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Savage Opress is at the highest level of power was shown at during Clone Wars, season 3.

vs.

TPM Darth Maul


Force
Sabers
All-out

Who wins?

Meh, I'll go with Savage in all 3.

Though I keep going back and fourth with sabers.

Dooku's words suggest that Opress is not yet Maul's equal, but he does have superior showings.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
but he does have superior showings.

Simultaneously force-choking Dooku and Asajj without either of them being able to break free, as well as dueling Kenobi and Anakin on near-equal ground, is proof enough of that. Imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Simultaneously force-choking Dooku and Asajj without either of them being able to break free,

I don't think that should 'count', exactly, because Dooku was tooling him and Ventress at the same time. Under normal conditions, the good Count would slaughter Mr. Opress.

Is that his real name? It's so stupid.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I don't think that should 'count', exactly, because Dooku was tooling him and Ventress at the same time. Under normal conditions, the good Count would slaughter Mr. Opress.

It does count because during that fight Savage got a serious Force power boost.. Before that him and Ventress together could not defeat the Count. But after that Ventress and Dooku together were on the run from him.

Plus he was completely overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan together, and even driving them back in just the Saber portion of the fight. A much better showing than what Dooku has shown against those same 2. (I sense Borbarad will have my head for this)



Originally posted by RagingBoner
Dooku's words suggest that Opress is not yet Maul's equal, but he does have superior showings.

He may not have yet been Maul's equal before he got that huge power boost, but he became wayyy more powerful than TPM Maul during that fight. But we'll have to wait and see if they really do bring Maul back, if he's grown more powerful as well.

also killed a jedi master in about a second... maul never did that.

DP
It does count because during that fight Savage got a serious Force power boost...

It counts about as much as Ventress doing the same thing in Nightsisters: She Force-choked Kenobi/Skywalker at the same time while wounded. Does that mean she's on par with Opress because she was able to take on Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously? No. Opress and Ventress were the beneficiaries of temporary battle rage that bolstered their abilities. Under normal circumstances, Obi-Wan and Anakin would defeat Ventress and Dooku would manhandle Opress.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I don't think that should 'count', exactly, because Dooku was tooling him and Ventress at the same time. Under normal conditions, the good Count would slaughter Mr. Opress. In all fairness, that was before Savage got the 'warrior rage' force boost. Either way, all I was saying is that Savage seemed to be depicted as a pretty legitimate threat to Dooku. I mean, the good Count surely would have broken free of the force choke if he could have. That's not to say that Savage would beat Dooku in a force contest - just that his power is enough to pose a threat to someone of Dooku's caliber - thus he should smoke Maul in that area.

Im not buying this temporary Force boost thing that just happened in those circumstances and most likely wnt be accessed again when needed.

I dnt think Anakin and Obi-Wan were ever going to lose to Ventress together, even when they were being choked. Its not clear how long she could have kept that up, and this after they already had chances to kill her if they wished. But I think it did show shes better with the Force than either of them.

And Im not convinced at all Savage's boost was temporary. It lasted long enough for him to first tool Ventress and Dooku together and have them on the run, then go on to tool Anakin and Obi-Wan, and still have enough power left to put down a droid army with one blast.

Even if that is temporary, it's certainly a very powerful state he's capable of achieving in battle. A boost Dooku has never been seen to have access to. So I say he tools Dooku. And lets not forget Savage actually beat Dooku in the Saber fight even before the Boost. All Dooku could do was keep him at bay with his FL, and thats actually what triggered his Force Boost.

In any case we will find out next season if he managed to keep that level of power, but I dnt see why not.

That wasn't exactly a duel between Opress and the good Count. He swung, Dooku evaded; he swung again and knocked Dooku's lightsaber away. Opress wasn't capable of hanging with Dooku on his own, hence why the good Count was evading and outmaneuvering both of them despite the restricting confines of his quarters. Dooku was more agile, more experienced, and better trained. In Opress's own words, Dooku was "too powerful."

Only when he tapped deeper into his rage than we've ever seen was he capable of temporarily gaining the upper hand. But, again, Ventress did the exact same thing with Anakin and Obi-Wan, but she's barely a match for one of them in a conventional duel, let alone both.

In a typical fight, Dooku would defeat Opress. He's just better.

Wait, Opress disarmed Dooku is two strikes!?

LMAO, how the hell is that not proving he's better again?

N.
Wait, Opress disarmed Dooku is two strikes!?

LMAO, how the hell is that not proving he's better again?

I'm guessing you actually haven't watched the duel given the question, so it might be wise to refrain from your sarcastic questions until you've actually done so. queerbayt

Here you go, being the good Samaritan that I am. The good Count is disarmed simply because Opress's strength is sufficient to hurl him across the room, where he drops his lightsaber. If you continue to watch the episode, you'll notice that both Obi-Wan and Anakin are knocked aside by Opress's prodigious strength and yet both manage to keep hold of their lightsabers. Are they better duelists than Dooku because they managed to keep hold of them? No. The unarmed Count was then able to evade Ventress and Opress, continuing the duel and overpowering the Zabrak with Force lightning. Opress's own admission is that Dooku is too powerful for him.

The conclusion is that while Opress is a very dangerous fighter and is physically leagues beyond Dooku, the good Count is a more powerful, dangerous, and skilled combatant.

