palpatone's own detailed knowledge, it's no wonder that Dooku would have formulated an opinion on him. And given his extreme speciesism in the RotS novel (where this musing takes place), his labeling of a mindless Zabrak apprentice as an "animal" is also no wonder. His enticing of this Clone Wars character to gain power is a no-brainer temptation, and his in-universe consistency would be even more incongruous calling his inferior "animal" predecessor "great" and meant it.

Blax
Totally devoted, totally afraid of him, totally worrisome.

This was once the case in the EU. Now, it's a little different: He wants to overthrow Sidious and is actively seeking to do so, but he is afraid to try it on his own.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't think Dooku ever met Maul. I doubt very much that even if Palpatine had begun initiating Dooku prior to TPM, that he would be introducing his current apprentice to his intended(?) successor. Probably wouldn't have gone over well with Maul.


So... who did Dooku think Anakin was?

Blax
So... who did Dooku think Anakin was?

Based on what Lucas has said and the LoE and ROTS novelizations, Dooku was under the impression Sidious was willing to break the Rule of Two once supremacy was achieved.

And, Maul, who had even less individualism and self-esteem then Dooku, could not be lead to think similar?

i'll tell you who was pretty smart: Old Master Sidious. he was pretty smart indeed.

Blax
And, Maul, who had even less individualism and self-esteem then Dooku, could not be lead to think similar?

?
Maul's a bit of a contradiction. Canonically, Sidious goaded Maul into battle rage during his final test before he was officially knighted into the Sith order by threatening to replace him IIRC. But after that, Maul became an obedient tool with no ambition to overthrow him.

He probably wouldn't have given a shit if Palpatine wanted to get another apprentice, so long as Maul didn't have to forfeit his own status/life.

I remember his thoughts in Shadow Hunter were of pure devotion to Sidious.

Good old smart Master Sidious, that's who Maul was thinking about.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I remember his thoughts in Shadow Hunter were of pure devotion to Sidious.

Who can blame him? He is rather dreamy.




And I watched the review of your vaunted Atheist. He supported the notion that Palpatine was, in fact, the most compelling and interesting character in the prequels. This confirms his superiority over Dooku and, by extension, Mark A. Ragnos and Darth Nihilus. Kneel before my Master and swear your eternal allegiance to His Imperial Majesty.

Kneel to Smart Old Master Sidious, even if Powerful Old Master Skywalker COULD kill him if he wanted.

tj
Kneel to Smart Old Master Sidious, even if Powerful Old Master Skywalker COULD kill him if he wanted.


no

ya uh-huh.

TAKE IT BACK TAKE IT BACK NOW

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Who can blame him? He is rather dreamy.




And I watched the review of your vaunted Atheist. He supported the notion that Palpatine was, in fact, the most compelling and interesting character in the prequels. This confirms his superiority over Dooku and, by extension, Mark A. Ragnos and Darth Nihilus. Kneel before my Master and swear your eternal allegiance to His Imperial Majesty. I've been kneeling at his Highness', TheAmazingAtheist's feet, for some time now.

okay, i'll re-direct focus. Smart Old Master Sidious is pretty smart.

LL
I've been kneeling at his Highness', TheAmazingAtheist's feet, for some time now.

When given the choice between serving a political and strategic genius who reshaped the galaxy out of a narcissistic compulsion to rule and dominatean altruistic desire to see peace and justice restored to the former Republic and submitting yourself to a heathen, you choose the heathen?

Unbelievable. It's a wonder why His Imperial Majesty bothered to give you damn Canadians free will at all.

Amazing Atheist posts shit videos with shit arguments and is a fat tard.

Totally unwatchable.

No U.

yeah, i liked RLM, but AA is annoying...

tj
yeah, i liked RLM, but AA is annoying...

Are you kidding me?

nay. granted the only thing i watched was the link posted to him awhile back by... someone... where he was defending the prequels with lame arguments and an annoying face and demeanor...

tj
nay. granted the only thing i watched was the link posted to him awhile back by... someone... where he was defending the prequels with lame arguments and an annoying face and demeanor...

Lame arguments? Annoying face? Demeanor? Nephthys hates the prequels.

hmmm? Yes, those things. What does Exodus's view of the prequels have to do with this?

tj
hmmm? Yes, those things. What does Exodus's view of the prequels have to do with this?

He's clearly the guy you're talking about.

the poster of things? That is fine, regardless, it was teh link i hated.

I'd rather read his arguments than hear him talk about them. RLM has a way higher entertainment value.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I wouldn't, since Dooku is a fallible third party character, knows almost nothing about Sideous' true powers, and is manipulative by nature.

True. But it seems to be what the CW series is hinting at through Dooku's musings. And that episode was written by none other than Lucas's own daughter.

On the other hand I dnt remember any character or narrator anywhere in the whole EU even hinting at Ventress having achieved or surpassed Maul in terms of combat or power.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Maul>Ventress.

Maul wins. Maul got defeated by ob1 as a pprentice while ventrees would have killed both anakin and ob1 at the sam time in a saber/force battle if it were not for the inferance of Dooku!so

ventress>maul
ob1>maul
anakin>maul
maul is not that good!I dont know why everyone loves him so much!

Originally posted by Q99
He's a Sith, of course he wants to defeat Sidious.

Sidious's plan puts Sidious in charge of the new Empire. While being second to that isn't bad, he wants to be the one in charge. speaking of wich!!Mual was so loyal it is said he would never confront his master unless profoked(ALOT)!!

