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Oct gets a gas mask.

Who wins?

This may have been done before but adamantium Ock wins easily
Non adamantium Ock loses badly

OR

Originally posted by YoungGunna
This may have been done before but adamantium Ock wins easily
Non adamantium Ock loses badly

How?

Wolverine's never been able to damage his carbonadium armor.

Omega Red

Originally posted by cdtm
How?

Wolverine's never been able to damage his carbonadium armor.
adamantium Dr. Octopus would play volleyball with Omega Red just as he did to Hulk

Originally posted by cdtm
How?

Wolverine's never been able to damage his carbonadium armor.

1. It was made out of carbonadium in the cartoon only.

2. He has stabbed through it.


There was one instance in which gas masks didn't do shit against the death factor.

Originally posted by cdtm
Oct gets a gas mask. And the mask is supposed to do what?

OR killed people in Hazmat suits.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
And the mask is supposed to do what?

OR killed people in Hazmat suits.

I'm glad to see you bow before the superiority of Wolverine and his villains

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9366/do1d.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2444/wolverineownsred.jpg

Wolverine >>> Spider-Man. Say it. You know you want to.

Originally posted by cdtm
How?

Wolverine's never been able to damage his carbonadium armor.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1571142-hulkoctakeone1_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1571133-hulkoctakeone3_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1571127-hulkoctakeone2_super.jpg

Adamantum Ock owns

1. It's not adamantium Ock

2. The death spores would work before he would do that.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
1. It's not adamantium Ock

2. The death spores would work before he would do that.
Whats not adamantium Ock?

The Doc Ock in this thread.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3693/redsresurrectionfg0.th.png
props to jrodslam

That's the scan I'm reffering to.

Nm Doc Ock rips him apart.

Originally posted by Parmaniac


2. The death spores would work before he would do that. ock has a mask dood

Originally posted by Starscream M
ock has a mask dood

You never fail to fail, Stars

Originally posted by Parmaniac
That's the scan I'm reffering to.
If that was regular Ock imagine what imagine what adamantium Ock would do to him you killed yourself

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You never fail to fail, Stars Originally posted by cdtm
Oct gets a gas mask.

Originally posted by Starscream M
ock has a mask dood http://i53.tinypic.com/acqyv8.jpg

Not even the blue lanterns see hope in your development.

Originally posted by Starscream M


Failed again! Combo started!!!

Little word of advice... read other posts.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
1. It's not adamantium Ock

2. The death spores would work before he would do that.
Doc Ock wouldn't let Red get close enough to do anything to him with his tentacles 24 feet reach and his death spores sre really ineffective in this match anyways as Doc Ocks tentacles can generate 50 mile per hour winds if spun like a giant fan
Doc Ock rips him apart

With Admantium Dr. Ock wins
Without Omega Red wins

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Doc Ock wouldn't let Red get close enough to do anything to him with his tentacles 24 feet reach and his death spores sre really ineffective in this match anyways as Doc Ocks tentacles can generate 50 mile per hour winds if spun like a giant fan
Doc Ock rips him apart

Wow. You're the new Starscream or what? God save us all...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3937/spfacepalm.jpg

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
With Admantium Dr. Ock wins
Without Omega Red wins
I don't think Red wins against regular Ock anymore he very ineffective against him

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wow. You're the new Starscream or what? God save us all...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3937/spfacepalm.jpg
Prove that Omega Red wins or Go home

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wow. You're the new Starscream or what? God save us all...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3937/spfacepalm.jpg
I'm waiting

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Prove that Omega Red wins or Go home the death spores are inconsistently described and sometimes they are likened to radiation, rgardless, winds arent doing anything to them and dock ock wouldnt generate them fast enough if the were.

OR is stronger, faster and more durable, for all intents and purposes his two tentacles are as durable as Dock ock's adamantium ones, he is clearly more competent with them and can drain life force through them on top of it all.

He wins this.

Please Stiltman do come back you don't give me a facepalm and run like a lil pussy

How is OR more competent with his tentacles than Doc Ock?

Originally posted by Mindset
How is OR more competent with his tentacles than Doc Ock?
I want to know also

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Prove that Omega Red wins or Go home

Already proved. The scan is on the previous page.

AOE attack = dead Ock. Gas mask? Useless.

Originally posted by Mindset
How is OR more competent with his tentacles than Doc Ock? takes on better fighters on average and has less embarassing defeats of pure retardation

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Please Stiltman do come back you don't give me a facepalm and run like a lil pussy

Forgive me I don't find responding to your "arguments" entertaining anymore?

Originally posted by 753
takes on better fighters on average and has less embarassing defeats of pure retardation
I've just shown Ock owning hulk and spiderman show me something more impressive than that from OR

Originally posted by 753
the death spores are inconsistently described and sometimes they are likened to radiation, rgardless, winds arent doing anything to them and dock ock wouldnt generate them fast enough if the were.

OR is stronger, faster and more durable, for all intents and purposes his two tentacles are as durable as Dock ock's adamantium ones, he is clearly more competent with them and can drain life force through them on top of it all.

He wins this.
Hes not stronger or faster than Ock
Doc Ocks range and wind projection from what I've seen would give would give him the clear advantage

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Forgive me I don't find responding to your "arguments" entertaining anymore?
because you always lose them

Originally posted by 753
takes on better fighters on average and has less embarassing defeats of pure retardation But as you mentioned: Originally posted by 753
the death spores

OR is stronger, faster and more durable, for all intents and purposes his two tentacles are as durable as Dock ock's adamantium ones

So...I'm not seeing how he is more competent with just his tentacles.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Hes not stronger or faster than Ock
Doc Ocks range and wind projection from what I've seen wind projection would give would give him the advantage Care to show that wind projection scan?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Care to show that wind projection scan?
I read it on his bio but you could look for it yourself though

That's the point I can't remember him doing anything like that.

Not to mention that using feats from bios isn't a wise move in the first place.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Hes not stronger or faster than Ock, Otto can lift vehicles, destroy buildings, move faster while traveling on all four arms, climb walls, deflect bullets
Doc Ocks range and wind projection from what I've seen would give would give him the clear advantage

Originally posted by YoungGunna
I've just shown Ock owning hulk and spiderman show me something more impressive than that from OR

He got humiliated by Hulk later, you realize that?

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Hes not stronger or faster than Ock
Doc Ocks range and wind projection from what I've seen wind projection would give would give him the advantage

We could argue about sheer tentacles' speed, seeing as Ock had an upgrade, but Rossovich' reflexes are superior. All of his attributes are superhuman, after all. That is above Ock's.

How many times did he use that wind trick? And please, it ain't gonna fend off death spores. Range is about the same...

Originally posted by YoungGunna
because you always lose them

lulz

Sure, master debator.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
I read it on his bio but you could look for it yourself though

Typical Starscream.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
That's the point I can't remember him doing anything like that.

