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Background: Feeling violated after their last holo-transmission in which Darth Sidious commanded him to engage in an impromptu performance of Sidious's favorite song (Kelis's hit single, "Milkshake", the good Count Dooku aka Darth Tyranus has decided to accelerate his plans and topple his Master by a surgical strike to Coruscant.

There, accompanied by 25 MagnaGuards and 25 commando droids, Count Dooku and Savage Opress infiltrate the Senate building in pursuit of the Chancellor. As the droids tie up clone troops and other security personnel, the aging Sith Lord and his newly christened apprentice break into Palpatine's office.

As Dooku declares that his Master's milkshake has indeed brought all the boys to the yard (with decidedly less pleasant intentions), Darth Sidious retrieves his lightsaber and battle is met.

Incarnations of the characters are during the events of the Savage Opress arc.

Sidious gets pimp-slapped.





































Or... he actually wins this.

So he either loses... or... h-he wins?

These are two outcomes I had never considered. mmm

Yes,... in a fight there are typically such outcomes to be expected....
Who knew?



































Alright, first he gets pimp-slapped, which angers him, a bit....
Then he wins.

Expect that the good Count and his apprentice have but a few critical minutes to slay the Commander-in-Sith before the droids are overwhelmed and the place is swarming with clone troops, Jedi, your mom, etc. This isn't necessarily a disadvantage, since few duels last longer than that.

Likewise, the 'office' in question is Palpatine's primary office in which we see the final moments of his duel with Mace in ROTS, not the smaller, private office.

Sidious keeps Savage on his ass using force lightning, and would probably injure Savage enough to completely take him out of the fight. Then Sidious will go on to defeat Dooku.

I know some will argue that Dooku is close to Sidious in the force, but I disagree with that. I do believe Dooku would give Sidious a run for his money in sabers, and is even probably more technically skilled than Sidious in that area. But Sidious' mastery and strength in the dark side is much greater than Dooku's. And I don't see Savage being skilled enough to even be a threat to Sidious at all.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious keeps Savage on his ass using force lightning, and would probably injure Savage enough to completely take him out of the fight. Then Sidious will go on to defeat Dooku.

I know some will argue that Dooku is close to Sidious in the force, but I disagree with that. I do believe Dooku would give Sidious a run for his money in sabers, and is even probably more technically skilled than Sidious in that area. But Sidious' mastery and strength in the dark side is much greater than Dooku's. And I don't see Savage being skilled enough to even be a threat to Sidious at all. This, pretty much.

In TCW, Opress couldn't even get close to Dooku when he and Ventress tried fighting the Count. He's a complete and total non-factor here.

Kind of an off related tangent, but it has always seemed a bit odd to me that Palpatine would regard lightsabers in such low esteem, as though they were some archaic weapon that was beneath his powa.

Yet in Dooku's battle with Yoda in AotC, he acted like lightsaber combat is the only way to truly test the worth of a Jedi/Sith: "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the force -- but by our skills with a lightsaber."

Wat.Teh.Fuk..?

No.

Dooku said that because he thought that he and Yoda were stalemated in the Force, so they should move on to lightsabers. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.

Dooku said that because he thought that he and Yoda were stalemated in the Force, so they should move on to lightsabers. Nothing more, nothing less. Dooku regarded lightsaber combat as 'the great equalizer' for Jedi/Sith -- he didn't think of it as beneath him, like Palpatine did.

Dookus a duelist. Its what he thrives on. It comes as naturally to him as breathing. Palpatine is a narcasistic tosser. Its completely in character for him to think of himself above the silly jedi with their glow sticks. Plus unlike Dooku he does get to the point where he can fight without a lightsaber fairly comfortably.

Quote for 'the great equaliser' bit?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.

Dooku said that because he thought that he and Yoda were stalemated in the Force, so they should move on to lightsabers. Nothing more, nothing less.

They were far from stalemated though. Yoda casually absorbs and deflects Dooku's FL as if it were a nothing more than a mild nuisance.

If Yoda felt he could decide the contest with his knowledge of the force, why did he not press his advantage?

Also notice how I said 'he thought that he and Yoda were stalemated in the Force'.

Once again, why Yoda chooses the passive route during paramount confrontations is beyond me, but it is a consistent thread in his portrayal (on screen and on paper). The movie makes it abundantly xlear that Dooku's Force attacks we're of no direct threat to Yoda.

And yes, I know you said "he thought." I was just pointing that out.

I never said they were a threat.

I do now though. Yoda was showing obvious strain with that last burst of Lightning. To suggest that Dooku is so far below him that he doesn't register as a threat is blatantly false.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said they were a threat.

I do now though. Yoda was showing obvious strain with that last burst of Lightning. To suggest that Dooku is so far below him that he doesn't register as a threat is blatantly false.

You are blatantly false! Good DAY sir!!

oh noooooes, how did you discover my terrable secret!?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious keeps Savage on his ass using force lightning, and would probably injure Savage enough to completely take him out of the fight. Then Sidious will go on to defeat Dooku.

Fanboys wet dream: Sidious using force lightning while at the same time defending against Dooku's force and / or lightsaber attacks. This is not going to happen.



Since when do the believes of a fanboy mean anything?

We know that Dooku is roughly on par with Mace Windu in terms of bladework. Yet he is certainly ahead of the Jedi Master, when it comes to offensive force powers and encorporating them in his lightsaber style. Dooku alone could possible defeat Sidious, once closing into melee range. Adding Opress will be overkill, either because Sidious has to focus on Dooku first while Opress hacks away at him with possible lethal result, or because he focuses on Opress first, which gives Dooku the time to close into melee range.

And there is no evidence that Sidious is that far ahead of Dooku in terms of force powers useable in combat. In fact, there is more evidence that Dooku is rather close to his master in terms of force abilities, with Dooku's applications of the force in the Clone Wars animated series and linked products.

