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The most powerful incarnation of Sidious versus his three powerful apprentices.
Will the Emperor prevail or the apprentices will end their master?

All combatants at their peak.
Setting: Forests of Endor

1) Sabers
2) Force
3) All-out

Not sure who wins, but Maul's pretty much a non-factor here.

Originally posted by Harbinger
Not sure who wins, but Maul's pretty much a non-factor here.

I think he's of some use in Sabers only.

Welll, Vader would be a non-factor in sabers.

Maul would be a non-factor in sabers. Vader is often underestimated imo.

Maul would be a non-factor in sabers... if he has to take the brunt of Sidious's attack. If he engages when Sidious is occupied, then he can be useful.

Given that he's the weakest on the field by far, I don't see why Sidious wouldn't simply eliminate him from the start.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Maul would be a non-factor in sabers. Vader is often underestimated imo.
no u

In sabers Maul vs. Vader ends up with Maul taking it.

I agree that Sids can try to take Maul out as soon as the fight starts. Not sure how much it will help him though...

Except this fight has actually happened and Vader won. he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tim5nU3DwIE

Nah-uh

Originally posted by Harbinger
Given that he's the weakest on the field by far, I don't see why Sidious wouldn't simply eliminate him from the start.

He's fast enough he stands a reasonable chance of being able to avoid a blitz. I almost said "stay back behind the others," but I can't see that flying with the other two.

Sidious definitely should- that's why he went after Windu's crew first after all, Fisto could be dangerous as an assist even if he was easily soloed- but it might be harder to pull off here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except this fight has actually happened and Vader won. he

If your talking about the comic where a Maul clone is brought to life to fight Vader then... Maul won the Saber portion of the fight, Vader won by stabbing a whole through him and Maul.

IMO Maul is seriously underestimated around here. He is a Sith Lord after all.. Thats not a title Sidious would give lightly.

He is a Sith Apprentice. Its much more dismissive than Lord. And Vader is obviously a Lord though because I say so. Maul lost to a padawan. And even if Vader stabbed himself he still won.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He is a Sith Apprentice. Its much more dismissive than Lord. And Vader is obviously a Lord though because I say so. Maul lost to a padawan. And even if Vader stabbed himself he still won. Maul, Vader, and Dooku are all apprentices, and they're all Lords, as per the RoT.


Silly Brit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul lost to a padawan.

So did Vader

Originally posted by Nephthys
And even if Vader stabbed himself he still won.

Point is Vader didn't beat him via Superior Saber combat. If anything Maul was shown to be superior in that regard.

No he didn't.



I might be confused, but Vader killed him with his lightsaber while they were in direct combat correct? It seems to me thats what it means to defeat someone in lightsaber combat, don't you agree? So therefor you lose and neener neener neener, don't you think?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't.

Do I really have to send you a link to ROTJ?

Vader got his ass handed to him by a Padawan.. At least Maul got taken by surprise, what's Vader's excuse?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I might be confused, but Vader killed him with his lightsaber while they were in direct combat correct? It seems to me thats what it means to defeat someone in lightsaber combat, don't you agree? So therefor you lose and neener neener neener, don't you think?

Oh God! Ok Vader won due to his superior lightsaber technique of stabbing himself to get Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do I really have to send you a link to ROTJ?

Vader got his ass handed to him by a Padawan.. At least Maul got taken by surprise, what's Vader's excuse?

He loved his son.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Oh God! Ok Vader won due to his superior lightsaber technique of stabbing himself to get Maul.

Cold-blooded Ingenuity is superior technique. Same reason why you'll learn to attack a person's eyes and groin in Gung Fu.

Some see it as dirty-fighting, but it's actually superior use of combative technique.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do I really have to send you a link to ROTJ?

Vader got his ass handed to him by a Padawan.. At least Maul got taken by surprise, what's Vader's excuse?

'I am a Jedi, like my father before me.'

'Your skills are complete..... indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has forseen.'

'I am Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight.'

Luke wasn't a Padawan. Plus he's, y'know, Luke mother****ing Skywalker.





Yup.

We're always two sides of the same coin, aren't we?

Wait...




wait...




wait...




Vader fought Maul's clone.

Maul's clone =/= Maul

In sabers original Maul wins with Vader. Fact.

We don't know if it was a clone or not. But its implied he was ressurrected through Sith Alchemy.

