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Wondering what you guys think about him, he gets to heal minor wounds and some of his foce usage between each fight, no more than that.

The duellists are on their prime unless stated, it takes place is the room where Dooku fought Yoda on AotC.


1) TPM Obi-Wan & TPM Qui-Gon
2) Kit Fisto
3) AotC Obi-Wan & AotC Anakin
4) ROTS Anakin (Light Side)
5) Darth Maul & Asajj Ventress

No rest then I think he's going down at Fisto. His younger self and Qui-Gon can put up a good enough fight for Kit to finish him off. If not, then 3 he stops.

Yeah, this is pretty vicious. While he could very likely destroy his younger self, Obi and Qui-Gon are a fairly solid team. Then comes Kit Fisto who was near to Obi-Wan's level in any case and perhaps more aggressive, and then AotC crew who would be difficult if not improbable to beat.

I see. What if he had full rests between each fight, any opinions on how far he would go?

Originally posted by MindTricker
I see. What if he had full rests between each fight, any opinions on how far he would go?

Then RotS Anakin ends Kenobi.

Originally posted by MindTricker
I see. What if he had full rests between each fight, any opinions on how far he would go? I think he could get to #4 (before dying rather quickly), but it wouldn't be easy. 1-3 would all give him a very tough fight.

Originally posted by MindTricker
I see. What if he had full rests between each fight, any opinions on how far he would go? They'd all give him hell, Kit especially. The one I can really see beating him is Maul and Ventress. Asajj has given him good fights before, and with Maul's aggressiveness combined, I feel him losing.

Since Kenobi's style is defensive and opportunistic in nature, he excels at one versus one when he can make use of the backdrop or superb defense. Against two it becomes more difficult. He can only hope to use their own incongruent styles against them, and with the first two groups, that's difficult because they already mesh. Maul and Ventress, while not exactly tag team buddies, are each a handful in and of themselves. Obi can only hope to keep their dual blades clashing too close for comfort between them to come out ahead.

I think he could in a prolonged duel oust Kit, but if this is ROTS Anakin in that one glorified moment where he rolled a natural twenty and pwned Dooku, how can we argue that as a basis for an entire duel?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No rest then I think he's going down at Fisto. His younger self and Qui-Gon can put up a good enough fight for Kit to finish him off. If not, then 3 he stops.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Maul and Ventress, while not exactly tag team buddies, are each a handful in and of themselves. Obi can only hope to keep their dual blades clashing too close for comfort between them to come out ahead. Plus, it was specifically stated that Juyo (which Maul excels at) can penetrate even the best of defenses.

^ Yep stated in TFU novel. That a Juyo practitoner would eventually get past the defences of a Soresu practioner.

Also seeing the number of times Ventress has disarmed Obi-Wan in Clone Wars, Im beginning to wonder if Soresu having an impenetrable defence is a tag bit over rating it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Yep stated in TFU novel. That a Juyo practitoner would eventually get past the defences of a Soresu practioner.

Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have the quote on hand?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also seeing the number of times Ventress has disarmed Obi-Wan in Clone Wars, Im beginning to wonder if Soresu having an impenetrable defence is a tag bit over rating it.

Same here.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have the quote on hand?



Will find it when I get home. But if your wondering if it was 3rd person narrative, then yes it may have been Starkillers thoughts.

TFU Chapter 21 pg.178:

"Blue blocked red in a spray of energy. The apprentice struck again, higher this time, a deceptively loose blow that hid deadly subtleties beneath its wide swing. The Jedi blocked it, too; just. Soresu was a defensive fighting style well suited to the close confines of the hut, but it wouldn't last forever against the malignant grace of Juyo."

Actually doesn't sound like 3rd person narrative to me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
TFU Chapter 21 pg.178:

"Blue blocked red in a spray of energy. The apprentice struck again, higher this time, a deceptively loose blow that hid deadly subtleties beneath its wide swing. The Jedi blocked it, too; just. Soresu was a defensive fighting style well suited to the close confines of the hut, but it wouldn't last forever against the malignant grace of Juyo."

Actually doesn't sound like 3rd person narrative to me.

Not sure if it is or not. Thanks for the quote though.

" attacks can eviscerate defenses -- even the blocks of a Form III master":
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/121/00996.jpg/

-A Manual For Students of the Force

While turtling is unhealthy against almost any opponent (keep in mind that Obi-Wan, the highest Soresu practitioner in the movies, is routinely put on his toes by masters of differing forms) it doesn't flat out say Juyo is going to win against Soresu every time.

Case in point - Grievous was programmed to know Juyo, yet he did not implement it in a way which would immediately destroy Obi-Wan. Additionally, Anakin's Djem So was offensive based, employing vicious overhead and side to side swings, but this was not enough to destroy Kenobi, meaning that the major strengths of Juyo don't necessarily translate into a win. If anything, the only true strength Juyo possesses is its requirements to train (Juyo practitioners know most of the other forms very well) and its inherent unpredictability. It is this latter element which could possibly make a case for Juyo > Soresu as opposed to other traits which are shared with other forms.

To defend Obi, Soresu's true strength appears to lie in a combination of blurring defensive swordplay and movement, along with opportunistic counters when appropriate, not outright turtling a more aggressive opponent. Tiring out the foe before they box you in and murder you is the preferred method.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
While turtling is unhealthy against almost any opponent (keep in mind that Obi-Wan, the highest Soresu practitioner in the movies, is routinely put on his toes by masters of differing forms) it doesn't flat out say Juyo is going to win against Soresu every time.

Case in point - Grievous was programmed to know Juyo, yet he did not implement it in a way which would immediately destroy Obi-Wan. It was never stated that Grievous was a high level master of Juyo - ie. his skill level with that particular form likely wasn't on par with someone like Maul. Additionally (and most importantly), I don't believe it was ever stated that GG was employing Juyo against Kenobi in their few-second-long 'battle'.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Anakin's Djem So was offensive based, employing vicious overhead and side to side swings, but this was not enough to destroy Kenobi, meaning that the major strengths of Juyo don't necessarily translate into a win. Djem So =/= Juyo. They are two completely different forms that employ two completely different methodologies and styles.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If anything, the only true strength Juyo possesses is its requirements to train (Juyo practitioners know most of the other forms very well) and its inherent unpredictability. It is this latter element which could possibly make a case for Juyo > Soresu as opposed to other traits which are shared with other forms. Meh, there are at least two different sources which state that Juyo can break through Soresu's defenses. I wouldn't credit that solely to the form's inherent unpredictability. /shrug

This conversation is retarded and I am suppressing it now before it spreads like a fire.

The style is irrelevant, only the user's skill matters in a fight.

I guess the conversations really center on whether or not Kenobi's saber defenses are impregnable, as is the general consensus, or so it seems. DP makes a valid observation though; Kenobi has been disarmed several times on the Clone Wars show, AND had his defenses breached numerous times. This kind of throws one big assed wrench into the 'Kenobi has impenetrable defenses' machine.

Anyone's defenses are "impenetrable" when they fight someone who is less skilled than them.

Obi-Wan's defenses have been penetrated by people who were fighting better than him, for whatever reason.

The styles they used weren't factors.

Bingo. Is Kenobi is fighting a superior duelist the guy will be able to penetrate his defenses.

And his defenses have been breached by Ventress and Dooku on several occasions. Typically when we discuss Kenobi vs ______, his "impenetrable" defenses are brought up. I think the point centers on the fact that the line of thinking regarding his saber skills needs to be adjusted somewhat. For instance, Kenobi vs Windu for instance; There were many who argued that because of Kenobi's Soresu, Windu would not be able to penetrate his defenses. Well, if his duels with Ventress tell us anything, it's that he has been FAR too overated in this area.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Anyone's defenses are "impenetrable" when they fight someone who is less skilled than them.

Obi-Wan's defenses have been penetrated by people who were fighting better than him, for whatever reason.

The styles they used weren't factors. Agreed. I think what was being argued is that if you have a master of Soresu and a master of Juyo (both near the same level), the latter will be able to breach the defenses of the former. That is something that certainly cannot be said about every form.

Of course Power, Connection to the Force, and Level of Mastery within the chosen form makes a huge difference. Yoda's Ataro will of course get past Obi-Wan's defences.

But the style will make a difference when we are considering 2 duelists on a similar power/mastery level.

In those cases Juyo/Vapaad (and Makashi for that matter) are simply better fencing styles than Soresu, and should hold the advantage in a Saber duel.

Rots Kenobi goes down at 2, if not then definitely at 3.

Oh, and agreed on Soresu/Juyo/other forms debate.
The master of the form makes the difference, not the form itself.
It is only when same level practitioners of different lightsaber forms fight that the form really matters.

If Obi Wan has no rest then he definately goes down at Kit Fisto. Kit would give even a fully rejuvenated Obi Wan a very good fight.

Im not even convinced he gets through 1..

Qui-Gon was no pushover. People tend to think of him as one because he fought Maul and got killed.

But loosing to a guy chosen and trained by Sidious is nothing to be ashamed of.

He was actually said to have been one of the best swordsmen of his era. An era that included Yoda, Dooku, Mace, Plo Koon, Fisto e.t.c.

And I believe in the novel it is stated his lightsaber instructor believed Qui-Gon to be the best swordsman he trained in over 200 years.

Also young Obi-Wan was still a force to be reckoned with. Though not yet Qui-Gon's equal, his training was complete and he clearly put up a decent brawl against a Sith lord.

And Darth Maul had a dual saber designed to take on multiple opponents. Im not sure how well Obi-Wan with his single blade and defensive style will hold against 2 formidable Jedi.

