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The two meet in the Hanger Bay on Geonosis.

Force
Lightsaber
All Out

^ Good fight..

Prob same power level (unless Anakin threatens Leia), and on a similar level in terms of combat skill, but Luke's more level headed so Il give him the win.

Anakin has more technical skill and experience. I'll give him the win.

Luke takes this.

Anakin is better trained and as such is more refined in lightsaber combat as well as Force usage. Anakin wins with little to moderate difficulty.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
Luke takes this.

Agreed.

Thing is Luke beat Vader (in Sabers at least). I have a hard time putting AOTC Anakin above that level in swordplay.

Luke also took down Boba Fett and Jabba's guards pretty easily.

As for his TK, with a mere gesture he Force Choked 2 Gamorrean guards simultaneously with incredible ease.

As for experience. Anakin has 10 years, Luke had 4. I dnt find it difficult to believe an Adult Luke(possibly more serious about his training) could learn what kid Anakin did in less than half the time.

^ Luke didn't "take down" Boba Fett, he chopped his blaster in half. That's it.

Anyway, RotJ Luke wins the force match, AotC Anakin wins the others, imo. Anakin was technically skilled enough to give Dooku a much better fight than most Knights/Masters ever did (a fact further supported by the novelization.)

RotJ Luke, on the other hand, was flailing his lightsaber around at Vader like Stevie Wonder at batting practice- there appeared to be very little technical skill associated with his combat style. Having said that, I don't see him lasting more than a few seconds against Dooku, before being easily dealt with.

That's how I see it. Luke's Forcitude is more impressive than Anakin (I don't know much about him AotC and earlier), but Anakin is the more skilled duelist. I have a difficult time time seeing Home Run Hitter Luke keeping up with the speed that Anakin can put out.

How is RotJ Luke's Force aptitude greater than AotC Anakin's? Anakin blocked Dooku's exit using some type of Force barrier. Dooku remarks that he has unusual powers (obviously noticing that this kid is something different and special).

^ from what we saw on screen, Luke appeared to be more advanced with the force.

Agreed. However a would give a rather large edge to Anakin in sabers, however I believe Luke still takes this.

Luke seems more collected and in control, and I think he's pulled some more impressive feats in the ESB-RotJ period than AotC> Anakin.

Anakin has shown far more proficiency with a blade though, and I don't believe Luke's Force skills to be so far advanced that he won't be overwhelmed by Anakin's superior bladework.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ from what we saw on screen, Luke appeared to be more advanced with the force.

What have we seen onscreen from RotJ Luke that's so impressive compared to Anakin? Him lifting C3PO w/ the Force or using it to retrieve his lightsaber? I've seen nothing at all from Luke at this point that impresses me.

^ JT Luke's Force Choke of those 2 guards was pretty impressive IMO..

It wasn't just the fact that he choked them, but how easily he did it, merely by pointing at them, and the fact that he did it to 2 of them simultaneously.

The question is what did Anakin show as of AOTC? The only thing I remember was he chucked a few dead and stationary droids in the droid factory. Not much more impressive than levitating C-3PO around on his chair.

I would also assume considering his training with Yoda that he would not be calling himself a Jedi Knight until he could levitate an X-Wing. Just an assumption but he would be pretty arrogant calling himself a Jedi Kinght to Jabba the Hutt and Chewbacca before he could do that considering Yoda said to him in ESB "That is WHY you fail!"

As for the close combat lets not forget how fast Luke was in ESB (the incredible leap). Apparantly a similar jump is a deleted scene in ROTJ (against the Rancor). Iv not seen Anakin as of AOTC move that fast.

Big ***king deal if he choked two guards. Yeah, Anakin couldn't do that... right? Wait, he has already demonstrated his choking ability before the Clone Wars even began. And there is nothing but conjecture concerning Luke's ability to levitate an x-wing. As far as his close quarters combat, his little league baseball form will not help him here. Anakin also guided himself with the Force while falling hundreds, maybe thousands of feet, through multiple layers of cross traffic, while chasing Zam. I've not seen Luke do that. Point is, they both have different feats, and nothing Luke has done at this point makes me think he is superior to Anakin as far as Force aptitude goes. And really, with sabers, it's not much of a contest.

