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Brock and Kasady. Classic versions.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/495/80460-144584-venom.jpg

vs.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/104258-63610-carnage.jpg

Venom.

In an undifferentiated environment, I feel Marvel has consistently shown that Carnage is the superior of the two.

Venom is far smarter and craftier with his fighting, and can probably split it in an environment like a city. He'd manage to find a way to exploit the symbiotes weakness

Hasn't Venom required outside help or extenuating circumstances to fight Carnage effectively more times than not?

Originally posted by inimalist
In an undifferentiated environment, I feel Marvel has consistently shown that Carnage is the superior of the two.

Venom is far smarter and craftier with his fighting, and can probably split it in an environment like a city. He'd manage to find a way to exploit the symbiotes weakness seems like venom relishes fighting carnage more than the other way around as well

Already done and yes. People are getting it now. The board was like this before, and then it went into a phase where people were pro Brock. In a straight up fight Carnage holds the advantage. He had extra help and plot devices against Carnage and other time he just didn't want to fight Venom (he was pregnant etc). Venom would lose the majority in a close up KMC match.

Originally posted by inimalist
In an undifferentiated environment, I feel Marvel has consistently shown that Carnage is the superior of the two.

Venom is far smarter and craftier with his fighting, and can probably split it in an environment like a city. He'd manage to find a way to exploit the symbiotes weakness

In a city environment Brock got owned, iirc.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Already done and yes.

Link? Couldn't find any Brock/Carnage threads. Maybe you're thinking of that thread in the Spiderman forum? Seen you arguing with Sam about it there.

http://i54.tinypic.com/10nhwnd.jpg

Amazing Spider-man 363

Sam is gonna kill you for posting that.

I like Brock more but I always went with the opinion Carnage > Venom

Yep.

Carnage vs Venom was in an older thread. A few of them, it doesn't matter now though.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/Venom%20vs%20Carnage/05.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/Venom%20vs%20Carnage/06.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m179/Ptr_Grifin/Venom%20vs%20Carnage/07.jpg

Wasn't he weakened?

Looks like sheer PIS to me he never had any control over other symbiotes NEVER. Unless like Carnage in Planet of the Symbiotes you absorb them by killing the host and shit.

It reminds me of Venoms venomous teeth when he has bitten Sandman.

EDIT: Why wasn't Cletus completely covered with his symbiote anyways?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Brock and Kasady. Classic versions.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/495/80460-144584-venom.jpg

vs.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/104258-63610-carnage.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM7atS4M27s#t=00m06s

Wait what? When did venom absorb carnage?
Didn't sentry rip carnage in half durin the breakout story?

I don't remember this at all
I'm confused? Any spider fans fill in the gaps?

^ Happened way before Sentry. He had it replaced by then.

And it seems like Carnage was weakened or had his powers inhibited...

Originally posted by SamZED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM7atS4M27s#t=00m06s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4keAYbJ_qo

Better

Cant believe im letting myself get dragged into this again...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/59160890.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/92930208.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/60473650.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/99551667.jpg/


Here's the thing. Carnage really was said to be stronger, faster etc etc Truth is people, Venom has never lost a fight against Carnage ever since "Savage alliance" (Carnage's very first appearance). And they've had many. End of story.

^ So... basically you're saying Carnage wins? K.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So... basically you're saying Carnage wins? K. What part of my post led you to that conclusion?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4keAYbJ_qo

Better

Originally posted by SamZED
What part of my post led you to that conclusion? The maximum Carnage scan has context and the fight wasn't over, not even close.

Originally posted by SamZED
What part of my post led you to that conclusion? I read between the lines. Carnage fanboy.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
The maximum Carnage scan has context and the fight wasn't over, not even close. The rest of it pretty much goes the same way. Brock dominating the whoe time. The maximum Carnage had context for both of them. Carnage was way crazier than usual because of that device they hit him with (which he admitted didnt effect his strength and speed) while Venom was weak from days of torture and could barely stand when the fight started.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I read between the lines. Carnage fanboy. lol heh. Thought it was because of me editing my post. The scans didnt show at first.

Brock would lose in a straight up fight though by forum rules. Taking out plot devices or things he didn't want to really fight, Carnage wins the majority.

Originally posted by SamZED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM7atS4M27s#t=00m06s

Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4keAYbJ_qo

Better

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Brock would lose in a straight up fight though by forum rules. Taking out plot devices or things he didn't want to really fight, Carnage wins the majority.

I disagree. 80% of their fights had no plot devices and no other context. The few times there was a plot device it usually didnt favor Brock. But im willing to agree to disagree.

^ How about we agree to disagree on Carnage vs. Venom and agree that either of them kick Wolverine's mutie butt hard?

