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http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-18/world/afghanistan.us.taliban_1_afghan-president-hamid-karzai-afghan-constitution-afghan-forces?_s=PM:WORLD

The United States is involved in peace talks with the Taliban, Afghan President Hamid Karzai told a youth group in Kabul on Saturday.

"Peace negotiations with the Taliban and with other countrymen have been started," Karzai told reporters after his earlier announcement on state TV. "Those who accept the constitution, freedom, democracy and development of Afghanistan can take part in this negotiation."

Representatives of the government and insurgents have been in touch, but there have been no high-level meetings, Karzai said. He added there was no specific agenda.

A senior U.S. source said there were contacts but nothing serious or substantial enough to be considered negotiations. U.S. statements are typically restrained, the source said, plus, "This is Karzai being Karzai." The source could not be named because of the sensitivity of the subject.

The U.S. State Department indicated it would support reconciliation talks in Afghanistan.

"We must help create conditions necessary to enable political settlement among the Afghan people," department spokeswoman Megan Mattson said. "This includes reconciling those insurgents who are willing to renounce al Qaeda, forsake violence and adhere to the Afghan constitution."

The U.N. Security Council split a key sanctions list on al Qaeda and the Taliban on Friday with an eye toward reconciliation in Afghanistan.

The move makes it easier to add and remove people and entities from the sanctions lists. The council also established specific criteria for having an individual delisted. The vote was unanimous.

"It sends a clear signal that now is the time for the Taliban to come forward and join the political process," Mark Lyall Grant, the British ambassador to the United Nations, told the council.

At a news conference with Karzai earlier this month, outgoing U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates talked about making changes in Afghanistan.

"I believe that if we can hold on to the territory that has been recaptured from the Taliban ourselves and the Afghan forces and perhaps expand that security, that we will be in a position toward the end of this year to perhaps have a successful opening with respect to reconciliation, or at least be in a position where we can say we've turned a corner here in Afghanistan," Gates said, referring to political reconciliation talks.

Gates made the statement during his last visit to Afghanistan as defense secretary. Karzai awarded Gates the Wazir Akbar Khan medal, the highest governmental award.




What do you guys think? Is it about time? Or a waste of time?

Sounds like an attempt to sweep things under the rug. But if it leads to withdrawal, i'm happy anyway.

Lulz Karzai.

Wow...kinda makes the billions of dollars and massive loss of lives seem pretty pointless eh?

No negotiating with terrorists, eh?

the Taliban aren't terrorists, they're "armed insurgents"

They're freedom fighters.

Wheee!!!

there is no single "taliban" entity, rather a number of tribal "Talibans"

talks with some, if successful, might only curb the violence. Much like in Gaza, there is now a culture of that sort of thing in NW Pakistan, and regardless of the government that is left in Kabul, these people will continue to attack, even if "Taliban" leaders tell them to stop.

Blaxian, 'freedom fighters' who stone people to death, cut off noses, restrict women's basic rights, live by extreme Sharia law . . . do some more research. Nearly forgot too - suicide bombers. Hmm . . .

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Blaxian, 'freedom fighters' who stone people to death, cut off noses, restrict women's basic rights, live by extreme Sharia law . . . do some more research. Nearly forgot too - suicide bombers. Hmm . . .

- torture
- execution
- have less progressive views on women
- extreme religiosity
- are willing to die for their cause

...

I have trouble thinking of an army on the planet that doesn't fit most, if not all, of these, especially if we allow more general than specific definitions

The American Armed forces, for instance, rewards soldiers who fight on in the face of unavoidable death. How this differs from a suicide bomber... well, I'm sure you'll provide the details.

Originally posted by inimalist


The American Armed forces, for instance, rewards soldiers who fight on in the face of unavoidable death. How this differs from a suicide bomber... well, I'm sure you'll provide the details.
Suicide bombings make for shit movies.

Heroic last stands are the stuff of legend.

Originally posted by inimalist
The American Armed forces, for instance, rewards soldiers who fight on in the face of unavoidable death. How this differs from a suicide bomber... well, I'm sure you'll provide the details.

Hmm, that's interesting.