Original Maul does not beat Vader.

Edit: And even if its a clone, why would that matter? Galen Marek has established that clones can be created equal to the original in every way, so yeah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Original Maul does not beat Vader.

In sabers, he does.


And even if its a clone, why would that matter? Galen Marek has established that clones can be created equal to the original in every way , so yeah.
no u

Prove this every way bit.

Gaalen Marek was equal to the original Galen. In every way.

Maybe, maybe not.

In power, perhaps.

Was he the same person? Rather not.

'You have inherited his skills, but also his weaknesses.' - Vader.

His lightsaber skills were consistent with the originals as well, having significant trouble with Vader but eventually beating him.

Nah.

Gaalen =/= Galen the same way Maaul =/= Maul

They share the same potential, set of skills etc.
Yet to say that what a clone does an original would do in the same way every time is simply false.

I'm not saying that.

But he did inherit his lightsaber skills and powers as you said. So what the hell? Vader beat someone with the same skills and abilities. He beat Maul. End of.

lol
Gaalan had the same potential and he proved himself to be powerful, yet to say he was equal to his original in every way power-wise is an unjustified simplification. Period.

if anything, I'd say Galen trashed Vader, and Gaalen seemed to fight him on more even terms.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'I am a Jedi, like my father before me.'

'Your skills are complete..... indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has forseen.'

'I am Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight.'

Luke wasn't a Padawan. Plus he's, y'know, Luke mother****ing Skywalker.



oh my lord! Do I really hav2 quote PM lines now:

"Confer on you the rank of jedi knight the council does"-Yoda

"Obi-Wan is ready"- Qui-Gon

Obi-Wan wasn't a padawan either by that same logic.. Both Luke and Obi-Wan were knighted in those movies but neither was knighted till the end of the movies.

So technically Maul and Vader BOTH lost to padawans, but in terms of skills possessed they were beaten by fully trained Knights.

Galen did not 'thrash' Vader at all. Only when he mastered his emotions was he able to overcome him. Gaalen on the other hand did not do this, so had to fight Vader while still pissed off that Vader had killed Juno. He still won though. Both of them are around equal in power to Vader, with both of them being only slighty his superior.

Riiight.

But are they equal to one another in every way?

Rather not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
oh my lord! Do I really hav2 quote PM lines now:

"Confer on you the rank of jedi knight the council does"-Yoda

"Obi-Wan is ready"- Qui-Gon

Obi-Wan wasn't a padawan either by that same logic.. Both Luke and Obi-Wan were knighted in those movies but neither was knighted till the end of the movies.

So technically Maul and Vader BOTH lost to padawans, but in terms of skills possessed they were beaten by fully trained Knights.

Obi-Wan was not a Knight until he was one at the end, and is never said to be one beforehand. Luke however, directly refers to himself as a Jedi Knight and is supported in this by Vader and Yoda's ('No more training do you require' 'Then I am a jedi?' 'When you confront Vader, a Jedi will you be.') assessment of him. So yeah, Yoda directly says that when he confronts Vader he'll be a Jedi. Check and Mate.

Even if what you say is true and Luke was never promoted to Knight level, then you do realise that this would make that it that Luke is still a Padawan. Obviously thats bullshit.


Originally posted by axel_jovan
Riiight.

But are they equal to one another in every way?

Rather not.


Now you're just nitpicking. They're equal in combat ability, which is what matters in this forum.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan was not a Knight until he was one at the end, and is never said to be one beforehand. Luke however, directly refers to himself as a Jedi Knight and is supported in this by Vader and Yoda's ('No more training do you require' 'Then I am a jedi?' 'When you confront Vader, a Jedi will you be.') assessment of him.

Even if what you say is true and Luke was never promoted to Knight level, then you do realise that this would make that it that Luke is still a Padawan. Obviously thats bullshit.




He became a Jedi when he resisted the dark side.. Thats when he says "Im a Jedi" There was no council to confer it upon him. He had to announce it himself.

Before that Yoda denies he's a Jedi:

"Then I am a Jedi"

"No, one thing remains, You Must confront Vader" That was Luke's Trial.

Obi-Wan says earlier in TPM "I am ready for the Trials"

But after killing Maul he was Knighted as confronting a Sith Lord is enough of a trail.