I was going from your own words sir! Which clearly state 'He swung, Dooku evaded; he swung again and knocked Dooku's lightsaber away.' How else was I to take that to mean?

Don't blame me for your poor expository skills, you cad.

N.
I was going from your own words sir! Which clearly state 'He swung, Dooku evaded; he swung again and knocked Dooku's lightsaber away.' How else was I to take that to mean?

Don't blame me for your poor expository skills, you cad.

Well that's clearly not what happened in the video, which means you're wrong and I'm not because you're queer and queers are wronger than straight people who are wrong because that's what the Bible says so fvck you.

And if 'cad' is a reference to Cad Bane, I gladly accept.

BUT IT IS CLEARLY WHAT YOU ORIGGINNALLY SAID IN YOUR POST SO I WAS CORRECT TO MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION!{/i]

It was not a reference you buffon. Not everything is about sex you knwo.

Ok, looking at the fight, I do get the impression Dooku was solidly the strongest there. Sure, Opress started doing a lot better when he was force-raging, but he grabbed them when Ventress and Dooku were fighting each other, and he didn't hold them too long so it's hard to say whether they could've broken free. After he threw them, they both blasted him, and at no point was Dooku not splitting between two opponent.

As for the Jedi, they seemed to largely playing it cautious, throwing out few attacks but generally keeping a solid defense, likely wary of a lucky attack from his strength.

Even when in his 'force rage' mode he was throwing a lot more powers out, but others were still able to keep some control of the fight.


So I'm with RB on this.

--

Opress is someone who easily *could* grow into a fighter who'd be really uber, and is still formidable as-is but needs more training.

Opress needs to learn how to use his lightsaber to block FL.

when does season 4 start?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Opress needs to learn how to use his lightsaber to block FL.

Seriously That's what kept screwing him over time and again.

Lol he asked Dooku "how do you defend against such power", and Dooku said "a good master does not give away all his secrets at once" (my secret of putting your lightsaber in the way!!)

In all seriousness I think the whole triliogy shows FL is not as easy to defend against as we orginially thought.. Even Ventress aided by 2 nighsisters were unable to do so. Or maybe Dooku's FL is a lot more powerful than we thought.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
In Opress's own words, Dooku was "too powerful."

That was before his power boost.. We know Dooku was more powerful before that point.


Originally posted by RagingBoner
In a typical fight, Dooku would defeat Opress. He's just better.

Unless he goes into this mysterious Force Rage state again??

I honestly think his boost in power was permanent. There was no indication anywhere it was temporary. And it lasted a while. If nothing else it shows his potential, and how powerful he will learn to be "permanently" by next season.

Originally posted by Q99
Seriously That's what kept screwing him over time and again.

Like seeing a bee fly into a window.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
In a typical fight, Dooku would defeat Opress. He's just better. Agreed. It could also be argued that Dooku not being prepared for Savage's enormous boost in power, and subsequent attack(s), is how he was momentarily 'overpowered' - but either way, I don't think it can be argued that Savage isn't powerful enough to pose a threat to Dooku... But that's neither here nor there.

Unrelated tangents aside, Savage at the height of his season 3 power would trounce TPM Maul.

maybe not either. In pure power yes, but very unrefined with a saber. Maul was a master swordsman...

Now how Savage just randomnly killed a Jedi master in 2 seconds, as I pointed out... something Dooku has never done.

Originally posted by truejedi
maybe not either. In pure power yes, but very unrefined with a saber. Maul was a master swordsman... Savage also competed with Anakin and Kenobi pretty equally in sabers - something I can't imagine TPM Maul doing with the same degree of ease (if at all.) Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Galan007
Savage also competed with Anakin and Kenobi pretty equally in sabers - something I can't imagine TPM Maul doing with the same degree of ease (if at all.) Just my opinion.

The Nightsisters are sending Oppress to be trained by Maul for a reason though. What would that reason be? My guess is to refine his lightsaber ability and to some extent, his Force abilities.

With refinement in these areas, Oppress should pose a serious threat to everyone, save for possibly Master Yoda.

i don't even know... remember how it used to be you needed training to even HOLD a lightsaber without killing yourself? And now any idiot who grabs one can fight off Jedi?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The Nightsisters are sending Oppress to be trained by Maul for a reason though. What would that reason be? My guess is to refine his lightsaber ability and to some extent, his Force abilities. Right. I'm just saying that as of right now Savage's feats > Maul's. But considering how the animated Clone Wars series likes to shit on established continuity, we'll really just have to wait and see what happens next season...

Originally posted by truejedi
i don't even know... remember how it used to be you needed training to even HOLD a lightsaber without killing yourself? And now any idiot who grabs one can fight off Jedi?

Sadly, this is true - smh.

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed. It could also be argued that Dooku not being prepared for Savage's enormous boost in power, and subsequent attack(s), is how he was momentarily 'overpowered'

Yes but look at what he did after that? Sent Obiwan and Anakin flying back simultaneously. Was Overpowering both of them in Sabers and with the Force. Sent a whole army of battle driods, 3 Destroyer droids and Anakin and Obiwan down in one Force wave! This was all way beyond anything Dooku has ever displayed!

Originally posted by Galan007
Unrelated tangents aside, Savage at the height of his season 3 power would trounce TPM Maul.