The soldier probably doesn't plan to die when he wakes up that morning. I think that can be set aside as irrelevant.

The soldier is defending what he believes in to his last breath. Of course the suicide bomber is doing the same thing.

The soldier, however, is fighting rather than just dying. I tend to respect the effort involved in a valiant last stand but the ultimate result is the same (unless the means justify the ends?).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Hmm, that's interesting.

The soldier probably doesn't plan to die when he wakes up that morning. I think that can be set aside as irrelevant.

The soldier is defending what he believes in to his last breath. Of course the suicide bomber is doing the same thing.

The soldier, however, is fighting rather than just dying. I tend to respect the effort involved in a valiant last stand but the ultimate result is the same (unless the means justify the ends?).

Good Post.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The soldier, however, is fighting rather than just dying. I tend to respect the effort involved in a valiant last stand but the ultimate result is the same (unless the means justify the ends?).

well, yes, but the suicide bomber is fighting as well

I think the best example would be the suicide bombing of military checkpoints. If the military strategy is, "we need to take out that checkpoint", but you are an insurgent group against the strongest military on the planet, a suicide bomb is a far better combat strategy than is an assault of any kind.

The knowledge that they are going to die, to me, is moot, especially as there are numerous examples of soldiers standing and fighting when they knew the end was inevitable. The Alamo or Custard's forces come to mind.

I suppose if we define "fighting" as "conventional warfare", sure, but I see suicide bombing as more of a tactic of fighting, rather than something different from fighting all together

And what about suicide bombers who target civilians?

What about Blackhawk helicopter pilots who knowingly launch missiles into civilian buildings?

EDIT: in the case of that type of suicide bombing, the target is more of a psychological nature. Civilian bombings, in asymmetric warfare at least, are a tactic that attempts to dissuade the more powerful army from fighting or prevent civilians from assisting the stronger power. If the point is, "Americans don't have suicide bombers who target civilians", ok, sure... but so what? they don't need to resort to asymmetric tactics. They certainly do have people willing to give their lives in combat, and they do have people who will deliberately attack civilians, and I imagine there is at least some overlap between the groups. tbh, I think the closest analogy to this would be the destruction of civilian infrastructure to prevent the army from being able to fight, while also essentially grinding any local economy to a halt.

What about the ozone layer?

What about something even more obscure and unrelated?

What about all the independent contractors on the second Death Star when it exploded?

The Rebel Alliance were little more than terrorist. The "you're not an innocent civilian if you help the enemy in any fashion" line of Bin Laden's fit's here.

So any Country/Alliance that rises up and tries to unseat who is in power are terrorists then?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What about all the independent contractors on the second Death Star when it exploded?

all dead

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So any Country/Alliance that rises up and tries to unseat who is in power are terrorists then?

No, didn't say that. Just pointing out that the Rebel Alliance had a like-mind of Osama's.

Do you think that guy who was hanging dry-wall in the Death Star (2) as a means to feed his family of six gave a shit about the political battle between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance? No, he was just making a living the best way he knew how. But the Rebel Alliance killed him for it.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, didn't say that. Just pointing out that the Rebel Alliance had a like-mind of Osama's.

Do you think that guy who was hanging dry-wall in the Death Star (2) as a means to feed his family of six gave a shit about the political battle between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance? No, he was just making a living the best way he knew how. But the Rebel Alliance killed him for it. Wrong. Those contractors knew the risk involved.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What about all the independent contractors on the second Death Star when it exploded?

And everyone who must have been killed by the debris.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And everyone who must have been killed by the debris. The Ewoks?

Originally posted by Robtard
No, didn't say that. Just pointing out that the Rebel Alliance had a like-mind of Osama's.

Do you think that guy who was hanging dry-wall in the Death Star (2) as a means to feed his family of six gave a shit about the political battle between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance? No, he was just making a living the best way he knew how. But the Rebel Alliance killed him for it.
Lol George Lucas actually addressed the Clerks reference in one of the commentaries.

He said the Empire probably used Geonosians...which I suppose is his way of saying it's alright because killing hive mind creatures is okay...or something.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Wrong. Those contractors knew the risk involved.