Sidious' Force Lightning is far beyond anything Dooku has ever accomplished with it. Not only was he able to surprise, overpower and knock Yoda around with it* (a feat Dooku most certianly did not replicate) but he casually disintergrated a Sith Worm in it in Sithisis. Dooku's lightning made Opress kinda grunt and stumble around a bit. Sidious' would turn him into a charred husk.

And Dooku has never been able to blitz 3 Jedi masters in a few seconds either.

*Was he surprised by the sheer power of it? He can't of been just plain surprised by it because Sidious telegraphs the attack like a mother****er. He does look surprised though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dookus a duelist. Its what he thrives on. It comes as naturally to him as breathing. Palpatine is a narcasistic tosser. Its completely in character for him to think of himself above the silly jedi with their glow sticks. Plus unlike Dooku he does get to the point where he can fight without a lightsaber fairly comfortably. Yeah, I understand that. Hell, Dooku likely didn't need a lightsaber to trounce most Jedi, either. In fact, I'd wager that the same Jedi Dooku would need to engage in lightsaber combat are the same Jedi Palpatine would need to engage in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Quote for 'the great equaliser' bit? That's how I took Dooku's statement. To me, it seemed like he essentially said: "we seem to be evenly matched with the force, so lightsaber combat will decide who is truly better." The great equalizer.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Fanboys wet dream: Sidious using force lightning while at the same time defending against Dooku's force and / or lightsaber attacks. This is not going to happen.



Since when do the believes of a fanboy mean anything?

We know that Dooku is roughly on par with Mace Windu in terms of bladework. Yet he is certainly ahead of the Jedi Master, when it comes to offensive force powers and encorporating them in his lightsaber style. Dooku alone could possible defeat Sidious, once closing into melee range. Adding Opress will be overkill, either because Sidious has to focus on Dooku first while Opress hacks away at him with possible lethal result, or because he focuses on Opress first, which gives Dooku the time to close into melee range.

And there is no evidence that Sidious is that far ahead of Dooku in terms of force powers useable in combat. In fact, there is more evidence that Dooku is rather close to his master in terms of force abilities, with Dooku's applications of the force in the Clone Wars animated series and linked products.

Yeah, Dooku and Sidious are so close in power that Dooku shits his pants just from talking to Sidious over a hologram. Let me guess, you're going to compare Dooku's fear of Sidious to a christian's fear of God? Yeah, we are suppose to assume that Dooku was led to believe Sidious was some omnipotent being who held all life's fait in his hand; a being who can never be killed.

Some how I don't think Dooku was led to believe that, since he was training an apprentice to help him overthrow his master through combat. Dooku is not powerful enough to take on Darth Sidious on his own, and he knows it. In fact, he doesn't even believe him and Ventress can do it together yet.

It's funny how you call everyone a fanboy who does not agree with you, when you're the one arguing that Harry Potter can kill someone who can move faster than the speed of light and some who can survive a trip to the sun and who can damage a planet with a couple of punches. Yeah, who's the fanboy? Harry is cute but let's not go overboard. Don't let your boy crush on him lead you to believe everyone is like that about another character.

Don't bother replying. You're going on ignore. For some reason I doubt that will stop you from replying to this seeing how you so desperately craved someone else's attention who had you on ignore.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, Dooku and Sidious are so close in power that Dooku shits his pants just from talking to Sidious over a hologram. Let me guess, you're going to compare Dooku's fear of Sidious to a christian's fear of God? Yeah, we are suppose to assume that Dooku was led to believe Sidious was some omnipotent being who held all life's fait in his hand; a being who can never be killed.


Wow. Sarcasm, straw man attempt. A typical fanboy reply.
I find it rather awesome, that you haven't understood until this point, that fear isn't dependent on rational though and can therefore not be used to determine the skill of two opponents. After being force pushed by Yoda in RotS, Sidious clearly showed fear by attempting to run. Shall we judge from there that Yoda must be far superior to Sidious in terms of force mastery? I don't thinks so.

So thanks for your exhibition of confirmation bias and the use of double standards. Call me, when you are capable of forming a logical sound argument.



What is it, you want to tell us?
Great. He trained an apprentice to overthrow his master, much like Sidious himself did with Maul. So Sidious is less powerful than Plagueis? Again, the exhibition of confirmation bias is almost painful. The mere action of training help to overcome a person doesn't mean that you're inable to do that on your own, neither does the assumption that you might be incapable of doing the job on your own (or with help). Dooku is far more confident about confronting Yoda than he is about confronting Sidious, despite the fact, that the Jedi Master is at least Sidious equal. Obviously, Dooku's feelings weren't logical, but motivated by a certain amount of (irrational) fear about Sidious.



I call people fanboys, that just argue in favor for a single character and have named themselves after said character. These are fairly obvious indications of a fanboy.



Wow.
Your not only misspresenting my argument (apparently, you're inable to read - nothing new there), but attempting an appeal to ridicule, an argumentum ad hominem and pulling a red herring in one paragraph. Four logical fallacies and still no successful refutation of my points. You're one of the worst debaters in a forum that has seen the likes of Darth Sexy and Nebaris. You must be proud about yourself.



I understand perfectly, that you have to ignore people who are by far your intellectual superiors. Even more funny, when you accuse me of calling people fanboys just because they dare to disagree with my opinions. Ignoring people that have other opinions is the far better thing to do in a forum made for debates. And I don't need your attention. I just celebrate another victory over another Sidious fanboy and don't look back. And since you can't reply anymore now, this is definite. Easy win.

Hey, Nebs a good debater. Just horribly biased.