Not to mention that using feats from bios isn't a wise move in the first place.
Check out his Wiki page if you don't believe me otherwise don't saw what he can and can't do

Originally posted by Mindset
But as you mentioned:

So...I'm not seeing how he is more competent with just his tentacles. fairly good point

Fairly?

Meet me somewhere.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Hes not stronger or faster than Ock
Doc Ocks range and wind projection from what I've seen would give would give him the clear advantage yes he is, dock ock remains a baseline human despite his gear. did you mean the strengh of the tentacles themselves?

Originally posted by YoungGunna


Iron Man said Red had Thing-lv strength. He restrained Colossus with his tendrils. Deflected bullets, too.

Read up on the character first if you want to argue against him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He got humiliated by Hulk later, you realize that?



We could argue about sheer tentacles' speed, seeing as Ock had an upgrade, but Rossovich' reflexes are superior. All of his attributes are superhuman, after all. That is above Ock's.

How many times did he use that wind trick? And please, it ain't gonna fend off death spores. Range is about the same...



lulz

Sure, master debator.



Typical Starscream.
Whats Reds range and all I saw on that scan was Hulk getting pawned by Ock which he could easily do to a much weaker Red and whats stopping him from ripping him apart
What does his attributes matter if he can catch Sidey he can catch Red

Originally posted by 753
yes he is, dock ock remains a baseline human despite his gear. did you mean the strengh of the tentacles themselves?
Yea I meant his tentacles

Originally posted by Mindset
Fairly?

Meet me somewhere. anytime, anyplace, no homo (not too much anyway)

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Iron Man said Red had Thing-lv strength. He restrained Colossus with his tendrils. Deflected bullets, too.

Read up on the character first if you want to argue against him.
Hulk is above all of them so yeah

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Hulk is above all of them so yeah

Maybe some versions are, but I think Professor Hulk and Colossus would be a good match... And it's the Professor that Doc Oct pwned.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Whats Reds range and all I saw on that scan was Hulk getting pawned by Ock which he could easily do to a much weaker Red and whats stopping him from ripping him apart
What does his attributes matter if he can catch Sidey he can catch Red

We're not really talking about Ock with adamantium harness here, pay attention. Spores would put him down anyway.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Hulk is above all of them so yeah

Again:

no adamantium harness

Prof Hulk shitstomped Octavius in another book.

Doc Ock is also far smarter he figures a way to win

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
We're not really talking about Ock with adamantium harness here, pay attention. Spores would put him down anyway.



Again:

no adamantium harness

Prof Hulk shitstomped Octavius in another book.
The OP never implied that theres no adamantium harness

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
We're not really talking about Ock with adamantium harness here, pay attention. Spores would put him down anyway.



Again:

no adamantium harness

Prof Hulk shitstomped Octavius in another book.
His other encounter with Prof Hulk,Hulk probably had prep

http://thebignut.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/troll.jpg

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Doc Ock is also far smarter he figures a way to win

No prep time. And in the actual fight he'll be too busy loosing consciousness.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
The OP never implied that theres no adamantium harness

Not my fault you're not aware of the rules...

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3056/ssfacepalm.jpg

Originally posted by YoungGunna
His other encounter with Prof Hulk,Hulk probably had prep

laughcry

Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://thebignut.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/troll.jpg

Troll indeed. We fed him a bit too much methinks

Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://thebignut.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/troll.jpg
I'ma a troll cause I don't agree with you?
I'M troll cause I'm putting up valid points?
Well if thats the case than it is what it is

I got to go and watch the game but I will be back to hop back on that ass.
Lighten Up

OR for the kill.

Originally posted by YoungGunna
The OP never implied that theres no adamantium harness it's not standard gear

Originally posted by cdtm
Oct gets a gas mask.

Who wins?

This is a surprisingly natural match-up that I'm surprised no one thought of before this thread. Been thinking of this one since the first X-Men arcade games came out ...

Purpose of the gas mask is to filter Arkady's Death Spores.
If they don't do the job, Ock's tentacles do indeed have the ability to blow away airborne pollutants.

If I recall right, the Amazing Spider-Man issue where Ock stole what was called the Ultimate Nullifier proved he is able to create winds fast enough to bowl a man over; certainly enough to keep spores at bay.
Think this was around the mid #50s ...

If not, just say the battle is taking place outdoors on a boat at sea during a storm or something with the 2 villains making a getaway. That satisfies the Original Posters intentions, too.
So would simply having Arkady (Omega Red) refrain from using his Death Spores and just fighting Ock conventionally.

Last I've seen of Ock or read about him, he's got Carbanium or Carbanadium tentacles, too. Moreover he's got 8 now instead of 4 of them. If he has the same type of control over these as his previous set, and these are indeed Carbanadium, they are durable enough to withstand Arkady's own. Heck, there's a chance they would nullify Arkady's spores if he DID decide to use them; Carbanadium is precisely the metal Omega Red was looking for to keep his "death factor" in CHECK in nearly all previous appearances.

At any rate, with tentacles enough to neutralize Omega Red's own (that would only take 2), and 2 more to breeze away death spores, and then still the 4 remaining to fight Arkady physically, this match should go to Ock, in perhaps 7 of 10 cases.
Roughly even split if Ock's only got the 4 again but the death spores are kept at bay.

Spiderman broke Octavius' tentacles. I believe only his armor was made out of carbonadium.

The tentacles were carbonadium. You believe wrong. Spider-man is that awesome.

Originally posted by SamZED
The tentacles were carbonadium. You believe wrong. Spider-man is that awesome.

He's not awesome. He's gay:

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
wow
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/shogunofharlem1/new/AvengingSpiderManAnnual_1_TheGroup_025.jpg
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/shogunofharlem1/new/AvengingSpiderManAnnual_1_TheGroup_026.jpg


And you're finished.

http://i46.tinypic.com/fu96w6.jpg

He's not gay. Wolverine's son is gay!
That said, you can be gay and still be super awesome, ask Neil Patrick Harris.

Ps: Lol that MK pic is win.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Heck, there's a chance they would nullify Arkady's spores if he DID decide to use them; Carbanadium is precisely the metal Omega Red was looking for to keep his "death factor" in CHECK in nearly all previous appearances.


Carbonadium is not what Arkady uses to keep his Death Factor in check. The implants are radioactive and constantly poisoning him, on top of that his Death Factor is as well. If he got the Carbonadium Synthesizer, it would cleanse the metal in his system and cure him of both his radiation poisoning and allow him to control his spores.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://thebignut.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/troll.jpg

Originally posted by KingD19
Carbonadium is not what Arkady uses to keep his Death Factor in check. The implants are radioactive and constantly poisoning him, on top of that his Death Factor is as well. If he got the Carbonadium Synthesizer, it would cleanse the metal in his system and cure him of both his radiation poisoning and allow him to control his spores.


Sir, with all due respect, you are reading something wrong.

Carbonadium is what the Synthesizer MAKES.
That's why it's called a synthesizer.
That metal is WHAT it busies itself with making.


