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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out

Gotta go with Qui-gon on this one. Dooku felt like Obi-wan was pretty not impressive. He seemed to hold Qui-gon in much higher reguard. Plus, it was stated many times that Qui-gon would have been on the council had he been less of a maverick.

It would be a close match, but I wanna hold Qui-Gon to a higher standard than AotC Kenobi. Give him three years of war and Soresu mastery and it'll be a different story, but not yet.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Plus, it was stated many times that Qui-gon would have been on the council had he been less of a maverick. Which doesn't really mean a whole lot. A Jedi's power, and/or skill with a lightsaber, had little to no bearing on why they were chosen to be on the council.

Qui-Gon was an excellent diplomat - that's likely why he was a good candidate.

But he was also noted as being on a level playing field with Mace at the time, using a completely aggressive style with very little defense emphasis. If it's one thing that can make a fledgling Soresu practitioner disadvantaged, it's being blitzed by someone who is both aggressive and clearly on a tier above most Jedi Masters. Darth Maul's defeat of Qui-Gon only speaks to Maul's competence, it does not take away from Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Which doesn't really mean a whole lot. A Jedi's power, and/or skill with a lightsaber, had little to no bearing on why they were chosen to be on the council.

I think connection to the Force (i.e. Power in the Force) definetely has something to do with it. I doubt its a coincidence that the 2 heads of the Jedi order are also the 2 most powerful jedi in the galaxy.

Or that Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto and Plo Koon (all great Jedi warriors) were on the council.

Remember the Council has to use their combined connection to the Force to try and see the future, any potential threats e.t.c.

Originally posted by Galan007
Qui-Gon was an excellent diplomat - that's likely why he was a good candidate.

There are many more quotes on his Sword skills than his diplomatic skills.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It would be a close match, but I wanna hold Qui-Gon to a higher standard than AotC Kenobi. Give him three years of war and Soresu mastery and it'll be a different story, but not yet.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think connection to the Force (i.e. Power in the Force) definetely has something to do with it. I doubt its a coincidence that the 2 heads of the Jedi order are also the 2 most powerful jedi in the galaxy.

Or that Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto and Plo Koon (all great Jedi warriors) were on the council. I doubt very highly that the Jedi say "wow, you're powerful! Join our club." Yes, some of the people on the council were powerful, but that isn't why they were chosen to be on the council. cwatimeen?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There are many more quotes on his Sword skills than his diplomatic skills. ...And?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think connection to the Force (i.e. Power in the Force) definetely has something to do with it. I doubt its a coincidence that the 2 heads of the Jedi order are also the 2 most powerful jedi in the galaxy.

Or that Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto and Plo Koon (all great Jedi warriors) were on the council.

Remember the Council has to use their combined connection to the Force to try and see the future, any potential threats e.t.c. The very existence of Coleman Trebor really casts doubts on the prerequisites for High Council membership. Here's the reason for his place from Wookiee---they cite the "Official Star Wars Fact File 106" as their source, so if anyone has it, great:

"The Council chose him because of his myriad contacts around the galaxy, and because of his abilities in dealing with other species. He was often sent to social events to act as a representative of the Council, and was a spokesbeing for the Jedi Order, often directly speaking to the media."


Power and skill be damned, this guy's connected!

^ Fair enough. They'd obviously want people who'd be useful being in the top ranks. A well connected guy obviously would be. But I would still assume the most useful Jedi (for the majority of the council) would be those with the deepest connection to the Force.

After all its the Council that has to sense threats, see the future e.t.c. So unless theres reason to assume Qui-Gon would have been particularly useful for another reason, Im guessing the main Jedi character of Episode 1 was probably pretty powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
...And?

Point was im not sure where your getting the idea that he would be on the council for his diplomatic skills.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Point was im not sure where your getting the idea that he would be on the council for his diplomatic skills. Personality is one of the greatest determining factors in selecting a Jedi to be on the council - power really isn't a prerequisite. If power were an important factor in choosing council members, Qui-Gon's power over the force would have taken precedence over his headstrong/stubborn demeanor (which was obviously not the case.)

I mean, why do you think the Jedi were extremely hesitant to have Anakin on the council? It certainly wasn't due to a lack of power. :/

It's clearly because he hates sand.

Originally posted by Galan007
Personality is one of the greatest determining factors in selecting a Jedi to be on the council - power really isn't a prerequisite. If power were an important factor in choosing council members, Qui-Gon's power over the force would have taken precedence over his headstrong/stubborn demeanor (which was obviously not the case.)