Originally posted by SamZED
Cant believe im letting myself get dragged into this again...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/59160890.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/92930208.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/60473650.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/99551667.jpg/


Here's the thing. Carnage really was said to be stronger, faster etc etc Truth is people, Venom has never lost a fight against Carnage ever since "Savage alliance" (Carnage's very first appearance). And they've had many. End of story.

Nice scans.

Never? There was that train incident and when they were web-swinging... (Clayton Crain on the art).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ How about we agree to disagree on Carnage vs. Venom and agree that either of them kick Wolverine's mutie butt hard? I think Stilt just had a heart attack because of your post.

^ Silly rabbit, truth doesn't cause heart attacks.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nice scans.

Never? There was that train incident and when they were web-swinging... (Clayton Crain on the art). Thanks. Ive checked, unleashed was a bfr, Carnage just knocked him off the car, Venom didnt even get to finish climbing it iirc. As for the one where they were swinging Carnage was pregnant and Venom was trying to convince him to keep the baby, he wasnt attacking. In that same story after Carnage gave birth they actually fought in a subway. And you remember what happened there.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Silly rabbit, truth doesn't cause heart attacks. True. True.

There was the "silly ray" he was hit by. He was also pregnant in the toxic arc. It seems like a lot of the times he is trying to avoid Brock.

Originally posted by SamZED
Thanks. Ive checked, unleashed was a bfr, Carnage just knocked him off the car, Venom didnt even get to finish climbing it iirc. As for the one where they were swinging Carnage was pregnant and Venom was trying to convince him to keep the baby, he wasnt attacking. In that same story after Carnage gave birth they actually fought in a subway. And you remember what happened there. Yeah, Venom tossed him onto the tracks and somehow... Carnage wasn't run over... despite seeing the goopy mess under the train... and his screams coming from under the train...

...

... thanks for reminding me of that debacle.

He was pregnant in the first issue. And pretty sure he was ran over by the train. Just survived. That moth@#$# is hard to kill.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ How about we agree to disagree on Carnage vs. Venom and agree that either of them kick Wolverine's mutie butt hard?

uhuh

Originally posted by SamZED
Thanks. Ive checked, unleashed was a bfr, Carnage just knocked him off the car, Venom didnt even get to finish climbing it iirc. As for the one where they were swinging Carnage was pregnant and Venom was trying to convince him to keep the baby, he wasnt attacking. In that same story after Carnage gave birth they actually fought in a subway. And you remember what happened there.

Ah... poor Cletus. So he only has a single win against Brock?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ah... poor Cletus. So he only has a single win against Brock? Pretty much. But it was so impresive (he held his own against both SM and Venom) that its the most memorable of their encounters. But not the only one.

He fought off Spider-Man, Venom, and the FF. A lot of their fights were unfinished skirmishes.

You mean MC? He had a team of his own when he fought them all. In SA it was only SM and Venom. And it was mostly a hit and run kind of fight.

He fought multiples though, the avengers were on him and everything. He was intended to be more powerful. They've had meaningless inconclusive fights as his popularity declined, but I still wouldn't give him the majority in a straight up fight.

lol, 2 pages late...

Originally posted by Starscream M
seems like venom relishes fighting carnage more than the other way around as well

ya, he does seem to have an insane desire to kill Kassidy

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
In a city environment Brock got owned, iirc.

I'm thinking of the end of Maximum Carnage, where Venom continuously beats the crap out of Kassidy, but Spidey stops him from killing Carnage multiple times.

I think in a forum fight, Carnage probably has more power overall, but in an environment where Venom might get the edge, he can and will use if more effectively than Carnage will use that power advantage.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He fought multiples though, the avengers were on him and everything. He was intended to be more powerful. They've had meaningless inconclusive fights as his popularity declined, but I still wouldn't give him the majority in a straight up fight. Cant think of any particular instance (other than his first appearance) where Carnage dominated a team of super heroes. He fought avengers, FF but always had a team of supervillains helping. As for Venom vs Carnage, they had plenty of fair 1 on 1 (no PIS) fights. If anything Savage alliance was an unfinished skirmish and that's the only one Cletus dominated.

Originally posted by SamZED
You mean MC? He had a team of his own when he fought them all. In SA it was only SM and Venom. And it was mostly a hit and run kind of fight.

the last fight between the two in MC was pretty much 1v1, with spidey and black cat interfering only a couple of times, and then, really only to save carnage from venom

Originally posted by inimalist
the last fight between the two in MC was pretty much 1v1, with spidey and black cat interfering only a couple of times, and then, really only to save carnage from venom Pretty much. And concidering the shape Brock was in (tried to attack Spider-man but collapsed) its pretty damn impressive.