Think of it this way:

Even as, say, iron is actually present in your blood, and you need continual ingestion of trace amounts of it to keep healthy, so too Arkady needs certain amounts of Carbonadium to keep healthy.
That metal is what neutralizes his death factor.


Here, perhaps this image taken from Ankur's album in the Omega Red respect thread on these forums will do a better job than I have:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Sir, with all due respect, you are reading something wrong.

Carbonadium is what the Synthesizer MAKES.
That's why it's called a synthesizer.
That metal is WHAT it busies itself with making.


Think of it this way:

Even as, say, iron is actually present in your blood, and you need continual ingestion of trace amounts of it to keep healthy, so too Arkady needs certain amounts of Carbonadium to keep healthy.
That metal is what neutralizes his death factor.


Here, perhaps this image taken from Ankur's album in the Omega Red respect thread on these forums will do a better job than I have:

Handbooks are wrong quite often. Carbonadium DOES NOT neutralize his death factor... in fact, it's a conduit for it, allowing him to life-drain his victims via contact.

Carbonadium synthesizer was needed to deal with the radiation Red's implants were giving off. And he got it before his death.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Handbooks are wrong quite often. Carbonadium DOES NOT neutralize his death factor... in fact, it's a conduit for it, allowing him to life-drain his victims via contact.

Carbonadium synthesizer was needed to deal with the radiation Red's implants were giving off. And he got it before his death.



It'd be awesome if somebody presented the relevant pages from X-Men #5 (1991/1992) here.

Step up somebody -- we can't do better than Wikipedia until that time:


----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only a device known as the Carbonadium Synthesizer can stabilize his condition, as carbonadium is the only metal that can neutralize the "death factor," thereby stabilizing it within his body ..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ock's tentacles do indeed have the ability to blow away airborne pollutants.

If I recall right, the Amazing Spider-Man issue where Ock stole what was called the Ultimate Nullifier proved he is able to create winds fast enough to bowl a man over; certainly enough to keep spores at bay.
Think this was around the mid #50s ...

Classic Ock versus gas.

Image 2 of 2.

classic Doctor Octopus versus gas.

Image 3 of 3.

Ock Solidly, Ock is much faster than OR

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He's not awesome. He's gay:



And you're finished.

http://i46.tinypic.com/fu96w6.jpg

what the shit

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It'd be awesome if somebody presented the relevant pages from X-Men #5 (1991/1992) here.

Step up somebody -- we can't do better than Wikipedia until that time:


----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only a device known as the Carbonadium Synthesizer can stabilize his condition, as carbonadium is the only metal that can neutralize the "death factor," thereby stabilizing it within his body ..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------


We can do better, all that is needed is reading Wolverine: Origins, for example.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Classic Ock versus gas.

Image 2 of 2.

That's nice and all (glad you finally found it, btw), but Ock's pheromones aren't visible, so unless Octavius knows about it, there is nothing he can do.

Basic knowledge rule can be pretty confusing sometimes.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Ock Solidly, Ock is much faster than OR

Rossovich reacted to and deflected bullets.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
all that is needed is reading Wolverine: Origins




That's a big pre-requisite for someone that doesn't have the book, you know ...



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
We can do better ...


Well, the other problem is that the comics contradict one another.

Maybe you do have some comic that says carbonadium is bad for Red, and perhaps it is even Wolverine: Origins that says that.

If so, however, X-Men #5 disagrees with that completely.

Half the reason for all the action of the book, whether in then-present day or in flashback, is to capture that synthesizer to make carbonadium, allowing Red to be a viably functional super soldier. Which he won't be if he doesn't get that metal in his system thanks TO that synthesizer ... 'cause he'll be dead.
(Never fully thought about what this implied on previous readings -- Wolverine ran with some teams that REALLY played for keeps back in the day ... )


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ock's pheromones aren't visible, so unless Octavius knows about it, there is nothing he can do.

Basic knowledge rule can be pretty confusing sometimes.



Only the basic knowledge rules, huh?
Doctor Octopus not seeing the pheremones of Doctor Octopus is the problem here?




Alright.

Back to serious subject treatment mode:


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
pheromones aren't visible, so unless Octavius knows about it, there is nothing he can do.

Basic knowledge rules ...



This isn't a basic match-up.

It's a scenario match-up.

The original poster told us one key piece of information that made it so, obviously going on the supposition it would block Red's "death factor" as any sort of match-deciding consideration:


Originally posted by cdtm
Oct gets a gas mask.

Who wins?


Given THAT information, IF we are going to honor the spirit of the original poster's thread, we need to assume that Ock at the VERY least has knowledge that Red has this special feature and has indeed taken a precaution against it.

For why give Ock a gas mask if it is NOT to combat that?
Style points?

That wouldn't make any sense.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Rossovich reacted to and deflected bullets.


Any speed advantage Arkady might have at this low-level of that power will be negated by the sheer number of Ock's arms.

Carbonadium is radioactive, it was used to reduce Daken's and Wolverine's HF, too.

I'm only human, blue. It's funny that I typed "Ock's pheromones", though.

I noticed that - at least in this thread - you're using evidence from classic comics. Then you should know that even hazmat suits (that has gas masks included) didn't protect their users from Red's Death Factor. And even if that fails, Red could still just remove it from Octavius.

I recently posted scans of classic Spidey tearing off Ock's tentacles. All four of them. Stark has stated that OR possesses a Thing-level strength, so it shouldn't be hard for him to replicate that feat.

OR would win. Unless Doc is fully covered ( i don't think his latest incarnation covered his face he's gonna lose eventually. That being said, without the DF this might be a bit of a tossup as the latest (dying) competent version of Doc shown in Ends of the Earth is a beast with 8 tentacles.

Hazmat suits cover all the body and they still didn't help, Sixth

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I'm only human, Blue. It's funny that I typed "Ock's pheromones", though.



Only half of me is serious when I post something like that.
The serious point, however, is that most people tend to read very fast, post just as fast, and not stop and consider they might be mistaken.

Obviously I don't think you are confused to the point of thinking Ock is a physical danger to himself, but I do think you've failed even now to think on WHY Red needs C-synth to begin with.

It might BE that Wolverine:Origins (W.O.), or something else you read, contradicts what I read in X-Men #5.
But if W.O. does say what you think, it IS a direct contradiction to what I remember X-Men #5 says.


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I noticed that - at least in this thread - you're using evidence from classic comics.

Most of what I know of Omega Red comes from his appearances in the 1990s. And Doctor Octopus, as far as I know, has only received upgrades since that time, more arms, more sophisticated control of them, body armor, etcetera.
Exception of course being, as pointed out earlier, that the adamantium set I thought was Ock's own was appropriated, not standard for him.
At any rate, if Ock's classic adamantium-less yesteryear form can handle a threat, I have little reason to think more modern and improved versions would fail the task.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
you should know that even hazmat suits (that has gas masks included) didn't protect their users from Red's Death Factor.