I mean, why do you think the Jedi were extremely hesitant to have Anakin on the council? It certainly wasn't due to a lack of power. :/

Oh no theres no doubt if a Jedi lacks certain traits: wisdom, patience, unwillingness to follow the code, that they will not be allowed on the council.

Thats why Qui-Gon was not allowed. And yet Obi-Wan says if he just followed the code He Would be on the Council. Why? Iv always thought the reasonable assumption is that he's a capable Jedi, with a good connection to the Force.

Same with Anakin. Clearly he was lacking certain traits to be on the council. But you really think if he matured he wouldn't be?? Someone that Powerful certainly would be.

You have to remember also Anakin wasn't a Master yet. Only Masters are allowed on the council. And power alone doesn't make one a Master.

My money is on Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh no theres no doubt if a Jedi lacks certain traits: wisdom, patience, unwillingness to follow the code, that they will not be allowed on the council.

Thats why Qui-Gon was not allowed. And yet Obi-Wan says if he just followed the code He Would be on the Council. Why? Iv always thought the reasonable assumption is that he's a capable Jedi, with a good connection to the Force.

Same with Anakin. Clearly he was lacking certain traits to be on the council. But you really think if he matured he wouldn't be?? Someone that Powerful certainly would be.

You have to remember also Anakin wasn't a Master yet. Only Masters are allowed on the council. And power alone doesn't make one a Master. You essentially just rephrased exactly what I said. So I agree.

G007
So I agree.

Palpatine possesses him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Only Masters are allowed on the council.Ki-Adi-Mundi was only a Knight when he was appointed to the Council.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ki-Adi-Mundi was only a Knight when he was appointed to the Council. So was Anakin.

Originally posted by Galan007
So was Anakin. Admittedly against their will and better judgement.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Admittedly against their will and better judgement. Semantics. sly

I think there is a quote floating around somewhere that said besides Yoda and Dooku, Qui-gon was the only Jedi capable of sparring with Mace on equal ground.

I remember that. Used to get brought up a lot.

Probably WAY before Mace Windu was the lightsaber beast that he became. And sparring is a far cry from actual combat. Moreover, Mace wouldn't have utilized Vaapad during a mere sparring session because of it's pull to the darkside.

That quote was referring to TPM and earlier Mace Windu. I don't think he and Bulq had developed, or at least finished their development of Vaapad then.

I have never been able to find that statement mentioned in any canon sources. So unless someone can post the source (good luck), then it remains little more than a purely fictitious line propagated by Wookiepedia.

I've never even seen it there. If only Gideon were still here. He could solve this quandary!

It was there a year (or so) ago. It seems they've removed it. sneer

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But he was also noted as being on a level playing field with Mace at the time, using a completely aggressive style with very little defense emphasis. If it's one thing that can make a fledgling Soresu practitioner disadvantaged, it's being blitzed by someone who is both aggressive and clearly on a tier above most Jedi Masters. Darth Maul's defeat of Qui-Gon only speaks to Maul's competence, it does not take away from Qui-Gon.

Nicely put.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Probably WAY before Mace Windu was the lightsaber beast that he became. And sparring is a far cry from actual combat. Moreover, Mace wouldn't have utilized Vaapad during a mere sparring session because of it's pull to the darkside.

What Lucien said was correct - Mace wouldn't used Vapaad as of TPM, because it wasn't conceived yet.

Though, had he possesed it, he would have employed it in a sparring match, if only to aid in futhering it's development.

If he were afraid enough of Vapaad's effects that he wouldn't risk employing it in a sparring match, it would have never been developed.

Though that's somewhat obvious.

Bump.angel

Obi wan ftw. he defeated maul when qui gon did not, and then has 10 years of extra experience.

Originally posted by mnat801
Obi wan ftw. he defeated maul when qui gon did not,

TPM Qui-Gon > TPM Obi-Wan. Don't apply A>B>C arguments to PIS/CIS related defeats.

Id give it to Qui Gon barley after along hard duel. Seeing how in TPM Qui Gon seemed to be doing great against Maul intill they got into the confined space in which Jinn was at a disadvantageous do to his style leading to his easy defeat. Before that he was actually winning the fight.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Probably WAY before Mace Windu was the lightsaber beast that he became. And sparring is a far cry from actual combat. Moreover, Mace wouldn't have utilized Vaapad during a mere sparring session because of it's pull to the darkside.

Vaapad was developed during the gap between TPM and AOTC, so yes Qui-Gon was on par with a Vaapadless Mace, in his prime. He was old in TPM though.

