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Starkiller employing Juyo/shien Vs. Windu employing vaapad.

Sabers would go to Mace, no question. But Marek could overwhelm him with his Super Saiyan Force attacks.

Mace is strong and skilled enough in the Force to defend himself from being overwhelmed by SK's Force attacks (Maces Force feats are pretty ***king incredible too). And Mace is DEFINITELY the superior swordsman. Mace Windu wins this.

Force = Galen
Sabers/all out = Mace.

Mace takes this.

Starkiller wins IMO.

Originally posted by Galan007
Force = Galen
Sabers/all out = Mace.

Agreed.

Tough fight! I'd love to see this haha

Mace= saber/all-out
Galen=Force

imo

All out I'd say Mace. Close-quarter superior saber skills with a closely-matched Force prowess will give Mace the win more times than not, I feel. Especially if this is Sith Marek, he'll be completing Mace's Vaapad.

Force: Starkiller

Sabers: Mace

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Especially if this is Sith Marek, he'll be completing Mace's Vaapad.

Yeah, using the dark side against Windu is a big no no.

We see in the ROTS novelization that it takes time for Mace to submerge himself in Vaapad; the metaphysical superconducting loop of Vaapad is neither instantaneous nor limitless as demonstrated by the source material; Palpatine, despite enormous disadvantages, took the offensive and drove Mace back into the greater office and Mace, even in the very depths of Vaapad, could only match Palpatine's power (never surpass it).

Mace is unquestionably the more skilled duelist (though Marek is a Juyo master Fight Saber]), due to his prodigious physical attributes, shatterpoint charism, and more extensive dueling/combat experience.

But though Windu is considerably powerful in the Force (something for which he is routinely underestimated), Starkiller's feats dwarf Windu's by several orders of magnitude. Early!Starkiller struggled immensely with Shaak Ti, a Council member who, while enormously skilled, was definitely Windu's inferior.

Later!Starkiller, on the other hand, handily defeated Darth Vader and "tanked" Emperor Palpatine's Force lightning (something Mace Windu didn't do).

If this is early!Starkiller, he probably loses due to Windu's superior skills as a swordsman and not inconsiderable talents as a Force user. Later!Starkiller, on the other hand, enjoys a tremendous advantage in Force powers and I don't believe Windu will have the chance to submerge himself in Vaapad to steal a win.

We should include punctuation marks in names more often.

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
Later!Starkiller, on the other hand, handily defeated Darth Vader and "tanked" Emperor Palpatine's Force lightning (something Mace Windu didn't do).



And the evidence would show Palpatine's Force Lightning being considerably more powerful by the time he fought Starkiller as well.

Though she could've gotten better in intervening years.

She did affect an entire planets Force alignment.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the evidence would show Palpatine's Force Lightning being considerably more powerful by the time he fought Starkiller as well.

Really? Mind expounding on this?

Jinsoku Takai
Really? Mind expounding on this?

He instakills Jedi in Dark Empire, incinerates dark side mages in that one comic in which Vader duels a resurrected Darth Maul, and annihilated ~50 stormtroopers in the comic Betrayal.

But, if I remember correctly, Palpatine's lightning disintegrated a Sith wyrm in Sithisis, so I doubt it increased dramatically.

I think he'd have no problem insta-killing ordinary Jedi in the PT. It's just he almost exclusively fights badasses.

I see Mace winning this after an extremely close duel.

Windu without a doubt. Starkiller is strong but it's rather clear he can't tango with the PT top tiers.
Dooku, Windu, Yoda, and Sidious are all out of his league imo.

^ He was more powerful than Vader.

So he would seem to be better with the Force than Dooku or Mace, so there can therefore be a case for him challenging and even defeating either of those 2.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ He was more powerful than Vader.

So he would seem to be better with the Force than Dooku or Mace, so there can therefore be a case for him challenging and even defeating either of those 2.

He struggled against Shaak Ti however. And Shaak Ti is Kenobi's inferior.
Look at the treatment Kenobi got from Dooku.

A>B>C fail.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
A>B>C fail.

Not A>B>C
Shaak Ti isn't even in the league of Mace Windu or Count Dooku in sabers or in the force.

Vaapad is used best against aggressive styles. Combine that with Shatterpoints and Master Windu is the worst foe that Galen could face in the PT.

^ We dnt know how much Shaak Ti had improved in Sabers by the time of TFU.. And her Force powers on Felucia were certainly impressive.

Also you talk abou the treatment Kenobi got from Dooku, well that was with the Force and Starkiller has much better Force feats than Dooku.