That's why he'd never become a Sith Master. Barring someone else offing Palps.

The need to replace him was inevitable unless his ambition grew stronger.

In one of the novelizations, Maul did become overcome with rage, and tried to strike Palaptine down (obviously to no avail.) However, that was a one-time outburst that Maul would never try to repeat again.

In many way's Maul was the perfect apprentice. He was obediant, loyal, trust worthy, etc. - very much like a whipped puppy who followed Palpatine's every whim... He just wasn't the perfect Sith apprentice, because it was very unlikely that he would ever attempt to rise against his master for his own personal gains.

Originally posted by Galan007
In one of the novelizations, Maul did become overcome with rage, and tried to strike Palaptine down (obviously to no avail.) However, that was a one-time outburst that Maul would never try to repeat again.

In many way's Maul was the perfect apprentice. He was obediant, loyal, trust worthy, etc. - very much like a whipped puppy who followed Palpatine's every whim... He just wasn't the perfect Sith apprentice, because it was very unlikely that he would ever attempt to rise against his master for his own personal gains.

But wasn't that the whole point of the Rule Of Two?? So the Sith wouldn't fight each other. The apprentice would eventually become Master when his Master died and then take on a new apprentice.

I just dnt get why a Sith Lord would want an apprentice whose willing to betray them.. Just does not make sense to me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But wasn't that the whole point of the Rule Of Two?? So the Sith wouldn't fight each other. The apprentice would eventually become Master when his Master died and then take on a new apprentice.

I just dnt get why a Sith Lord would want an apprentice whose willing to betray them.. Just does not make sense to me.

Ambition drives the Sith. To deny that is to deny a lot of what makes them strong, they'd be a shadow of the Sith without.

The Rule of Two isn't for ensuring the two don't fight ever, but so that conflict occurs at the proper moment, in a way that strengthens the Sith in the long run. If the apprentice loses and dies, then they weren't ready, and if they never get strong enough to try then they should be replaced with a stronger apprentice anyway.

An apprentice strong enough to win though is properly a master and should be taking on a new student to further the teachings of the Sith. If the old Master is still alive at that point... well, there'll be trouble and you'd start having a sith order on your hands, or at the very least multiple small groups with competing plans rather than all under control of one master.

There's none of the length rivalries and sith-on-sith wars, just the building of power between generations and the moment of conflict when Master and Apprentice finally decide who will take the next apprentice.




Also, not all Sith will eventually die on their own. Immortality is a technique several Sith have sought and even claimed. Andeddu, Muur, Krayt, even Bane went after it.

Yes, it makes it so that two lesser Sith can't gang up on a stronger one and kill him, thus weakening the Sith collectively as a whole. The Rule of Two forces the Sith to continually get stronger or more cunning on an individual level for every generation. The new Sith Lord will always be more powerful or more cunning(lingas) than the last. In theory at least.

Ironically the apprentice still teams up with a second person more often than not, e.g. Dooku + Ventress/ Savage Opress, Vader + Starkiller/Luke. Only two actually followed it to its evental conclusion, Zannah and Sidious, and Sidious threw it away almost completely with his many, many Hands, faux apprentices etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ironically the apprentice still teams up with a second person more often than not, e.g. Dooku + Ventress/ Savage Opress, Vader + Starkiller/Luke. Only two actually followed it to its evental conclusion, Zannah and Sidious, and Sidious threw it away almost immediately with his many, many Hands, faux apprentices etc.

Presumably a lot of the intermediates between Bane and Palp did too.



The team-up seems like it's the refuge of the "Glass Ceiling" Sith- Apprentices who have reached their max and still not surpassed their master. They're kept around because the Master can use them for year without being overthrown until they find a better apprentice. And of course, the teamup is generally a nice signal that "hey, time to off this apprentice and maybe pick up the person they were trying to recruit."

One side effect is it does mean that the new apprentice very rarely has the time to become a fully realized sith. Dark Jedi and people with high potential, but Ventress or Opress couldn't be taught all the best sith secrets before the attempt is made, because that'd tip the boss off. So while not exactly one on one, the Dark Lord Apprentice has to go in with someone who's at most a newbie apprentice in general.

Unless they *are* clever enough to train someone for a decade under their bosses' nose, in which case it counts as a proper cleverness win, I'd say.

Yeah, that can be seen as legitimately crafty imo. The ROT was designed to stop masters from taining more than one apprentice and then have them team up on him/her, which is neither clever or a show of power. Like what happened with Traya, and something Bane himself took advantage of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, it makes it so that two lesser Sith can't gang up on a stronger one and kill him, thus weakening the Sith collectively as a whole. The Rule of Two forces the Sith to continually get stronger or more cunning on an individual level for every generation. The new Sith Lord will always be more powerful or more cunning(lingas) than the last. In theory at least.

Ironically the apprentice still teams up with a second person more often than not, e.g. Dooku + Ventress/ Savage Opress, Vader + Starkiller/Luke. Only two actually followed it to its evental conclusion, Zannah and Sidious, and Sidious threw it away almost completely with his many, many Hands, faux apprentices etc.

Although Sidious killing his Master in his sleep hardly proved him to be more powerful.. Bit of a cheap shot

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Although Sidious killing his Master in his sleep hardly proved him to be more powerful.. Bit of a cheap shot

To be fair, he had grown weak and foolish enough that he felt sleeping around Darth Sidious was a good idea.

Yeah, that falls under the heading of cunning(lingas).