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The Chaos King VS Molecule Man


amatsu-mikaboshi at his strongest. no prep. Current/Most Recent molecule man.

The original MM couldn't even control organic matter, and needed a wand. Current would be a better match.

agreed, but is the chaos king a organic or an energy based entity?
if more energy based, the orginal mm might have a chance.

MM that was a match for the beyonder would be good. I think he would win.

MoleculeMan from secret wars would win.Current MM would probably lose since CK manipulates Molecules as well.Add the fact current MM got beat by Sentry.

Chaos King craps all over him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The original MM couldn't even control organic matter, and needed a wand. Current would be a better match. He thought he couldn't control organic matter.

chaos king would wtf stomp void, and void beat MM

Molecule Man is all over the place power wise. Recently, though not as recent as his Sentry fight, he threw down with the Beyonder (who he extracted by force from Kosmos).

The fight was wrecking havoc across ALL space and time simultaneously. Just as MM was going to kill the Beyonder, Kubik steps in and begs him not to. Not for Beyonder's sake but for the sake of the multiverse (killing a being of that level of power would wreck havoc with creation). Keep in mind this was POST ret-con MM and Beyonder!

If it's that Molecule Man, CK is toast.

how would ck be toast?

celestials are more powerful than kubik and beyonder and so is galaxtus who got ignored by chaos king .

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
how would ck be toast?

celestials are more powerful than kubik and beyonder and so is galaxtus who got ignored by chaos king .

Because MM/Beyonder threatened the entire multiverse with destruction? And the difference between CK threatening the "multiverse' and MM/Beyonder doing it, is unlike CK, it was SHOWN on panel other dimensions, timelines, being affected by MM/Beyonder. The Living Tribunal, Eternity, Order and Chaos were even witnessing the event and commenting on their "omnipotence".

The LT didn't even acknowledge CK.

LT isnt part of incredible hercules comics as stated by pak

Originally posted by zopzop
Recently, though not as recent as his Sentry fight, he threw down with the Beyonder (who he extracted by force from Kosmos).

The fight was wrecking havoc across ALL space and time simultaneously. Just as MM was going to kill the Beyonder, Kubik steps in and begs him not to. Not for Beyonder's sake but for the sake of the multiverse (killing a being of that level of power would wreck havoc with creation). Keep in mind this was POST ret-con MM and Beyonder! Recently? naw

The battle you mentioned happened in Fantastic Four Annual #27, which was released in 1994. "Recently" =/= 17+ years ago. g007-psyduck

Originally posted by Galan007
Recently? naw

The battle you mentioned happened in Fantastic Four Annual #27, which was released in 1994. "Recently" =/= 17+ years ago. g007-psyduck

Well it's relatively recently

Point is it was post ret-con so MM and Beyonder are still capable of some super awesome feats. PS the Spiderman Secret Wars behind the scenes issue kinda backed up that even post ret-con MM/Beyonder are powerful.

Originally posted by stan5677
He thought he couldn't control organic matter.
Um, OK? Regardless, he was incapable of doing it at the time. Psychological or not, it was a limit.

Originally posted by zopzop
Point is it was post ret-con so MM and Beyonder are still capable of some super awesome feats. I know. I just like being overly literal sometimes.

Anyway, 17 years ago Owen may have been written as quite the powerhouse. However, his "most recent" incarnation (referring to Dark Reign) was not nearly as powerful. That version would lose horribly here.

Originally posted by zopzop
The LT didn't even acknowledge CK.

Here are the reasons why LT didn't fight the Chaos King.

1.Athena stated in Chaos War#4 that even if the Chaos King succeeded in his mission to end all things, another creation event will happen.Hence Athena's own words "existence can try again and get it right this time!"Because of those reasons, LT would have a reason not to intervene.

2.The fact the Chaos King is Eternity's dark half earns him a place in Living Tribunal's faces.And if Living Tribunal fights the Chaos King, he ends up slapping one of his faces in the process.

3.Living Tribunal's faces must agree on a verdict.We already know Eternity's verdict.Infinity's verdict would be the same as Eternity.Death would probably vote on moving against the Chaos King.Oblivion's verdict would be the same as Eternity.Galactus is already obvious.So its fairly obvious LT wouldn't intervene to stop the Chaos King.This would earn CK a sort of diplomatic immunity.Or is it a Multiversal Immunity?Meaning LT can't arrest CK.