So if your going to stick to your "LOL Maul was defeated by a padawan" bullcrap, then stop being hypocrytical, because SO WAS VADER! Because Theres no evidence anywhere to suggest Luke at that point was better trained than Obi-Wan as of TPM.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Now you're just nitpicking. They're equal in combat ability, which is what matters in this forum.
Oh my.
Few posts ealier you claimed they are equal in every way.
Not my fault you are wrong.

And no, because both Galen and Gaalen beat Vader, does not automatically make them equal power-wise.
At best it indicates they are on the same tier.

And he did confront Vader.

So when he fought, he was a Jedi knight, because he was confronting him and thus a Jedi as Yoda said.





ROTJ Luke >>> TPM Obi-Wan.



facepalm

Do you take everything people say on exact words basis? I was speaking casually and in hyperbole. I meant that they were the same power and skillwise, not down to the last thought you nitpicking git.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Do you take everything people say on exact words basis? I was speaking casually and in hyperbole. I meant that they were the same power and skillwise, not down to the last thought you nitpicking ****.
Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.


You're still wrong though.

No I'm not.

Yeah u r

I've already provided evidence that you were unable to reply seriously to. Ergo my penis is bigger than yours.

((L*D)+(W/G))/(A^2) Length times Diameter plus Weight over Girth divided by Angle of the tip squared

QED.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've already provided evidence that you were unable to reply seriously to.

Originally posted by me
And no, because both Galen and Gaalen beat Vader, does not automatically make them equal power-wise.
At best it indicates they are on the same tier.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Ergo my penis is bigger than yours..
You.Have.Penis.?

It indicates that they are close enough for there to be little difference. Certainly not enough difference to make Vader suddenly able to beat someone he would be unable to otherwise.

And Vader directly says that a clone inherits the originals skills.

Edit: I see you have wisely retracted your challenge to my point in leiu of a comedy response. Excellent, your fear pleases me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It indicates that they are close enough for there to be little difference. Certainly not enough difference to make Vader suddenly able to beat someone he would be unable to otherwise.

And Vader directly says that a clone inherits the originals skills.

Edit: I see you have wisely retracted your challenge to my point in leiu of a comedy response. Excellent, your fear pleases me.

Was it a clone, or a doppleganger?

@ Nephthys
no...I was editing my post u silly Brit

My point stands.

My point stands actually.


Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Was it a clone, or a doppleganger?

Who? Gaalen or Maaul?

Originally posted by Nephthys
My point stands actually.

My point stands harder.

MY POINTS STANDS EVEN HARDER TIMES INFINITY TIMES ONCE MORE THAN YOU CAN EVER SAY NUH-UH!

Originally posted by axel_jovan
My point stands harder.

If you had a point.

Nuh-uh...?

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
If you had a point.


Now I Remember.... u r not nice

Originally posted by axel_jovan


Now I Remember.... u r not nice

Fine. I'll be nice. angel_not

Originally posted by Nephthys
My point stands actually.




Who? Gaalen or Maaul?

Maul.

Its never explained if he's the actual Maul resurrected or if he's a clone. My opinion however is that it doesn't really matter.

It here any reason to believe that Maaul=Maul?

Afterall, Joruus=/=Jorus.

^ Exactly.

And Gaalen =/= Galen

True. Gaalen was shown to be superior in almost every way. Plus he had the orginals training.

If anything Galen is superior to Gaalen.

Wats this about Joruus?

So N, if Galen (the original) is superior to Gaalen (the clone), how does this support your argument that the Maul clone was as good as the real Darth Maul?

I didn't say that.

'If anything Galen is superior to Gaalen.'

Nah. Gaalen has the better feats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BoB7tS1fOU

Almost effortlessly tossing a Rebel Blockade runner aside! That puts SD redirection to shame. Starts at about 3:00

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say that.

'If anything Galen is superior to Gaalen.'

So then, by your logic, it follows that if anything, the real Darth Maul is superior to the clone Darth Maul.

That wasn't logic! Can't I say anything in this fvcking thread without people jumping on me!?

Originally posted by Nephthys
That wasn't logic! Can't I say anything in this fvcking thread without people jumping on me!?

No you bawbag, you can't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That wasn't logic! Can't I say anything in this fvcking thread without people jumping on me!?

Like hobos on a ham-sandwhich.

So it's firmly established that original =/=clone.

Good. Gooood.