Originally posted by Borbarad

What is it, you want to tell us?
Great. He trained an apprentice to overthrow his master, much like Sidious himself did with Maul. So Sidious is less powerful than Plagueis? Again, the exhibition of confirmation bias is almost painful. The mere action of training help to overcome a person doesn't mean that you're inable to do that on your own, neither does the assumption that you might be incapable of doing the job on your own (or with help). Dooku is far more confident about confronting Yoda than he is about confronting Sidious, despite the fact, that the Jedi Master is at least Sidious equal. Obviously, Dooku's feelings weren't logical, but motivated by a certain amount of (irrational) fear about Sidious.

^ This makes a good deal of sense, if you think about it objectively. Dooku's fear, misplaced or otherwise, does not impact his own standing in the series in terms of power. That being said, Sidious has been shown to be greatly weak against Force Lightning (RotS) and against gravity (RotJ); therefore, Dooku, who has shown the ability to Force TK and simultaneously lightning three Force users in combat while drugged at the drop of a hat, solos.

Gravity; thou art a heartless b*tch.

Gravity is one cold hearted ***** with a fourteen inch strap-on.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


when you're the one arguing that Harry Potter can kill someone who can move faster than the speed of light and some who can survive a trip to the sun and who can damage a planet with a couple of punches.

Lol Harry Potter vs Superman?? Wheres that? Sounds cool (and funny)..

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Don't bother replying. You're going on ignore. For some reason I doubt that will stop you from replying to this seeing how you so desperately craved someone else's attention who had you on ignore.

Come on dude, theres no need to put people on ignore. Especially not Borbarad!! Whatever you think of his arguments the guy's intelligent and makes some damn good points..

The Movie versus forum....... facepalm

N.
Hey, Nebs a good debater.





fanboi lulz

And yet one must acknowledge the whole gravity thing. mmm

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid


Guess what Neb's first name is.

It's Bob.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Come on dude, theres no need to put people on ignore. Especially not Borbarad!! Whatever you think of his arguments the guy's intelligent and makes some damn good points..

Yeah, he does make some good points at a lot of things I will admit that, but this is not one of them. He believes getting the last word in even after his points are defeated makes him right. He believes he is the very best at everything: at logic, at comprehending non-fiction, at science, at sarcasm, and the list goes on. Come to find out just recently, he is an expert at martial arts (I literally lol'd at that one), and knows more about lightsaber dueling than a jedi master. So I'll let him look up to himself, but in the mean time I'll just ignore him. I mean it's waste of time to argue with someone who is never wrong, right?

To me it's quite obvious that Sidious is much more powerful than Dooku when comparing his force contest with Yoda to Dooku's force contest with Yoda. The ROTS junior novel explains how Yoda admits to never facing a dark sider as powerful as Sidious, and how much of a struggle it was for Yoda to contain Sidious' lightning. To me when a person as cocky and as arrogant as Dooku fears someone to that extreme, there is a reason. It's one thing to be cautious and hesitant to challenge someone you might think has a chance of defeating and killing you, and another to being completely terrified of someone to the point of shitting your pants just from a conversation over a hologram.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, he does make some good points at a lot of things I will admit that, but this is not one of them. He believes getting the last word in even after his points are defeated makes him right. He believes he is the very best at everything: at logic, at comprehending non-fiction, at science, at sarcasm, and the list goes on. Come to find out just recently, he is an expert at martial arts (I literally lol'd at that one), and knows more about lightsaber dueling than a jedi master. So I'll let him look up to himself, but in the mean time I'll just ignore him. I mean it's waste of time to argue with someone who is never wrong, right?

To me it's quite obvious that Sidious is much more powerful than Dooku when comparing his force contest with Yoda to Dooku's force contest with Yoda. The ROTS junior novel explains how Yoda admits to never facing a dark sider as powerful as Sidious, and how much of a struggle it was for Yoda to contain Sidious' lightning. To me when a person as cocky and as arrogant as Dooku fears someone to that extreme, there is a reason. It's one thing to be cautious and hesitant to challenge someone you might think has a chance of defeating and killing you, and another to being completely terrified of someone to the point of shitting your pants just from a conversation over a hologram.

Someone linked a ForceCast commentary in which Dave Filoni, supervising director of TCW, said that Dooku needed an apprentice because "he's not ready to take on Sidious alone." This, coupled with George Lucas's words in the Rolling Stone magazine in which he lumps Vader in with Dooku and Maul beneath the Emperor, makes for a compelling case that Dooku isn't as powerful as Palpatine.

Also, if Dooku's fear of Sidious is irrational, is one's fear of Mr. Mark A. Ragnos equally irrational? Food for thawt.

N.
Guess what Neb's first name is.

It's Bob.

His last name is McAwesomesauce.

You misunderstand.

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
......................Who is he? What the fvck is his name?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bob.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Guess what Neb's first name is.

It's Bob.

His weewee's bigger than yours too.

N.
His weewee's bigger than yours too.

im lyke so jelus of canadianz

Nebs British. So he's even bigger than a canadian.

And he doesn't suffer from the same.... 'problems' you do.

N.
So he's even bigger than a canadian.

YOU LIE!

Search your feeling, you know it to be true.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, he does make some good points at a lot of things I will admit that, but this is not one of them. He believes getting the last word in even after his points are defeated makes him right.


One must love the irony of a guy naming himself "Sidious 66" and being known for arguing Sidious related issues exclusively, thinking he's more objective in Sidious related issues than myself. One must also love the irony of the fact, that he claims to have "defeated my points" when all he has brought to the table so far can be summed up by:

a) "I think Sidious wins."
b) "It's obvious that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku."

He does actually think that this resembles an argument, because stating his opinion without proof, evidence or anything else bolstering his opinion automatically makes him right. Yet it's me who is the arrogant guy here.



I find it rather humorous that a guy who thinks that ignoring me is the best way to deal with me, tries to ridicule me in public. Who is craving for attention here?

Let's check: Being somebody who named himself after his favorite character, it's simple loltastic to assume to be more objective regarding said character than some other random poster. Reason? Here.