At the "Height" of his power he would also trounce Dooku. But before his power boost Id say he was probably in Maul's league. Perhaps his skill was less refined, but on the other hand he was physically stonger than Maul.

I'm guessing that by "height of his power", you're referring to his rage boost, correct? If so then I strongly disagree!! Count Dooku is FAR too refined to be defeated by Oppress. Yes Savage is insanely powerful physically, but he is a clutz compared to Dooku. Had Dooku been ready for such an attack, he would have skewered Oppress.

While I'm not too sure if I like the idea of Maul coming back, I am excited to see how it all plays out. I have a feeling that Mother Talzin has something personal against Darth Sidious and is planning on using Darth Maul and Savage Opress to destroy him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It does count because during that fight Savage got a serious Force power boost.. Before that him and Ventress together could not defeat the Count. But after that Ventress and Dooku together were on the run from him.

Erm. You did see that he caught them off-guard with the force attack, given that they were engaged in a saber lock, obviously focusing on eachother, rather than on Savage? You do also notice how they blast him aside, once on their feet again?



He, essentially, engaged the duo in a corridor, where they had to take him straight on. With his sheer mass and a double blade, he obviously blocked the entire corridor rather well, leaving not too much space for them to manouver or drive him back exactly. So they took the only option left and went back.

And he did better than Dooku? Did I miss him knocking one of them out, removing him from the fight or was that just not present? He's physical more powerful than the Count, I'll give him that, but he clearly lacks finesse in terms of saber ability and force mastery.




I'm rather sure you're underestimating Maul's ability. You may want to read the books about him. He's far more badass than he appears to be on screen in the EU.

IF Maul is resurrected, I'm curious how it will happen. Did the Nightsisters mend his two halves together via magic? Are his lower extremities going to be robotic, as they were in Visionaries? Is he just going to be a talking torso? Etc.

Imo, it's kind of ridiculous to bring him back, just for the lulz. Seems like something they would do solely to boost ratings/make $.

Maul was already dead while falling down that hole, his eyes wide open, no way to stop himself from hitting whatever he was falling towards on a hostile planet with no other allies around at a time when Sidious didn't even have ONE other apprentice. Whatever happened is going to be unbelievable.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Galan007

Imo, it seems kind of ridiculous to bring him back, just for the lulz. Seems like something they would do solely to boost ratings/make $.

Seconded.

Btw, talking torso Maul would be like WTF, and probably will not help much Oppress with lightsaber training.

Originally posted by truejedi
Maul was already dead while falling down that hole, his eyes wide open, no way to stop himself from hitting whatever he was falling towards on a hostile planet with no other allies around at a time when Sidious didn't even have ONE other apprentice. Whatever happened is going to be unbelievable.

You're telling me that, because his eyes were wide open when he was falling, that means he was dead? Dude didn't blink once until he finally got sliced in half. His eyes were ALWAYS open.

Originally posted by truejedi
Maul was already dead while falling down that hole, his eyes wide open, no way to stop himself from hitting whatever he was falling towards on a hostile planet with no other allies around at a time when Sidious didn't even have ONE other apprentice. Whatever happened is going to be unbelievable.

Maybe they got ahold of the Sceptre of Ragnos or somesuch.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. You did see that he caught them off-guard with the force attack, given that they were engaged in a saber lock, obviously focusing on eachother, rather than on Savage?

Yes but he was force choking both of them simultaneously! And they culdnt break it!

Originally posted by Borbarad
You do also notice how they blast him aside, once on their feet again?

Ermm yeah after he sent them both flying back.. (this time they were expecting it).. But yeah then both of them had to put their powers together to blast him away.


Originally posted by Borbarad
He, essentially, engaged the duo in a corridor, where they had to take him straight on. With his sheer mass and a double blade, he obviously blocked the entire corridor rather well, leaving not too much space for them to manouver or drive him back exactly. So they took the only option left and went back.

Urm yeah not really buying any excuses for that. He sent both of them plus a whole army of battle droids to the floor with a Force Blast.

Hey Ventress gave both those 2 a run for their money in enough open space. And she even managed to force choke them both when cornered, so im not buying those 2 just culdnt take Savage (whose clearly significantly more powerful than Ventress) due to a corridor.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And he did better than Dooku? Did I miss him knocking one of them out, removing him from the fight or was that just not present?.

Ok thats a fair point. I guess theyve both owned this duo at one point.


Originally posted by Borbarad
He's physical more powerful than the Count, I'll give him that, but he clearly lacks finesse in terms of saber ability and force mastery.

He physically a lot more powerful, and his natural force tk has a lot more raw power to it as well. Whilst the Count has the skill, mastery and finesse in the Saber and Force department.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm rather sure you're underestimating Maul's ability. You may want to read the books about him. He's far more badass than he appears to be on screen in the EU.

Oh no Im not underestimating Maul. But if he had the same raw power as per TPM that Savage had during his boost in force power, then he obviously would have just sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan flying around all over the place.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but he was force choking both of them simultaneously! And they culdnt break it!




You mean in the ENTIRE 3 or 4 seconds they were being choked? Wow! You're basing an awful lot on such limited information.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ermm yeah after he sent them both flying back.. (this time they were expecting it).. But yeah then both of them had to put their powers together to blast him away.




Just because both of them happened to blast him together doesn't mean that they needed to do so. That's a logical fallacy DP.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm yeah not really buying any excuses for that. He sent both of them plus a whole army of battle droids to the floor with a Force Blast.