Yeah, no.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Gaalen has the better feats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BoB7tS1fOU

Almost effortlessly tossing a Rebel Blockade runner aside! That puts SD redirection to shame. Starts at about 3:00

Rebel Blockade Runners are about a tenth the size of a Star Destroyer iirc. About 150 meters vs 1500 meters. I'm more impressed about that asteroid he smashes just after. Its bigger than the corvette.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
So it's firmly established that original =/=clone.

Good. Gooood.

Yep. And since Vader's lightsaber feats shit all over Maul's he wins.

Originally posted by ares834
Yep. And since Vader's lightsaber feats shit all over Maul's he wins.

Except Vader b a r e l y beat a clone of Maul, who by N's logic is if anything, inferior to the real Darth Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And he did confront Vader.

So when he fought, he was a Jedi knight, because he was confronting him and thus a Jedi as Yoda said.




Lol so you think the minute he clashed sabers with Vader he became a Jedi. Nope. Wrong.

Someone has to declare him to be a Jedi.. You dnt just become one by default. Yoda declared it upon Obi-Wan after he killed Maul.

Luke declared it on himself after he Successfully confronted Vader and resisted the Dark Side.



Originally posted by Nephthys
ROTJ Luke >>> TPM Obi-Wan.

Thats good, cause Maul never lost a fencing match to Padawan Obi-Wan, whilst Vader DID LOSE a fencing match to Padawan Luke.

End of the day both Sith Lords got beat by padawans (technically).. Even though both padawans were fully trained, but thats meaningless since we're just arguing stupid technicalities here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rebel Blockade Runners are about a tenth the size of a Star Destroyer iirc. About 150 meters vs 1500 meters. I'm more impressed about that asteroid he smashes just after. Its bigger than the corvette.

Yes, SD are far bigger however he had gravity helping him out and he wasn't able to completley redriect the falling SD. Furthermore it took all of his effort while here he seems to almost effortlessly toss asied the Runner and he does it with such force it blows up when it hits the broken SD (Which he destroyed by using the force to "supercharge" a turbo laser).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol so you think the minute he clashed sabers with Vader he became a Jedi. Nope. Wrong.

Someone has to declare him to be a Jedi.. You dnt just become one by default. Yoda declared it upon Obi-Wan after he killed Maul.

Luke declared it on himself after he Successfully confronted Vader and resisted the Dark Side.


Yoda said only a "Jedi Knight with the force with his ally" could "conquer" Vader.

Furthermore, there is this.

LUKE: Then I am a Jedi?

YODA (shakes his head): Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

When Luke confronted Vader in RotJ he became a Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
but thats meaningless since we're just arguing stupid technicalities here.

True enough.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda said only a "Jedi Knight with the force with his ally" could "conquer" Vader.

That was ESB, when he's telling Luke not to run off, but complete his training. And didn't he say "Conquer Vader AND his Emporer".. Im pretty sure he did.


Originally posted by ares834
LUKE: Then I am a Jedi?

YODA (shakes his head): Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

When Luke confronted Vader in RotJ he became a Jedi.

So what just confront him for 2 secs then go home, and he's a Jedi by default? Nah. That was Luke's trial, he had to defeat Vader and resist the darkside.

Well they are in zero gravity at the time.



I don't see why not. Yoda says 'when you confront Vader' not 'After you've confronted and defeated him and resisted the darkside.' The implication is that when Luke is couragous enough to stand in front of his father as a Jedi and not back down, he'll be an actual Jedi Knight.

Yoda does, saying that when he confronts Vader he'll be a Jedi.

Baseless interpretation. You're pulling that interpretation out of your ass.



Maul lost to Obi-Wan becuase he failed to react to him and becuase frankly he was an utter dumbass and failure. Vader lost because Luke Mother****ing Skywalker went ballistic on him. A little hard to compare the two, don't ya think?

If you think its stupid, why are you still replying?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was ESB, when he's telling Luke not to run off, but complete his training. And didn't he say "Conquer Vader AND his Emporer".. Im pretty sure he did.

Just checked and you are right. However, in the context of the quote he clearly meant 'either or' not 'both' as Luke at the time wasn't going to challenge the Emporer only Vader. And both Obi-Wan and Yoda are like "well we're ****ed."



It's not so easy to walk away from a Sith Lord... But Yoda makes it clear when Luke "confronts" not defeats Vader he becomes a Jedi.