Originally posted by SamZED
Cant think of any particular instance (other than his first appearance) where Carnage dominated a team of super heroes. He fought avengers, FF but always had a team of supervillains helping. As for Venom vs Carnage, they had plenty of fair 1 on 1 (no PIS) fights. If anything Savage alliance was an unfinished skirmish and that's the only one Cletus dominated.

A lot of fights he didn't want to be bothered and was avoiding him. Either way he'd still win on a forum match the majority. Originally posted by inimalist
lol, 2 pages late...



ya, he does seem to have an insane desire to kill Kassidy



I'm thinking of the end of Maximum Carnage, where Venom continuously beats the crap out of Kassidy, but Spidey stops him from killing Carnage multiple times.

I think in a forum fight, Carnage probably has more power overall, but in an environment where Venom might get the edge, he can and will use if more effectively than Carnage will use that power advantage. That was when he was hit by that ray to weaken him though. With everyone trying to stop him.

Originally posted by SamZED
Pretty much. And concidering the shape Brock was in (tried to attack Spider-man but collapsed) its pretty damn impressive.

oh, for sure

all things considered, Carnage had just regenerated from the "love" attack from Dagger and Deathlok as well, and gave as good as he got in the fight, but Venom did seem to be the clear victor between the two.

I tend to think forum rules favor carnage though

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
A lot of fights he didn't want to be bothered and was avoiding him. Either way he'd still win on a forum match the majority. uhuh

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That was when he was hit by that ray to weaken him though. With everyone trying to stop him.

very true, but just before that fight, in MC 13, Venom is falling over from fatigue after confronting Spider-Man

neither were at full strength, but if I had to give it to anyone, Carnage certainly had the element of surprise over Venom in that scenario. I think the fight is more impressive for Brock than vice versa.

also from MC, Brock's ability to outsmart the entire Carnage family to escape the statue of liberty sort of shows that he can probably outwit Carnage in a fight where he can use the environment to his advantage

I think Carnage was in worse shape. He tried to dig his mother's grave. But like I said most of these fights had plot devices (as do most comic fights).

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I think Carnage was in worse shape. He tried to dig his mother's grave. But like I said most of these fights had plot devices (as do most comic fights).

sure, carnage is crazy and might not have been as focused, but the fact he had the opportunity to even go to the cemetery comes from Spiderman stopping venom from killing carnage on at least a couple of occasions in that same issue.

not to mention, everyone thought Carnage was dead. He duped everyone by making them attack a corpse and not Kassidy. He had as much time to regenerate as he wanted, whereas Venom was, literally, 4-5 panels before the fight, falling over from exhaustion.

idk, maybe my read of that fight is just different from yours.

Originally posted by inimalist
sure, carnage is crazy and might not have been as focused, but the fact he had the opportunity to even go to the cemetery comes from Spiderman stopping venom from killing carnage on at least a couple of occasions in that same issue.

not to mention, everyone thought Carnage was dead. He duped everyone by making them attack a corpse and not Kassidy. He had as much time to regenerate as he wanted, whereas Venom was, literally, 4-5 panels before the fight, falling over from exhaustion.

idk, maybe my read of that fight is just different from yours. Well remember he was suffering delusions from the gun (the ghosts of the people who he killed were talking to him, and he was visiting prisons amongst other things).

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well remember he was suffering delusions from the gun (the ghosts of the people who he killed were talking to him, and he was visiting prisons amongst other things).

no, very true, I'm certainly not suggesting either of them were at their best

and remember, I give carnage a majority out of 10 in a blank forum fight, and only a split to venom in a fight where he can find places to exploit symbiote weaknesses.

Sounds fair to me. Now we have to convert Sam. And jinzin if he shows up.

:P

getting a modest agreement with you, C-master, I'm thinking is a revelation in and of itself!

I agree with most of what you say from what I've seen. I guess the things I disagreed on we were more outspoken on. No big deal though, sorry if any of that other stuff got out of control.

Carnage is faster, stronger, meaner and can do far more with his powers.

I think I'm going to re-read all of their encounters and keep the outcomes in a folder.

Sam could you give me the issue numbers of your scans? I have these issues laying around some where on my HDD but I can't remember their names.

Originally posted by Jedi Matt
Carnage is faster, stronger, meaner and can do far more with his powers. Yes.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I think I'm going to re-read all of their encounters and keep the outcomes in a folder.

Sam could you give me the issue numbers of your scans? I have these issues laying around some where on my HDD but I can't remember their names.


Here you go.