TPM Qui-Gon was a practitioner of Ataru - a very physically intensive and tiring form (especially for an older man.) Imo, he'd be worn out before he ever put a dent in RotS Kenobi's defenses... And I personally don't think TPM Obi-Wan's skills were refined enough to breach said defenses either.

But it would still be a very good fight regardless.

Originally posted by Galan007
TPM Qui-Gon was a practitioner of Ataru - a very physically intensive and tiring form (especially for an older man.) Imo, he'd be worn out before he ever put a dent in RotS Kenobi's defenses... And I personally don't think TPM Obi-Wan's skills were refined enough to breach said defenses either.

But it would still be a very good fight regardless.

We've discussed the fact that Kenobi's defenses have been FAR overated in this forum. I see no reason why Qui-Gon would not (absolutely) be able to penetrate Kenobi's defense or at the very least disarm him, given Kenobi's track record against Ventress.

Considering Ventress would wipe the floor with Qui-Gon, I'm going to have to disagree with that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering Ventress would wipe the floor with Qui-Gon, I'm going to have to disagree with that. This.

Also, TCW Kenobi =/= RotS Kenobi. There may not be much of a time gap between the two, but there is a time gap none the less.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering Ventress would wipe the floor with Qui-Gon, I'm going to have to disagree with that.


Ah but its not just Qui-Gon. Its Qui-Gon plus TPM Obi-Wan.

Im not convinced of Obi-Wan's defences with one lightsaber being uber enough to hold off 2 jedi. Especially not when one of those Jedi is considered one of the best swordsmen of TPM era.

Originally posted by Galan007
This.

Also, TCW Kenobi =/= RotS Kenobi. There may not be much of a time gap between the two, but there is a time gap none the less.

Any proof of a significant difference??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Any proof of a significant difference??

Not likely

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Any proof of a significant difference?? His defenses not being overwhelmed (in sabers) by the likes of Dooku, Grievous, and Anakin during RotS?

Also, during the yearS-long span in which The Clone Wars took place, Kenobi was almost continuously engaging in lightsaber combat. If you are constantly utilizing a particular form, it stands to reason that your overall prowess with that form would increase.

Originally posted by Galan007
His defenses not being overwhelmed (in sabers) by the likes of Dooku, Grievous, and Anakin during RotS?

Dooku didnt fight him in Sabers very long at all, and was mostly doing so at the same time he was fighting off Anakin.

Beating Greivous in a duel does not make him any better CW Kit Fisto.

As for Anakin, we've been through this time and again, he wasn't on form in that fight. Far from it. Plus Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was a very different fight. They knew each others moves inside out, so actually neither of them could get through each other's defences.

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, during the yearS-long span in which The Clone Wars took place, Kenobi was almost continuously engaging in lightsaber combat. If you are constantly utilizing a particular form, it stands to reason that your overall prowess with that form would increase.

Considering Anakin has his scar, CW series has to be in the last year of the Clone Wars.

Add this to the fact that Obi-Wan is already on the council, I dnt think theres really much room for significant improvement.

There might have been, but I think proof is required before we believe that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Any proof of a significant difference??

As of AOTC he used Ataru. As of ROTS he is the greatest master of Soresu in the Jedi Order. As well as his constant fighting in the CW's and the fact that Dooku flat out is surprised at his prowess in ROTS as opposed to the way he toyed with him in AOTC.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku didnt fight him in Sabers very long at all, and was mostly doing so at the same time he was fighting off Anakin.

Beating Greivous in a duel does not make him any better CW Kit Fisto.

As for Anakin, we've been through this time and again, he wasn't on form in that fight. Far from it. Plus Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was a very different fight. They knew each others moves inside out, so actually neither of them could get through each other's defences. Love the low-balling here. srsly

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Considering Anakin has his scar, CW series has to be in the last year of the Clone Wars. Anakin got his scar during the last year of The Clone Wars? Nah.

Fact is, there are quite a few continuity errors regarding when TCW takes place - but from what I've read, it is supposed to be set in 21 BBY (so the year after AotC concluded.) Thus there is currently a two year gap between the animated show, and the RotS film.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Add this to the fact that Obi-Wan is already on the council, I dnt think theres really much room for significant improvement.

There might have been, but I think proof is required before we believe that. Like I said: Dooku didn't disarm him, Grievous didn't disarm him, and Anakin didn't disarm him (all of whom are =/> Asajj in the saber department.) I'm not saying Kenobi has a defense that just cannot be breached (obviously it can) - but making remarks like, "TCW Kenobi was disarmed, therefore RotS Kenobi would be disarmed just as easily" is kind of faulty, all things (ie. time gaps) considered. Imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of AOTC he used Ataru. As of ROTS he is the greatest master of Soresu in the Jedi Order. As well as his constant fighting in the CW's and the fact that Dooku flat out is surprised at his prowess in ROTS as opposed to the way he toyed with him in AOTC.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of AOTC he used Ataru. As of ROTS he is the greatest master of Soresu in the Jedi Order. As well as his constant fighting in the CW's and the fact that Dooku flat out is surprised at his prowess in ROTS as opposed to the way he toyed with him in AOTC.

Uhm... NO! As of TPM, he used Ataru... as of AotC, he used Soresu.

Actually, he kinda did.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm... NO! As of TPM, he used Ataru... as of AotC, he used Soresu. "Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust" - Attack of the Clones.

Slashes and chops are not part of Form III combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, he kinda did. Disarm him in sabers only? No, he did not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of AOTC he used Ataru. As of ROTS he is the greatest master of Soresu in the Jedi Order. As well as his constant fighting in the CW's and the fact that Dooku flat out is surprised at his prowess in ROTS as opposed to the way he toyed with him in AOTC.

He might have attacked Dooku with Ataru but come on his main form had to be soresu.. Unless your implying that in 3 years of soresu he became the ultimate master..

As for him being the ultimate master of soresu, that Mace's opinion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He might have attacked Dooku with Ataru but come on his main form had to be soresu.. Unless your implying that in 3 years of soresu he became the ultimate master..

As for him being the ultimate master of soresu, that Mace's opinion.

And Mace is ALWAYS giving high praise to his contemporaries.

Originally posted by Galan007
Love the low-balling here. srsly




LOL @ Low- balling.. He never fought Dooku one one one. Even two on one it was for hardly a few seconds.

Loads of Jedi council members can beat GG.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He might have attacked Dooku with Ataru but come on his main form had to be soresu.. Unless your implying that in 3 years of soresu he became the ultimate master..

As for him being the ultimate master of soresu, that Mace's opinion. I'm sure he had some knowledge of Soresu during AotC, but it obviously wasn't his form of choice. And in the RotS novelization, Dooku notes that Kenobi had become a master of Soresu - implying that he wasn't in their last battle.

Do you know of a Jedi whose prowess with Soresu was better than Kenobi's? If not, then Mace's praise was certainly warranted.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL @ Low- balling.. He never fought Dooku one one one. Even two on one it was for hardly a few seconds. It was mentioned in the novelization that Dooku essentially came to the realization that trying to beat Kenobi saber to saber was almost pointless - his Soresu presented too good of a defense. That's why he opted to use force attacks.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust" - Attack of the Clones.

Slashes and chops are not part of Form III combat.

Disarm him in sabers only? No, he did not.

Just because he embraced Soresu doesn't mean he's incapable of slashing and chopping. Don't let fighting form suddenly become a list of moves a la Street Fighter.

Obi-Wan clearly adopted Soresu after noticing Ataru's lack of defense after Qui-Gon was killed, but he was capable of offensive maneuvering when possible. It simply wasn't in line with Soresu to go offensive all the time.

As if a saber style strictly forbade its user from using anything but a specific list of movements.


As I watched Obi-Wan through The Clone Wars, I was always a little surprised to see just how many offensive slashes and thrusts the "defensive prodigy" made.

when QGJ can put out over 20 strikes a second, he will have a chance to overwhelm kenobi's defenses.

Nonononono. No.

At twenty strikes per second Kenobi's defenses were "overloaded." Okay? Twenty = overload. More than twenty = more than necessary for overload.

People have abused that figure since 2005. Enough.

*Pikaaaaa-CHUUUUU!!!*

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sure he had some knowledge of Soresu during AotC, but it obviously wasn't his form of choice. And in the RotS novelization, Dooku notes that Kenobi had become a master of Soresu - implying that he wasn't in their last battle.

I highly doubt Kenobi went from having "some knowledge" in AOTC and not even being a Master of the Form, to 3 years later being the ultimate master of the from. Very very unlikely.

Also Dooku not knowing the Forms of Anakin or Kenobi makes no sense now. He's fought Anakin twice now in CW plus once in AOTC. Are we really supposed to believe those 3 times he fought Dooku with Shien while he was secretly mastering Djem So??

That whole extract might not be canon now. Not to mention that fight in the movie was always a heck of a lot longer than what we see in the movie.

Originally posted by Galan007
Do you know of a Jedi whose prowess with Soresu was better than Kenobi's? If not, then Mace's praise was certainly warranted.

Not really. Im sure Kenobi was a high level master. But even if he was like one of the top 10 Soresu practitoners in the galaxy, Mace or Yoda would probably call him "The Master" because they think highly of him as a Jedi. Its an opinion. Thats all.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was mentioned in the novelization that Dooku essentially came to the realization that trying to beat Kenobi saber to saber was almost pointless - his Soresu presented too good of a defense. That's why he opted to use force attacks.