Kenobi is more capable but it seems that post PM he didn't focus much on fencing as he trained Anakin Jedi ways in general. Because after confrontation with Dooku just three years later performance of Kenobi and Anakin was boosted a lot.
So Qui-Gon is still tough foe for him at that point.

As for quote that Qui-Gon was on par with Windu. Bullshit. Never happened. Completely made up. Checked it personally.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
TPM Qui-Gon > TPM Obi-Wan. Don't apply A>B>C arguments to PIS/CIS related defeats. this is about AOTC obi wan not TPM obi wan. im stating obi wans feats. you dont tell me what to do, its my opinion and you should respect that

Originally posted by mnat801
this is about AOTC obi wan not TPM obi wan. im stating obi wans feats. you dont tell me what to do, its my opinion and you should respect that You made the insinuation that because Maul died by Obi-Wan's hand, and Qui-Gon died by Maul's hand, that Obi-Wan>Qui-Gon. So no, DP's statement was relevant.


What you were engaging is referred to as A>B>C logic. It's too simplistic in a situation wth variables. The variables here being that Darth Maul defeated both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel. But he died as the result of standing around and being a dumbass.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You made the insinuation that because Maul died by Obi-Wan's hand, and Qui-Gon died by Maul's hand, that Obi-Wan>Qui-Gon. So no, DP's statement was relevant.


What you were engaging is referred to as A>B>C logic. It's too simplistic in a situation wth variables. The variables here being that Darth Maul defeated both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel. But he died as the result of standing around and being a dumbass. Pretty much. It may be simplistic, but its FACT. no, your wrong, maul never DEFEATED kenobi at all. him being force pushed and ALMOST defeated doesnt mean he was defeated. the duel did not finish there. You say he died because he stood around being a dumbass. well, thats exactly why maul was defeated.

Again, go read the novelization. Obi-Wan's little bout of anger didn't help all too much. Maul actually out-dueled him, disarmed him, and dropped him down a hole. Then he let himself die. Obi-Wan was defeated--read: out-dueled/fought/performed. And Maul was killed. The exact same thing happened in RotS between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Maul and Anakin were superior fighters and duelists to Obi-Wan, but they did some plot-induced stupidity that made them die/burn. We don't relive PIS in this forum, only skills matter.


Obi-Wan has less skill than Maul, Qui-Gon, and Anakin.

Originally posted by mnat801
Pretty much. It may be simplistic, but its FACT. no, your wrong, maul never DEFEATED kenobi at all. him being force pushed and ALMOST defeated doesnt mean he was defeated. the duel did not finish there.


The "duel" was finished there. That's why Maul started p***ing about. It was his cockiness that lead to his defeat nothing else. There was certainly no competition in combat abilities.

Obi-Wan was disarmed and defeated in the actual combat. He won in the end by Surprising Maul with Qui-Gon's Lightsaber.

If TPM Obi-Wan was equal or superior to TPM Maul then he wouldn't need to surprise him and he wouldn't need to rely on another Lightsaber conveniently being available which Maul didn't notice.

Heck he wouldn't have got disarmed and thrown down the pit in the first place.

And btw the novel makes it very clear that not only was TPM Obi-Wan weaker than TPM Maul, but he was also weaker than TPM Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Again, go read the novelization. Obi-Wan's little bout of anger didn't help all too much. Maul actually out-dueled him, disarmed him, and dropped him down a hole. Then he let himself die. Obi-Wan was defeated--read: out-dueled/fought/performed. And Maul was killed. The exact same thing happened in RotS between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Maul and Anakin were superior fighters and duelists to Obi-Wan, but they did some plot-induced stupidity that made them die/burn. We don't relive PIS in this forum, only skills matter.


Obi-Wan has less skill than Maul, Qui-Gon, and Anakin. Look, you say maul out dueled, disarmed and dropped obi wan down a hole. correct. is obi won dead? no. he uses skill to come back and defeat maul. he uses a force jump and his knowledge of his surroundings (qui gons blade) to effectively suprise maul. therefore how can you defeat someone that jumps over you and cuts you in half? YES, maul was stupid. but thats what led to his downfall. So obi wan used this to his advantage and ultimately defeated maul.

Originally posted by mnat801
Look, you say maul out dueled, disarmed and dropped obi wan down a hole. correct. is obi won dead? no. he uses skill to come back and defeat maul. he uses a force jump and his knowledge of his surroundings (qui gons blade) to effectively suprise maul. therefore how can you defeat someone that jumps over you and cuts you in half? YES, maul was stupid. but thats what led to his downfall. So obi wan used this to his advantage and ultimately defeated maul. Kay you're not getting the difference between the fight, and the death. Maul was not killed mid duel, he was killed after. He was a superior swordsman and Force user, and Obi-Wan was defeated by him. In a non-lightsaber-duel related attack, Obi killed him.