According to some things Lucien posted Luke appears to have been legitimately keeping up with Vader in lightsabers. Unless I am misremembering, that would elevate him way above Anakin imo.

When did he demonstrate choking ability?

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to some things Lucien posted Luke appears to have been legitimately keeping up with Vader in lightsabers. Unless I am misremembering, that would elevate him way above Anakin imo.

When did he demonstrate choking ability?

I dunno, some damn comic or novel. It's canon though. And keeping up w/ Vader is a FAR stretch from giving one of the greatest swordsmen EVER a decent run.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I dunno, some damn comic or novel. It's canon though.

Be nice to see some evidence for it. To my knowledge the first time Anakin uses force choke is in the Clone Wars.



So Luke didn't give "one of the greatest swordsmen EVER a decent run"... I seem to recall him defeating Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to some things Lucien posted Luke appears to have been legitimately keeping up with Vader in lightsabers. Unless I am misremembering, that would elevate him way above Anakin imo. Luke was legitimately overwhelming Vader's saber defenses. He won that fight fair and square.


I just can't harmonize the vast difference between the visuals of both G-canon sources. Judging strictly by movies, Vader slowed down considerably in that suit, which would explain Luke's victory. AotC Anakin is portrayed as faster and more skilled, end of story. But he's supposed to be less skilled.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
AotC Anakin is portrayed as faster and more skilled, end of story.

Faster?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frCIQfpMOyo

Go to 1:15

And thats ESB Luke.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Anakin also guided himself with the Force while falling hundreds, maybe thousands of feet,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjPUVzX-GDU

Again thats ESB Luke (who had just been battered and had his hand chopped off as well!)

Huh, I never noticed that second one, but damn straight, he falls sideways.

Perhaps he's more strong than I thought.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, I never noticed that second one, but damn straight, he falls sideways.

Perhaps he's more strong than I thought.


I always thought that was the suction that pulled him, especially because of the suction sounds.

Well its certainly possible, maybe even probable. Though I would question why he grinds to a halt later in the pipe with no air ruffling his clothes.

Don't point RJ at this btw, you just know he'd wank the shit out of it. The current thread is just embarrasing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well its certainly possible, maybe even probable. Though I would question why he grinds to a halt later in the pipe with no air ruffling his clothes.

It looks and sounds like the "suction' stops.

When I was a kid, I always imagined that those were "trash" collection tubes that "sucked" in the falling trash and "squirted" it out to the planet. Then the planet's hot core (I imagined that it was a planet like Jupiter: no surface) or the speed would cause the trash to burn up. Making it the perfect trash disposal system.

Yes, as a kid, I daydreamed about proper waste management in futuristic stories.

I just took for granted that everyone assumed the same. It's actually pretty neat to see how people interpret the same stuff I saw in a different way. It speaks to the awesomeness of the films. hmm


Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't point RJ at this btw, you just know he'd wank the shit out of it. The current thread is just embarrasing.

I definitely will not. No matter the side he chooses (even if he's right), he recycles the same arguments and it gets old.

Originally posted by ares834
So Luke didn't give "one of the greatest swordsmen EVER a decent run"... I seem to recall him defeating Vader.

Uhm... NOPE! Vader isn't one of the greatest swordsmen ever. Post-Mustafar Vader falls a little short of Dooku in sabers.

And in reference to another post, concerning Luke supposedly guiding himself, this is from the script;

A calm comes over Luke, and he makes a decision. In the next instant
he steps off the gantry platform into space. The Dark Lord looks over
the platform and sees Luke falling far below. The wind begins to blow
at Vader's cape and the torrent finally forces him back, away from the
edge. The wind soon fades and the wounded Jedi begins to drop fast,
unable to grab onto anything to break his fall.

Suddenly Luke is sucked into an exhaust pipe in the side of the shaft.
When Vader sees this, he turns and hurries off the platform.

Yeah, not quite the same. Once again, Luke, while talented (especially for such limited training) has done nothing to make me think he is AotC Anakin's superior in either Force or lighsaber aptitude.

JT
Uhm... NOPE! Vader isn't one of the greatest swordsmen ever. Post-Mustafar Vader falls a little short of Dooku in sabers.

haermm

I'm unsure if thats mocking laughter or genuine.