I remember, but actually if you want to go by the novel he took Kenobi out with a kick to the face. Where was his amazing defence then? And that while fighting ROTS Anakin?! Lol

Now that I think about it, Ventress also diarmed Obi-Wan with a kick in CW..

Originally posted by truejedi
when QGJ can put out over 20 strikes a second, he will have a chance to overwhelm kenobi's defenses.

Firstly its QGJ plus young Obi-Wan. Secondly I doubt Ventress was striking 20 times a second BOTH times she's disarmed Obi-Wan.

We're not saying he had no knowledge of it, but he certainly wasn't a master of it, and he didn't use it against Dooku. And you forget that he was in constant warfare in between those periods. He had to vasly improve just to survive.

Not to mention that Dooku says quite clearly in the novel 'Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.' 'Become', not 'slightly improved with it.'



Yes.



Bullshit. If there was someone better than Kenobi they would have sent him after Grievous. They're not going to rest the fate of teh galaxy on him just to boost his ego.

To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.



I agree. Getting taken down by Counter Motherfvcking Dooku is really bad form.



CW /=/ ROTS.



Young Obi-Wan is no match for his older, vastly more skilled counterpart. He's a non-issue.


Theres a scene in I think Labyrinth of Evil where he handily demonstrates his skill with the form by singlehandedly defending against some 50-100 battle droids at once and defeating them all merely with deflections. An unprecidented defense.

facepalm

well Faunus, what is the number before that? 19? 19 strokes a second is pretty darn good too, and i'm pretty sure QGJ can't do that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We're not saying he had no knowledge of it, but he certainly wasn't a master of it, and he didn't use it against Dooku. And you forget that he was in constant warfare in between those periods. He had to vasly improve just to survive.

Why was he called a Master in AOTC if he had not even masterted a single form yet? Or was he not a Jedi Master yet?

And I know he was fighting in a 3 year war, but still its very unlikely he went from just being proficient in a form to being the Ultimate Master in just 3 years. War or not, that seems highly unlikely.

Either way by CW series he should already be a High Level Master of the form, and yet still gets disarmed by a good enough opponent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to mention that Dooku says quite clearly in the novel 'Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.' 'Become', not 'slightly improved with it.'

Yeah the same Dooku who after 3 fights hasn't worked out what form Anakin uses yet. That whole part of the novel has clearly been written off by CW.




Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullshit. If there was someone better than Kenobi they would have sent him after Grievous. They're not going to rest the fate of teh galaxy on him just to boost his ego.

Mind the language young one. Theres plenty of Jedi that can beat GG in a fight. The Council agreed to send their most "cunning and tenacious warrior" to get Grievous. That was Kenobi. If it was just about swordsmanship they could have just as easily sent Kit Fisto whose proven himself a vastly superior swordsman to GG already.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.

Mace is what?! A master of soresu?? Proof please. In Dark Rendezvous theres a quote that says Anakin or Mace would get easily frustrated with a style as defensive as Soresu.

Mace's opinion is also that Anakin maybe stronger than Yoda. He is flawed. Im sure Obi-Wan is one of the best Soresu users, but being The Best, is an opinion of someone who thinks very highly of him, and is his fellow Jedi Council member. So you cant tell me theres no room for being biased there.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree. Getting taken down by Counter Motherfvcking Dooku is really bad form.

The argument was that according to the novel Kenobi's defence was too good for Dooku to take down without a Force attack.



Originally posted by Nephthys
CW /=/ ROTS.

And yet he should be close to his ROTS by now in CW. This whole debate was about providing proof that Kenobi has "Significantly" improved by ROTS from CW.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Young Obi-Wan is no match for his older, vastly more skilled counterpart. He's a non-issue.

A non-issue while fighting off Qui-Gon?! Lol I doubt it. Whats he gna do dipsose of him easily with a flick of the wrist like Dooku did to ROTS Kenobi? How he gna be a Non-Issue? He was an issue to a very well trained Sith Lord.

He began using Soresu after that, so theres a good chance he was at the peak of his Ataru at around the time of TPM. He will be an issue.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a scene in I think Labyrinth of Evil where he handily demonstrates his skill with the form by singlehandedly defending against some 50-100 battle droids at once and defeating them all merely with deflections. An unprecidented defense.

Thats cool. But Id hope any Council memeber could do something similar. Still doesnt show Ventress couldn't still beat him at that point.

Originally posted by truejedi
well Faunus, what is the number before that? 19? 19 strokes a second is pretty darn good too, and i'm pretty sure QGJ can't do that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Firstly its QGJ plus young Obi-Wan. Secondly I doubt Ventress was striking 20 times a second BOTH times she's disarmed Obi-Wan.

You don't have to be a lightsaber master to be a Jedi Master.



I guess you're unaware of the speed at which Force users can learn things in this universe. Jaden Korr, Kyle Katarn, Bane, the list goes on.



Er, why?



No it hasn't. Anakin was secretly training his Djem So. Simple.



No.



Mace, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Kenobi and Anakin. Thats 5.

It doesn't seem like they could just send anyone to me.



The novel specifically mentions they were keeping Jedi on Coruscant in case Palpatine started trouble. Also Kit Fisto himself agreed to send Kenobi, so clearly he thinks he's the better choice.



Yeah, I made that part up. I was rather hoping you wouldn't ask me to elaborate.

He is still a master of several forms and creator of his own and one of the best lightsaber duelists in the mythos. He's still an expert on the subject.



Quote? And Anakin may be stronger than Yoda. The novel flat out says he's the fastest Jedi alive and when he got serious he casually pwned Dooku, something not even Yoda could do. Is just that hes a moron who can't realsie his potential.



Well I am. Theres a reason he thinks highly of him.



Your point is still invalid. The novel contradicts the movie here, so he didn't get taken out with a boot to the face.

Also you'll notice that twice he relies on the Force to take out Kenobi.

V6_dxW4NpDU



I thought it was about that he had significatly improved from AOTC/TPM. Clone Wars Obi-Wan isn't in this thread.



He was when fighting Maul.



http://images.wikia.com/es.starwars/images/7/7d/Duel_on_Tatooine_%2828Imperial_era%2929.jpg

Maybe.



No he wasn't.



No he didn't, as Galen's quote proves:

"Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust" - Attack of the Clones.



They can't.

09n0qd_n4c0

0.55



Ventress is a master swordsman. She's beaten Kit Fisto before. Losing to her is no shame.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it hasn't. Anakin was secretly training his Djem So. Simple.

LOL


Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Kenobi and Anakin. Thats 5.

Urm some random Jedi named Koth. Which means guys like Agen Kolar and Tiin could defo take him too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I am. Theres a reason he thinks highly of him.

His Cunning, his tenaciousness, his Wisdom?? Or maybe the reason he doesn't think much of Skywalker i.e. He trusts Kenobi. Seriously there could be a million reasons for Mace to be biased. His opinion is not the all and end all.

"I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing" Mace TPM.

"You know my lady Count Dooku was once one of us. Its not in his character" Mace AOTC.

Both times Mace's opinon. Both times WRONG!


Originally posted by Nephthys
Also you'll notice that twice he relies on the Force to take out Kenobi.

For GOD's Sake, he was fighting Anakin at the same time. The fact that he was matching them both Id say is a win for Dooku in Sabers right there!


Originally posted by Nephthys
He was when fighting Maul.

If he was a non-factor when fighting Maul, the whole fight wouldn't have lasted a minute.



Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't, as Galen's quote proves:


LOL.. So he apparently cant even master One form in like 20 years of training, and then you expect me to believe that in the next 3 years he has become THE Ultimate Master of a completely different form! LOL

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can't.

You just posted me Order 66 as proof that Kenobi is better than Ki-Adi-Mundi!!!!

And people say Im low-balling!


Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress is a master swordsman. She's beaten Kit Fisto before. Losing to her is no shame.

Cool. Im not really sure what we're debating then. If Ventress can beat him, then he's not in the league of Mace or Dooku in Sabers and his defences are not impenetrable. End Of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm some random Jedi named Koth.

facepalm

Originally posted by Nephthys
To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.

What? Where do you come up with this? High end master of multiple forms doesn't mean master of Soresu. Multiple = 2 or more. Last time I checked, there were 7 main styles. Mace could have been a master of Ataru (likely given that Vaapad includes advanced spinning and leaping maneuvers), Djem So, Shii-Cho, Niman (possible due to Mace's masterful use of Jar'kai' in some of his duels), or even Makashi (given his sparring sessions w/ Dooku - though there is no evidence of this that I'm aware of). So again, how did you come up w/ Mace being a Soresu master? That's a new one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I made that part up. I was rather hoping you wouldn't ask me to elaborate.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Errr, yeah I read the after the fact -

I noticed you didn't reply to half my points. Bad boy.



Yup, the truth is pretty funny.



You mean Jedi Council Member Eeth Koth? Yeah, random as shit.

He defeated Greivous with the Force, and was forced on the defensive throughout their exchange.



Nope!



Which clearly Kenobi demonstrated when he... leapt into a ring of battle droids and challenged Grievous to one-on-one combat. Whoops.



Both things Windu could not have made educated guesses on. The Sith had been silent for a millennia, no reason to beleive they were back, especially with the Jedi so strong. And he couldn't of possibly have known Dooku had fallen.

On the matter of lightsaber techniques however, he is an expert, displaying enough technical proficientcy to completely invent his own Form. His words can be trusted.



As the novel points out he was seriously struggling to match them both. And again, Dooku is veeery much >>>>>>>>> Qui-Gon.



And you base this on?




Years he spent training Anakin. During peacetime. So, yes, thats exactly what I expect you to believe.



You said any Council member. I gave you any Council member.