That has the ring of PIS and makes little, if any sense; no disrespect intended to you; you didn't write that scene.


Having said that, too, I would point out that Omega Red was brought back by Hand ninja clan ritual, not entirely on his own.
Which may or may not be significant considering I have ALSO seen the "Great Beast" that the Hand serves claim the lives of nearby people when the requirements of a particular ritual were not properly fulfilled.

Seemed nearly identical to what happened to Red's unintended victims.

Did that happen here? I don't know. The ritual I'm remembering where this happened, was, oddly enough, a resurrection performed on Doctor Octopus, who'd been killed by the Spider-Man villain Kaine.


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
if that fails, Red could ... just remove from Octavius.


This is a much better and more realistic objection.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Carbonadium is radioactive, it was used to reduce Daken's and Wolverine's HF, too.


Perhaps the carbonadium problem is a matter of scale?

For the mere fact of something being radioactive doesn't change the fact of it being beneficial or even required for proper health.

The human body itself, for instance, contains radioactive elements
(see link).

Key is that these are present in SMALL amounts in the body.

Perhaps the writer of X-Men #5 had that theory in mind and larger amounts of carbonadium are, indeed, poisonous to Red and others?

There's an ocean of difference between a substance doled out in terms of milligrams or even micrograms, and one supplied in terms of ounces and poundage.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/biology/human-periodic-elements.htm

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I recently posted scans of classic Spidey tearing off Ock's tentacles. All four of them. Stark has stated that OR possesses a Thing-level strength, so it shouldn't be hard for him to replicate that feat.


Except for one thing. Omega Red doesn't have Spider-man speed.

Ock's not going to be standing there like a statue.

Moreover, no one's going to tell me that a man put to heel by the physical offensive of Psylocke (again that X-Men #5 story arc),
is going to lightly endure the wall-smashing punches of Ock.

If Ock's not fighting BACK in your scenario, sure, Omega Red has a good chance to rip Ock's tentacles apart.

Without that, no, I don't see that happening.


-------------------------------------------------


Understand, I think Ock without protection against Death Factor loses horribly, fatally, and absolutely.

And any battle where Omega Red does NOT use Death Factor, or where environment negates it, or where Ock has some protection and precaution against it, has ample winning chances for Red as well.

Arkady's strong and vicious when he wants to be, a genuine threat to people.



Under the conditions of this particular thread, however, he's NOT taking the majority against Ock.

OR

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
OR would win. Unless Doc is fully covered ( i don't think his latest incarnation covered his face he's gonna lose eventually. That being said, without the DF this might be a bit of a tossup as the latest (dying) competent version of Doc shown in Ends of the Earth is a beast with 8 tentacles.


That dying competent version of Ock might be even more of threat.


Stilt, you'll either catch this or you won't -- are you familiar with, say, Doctor Doom's mind transfer ability ...?

Ock probably learned the Ovoid Mind Transfer from Doom so he could troll Parker.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ock probably learned the Ovoid Mind Transfer from Doom so he could troll Parker. I agree to defeat someone like Parker it needs no less than someone of Doom's caliber.

This thread is useful for discussions on carbonadium and several other various obscure topics.

Can I assume most people have read Spider-Man #698 and Spider-Man #700 by now?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Care to show that wind projection scan?



Windmill Tentacled Octavius.

(Doctor Octopus steals the "nullifier" device at a symposium.)


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14113303

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14113304

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14113306


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Amazing Spider-Man #53, Volume 1
Writer: Stan Lee
Penciller: John Romita, Sr.
Date: October 1967
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_53

Thanks

I can't remember off the top of my head but doesn't Omega Red's carbonadium implants help arrest his death factor powers? Or is it the reverse?

Just out of curiosity why should the carbonadium **** Ock up? His body is not even in connection with this shit.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Just out of curiosity why should the carbonadium **** Ock up? His body is not even in connection with this shit.

Because it's highly radio active?

Originally posted by ODG
I can't remember off the top of my head but doesn't Omega Red's carbonadium implants help arrest his death factor powers? Or is it the reverse?

Originally the former, it's unclear what effect it was having before he bought the farm.

The whole thing never really made much sense. The C-Synth was needed to make Carbonadium... but why did Omega Red need it? He apparently needed Carbonadium to "stabilize his death factor"... but is body was full of Carbonadium already and he had Carbonadium armor. How is that not mission accomplished?

People are coming up with some extreme responses here.

The "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle, not at the polar ends.


Alright, first things first:

1. People think carbonadium will do a number on Doc because it is radioactive. How radioactive is open to interpretation. Many are going with "extremely" radioactive because it is able to dampen mutant healing factors. Why they're concluding that, I don't know.
Adamantium is known to dampen mutant healing factors, too, yet I've never seen adamantium called "radioactive" anywhere.

2. Arkady's implants apparently have some role in poisoning his mind and body because they are implants gone wrong. Nobody wants to make this distinction for some reason.

3. Carbonadium DOES, indeed neutralize Omega Red's death factor. Even what I've seen concerning Wolverine Origins says as much, and X-Men #5-7 makes it clear as day. Omega Red's death factor is a double edged sword. Given time, it will kill him. He can apparently use it like a vampire to steal the life of others and sustain himself, but he doesn't really like to do that. His team in X-Men #5 goes after Wolverine because Wolverine's healing factor acts as a life-replenisher for Wolverine; they're hoping the effect can be duplicated in Omega Red.
For some reason, plot needs, I suppose, Wolvie's X-Factor can't be duplicated by anything they try, not even with samples of Wolverine's blood and tissue. So their only resolve is to get a device called the C-Synthesizer, a device that makes pure carbonadium metal. THAT can stabilize Red. Problem is that, again, Wolverine seems to be the key. Only HE knows where that device is located.

Was just wondering because has anybody discussed the possibility that Doc Ock's carbonadium armor would inhibit the death factor trump card here?

Originally posted by ODG
Was just wondering because has anybody discussed the possibility that Doc Ock's carbonadium armor would inhibit the death factor trump card here?


I did, more or less, a page or 2 ago. Unfortunately, I do not have X-Men #5-7 (1992) and therefore can't provide scans proving that Carbonadium, does, indeed, neutralize Red's Death Factor.

I'd be eternally grateful if you could supply a few scans of the dialogue from any of those books where such is mentioned.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because it's highly radio active? Care to show me some scans where OR just stands in a room ****ing people's health up without using deathspores? Cause most of the time that's not happening at all.

Adamantium dampens healing factors by being directly implanted into a mutants body. It's simply metal poisoning.

Carbonadium is actively radioactive, probably to go along with all the nuke stuff in Russia(Chernobyl, etc...) And it has stated as such. The C-Synth could make more Carbonadium and clean it's impurities, leaving it able to neutralize his death factor and need to feed without poisoning him as well.

And no, Red's armor isn't Carbonadium. It's an unidentified metal, and it's called Retro-Russian Armor, unless it states somewhere on panel that it is.