This has nothing to do with the 'saber portion of the fight', which is what you posted, of which Borbarad was responding to.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You mean in the ENTIRE 3 or 4 seconds they were being choked? Wow! You're basing an awful lot on such limited information.

Exactly. It's not like Force users have incredible reflexes or anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Exactly. It's not like Force users have incredible reflexes or anything.

The resident poop shoot pirate speaks again. Quit stalking me you damn nerd.

Quit saying stoopid things and maybe I will.


I wont though. Teehee!

um, no ways, cause Ventress was choking Obi-Wan and Anakin for 3 or 4 seconds, and they didn't block, and it doesn't mean they COULDN'T block.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You mean in the ENTIRE 3 or 4 seconds they were being choked? Wow! You're basing an awful lot on such limited information.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Just because both of them happened to blast him together doesn't mean that they needed to do so. That's a logical fallacy DP.

Iv yet to hear any decent logic how Dooku is more powerful than or even as powerful as Savage (after his power boost).. What proof do you need before you accept it?? He Force chokes Dooku and Ventress together.. Oh he got them by surprise ok?? Well they had time to react and break out of it, but clearly could not..

What else, he chucks them both away with the Force.. This also doesn't count for some reason?? Ok.. Then Ventress and Dooku must put their powers together to blast him away, and then they both run from him.. But what for absolutely no reason Im supposed to believe that Dooku could have done that by himself without Ventress.. Really?

Then he's able to use his TK to chuck both Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, and pretty damn far.. Dooku was never able to use his TK to overpower both these 2 simultaneously that Badly..

And then he uses a massive force wave which puts down 2 Jedis, 3 Destroyer droids and an army of battle droids.. A feat way beyond any TK we've ever seen from the likes of Jedi/Sith on the caliber Mace Windu/Count Dooku. Thats the biggest TK feat we've seen since Starkiller.

Your coming up with too many maybes, what if's, and just missing the blatantly obvious that any one watching the episode could see. Savage was a monster, created by nightsister magic, Possibly more powerful than any jedi. Hey Im a fan of Count Dooku, but im not gna ignore what they blatantly show us.

If you dnt see it now then enjoy your time of denial before next season, because you know they're gna continue to show how uber powerful this guy is.

^ A wounded Ventress Force-choked Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously two episodes or so prior. Does that make her more powerful than either of them, when she is (at best) their equal?

Uh, he really didn't have them for very long, just a few seconds before tossing them.


And even after he did so, Dooku was still going back and forth between him and Ventress and still doing fine.

Originally posted by truejedi
um, no ways, cause Ventress was choking Obi-Wan and Anakin for 3 or 4 seconds, and they didn't block, and it doesn't mean they COULDN'T block.

Yeah but she didnt go on to chucking them both away with the Force and having them both on the run.

If they culd have blocked the choke then why exactly didnt they? Sidious says at the beginning of the episode She's becoming too powerful. She might not have been able to keep up that choke, but it showed she has clearly become better with the Force than either of these two.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
^ A wounded Ventress Force-choked Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously two episodes or so prior. Does that make her more powerful than either of them, when she is (at best) their equal?

Maybe both examples should be chalked up to the writers not knowing a damn thing about logic power levels.

There is no reason to believe that Ventress is more powerful than either Anakin or Obi-Wan nor is there reason to believe Savage is more powerful than Dooku. In a moment of extreme rage, Savage throttled two duelists focusing on one another. Before that, he was a nuisance to the good Count and nothing more.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, he really didn't have them for very long, just a few seconds before tossing them.

And this proves Dooku's more powerful than Savage how exactly?


Originally posted by Q99
And even after he did so, Dooku was still going back and forth between him and Ventress and still doing fine.

Urm no, he only focused on her for a second to make his escape after they'd blasted him away together.

N.
Maybe both examples should be chalked up to the writers not knowing a damn thing about logic power levels.

I'd actually say it's the writers understanding the temporary power afforded by a Force-user who taps into his rage.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
There is no reason to believe that Ventress is more powerful than either Anakin or Obi-Wan nor is there reason to believe Savage is more powerful than Dooku. In a moment of extreme rage, Savage throttled two duelists focusing on one another. Before that, he was a nuisance to the good Count and nothing more.

This is just a theory of yours. Theres no proof this power boost was temporary. He uses it against Anakin, and ObiWan and then on all those droids e.t.c.

We'll find out next year anyway. But nothing to suggest he's lost that extra power so far.

Well, I'm no expert, but I can't recall an instance in which Force users gain permanent powers from calling on rage in the midst of a duel. In fact, common sense dictates this isn't the case: If Ventress had become so powerful as to manhandle Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously, would she not be on par with the Count?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
^ A wounded Ventress Force-choked Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously two episodes or so prior. Does that make her more powerful than either of them, when she is (at best) their equal?

She went all out with the force, after being disarmed and cornered. Sidious says at the start of the episode shes becoming too powerful.

She actually put Obi-Wan down disarming him in the Saber fight as well, while fighting off Anakin.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'd actually say it's the writers understanding the temporary power afforded by a Force-user who taps into his rage.