But that's exactly what happened. Luke conquered Vader and (indirectly) Darth Sidious. One cannot rightfully rely on one quote out of context. Generally when submitting something as evidence, it is done in conjunction with other supporting evidence to paint a complete picture.

Therefore, for Luke to become a Jedi, he had to face Vader again and overthrow him and Sidious - which of course he did.

What are you talking about? Yoda directly states that when Luke "confronts" Vader he becomes a Jedi. There is no mention of him defeating him nor is their mention of the Emporer or even resisting the dark side. Luke, according to Yoda, became a Jedi when he fully confronted Vader in RotJ. There are no if, ands, or buts about it.

Originally posted by ares834
What are you talking about? Yoda directly states that when Luke "confronts" Vader he becomes a Jedi. There is no mention of him defeating him nor is their mention of the Emporer or even resisting the dark side. Luke, according to Yoda, became a Jedi when he fully confronted Vader in RotJ. There are no if, ands, or buts about it.

Just throwing this out there...

But successful confrontation of another person pretty much means defeating them in one way or another.

Yoda meant that once the job got completed, then, and only then a Jedi will he be.

I misinterpreted the banter between you (a834) and DP. Apologies. Regardless, Luke himself declares Jedi status only after he defeats his father and resists the emperor's influence to kill him. And as NYR stated, successful confrontation includes overcoming the object of said confrontation.

So, maybe some on topic posts now?

Can the team take Sids down?

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
Just throwing this out there...

But successful confrontation of another person pretty much means defeating them in one way or another.

Yoda meant that once the job got completed, then, and only then a Jedi will he be.



Confronting successfully was implied, otherwise what was the point in him confronting him.

Especially when we look at Luke getting tempted by the darkside during his confrontation, its obvious he hadn't successfully passed his trial yet..

Originally posted by axel_jovan
So, maybe some on topic posts now?

Can the team take Sids down?

Not sure how much more powerful DE Sids was to OT Sids.. Apart from the Force storm, but its not like he's gna shoot a Force Storm at these 3 right??

^ Well, I'm no expert on Sids, but I see no reason why he couldn't do that.

Perhaps the best chance for the team is to close the distance.
Dooku and Maul will keep Sids occupied in sabers (maybe even win), while Vader will attack him with uber TK.

Sidious can take these guys imo. He's faster and more powerful than all of them. Vader is the only real threat in terms of the Force (I remain unconvinced of Dooku's l33t skills by Borb) and while they can definately challenge him in lightsabers, I don't think they're good enough to overwhelm him.



Because a Force Storm can tear apart entire fleets and to use it so close to himself would be suicide.

^ Or just have Maul doing what he can to him in Sabers, while Dooku blasts him with FL and Vader hits him with Uber TK..

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because a Force Storm can tear apart entire fleets and to use it so close to himself would be suicide.
So the whole Force storm is kinda useless in 1on1 fight....silly.

The thing is that Dooku's and Vader's force powers combined > DE Sids's force powers IMO.
But will it be enough to overcome him? I'm not sure.
That is why I think it would be best for the team to divide tasks and not jump all into sabers or force battle.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
So the whole Force storm is kinda useless in 1on1 fight....silly.

The thing is that Dooku's and Vader's force powers combined > DE Sids's force powers IMO.
But will it be enough to overcome him? I'm not sure.
That is why I think it would be best for the team to divide tasks and not jump all into sabers or force battle.

If DE Sidious can hypothetically defeat Darth Nihilus - he'd mop up these three, easily.

Well, I'd say that these three can hypothetically destroy big N. too. So there.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, I'd say that these three can hypothetically destroy big N. too. So there.

Maybe if he just laid down and took it.

I say they'd make a nice snack.

I bet he'd love that

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I bet he'd love that

Well, he's a catcher in any sense.

Though seriously, I don't see those three being able to do much to stop him..

Maybe offer oral or something.. to that gaping maw.

Nah.
Count Dooku offers oral only to his one and only master. it's not N..
In this sense Maul would be too freaky and Vader's helmet would get in the way. So no.

Oh yes. N. would devour these three.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Nah.
Count Dooku offers oral only to his one and only master. it's not N..
In this sense Maul would be too freaky and Vader's helmet would get in the way. So no.

Nihilus would just have to take it by force, then.