Well we're not talking about Mace or Dooku are we? We're talking about effing Qui-Gon Jinn. Noone ever claimed his defences were impenetrable, but he is the best defensive fighter in the mythos as of ROTS.

Originally posted by ares834
facepalm

Was being a bit sarcastic in case you didn't notice. But the point is there are fair few Jedi who can take Grievous. The CW has made that clear.

Or are you gna argue that Koth >/= Kolar and Tiin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I noticed you didn't reply to half my points. Bad boy.

Tryin to keep things shortish and to the point without repeating myself. Not avoiding you Lol


Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean Jedi Council Member Eeth Koth? Yeah, random as shit.

He defeated Greivous with the Force, and was forced on the defensive throughout their exchange.

Since when was Koth a match for Agen Kolar or Sasee Tiin?? Force or not he defeated GG. Theres a fair few Jedi who can defeat GG.

If he can be defeated via Force attack by the likes of Koth, then it again makes the reasoning of sending Kenobi due to his ultimate mastery of Soresu kind of moot.

So lets see the list is so far Yoda, Mace, Kenobi, Skywalker, Fisto, Koth and almost definetely Kolar and Tiin. Im sure that list will still grow as well.

But I will give you the fact that during CW we've only seen Fisto beat GG in Sabers alone (I think).. But that still doesn't put ROTS Kenobi even above CW Fisto going by the GG feat.

So you guys have to bring more to the table than his defeat of GG. Capiche?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Which clearly Kenobi demonstrated when he... leapt into a ring of battle droids and challenged Grievous to one-on-one combat. Whoops.

Mace going on about how great Kenobi is obviously gave him a big head!



Originally posted by Nephthys
Both things Windu could not have made educated guesses on. The Sith had been silent for a millennia, no reason to beleive they were back, especially with the Jedi so strong. And he couldn't of possibly have known Dooku had fallen.

Shows hes fallible. He knew Dooku quite well, and was also aware of the Dark Side growing in power. And the guy is Head of the Council, so he should have some kind of expertise in these matters.


Originally posted by Nephthys
As the novel points out he was seriously struggling to match them both.

Mainly due to Anakin. Kenobi was not a threat on his own. And the seriously struggling against both is also contradicting the movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And again, Dooku is veeery much >>>>>>>>> Qui-Gon.

Irrelevant. Dooku had to take on both Kenobi AND Anakin, the latter who defeated Dooku by himself.

Whilst this fight is ROTS Kenobi vs Qui-Gon with help from young Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by Nephthys
And you base this on?



Based on Maul being able to defeat QGJ in under a minute. So if Kenobi was a non factor then.......

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Just because he embraced Soresu doesn't mean he's incapable of slashing and chopping. Don't let fighting form suddenly become a list of moves a la Street Fighter.

Obi-Wan clearly adopted Soresu after noticing Ataru's lack of defense after Qui-Gon was killed, but he was capable of offensive maneuvering when possible. It simply wasn't in line with Soresu to go offensive all the time. Point was: the AotC novelization makes it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu vs. Dooku, nor was he a master of it (as he'd become by the time RotS rolled around.)

Originally posted by Nephthys
We're not saying he had no knowledge of it, but he certainly wasn't a master of it, and he didn't use it against Dooku. And you forget that he was in constant warfare in between those periods. He had to vasly improve just to survive.

Not to mention that Dooku says quite clearly in the novel 'Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.' 'Become', not 'slightly improved with it.'



Yes.



Bullshit. If there was someone better than Kenobi they would have sent him after Grievous. They're not going to rest the fate of teh galaxy on him just to boost his ego.

To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.



I agree. Getting taken down by Counter Motherfvcking Dooku is really bad form.



CW /=/ ROTS.



Young Obi-Wan is no match for his older, vastly more skilled counterpart. He's a non-issue.


Theres a scene in I think Labyrinth of Evil where he handily demonstrates his skill with the form by singlehandedly defending against some 50-100 battle droids at once and defeating them all merely with deflections. An unprecidented defense.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mainly due to Anakin. Kenobi was not a threat on his own. And the seriously struggling against both is also contradicting the movie. Anakin was the bigger threat, I'll give you that. However, Dooku specifically noted in the novelization that Obi-Wan, on his own, was a threat due to the defense his Soresu offered - which, again, is why Dooku used force attacks to subdue him, as opposed to overwhelming him in sabers.

Ummm, yeah that's not impossible at all. In fact, it is very likely. Three years is a lot of time to master a form you are already familiar with. Most jedi learn elements of soresu at a young age to be able to defend against blasters and such. Kenobi just happened to be better than most in this particular area. He was a natural.

Originally posted by Galan007
Point was: the AotC novelization makes it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu vs. Dooku, nor was he a master of it (as he'd become by the time RotS rolled around.)

I won't say Kenobi was a Soresu master at this point because that's clearly wrong, but he had spent a decade training in it, which is the very definition of proficient. In any case, it's not "blatantly clear" that people using saber like weapons cut and slash side to side suddenly are incapable of using a defensive-minded philosophy which is about movements which protect the body from exposure to gunfire and swordswipes.

Unless you have a direct and conclusive statement from the novel that Obi-Wan was not using Soresu, this is insufficient. Secondly, the original Fightsaber article was developed based on live-action examination from AotC, meaning the idea of forms was not even on paper when Salvatore wrote the book.

So I think I just answered for you. The point is, Salvatore's writing does not conclusively prove Obi-Wan had abandoned Soresu. And other sources have indicated that Obi-Wan knew Ataru so he was clearly not a one-trick pony. He also knew Sokan; does this make his defensive philosophy invalid?





But the novelization is utter garbage when it comes to examining the fights. The on-screen fights tell the purest story of the fight as it canonically happened. The point is, Kenobi could not threaten Dooku with his fighting style and Dooku regularly removed him from the fight because he wanted to piss Skywalker off. The idea that Soresu suddenly became too much for a Makashi master is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin was the bigger threat, I'll give you that. However, Dooku specifically noted in the novelization that Obi-Wan, on his own, was a threat due to the defense his Soresu offered - which, again, is why Dooku used force attacks to subdue him, as opposed to overwhelming him in sabers.

You see your taking parts of the novel (Dooku not dare striking through Obi-Wan's defences), and then parts of the movie (Casual Force attacks on Obi-Wan) and making your own conclusion, that Dooku HAD to use the Force on Obi-Wan.

Well the same novel that says Dooku dared not strike on Obi-Wan, has Dooku knocking Obi-Wan Out with a Kick to the face. So even from the Novel's point of view, the only reason he did not dare strike against Obi-Wan Defences, is because that would be suicide while he had a "Destroyer Droid with a lightsaber" on his case. Nothing in the novel suggested Dooku would have had even the slightest difficulty if he just tackled Obi-Wan by himself (which he never once had a chance to do in ROTS).

Now I knw your gna say, but the movie shows he didnt take out Obi-Wan with a kick.. Well the same movie never once showed Dooku struggling in the slightest against Obi-Wan, so the point is moot.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ummm, yeah that's not impossible at all. In fact, it is very likely. Three years is a lot of time to master a form you are already familiar with. Most jedi learn elements of soresu at a young age to be able to defend against blasters and such. Kenobi just happened to be better than most in this particular area. He was a natural.

Its possible if he was already practising Soresu. These guys are trying to claim he didnt start using Soresu until after AOTC, and then in just 3 years he did not only master it, but became THE Master of it.

Very hard to believe a guy JUST Using Ataru for 20 years, but never managed to become a Master of that form over such a long period, suddenly in just 3 years he becomes THE Master of a completely new form.

The fact that everyone learns basics of Soresu makes little difference IMO.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I won't say Kenobi was a Soresu master at this point because that's clearly wrong, but he had spent a decade training in it, which is the very definition of proficient. In any case, it's not "blatantly clear" that people using saber like weapons cut and slash side to side suddenly are incapable of using a defensive-minded philosophy which is about movements which protect the body from exposure to gunfire and swordswipes.

Unless you have a direct and conclusive statement from the novel that Obi-Wan was not using Soresu, this is insufficient. Secondly, the original Fightsaber article was developed based on live-action examination from AotC, meaning the idea of forms was not even on paper when Salvatore wrote the book.

So I think I just answered for you. The point is, Salvatore's writing does not conclusively prove Obi-Wan had abandoned Soresu. And other sources have indicated that Obi-Wan knew Ataru so he was clearly not a one-trick pony. He also knew Sokan; does this make his defensive philosophy invalid?Huh? I've already acknowledged that Kenobi knew Soresu quite well - he simply wasn't a "master" of it during AotC.

Additionally, the novelization does make it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu against Dooku. His entire strategy in that fight relied almost exclusively on delivering a constant offense - the polar opposite of Soresu, which relies solely on defense.

That much really can't be argued, imo.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But the novelization is utter garbage when it comes to examining the fights. The on-screen fights tell the purest story of the fight as it canonically happened. The point is, Kenobi could not threaten Dooku with his fighting style and Dooku regularly removed him from the fight because he wanted to piss Skywalker off.

The idea that Soresu suddenly became too much for a Makashi master is ludicrous. Where this point is concerned, the novel does not contradict the film. Dooku noted that it was essentially a waste of time trying to penetrate Kenobi's saber defenses (especially while also having to deal with a second attacker), so he opted to trounce him with the force. Simple.