It's disbelief laughter.

You mean becuase Vader beat Dooku in sabers?

N.
You mean becuase Vader beat Dooku in sabers?

No, because the idea of "falling a little short" of Count Dooku in swordsmanship means one doesn't rank among the greatest swordsmen ever is a little perplexing.

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
No, because the idea of "falling a little short" of Count Dooku in swordsmanship means one doesn't rank among the greatest swordsmen ever is a little perplexing.

Define "greatest ever" requirements and include the number of swordsmen that can be on that list. For example, "strikes a second, strength, the list can only be 10 long".



Once that is defined, then we can start making claims.



Anakin, pre-suit, may very well be among the top 20 duelist of all Star Wars history.

The top two are easy choices, but what about after that?

Dooku's easily top 10.

It's JT's reasoning (which I suspect was facetious in nature) that I disagree with. Dooku's feats and accolades lend significant credibility to the claimidea that he ranks among the saga's greatest and most skilled duelists.

Post-ROTS Darth Vader may or may not be included among that number, but the idea that he doesn't strictly because he "falls a little short" of someone like Dooku isn't really tenable. After all, Agen Kolar was noted to be among the greatest swordsmen ever produced in the Jedi order, but was manhandled by Palpatine.

Okay, a couple of things to add to the convo, and a couple of things to expound on. First, Dooku is revered as one of, if not the greatest duelist in the Rise of the Empire era, you can look that up on many different sites. His knowledge of Makashi is unrivaled...even yoda said so.
Second, why is everyone writing off post-suit Vader? His ability faltered at first because of the learning curve, but after he learned how to move in the suit, he changed his saber form, and from there only became stronger.
Thirdly, though Anakin does have more experience/training then Luke at this point, Luke is known for being able to learn a saber form just by watching it performed, and by RotJ, he is a Master of 2 forms of lightsaber combat. So on that note, Luke takes sabers.
On force abilities, i think it would be close, but again, Luke takes it. He may not have the experience, but I really think his calmer nature will win out over the young anakins, brash, semi-self-destructive power.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Faster?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frCIQfpMOyo

Go to 1:15

And thats ESB Luke. Force Speed. Padawan Obi-Wan pulled a similar job in TPM. As neither Luke nor Anakin have ever swung their saber as fast as Force Speed propels their body, it means nothing. I watched the rest of that duel (for the bazillionth time) and I saw no movement of Luke's that impressed me as much as the speed and comparartive grace that Anakin possessed against Dooku.



Course we have computers and digitally timed choreography to thank for that, but I think that was my point from the beginning.

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
No, because the idea of "falling a little short" of Count Dooku in swordsmanship means one doesn't rank among the greatest swordsmen ever is a little perplexing.

Yeah softy, the "little short" comment was sarcastic. Truth be told, Dooku would saber rape post-Mustafar Vader repeatedly while making him cry uncle. It's really no contest. And as I've stated previously, nothing RotJ Luke has done on screen has lead me to believe that he is > than AotC Anakin as far as Force ability, not to mention lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by XornonJay
...and by RotJ, he is a Master of 2 forms of lightsaber combat.

Quote please?

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah softy, the "little short" comment was sarcastic. Truth be told, Dooku would saber rape post-Mustafar Vader repeatedly while making him cry uncle. It's really no contest.



Lets see a little bit about Vader's saber skills shall we.

Shortly after RotS he toys with two skilled Jedi Knights:



Effortlessly defeats Aurra Sing:



From his duel with Starkiller on the Dath Star. Note that Vader's attack knocks Starkiller back and this guys is physically able to throw Tie Fighters.



More from TFU:



From the perpestive of Ferus Olin:



And there are many more examples of Vader's amazing skill and speed.

So no. Dooku may be able to defeat Vader in a saber duel (i'd argue Vader would win), but the idea that Dooku would trounce him is laughable.

Well done, my child. Well done.
Though I'm hesitant to say that Dooku would lose in a strict clash of lightsabers.

Well naturally. Dooku would (easily) beat even Sidious, why not his pet?

N.
Well naturally. Dooku would (easily) beat even Sidious, why not his pet?

Whoa, yeah, almost forgot about that annoying little fact.