It'd be like if you and I were boxing and you won the match, and then as you stood gloating victory, I shot you. You still won the match and proved the superior boxer, but I'm the one who survived the encounter.


I... seriously I can't make it any plainer for you, kid. If you don't get it, then... pity.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The "duel" was finished there. That's why Maul started p***ing about. It was his cockiness that lead to his defeat nothing else. There was certainly no competition in combat abilities.

Obi-Wan was disarmed and defeated in the actual combat. He won in the end by Surprising Maul with Qui-Gon's Lightsaber.

If TPM Obi-Wan was equal or superior to TPM Maul then he wouldn't need to surprise him and he wouldn't need to rely on another Lightsaber conveniently being available which Maul didn't notice.

Heck he wouldn't have got disarmed and thrown down the pit in the first place.

And btw the novel makes it very clear that not only was TPM Obi-Wan weaker than TPM Maul, but he was also weaker than TPM Qui-Gon. If there was "no competition" in combat abilities, then there would have been no chance of maul being cut in half.

Obi wan was disarmed, but not defeated. he won in the end due to skill and knowledge, eg knowledge of mauls stupidity, therefore he defeated maul.

Im not saying obi wan was equal or superior to maul, im saying he defeated maul. Again, knowledge of surroundings is a skill, and in this case he knew there was another blade, and maul didnt.

I'm not disagreeing with with your last statement, however, what happened in TPM still happened. And so i am basing this as well as the extra 10 years experience, and I in my opinion AOTC obi wan would defeat qui gon jinn. If it was TPM qui gon vs TPM obi wan, I would say qui gon would win.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kay you're not getting the difference between the fight, and the death. Maul was not killed mid duel, he was killed after. He was a superior swordsman and Force user, and Obi-Wan was defeated by him. In a non-lightsaber-duel related attack, Obi killed him.


It'd be like if you and I were boxing and you won the match, and then as you stood gloating victory, I shot you. You still won the match and proved the superior boxer, but I'm the one who survived the encounter.


I... seriously I can't make it any plainer for you, kid. If you don't get it, then... pity. And your still not getting what im talking about. im not talking about the fight OR the death, im talking about how obi wan DEFEATED maul. You refer to a boxing match. But instead of your example, its more like this:

boxer a knocks boxer b to the ground, and taunts him. but then b gets up quickly, and ko's boxer a while he is taunting, resulting in a win.

I do understand where your coming from, and i do understand your example. But personally my example is better because in the kenobi vs maul fight, who says that maul automatically defeated obi wan when he fell into the hole and almost died? as seen in TPM, obi wan never gave up, and whether the duel ended there or not is irrelevant because in the end, obi wan clearly defeated maul.

As i have been trying to say earlier, at that point in time, yes maul could been the better swordsman/force user. However in a fight it does not come down to simply those 2 factors, it includes more, eg surprise attacks, intelligence, etc. not every boxer wins because he is the biggest and strongest.

And dont talk to me like im a little kid, because that itself is just childish, and you dont know who i am.

Alright, I'll grant you this: the duel wasn't finished yet. But Maul was still superior. I'm sorry if you think moments of PIS are used in these vs. fights (they're not), but Maul's death was PIS. It's the example of PIS. Ditto for Anakin's little jump in RotS. We measure and argue canon feats, and the novel (which is more canon than your opinion) makes it clear. Maul>Obi-Wan. Maul>Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by mnat801
And your still not getting what im talking about. im not talking about the fight OR the death, im talking about how obi wan DEFEATED maul.

Which had nothing to do with combat ability. Without Qui-Gon there he never could have won. Hell he wouldn't have survived 30 seconds without Qui-Gon there.

Originally posted by mnat801
boxer a knocks boxer b to the ground, and taunts him. but then b gets up quickly, and ko's boxer a while he is taunting, resulting in a win.

It's more like a fencing match, where fencer A beats, disarms and throws away fencer B's sword.

Then while fencer B is lying on the floor weaponless, fencer A stands there taunting him, and fencer B quickly gets the sword of spectator A(without fencer A noticing because he's too busy gloating) and then stabs fencer A with spectator A's sword.