(Savage alliance)
The Amazing Spider-Man #362
The Amazing Spider-Man #363
Winner: Carnage

(Maximum Carnage)
Spectacular Spider-Man #203
Spider-Man Unlimited #2
Winner: Venom several times

Carnage unleashed 2
Carnage unleashed 4
Winner: Carnage via bfr, Second fight a tie

Venom On trial 3
Winner: Venom pretty much twice

Venom vs Carnage 2
Winner: Venom

Venom triumphant
Not a fight but Carnage pretty much admits Eddie is his superior.

There's a reason you like Venom better than Carnage.


Originally posted by Jedi Matt
Carnage is faster, stronger, meaner and can do far more with his powers. He's meaner. Big, fat "."

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Sounds fair to me. Now we have to convert Sam. And jinzin if he shows up. Nevah! taz

Brock was done after that train hit him, so it wasn't just a bfr. Unless I'm remembering it wrong...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Brock was done after that train hit him, so it wasn't just a bfr. Unless I'm remembering it wrong... True. By the way imo that's kinda stupid. Not trying to take away Carange's win, just saying that a punch from someone like Thing should do more damage than a speeding train and both Venom and Carnage have taken far worse.

Originally posted by SamZED
True. By the way imo that's kinda stupid. Not trying to take away Carange's win, just saying that a punch from someone like Thing should do more damage than a speeding train and both Venom and Carnage have taken far worse. Depends on how fast and how heavy the train is.

Originally posted by SamZED
True. By the way imo that's kinda stupid. Not trying to take away Carange's win, just saying that a punch from someone like Thing should do more damage than a speeding train and both Venom and Carnage have taken far worse.

Even Wolverine himself is afraid of Marvel Trains, he had to dodge one in his first series.

I get your point, but you know how it is with comic books... baseball bats, bricks, etc. give you +10 to strength. Train = one-shot. That's how X-Factor defeated Cyber (Havok's and Strong Guy's efforts were futile).

Remember, there's a reason why Ultimate Colossus and Iron Fist get so much respect

Originally posted by SamZED
Here you go.

(Savage alliance)
The Amazing Spider-Man #362
The Amazing Spider-Man #363
Winner: Carnage

(Maximum Carnage)
Spectacular Spider-Man #203
Spider-Man Unlimited #2
Winner: Venom several times

Carnage unleashed 2
Carnage unleashed 4
Winner: Carnage via bfr, Second fight a tie

Venom On trial 3
Winner: Venom pretty much twice

Venom vs Carnage 2
Winner: Venom

Venom triumphant
Not a fight but Carnage pretty much admits Eddie is his superior.

There's a reason you like Venom better than Carnage.


He's meaner. Big, fat "."

Nevah! taz You is trollin'.

To me, it seemed like Carnage and Rulk share the same type of story telling. At first both were stronger than the people they were copied from, as stories went on, that edge they had went away.

Originally posted by rotiart
Wait what? When did venom absorb carnage?
Didn't sentry rip carnage in half durin the breakout story?

I don't remember this at all
I'm confused? Any spider fans fill in the gaps?

Believe it or not, Cletus found another symbiote exactly like Carnage in the negative zone. He literally dug up a box and the symbiote was there.

Well many characters that are evil get the power treatment in their debut. It was consistent that was he was faster, more powerful, and had a more advanced symbiote.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well many characters that are evil get the power treatment in their debut. fixed

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well many characters that are evil get the power treatment in their debut. It was consistent that was he was faster, more powerful, and had a more advanced symbiote.

Yes, but now Hulk is stronger than Rulk, and it seems Venom has had the upper hand in most of the fights succeeding their earlier fights.

Meh, Carny was stated as stronger and I've seen him do better without help from the opposing side.

Each symbiote generation gets stronger. Toxin is the strongest now (although he is good).

Venom stomps carnage...just like usual.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well many characters that are evil get the power treatment in their debut. It was consistent that was he was faster, more powerful, and had a more advanced symbiote.
? dident Sam just post there fights and which Venom has the winning record, and in fact carnage admits himself to be inferior?

I don't see Venom winning this, considering Carnage has beaten Venom & Spider-Man at the same time on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by Davis Bloome
I don't see Venom winning this, considering Carnage has beaten Venom & Spider-Man at the same time on more than one occasion.

does everyone have Sam on block or something, because he clearly disprove this notion wrong in his post

Originally posted by SamZED
Here you go.