It may be annoying but we must learn to accept it. Only then can we reach the enlightenment held by our peers.

Our betters.

Betters, yes, betters sounds... well.... better.

I really, really, really dislike reading all those b*tchin quotes of Vader's power and speed, but then go on to read G-canon lines from the RotJ novel that has Vader's similar G-canon portrayal of a comparatively slow and lumbering fight, beaten by neophyte Luke's likewise pedestrian speeds.

Anyway, fantastic post ares. Vader has long been underestimated in sabers. He's definately notthe slow-ass ***** the movies made him out to be. The limitations of technology and special effects are to blame imo. The EU offers a vastly different perspective.

The ROTJ novel is G-canon? :O

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, fantastic post ares. Vader has long been underestimated in sabers. He's definately notthe slow-ass ***** the movies made him out to be. The limitations of technology and special effects are to blame imo. The EU offers a vastly different perspective.

The ROTJ novel is G-canon? :O That's right, RotJ wasn't written by Lucas, so it'd be C-canon wouldn't it?

The only parts of a novelization that can be G-canon are elements that are directly approved of or produced by Lucas.

So it's very possible that Vader really did throw the fight in RotJ? Or was Lucas' intention always that Luke beat him legit?

My interpretation (and I'm sure, others as well) was that Vader was winning and going easy on him during the majority of the fight, but when Luke got angry Vader just couldn't keep up.

Vader not keeping up even at that stage when the EU has him doing shit like what Ares posted... there's just no way to rationalize it. The only hope I'm clinging to is that every character who describes another is grossly exaggerating.

I don't think so. Presumably Luke wasn't that far behind. I mean it only took him a few years to be near Palpatines level. And Luke tapping into the darkside would likely gain a huge increase. A Skywalker unleashing his full potential? Dooku lost both hands to that, Vader was lucky to get away with only one.

Originally posted by dadudemon
At the end of it all...I still pretty much agree with everything you posted. It's more Lucas trying to justify that actual need to have to improve some of the things...like dueling...from the OT. It's a decent justification unless you think about it with any level of intelligence. Bingo.






Still bothersome though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My interpretation (and I'm sure, others as well) was that Vader was winning and going easy on him during the majority of the fight, but when Luke got angry Vader just couldn't keep up.

Yeah, I don't think Vader was going all out on Luke either. Vader truely loved his son and did not want to kill him. He broke free from the dark side's hold and turned on his master out of love for Luke, and it's not like he started to love Luke and feel conflicted the minute Palpatine started torturing Luke. No, Vader was conflicted thoughout the entire movie. The movie's main focus was Vader's conflict between his compassion for his son and his identity as a dark lord of the sith. The New Essential Guide to Characters says that Palpatine urged Luke to kill a dying Vader, which would most likely be implying that his identity as a sith lord was fading by allowing his love for Luke to conflict him, and thus not finding it in his heart to actually harm Luke.

But merely holding back does not mean Vader allowed Luke to overwhelm him like that. No, that would still require lot of skill on Luke's part. And regardless of how sloppy Luke may have looked onscreen, I believe George Lucas intended for Luke to be a skilled duelist by the time of ROTJ.

So in the end, after all the back and forth banter, Anakin wins.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Force Speed. Padawan Obi-Wan pulled a similar job in TPM.

I forgot about that



Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Course we have computers and digitally timed choreography to thank for that, but I think that was my point from the beginning.

Its just that seeing ROTJ time and time again, it just seems to me Luke was legitimately beating Vader.

Even before he entered his rage he was still forcing Vader back and kicked him onto his rear. So even if Vader wasn't going for the kill, he didn't have to hold back THAT much where he's getting kicked around. And in ESB he showed he's willing to batter Luke at least.

Plus Yoda and Obi-wan both telling Luke to face Vader now.

And he was declared a Jedi Knight. So how can a Knight be a skilless novice?? It makes no sense.

Thats why I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
...I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.

Because he's Count ***king Dooku!! One of the ten (maybe even 5) greatest duelists in galactic history (Jedi, Sith, or otherwise).

Post-Mustafar Vader might be a beast, but in sabers, he's nowhere in Dooku's league.