Even if we would ignore that for a few moments, we have a known fanboy incabable of presenting a coherent argument on the one side, and myself, who has been noted to be among the most knowledgeable, intelligent and best debaters on this forum, even by people clearly not being my fans (e.g. Lightsnake and Gideon). Yeah. Of course I think I'm better than he is. Who won't?



To the educated folks, who try to analyse a situation, rather than interpreting it in favor for their favorite character, this is far less obvious, for multiple reasons.

1) Dooku was never utilizing two-handed lightning against Yoda, which alone would mean that, even if he should have been as powerful as Sidious (which I don't assume, just to clarify that), he would just have channeled half at much force energy at the Jedi than Sidious in the RotS situations.

2) Dooku was facing Yoda at a far greater range than Sidious did in the RotS situations, probably weakening the power of the lightning (at least the telekinetic power apparently associated with the ability) and giving Yoda more time to react on it (e.g. focus his defensive).

3) Yoda had preperation time in all situation against Dooku, where he didn't have much of that in the situation in which Sidious attacked him with that force power. As we all know, prep time has a huge impact on the outcome of such contest.

Because of those reasons (even ignoring the relations between characters here), its outright unreasonable to even try and compare this situations like Sidious 66 did. It's comparing apples to oranges. Especially when one does discard all evidence for Dooku's command over the force, with the simple line of thought, that he has to be far weaker than Sidious, because he is afraid of his master. That's not just intellectually dishonest, it's plain and simple stupid and / or fanboyish.



What Sidious 66 doesn't get is, that the supposed gap of power between Sidious and Dooku has never been thematized in a single source. We're just left with Dooku fearing his master, with the "reasons" for this - fear is unreasonable per definition - are entirely unknown. Yet, for obvious reasons, Sidious 66 just assumes that this is because a huge gap in terms of ability, which totally contradicts Dookus own force feats in a variety of sources and the idea that a man that has been called Dooku's equal (at best) did defeat Sidious. All of that can apparently be ignored because "Dooku feared Sidious". A thoroughly examination of the source material is not required if the answer is that easy, right?

And regarding our other victim of confirmation bias:

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
Someone linked a ForceCast commentary in which Dave Filoni, supervising director of TCW, said that Dooku needed an apprentice because "he's not ready to take on Sidious alone." This, coupled with George Lucas's words in the Rolling Stone magazine in which he lumps Vader in with Dooku and Maul beneath the Emperor, makes for a compelling case that Dooku isn't as powerful as Palpatine.


Again, the context is escaping our dear Gideon random newbie.

An objective analysis of Filoni's quote doesn't disprove the idea that Dooku is capable of taking Sidious alone. He is not ready to do so. A fact that might be attributed to his fear that has been thematized in this very thread multiple times by now. The same Dooku, who eagerly seeks to confront his former master Yoda, despite the fact that the Jedi is clearly (at least) equal to his new master, shows reluctancy to confront Sidious. Because he is less powerful? That doesn't stop him from trying to deal with Yoda on his own. So what?

And one must love the attempt to straw man the argument once again. Nobody did ever state or assume that Dooku is as powerful as Sidious in the ways of the force. The question is, if the Count is powerful enough to defeat Sidious should he try to do so. And now let's check: Maul was about to kill Sidious in a surge of rage, while being tired, hungry and badly injured. Yet, apparently, the Count has a greater command of the force and a greater lightsaber skill than Sidious former apprentice. And Vader? Apparently certain people do ignore that, despite of a known weakness against force lightning, Vader managed to tank Sidious force attacks long enough to throw his master into the reactor core of the second Death Star. Compared to Vader, Dooku is maybe the greater force user (given the loss of Anakin's limp), probably the more competent duellist, doesn't have a weakness against force lightning and has demonstrated the ability to defend himself against said attack.

A further analysis, taking all feats of Dooku and the accolades to his power into consideration, provides even more evidence to the idea that he might be able to take out his master in a straight out fight. First: Mace Windu did the job, despite the fact that Yoda constantly puts him below Dooku in terms of force mastery and calls him perhabs Dooku's equal on even ground. Dooku's ability to encorporate force attacks in his dueling is pretty much unparalled. He has been shown to deal with multiple attackers (among them Jedi Masters Tholme and Bulq) with his superior force abilities.

Yet, we shall write all of that off, because of the ad-lib comments of Filoni and Lucas, that don't even explicitly state (actually they don't even imply it) that Dooku is inable to overcome Sidious in the presumed kind of fight? And, of course, Dooku's fear? I'm afraid. That doesn't make sense.



If Gideon the new guy is asking if Kressh's assumption that Ragnos ghost might simply annihilate Sadow is unreasonable, than the answer is yes. The fear that kept others from attempting to challenge Ragnos for the Mantle of the Dark Lord was also unreasonable - yet not necessarily unjustified. We don't know, for example, what would have happened, if Sadow or Kressh would ever have tried to defeat Ragnos. Yet, we do know what happened to those who did question his rule during his reign that did last more than a century. They died, either killed by Ragnos personally, being assassinated or falling victim to conflicts that Ragnos did orchestrate.

Yet, at least Sadow has watched the fight between Ragnos and Simus and was therefore capable of an accessment regarding Ragnos skill in direct combat. When has Dooku witnessed the combat abilities of Darth Sidious? If he had, he would have come to the conclusion that Sidious - as we all know - isn't ahead of Yoda in the lightsaber department. So why would he have feared Sidious skill in this case, if he didn't fear that of Yoda?

Nice red herring, though.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Do we have hard evidence how powerful Vader in his suit is compared to Count Dooku in his top shape? If yes, please give it to me...if not, have a closer look at the "maybe" in the quoted sentence.

You mean, like a direct comparison? Er, no we don't. But if we had those sorts of comments this forum would be pretty useless. However, given some of Vaders more crazy feats (Force Unleashed, I'm looking at you), I think its safe to say he's Dooku's superior in the Force.