(Savage alliance)
The Amazing Spider-Man #362
The Amazing Spider-Man #363
Winner: Carnage

(Maximum Carnage)
Spectacular Spider-Man #203
Spider-Man Unlimited #2
Winner: Venom several times

Carnage unleashed 2
Carnage unleashed 4
Winner: Carnage via bfr, Second fight a tie

Venom On trial 3
Winner: Venom pretty much twice

Venom vs Carnage 2
Winner: Venom

Venom triumphant
Not a fight but Carnage pretty much admits Eddie is his superior.

There's a reason you like Venom better than Carnage.


He's meaner. Big, fat "."

Nevah! taz

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
does everyone have Sam on block or something, because he clearly disprove this notion wrong in his post


No they just instantly ignore the content in his posts the minute they see he has Azula as his avatar shifty

Originally posted by SamZED
Here you go.

(Maximum Carnage)
Spectacular Spider-Man #203
Spider-Man Unlimited #2
Winner: Venom several times



."

Nevah! taz

I'll have to reread that, but I remember Carnage throwing off both Spidey and Venom at the same time, and don't recall their fights going to a conclusion, although Venom got his licks in.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Even Wolverine himself is afraid of Marvel Trains, he had to dodge one in his first series.

I get your point, but you know how it is with comic books... baseball bats, bricks, etc. give you +10 to strength. Train = one-shot. That's how X-Factor defeated Cyber (Havok's and Strong Guy's efforts were futile).

Remember, there's a reason why Ultimate Colossus and Iron Fist get so much respect

Original Mongul was tanking everything Superman and Kyle Rayner was throwing at him, until Kyle had an "idea". His idea was a train construct.

Granted, a GL train construct is more then a mere train, but it's funny your standard Super Punch and GL beams/constructs did zip, but train construct = KO.

Originally posted by jinzin
Venom stomps carnage...just like usual. Like never? Oh you mean with help. Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
? dident Sam just post there fights and which Venom has the winning record, and in fact carnage admits himself to be inferior?

First of all, those fights he did not have a winning record in, and the ones where he did better were due to him having plot devices or assistance (guns, help, etc.)

Secondly, Carnage being more powerful and faster is a fact, each generation becomes stronger, with Toxin being the strongest of all. His symbiote also has more abilities and is closer bonded. Brocks intelligence advantage is exaggerated, and he hasn't been portrayed as Peter Parker or anything himself. Venom has a tendency to get in close and brawl. Which puts him at a disadvantage. He is also at a disadvantage at a range where Carnage has more abilities.

Third, Carnage "admitting" something in a comic means little. Wolverine said he can break Spider-Man's neck after all if he wanted to (something you like to ignore). Venom has also admitted Carnage is stronger and faster than him (which he *is*). Carnage has kicked Venom's ass before with assistance.

Did you even read the fights? And Fourth, simply posting fights and saying a character wins, is absurd forum debating and removes the point of a forum battle. In comic books you have plot devices story arcs, characters that job, etc. To tell a story. Popularity also comes into play, and Venom *is* more popular than Carnage which is why he was killed off. Hell if we use forum books only, characters like GL, Flash, and Strange would be far less powerful. Here we fight with them at their best.

Stop trying to look for something to argue with me about all of the time. With that said in a neutral environment with no help or plot devices and both of them fighting at their best, Carnage takes the majority. Feat skewing isn't going to change that.

CM, dont feel like arguing with you, but you just dont remember it right. Venom didnt defeat Carnage with plot devices. Most of the time said plot devices favored Carnage, not Venom. Examples: In "Unleashed" it was the train conveniently passing by and the fact that he had more experience fighting through the net, Venom was still new at it, and yet they stalemated each other. Maximum Carnage Venom was in a much crappier shape than Carnage and still kicked his ass all over the place. No guns, no nothing, just fists. And then there is "trial" where Venom beat him twice with his bare hands without any plot devices and despite constant interference from Spider-man. Physically overpowered him in "Venom vs Carnage" etc And while it was said once that next generations should be stronger such statements in comics are rarely true. It has more to do with the "first appearance so gotta look badass" rule. Even more so if we count all the upgrades the character had. I agree with you that forum battle is a different story but I dont see why we cant at least use some of the comics examples to make a conclusion as long as those fights didnt involve PIS/CIS. And at one point or another Venom displayed most of the abilities Carnage has, so he's just as versetile.


Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
does everyone have Sam on block or something, because he clearly disprove this notion wrong in his post
lol that very well might be the case, people hate me.

Originally posted by jinzin
No they just instantly ignore the content in his posts the minute they see he has Azula as his avatar shifty Dont make me do "something unspeakably horrible to you and your friends." What can I say, I have a thing for insane evil chicks. Cant wait to find out what happened to her, once the Legend of Korra comes out. Will settle for a lousy flashback even.