Also, Doc Ock's armor won't stop the spores.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Originally the former, it's unclear what effect it was having before he bought the farm.

The whole thing never really made much sense. The C-Synth was needed to make Carbonadium... but why did Omega Red need it? He apparently needed Carbonadium to "stabilize his death factor"... but is body was full of Carbonadium already and he had Carbonadium armor. How is that not mission accomplished?



The story seems to have undergone the tyranny of the retcon, as Stiltman implies, but, really, this doesn't provide real comprehensive difficulty to me. There's the easy parallel to make of trace or dietary minerals. Take a look at the following from Wikipedia:



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dietary minerals (also known as mineral nutrients) are the chemical elements required by living organisms, other than the four elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen present in common organic molecules.

Minerals in order of abundance in the human body include the seven major minerals calcium, phosphorus, potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, and magnesium. Important "trace" or minor minerals, necessary for mammalian life, include iron, cobalt, copper, zinc, molybdenum, iodine, and selenium ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_mineral



You're probably thinking the above is the most uninteresting, irrelevant entry of all time.
But stop and consider just a few of the compounds on that list and anything whatsoever that you might have learned about them in chemistry class.

Do you notice that nearly every last one of these things, in even remotely large amounts, is absolutely poisonous, or, in the case of cobalt, radioactive and deadly?

The human body needs every last one of these to stay alive, yet, in large amounts, they kill.

Circulating throughout the bloodstream in proper amounts?
They bring health.

Inside the body or consumed in large amounts?
They bring death.

So seems to be the case with Omega Red and carbonadium.

He needs the carefully regulated amount of pure carbonadium metal that the C-Synthesizer creates to stabilize him.
With it, he can live a relatively normal life.

Without it, he dies a miserable death, even if he takes other people with him. It really doesn't provide much difficulty, IF I am remembering my old X-Men readings properly.

God dammit I posted in the wrong thread, I thought it was the Dr. Ock vs. Wolverine thread...

Your post above works admirably here, too, though.

Thanks for stopping by.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Care to show me some scans where OR just stands in a room ****ing people's health up without using deathspores? Cause most of the time that's not happening at all.

... it might also be worth pointing out, though, while I've got the opportunity, that the Original Poster (OP) of this thread obviously intended Octopus to have a gas mask to neutralize the threat of Omega Red's death factor.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
People are coming up with some extreme responses here.

The "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle, not at the polar ends.


Alright, first things first:

1. People think carbonadium will do a number on Doc because it is radioactive. How radioactive is open to interpretation. Many are going with "extremely" radioactive because it is able to dampen mutant healing factors. Why they're concluding that, I don't know.
Adamantium is known to dampen mutant healing factors, too, yet I've never seen adamantium called "radioactive" anywhere.

2. Arkady's implants apparently have some role in poisoning his mind and body because they are implants gone wrong. Nobody wants to make this distinction for some reason.

3. Carbonadium DOES, indeed neutralize Omega Red's death factor. Even what I've seen concerning Wolverine Origins says as much, and X-Men #5-7 makes it clear as day. Omega Red's death factor is a double edged sword. Given time, it will kill him. He can apparently use it like a vampire to steal the life of others and sustain himself, but he doesn't really like to do that. His team in X-Men #5 goes after Wolverine because Wolverine's healing factor acts as a life-replenisher for Wolverine; they're hoping the effect can be duplicated in Omega Red.
For some reason, plot needs, I suppose, Wolvie's X-Factor can't be duplicated by anything they try, not even with samples of Wolverine's blood and tissue. So their only resolve is to get a device called the C-Synthesizer, a device that makes pure carbonadium metal. THAT can stabilize Red. Problem is that, again, Wolverine seems to be the key. Only HE knows where that device is located.

face

You've never seen Adamantium called radioactive anywhere because it's never been stated to be radioactive on panel, which Carbonadium has, half a dozen or so times. Cyber was dying of radiation poisoning because he had a Carbonadium pace maker grafted to his Adamantium exoskeleton... and his entire body except for his face is completely shielded from radiation exposure.

Adamantium doesn't dampen healing factors, it regulates Wolverine's unstable mutation. According to Professor X Wolverine is constantly evolving and his powers increase indefinitely without any checks or balances, Adamntium slows down this biological process. That's why Wolverine's healing factor didn't slow down after he regained his Adamantium Skeleton, the exponential increase was just tappered off.

Carbonadium doesn't negate Red's death factor. Case in point: Arkady had Carbonadium coils implanted into each of his arms, and wore Carbonadium armor... and his death factor was not negated. He was told by the Red Room that he needed to stabilize his powers so he wouldn't have to constantly drain people, but seemingly that was empty rhetoric in order to get him to chase down the C-Synth.

Originally posted by KingD19
Adamantium dampens healing factors by being directly implanted into a mutants body. It's simply metal poisoning.

Carbonadium is actively radioactive, probably to go along with all the nuke stuff in Russia(Chernobyl, etc...) And it has stated as such. The C-Synth could make more Carbonadium and clean it's impurities, leaving it able to neutralize his death factor and need to feed without poisoning him as well.

And no, Red's armor isn't Carbonadium. It's an unidentified metal, and it's called Retro-Russian Armor, unless it states somewhere on panel that it is.

Also, Doc Ock's armor won't stop the spores. Guess Doc Ock's carbonadium armor was cleaned of its radioactive impurities then. Seems then that it's the type of carbonadium that would better inhibit his death spore effect. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Carbonadium doesn't negate Red's death factor. Case in point: Arkady had Carbonadium coils implanted into each of his arms, and wore Carbonadium armor... and his death factor was not negated. He was told by the Red Room that he needed to stabilize his powers so he wouldn't have to constantly drain people, but seemingly that was empty rhetoric in order to get him to chase down the C-Synth. It's not completely negated but I thought it stopped the death spores from eating him alive?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Care to show me some scans where OR just stands in a room ****ing people's health up without using deathspores? Cause most of the time that's not happening at all.

He kills people with other means before they can die a slow painful death from radiation exposure. In your mind you feel like this negates the documented radioactivity of the metal?

Can't have been. There was only one C-Synth in existence, and Logan was the only one who knew where it was. So Ock having the armor simply shouldn't have happened.

And Red's armor is never stated, but it could be Secondary Adamantium due to the punishment it's taken. But I doubt the armor itself is carbonadium.

Arkady's spores have to be released from time to time or they damage him from the inside out, but he can control them. Like consciously direct where they go and who they effect. He's done it on panel at least once. So people won't always get death spored around him, it's only when he chooses. Like when he fought Wolverine fo r18 hours.

Originally posted by ODG
Guess Doc Ock's carbonadium armor was cleaned of its radioactive impurities then. Seems then that it's the type of carbonadium that would better inhibit his death spore effect. It's not completely negated but I thought it stopped the death spores from eating him alive?

Carbonadium cleaned of it's radioactive impurities, is Adamantium.