Well I disagree, and I also disagree that Luke loses. AOTC Anakin hasn't done jack all in sabers that makes me think he's anything but average at best. He did not give Dooku a good fight at all. Years after the fight the good Count regarded him as a complete joke in regards to his lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Its just that seeing ROTJ time and time again, it just seems to me Luke was legitimately beating Vader.

Even before he entered his rage he was still forcing Vader back and kicked him onto his rear. So even if Vader wasn't going for the kill, he didn't have to hold back THAT much where he's getting kicked around. And in ESB he showed he's willing to batter Luke at least.

Plus Yoda and Obi-wan both telling Luke to face Vader now.

And he was declared a Jedi Knight. So how can a Knight be a skilless novice?? It makes no sense.

Thats why I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Post-Mustafar Vader might be a beast, but in sabers, he's nowhere in Dooku's league.

You must have missed my post...

I personally wouldn't consider Count Dooku quite top ten material. Characters that would beat him out of his spot, in my opinion:

Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Kas'im
Kaox Krul
Darth Bane
Lord Hoth
Raskta Lsu
Yoda
Darth Sidious
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker
Luke Skywalker
Darth Caedus
Kyle Katarn

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

I don't recall him doing much of anything tbh.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Its just that seeing ROTJ time and time again, it just seems to me Luke was legitimately beating Vader.

Even before he entered his rage he was still forcing Vader back and kicked him onto his rear. So even if Vader wasn't going for the kill, he didn't have to hold back THAT much where he's getting kicked around. And in ESB he showed he's willing to batter Luke at least.

Plus Yoda and Obi-wan both telling Luke to face Vader now.

And he was declared a Jedi Knight. So how can a Knight be a skilless novice?? It makes no sense.

Thats why I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers. Exactly! Luke genuinely beating Vader in RotJ is a-OK with me. I'm fine with that.

What I'm not fine with is Vader's standing within the EU as an extremely powerful and fast Force-user and duelist. I don't wanna risk being called a purist, but the speed they move at in the OT is laughable compared to the duels of the PT. They're hurling rocks and doing cool jumps, chucking pods, Lightning... and they swing those swords very, very fast. The original movies don't. Fact. I've always preferred the stance that Vader and Ben and Luke were just less powerful and skilled because of injuries, age, and inexperience, respectively. That fit so well.

Until the EU came along and made Vader in to the powerhouse we all see him as. Advances in movie-making technology aside, Vader's godly powers just flat disappear during the OT. And as someone who dislikes speculating, I don't wanna start doing it whenever "But you gotta consider the lack of computer technology in the 80's" is brought up. The harmonization process between the EU and the OT (hell, even the PT) can't be decisively completed.



Chewbacca lives on Endor, so it doesn't make sense.

I'm not really saying that only visuals can be used. I'm saying that the huge leap forward in skill and speed between the OT and everything else is just way too noticeable. The movies are supposed to be the highest form of in-universe canon, but half of them depict rather slow and ponderous movements. If we tried doing that whole "Imagine what it would look like if the technology was available", we'd be sitting around endlessly debating each other's speculations.

The RotJ novel may provide more detail and background, but its accompanying (higher canon) movie flat out shows cumbersome fighting. The very same, equally-canon PT media, show us graceful, elegant, flashy, and fast fighting. Before the EU turned Vader and OT Luke in to Force titans, their lack of speed and grace made sense. But now, thanks to the EU, we have to speculate and pretend "what they should look like." I don't like doing that, since every one of us here has used the "canon>your interpretation/opinion/imagination" argument before.

IIRC Chee said there was no contradiction between the speeds in the movies and the novels. Meaning Vader really is that fast.

Originally posted by ares834
I've never really have a problem with it. First off I never viewed the movie duels as happening at "real" time. I mean look at the Windu/Sidious duel.

Exactly. Luke vs Vader looked better to me than Mace vs Sidious.

We cant just judge fights by how they look, otherwise Maul > Sidious and Windu.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloudus
I personally wouldn't consider Count Dooku quite top ten material. Characters that would beat him out of his spot, in my opinion:

Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Kas'im
Kaox Krul
Darth Bane
Lord Hoth
Raskta Lsu
Yoda
Darth Sidious
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker
Luke Skywalker
Darth Caedus
Kyle Katarn

Lesse, Hoth, Kaox Krul, Ulic, and Katarn I'd all drop from that list.