That would be like doubling in power (the power needed to overwhelm two people at about the same strength as you simultaneously). Thats a little extreme don't you think?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Well, I'm no expert, but I can't recall an instance in which Force users gain permanent powers from calling on rage in the midst of a duel. In fact, common sense dictates this isn't the case: If Ventress had become so powerful as to manhandle Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously, would she not be on par with the Count?

The count would beat both these two, you saw what he did to Ventress plus 2 nightsisters with his FL, while blinded. Whilst Ventress was clearly losing to the Anakin, Obi-Wan duo. As a last resort she went all out with the force. We dnt know how long she could have kept that up, but this was after Anakin and Obi already had oppurtunities to kill her, but were asking her to surrender. Yeah theres no way she was she'd beat them both, unlike the Count.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'd actually say it's the writers understanding the temporary power afforded by a Force-user who taps into his rage. To be fair, Savage's power didn't appear to decrease in the slightest after he force-choked Ventress and Dooku. If it had, it's unlikely that he would have still been able to compete with Anakin/Kenobi afterward, AND let out that fancy omni-directional force attack he used just before fleeing.

Imo, it seemed more like a "so THIS is what I can do" moment, rather than a simple rage-induced temporary boost in power /shrug. But, again, the only way to know for sure is to wait for season 4.

?

Count Dooku makes muppets out of the animate with hilarious and incomparable frequency, tiger. Tholme and Sora Bulq (the legendary lightsaber instructor, Vaapad practitioner, and master of every classical and experimental lightsaber form known to the archives) attack: the former has his eye gouged out and a ceiling dropped on his head, the latter is knocked senseless with a casual one-handed burst of lightning.

And then converted.

Ventress, Naa'leth, Karis: despite shooting him in his sleep with a dart that stole his eyesight, these three were repeatedly tossed around and their assaults largely evaded until the man struck all three of them with a single barrage of lightning, pulled them into the air, and threw them out his goddamn window.

Ventress, Opress: your apparent inability to grasp what's going on here notwithstanding, Dooku was manhandling the duo before Opress lost his shit and tried to murder everyone. Opress spent the majority of that fight on his knees leaking smoke and Ventress - as was demonstrated immediately afterward - would have been eviscerated on her own. Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

Obi-Wan, Anakin: he starts strangling Obi-Wan with his mind while sending Anakin sailing through the air with his foot* - without looking at him, mind you - then chucks Obi-Wan across the room before ripping a chunk of steel out of the wall and dropping it on him.

*Look ma, no hands!

Opress' sheer physicality and talent make him a warrior of considerable worth, but he is far too raw, inexperienced and brutish to pose a serious threat to the elite of his era. A momentary lapse into complacency aside, Maul is a fiercely cunning and extraordinarily skilled fighter who would likely be able to take advantage of the flaws that rendered Opress helpless against the Count and kill him.

Originally posted by Eminence
?

Count Dooku makes muppets out of the animate with hilarious and incomparable frequency, tiger. Tholme and Sora Bulq (the legendary lightsaber instructor, Vaapad practitioner, and master of every classical and experimental lightsaber form known to the archives) attack: the former has his eye gouged out and a ceiling dropped on his head, the latter is knocked senseless with a casual one-handed burst of lightning.

And then converted.

Ventress, Naa'leth, Karis: despite shooting him in his sleep with a dart that stole his eyesight, these three were repeatedly tossed around and their assaults largely evaded until the man struck all three of them with a single barrage of lightning, pulled them into the air, and threw them out his goddamn window.

Ventress, Opress: your apparent inability to grasp what's going on here notwithstanding, Dooku was manhandling the duo before Opress lost his shit and tried to murder everyone. Opress spent the majority of that fight on his knees leaking smoke and Ventress - as was demonstrated immediately afterward - would have been eviscerated on her own. Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

Obi-Wan, Anakin: he starts strangling Obi-Wan with his mind while sending Anakin sailing through the air with his foot* - without looking at him, mind you - then chucks Obi-Wan across the room before ripping a chunk of steel out of the wall and dropping it on him.

*Look ma, no hands!

Opress' sheer physicality and talent make him a warrior of considerable worth, but he is far too raw, inexperienced and brutish to pose a serious threat to the elite of his era. A momentary lapse into complacency aside, Maul is a fiercely cunning and extraordinarily skilled fighter who would likely be able to take advantage of the flaws that rendered Opress helpless against the Count and kill him.

^ Add to the fact that Opress's feats after the duel with Dooku were not inconsistent with his feats before the duel with Dooku. He held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan on Toydaria and hurled their shuttle off a cliff with the Force. After the duel, he held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan and flattened a group of droids. But the boost of power during the duel with Dooku was temporary.

Originally posted by Eminence
Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber. That portion of the battle was pretty badass on Dooku's part. At that point in the duel they were both so insignificant that Dooku didn't even need a lightsaber to make them look like children.

G007
That portion of the battle was pretty badass on Dooku's part. At that point in the duel they were both so insignificant that Dooku didn't even need a lightsaber to make them look like children.

That's the ancient Sith only, G. Dooku is, at best, a mildly skilled neophyte compared to their unholy glory.





Wouldn't want anyone to jump your shit.

RagingBoner
^ Add to the fact that Opress's feats after the duel with Dooku were not inconsistent with his feats before the duel with Dooku. He held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan on Toydaria and hurled their shuttle off a cliff with the Force. After the duel, he held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan and flattened a group of droids. But the boost of power during the duel with Dooku was temporary.
Possibly. His targets were locked in combat and momentarily off guard with respect to him; it isn't unreasonable that he managed to get the better of them in that instance.