That really wouldn't prove fencer B being superior or even equal to fencer A in any way whatsoever. He just took advantage of fencer A's cockiness. It mean's nothing, except fencer A lost due to cockiness. Nothing to do with skill whatsoever.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Alright, I'll grant you this: the duel wasn't finished yet. But Maul was still superior. I'm sorry if you think moments of PIS are used in these vs. fights (they're not), but Maul's death was PIS. It's the example of PIS. Ditto for Anakin's little jump in RotS. We measure and argue canon feats, and the novel (which is more canon than your opinion) makes it clear. Maul>Obi-Wan. Maul>Qui-Gon. Like ive said before, i never argued that obi wan was superior to maul, because i agree that in a 1 on 1 that tpm maul would defeat tpm obi wan. what im trying to get across is that the fact that obi wan did defeat maul, whether maul was paying attention at the end or not. and what exactly does PIS mean?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which had nothing to do with combat ability. Without Qui-Gon there he never could have won. Hell he wouldn't have survived 30 seconds without Qui-Gon there.



It's more like a fencing match, where fencer A beats, disarms and throws away fencer B's sword.

Then while fencer B is lying on the floor weaponless, fencer A stands there taunting him, and fencer B quickly gets the sword of spectator A(without fencer A noticing because he's too busy gloating) and then stabs fencer A with spectator A's sword.

That really wouldn't prove fencer B being superior or even equal to fencer A in any way whatsoever. He just took advantage of fencer A's cockiness. It mean's nothing, except fencer A lost due to cockiness. Nothing to do with skill whatsoever. Your right. without qui gon he most likely wouldnt have won. Thats correct. but that didnt happen. obi wan still defeated maul, even if it was with the help of qui gon, and mauls stupidity.

you say getting the sword of a spectator, but qui gon was part of the duel, and so was his sword. therefore you cant use a spectator for your example.

And his victory over maul didnt, have any thing to do with combat abilities, but it still had something to do with other abilities.

Originally posted by mnat801


you say getting the sword of a spectator, but qui gon was part of the duel, and so was his sword. therefore you cant use a spectator for your example.

So if Qui-Gon and his sword were part of the duel then Obi-Wan won the fight only with Qui-Gon's aid. Without Qui-Gon there you've already agreed Obi-Wan would have lost.

Originally posted by mnat801
And his victory over maul didnt, have any thing to do with combat abilities, but it still had something to do with other abilities.

What other abilities? He took advantage of Maul's cockiness. What ability is that?

Originally posted by mnat801
Like ive said before, i never argued that obi wan was superior to maul, because i agree that in a 1 on 1 that tpm maul would defeat tpm obi wan. what im trying to get across is that the fact that obi wan did defeat maul, whether maul was paying attention at the end or not. and what exactly does PIS mean? Plot Induced Stupidity. It's those moments when a character does something that you know they wouldn't do... until the plot required it of them. So Maul just standing around like a dumbass while he watches Obi-Wan plan and execute his comeback--- and not even move. He was so skilled and capable up until he wasn't, and it's because the plot needed Obi-Wan to win. So... "have a win". Ditto for Anakin trying to jump over Obi-Wan in RotS, when a simple hop onto the embankment in front of should have sufficed. Or arguably, Palpatine zapping Lightning at Luke and not even sensing the obvious conflict in Vader right beside him. The plot needed him to do at Vader's hand, so he did.


Moments like that aren't factored in to these Vs. threads. They're too random and variable, and too reliant of very specific situations (like the plot obviously, or the setting [reactor room in TPM or the Lazy Lava River ride in RotS) to have any place in a feat-based argument.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ditto for Anakin trying to jump over Obi-Wan in RotS, when a simple hop onto the embankment in front of should have sufficed.

Or worst case scenario he could have just stayed there and it would have been a stalemate.

So yeah there was absolutely no reason for him to get his limbs chopped off except for the convenience of the plot.

Or he could have jumped a8ove him higher, so Keno8i couldn't attack him.

8ut then, it was pretty in line with Anakins arrogance and recklessness, and his rage was clouding his judgement. I'd call it CIS myself.

I think CIS on behalf of the plot (Vader needed to lose) would be PIS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So if Qui-Gon and his sword were part of the duel then Obi-Wan won the fight only with Qui-Gon's aid. Without Qui-Gon there you've already agreed Obi-Wan would have lost.



What other abilities? He took advantage of Maul's cockiness. What ability is that? Yes, I agree. I mean his knowledge of surroundings as an intellectual ability. Most other people would have just given up, but kenobis smarts and determination gave him the win against maul. Yeah taking advantage of mauls stupidity was not really an ability, but still a daring move, considering the notion of higher ground.