If you're going to include Krul, Crain Maru should be included too, mutual-killing after an epic battle as they did, but neither have much in the way of feats other than their fight with each other, and others were noted as the best duelists of the Brotherhood.

Ulic and Katarn are both very good, but surpassed by others in their eras. I think saying they're better than Dooku is a bit of a leap, badass as they are.



---
Personally I think it also gets to a point where it's hard to make a "top X" number because, between all eras, the very best tend not to be too far apart, so you have more than 10 people in these rough levels where you could easily argue one or another and not be wrong either way.

wait wait wait who the fvck is "Zonakin"

Originally posted by lord starkiller
wait wait wait who the fvck is "Zonakin"

"Zonakin" is the local shorthand for Anakin Skywalker at roughly the level of competence he displayed upon the Invisible Hand in the novelization of The Revenge of the Sith. Skywalker's wildly fluctuating demonstrated ability in that source has prompted additional clarification when he is used in fights. For example, his rage brought down a factory in Labyrinth of Evil but then he is incapable of Force Pushing Kenobi on Mustafar.

And I strongly disagree with the motion to remove Ulic from his position above Dooku.

oh ok thnx

Zonakin---I coined that.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Zonakin---I coined that.

clap


And as for the thread's topic, I see ROTJ Luke being at the level of
mid-CW Anakin. Therefore, I see him better than AOTC Anakin.

He probably has similar Force standings. Half a year later he was doing some pretty impressive stuff in Shadows of Mindor. Though I'm very hesitant to say he has the same saber prowess as even AotC Anakin, or TPM Kenobi. He received little to no formal lightsaber training and had to learn from scratch on the job. Kenobi and Anakin each had several decades (decade and 1/2 for Anakin) in saber training.

Still, to do what he did against Vader was impressive. Luke seems to have an extreme talent for picking up on skills.

While there's little formal training, I imagine he must've run the moves Vader did at Bespin through his mind thousands and thousands of times while training between ESB and RotJ, with the force probably helping guide him to the right moves.

He did. He was very adept at copying Vader's styles and modifying them for his own purposes. Probably what made him such a saber god so soon in to career. But not circa RotJ. He may have legitimately overwhelmed Vader, but Obi-Wan's, and certainly Anakin's on-screen saber stunts were far more impressive, in speed, precision, and overall technique. I don't see Luke analyzing and formulating much of an ad hoc defense against any PT opponents.

If you ignore all other evidence, and see the PT and OT are being parallels, then ESB Luke would roughly translate to AOTC Anakin. And ROTJ would roughly translate to ROTS Anakin (though not in the "zone".

Hmm mm...


...



**** all that.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
If you ignore all other evidence, and see the PT and OT are being parallels, then ESB Luke would roughly translate to AOTC Anakin. And ROTJ would roughly translate to ROTS Anakin (though not in the "zone".

Whoa whoa, no way.

ESB Luke could barely TK his lightsaber to himself, whereas AotC Anakin solo'd a tuskan village, half of a droid army, and while not scoring any remote victory, put up a heck of a fight against Dooku (And by that I mean he lasted more than five seconds). Luke couldn't use the Force to pull his zipper up until at least RotJ, and even then he's still barely a padawan.

Which makes it all the more gay that he beat Vader legit.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which makes it all the more gay that he beat Vader legit.

Tapping into one's rage can make an otherwise lopsided fight decisive for the underdog. Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Luke have all experienced fortuitous indulgences of rage.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Tapping into one's rage can make an otherwise lopsided fight decisive for the underdog. Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Luke have all experienced fortuitous indulgences of rage. Obi-Wan still lost, Anakin won, and Home Run Luke beat Darth F*cking Vader. I never thought I'd dislike such an important addition in a movie's novelization, but... f*ck RotJ's narrative.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Obi-Wan still lost,

I think Maul would have twice the disagreement with you that I do.

Get it? Twice, 'cuz he was bisected by Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which makes it all the more gay that he beat Vader legit.