In any case I don't think it's relevant to single combat against Maul. Trained as he was, he can presumably acquit himself admirably faced with wild telekinesis (see: Mace Windu vs. Kar Vastor).

Speaking of which, I would only three-tenths mind a TWC adaptation of Shatterpoint; the show's certainly willing to go to some moderately neutered rendition of the violence and visual depravity depicted in the novel, and Windu's badassery has not seen much exploitation in this series, as far as I'm aware. The potential for ensuing dramatic fvckery is largely offset by the spectacle that would be the jungle brawl and a properly depicted Kar Vastor.


TCW has treated the Count well.

Grievous, on the other hand...

Originally posted by RagingBoner
That's the ancient Sith only, G. Dooku is, at best, a mildly skilled neophyte compared to their unholy glory.





Wouldn't want anyone to jump your shit. doh

Originally posted by Eminence
Grievous, on the other hand... Yeah, it's pretty sad how much they've watered him down in TCW.

wait, doesn't it say in shatterpoint that Depa Billaba and Mace are the only two masters of Vapaad? Since when did Sora Bulq master it?

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, doesn't it say in shatterpoint that Depa Billaba and Mace are the only two masters of Vapaad? Since when did Sora Bulq master it?

Windu says Vaapad mastered Bulq, but that's likely a reference to Bulq succumbing to the dark side rather than controlling it. He helped Windu create the form.

okay. i see. pretty cool. do we know how he dies? (from someone who doesn't read comics?)

never mind, i'm being lazy. i wookied him myself.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Windu says Vaapad mastered Bulq, but that's likely a reference to Bulq succumbing to the dark side rather than controlling it. He helped Windu create the form. I think succumbing to the dark side would hinder Vaapad's effectiveness, though.

It was created so that it's user could channel an opponents darkness into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think succumbing to the dark side would hinder Vaapad's effectiveness, though.

It was created so that it's user could channel an opponentstheir own darkness into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

Why?

Vaapad is all about using the power of the darkness. It allows the usr to travel into the penumbra of the dark side without falling in. However, I see no reason why falling in would make it any less deadly.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was created so that it's user could channel an opponents darkness into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

Was it? In the RotS novel, Mace Windu says he created it so he could channel his own darkness, channeling the opponents seems to simply be a side effect.

^ Sorry, Zamp, I thought a Vaapad user channeling their own darkness into a weapon was obvious. I was moreso referring to what differentiated Vaapad from Juyo - ie. a user of Vaapad can deflect an opponent's darkness right back at them, "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". Without that 'effect', Juyo and Vaapad would essentially be the same thing, no?

G007
^ Sorry, I thought a Vaapad user channeling their own darkness into a weapon was obvious. I was moreso referring to what differentiated Vapad from Juyo - ie. a user of Vaapad can deflect an opponent's darkness right back at them, "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". Without that 'effect', Juyo and Vaapad would essentially be the same thing, no?

I'm not sure Juyo alone channels the user's darkness.

Originally posted by ares834
Was it? In the RotS novel, Mace Windu says he created it so he could channel his own darkness, channeling the opponents seems to simply be a side effect. ...Which is what differentiates the two forms. If Vaapad did not also tap an opponent's darkness, there would be no difference between it, and Juyo.

That's all I was trying to say. So if there was any miscommunication, I apologize.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'm not sure Juyo alone channels the user's darkness. Juyo doesn't channel the user's darkness per se. But it, like Vaapad, forces it's user to draw on a very deep well of emotions that "cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability".

That's one of the reasons why any Jedi (sans Mace) who has attempted to master Juyo/Vaapad, ultimately fell to the dark side.

If I recall correctly from Kotor 2, Juyo does indeed 'draw on a very deep well of emotions that "cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability"' due to it being the most aggressive lightsaber form out there. Its all about killing shit, a very un-jedi like attitude.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but he was force choking both of them simultaneously! And they culdnt break it!

Where is the point? Malak force stunned Revan, Carth and Bastilla simultaneously, which doesn't mean that he can do the job in a situation in which they would expect a force attack. And they couldn't break it in the five seconds he chokes them?



They were expecting that he delivers a force push while choking them? I don't think so. And I don't know if they had to put their powers together to blast him away. I'd suggest that Dooku would be able to do that on his own under normal circumstances, provided he has tossed some pretty heavy stuff around in the source material.



Since the battle droids don't have any resistance to that, I don't see the feat there. Ventress did the same to groups of stormtroopers, Mace to an army of battledroids, if you buy the action in the old CW cartoons.



Ventress is not capable of challenging Kenobi or Anakin on her own and walk out victorious, which pretty much each and every occassion she engages one of the dynamic duo shows. And I was merely suggesting, that they didn't have much of an option aside from controlled retreat, as the guy was as big as the corridor and spinning a double bladed lightsaber in front of him.

It just doesn't prove his superiority as a duellist / combatant in comparison to them. And I was talking about the real lightsaber part of that fight.



Dooku has destroyed them in AotC, dominated the confrontation in RotS not to mention his various engagement through the Clone Wars. He is, simple put, a far more capable combatant than Savage.



Erm, what?