If Arkady doesn't use his death factor, the spores build up in his body and slowly kill him. Carbonadium is supposed to negate this process, so he can live without constantly killing people and draining their life force.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Adamantium doesn't dampen healing factors, it regulates Wolverine's unstable mutation. According to Professor X Wolverine is constantly evolving and his powers increase indefinitely without any checks or balances, Adamantium slows down this biological process. That's why Wolverine's healing factor didn't slow down after he regained his healing factor, the exponential increase was just tappered off.


Not sure what you think you're saying here that's significantly different from what I wrote. Wolverine's healing is "special", in the oversimplified sense, because it is much, much speedier than that of other people.

Slow it down and he becomes more and more like other people.
That's dampening.

Proof that Adamantium does this is that Wolverine's healing rate accelerated through the figurative roof after Magneto removed the adamantium from his bones way back in their 1993 showdown.
(Think it was X-Men #25, but I'll have to check.)

Point is, though, a substance doesn't have to be particularly harmful and radioactive on its own to do the same job as a substance that IS radioactive and harmful.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Carbonadium cleaned of it's radioactive impurities, is Adamantium.



No it isn't, it's a lot more malleable than Adamantium, which is why Arkady has coils instead of claws, as Carbonadium can still be flexible once fully hardened instead of completely rigid like Adamantium.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not sure what you think you're saying here that's significantly different from what I wrote. Wolverine's healing is "special", in the oversimplified sense, because it is much, much speedier than that of other people.

Slow it down and he becomes more and more like other people.
That's dampening.

Proof that Adamantium does this is that Wolverine's healing rate accelerated through the figurative roof after Magneto removed the adamantium from his bones way back in their 1993 showdown.
(Think it was X-Men #25, but I'll have to check.)

Point is, though, a substance doesn't have to be particularly harmful and radioactive on its own to do the same job as a substance that IS radioactive and harmful.

Again: Adamantium doesn't slow down Wolverine's healing factor. It stabilizes his mutation. Those are two different things. Adamantium Wolverine doesn't heal slower now then he did when he was Bone-Claw, but if he became Bone-Claw again his mutation would once again be unstable and start increasing exponentially. One thing has nothing to do with the radioactivity of Carbonadium.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Just out of curiosity why should the carbonadium **** Ock up? His body is not even in connection with this shit. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because it's highly radio active? Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He kills people with other means before they can die a slow painful death from radiation exposure. In your mind you feel like this negates the documented radioactivity of the metal? Nice to see you think Ock lasts days/weeks/months in this forum battle.

My reply was actually meant for the Wolverine vs. Octopus thread that the radiation should obviously ****ed him up in the short period of time because it was so damn radioactive.

But it's nice to see that first you actually tried to argue that the radiation ****s him up in the time span of a forum fight and suddenly jump to a slow painful death excuse because that actually never really happened, yet somehow its still relevant to the fight?

Also:
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Carbonadium cleaned of it's radioactive impurities, is Adamantium. Glad we agree that Spider-Man can break Adamantium

Originally posted by KingD19
Arkady's spores have to be released from time to time or they damage him from the inside out, but he can control them. Like consciously direct where they go and who they effect. He's done it on panel at least once. So people won't always get death spored around him, it's only when he chooses. Like when he fought Wolverine fo r18 hours.

I agree that Arkady has some control over his spores and whether to release them or not. In fact, that was the point in that 1992 arc of Rogue throwing Arkady over to Matsuo and his allies, and she SAID as much (paraphrased) "I want you near your fan club so you don't go shootin' and sprayin' your death factor all over the place"...

I think you're wrong about Wolverine, though.

Pretty sure Arkady DID use his death factor on Wolverine.
That's precisely why someone remarked about the match:

"Any other would have died, long, long ago ..."


Think I might be able to provide THAT scan in due time.

THAT sort of thing people would race to post in a Wolverine respect thread.
The ones I'm looking for about C-synth?
Not so much, unfortunately ...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Again: Adamantium doesn't slow down Wolverine's healing factor. It stabilizes his mutation. Those are two different things. Adamantium Wolverine doesn't heal slower now then he did when he was Bone-Claw, but if he became Bone-Claw again his mutation would once again be unstable and start increasing exponentially. One thing has nothing to do with the radioactivity of Carbonadium.

No, it actually slows down his healing factor. Because the metal is poisoning his body and his healing factor is constantly fighting and healing that damage. He has like 100 extra pounds due to all the Adamantium lining his skeletal structure. For you to think it's not poisoning him is silly.

Originally posted by KingD19
Can't have been. There was only one C-Synth in existence, and Logan was the only one who knew where it was. So Ock having the armor simply shouldn't have happened.

And Red's armor is never stated, but it could be Secondary Adamantium due to the punishment it's taken. But I doubt the armor itself is carbonadium. Well apparently Doc Ock found a way to remove the harmful radiation associated with carbonadium for his own purposes. Whether or not carbonadium's convoluted history makes such an occurrence improbable is ultimately irrelevant; it's clearly happened on-panel.

Doesn't matter what his armor's made of, Omega Red has carbonadium implants somewhere in his body that protects him from his own death spores. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Carbonadium cleaned of it's radioactive impurities, is Adamantium.

If Arkady doesn't use his death factor, the spores build up in his body and slowly kill him. Carbonadium is supposed to negate this process, so he can live without constantly killing people and draining their life force. That doesn't seem to jive with the C-Synthesizer's function, but either way, Doc Ock can and has been using non-harmful carbonadium. Heck, he even installed it in his Spidey mask to thwart Parker.

Then it sounds like Doc Ock would arguably be resistant if not immune to the death spores then since he was almost completely covered in the stuff.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I agree that Arkady has some control over his spores and whether to release them or not. In fact, that was the point in that 1992 arc of Rogue throwing Arkady over to Matsuo and his allies, and she SAID as much (paraphrased) "I want you near your fan club so you don't go shootin' and sprayin' your death factor all over the place"...

I think you're wrong about Wolverine, though.

Pretty sure Arkady DID use his death factor on Wolverine.
That's precisely why someone remarked about the match:

"Any other would have died, long, long ago ..."


Think I might be able to provide THAT scan in due time.

THAT sort of thing people would race to post in a Wolverine respect thread.
The ones I'm looking for about C-synth?
Not so much, unfortunately ...

Oh no, I was using the fight as an example that he could use it at will and it wasn't always in effect. During the 18 hour fight he told Logan he was using it and it has an adverse effect on healing factors, even those as powerful as his.

And no ODG, the Carbonadium doesn't protect him from his death spores. Him releasing them periodically from his body when they build up protects him. He needs the C-Synth for his implants to do their job correctly.

Originally posted by KingD19
No it isn't, it's a lot more malleable than Adamantium, which is why Arkady has coils instead of claws, as Carbonadium can still be flexible once fully hardened instead of completely rigid like Adamantium.