I will never accept this. It just rings of wrong on so many levels. Hell, half of the suspense of the movie fight was suspecting that dad was taking the fall for his son, making his redemption more accepting and dramatic. To find out that he just sucks after all these years, beat by a padawan-level Force user, is sad. That's like Rambo being taken out by Beatle Bailey.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To find out that he just sucks after all these years,

He doesn't.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

No, he really sucks. Losing to Luke "I might just be swinging at an invisible pinata" Skywalker is like C-3PO beating Qui-Gon Jinn; it's foul and not canon-friendly.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, he really sucks.

No, he really doesn't. Vader was conflicted and Luke was being empowered by the dark side. It's a frighteningly easy concept that spares Vader denigration and comports itself with canon, so I think we should go with that. uhuh

It's gotta be the one thing from the OT novels that I find so horrendous. What was the author thinking when he wrote that scene?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
No, he really doesn't. Vader was conflicted and Luke was being empowered by the dark side. It's a frighteningly easy concept that spares Vader denigration and comports itself with canon, so I think we should go with that. uhuh

I find myself agreeing with this. Vader doesn't suck, and Luke isn't uber.

Life is so much simpler now. Thank you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's gotta be the one thing from the OT novels that I find so horrendous. What was the author thinking when he wrote that scene?

How can I make 100 bucks before the movie comes out?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Life is so much simpler now. Thank you.

You are most welcome. I make it my mission to enlighten worthless heathens such as yourself. My divine light will chase the shadows from every darkened corner of your twisted, foolish psyche.

I said "ignore all evidence."

In ESB, Luke fights against Vader but is highly outclassed. In AOTC, Anakin fights Dooku but is highly outclassed.

In ROTJ and ROTS, both Anakin and Luke tap into rage to defeat these earlier opponents. Though we see the difference between them in the ultimate results.

Perhaps it's because of the cinematography of the older days, but I feel Luke was intended to be AOTC Anakin's level in ESB. And intended to be ROTS Anakin's level in ROTJ. Of course, once you include evidence, then it is quite otherwise.

But the parallels are there.

You're starting to sound like my psychiatrist. Cease, demon! CEASE!

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I said "ignore all evidence."

In ESB, Luke fights against Vader but is highly outclassed. In AOTC, Anakin fights Dooku but is highly outclassed.

In ROTJ and ROTS, both Anakin and Luke tap into rage to defeat these earlier opponents. Though we see the difference between them in the ultimate results.

Perhaps it's because of the cinematography of the older days, but I feel Luke was intended to be AOTC Anakin's level in ESB. And intended to be ROTS Anakin's level in ROTJ. Of course, once you include evidence, then it might be otherwise.

I note the obvious and no doubt intended similarities, but I still protest the idea of ESB Luke being on par with a Jedi of ten years' training. Evidence or no, it just doesn't fit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're starting to sound like my psychiatrist. Cease, demon! CEASE!

I am the Senateyour psychiatrist!

*Saber ignites*

You may Psycho Crusher now.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I note the obvious and no doubt intended similarities, but I still protest the idea of ESB Luke being on par with a Jedi of ten years' training. Evidence or no, it just doesn't fit.

When does training from a young age ever matter in the Skywalker family?

Originally posted by Korto Vos
When does training from a young age ever matter in the Skywalker family?

Padawans can deflect blaster bolts.

ANH Luke can't.

Padawans can grab light sabers and go toe-to-toe with Maul in the case of Obi-Wan, who is NOT noted as being a Force prodigy and nearly got a lifetime of Agriculture Corps.

ESB Luke barely can.

Just saying.

Well I doubt most of those Padawans would have lasted as long as Luke did against Vader in ESB.

Of course not, they're just dumb kids.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well I doubt most of those Padawans would have lasted as long as Luke did against Vader in ESB.

They would if they were his sons.

I'm fairly positive Zett Jukassa would not have lasted that long.

He's GL's son. He could solo Ragnos with Nihilus riding on his shoulders.

Oh riiight, I forgot.

GL cares less about canon then we do. It's sad.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I think Maul would have twice the disagreement with you that I do.

Get it? Twice, 'cuz he was bisected by Obi-Wan.

Not really. Obi-Wan was calm when he defeated Maul. His anger boost was during the lightsaber duel portion of the fight which he lost anyway like Lucien pointed out.