Did you consider Dooku's TK showings through-out the mythos - outside of the stuff he does in the movies, which is already pretty impressive? I didn't see anything in that scene that Dooku couldn't have replicated.



The problem with this "boosts" is, that they are surges of rage that fade as fast as they come. Given that, utilizing such a "boost" Maul was almost capable of killing Sidious, I'd say that he might have been able to do the same under the same circumstances, yet, that kind of power would have faded away rather fast as well. And as we see Savage also just makes a rather close escape and is obviously injured / powered out after this. In a prolonged fight, he might still be overcome by each of the people he "owned" according to your view.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
That's the ancient Sith only, G. Dooku is, at best, a mildly skilled neophyte compared to their unholy glory.





Wouldn't want anyone to jump your shit.

Ragnos and Nihilus both make Dooku and Yoda look like infants just learning to roll on their side to avoid drowning in their own puke.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ragnos and Nihilus both make Dooku and Yoda look like infants just learning to roll on their side to avoid drowning in their own puke.

Don't forget Simus. Imagine the hilarity of Dooku surviving as a talking head after being beheaded by Anakin in RotS.

And then he could be on the Deathstar, giving Vader orders.

Originally posted by Eminence
?

Count Dooku makes muppets out of the animate with hilarious and incomparable frequency, tiger. Tholme and Sora Bulq (the legendary lightsaber instructor, Vaapad practitioner, and master of every classical and experimental lightsaber form known to the archives) attack: the former has his eye gouged out and a ceiling dropped on his head, the latter is knocked senseless with a casual one-handed burst of lightning.

And then converted.

I know. I have that comic. Dooku's awsome, you dnt need to convince me of that.

Originally posted by Eminence
Ventress, Naa'leth, Karis: despite shooting him in his sleep with a dart that stole his eyesight, these three were repeatedly tossed around and their assaults largely evaded until the man struck all three of them with a single barrage of lightning, pulled them into the air, and threw them out his goddamn window.

I know Dooku's awsome. Doesn't mean he's He-Man the most powerful man in the Universe, and never shall an opponent exist who will become more Powerful. Dooku sent 3 nightsisters flying off with his TK. I know, it was awsome. Well Savage sent 2 Jedi and 3 Destroyer Droids and a whole army of battle droids down in one force wave. You do the math of which feat was more impressive.

Originally posted by Eminence
Ventress, Opress: your apparent inability to grasp what's going on here notwithstanding

My inability? Great. Can we try discussing Savage's power level without the need for petty insults please. And you'll have to add my inability to the inability of the general audience for whom this episode was made, to grasp "whats really going on" As clearly only a Star Wars fan whose studied all the EU can tell us this.

, Originally posted by Eminence
Dooku was manhandling the duo before Opress lost his shit and tried to murder everyone. Opress spent the majority of that fight on his knees leaking smoke and Ventress - as was demonstrated immediately afterward - would have been eviscerated on her own. Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

I know what happened before his Power boost. Iv not once denied this. Although it was only Dooku's FL Savage could not handle. He actually disarmed Dooku in the close up fight kicking him to the floor.

But yeah his superior strength could not handle Dooku's FL. Thats clear.

Originally posted by Eminence
Obi-Wan, Anakin: he starts strangling Obi-Wan with his mind while sending Anakin sailing through the air with his foot* - without looking at him, mind you - then chucks Obi-Wan across the room before ripping a chunk of steel out of the wall and dropping it on him.

That was certainly Uber Skilfull. But... and its a big BUT could he TK push both of them across the room at the same time?? No. When he force pushed Obi-wan the first time, why didn't he force push Anakin with the same push?? Instead of having Anakin continue to driving him backwards. At what point did even Obi-Wan and Anakin together drive Savage backwards?? Didn't happen.


Originally posted by Eminence
Opress' sheer physicality and talent make him a warrior of considerable worth, but he is far too raw, inexperienced and brutish to pose a serious threat to the elite of his era.

You sure about this?? You realise thats not the end.. Season 4 is coming.. You honestly believe Dooku and Sidious are not going to be in the least bit worried about this guy??

Originally posted by Galan007
To be fair, Savage's power didn't appear to decrease in the slightest afte

Imo, it seemed more like a "so THIS is what I can do" moment, rather than a simple rage-induced temporary boost in power /shrug. But, again, the only way to know for sure is to wait for season 4.



This is what I think seems to be the situation as well.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And they couldn't break it in the five seconds he chokes them?

You dnt think 5 seconds is a lot for a force choke against 2 powerful opponents?



Originally posted by Borbarad
They were expecting that he delivers a force push while choking them? I don't think so.

What he should warn them the kind of force attack hes gna do next?? They both knew hes seriously powerful now and out to kill them both.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't think so. And I don't know if they had to put their powers together to blast him away. I'd suggest that Dooku would be able to do that on his own under normal circumstances, provided he has tossed some pretty heavy stuff around in the source material.

Heavy stuff is different to a guy whose just Force choked and tossed him around. So no im certainly not convinced of that. Either way, even their combined attack did not stop him.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Since the battle droids don't have any resistance to that, I don't see the feat there. Ventress did the same to groups of stormtroopers, Mace to an army of battledroids, if you buy the action in the old CW cartoons.