But if you want to use A>B>C, then how about this: Starkiller defeated Vader who defeated Kenobi : )

He 'struggled' with Shaak Ti after fighting through hordes of her force sensitive warriors. And she had a fvcking Saarlac on her side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ We dnt know how much Shaak Ti had improved in Sabers by the time of TFU.. And her Force powers on Felucia were certainly impressive.

Also you talk abou the treatment Kenobi got from Dooku, well that was with the Force and Starkiller has much better Force feats than Dooku.

But if you want to use A>B>C, then how about this: Starkiller defeated Vader who defeated Kenobi : )

YOu mean when Kenobi wanted to die or did you mean when both of them were in their primes.. and Kenobi mauled Vader so he couldn't even live without his suit?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOu mean when Kenobi wanted to die or did you mean when both of them were in their primes.. and Kenobi mauled Vader so he couldn't even live without his suit?

Vader wasn't in his prime the first time he fought Kenobi.

When was Vader's prime then? We know it wasn't after because he was damaged so bad.. that he could never have a prime after that point. So.. the prime vader did have was certainly during Episode 2 or 3 and clearly it should be 3 as he even mentions in 3 his skills are far better than 2. Thus.. if Vader did have a prime it was during Episode 3 and that Vader got beat...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
When was Vader's prime then? We know it wasn't after because he was damaged so bad.. that he could never have a prime after that point. So.. the prime vader did have was certainly during Episode 2 or 3 and clearly it should be 3 as he even mentions in 3 his skills are far better than 2. Thus.. if Vader did have a prime it was during Episode 3 and that Vader got beat... You're thinking about Anakin's physical prime, when his muscles were most taut.


Vader's prime in terms of Force prowess was during his time in his suit. Somewhere around the OT apparently. If not, then TFU.

Typically when we speak of prime we're talking about physical prime... not mental prime or any other variable really. So, when someone says their prime.. we all know that means physical prime.. and thus.. I was spot on correct?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Typically when we speak of prime we're talking about physical prime... not mental prime or any other variable really. So, when someone says their prime.. we all know that means physical prime.. and thus.. I was spot on correct? No, because in Star Wars your body may be able to benchpress 250, but Palpatine couldn't summon a Force Storm when he was in his 30's. In fact, in the case of Anakin/Vader, Vader may have been lacking physical mobility, but the 45 year old cyborg could exert much more power with his cybernetics than his 22 year old self. He could also exert more power through the Force, as that comes with experience not muscle mass.

I still say that in both force and skills, he reached his max in the PT before being Darth Mauled.


I consider the EU separate...cause it is.


If you look at some of the force abilities Vadar uses in the OT...they are not very impressive compared to his EU exploits.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I still say that in both force and skills, he reached his max in the PT before being Darth Mauled.


I consider the EU separate...cause it is.


If you look at some of the force abilities Vadar uses in the OT...they are not very impressive compared to his EU exploits. No they're not, one of the greatest discrepancies. But considering this is an EU forum...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But considering this is an EU forum...

I consider them separate because they are, by GL himself.

His EU force feats are incongruous with his OT feats.

Why did I bring that up?

Lemme explain: someone said, earlier, something about Vader beating Obi-Wan.

That version of Vader was obviously much slower and less skilled, with sabers, than his younger version.

BUT NOT SO IN THE EU!



Meaning...we shouldn't really be using that version of Vader to back up a particular opinion because of this:

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But considering this is an EU forum...


It's beautiful, right?

Double quote whaa? Anyways, EU forum means all versions are taken in to account, movie and otherwise. May the discrepancies drive you mad.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Double quote whaa? Anyways, EU forum means all versions are taken in to account, movie and otherwise. May the discrepancies drive you mad.

I know. This is the place I made my first posts. cry


My point was actually agreeing with you.

I used a portion of your post to drive home the ultimate point: this is the EU forum. Meaning, using one version that has a retardedly low showing won't fly. The "separate" comment was why it's rediculous to try and rationalize both sides.

Hence the futility of we geeks to debate fictional characters!

Starkiller's Force prowess keeps getting brought up as if it's the end all be all of any combat situation between him and Mace Windu (who is in a whole other league in terms of lightsaber prowess). Some of you people are forgetting that Mace Windu's Force showings are VERY VERY impressive as well. And while Starkiller might have a very s l i g h t edge in this department, it is by no means a whitewash. Remember this:

7A07WNupEXk&feature

It's canon.