Although I will say LT would beat CK.

most recent MM would get stomp by CK..PR MM would crap all over CK..

Originally posted by Igniz
Here are the reasons why LT didn't fight the Chaos King.

1.Athena stated in Chaos War#4 that even if the Chaos King succeeded in his mission to end all things, another creation event will happen.Hence Athena's own words "existence can try again and get it right this time!"Because of those reasons, LT would have a reason not to intervene.

2.The fact the Chaos King is Eternity's dark half earns him a place in Living Tribunal's faces.And if Living Tribunal fights the Chaos King, he ends up slapping one of his faces in the process.

3.Living Tribunal's faces must agree on a verdict.We already know Eternity's verdict.Infinity's verdict would be the same as Eternity.Death would probably vote on moving against the Chaos King.Oblivion's verdict would be the same as Eternity.Galactus is already obvious.So its fairly obvious LT wouldn't intervene to stop the Chaos King.This would earn CK a sort of diplomatic immunity.Or is it a Multiversal Immunity?Meaning LT can't arrest CK.

Although I will say LT would beat CK.
This is basically true... in general, LT will not fight abstracts because they are simply performing their designated function. Rather, you can say he intervenes when outside entities disrupt these natural functions.

and reece loses here

Originally posted by Igniz
Here are the reasons why LT didn't fight the Chaos King.

2.The fact the Chaos King is Eternity's dark half earns him a place in Living Tribunal's faces.And if Living Tribunal fights the Chaos King, he ends up slapping one of his faces in the process.

Although I will say LT would beat CK.

Wait... What? Are you saying mikaboshi is one of the living tribunals faces?

And you are saying that while powerful the living tribunal would still beat chaos king?

Originally posted by zopzop
Molecule Man is all over the place power wise. Recently, though not as recent as his Sentry fight, he threw down with the Beyonder (who he extracted by force from Kosmos).

The fight was wrecking havoc across ALL space and time simultaneously. Just as MM was going to kill the Beyonder, Kubik steps in and begs him not to. Not for Beyonder's sake but for the sake of the multiverse (killing a being of that level of power would wreck havoc with creation). Keep in mind this was POST ret-con MM and Beyonder!

If it's that Molecule Man, CK is toast.

I remember that. Also their fight caused Kryton to blow up and making superman a orphan, at least thats what they alluded to. Their fight spanned publishing companies!!! Lets see CK do that!

Originally posted by rotiart
Wait... What? Are you saying mikaboshi is one of the living tribunals faces?

And you are saying that while powerful the living tribunal would still beat chaos king? all abstracts are part of living tribunals faces,

and he does not fight abstracts because there doing what they are supposed to do ( Ex:chaos king , Abraxas)

people like shuma gorath, molecule man, beyonder, thanos with hotu, are not abstracts (although abstract level) so there actions are not natural thus LT will fight them

I'd go for Chaos King based on what he did to Impossible Man

CK is just to powerful. He'd win this.

Chaos King wins.

You guys must not know what MM just did. You are basing the fight off a low showing against the Sentry. MM forgot how to use his powers and wasn't at his full potential. He trained for months and got back to his potential (multiversal level).

I don't go by low showings but high ones (especially if they are more current).

Originally posted by h1a8
You guys must not know what MM just did. You are basing the fight off a low showing against the Sentry. MM forgot how to use his powers and wasn't at his full potential. He trained for months and got back to his potential (multiversal level).

I don't go by low showings but high ones (especially if they are more current).

What did he just do?

Secret wars MM shits on him.

Current loses.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Secret wars MM shits on him.

Current loses.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Secret wars MM shits on him.

Current loses.

The post Secret Wars MM in the mid 90s also crushes CK.

Originally posted by zopzop
The post Secret Wars MM in the mid 90s also crushes CK.
Based on what? OK he defeated a cube being, who is nothing compared to someone on Eternity's level.

Originally posted by h1a8
You guys must not know what MM just did. You are basing the fight off a low showing against the Sentry. MM forgot how to use his powers and wasn't at his full potential. He trained for months and got back to his potential (multiversal level).

I don't go by low showings but high ones (especially if they are more current).
And when exactly did he do this supposed training? Because as far as I know, that Sentry fight was his most recent appearance.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Based on what? OK he defeated a cube being, who is nothing compared to someone on Eternity's level. Except Owen at that level was waaaaaay above eternity.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Except Owen at that level was waaaaaay above eternity.
Based on what? Defeating a cube being? "rocking" the multiverse (a feat shared by Odin?)