Yes it is. Red directly stated Carbonadium was a form of Adamantium in one of his first appearances. Divorced of the impurities that those corner cutting Ruskies implemented, it would be Adamantium.

Originally posted by KingD19
And no ODG, the Carbonadium doesn't protect him from his death spores. Him releasing them periodically from his body when they build up protects him. He needs the C-Synth for his implants to do their job correctly. Others say differently, as does my memory.

Originally posted by KingD19
No, it actually slows down his healing factor. Because the metal is poisoning his body and his healing factor is constantly fighting and healing that damage. He has like 100 extra pounds due to all the Adamantium lining his skeletal structure. For you to think it's not poisoning him is silly.

Adamantium poisoning is not really poisoning at all. The metal inhibits Wolverine's body's natural ability for his bone marrow to created blood cells. His healing factor easily compensates for this and it's not even worth mentioning as long as his healing factor is active.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Again: Adamantium doesn't slow down Wolverine's healing factor. It stabilizes his mutation. Those are two different things. Adamantium Wolverine doesn't heal slower now then he did when he was Bone-Claw, but if he became Bone-Claw again his mutation would once again be unstable and start increasing exponentially.


You won't be able to convince me this is significantly different from the effect of Carbonadium, not given that the whole reason Logan was CHOSEN for the Weapon X program in so many stories was because his healing factor would allow him to survive the bonding process and compensate for the ill health effects adamantium would otherwise cause.

The rest of what you describe is all but impossible to separate from the power creep that afflicted nearly all comic book characters from the 1980s onward.

Sabretooth back in the 80s, for instance, was hospitalized for days because he ripped some of Spider-Man's webbing off his face. It re-opened some wounds the Black Cat had made on him in a street fight a while earlier. Nowadays? I seem to recall some off-the-wall story where someone actually cut Sabey's HEAD off and he reattached it and went about his business. MASSIVE power inflation has occurred with these guys since the familiar stories of yesteryear were told.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

One thing has nothing to do with the radioactivity of Carbonadium.

Not only do I agree with this last sentence, it is, in a roundabout way, the very point I've been trying to make.
Taxing healing factors isn't proof that carbonadium would cause near-instant debilitating harm to ordinary people if worn as body armor, nor the fact that it can create problems as a surgical implant.

Originally posted by ODG
That doesn't seem to jive with the C-Synthesizer's function, but either way, Doc Ock can and has been using non-harmful carbonadium. Heck, he even installed it in his Spidey mask to thwart Parker.

Then it sounds like Doc Ock would arguably be resistant if not immune to the death spores then since he was almost completely covered in the stuff.

I'm right there with you on that one. The C-Synth doesn't really make any sense in the way it's been explained.

Red has Carbonadium implanted inside his body, and his armor is made out of the stuff... and the Deathspores are still killing him. So what is the point of the C-Synth? How much Carbonadium does the guy need for his Deathspores not to kill himself?

I can see this discussion will take awhile to sort out all particulars.
Hopefully ODG will be kind enough to supply the scans I need to clarify things eventually.

In the meantime, it might be worthwhile to point out why Doctor Octopus is Doctor Octopus to begin with, namely that he was, from the very beginning, a top researcher of radioactive materials and their handling. That's precisely why he's got those tentacles ...

I point this out because it seems strange to me that people would argue that a man specialized in the handling of such things, specialized in creating devices to deal with things like uranium, and carbonadium, and any other substance/plot/materialiums that might arise, would not have sense enough to come up with a way to get around those problems.

HOWEVER, if you DO want it that way, it's also worth pointing out that Doctor Octopus, like Jen Walters and Bruce Banner's friend Rick, and a host of others, has demonstrated the ability to tolerate far higher dosages of radioactive than your average person, healing factor or no:




Source: Amazing Spider-Man #3, Volume 1
Writer: Stan Lee
Penciller: Steve Ditko
Year: 1963

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm right there with you on that one. The C-Synth doesn't really make any sense in the way it's been explained.

Red has Carbonadium implanted inside his body, and his armor is made out of the stuff... and the Deathspores are still killing him. So what is the point of the C-Synth? How much Carbonadium does the guy need for his Deathspores not to kill himself? I was under the impression only his coils were carbonadium and that he wanted C-Synth carbonadium specifically (not necessarily more carbonadium) that wouldn't also be harmful to himself.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You won't be able to convince me this is significantly different from the effect of Carbonadium, not given that the whole reason Logan was CHOSEN for the Weapon X program in so many stories was because his healing factor would allow him to survive the bonding process and compensate for the ill health effects adamantium would otherwise cause.

The rest of what you describe is all but impossible to separate from the power creep that afflicted nearly all comic book characters from the 1980s onward.

Sabretooth back in the 80s, for instance, was hospitalized for days because he ripped some of Spider-Man's webbing off his face. It re-opened some wounds the Black Cat had made on him in a street fight a while earlier. Nowadays? I seem to recall some off-the-wall story where someone actually cut Sabey's HEAD off and he reattached it and went about his business. MASSIVE power inflation has occurred with these guys since the familiar stories of yesteryear were told.



Not only do I agree with this last sentence, it is, in a roundabout way, the very point I've been trying to make.
Taxing healing factors isn't proof that carbonadium would cause near-instant debilitating harm to ordinary people if worn as body armor, nor the fact that it can create problems as a surgical implant.

Make no mistake, Wolverine's healing factor is an necessity for living with an Adamantium skeleton. Without his healing factor, allowing for the possibility that he somehow survived the bonding process, the Adamantium would slowly kill him. The Adamantium inhibits his bodies ability to create white blood cells, without his healing factor to commentate for his it would be like he had a combination of AIDS and Leukemia. When his mutant powers are active this is a trifling detail that is easily handled.

The difference being that Wolverine's "power creep" wasn't arbitrary and baseless. We know why his powers increased, there was a story line created to explain it unlike the vast majority of characters who just kept getting more powerful with no rhyme or reason.

Sabretooth back in the 80s didn't yet have a healing factor written into his character by Claremont when that specific event transpired.

It's radioactive. It was killing Cyber. I'm not sure what sort of loop hole you are trying to find here, but being in the vicinity of radioactive materials is bad. It gives you radiation poisoning... which is a terrible way to go. Ask Lex Luthor.

Originally posted by ODG
I was under the impression only his coils were carbonadium and that he wanted C-Synth carbonadium specifically (not necessarily more carbonadium) that wouldn't also be harmful to himself.

I know his armor has been stated as being Carbonadium before, but there is a possibility it was in TAS. I'm pretty sure 616 Red's armor is Carbonadium but not positive.

The C-Synth is used to make Carbonadium. Arkady already has Carbonadium. It's not like it does something to the Carbonadium he already has... or if that's what it is supposed to do, that's never been adequately explained. Like I said, the whole thing doesn't really make any sense to me. I think it's just one of many examples of sloppy 90s comic storytelling.