What proof is there that is mace windu? If he can do force speed and force jump and force destory droid why didnt he do any of that against Palpatine and count Dooku?

Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
What proof is there that is mace windu?
What proof is there that you just wrote that goofy shit?

Clearly you have no proof.

****ing troll!! Bye bye!!

Must be another insanely powerful Jedi with a purple lightsaber that looks EXACTLY like Mace Windu from the Clone Wars mini-series that fought in this particular battle. Too ****ing bad that he didn't wear his name badge.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, because in Star Wars your body may be able to benchpress 250, but Palpatine couldn't summon a Force Storm when he was in his 30's. In fact, in the case of Anakin/Vader, Vader may have been lacking physical mobility, but the 45 year old cyborg could exert much more power with his cybernetics than his 22 year old self. He could also exert more power through the Force, as that comes with experience not muscle mass.

You see, it's clear where the disconnect has happened. Somebody mentions that vader beat kenobi... which is what prompted my response about their first encounter. Lets forget about the fact that Kenobi let himself be killed for a sec and focus on the actual fight and skills displayed. When Vader won... he didn't display any force powers at all during that fight.. none. Thus force powers wouldn't be what we are talking about when describing vader prime against Kenobi. In fact, during their first fight Vader displayed more force powers then he did against Kenobi. So, while agree when talking about Star Wars... their could be a force prime, which is why I said typically. However, in most cases when talking about prime, it's their physical prime. Even specifically talking about Kenobi vs. Vader.. the only fight which comes close to both of their primes was the fight in Episode 3... Their shouldn't be much argument on that point, which was the point I was making.

...But if you must know - watch Clone Wars Chapter 13.

Edited to clarify that this was in reference to Jedi_Padawan666's ridiculous post.

So because he looks a bit like Mace Windu and has a purple lightsaber it HAS to be him? Why didnt Mace use force jump to avoid getting hit by Jango Fett's flamethrower? How comes he didnt just land when aplatpine threw him out the window? I am afraid it is YOU who has the ridiculous post.

"Must be another insanely powerful Jedi"

Mace Windu is NOT insanely powerful and is in fact one of the weakest Jedis we see in the movies. The Jedi from the cartoon is a lot stronger and Mace Wiondu cant do half of his force powers.

Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
So because he looks a bit like Mace Windu and has a purple lightsaber it HAS to be him? Why didnt Mace use force jump to avoid getting hit by Jango Fett's flamethrower? How comes he didnt just land when aplatpine threw him out the window? I am afraid it is YOU who has the ridiculous post.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
...But if you must know - watch Clone Wars Chapter 13.




Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
"Must be another insanely powerful Jedi"

Mace Windu is NOT insanely powerful and is in fact one of the weakest Jedis we see in the movies. The Jedi from the cartoon is a lot stronger and Mace Wiondu cant do half of his force powers.


Yes, right, I must have forgot. One of the weakest Jedi put Sidious on his ass (legitimately per George Lucas).



Watch the episode I directed you to, read the SW source material, and quit ignoring canon.

Whatever retard go suck Mace Windu's dick. It's purple.

If youre too stupid to see that Palpatine let him win and could have IN FACT killed him at one point but chose not to attack him, and was moving way slower than he was in his giht against Yoda, i think ill stop wasting my time with you. Anyone can see he elt Mace Windu kill him so that Anakin would turn to the darkside.

Are you going to assume that Yoda and the Jedi we see in the knights of the old republic are the same character just because they look the same and both use a blue lightsaber?

Wrong my misinformed little friend. Per George Lucas - Mace legitimately defeated Sidious. Regardless of what we see onscreen (limited by the actors abilities), George Lucas' statements are the highest form of canon. If GL states that x happened because y did this, then guess what? THAT'S HOW IT HAPPENED. It's NOT rocket science.

Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
Are you going to assume that Yoda and the Jedi we see in the knights of the old republic are the same character just because they look the same and both use a blue lightsaber?

Once again - WATCH Clone Wars episode 13.

BTW - Yoda uses a green lightsaber.

Where? If it was on the Ellen show or something it doesnt count.

Find it yourself, genius.

"Once again - WATCH Clone Wars episode 13."

Bullshit i have seen every episode of the cartoon and not once do we see Mace Windu except in the jedi council room.

What George Lucas says in his personal life is worthelss seeing as he was probably joking.

You clearly made the whole thing up, systems *****.

This is pointless. You're a ***king troll. Reported and put on ignore. Peace!!

Youve become a laughing stock in front of all of your friends. Congradulations!

Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
Youve become a laughing stock in front of all of your friends. Congradulations! Congradulations? You're a moron!

Good job sticking up for your friend queer.

Cut out all of the namecalling, right now.

Peach, you should close new registrations.

She was talking to all of us.

Anyway I think it goes without saying that the sith apprentice destroys Mace.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Peach, you should close new registrations.

Agreed. Far too many sock accounts being created.

Or at least make it 18+ to get rid of retarded kids.

cause that always worked....

...'cause TJ is still here.

lol, guilty.

Mace has done a ton of badass stuff. Aside from the cartoon, which is Mace, he's also in novels like Shatterpoint, Clone War comics, etc..

Folks please don't feed the troll.
Anyway, a the top front line Jedi General of the war will defeat Starkiller imo.

I recall someone somewhere posting a source stating that the Clone Wars cartoon's feats are exaggerated and are themselves non-canon, though the events surrounding them are. I'm pretty sure that a few episodes of the Clone Wars CGI show (a definite T-canon) re-tell some of the cartoon's stories in a less flashy manner.

No, the feats in the Clone Wars are most certainly canon. The creator of TFU also said that the Force feats were "exaggerated" and "over the top." Should we then discredit SK's showings because the game was meant to convey Force usage in this manner? No, of course not. At the end of the day, Mace Windu has the feats from the video credited to him.

Actually yes we discount TFU game because those mechanics are part of the non-canon game. The novel is taken.


But if you want the glaring and horrible discrepancy between CW cartoon Force feats and the exact same characters failing to re-perform those feats during the exact same year in the novels and CGI show, go right ahead.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Actually yes we discount TFU game because those mechanics are part of the non-canon game. The novel is taken.


But if you want the glaring and horrible discrepancy between CW cartoon Force feats and the exact same characters failing to re-perform those feats during the exact same year in the novels and CGI show, go right ahead.

Well shit man, it wouldn't be Star Wars without the discrepancies now would it? Yes Canadian, I'll take two of those.

I personally think it's pretty biased to think you can just discount some canonicity simply because you think it doesn't fit. I could say the same about pretty much any powerful feat in the mythos that I don't like. (he doesn't reproduce it later, therefore NON-CANON!) It's pure crap.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Or at least make it 18+ to get rid of retarded kids.

Hahahaha your clearly in your 50's. The internets for young people grandma.

"Anyway, a the top front line Jedi General of the war will defeat Starkiller imo."

Despite the fact that even the best Jedis in the war didn't display half the power that the Apprentice did?

Originally posted by truejedi
I personally think it's pretty biased to think you can just discount some canonicity simply because you think it doesn't fit. I could say the same about pretty much any powerful feat in the mythos that I don't like. (he doesn't reproduce it later, therefore NON-CANON!) It's pure crap.


This.


Like I was pointing out to Lucian (he agreed, it was against something someone else, earlier, had stated), earlier, we also can't do the same for low-showings.

Star Wars is a massive universe with a continuity thats constantly evolving. Some inconsistencies were bound to happen.

^ Yeah but what he did on Dantooine is more than just a minor inconsistency.. It completely contradicts anything and everything we see in the rest of the SW Universe.

I prefer this as proof of what Mace Windu is capable of with the Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2uJaUxquw8&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Especially at 1:05

The way I see it theres 2 ways of looking at the feats in cw mini:

1) Exaggerrated so non-canon or
2) Exaggerated so a One-Off.

I think the Link Ive posted is enough proof of his Force Power without having to refer to CW Mini.

EDIT: Oh and this at 1:20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

Deflecting Sidious's Lightning puts Mace's Force powers within the elite few.

Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
Hahahaha your clearly in your 50's. The internets for young people grandma. Yes, that's it son.

DP, you can "see it" any way you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's canon, whether you like it or not. And there was nothing in the video you linked us to that really contradicts what happened on Dantooine (in my opinion of course). Leland Chee defended it as canon and to top it off, GL stated that it was canon as well.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
DP, you can "see it" any way you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's canon, whether you like it or not. And there was nothing in the video you linked us to that really contradicts what happened on Dantooine (in my opinion of course).

Hey JT I didn't post those links to contradict Cwmini, I posted them as more reliable showings of Mace's Force Powers. Crushing Destroyer Droids is pretty Uber IMO.

If we say the Cwmini feat is canon, thats fine, but it was still just a One-Off. We've seen nothing like that from Mace again. Id personally go by more consistent showings, and not One-Offs (especially where the One-Off was in a cartoon thats been quoted to be Exaggerated by more than one source).