SamZED and CMaster are BOTH wrong, here's why:

Carnage is PHYSICALLY superior to venom...he's more versatile, more deadly, stronger, faster

BUT

Venom is MENTALLY superior to Carnage...he's more experienced, he's more aggressive (when fighting Carnage), and Carnage is for some reason a bit scared of fighting Venom (daddy issues)

hence the matchup is quite close and Venom ends up winning some because he gets into Carnage's head.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Like never? Oh you mean with help.

First of all, those fights he did not have a winning record in, and the ones where he did better were due to him having plot devices or assistance (guns, help, etc.)

Secondly, Carnage being more powerful and faster is a fact, each generation becomes stronger, with Toxin being the strongest of all. His symbiote also has more abilities and is closer bonded. Brocks intelligence advantage is exaggerated, and he hasn't been portrayed as Peter Parker or anything himself. Venom has a tendency to get in close and brawl. Which puts him at a disadvantage. He is also at a disadvantage at a range where Carnage has more abilities.

Third, Carnage "admitting" something in a comic means little. Wolverine said he can break Spider-Man's neck after all if he wanted to (something you like to ignore). Venom has also admitted Carnage is stronger and faster than him (which he *is*). Carnage has kicked Venom's ass before with assistance.

Did you even read the fights? And Fourth, simply posting fights and saying a character wins, is absurd forum debating and removes the point of a forum battle. In comic books you have plot devices story arcs, characters that job, etc. To tell a story. Popularity also comes into play, and Venom *is* more popular than Carnage which is why he was killed off. Hell if we use forum books only, characters like GL, Flash, and Strange would be far less powerful. Here we fight with them at their best.

Stop trying to look for something to argue with me about all of the time. With that said in a neutral environment with no help or plot devices and both of them fighting at their best, Carnage takes the majority. Feat skewing isn't going to change that.
I not picking an arguement with anything. You seemed as others to ignore Sam post in which he stated issue and titles of there fights. and as Sam again above explains, the fights did not go down the way you seem to remember. I have read the fights and I don't recall Carnage being superior, not been stated as superior asside froma single hyperbole statement which contradict the statement directly made by carnage who admitted inferiority to Venom. From what I have seen and from the issue Sam has presented, venom has come off as physically equal if not superior and simply better with his abilities then carnage. Only thing that disagree with this is handbooks which are awful and are exclude purposely from the boards, because of there inaccuracy. Seem more like wishful thinking that carnage wins, but perhaps that just me.

But please feel free to prove carnage is superior.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan


But please feel free to prove carnage is superior. he can turn his arms into blades

he can shoot symbiote bullets

Originally posted by Starscream M
he can turn his arms into blades

he can shoot symbiote bullets
niether of that makes carnage superior, ur just lisiting random powers now.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
niether of that makes carnage superior, ur just lisiting random powers now. so if we fought, and you had a knife and a gun, that doesn't make you superior? come on now

Originally posted by Starscream M
so if we fought, and you had a knife and a gun, that doesn't make you superior? come on now
I dont need a knife or a gun to beat u, so it hardly matters, I was superior before I got either weapon. Yes because being stabbed and shot is so damaging to symbiots . Please if you honestly think that makes carnage superior, your not qualified to debate this topic.

Originally posted by Starscream M
SamZED and CMaster are BOTH wrong, here's why:

Carnage is PHYSICALLY superior to venom...he's more versatile, more deadly, stronger, faster

BUT

Venom is MENTALLY superior to Carnage...he's more experienced, he's more aggressive (when fighting Carnage), and Carnage is for some reason a bit scared of fighting Venom (daddy issues)

hence the matchup is quite close and Venom ends up winning some because he gets into Carnage's head. Tbh that's how it is on paper, but not going by their showings.

Strength, they've taken turns overpowering each other physically so debatable. And that's BEFORE Venom had his upgrades.

Speed, maybe if we go by "savage alliance" alone. Most of the other encounters are in Brock's favor. He's even blitzed Carnage at some point.

Deadly? I guess, he's a psycho and a mass murderer after all.

More versatile. Wouldnt say so. Venom pretty much displayed every ability Carnage has.

As for being mentally strong, it does depend on the host yeah. For example Spider-man can wear the venom symbiote but it will never amp him the way it amps Brock. Same with Gargan.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I dont need a knife or a gun to beat u, so it hardly matters, I was superior before I got either weapon. Yes because being stabbed and shot is so damaging to symbiots . Please if you honestly think that makes carnage superior, your not qualified to debate this topic. you are a clown. I would have you in a submission in less than 3 seconds. Come at me bro!

Originally posted by Starscream M
you are a clown. I would have you in a submission in less than 3 seconds. Come at me bro!
in ur dreams

Originally posted by SamZED

More versatile. Wouldnt say so. Venom pretty much displayed every ability Carnage has. .