His armor has never been stated to be Carbonadium in canon to my knowledge. More people consider it closer to secondary adamantium.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I know his armor has been stated as being Carbonadium before, but there is a possibility it was in TAS. I'm pretty sure 616 Red's armor is Carbonadium but not positive.

The C-Synth is used to make Carbonadium. Arkady already has Carbonadium. It's not like it does something to the Carbonadium he already has... or if that's what it is supposed to do, that's never been adequately explained. Like I said, the whole thing doesn't really make any sense to me. I think it's just one of many examples of sloppy 90s comic storytelling. Are you saying the C-Synthesizer doesn't make non-radioactive carbonadium? It's just a machine that produces carbonadium?

Originally posted by ODG
Are you saying the C-Synthesizer doesn't make non-radioactive carbonadium? It's just a machine that produces carbonadium?

Yup.

The whole thing is stupid.

It produced Carbonadium in it's final state and can also be used to cleanse it.

Carbonadium wasn't retcon'd into being radioactive until decades after it (and Red) first appeared. No writer has subsequently gone in and added that ability to the C-Synth... probably because the only writer who has really addressed any of this is Daniel Way, who is staggeringly incompetent.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yup.

The whole thing is stupid. I reread it, Omega Red needed the C-Synth because the carbonadium implants he originally had (and never replaced) had corroded over time. The C-Synth would create a clean sample of carbonadium.

@srank

I thought OR's armor was stated to be made out of carbonadium only in the cartoon?

Originally posted by ODG
I reread it, Omega Red needed the C-Synth because the carbonadium implants he originally had (and never replaced) had corroded over time. The C-Synth would create a clean sample of carbonadium.

Where'd you read that? X-Men 04-06?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Where'd you read that? X-Men 04-06? Wolverine: Origins #9:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Carbonadium01WolverineOrigins10.jpg

So according to the retcon, it is the Carbonadium that is killing him, and no longer his powers.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
@srank

I thought OR's armor was stated to be made out of carbonadium only in the cartoon?

There is a chance it was just in TAS, but I think I've read it somewhere too.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So according to the retcon, it is the Carbonadium that is killing him, and no longer his powers. It's both. Since the agent (carbonadium) that was supposed to counter-act his death spores harmful effects had corroded to such a point where it was also killing him.

Originally posted by ODG
It's both. Since the agent (carbonadium) that was supposed to counter-act his death spores harmful effects had corroded to such a point where it was also killing him.

Any chance you have anything FROM X-Men #5-7 (1992) concerning Carbonadium and the C-Synthesizer?

That'd be helpful to this discussion, too ...

Originally posted by ODG
It's both. Since the agent (carbonadium) that was supposed to counter-act his death spores harmful effects had corroded to such a point where it was also killing him.

I don't know, I fell like this probably supersedes the original explanation, instead of compounding it. Either way it's convoluted.

Originally posted by ODG
It's both. Since the agent (carbonadium) that was supposed to counter-act his death spores harmful effects had corroded to such a point where it was also killing him.


Wolverine: Origins #9:


http://marvel.wikia.com/Wolverine:_Origins_Vol_1_9


February 2007, hey?

Interesting ...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know, I fell like this probably supersedes the original explanation, instead of compounding it. Either way it's convoluted. What's convoluted about it? Like you said, Omega Red had carbonadium implanted to inhibit his own death spores from harming him.

Later on, it turns out that the carbonadium implants -- which hadn't been replaced for 30 years -- had corroded to the point where the "cure" (carbonadium) became just as lethal as the "disease" (his death spores). Like Captain Marvel's negabands when they inhibited all cancer treatment and mutated it.

Omega Red needs new, clean carbonadium to replace it, hence his recently desperate search for the C-Synthesizer.

Nothing's ever stated that suggests that the carbonadium's original purpose (inhibiting his death factor) was ever retconned. In fact, the corroded carbonadium was probably still serving that purpose otherwise he'd have been doubly screwed.

Originally posted by ODG
What's convoluted about it? Like you said, Omega Red had carbonadium implanted to inhibit his own death spores from harming him.

Later on, it turns out that the carbonadium implants -- which hadn't been replaced for 30 years -- had corroded to the point where the "cure" (carbonadium) became just as lethal as the "disease" (his death spores). Like Captain Marvel's negabands when they inhibited all cancer treatment and mutated it.

Omega Red needs new, clean carbonadium to replace it, hence his recently desperate search for the C-Synthesizer.

Nothing's ever stated that suggests that the carbonadium's original purpose (inhibiting his death factor) was ever retconned. In fact, the corroded carbonadium was probably still serving that purpose otherwise he'd have been doubly screwed.

I find the whole thing convoluted. When Red first tangled with Team X during the Cold War, he was already after the C-Synth... but at that point in time the Carbonadium he had would have been "fresh"... so why wasn't the Carbonadium doing it's job then? He then gets frozen for 30 years, and it's the same deal when he gets thawed. So the implication would be that the Carbonadium was already corrupted... but then why doesn't Wolverine know that? And why would Red trade the C-Synth for a cure to the Carbonadium poisoning? Then he'd be back in the same boat he was in during the Cold War, where he didn't have a cure for his deathspores.

Someone should stream line this story.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I find the whole thing convoluted. When Red first tangled with Team X during the Cold War, he was already after the C-Synth... but at that point in time the Carbonadium he had would have been "fresh"... so why wasn't the Carbonadium doing it's job then? He then gets frozen for 30 years, and it's the same deal when he gets thawed. So the implication would be that the Carbonadium was already corrupted... but then why doesn't Wolverine know that? Because it was valuable? Was Omega Red incredibly desperate back then to have the C-Synthesizer as he clearly was in Wolverine: Origins? And you haven't pointed to any evidence suggesting that the carbonadium wasn't doing its job back then or even now concerning the death spores. The only thing we know is that the carbonadium itself had become lethal by the time he showed back up in Wolverine: Origins. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And why would Red trade the C-Synth for a cure to the Carbonadium poisoning? Then he'd be back in the same boat he was in during the Cold War, where he didn't have a cure for his deathspores.

Someone should stream line this story. Because he needs assistance implanting it in his body and/or he doesn't want to have to go through this all again and replace carbonadium periodically when the replacement carbonadium will corrode?

None of these questions you pose seem to relevant or even unanswerable, given a little bit of thought.

Originally posted by ODG
Because it was valuable? Was Omega Red incredibly desperate back then to have the C-Synthesizer as he clearly was in Wolverine: Origins? And you haven't pointed to any evidence suggesting that the carbonadium wasn't doing its job back then or even now concerning the death spores. The only thing we know is that the carbonadium itself had become lethal by the time he showed back up in Wolverine: Origins. Because he needs assistance implanting it in his body and/or he doesn't want to have to go through this all again and replace carbonadium periodically when the replacement carbonadium will corrode?

None of these questions you pose seem to relevant or even unanswerable, given a little bit of thought.

I didn't say the questions couldn't be answered, I said the situation was convoluted... and it is.