Note that I didn't call you wrong or say anything that would have me ignoring the 'maybe'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean, like a direct comparison? Er, no we don't. But if we had those sorts of comments this forum would be pretty useless. However, given some of Vaders more crazy feats (Force Unleashed, I'm looking at you), I think its safe to say he's Dooku's superior in the Force.

Note that I didn't call you wrong or say anything that would have me ignoring the 'maybe'.

What feats in TFU are you thinking about? Has been a while since I played the game.

Casually exploding trees which the novelisation point out as being as hard as Durasteel (10,000 x harder than steel if Wookiepedia is to be believed) and matching Galen Super Sayian Marek with the Force. And the second game has him replicate Sidious' Senate pod stunt with things about 30 times the size and weight.

And to quote myself on Vader's TFU toughness and durability.

Originally posted by Me
Was worn down in a lightsaber duel, crushed by giant metal tubes, zapped by Lightning, had his helmet violently ripped off, his knee hit by a lightsaber, had his face ground in to an energy field, was Force pushed through a window, and was hurled aside by an otherwise fatal Force explosion.

And got right back up again so that a year later he could have his hand chopped off and have his entire body zapped in to submission by the Super Saiyan Lightning powers of Uber Clone.

Oh and apparently, durasteel is actually 300,000 times stronger than steel, if Wookiee is to be believed. Unless one of you just went to that page and edited it, you sly c*nts.

N.
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

That is, without question, the greatest emoticon in the history of the internet.

Something Awful has all the best emotes. My favourite is that top one I can't post for decency reasons.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And to quote myself on Vader's TFU toughness and durability.



Oh and apparently, durasteel is actually 300,000 times stronger than steel, if Wookiee is to be believed. Unless one of you just went to that page and edited it, you sly c*nts.

Its been that way for at least a year, so its probably accurate. I've used it many times in the MVF in arguments.

iirc, during Bounty Hunter Wars Vader began force choking Xizor from halfway across the galaxy (at the time, he was near Coruscant and Xizor was on Tatooine.) So not only was Vader utilizing the force in a very precise fashion, from tens of thousands of light years away, but he was also doing so while holding back (as he did not want to show Palpatine his true power.)

For a comparison (and some really bad continuity/power scaling), Caedus got exhausted while using the Force on someone from orbit.

N.
For a comparison (and some really bad continuity/power scaling), Caedus got exhausted while using the Force on someone from orbit.

It's more likely that the book jacket is a questionable source; it's as much of an advertisement of a product as it is a synopsis: I distinctly recall one of the books in the Hand of Thrawn duology as saying that the threat of the late Grand Admiral Thrawn was the greatest ever faced by the Republic which, naturally, would require that dead!Thrawn be a greater threat than living!Thrawn or Palpatine or Tarkin or Vader whatever.

Perhaps Vader is moar powerful than Caedus? Perhaps not.

Wait, Vader doesthat feat in a book jacket? Wha-?

N.
Wait, Vader doesthat feat in a book jacket? Wha-?

Would you at least make an attempt to contain your rampant sexual arousal for me? It seems that all of the blood is rushing to your incredibly large sexual organ and leaving your brain wanting.

What I meant was that Caedus's superiority over Vader comes from the words of a book jacket and thus the jacket might be fallible.

Thats cool I guess but I wasn't talking about that at all.

Then what's the issue continuity- and power-wise?

N
(and some really bad continuity/power scaling)

Caedus gets exhausted from using a Force attack on someone a few hundred milles away. Vader casually chokes someone several thousand lightyears away. Unless Vader is about a million times more powerful than him thats mighty inconsistent with how difficult it is to use Force attacks over long distances.

N.
Caedus gets exhausted from using a Force attack on someone a few hundred milles away. Vader casually chokes someone several thousand lightyears away. Unless Vader is about a million times more powerful than him thats mighty inconsistent with how difficult it is to use Force attacks over long distances.

Did Caedus have a direct line-of-sight thing going on for him?

Can't remember. Would that help?

um. grand admiral thrawn WAS the greatest threat ever faced by the republic. if he hadn't gotten assassinated, there wouldn't have BEEN a republic much longer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Caedus gets exhausted from using a Force attack on someone a few hundred milles away. Vader casually chokes someone several thousand lightyears away. Unless Vader is about a million times more powerful than him thats mighty inconsistent with how difficult it is to use Force attacks over long distances.

Palpatine also used force choke on admiral Termo who was also lightyears away from him. Someone here once mentioned another sith lord using the force to throw someone who was on another planet.

So maybe Caedus' struggle to use a force attack on someone only a few hundred miles away is the inconsistent showing. Or maybe Caedus is not as powerful as Vader and the "jacket" of the book was refering to political power. lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
Caedus gets exhausted from using a Force attack on someone a few hundred milles away. Vader casually chokes someone several thousand lightyears away. Unless Vader is about a million times more powerful than him thats mighty inconsistent with how difficult it is to use Force attacks over long distances.

Perhaps some specific force abilities are easy to use at long distance while others aren't.

Perhaps. He was mind-****ing a grunt to turn off a planetary shield.

Originally posted by Galan007
iirc, during Bounty Hunter Wars Vader began force choking Xizor from halfway across the galaxy (at the time, he was near Coruscant and Xizor was on Tatooine.)

Seems a bit over the top to me.. I wonder why Vader didn't just Force choke the rebels on Hoth with that kind of power??

Originally posted by Borbarad
as long as there is some form of connection between the force user and the desired target of the force attack.

What kind of connection?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious' Force Lightning is far beyond anything Dooku has ever accomplished with it. Not only was he able to surprise, overpower and knock Yoda around with it* (a feat Dooku most certianly did not replicate) but he casually disintergrated a Sith Worm in it in Sithisis. Dooku's lightning made Opress kinda grunt and stumble around a bit. Sidious' would turn him into a charred husk.