The same thing can be said when terrorist kill civilians. Unless you live under a rock, you're aware as an American that there are people/groups who want to attack America.

Get blown up on a plane, it's not the terrorist fault, you knew the risk flying.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol George Lucas actually addressed the Clerks reference in one of the commentaries.

He said the Empire probably used Geonosians...which I suppose is his way of saying it's alright because killing hive mind creatures is okay...or something.

No, GL was showing what an racist ass he really is.

In his mind. Geonosians = unskilled South of the border immigrants, aka "Mexicans".

Originally posted by inimalist
there is no single "taliban" entity, rather a number of tribal "Talibans"

talks with some, if successful, might only curb the violence. Much like in Gaza, there is now a culture of that sort of thing in NW Pakistan, and regardless of the government that is left in Kabul, these people will continue to attack, even if "Taliban" leaders tell them to stop.

Couldn't agree more with this. It will happen, U.S. peace talks or not.

It has been this way for generations and it is certaintly not going to stop now, (though the revolutions in the Arabic world are beginning to crack that mould)

inimalist, the reason those Blackhawks and minibirds were firing into those buildings is because they were taking fire from them. Would you actually just stay there and practically say to them 'kill me, kill me.' I've read the documentation from the battle and it states, the militia had taken over those buildings. Civilians casaulties were few because the entire friggen city was fighting including men, women and children. They were doped up on a drug called Khat.

You logic seems flawed to me. I guess the guys who flew the planes into WTC and Pentagon were freedom fighters. Guys who lop heads off with a machette in Iraq and Afghanistan and then post it on youtube are freedom fighters. Have you watched the documentary Firebase: Restrepo? al Qeada and the Taliban give $5 to boys and young men to fight for them. Are those freedom fighters or COWARDS!?

The Alamo, 60 actually escaped only to be captured by the Mexican Army and executed on Gen. Santa Anna's orders. Live today, fight tomorrow. Those 'freedom fighters' have been manipulated by cowardly men who refuse to fight themselves.

Karzai has a program to give jobs to taliban if they will defect. Apparently it is somewhat effective.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
inimalist, the reason those Blackhawks and minibirds were firing into those buildings is because they were taking fire from them. Would you actually just stay there and practically say to them 'kill me, kill me.' I've read the documentation from the battle and it states, the militia had taken over those buildings. Civilians casaulties were few because the entire friggen city was fighting including men, women and children. They were doped up on a drug called Khat.
lol, khat is one of the mildest drugs there is and is a social activity in many countries... so that's basically like saying "that guy was having a cig, so obviously I had to kill him".

Not really, considering he made a point of saying that those people were actually shooting guns at US soldiers, the drugs being mild or not.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
inimalist, the reason those Blackhawks and minibirds were firing into those buildings is because they were taking fire from them. Would you actually just stay there and practically say to them 'kill me, kill me.' I've read the documentation from the battle and it states, the militia had taken over those buildings. Civilians casaulties were few because the entire friggen city was fighting including men, women and children. They were doped up on a drug called Khat.

I find it really hard to believe that they were taking fire from the Palestine Hotel.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Not really, considering he made a point of saying that those people were actually shooting guns at US soldiers, the drugs being mild or not.
No, he said that people from the building were shooting at them... but because of khat use, "the entire friggen city" could be considered their enemies.

Robert Gates said something on the Newshour about his belief that the Taliban could one day be turned into an ally against terrorist groups like Al Quaeda.

To me that just hearkens to the twilight years of the Roman Empire where they juggled barbarian tribes against one another and just ended up giving them the training and resources to pay back the Romans for playing them and abusing them.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Robert Gates said something on the Newshour about his belief that the Taliban could one day be turned into an ally against terrorist groups like Al Quaeda.

To me that just hearkens to the twilight years of the Roman Empire where they juggled barbarian tribes against one another and just ended up giving them the training and resources to pay back the Romans for playing them and abusing them.

Guess who trained Bin Laden.
Guess who armed Saddam.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Guess who trained Bin Laden.
Guess who armed Saddam.
yup