One way or the other, he'd get what wanted. yes

cursing<-- Maul

scared<-- Vader

weep<-- Dooku

smoke<-- Nihilus

EDIT: Oh yeah...and then he'd Force Drain the shit out of them and kill them.

Anakin protected himself from the Dark Reaper... Just putting that out there.

Originally posted by ares834
Anakin protected himself from the Dark Reaper... Just putting that out there.

Wouldn't help him against the Dark Raper, though.

I know, cheesy.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
I know, cheesy.

It's okay. We know you're high.

I'd be shocked if he wasn't.

I thought the kids nowadays were into getting high..

Naturally, Dooku solos. He's second only to the true Lord of the Sith, Mark A. Ragnos.

N.
Because a Force Storm can tear apart entire fleets and to use it so close to himself would be suicide.

As demonstrated during the events of Dark Empire, Palpatine's mastery of the Force Storm phenomenon is sufficient to safely teleport a given target to a desired location while simultaneously consuming and destroying other objects.

Oh dear, not this discussion again....

N.
Oh dear, not this discussion again....

I simultaneously accept your concession and offer my condolences. In your grief, I urge you to take issue with the writers of Dark Empire and the relevant source material.

You've never even slightly proven that he can use a Force Storm and teleport himself at the same time. The idea of him being able to maintain his control of the phenomenom while travelling through a wormhole is frankly ludicrous.

N.
You've never even slightly proven that he can use a Force Storm and teleport himself at the same time. The idea of him being able to maintain his control of the phenomenom while travelling through a wormhole is frankly ludicrous.

Why would he be unable to do so with himself if he can do so with others?

Because he's not going through a fvcking wormhole at the time.

N.
Because he's not going through a fvcking wormhole at the time.

Given that the only instance of Palpatine ever losing control of a Force Storm occurs when three Skywalkers channel an extraordinarily high level of power to separate the Storm from its maker, what proof do you have that traveling through a wormhole would disrupt his control?

Well I've yet to see him maintain his concentration while travelling through something that makes space-time its ***** and is heavier than the sun, at speeds exceeding the speed of light the same way a star destroyer exceeds a whiffle bat.

N.
Well I've yet to see him maintain his concentration while travelling through something that makes space-time its ***** and is heavier that the sun, at speeds exceeding the speed of light the same way a star destroyer exceeds a whiffle bat.

I understand where you're coming from, but by that reasoning, anyone who is consumed by the Force Storm should be obliterated.

Which isn't what happens in the comic book; Palpatine can safely conduct individuals across the space-time continuum when so inclined.

Yeah, because he isn't personally going through it. What I'm saying is that going through it is enough to make it near impossible for him to keep his concentration running. What with being in a space where physics are mere suggestions rather than actual rules.

Its th difference between using Force Lightning and getting Force Lightning used on you. Only times 100.

I understand what you're saying. But if we apply those rules properly, Palpatine or Luke or anyone traveling through the Force Storm should be, by all rights, dead the second they enter the wormhole (giggity).

What you're saying is essentially: Okay, well if won't kill them it'll definitely ruin their concentration.

That seems terribly close to presumption.

I don't see how your getting that from me at all.

In fact it kinda seems like you're dodging the point right now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how your getting that from me at all.

In fact it kinda seems like you're dodging the point right now.

What he is saying is, how will safely traveling through a wormhole make him lose concentration?

If he was able to maintain concentration while being in severe pain from having his hand chopped off, how will safely floating through a wormhole make him lose concentration?

Well for a start he's travelling faster than the speed of light through what is basically two black holes linked together, not 'safely floating through'. I'd imagine it would be difficult to maintain a Force Storm several thousand lightyears away from himself without being able to see or sense it, particularly while currently presiding in an area where reality has become so fvcked up that its looped over itself. One wonders whether he'd be able to concentrate on a point in the universe that hes either movng to or away from much, much faster than the speed of light.

Do you think hed be able to fire off Force Storms in Hyperspace?

There's no point dodging on my end. It's just that Palpatine creating Force Storms at whim, safely transporting individuals across the space-time continuum while simultaneously destroying various objects and debris, etc. has basis in canon whereas your concerns do not.

N.
Well for a start he's travelling faster than the speed of light through what is basically two black holes linked together, not 'safely floating through'.

This has been addressed. Palpatine transported Luke without incident or injury.