Originally posted by King Kandy
Based on what? Defeating a cube being? "rocking" the multiverse (a feat shared by Odin?)

This "rocking the multiverse" was backed up with on panel evidence : other dimensions, time lines, Watchers going blind, etc...

Kubik mentioning that Beyonder's death would critically affect the entire multiverse.

The LT/Eternity/Chaos/Order calling MM omnipotent and witnessing the battle unfold.

Originally posted by zopzop
This "rocking the multiverse" was backed up with on panel evidence : other dimensions, time lines, Watchers going blind, etc...

Kubik mentioning that Beyonder's death would critically affect the entire multiverse.

The LT/Eternity/Chaos/Order calling MM omnipotent and witnessing the battle unfold.
OK? I still see nothing indicating he is eternity level.

And that's a mere cube being, which we know is far below eternity. So you yourself there, just proved that you don't need to be Eternity level to produce those multiversal effects.

People say Odin is omnipotent all the time. Again show me something he didn't do. Cube beings are below celestials so this really proves nothing.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK? I still see nothing indicating he is eternity level.

And that's a mere cube being, which we know is far below eternity. So you yourself there, just proved that you don't need to be Eternity level to produce those multiversal effects.

People say Odin is omnipotent all the time. Again show me something he didn't do. Cube beings are below celestials so this really proves nothing.

Based on feats, Cube beings >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Celestials. While we're at it based on feats, Cube beings>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Eternity.

But going back to the whole omnipotent thing, who has the LT called omnipotent before? Because that's who was throwing that word around concerning MM.

Owen Reece (as "evil Molecule Man" from FF-Annual #27 is ridiculously powerful.

He was far beyond a Cube being, ... and at one point,
Owen basically told Beyonder he was "infinities" above him.

And their battle not only shook all reality,
but it also warped reality across realities on a "Trans-Multiversal scale"

Which means beyond Multiversal ...

Anyhow this is how it all transpired.


http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718044_MMq.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718069_MM2.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718091_MM3.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718104_MM4.jpg



http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718116_MM5.jpghttp://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718155_MM6.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718164_MM7.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718170_MM8.jpg


This is incredible:

At the end of the issue,
"the Time Variance Authority" who operate literally on an Omniversal level,
are dealing with the madness Molecule Man and Beyonder's battle did
to possibly billions or more Timelines.


http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718178_MM9.jpg

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718200_MM10.jpg

He's mentioning ridiculously huge numbers before entering the office,
and then aside from that the other Timelines defined by paper work
shows the scale of affect Beyonder and Molecule had across All Creation.

Actually "trans-multiversal" means "across the multiverse". Like a trans-Atlantic flight is across the Atlantic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Owen Reece (as "evil Molecule Man" from FF-Annual #27 is ridiculously powerful.

He was far beyond a Cube being, ... and at one point,
Owen basically told Beyonder he was "infinities" above him.

And their battle not only shook all reality,
but it also warped reality across realities on a "Trans-Multiversal scale"

Which means beyond Multiversal ...

Anyhow this is how it all transpired.


http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718044_MMq.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718069_MM2.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718091_MM3.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718104_MM4.jpg



http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718116_MM5.jpghttp://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718155_MM6.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718164_MM7.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718170_MM8.jpg


This is incredible:

At the end of the issue,
"the Time Variance Authority" who operate literally on an Omniversal level,
are dealing with the madness Molecule Man and Beyonder's battle did
to possibly billions or more Timelines.


http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718178_MM9.jpg

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/7718200_MM10.jpg

He's mentioning ridiculously huge numbers before entering the office,
and then aside from that the other Timelines defined by paper work
shows the scale of affect Beyonder and Molecule had across All Creation.

About time masters!

Also 3rd one of the 1st group of scans proves that the collateral damage of the fight between them created Superman the man he is today...

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Also 3rd one of the 1st group of scans proves that the collateral damage of the fight between them created Superman the man he is today...

OMG! I just now noticed that. LOL.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually "trans-multiversal" means "across the multiverse". Like a trans-Atlantic flight is across the Atlantic.