And Dooku has never been able to blitz 3 Jedi masters in a few seconds either.

*Was he surprised by the sheer power of it? He can't of been just plain surprised by it because Sidious telegraphs the attack like a mother****er. He does look surprised though. When did he knock yoda around?As seen in the senate rotunda sidous was locked in a force battle wich all of a sudden yoda overpowered causesing them both to be sent flying.Yoda would have one if not for the momentumm of his own blast.

Originally posted by Borbarad
One must love the irony of a guy naming himself "Sidious 66" and being known for arguing Sidious related issues exclusively, thinking he's more objective in Sidious related issues than myself. One must also love the irony of the fact, that he claims to have "defeated my points" when all he has brought to the table so far can be summed up by:

a) "I think Sidious wins."
b) "It's obvious that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku."

He does actually think that this resembles an argument, because stating his opinion without proof, evidence or anything else bolstering his opinion automatically makes him right. Yet it's me who is the arrogant guy here.



I find it rather humorous that a guy who thinks that ignoring me is the best way to deal with me, tries to ridicule me in public. Who is craving for attention here?

Let's check: Being somebody who named himself after his favorite character, it's simple loltastic to assume to be more objective regarding said character than some other random poster. Reason? Here.

Even if we would ignore that for a few moments, we have a known fanboy incabable of presenting a coherent argument on the one side, and myself, who has been noted to be among the most knowledgeable, intelligent and best debaters on this forum, even by people clearly not being my fans (e.g. Lightsnake and Gideon). Yeah. Of course I think I'm better than he is. Who won't?



To the educated folks, who try to analyse a situation, rather than interpreting it in favor for their favorite character, this is far less obvious, for multiple reasons.

1) Dooku was never utilizing two-handed lightning against Yoda, which alone would mean that, even if he should have been as powerful as Sidious (which I don't assume, just to clarify that), he would just have channeled half at much force energy at the Jedi than Sidious in the RotS situations.

2) Dooku was facing Yoda at a far greater range than Sidious did in the RotS situations, probably weakening the power of the lightning (at least the telekinetic power apparently associated with the ability) and giving Yoda more time to react on it (e.g. focus his defensive).

3) Yoda had preperation time in all situation against Dooku, where he didn't have much of that in the situation in which Sidious attacked him with that force power. As we all know, prep time has a huge impact on the outcome of such contest.

Because of those reasons (even ignoring the relations between characters here), its outright unreasonable to even try and compare this situations like Sidious 66 did. It's comparing apples to oranges. Especially when one does discard all evidence for Dooku's command over the force, with the simple line of thought, that he has to be far weaker than Sidious, because he is afraid of his master. That's not just intellectually dishonest, it's plain and simple stupid and / or fanboyish.



What Sidious 66 doesn't get is, that the supposed gap of power between Sidious and Dooku has never been thematized in a single source. We're just left with Dooku fearing his master, with the "reasons" for this - fear is unreasonable per definition - are entirely unknown. Yet, for obvious reasons, Sidious 66 just assumes that this is because a huge gap in terms of ability, which totally contradicts Dookus own force feats in a variety of sources and the idea that a man that has been called Dooku's equal (at best) did defeat Sidious. All of that can apparently be ignored because "Dooku feared Sidious". A thoroughly examination of the source material is not required if the answer is that easy, right?

And regarding our other victim of confirmation bias:



Again, the context is escaping our dear Gideon random newbie.

An objective analysis of Filoni's quote doesn't disprove the idea that Dooku is capable of taking Sidious alone. He is not ready to do so. A fact that might be attributed to his fear that has been thematized in this very thread multiple times by now. The same Dooku, who eagerly seeks to confront his former master Yoda, despite the fact that the Jedi is clearly (at least) equal to his new master, shows reluctancy to confront Sidious. Because he is less powerful? That doesn't stop him from trying to deal with Yoda on his own. So what?

And one must love the attempt to straw man the argument once again. Nobody did ever state or assume that Dooku is as powerful as Sidious in the ways of the force. The question is, if the Count is powerful enough to defeat Sidious should he try to do so. And now let's check: Maul was about to kill Sidious in a surge of rage, while being tired, hungry and badly injured. Yet, apparently, the Count has a greater command of the force and a greater lightsaber skill than Sidious former apprentice. And Vader? Apparently certain people do ignore that, despite of a known weakness against force lightning, Vader managed to tank Sidious force attacks long enough to throw his master into the reactor core of the second Death Star. Compared to Vader, Dooku is maybe the greater force user (given the loss of Anakin's limp), probably the more competent duellist, doesn't have a weakness against force lightning and has demonstrated the ability to defend himself against said attack.

A further analysis, taking all feats of Dooku and the accolades to his power into consideration, provides even more evidence to the idea that he might be able to take out his master in a straight out fight. First: Mace Windu did the job, despite the fact that Yoda constantly puts him below Dooku in terms of force mastery and calls him perhabs Dooku's equal on even ground. Dooku's ability to encorporate force attacks in his dueling is pretty much unparalled. He has been shown to deal with multiple attackers (among them Jedi Masters Tholme and Bulq) with his superior force abilities.

Yet, we shall write all of that off, because of the ad-lib comments of Filoni and Lucas, that don't even explicitly state (actually they don't even imply it) that Dooku is inable to overcome Sidious in the presumed kind of fight? And, of course, Dooku's fear? I'm afraid. That doesn't make sense.



If Gideon the new guy is asking if Kressh's assumption that Ragnos ghost might simply annihilate Sadow is unreasonable, than the answer is yes. The fear that kept others from attempting to challenge Ragnos for the Mantle of the Dark Lord was also unreasonable - yet not necessarily unjustified. We don't know, for example, what would have happened, if Sadow or Kressh would ever have tried to defeat Ragnos. Yet, we do know what happened to those who did question his rule during his reign that did last more than a century. They died, either killed by Ragnos personally, being assassinated or falling victim to conflicts that Ragnos did orchestrate.