This has been addressed. Palpatine was able to do so to Luke at Coruscant despite his physical location on Byss.



More to the point, where is it said that concentration is necessary to control the Force Storm? The only time he lost control over the Storm is when he was separated from the Force courtesy of Luke, Leia, and Anakin.

facepalm

Stop bringing that up like it actually matters. I know he can use the frickin technique. That isn't the issue here. Transporting other people /=/ transporting himself.



Again, that doesn't mean shit.



Finally adressing the actual point. Well obviously that proves that he needs to maintain to Storm on his end, as when he was unable to do so it destroyed him. If he is unable to do so because he's hurtling through space-time faster than light, then he would logically lose control again.

N.
If he is unable to do so because he's hurtling through space-time faster than light, then he would logically lose control again.

Yeah, bullshit. This entire thing is speculation. By that logic I can say that since he's lost control of it before then he will again when put in similar circumstances.

N.
Yeah, bullshit. This entire thing is speculation.

More accurately, your argument is drowning in baseless speculation.





Interesting how the circumstances the Emperor faces here are rather not like the circumstances before him during the events of Dark Empire.

The same could be said for him using the Force Storm on himself.

N.
The same could be said for him using the Force Storm on himself.

Wait a sec--
mmm





No, no, I still don't see the point.

You say he never lost control due to that circumstance, I say he never maintained control in that circumstance. Basically:





Do you see it now?

haermm
WTF are you talking about?



facepalm

He didn't maintain control when they cut him off from the Force.

No shit.

N.
No shit.

That's the most sensical and and sensible thing you've said all day. sneer

Basically you're saying that I can't prove that he'll lose control in that situation, and cited that he was able to use the technique in such a way as you are suggesting before.

However, I am saying that we're talking about an entirely different situation than the times when he successfully used it. So you should prove that he can use it in these new set of circumstances, rather than say that he did so in completely different ones. I.E on other people rather than himself.

Do you get it now? 72h9ndi

You silly goose, this is my argument:

*Palpatine has been shown to conjure Force Storms and safely teleport people while destroying debris simultaneously.

*Palpatine retains control of his Force Storms until he is separated from the dark side of the Force by three Force users uncommonly powerful in the Force channeling "light side" energy.

*There is no evidence suggesting that traveling through a wormhole cuts a person off from the Force. Why would Palpatine struggle?

If you wish to assert this is the case, feel free. But 'til you can actually provide evidence that remotely indicates this would be the case, I'm gonna have to toss this into the shitheap along with every argument you've ever madethe German's arguments regarding the good Count Dooku, and go watch Buffy season 5.

he

Ye Gods, I've already provided ample reasons for why there is evidence that Palpatine would not be able use the Wormhole on himself. If you keep asking or evidence that he can't do it then I'm just going to keep asking for evidence that he can. Something which he has never done and on which you are merely speculating that he can do. I don't need to prove he can't, you need to prove he can, and you sure as shit have not done that yet.

N.
Ye Gods,

Don't use my name in vain, boy. sneer



No, what you've said is that Palpatine will be moving really really fast for real and so he can't concentrate because of physics.

I said that the physical forces Palpatine would endure under a Force Storm should by your reckoning kill him or any other soul traveling through a Force Storm, but Dark Empire indicates that, through the Force, the Emperor can guarantee an individual's safety. MisapplyingUsing theoretical physics in such a manner that is debunked by the source material isn't... proof.

More importantly, lax concentration =/= separation from the dark side, which is the only thing that has ever caused Palpatine to lose control over his Force Storm.



This has been addressed.



facepalm

Buffy it is.

If you had perhaps done a simple google check you would perhaps now that theoretically at least, wormholes are traversable.

And there is more to using the Force that the safety of the body. In fact, none of my arguments said anything about bodily harm. At all. Try again.



Bullshit.

Are you suggesting that Palpatine needs no conscious effort or concentration at all to maintain it? Thats absurd. The Storm is tied to him enough so that him losing the Force destabalises it, so obviously there is still some connection to him, especially as, according to you, he is able to exert conscious will over it to such an extent as to seperate Skywalker from debris.

Again, if you keep going 'the only thing thats made him lose control is getting seperated with the force' then i'll just reply with 'he's only used it on others, not himself.'



Indeed. Poorly. peaches




Buffy sucks.