It could also mean "beyond" aka beyond the Atlantic, beyond the multiverse :
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?lextype=3&search=trans

So both of you are right. IMHO it was both "across the multiverse and beyond"

Superman... Lol. I never noticed before either

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually "trans-multiversal" means "across the multiverse". Like a trans-Atlantic flight is across the Atlantic.
http://i.imgur.com/BRGIt.png

Transsexual.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually "trans-multiversal" means "across the multiverse". Like a trans-Atlantic flight is across the Atlantic. Considering there was nothing indicative of anything beyond the multiverse being affected, I'll go with this interpretation.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Also 3rd one of the 1st group of scans proves that the collateral damage of the fight between them created Superman the man he is today... Yeah I pointed that out a few years ago... Hope you weren't being serious about Owen/Beyonder literally creating Superman, though.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't go by low showings but high ones (especially if they are more current). lol

"I completely ignore low showings, but only go by high ones, thus distorting a character's average feats."

Excellent.

post retcon molecule man at the height of his power wins.

Originally posted by Harbinger
lol

"I completely ignore low showings, but only go by high ones, thus distorting a character's average feats."

Excellent.

That's how he rolls.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That's how he rolls.

More like how he trolls... 

ZING!

Originally posted by Astner

http://i.imgur.com/BRGIt.png


To support the fact that it was beyond the Multiverse,
we also have the writer including the Omniverse in the story
via narration & via cameo appearances by the Time Variance Authority.

http://s1d5.turboimagehost.com/t/7738957_MM1.jpg

"in all the myriad MultiverseS"



In that issue,
the Living Tribunal also called Owen Reece one of the most powerful being's in All Creation.

So, imagine his unlimited side (real Molecule Man)

That aside,

The Time Variance Authority
(who's headquarters is as long as the Omniverse itself) yes, literally ...
and operate on an Omniversal scale,
were depicted by the artist/writer as having their work cut out for them due to what Molecule Man/Beyonder did.

+++

Also ...

This particular detail imo,
is a perspective from the writer concerning how FAR the warping of reality went.

http://s1d5.turboimagehost.com/t/7738955_MM.jpg

That even Superman was created from it.

Chaos King wins.

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://s1d5.turboimagehost.com/t/7738957_MM1.jpg

"in all the myriad MultiverseS"
The intent is unambiguous I don't see how anyone could construct a coherent argument against it without somehow discrediting the canonicity of the comic itself.

Though I have to admit that I find it odd that beings supposedly weaker to cube beings are capable of channeling such power when cube beings themselves are supposedly beneath celestials.

Originally posted by Astner
The intent is unambiguous I don't see how anyone could construct a coherent argument against it without somehow discrediting the canonicity of the comic itself.

Though I have to admit that I find it odd that beings supposedly weaker to cube beings are capable of channeling such power when cube beings themselves are supposedly beneath celestials.

This was reinforced later during a Spider-man "behind the scenes" Secret Wars tie in. Even post retcon, the Beyonder aspect of Kosmos and the "evil" Molecule Man aspect of Owen are multiversal level beings. Check Mr. Master's Beyonder Respect Thread -
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=412978&pagenumber=6. Scroll down to Galan007's post.

Originally posted by Harbinger
lol

"I completely ignore low showings, but only go by high ones, thus distorting a character's average feats."

Excellent. Exactly. That's how everyone (or nearly everyone) here does it. They just don't come out and say it.
You get arguments of Odin busting galaxies and Thor tanking Celestial beams and Hulk doing XYZ. Everyone here who argues their favorite character is guilty of this. IMO, it is valid since the rules say Full capacity, characters fight to the best of their ability AS SHOWN before. The only thing that matters is if the feat is PIS (like Spiderman vs. Firelord). If a character performs at a level several magnitudes above their average then we can consider PIS if the character didn't perform on that level multiple times (IMO at least 3) with a minimum of X appearances.

A weaker version of Hulk destroying an asteroid bigger than the Earth is PIS since he has no feats nearly in that vicinity and by the fact that Hulk's strength is based off anger and rage. He couldn't have possibly got more angry than any Hulk in existence at that single moment.

Originally posted by h1a8
A weaker version of Hulk destroying an asteroid bigger than the Earth is PIS since he has no feats nearly in that vicinity and by the fact that Hulk's strength is based off anger and rage. He couldn't have possibly got more angry than any Hulk in existence at that single moment. the asteroid was uninhabited and threatening earth, you can't really replicate that kind of context more than once.