Never said Soresu was "too much" for Makashi - please stop adding your opinions to my post. I said that Kenobi's Soresu was enough to pose a threat to Dooku, which is true. Dooku acknowledged that much in the novelization.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You see your taking parts of the novel (Dooku not dare striking through Obi-Wan's defences), and then parts of the movie (Casual Force attacks on Obi-Wan) and making your own conclusion, that Dooku HAD to use the Force on Obi-Wan.

Well the same novel that says Dooku dared not strike on Obi-Wan, has Dooku knocking Obi-Wan Out with a Kick to the face. So even from the Novel's point of view, the only reason he did not dare strike against Obi-Wan Defences, is because that would be suicide while he had a "Destroyer Droid with a lightsaber" on his case. Nothing in the novel suggested Dooku would have had even the slightest difficulty if he just tackled Obi-Wan by himself (which he never once had a chance to do in ROTS).

Now I knw your gna say, but the movie shows he didnt take out Obi-Wan with a kick.. Well the same movie never once showed Dooku struggling in the slightest against Obi-Wan, so the point is moot.

Agreed - didn't have the time to sit and bang out a response to N's lunacy. This statment pretty much echoes my thoughts on the subject. N, you cannot, while remaining credible, use the novel to support your argument, then go on to say it doesn't apply when it becomes inconvenient.

I can actually. The novelisation stands unless it directly contradicts the movie. To my knowledge neither I nor Galen have used extracts that do that in our arguments.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can actually. The novelisation stands unless it directly contradicts the movie. To my knowledge neither I nor Galen have used extracts that do that in our arguments.





The movie sure as HELL doesn't show Dooku struggling at ALL w/ Kenobi in sabers, so... yeah.

V6_dxW4NpDU

Suuuuuuuuuurrrre.





Well going by their feats since he was able to stand up to Grievous. I admit though that I don't know crap about them other than that they are apparently good swordsmen.

Also he didn't beat Grievous:

6Sbkpigyo4o



He didn't defeat him. One Force Push does not equal a win.



Not really. They couldn't even defend against Palpatine's blitz. According to the ROTS novelisation, Grievous is faster than Palpatine.



Yes it does. Kenobi cut off two hands. Fisto could only manage one.



Not really. All you've said so far is that since Kit Fisto could beat him so could Qui-Gon. Thats blatantly stupid.

Kenobi's defeat of Grievous and his defence against his fabled '20-strikes per second' on top of the Labyrinth feat on top of the personal glorifying from Windu and even Dooku, who described his defence as 'perfect' are superior to anything Qui-Gon has demonstrated. ROTS Kenobi is well > Qui-Gon and his younger self by a longshot. He would defeat Maul should they fight again, and Maul kicked the crap out of those two without even breathing hard afterwards.



No shit he's fallible. He's human. He is still a reliable source in this matter. As for you points, he hadn't talked to Dooku in decades I believe. There was no way he could have known about his conversion. And there are more darkside cults than the Sith running around the galaxy. A growth in the drakside doesn't automatically lead to a Sith uprising.



Thats only your interpretation.



So your point is that because Dooku, who you admit is vastly superior to Qui-Gon, managed to fight off both of them together then Qui-Gon can get through Kenobi's defences?

WTF? http://www.gamingmasters.co.uk/styles/ogoatzen/smilies/emot-psyduck.gif



Then.....? You do know he was toying with them right? He controlled the fight from beginning to the end.

Up until Kenobi did his wonder flip thing at least.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The movie sure as HELL doesn't show Dooku struggling at ALL w/ Kenobi in sabers, so... yeah.

V6_dxW4NpDU

Thats your interpretation. Character thoughts do not contradict what we see on screen. Therefore they are valid. Also you'll notice theres a cut between when he blocks Anakin and Kenobi together o when he's Force pushing Kenobi. All that needs to happen to make the story consistent is to assume that more time passed between cuts than is apparent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also he didn't beat Grievous:

6Sbkpigyo4o It's also worth mentioning that GG was only using two blades there. Clearly he wasn't fighting to the best of his ability.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also you'll notice theres a cut between when he blocks Anakin and Kenobi together o when he's Force pushing Kenobi. All that needs to happen to make the story consistent is to assume that more time passed between cuts than is apparent. ...Which is where the novel comes into play.

Originally posted by Nephthys
...According to the ROTS novelisation, Grievous is faster than Palpatine.

Not sure about that either. Quote please?

'The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.'

JT
Not sure about that either. Quote please?

It's a quote referencing that the good general can move faster than any human being, I'll hunt for it later.


edit: Never mind, he found it.

I have the entire book saved on my laptop. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-black101.gif

N.
I have the entire book saved on my laptop.

What are you trying to get at, regarding Grievous and Koth and whatever?

Originally posted by Nephthys
'The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.'

Mace Windu's swordplay against Sidious appeared as "Dozens of blades attacking from every angle." Dozens > 20

Whether Skywalker was there or not doesn't affect the fact of Mace's speed. Therefore the quote (from the same novel and author no less) regarding no human being able to even remotely move that fast is garbage.

That part contradicts the movie.

Its actually told from Anakin's perspective:

Anakin skidded to a stop.

Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.

More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.

This was Vaapad's ultimate test.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind-the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force.'

Note that the narration only says that he's 'Almost too fast to see.' whereas Grievous literally is too fast to see. And it only says it 'seemed' there was dozens at once.

Yeah, per the film Anakin didn't enter the chamber until after Mace had already beaten Palpatine. So anything he supposedly said/thought/saw regarding the battle before that point = non-canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That part contradicts the movie.

If we are going to do it that way so does Grievous attacking at twenty strikes per second...

Shhh. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ssh.gif

No-ones figured that out yet.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Well going by their feats since he was able to stand up to Grievous. I admit though that I don't know crap about them other than that they are apparently good swordsmen.

Thery're apparently amongst the best swordmen in the history of the jedi order! I doubt thats ever been said about Koth.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Also he didn't beat Grievous:


He didn't defeat him. One Force Push does not equal a win.

I think holding him off in a sword fight,(while under the pressure of having GG's magnaguards around him), and then sending GG flying back landing on the floor with a Force push, shows Koth was winning.

If he wasn't the magnaguards would not have intervened as they were just watching at first.

Oh and Kenobi also finished the Saber fight against GG via a Force Push.



Originally posted by Nephthys

Not really. They couldn't even defend against Palpatine's blitz. According to the ROTS novelisation, Grievous is faster than Palpatine.

You honestly think its harder o defend against Grievous than Sidious?! Come on man!


Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. All you've said so far is that since Kit Fisto could beat him so could Qui-Gon. Thats blatantly stupid.

Hey? I never said that! I did say theres a lack of evidence that Kenobi is above Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi's defeat of Grievous and his defence against his fabled '20-strikes per second' on top of the Labyrinth feat on top of the personal glorifying from Windu and even Dooku, who described his defence as 'perfect' are superior to anything Qui-Gon has demonstrated. ROTS Kenobi is well > Qui-Gon and his younger self by a longshot. He would defeat Maul should they fight again, and Maul kicked the crap out of those two without even breathing hard afterwards.

Qui-Gon has been said to be one of the greatest swordsmen of TPM era. Has been said to have been the equal of Mace Windu(TPM era) in Lightsaber sparring. His Lightsaber Instructor stated Qui-Gon was the best swordsman he had seen in his 200 years of training Jedi.

Dooku knocked through that "perfect" defence of Kenobis in the ROTS novel without much difficulty. Qui-Gon has the aid of a young energetic and fully trained Obi-Wan in this match.

Maul had a double blade designed to fight mutiple Jedi. Obi-Wan only has the one sword to fight off 2 Jedi both utilizing fast and powerful strikes via ataru.

Theres a fair few Jedi who can defeat GG. As for holding off the 20 strikes per sec.. Yes thats impressive. But picture this, Qui-Gon and Young Obi-Wan will both be on opposites sides of ROTS Kenobi. With his single blade and considering the caliber of Qui-Gon Im not sure Kenobi will be able to handle this fight.



Originally posted by Nephthys
You do know he was toying with them right? He controlled the fight from beginning to the end.

Up until Kenobi did his wonder flip thing at least.

He might have been winning, and even controlling the fight. But he killed as soon as he had the chance.

Apart from right at the end when he was toying with Obi-Wan, once Qui-gon was dead and Obi-Wan disarmed and hanging for his life

Its never been said, but that doesn't mean it can't be true. Being 'among the best' is kinda meaningless too. Are they among the top ten? The top hundred? Top ten thousand?

Plus he didn't beat Greivous in sabers. Stop acting like he did.



Not at all. If he was winning he would have pressed his advantage after the push. If he was winning he wouldn't have been giving ground and being forced back constantly throughout the duel. He force pushed Greivous because he was adumbass and stood there wide open for it. It was PIS.



Speculation.



After dominating the duel and cutting off two of his hands. Koth? Not so much.



Just pointing it out.



So? Kit Fisto could kick their asses too.



Quotes for these?



Non-canon.



You think they can put more pressure on his defence than Greivous or Dooku? Lol. They couldn't even brake through Mauls defences. Kenobi's are vastly superior.



Kenobi can hold off Grievous and Dooku in sabers. He can hold off an enraged Ventress without even using a lightsaber. He can defend against 50+ droids all firing on him at once. He can hold off two people who couldn't even get through Maul's defences.



Or as soon as he got bored.

Eeth Koth didn't defeat Grievous, but the general definitely wasn't winning.

Shhhhh, only dreams now.

Missed this. Sorry. He's trying to degrade Kenobi's feat of defeating Grievous by making out that Grievous is shit and lots of people could defeat him,* as well as belittling the Councils choice to send him after Grievous because of his skills with Soresu by arguing that since alot of people can beat him then the Council was simply showing favouritism in sending him rather than doing so based solely upon his skill.