I agree, but venom isn't generally depicted as using the full extent of his symbiote the way carnage or even gargan did.

iirc, back in the day this was explained by the fact carnage had bonded entirely with his symbiote (referred to himself as "I" whereas Brock still was a different individual from his symbiote (referred to himself as "we"

that might have changed, idk

Originally posted by inimalist
I agree, but venom isn't generally depicted as using the full extent of his symbiote the way carnage or even gargan did.

iirc, back in the day this was explained by the fact carnage had bonded entirely with his symbiote (referred to himself as "I" whereas Brock still was a different individual from his symbiote (referred to himself as "we"

that might have changed, idk You're right. And it has changed. The "I"/"We" is kind of a trademark heh. Brock at some point became one with the symbiote, their bond is as strong as it gets but he still says We. Gargan never impressed me as Venom tbh. He never wins a fight. Increasing his mass is the his only trick.

Originally posted by SamZED
Gargan never impressed me as Venom tbh.

http://i55.tinypic.com/j9u7pz.jpg

Originally posted by SamZED


Gargan pwned Steel Spider, General Wolfram and Redeemer. True a-list characters. Not to mention a Skrull and an Atlantean. Did so well against Colossus that Piotr had to resort to a plot device (brick) to fend him off. He was raping both Thing and Logan in a What if (his every appearance is canon, like in Mxyzptlk's case). His absolute lowest showing is him having an upper hand in the fight with Spiderboy. That fight should've been over in half of a panel ermm

You disgust me with your total disrespect for one of Marvel's most powerful characters, if not the most uhuh

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I not picking an arguement with anything. You seemed as others to ignore Sam post in which he stated issue and titles of there fights. and as Sam again above explains, the fights did not go down the way you seem to remember. I have read the fights and I don't recall Carnage being superior, not been stated as superior asside froma single hyperbole statement which contradict the statement directly made by carnage who admitted inferiority to Venom. From what I have seen and from the issue Sam has presented, venom has come off as physically equal if not superior and simply better with his abilities then carnage. Only thing that disagree with this is handbooks which are awful and are exclude purposely from the boards, because of there inaccuracy. Seem more like wishful thinking that carnage wins, but perhaps that just me.

But please feel free to prove carnage is superior. What hyperbole?

Each generation of symbiote is superior in strength and speed, that's a fact. Carnage has a better symbiote than Venom. Venom is smarter (but not by leaps and bounds) and he's less willing to kill. Carnage can also use his symbiote for other abilities.

I didn't ignore anything, we were discussing it during the thread.

Put them in an enclosed area and I'd give Carnage the majority. With them at their best.Originally posted by SamZED
CM, dont feel like arguing with you, but you just dont remember it right. Venom didnt defeat Carnage with plot devices. Most of the time said plot devices favored Carnage, not Venom. Examples: In "Unleashed" it was the train conveniently passing by and the fact that he had more experience fighting through the net, Venom was still new at it, and yet they stalemated each other. Maximum Carnage Venom was in a much crappier shape than Carnage and still kicked his ass all over the place. No guns, no nothing, just fists. And then there is "trial" where Venom beat him twice with his bare hands without any plot devices and despite constant interference from Spider-man. Physically overpowered him in "Venom vs Carnage" etc And while it was said once that next generations should be stronger such statements in comics are rarely true. It has more to do with the "first appearance so gotta look badass" rule. Even more so if we count all the upgrades the character had. I agree with you that forum battle is a different story but I dont see why we cant at least use some of the comics examples to make a conclusion as long as those fights didnt involve PIS/CIS. And at one point or another Venom displayed most of the abilities Carnage has, so he's just as versetile.



lol that very well might be the case, people hate me.

Dont make me do "something unspeakably horrible to you and your friends." What can I say, I have a thing for insane evil chicks. Cant wait to find out what happened to her, once the Legend of Korra comes out. Will settle for a lousy flashback even. In maximum Carnage he was hit by that gun and then Brock put him in the generator before he "came to his senses". Carnage was always protrayed as a larger threat. More times than not it's Venom and Spider-Man dealing with him. In Venom vs Carnage, Carnage was pregnant with toxin.

What are you saying the end result of the match is anyways?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Put them in an enclosed area and I'd give Carnage the majority. With them at their best. In maximum Carnage he was hit by that gun and then Brock put him in the generator before he "came to his senses". Carnage was always protrayed as a larger threat. More times than not it's Venom and Spider-Man dealing with him. In Venom vs Carnage, Carnage was pregnant with toxin.