Yet, at least Sadow has watched the fight between Ragnos and Simus and was therefore capable of an accessment regarding Ragnos skill in direct combat. When has Dooku witnessed the combat abilities of Darth Sidious? If he had, he would have come to the conclusion that Sidious - as we all know - isn't ahead of Yoda in the lightsaber department. So why would he have feared Sidious skill in this case, if he didn't fear that of Yoda?

Nice red herring, though. Oh,well I guess Im a fanboy,But if you can come up with someone who can defeat him besides freddon I will then listen to you about fanboys...

Originally posted by Naga Sado
When did he knock yoda around?As seen in the senate rotunda sidous was locked in a force battle wich all of a sudden yoda overpowered causesing them both to be sent flying.Yoda would have one if not for the momentumm of his own blast.

I think he's referring to when Sidious blasted Yoda w/ FL nearly knocking him out before the lightsaber portion of their duel. Other than that...

Originally posted by Naga Sado
When did he knock yoda around?As seen in the senate rotunda sidous was locked in a force battle wich all of a sudden yoda overpowered causesing them both to be sent flying.Yoda would have one if not for the momentumm of his own blast.

Its like the first thing that happens in the fight.

Noooo!! No one can toss Yoda around! Never Ever!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wonder why Vader didn't just Force choke the rebels on Hoth with that kind of power?? Obviously for the sake of the plot.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seems a bit over the top to me.. I wonder why Vader didn't just Force choke the rebels on Hoth with that kind of power??


Simple answer- you can't just force-choak someone at a distance blindly, you need to 'lock on' to them mentally. Something like a hologram communication gives him enough information to do just that.

But short of each rebel answering his call, that won't fly.

tj
um. grand admiral thrawn WAS the greatest threat ever faced by the republic. if he hadn't gotten assassinated, there wouldn't have BEEN a republic much longer.

You didn't read it clearly enough.

If Ares was talking about the instance that I think he was talking about, I believe Vader was still in his early years as Palpatine's apprentice when he shook the jedi temple.

Originally posted by truejedi
um. grand admiral thrawn WAS the greatest threat ever faced by the republic. if he hadn't gotten assassinated, there wouldn't have BEEN a republic much longer.

Why? He lost the battle of Bilbringi despite it being his "master stroke" and he just lost his source of troops...

Originally posted by ares834
Why? He lost the battle of Bilbringi despite it being his "master stroke" and he just lost his source of troops... Didn't the Imperials lose that battle because Thrawn was dead? That's how I remember reading it.

My bad I meant to say he was losing the battle.

Originally posted by ares834
My bad I meant to say he was losing the battle. Wookiee's summary of the battle states that the New Republic fleet was lured in to a trap, but the Imperial defensive line was breached by the late-arriving Smuggler's Alliance. Thrawn reminded a dismayed Pellaeon that the battle was far from over, but before he could execute his Thrawn-style awesomeness, Rukh executed him, which made Gilad retreat.


I gotta read those books again. Forgot how fun they were.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wookiee's summary of the battle states that the New Republic fleet was lured in to a trap, but the Imperial defensive line was breached by the late-arriving Smuggler's Alliance. Thrawn reminded a dismayed Pellaeon that the battle was far from over, but before he could execute his Thrawn-style awesomeness, Rukh executed him, which made Gilad retreat.


I gotta read those books again. Forgot how fun they were.

qft

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wookiee's summary of the battle states that the New Republic fleet was lured in to a trap, but the Imperial defensive line was breached by the late-arriving Smuggler's Alliance. Thrawn reminded a dismayed Pellaeon that the battle was far from over, but before he could execute his Thrawn-style awesomeness, Rukh executed him, which made Gilad retreat.


I gotta read those books again. Forgot how fun they were.

Sure. As I said he was losing. Thrawn's plan relied on the ships not getting through his defesive line and protecting the shipyards. Could he have won? Sure. But at the time he was losing the battle badly enough that the highly capable Pellaeon himself decided to retreat immediatly following Thrawn's death.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. As I said he was losing. Thrawn's plan relied on the ships not getting through his defesive line and protecting the shipyards. Could he have won? Sure. But at the time he was losing the battle badly enough that the highly capable Pellaeon himself decided to retreat immediatly following Thrawn's death. I haven't read the book in five years, but going by Wookiee's words alone, Thrawn wasn't losing. His trap for the Republic fleet was going well. His defensive line of Golans was breached by the Smugglers, but that's not losing a battle, that's the battle taking an unexpected turn. Had Thrawn not been killed by Rukh, who knows how he would have handled the situation? I doubt he would have pulled a Pellaeon and ran (because Pellaeon knew that only Thrawn could turn the situation around).


There's a fine, fine line between the battle taking a surprising turn, and losing.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I haven't read the book in five years, but going by Wookiee's words alone, Thrawn wasn't losing. His trap for the Republic fleet was going well. His defensive line of Golans was breached by the Smugglers, but that's not losing a battle, that's the battle taking an unexpected turn. Had Thrawn not been killed by Rukh, who knows how he would have handled the situation? I doubt he would have pulled a Pellaeon and ran (because Pellaeon knew that only Thrawn could turn the situation around).


There's a fine, fine line between the battle taking a surprising turn, and losing.

Then the wook is wrong. I have the book in front of me. Rebel ships were breaching the line and destroying his station and were getting into his ship yards. By breaking through his line they were effectively breaking through his trap. I'm not saying he could't have won but he was in a very bad place and was facing a commander that is almost his equal (Ackbar). I really don't see how he could have got out of that one nor could Pallaeon who basically worshiped the guy. And I'll reiterate the battle was going so badly that when Thrawn died Pellaeon immedialty ordered a retreat he didn't even bother continuing.