I disagree.



*Something getting harder to defend against with the Asstastic treatment he's been getting in Clone Wars. It's like Labyrinth of Evil and CWC never happened.

N.
Missed this. Sorry. He's trying to degrade Kenobi's feat of defeating Grievous by making out that Grievous is shit and lots of people could defeat him,* as well as belittling the Councils choice to send him after Grievous because of his skills with Soresu by arguing that since alot of people can beat him then the Council was simply showing favouritism in sending him rather than doing so based solely upon his skill.

I disagree.



*Something getting harder to defend against with the Asstastic treatment he's been getting in Clone Wars. It's like Labyrinth of Evil and CWC never happened.

It's actually a bit of both.

General Grievous isn't the unstoppable badass he was depicted to be in previous EU works. In the director's commentary of ROTS, George makes it very clear that the general is simply a moderately powerful coward. Count Dooku alludes to the fact that the general needs more than just his reflexes and training if he's to defeat the best that the Jedi have to offer; he needs to rely on his superior intellect and cunning to get the job done. That's precisely how he defeats Masters Fisto and Koth in their respective battles: He owns the terrain and isn't afraid to rely on backup.

Looking at his performances holistically, the most accurate conclusion seems to be that General Grievous is more than a match for most Jedi, particularly the padawans and Knights. But in a contest with a Jedi Master or, worse, a Jedi High Council member, he'll need to draw on resources other than just his lightsaber skill. He's clearly not a pushover and has even defeated Obi-Wan in the series in a relatively one-on-one duel, but he's clearly not quite equal to the likes of Obi-Wan, Fisto, Koth and other Jedi Council members in a strict fight.

Before TCW animated series came about, Grievous was holistically depicted as a match for any Jedi on his own - proof of this can be found in Labyrinth of Evil, CWC, and a host of other comic books.

However, most people seem to completely disregard the aforementioned plethora of evidence, just because Fisto and Koth did well against him in TWC (even though Fisto was stated to be one of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced, and even though GG was only using two blades against Koth.) Meh, whatevs.

G007
Before TCW animated series came about, Grievous was holistically depicted as a match for any Jedi on his own - proof of this can be found in Labyrinth of Evil, CWC, and a host of other comic books.

Yeah, I'm aware of all this and support the general's more badass incarnation.
That said, the new series is T-canon and George made it pretty clear in the ROTS director's commentary that Grievous is nothing more than a moderately powerful coward, which is why the current show shows him as less intimidating or impressive in combat than what we saw of him earlier.



No one's disregarding anything.
General Grievous isn't a push-over and is clearly capable of holding his own against some of the best that the Jedi have to offer.
But the days of the good general manhandling everyone but Yoda and Mace are long, long gone.
He relies on assistance, deceit, and a generally superior intellect to defeat the true badasses around rather than outright skill.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Yeah, I'm aware of all this and support the general's more badass incarnation.
That said, the new series is T-canon and George made it pretty clear in the ROTS director's commentary that Grievous is nothing more than a moderately powerful coward, which is why the current show shows him as less intimidating or impressive in combat than what we saw of him earlier.

No one's disregarding anything.
General Grievous isn't a push-over and is clearly capable of holding his own against some of the best that the Jedi have to offer.
But the days of the good general manhandling everyone but Yoda and Mace are long, long gone.
He relies on assistance, deceit, and a generally superior intellect to defeat the true badasses around rather than outright skill. That post wasn't directed at you, Gid. It just seems that some people are very quick to low-ball Grievous without considering any of his showings outside of TCW... Which doesn't make any sense to me.

His battles with Fisto and Koth in TCW may not have painted the General in 'teh uberest' of lights, but they certainly weren't low showings either (for reasons I mentioned above.) Furthermore, said battles still don't contradict any of GG's showings in other canon sources, so there's no reason said sources should be disregarded/not used in forum battles. Just MO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's trying to degrade Kenobi's feat of defeating Grievous by making out that Grievous is shit and lots of people could defeat him,* as well as belittling the Councils choice to send him after Grievous because of his skills with Soresu by arguing that since alot of people can beat him then the Council was simply showing favouritism in sending him rather than doing so based solely upon his skill.

I disagree.



*Something getting harder to defend against with the Asstastic treatment he's been getting in Clone Wars. It's like Labyrinth of Evil and CWC never happened.

Iv stated from the novel the Council unanimously agreed to send Kenobi because he was their most "cunning and tenacious jedi". Thats hardly belittling the Council's choice.

I still believe when it comes to smarts and wisdom that Kenobi is one of the greatest Jedi, so of course the whole Council have a right to think very highly of him as a Jedi.

But in Combat I dnt see him above Ventress, in fact I personally think she can take him. Which is nothing to be ashamed of, still better than the vast majority of jedi, but not close to any of the Prequel Greats. Not in Sabers or in the Force.

I disagree. Your accusations of favouritism sound like belittling to me.



His lightsaber skills are also a reason.



Show me Ventress actually beating him and we'll talk. Becuase he beats her a hell of a lot more than she does him.

Do any of you really believe Kenobi is more cunning than master Yoda? Do you really believe that Kenobi is a greater master of defensive lightsaber combat than Yoda? I for one will not, CAN NOT, buy that.

Yoda isn't the greatest at everything. In fact, I've rarely heard anything acknowledging his lightsaber skills above those of others.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda isn't the greatest at everything. In fact, I've rarely heard anything acknowledging his lightsaber skills above those of others.

Blasphemous SCUM!!

I'd say that his duels w/ Dooku and his disarming of Sidious, speak volumes about his skills w/ a lightsaber.

How long do you really think Kenobi would last against Sidious in lightsaber combat?

The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia confirms that Yoda is a master of all seven forms.

K.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda isn't the greatest at everything. In fact, I've rarely heard anything acknowledging his lightsaber skills above those of others. Originally posted by RagingBoner
The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia confirms that Yoda is a master of all seven forms. Yeah but that still doesn't mean Yoda was better than everyone at every form. For instance, there's nothing that indicates his mastery of Form III was better than Obi-Wan's. Same can be same about his mastery of Form II vs. Dooku's. Or his mastery of Form VII vs. Mace's. Etc.

Heck, you have to be a high-level master of multiple forms just to start learning how to control Juyo/Vaapad - something Mace (and a few others) had no problem achieving in his/their lifetime. That said, I'd certainly hope Yoda could master seven forms of combat (to some extent) in 900+ years.

ermmnone

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I'd say that his duels w/ Dooku and his disarming of Sidious, speak volumes about his skills w/ a lightsaber.

How long do you really think Kenobi would last against Sidious in lightsaber combat?

Originally posted by Nephthys


His lightsaber skills are also a reason.

Well yeah they needed one of the Jedi who can definetely take Grievous. But they also wanted someone cunning who will stop at nothing to get the job done. As GG has shown himself in the past to be a brilliant tactician. And has always escaped when getting beat by Jedi.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Show me Ventress actually beating him and we'll talk. Becuase he beats her a hell of a lot more than she does him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWK6VWqZrCc

Skip to 1:11. She beats him in a Saber fight. Knocks him to the floor leaving him lying there and disarmed. If Anakin wasn't there, Kenobi would be finished.

Skip to 2:00. She proves shes more powerful than him in the Force as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah but that still doesn't mean Yoda was better than everyone at every form. For instance, there's nothing that indicates his mastery of Form III was better than Obi-Wan's.



Read the AOTC novel, fight between Yoda and Dooku. Yoda is standing still perfectly balanced just defending. His defences were so amazing Dooku tried his very best and was not able to get past them. I dnt think Kenobi has ever demonstrated a defence THAT good, which is above Dooku's capability to get through.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Read the AOTC novel, fight between Yoda and Dooku. Yoda is standing still perfectly balanced just defending. His defences were so amazing Dooku tried his very best and was not able to get past them. I dnt think Kenobi has ever demonstrated a defence THAT good, which is above Dooku's capability to get through. Watch the AotC film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TKeC6t2fCw

At no point does Yoda just stand in on place and casually deflect multiple attacks from Dooku.

---

@ JT

I'm not saying Obi-Wan would do better than Yoda did against Sidious (obviously he wouldn't.) However, Yoda's form of choice is Ataru - that's what he's the best at. That's the form which allows him to dominate pretty much any opponent. All I was referring to is there not being much to indicate that his mastery of Soresu was greater than Kenobi's. Same with Dooku and Makashi, as well as Mace and Form VII.

Originally posted by Nephthys


So? Kit Fisto could kick their asses too.

Doubt it. Qui-Gon was considered one of the best swordsmen in an order that included Fisto.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Quotes for these?

Most the quotes about just how good a swordsman Qui-Gon is are from TPM novel during the Darth Maul fight.



Originally posted by Nephthys

Non-canon.

Then it is also non-canon that Dooku had difficulty with Kenobi's defences. Im not sure whats so difficult to understand here. You guys are taking and disregarding evidence from the novel(s) as you please.



Originally posted by Nephthys
You think they can put more pressure on his defence than Greivous or Dooku? Lol.

LOL Kenobi was Never Any kind of pressure for Dooku at all.

And yeah considering Qui-Gon would be a Jedi council member if he just followed the code, and that he was one of the best swordmen in the Galaxy, I can certainly see him + young Obi-Wan together being much more difficult to take than GG.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi can hold off Grievous and Dooku in sabers.

LOL He CANT hold off Count Dooku!

Originally posted by Nephthys
He can hold off two people who couldn't even get through Maul's defences.