What are you saying the end result of the match is anyways? He was pregnant in the beginning of the story and that's why Venom didnt fight him when they were swinging throughout the city. When Venom overpowered him in the subway he was no longer pregnant. "Savage alliance" is the only time Spider-man helped Venom fight Carnage. In "Trial" and during the last battle of "maximum Carnage" he was actually trying to stop him, getting in the way, basically protecting Carnage. Carnage was hit by the gun, but not during the battle, Brock didnt have any help when they fought. And yes Carnage was crazier than usual because that gun's effect didnt wear off yet, but Brock was also weakened because of the torture. Collapsed on his knees right before Carnage appeared. I dont think it should count as a plot device that favors Venom if Brock himself could barely stand.

I give Brock a solid 6/10. Dont really count the upgrade because no one ever remembers that.

EDIT: We've debated this several times and probably know all each others argument. I think that going by showings Venom takes it, but I understand why you choose to side with Carnage. So as usual lets just agree to disagree on the subject.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Gargan pwned Steel Spider, General Wolfram and Redeemer. True a-list characters. Not to mention a Skrull and an Atlantean. Did so well against Colossus that Piotr had to resort to a plot device (brick) to fend him off. He was raping both Thing and Logan in a What if (his every appearance is canon, like in Mxyzptlk's case). His absolute lowest showing is him having an upper hand in the fight with Spiderboy. That fight should've been over in half of a panel ermm

You disgust me with your total disrespect for one of Marvel's most powerful characters, if not the most uhuh Gargan is so lame every time he's having an upper hand against ANYONE it should count as PIS because it contradicts 99% of his appearances.

Originally posted by SamZED
He was pregnant in the beginning of the story and that's why Venom didnt fight him when they were swinging throughout the city. When Venom overpowered him in the subway he was no longer pregnant. "Savage alliance" is the only time Spider-man helped Venom fight Carnage. In "Trial" and during the last battle of "maximum Carnage" he was actually trying to stop him, getting in the way, basically protecting Carnage. Carnage was hit by the gun, but not during the battle, Brock didnt have any help when they fought. And yes Carnage was crazier than usual because that gun's effect didnt wear off yet, but Brock was also weakened because of the torture. Collapsed on his knees right before Carnage appeared. I dont think it should count as a plot device that favors Venom if Brock himself could barely stand.

I give Brock a solid 6/10. Dont really count the upgrade because no one ever remembers that.

EDIT: We've debated this several times and probably know all each others argument. I think that going by showings Venom takes it, but I understand why you choose to side with Carnage. So as usual lets just agree to disagree on the subject. I meant a numerical total.


Spider-Man wanted to stop Carnage, just not kill him. Black Cat and Spidey were there too. Gaining up on poor Carnage.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I meant a numerical total.


Spider-Man wanted to stop Carnage, just not kill him. Black Cat and Spidey were there too. Gaining up on poor Carnage. lol. But he's ginger. And a serial killer so he had it coming. Anyway my post is #100 so im right.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Like never? Oh you mean with help.
Quite so... his fists and feet have been very helpful when it's come to pounding carnage into the pavement.

venom

Originally posted by SamZED
lol. But he's ginger. And a serial killer so he had it coming. Anyway my post is #100 so im right. I meant how many out of 10?Originally posted by jinzin
Quite so... his fists and feet have been very helpful when it's come to pounding carnage into the pavement. Yea, after being hit by 10 different people.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I meant how many out of 10? Yea, after being hit by 10 different people.

I know! Venom got beat up and tortured by 10 different people and STILL whomped on Cletus' face! eek

Originally posted by jinzin
I know! Venom got beat up and tortured by 10 different people and STILL whomped on Cletus' face! eek After Carnage got jumped by The Avengers and FF?

How are you btw?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
After Carnage got jumped by The Avengers and FF?

How are you btw?

Actually that was before... and then that second part you referenced never happened.... so there's that...

lol I'm good. Trying to prep for the next fight in august. You?

Originally posted by jinzin
Actually that was before... and then that second part you referenced never happened.... so there's that...

lol I'm good. Trying to prep for the next fight in august. You? That was before.... he did fight the FF if I remember correctly, or at least they helped.

Busy busy. Trying to make it in this world. Who are you fighting?

why did srank get temp banned?

For being too sexy?

you're not ordinary bruh

I know... I'm extraordinary.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
why did srank get temp banned only now? Fixed for accuracy.

Wow I just realized srank got banned. :'(

bump

NOOOOOOO!

Carnage. Barring weakness exploitation, he's virtually unkillable. Still.

Flash Venom gets his ass kicked. Gargan Venom trips and dies. Brock Venom dominates.