I'll take your word for it until I read the trilogy again. I'm hoping Chapters is keeping their Star Wars stock up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even beyond that, matching Galen Marek in the Force is waaay more impressive than any of Dooku's feats. The man brought down a freakin' skyhook (something that reaches into orbit) with TK.

Vader was overpowered by Galen in the Force wasn't he?

If being overpowered by someone powerful is a feat, then surely Dooku being overpowered by Yoda in the Force is a greater feat.

Only when Galen had an epiphany and after an evenly fought match. They're shown to be quite consistently equal. For example in the fight I posted last page Vader is winning throughout.

Vader seriously beefed up between TFU and TFU II, given those badass feats of strength.

But he's no Count Dooku.

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
Vader seriously beefed up between TFU and TFU II, given those badass feats of strength.


And then seriously toned down just in time for ANH

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid


But he's no Count Dooku.

Lol.. Really? You gna be doing this on every thread now??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And then seriously toned down just in time for ANH



Lol.. Really? You gna be doing this on every thread now??

It's called a revelation.

He's seen the liiiiiiiiight!

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's seen the liiiiiiiiight!

Revelation was also a Journey album.

I need to expand my emoticon horizons.

I have tons. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-chord.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have tons. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-chord.gif

Which one's the one with the sly smile?

smurph

excellent

awepeach

awepedo

???????????????

1, 3, and 4. Thank you sir.

I wonder if this'll work....

Yes it will thanks luv u

<3

Originally posted by Nephthys
<3

duckielove

This is the greatest thing ever. he

You actually have access to about 8 times as many emotes as me because I was a fool and did the thing that locks me out of all but a few.

I've never even seen those ones.

osheet

Undo it.

I caaaaaaaan't! cryfox

gwah

oh hey i found it

hehehehehehe

That's what she said innuendur

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your point about durasteel being common reminds me that Marek has also bent and broken it. I believe those chicken walkers he crushes into cubes are re-enforced with it and I know that the novel points out that when he is manipulating the Star Destroyer its actually buckling under his Force grip.

Obi-Wan and Mace have both destroyed Durasteel constructions with their bare hands. Yet while Mace might have done so using his shatterpoint ability, Obi-Wan must have done it utilizing force aided strength. And he's nothing compared to Dooku in terms of force mastery.



Definitely? I don't think so. Not only are those platforms hollow (since that tanks pass through them) but we also don't have any idea what metal they are made off. And even then, one has to doubt that the lifting of the pillars was anywhere close to the upper limit of Dooku's abilities.



Galen, like any video game character, is pretty much overrated and it usually needs some elaboration of feats outside the game media to give us an accurate source to judge the abilities of a character. I don't see why Dooku should be inable to shake the temple or desintegrate somebody. And a Skyhook is usually held up in the atmosphere via repulsorlifts, that aren't too hard to overpower, as they just have to equal out the gravitational pull on the Skyhook.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Obi-Wan and Mace have both destroyed Durasteel constructions with their bare hands. Yet while Mace might have done so using his shatterpoint ability, Obi-Wan must have done it utilizing force aided strength. And he's nothing compared to Dooku in terms of force mastery.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here. If you are referring to the fight with Grievous when he pulls his chest plates apart then he really does not 'destroy' anything. He yanks them apart, theres no evidence that he's harming the steel at all, especially when he strikes him earlier and acheives nothing but hurting himself.





Having holes around the edges does not mean that the platforms are totally hollow.



Firstly metals are almost universally heavier than rock. And secondly the exact same could be said about the pillars Dooku levitates.



And again the same ould be said about Vader. More so in fact as he does it one handed after fighting Starkiller rather than Dooku doing it two-handed at fully-rested status.



Such as the novel, which is what I'm doing. And the game being 'Unleashed' does not diminish its status as canon. Everything that does not contradict a higher form of canon is still accepted.



I do. Prove me wrong.

He's never demonstrated that level of power or mastery of TK.



Which I assume is why Marek destroys it from the ground by destroying its base by literally shattering the metal apart.

BTW, I asked a guy who's good at maths over in the VG forum and he estimated the platform to be between 4 and 8000 tonnes. So yeah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW, I asked a guy who's good at maths over in the VG forum and he estimated the platform to be between 4 and 8000 tonnes. So yeah.

Random guy on VG forum is an excellent source. But I found this graffiti on a bathroom stall which contradicts your source.

Was it written in pink?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Random guy on VG forum is an excellent source. But I found this graffiti on a bathroom stall which contradicts your source.

Said random guy is a massive math nerd who frequently calculates weights over in the VG forum (for use in lifting feats). He's a trusted source.

Okay, but what exactly about his calculations are reliable? Does he demonstrate his methods? Does he have a degree in guesstimating fictional materials' weights? I mean, why should I as a casual forumer give a rats' ass about "Some guy in VG forum who does tons of weights"? I'm just looking for something more.

Jeez, its an estimate. I just casually asked if anyone could give me a ballpark figure and he said 'bout 8k tons if fully steel, 10m circle radius with a 3m height.' Like I said, I trust his estimate because he does this kind of thing near constantly in the other forum but I never claimed it as fact. Hell, I halved the above figure in my post.

But really, even if he's wildly off the platform is still heavier than those pillars.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jeez, its an estimate. I just casually asked if anyone could give me a ballpark figure and he said 'bout 8k tons if fully steel, 10m circle radius with a 3m height.' Like I said, I trust his estimate because he does this kind of thing near constantly in the other forum but I never claimed it as fact. Hell, I halved the above figure in my post.

But really, even if he's wildly off the platform is still heavier than those pillars.

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsH/69275-27939.gif

R u good at calculation?

I'm terrible at calculation.