Yeah because Maul was just some easy padawn to defeat right? (the quote-"one of the most highly trained sith apprentices" comes to mind) And yet Kenobi gets disarmed, knocked down and force choked by Ventress, a Sith wannabe.

Originally posted by Galan007
Watch the AotC film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TKeC6t2fCw

At no point does Yoda just stand in on place and casually deflect multiple attacks from Dooku.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Then it is also non-canon that Dooku had difficulty with Kenobi's defences. Im not sure whats so difficult to understand here. You guys are taking and disregarding evidence from the novel(s) as you please.

I can't recall any of this being said in the actual scene to tell the truth. All thats said in both the scene and the novelisation is that 'a master is needed, someone with experience.' However, cunning doesn't seeme to have jack diddly to do with it considering Kenobi's actions.



She kicks him in a saber fight. That isn't the same as defeating him. We don't kknow how fast he recovered from that, as we don't see him again in the scene, so we can't say whether he would have recovered in time.

She's drawing on battl-erage here. Theres extenuating circumstances and its not something she can do normally.



This never occurs in the movie.



As of TPM. And as I've told you, being one of the best doesn't mean much, especially since A) most lightsaber fights are decided by force strength (POD) and B) The same is true of Obi-Wan.



They also mention that age has dulled him to the point where his experience is the only 'edge' he has. He's not at the top of his game.



No we're not. Him being kicked in the face directly contradicts the movie. Him having trouble with Kenobi's defence is a matter of interpretation, and could easily have happened off-screen.



That wasn't what I said.



The same GG that defeated three Jedi Council Members and 2 other Jedi Knights at the same time?!

I doubt it.



'In sabers.'



And Kenobi is?



A Sith wannabe who has defeated Jedi Council Members, including Kit freakin' Fisto before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't recall any of this being said in the actual scene to tell the truth. All thats said in both the scene and the novelisation is that 'a master is needed, someone with experience.' However, cunning doesn't seeme to have jack diddly to do with it considering Kenobi's actions.

In the movie they say "a master with more experience is needed". Nothing about Kenobi's great sword skills being needed.

In the novel mace was blowing kenobi's trumpet a lot, prepping him for his mission one on one, but when the council discuss it Mace says "then let the chancellor know we will be sending our most cunning and tenacious jedi to catch grievous" Kenobi was confused who this was, but it seemed obvious to the rest of the council.



Originally posted by Nephthys
She kicks him in a saber fight. That isn't the same as defeating him. We don't kknow how fast he recovered from that, as we don't see him again in the scene, so we can't say whether he would have recovered in time.

He was on the floor and disarmed. If nothing else it shows she was "winning" and that she can pass his defences.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She's drawing on battl-erage here. Theres extenuating circumstances and its not something she can do normally.

Speculation. Sidious says before this fight that she's grown powerful.



Originally posted by Nephthys
They also mention that age has dulled him to the point where his experience is the only 'edge' he has. He's not at the top of his game.

Yeah thats true. He wasn't in his prime. And yet was still said to be a powerful jedi, and one of the best swordsmen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No we're not. Him being kicked in the face directly contradicts the movie. Him having trouble with Kenobi's defence is a matter of interpretation, and could easily have happened off-screen.

Ah but not only does the novel contradict the movie here, but it also contradicts itself. Because in the same novel he thinks this, he kicks him in the face.

Fact is Kenobi in the movie gave Dooku no trouble at all in Sabers. He one handed holds off both Anakin and Kenobi. Although it was shown Anakin kept forcing him back, Kenobi never gave him any trouble whatsoever. Any trouble he was feeling was just the extra pressure Kenobi was putting on top off the real powerhouse there- Anakin.

So in either case Dooku's thoughts on the matter (in the novel) are meaningless.

I have the novel out in front of me, but I can't find that bit.

'
"I believe we all agree on that," Anakin said briskly. "Let's move to the operational planning. The Chancellor has requested that I lead this mission, and so I-"

"The Council will decide this," Mace said sternly. "Not the Chancellor."

"Dangerous, Grievous is. To face him, steady minds are needed-Masters, we should send."

Perhaps of all the Council, only Obi-Wan could detect the shadow of disappointment and hurt that crept into Anakin's eyes. Obi-Wan understood perfectly, and could even sympathize: to take the field would have slipped Anakin out from under the pressures of what he saw as his conflicting duties.

"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I recommend we send only one Jedi-Master Kenobi."

Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right.

Obi-Wan nodded. Perfectly logical. Everyone would agree. Except Anakin. He leaned forward, red climbing his cheeks. "He wasn't so successful the last time he met Grievous!"

"Anakin-" Obi-Wan began. "No offense, my Master. I am only stating a fact."

"Oh no, not at all. You're quite right. But I have a feel for how he fights now-and for how he runs away. I am certain I can catch him."

"Master-"

"And you, my young friend, have duties here on Coruscant. Extremely important duties, that require your full attention," Obi-Wan reminded him. "Am I being clear?"

Anakin didn't answer. He sank back into his chair and turned away.

"Obi-Wan, my choice is," Yoda said.

Ki-Adi-Mundi's image nodded. "I concur. Let's put it to a vote."

Mace Windu counted nods. "Six in favor."

He waited, looking at Anakin. "Further comment?"

Anakin only stared at the wall.

After a moment, Mace shrugged.

"It is unanimous."'

Is it later than that?



I'm sure nobody will claim that is defences are unbreachable (any more). But Ventresses skill, her battle rage and the fact that he had just crash landed imo make this an acceptable and understandable slip on his part.



She's clearly immenslly pissed off that Dooku dumped her.

And if she's grown powerful then theres no shame in losing to her.



The novel says he 'was' one of the most able jedi and that he 'had' been one of the best.



Again, the novel is only invalid when it directly contradicts the movie (barring any massive lapses in continuity). Internal thoughts do not do this. Kicks do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have the novel out in front of me, but I can't find that bit.



Chapter 11 Politics, pg.212

"Agreed." Mace Windu looked around the half-empty Council Chamber with a deepening frown. "And one last touch. Let's let the Chancellor know, through Anakin, that our most cunning and insightful Master- and our most tenacious- is to lead the hunt for Grievous."

"So Sidious will need to act, and act fast, if the war is to be maintained," Plo Koon added approvingly.

Yoda nodded judiciously. "Agreed." Agen Kolar as-sented as well, and Ki-Adi-Mundi.

"This sounds like a good plan," Obi-Wan said. "But what Master do you have in mind?"

For a moment no one spoke, as though astonished he would ask such a question.

Only after a few seconds in which Obi-Wan looked from the faces of one Master to the next, puzzled by the expressions of gentle amusement each and every one of them wore, did it finally register that all of them were looking at him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No we're not. Him being kicked in the face directly contradicts the movie. Him having trouble with Kenobi's defence is a matter of interpretation, and could easily have happened off-screen. Exactly, I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

There is a very distinct scene which cuts to Palpatine as Kenobi is engaging Dooku (we can only hear sabers colliding in the background.) When the film cuts back to the battle, Anakin is out of the scene completely, and we see Dooku force push Kenobi backward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_dxW4NpDU
(Starts at 0:56)

All we're doing is filling in that gap with the novel's description... Which, imo, is the most logical thing to do.

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly, I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

There is a very distinct scene which cuts to Palpatine as Kenobi is engaging Dooku (we can only hear sabers colliding in the background.) When the film cuts back to the battle, Anakin is out of the scene completely, and we see Dooku force push Kenobi backward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_dxW4NpDU
(Starts at 0:56)

All we're doing is filling in that gap with the novel's description... Which, imo, is the most logical thing to do.

That's all good and all. Then by this logic, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Dooku broke through Kenobi's defense and kicked him in his face during the cut-away as well.

JT
Then by this logic, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Dooku broke through Kenobi's defense during the cut-away as well.

Not unless there's nothing to support such a notion. Galan and N. are using the line edited novelization to fill in the gaps between scenes in the films, not merely proffering their own personal interpretations and beliefs.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Not unless there's nothing to support such a notion. Galan and N. are using the line edited novelization to fill in the gaps between scenes in the films, not merely proffering their own personal interpretations and beliefs. The novel states that Dooku kicked Kenobi in the face, does it not?

JT
The novel states that Dooku kicked Kenobi in the face, does it not?

As far as I remember, yes.
Understand that I'm not exactly following this debate, simply wanting to elaborate on your contention that it is not unreasonable to conclude 'X'. As long as you have canon material supporting what you say and you can provide evidence that the event in question occurred during the 'cutaway', you're solid.

It's cool man! All I'm saying is that it's just as logical to assume that Dooku's breach of Kenobi's defense happened in said cut-away as it is to assume N and G007's position of Dooku struggling w/ Kenobi's defense as stated here:

Originally posted by Nephthys
...you'll notice theres a cut between when he blocks Anakin and Kenobi together o when he's Force pushing Kenobi. All that needs to happen to make the story consistent is to assume that more time passed between cuts than is apparent.

...given that it in no way contradicts the movie and is stated in the novel. Canon source + lack of contradiction = it happened.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Then by this logic, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Dooku broke through Kenobi's defense and kicked him in his face during the cut-away as well. Except we can hear lightsabers colliding during the entire cut away, and Kenobi is still standing when the scene cuts back to he and Dooku. So no, it's not logical to assume that Dooku ninja-kicked him during that cut away.

What is far more logical to assume is that Dooku engaged Kenobi for a moment, realized his defense was too solid to try and penetrate in that situation, thus he opted to pwn him with the force (which is what the novel states happened.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Except we can hear lightsabers colliding during the entire cut away, and Kenobi is still standing when the scene cuts back to he and Dooku. So no, it's not logical to assume that Dooku ninja-kicked him during that cut away.