Except it wasnt just stormtroopers or battle droids. It was Anakin and Obi-Wan (which alone is work for Dooku) 3 Destroyer droids, (Iv so far not seen any Jedi capable of taking down 3 Destroyer droids with one force push), plus on top of that a whole load of battle droids.

No, as awsome as Dooku is Iv not seen anything to make me believe he could take down all that in on Force Wave. Neither him nor Mace Windu could do that. They would both struggle to just Force Push Obi-Wan and Anakin together to the floor.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Ventress is not capable of challenging Kenobi or Anakin on her own and walk out victorious, which pretty much each and every occassion she engages one of the dynamic duo shows.

Are you sure about this. Sidious never asked for Ventress to be assassinated before. This time he did, because he's felt how powerful she is growing. Still she's never best Anakin in Sabers and did not do so even in this episode. But she did however best Obi-Wan in this fight (even in the Saber fight). She kicked him to the floor disarming him while fending off Anakin.

The Force choke thing happened when she was cornered and disarmed and after Obi and Anakin already chose not to kill her. But it shows she is almost certainly better with the Force than either of these 2.




Originally posted by Borbarad
The problem with this "boosts" is, that they are surges of rage that fade as fast as they come.

Yeah but problem with this boost was, it didn't go. It lasted 3 fights, and we have no evidence to show it went.

Look I know Dooku's awsome and everything. He's powerful, skilled and smart.. Very smart. And with entire droid armies at his command, he was quite possibly the second most powerful guy in the galaxy.

But Savage is just a monster created by Nightsister Magic and then trained by the Sith. A monster whose gna provide a very interesting story during the Clone Wars season 4.

I'm going to make a point here: In a comic, you have no IDEA how easy combat was. You said "a casual one-hand burst of lightning" you have no idea how casual, how powerful, how sustained it was from a comic panel.

i'm all for calling it canon since he did it...

There's a shitload of inconsistencies when it comes to Force powers. They mysteriously scale down in magnitude when it's convenient to, or the Jedi suddenly forget they can grip objects beyond their reach. T-canon Mace pulling his Dragonball Z stunts and never doing them again? Big whoop.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You dnt think 5 seconds is a lot for a force choke against 2 powerful opponents?

No, I don't.
You see. None of the opponents even tried to counter the force choke with the force, which kind of undermines your effort to base any kind of judgement of Savages force abilities on this. They get chocked and thrown before one of them reacts. We've seen people in the KotoR games force stunning clearly more powerful opponents. It's rather hard to defend against that abilities, when you aren't prepared for such an attack.



And he utterly fails to kill either of them. They could have kept throwing him through the room for the next hours, but maybe they sensed the two Jedi coming and decided to depart, rather than stay there and deal with four (two Jedi, Savage, the respective other Dark Side user) opponents.



The same guy that Dooku has tossed around and electrocuted before and after? Sorry. That doesn't make sense.



Anakin and Obi-Wan are work for Dooku? I remember him force choking Kenobi while kicking Anakin into the next wall in RotS. He has casually owned Jedi Masters / other opponents with the force before. Where is your point? Dooku's TK showings totally eclipse that of Savage.



Watch the first 30 seconds of this:

_1ieRQ-4BB4

Dooku casually slaps those Clone Troopers aside, slams the ship door shut and throws the metal construction on the ship.

And Mace?

sNv9ULBagE8

The fun starts at around 3:10. And since you're so fond of force attacks, watch the seconds form 4:40 on, where Mace simply destroys seven regular battle droids, 2 super battle droids and 2 droidekas with a mere force push before he proceeds to crush that little tank coming at him. All of that without much effort, as it seems.

You were saying?




Yeah. Meaning what?
We had bounty Hunters overpowering Jedi for a brief amount of time (e.g. Cad Bane VS Obi-Wan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos), but that doesn't mean a person is more powerful than the ones temporarily defeated. And I'm pretty certain that Ventress is not stronger in the force or better in sabers than either Anakin or Kenobi.



Where did it last three fights? He gets angry, gets tossed aside by Dooku and Ventress, gets angry again when he attacks Anakin and Kenobi and gets angry one last time before unleashing the force wave at the droids right before his escape. When we see him arriving at his home afterwards, he doesn't seem to be in his top shape any longer, or is he? In fact, he collapses right on the spot.



See videos and other stuff above. Dooku and Mace aren't living legends among an order of legendary warriors without a reason. Those guys can kick some serious ass, if they are forced to.

Darth Maul would tear Oppress to pieces. Maul is a finely tuned killing machine with a saber. And don't forget that we don't know how powerful Maul really is because he rarely uses his force powers because (according to Lucas) Maul although a Sith has a high sense of honor and rather defeat you with a saber or by hand. In one of the last episodes that showed Maul and Oppress, Maul took Oppress down without even trying. Oppress may be physically stronger but as of now he is not stronger in the force or skill to truly compete with Maul or Dooku.

Originally posted by DjinnJoetunBaal
Darth Maul would tear Oppress to pieces.

In one of the last episodes that showed Maul and Oppress, Maul took Oppress down without even trying.

Doubt it. This thread is TPM Maul. It was CW Maul that stomped Opress. And even that was likely after studying his moves for a while first.

Originally posted by DjinnJoetunBaal
Oppress may be physically stronger but as of now he is not stronger in the force or skill to truly compete with Maul or Dooku.


Neither Opress or Maul are on Dooku's level. But I doubt he would laugh either of them off.