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Leland Chee defended it as canon and to top it off, GL stated that it was canon as well.

They said the "Feats" were canon? Where?

If I remember right Leeland Chee said feats that contradict what we see in the Films are Not-Canon. Ask True Jedi about that quote (cause he wasn't too happy about it at the time Lol)..

And I know Dave Filoni has said the Cw mini showing of Force Powers were "Exaggerrated. I think Borbarad posted some quotes of that once.

Nothing that Mace does in the Dantooine video contradicts the movies, DP.

Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666

Despite the fact that even the best Jedis in the war didn't display half the power that the Apprentice did?

Rivi-Anu temporarily lifted a Venator class star destroyer. Not just guide one as it fell, but preventing it from falling and crushing her clone army and Jedi allies.

Originally posted by Q99
Rivi-Anu temporarily lifted a Venator class star destroyer. Not just guide one as it fell, but preventing it from falling and crushing her clone army and Jedi allies.

Please don't feed the troll like I did.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Nothing that Mace does in the Dantooine video contradicts the movies, DP.

What about in AOTC? If we go by the Dantooine feat, Mace should have solo'd on Geonsia right?

The fact that he did something at one point then didn't do it again at another, when you think he should have, doesn't qualify as a contradiction. So again, what Mace Windu did on Dantooine doesn't contradict anything else he's done. Inconsistencies of this nature are common in the SW universe but do not necessarily erase a character's abilities.

...Moreover, while the movies are the ultimate level of canon, it should be noted that the CW mini-series episode 13 was presented to and approved by George Lucas AFTER AotC came out. Therefore, it's not a stretch to say that GL thought that the battle of Dantooine was a better indicator of what Mace Windu was capable of at the time than what he had showed in the movie (which came out earlier).

...And, while a little off-topic, I now understand why so many people have left this forum. Common sense (as much as can be found while debating a fictional universe anyway) simply doesn't exist here anymore. I'm really not sure if it ever has. Frustrating.

I think they left becase of boredom actually. Or being banned.

...Or the intolerance to common sense being utilized when discussing certain topics.

No Common Sense on these boards?! Are you kidding me? This is Common sense right here:


Originally posted by Jedi_Padawan666
What proof is there that is mace windu? If he can do force speed and force jump and force destory droid why didnt he do any of that against Palpatine and count Dooku?

"Force destroy droid"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No Common Sense on these boards?! Are you kidding me? This is Common sense right here:

I know, right? LMAO!!

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think they left becase of boredom actually.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think they left becase of boredom actually.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
...Or the intolerance to common sense being utilized when discussing certain topics.

Or bacase of really bad speeling.

I missed out one letter. How does that qualify as 'really bad spelling?'

old soldiers never really die, they just fade away.

Originally posted by truejedi
old soldiers never really die, they just fade away.

...and after that... they die.

Originally posted by truejedi
old soldiers never really die, they just fade away. SPARTAN's never die, they're just missing in action.

Well I'd still vote for you.

Your endorsement will swing a large percentage of the voters.






The other way!


Buzzinga.

Love that you said Buzzinga. Though I always consider it spelled Bazinga.

star killer would blast him with even mor powerful lightning that sidious blasted mace with so that goes to starkiller starkiller has the if not greatest the awseomest force stregnth in the galaxy as shown in force unleasehed he managed to deafeat vader and could of killed sidious while mace failed at that so i give compleately to starkiller as he is the best

Originally posted by lord starkiller
star killer would blast him with even mor powerful lightning that sidious blasted mace with so that goes to starkiller starkiller has the if not greatest the awseomest force stregnth in the galaxy as shown in force unleasehed he managed to deafeat vader and could of killed sidious while mace failed at that so i give compleately to starkiller as he is the best

Ehh...no.

wow that's a long terrible run-on sentence. KV, this is why we took to blasting the noobs until they fled.

Originally posted by truejedi
wow that's a long terrible run-on sentence. KV, this is why we took to blasting the noobs until they fled. ok i just woke up i dont care about my grammar and yes to me mace windu was incredibly powerful in lightsaber combat and the force . Also starkiller has more feats in the force so i give it to him

lol, don't even worry about it.

Originally posted by truejedi
wow that's a long terrible run-on sentence. KV, this is why we took to blasting the noobs until they fled.

Understandable.



You should care about grammar and forming proper sentences. People may not take you or your arguments seriously otherwise.

Fine I will do better on my grammar I am new here and is just a very young teenager i will from now on try my best as I should

Ragnos solos.