What is far more logical to assume is that Dooku engaged Kenobi for a moment, realized his defense was too solid to try and penetrate in that situation, thus he opted to pwn him with the force (which is what the novel states happened.)

So... let me get this right... since you're going by 'real time', you're saying that Dooku realized in a one-on-one encounter w/ Kenobi that lasted for all of 2 seconds that he couldn't breach Kenobi's defense because it was too damn difficult? That's ***king hilarious!!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
So... let me get this right... since you're going by 'real time', you're saying that Dooku realized in a one-on-one encounter w/ Kenobi that lasted for all of 2 seconds that he couldn't breach Kenobi's defense because it was too damn difficult? That's ***king hilarious!! Because Dooku isn't one of the best lightsaber practitioners ever, and knows absolutely nothing about form/technique, right? srsly

For instance: I'm certainly not a professional fighter, but it would only take one hit from Anderson Silva for me to know I'm outclassed.

If memory serves, Leland Chee once commented that while events that contradict the film must submit to the movie's superior placement in the canon hierarchy, narrative and perceptions aren't necessarily negated.
Count Dooku could still very well come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan's defenses were too polished to overcome in those circumstances through sheer bladework.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because Dooku isn't one of the best lightsaber practitioners ever, and knows absolutely nothing about form/technique, right? srsly

For instance: I'm certainly not a professional fighter, but it would only take one hit from Anderson Silva for me to know I'm outclassed.

G007, I think anyone with an ounce of logic would, given your statement about Dooku realizing during a 2 second saber clash w/ Kenobi that his defenses were unbreachable, would consider such a statement as absurd. Moreover - from the RotS script: "Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better" I think this sums it up nicely.

Considering Dooku also talked shit to Anakin ten seconds before he was killed by him, and to Yoda ten seconds before he ran away fearing for his life (both times), I would argue that Dooku is an arrogant, goading bastard, and you can not take anything he says into account even a little bit.

Blax
I would argue that Dooku is an arrogant, goading bastard

I will kindly ask you to not slander the good Count's equally good name in such a manner ever again.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
G007, I think anyone with an ounce of logic would, given your statement about Dooku realizing during a 2 second saber clash w/ Kenobi that his defenses were unbreachable, would consider such a statement as absurd. Then those people (you) wouldn't be taking into consideration Dooku's experience and mastery in the area of lightsaber combat.

In the novel it only took a few parries for Dooku to come to the conclusion that there was no point trying to overcome Kenobi's defenses, saber to saber - thus he trounced him with the force instead. This correlates perfectly with the cut away in the film.

Why are you making it more than it needs to be?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Moreover - from the RotS script: "Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better" I think this sums it up nicely. ...Which is a non-canon statement, and was also stated before Kenobi began using Soresu.

Originally posted by Galan007
...and was also stated before Kenobi began using Soresu.

Non-canon (according to your philosophy from an earlier comment) since Kenobi follows Dooku up the stairs AFTER the quote and slashes and chops at Dooku. This, according to you, IS NOT Soresu. See:

Originally posted by Galan007
"Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust" - Attack of the Clones.

Slashes and chops are not part of Form III combat.

Disarm him in sabers only? No, he did not.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Non-canon (according to your philosophy from an earlier comment) since Kenobi follows Dooku up the stairs AFTER the quote and slashes and chops at Dooku. This, according to you, IS NOT Soresu. Huh? I simply mentioned that the quote you posted from the script is non-canon because it wasn't stated in the film. Again, don't make things more than they need to be.

...And why did you repost the excerpt I posted from the AotC novelization?

Originally posted by Galan007
Then those people (you) wouldn't be taking into consideration Dooku's experience and mastery in the area of lightsaber combat.

In the novel it only took a few parries for Dooku to come to the conclusion that there was no point trying to overcome Kenobi's defenses, saber to saber - thus he trounced him with the force instead. This correlates perfectly with the cut away in the film.

Why are you making it more than it needs to be?

...Which is a non-canon statement, and was also stated before Kenobi began using Soresu.

Post the quote, in full context from the novel please.

Originally posted by Galan007
T

In the novel it only took a few parries for Dooku to come to the conclusion that there was no point trying to overcome Kenobi's defenses, saber to saber - thus he trounced him with the force instead.

No wrong this didn't happen in the novel. Nowhere was it stated Dooku was forced to use The Force on Kenobi. He takes him out with a kick.

My problem with this Dooku having difficulty with Kenobi's defence, is that theres no hint of him struggling aginst Kenob in any way shape or form in the movie, and the novel contadicts the notion Itself, when Dooku kicks Kenobi in the face.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
So... let me get this right... since you're going by 'real time', you're saying that Dooku realized in a one-on-one encounter w/ Kenobi that lasted for all of 2 seconds that he couldn't breach Kenobi's defense because it was too damn difficult? That's ***king hilarious!!

LOL.. This is so true.. The camera pointed to Palps for a good 2 secs, and in that time, everything we read in the novel happened! LOL

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL.. This is so true.. The camera pointed to Palps for a good 2 secs, and in that time, everything we read in the novel happened! LOL



Now, does anybody have the fight on hand so that they can post it on here? If so, please do.

Youtube it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Youtube it.

The NOVEL you ***king rump ranger!!!!!!!!!!!!

He sprang, lightsaber angled for the kill.

Obi-Wan leapt from Dooku's far side in perfect coordination-and they met in midair, for the Sith Lord was no longer between them.

Anakin looked up just in time to glimpse the bottom of Dooku's rancor-leather boot as it came down on his face and smacked him tumbling toward the floor; he reached into the Force to effortlessly right himself and touched down in perfect balance to spring again toward the lightning flares, scarlet against sky blue, that sprayed from clashing lightsabers as Dooku pressed Obi-Wan away with a succession of weaving, flourishing thrusts that drove the Jedi's blade out of line while they reached for his heart.

Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back-and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one-handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.

He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own-and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall. His lightsaber came loose from his slackening fingers and clattered across the tabletop to drop to the floor on the far side.

And Dooku barely even seemed to be paying attention to him.

Pinned, breathless, half stunned, Anakin thought, If this keeps up, I am going to get mad.

While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine.

"My my," he said, chuckling. "The boy has some power after all."

His backroll brought him to his feet directly in front of the lad, who was charging, headlong and unarmed, after the table he had tossed, and was already thoroughly red in the face.

"I'm twice the Jedi I was last time!"

Ah, Dooku thought. Such a fragile little ego. Sidious will have to help him with that. But until then-The grip of Skywalker's blade whistled through the air to meet his hand in perfect synchrony with a sweeping slash. "My powers have doubled since we last met-"

"How lovely for you." Dooku neatly sidestepped, cutting at the boy's leg, yet Skywalker's blade met the cut as he passed and he managed to sweep his blade behind his head to slap aside the casual thrust Dooku aimed at the back of his neck-but his clumsy charge had put him in Kenobi's path, so that the Jedi Master had to Force-roll over his partner's head.

Directly at Dooku's upraised blade.

Kenobi drove a slash at the scarlet blade while he pivoted in the air, and again Dooku sidestepped so that now it was Kenobi in Skywalker's way.

"Really," Dooku said, "this is pathetic."

Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction, while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to out-maneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could to do keep from laughing out loud.

It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat-attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides-while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner.

Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another-and occasionally flip over a head here and there-so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way.

They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.

They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.

He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.

However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.

He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats. "Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."

Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.

And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet-and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down-Skywalker was already there.

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.

Now it was time to kill.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

An incredibly proficient master of Soresu who would have totally kicked Qui-Gons ass. It wouldn't eevn be a contest. Also DARTH POWER is dumb and Takai sucks chode.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this . . .

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

Wouldn't that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Now, as for Skywalker-Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.

The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.

He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.

He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

=4=

Jedi Trap

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

This...

...Never happened. Not in the 2 second cut-away, not in the fight PERIOD. Therefore Dooku's 'trouble w/ Kenobi's defense' is non-canon.

Moreover, according to G007 (of whom you agreed with), Kenobi never once used Soresu in the movie fight. See his philosophy regarding the AotC fight: Originally posted by Galan007
"Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust" - Attack of the Clones.

Slashes and chops are not part of Form III combat.

Disarm him in sabers only? No, he did not.

The entire on-screen fight depicts Kenobi doing nothing more than slashing and chopping at Dooku - hardly Soresu. Therefore the change from Ataro to Soresu never occured. With this being said, the novel's description of the fight also never occured rendering it non-canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
An incredibly proficient master of Soresu who would have totally kicked Qui-Gons ass. It wouldn't eevn be a contest. Also DARTH POWER is dumb and Takai sucks chode.



I cant seem to find this part in the novel.. Therefore its not canon

It doesn't contradict anything we see on screen. smurph

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't contradict anything we see on screen. smurph You lose and you know it.

No, I'm just too tiredto type up a decent reply right now. I'm all burnt out and stuff.

Time to back up the waambulence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm just too tiredto type up a decent reply right now. I'm all burnt out and stuff.

Time to back up the waambulence.

Good, me too. Time for grub.

*grubs.

I have cake.

Its good. :O

It's a lie.

Does Obi-wan like cake?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's a lie.

Its a football cake.

What kind of football? The good kind or the gay kind?

The British kind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The British gay kind.

Figures.

I'm amazed some lonely prick taught his chode to type. You're like some kind of christmas miracle dick. I'd shake your hand, but you're a dick and don't have one.

Dick.