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Who is the weakest anime/manga character who can defeat current Madara? Death note or things like that don't count. He gets his 6 paths and all of his abilities. He can use any tactic including BFR.

I think he can beat people far above the "naruto universe" power level thanks to the extremely cheap abilities at his disposal.

are we allowing sharingan techniques to work on non-chakra having characters?

Yeah.

Hm, tough one... I'm thinking of some that can do it but would be major overkill, but I'm having more problem with 'weakest'.

Perhaps someone from Tenchi Muyo, who have demonstrated the ability to drag people out of space warps at higher level.

I think the Espada are a good match up. They have garganta so BFR is useless, and since they are menos pulling out a soul will hardly phase them. Barragan in particular is a strong candidate since his time manipulation is the perfect counter for izanagi. I think Madara would beat any of the shinigami though.

how would he beat Tosen?

Just teleport out of the sphere. Then he could use a chibaku and swallow the entire bankai whole.

Though now that I remembered his genjutsu, I think the espada could fall as well. He entranced Yagura who was supposedly immune to genjutsu, while the espada's illusion resistance is zip.

wasn't even thinking about Tosen's Bankai. Tosen can't see so sharingan is useless.

That's just one power, at this point just one of many. Currently he has his paths, which means six jinchuuriki abilities.

Originally posted by marwash22
wasn't even thinking about Tosen's Bankai. Tosen can't see so sharingan is useless.
He doesn't even need it to beat him. He can just use his rinnegan and space/time.

Originally posted by Q99
Perhaps someone from Tenchi Muyo, who have demonstrated the ability to drag people out of space warps at higher level. Who from Tenchi Muyo...? I ask this because most characters I can recall would easily crush Madara.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Who from Tenchi Muyo...? I ask this because most characters I can recall would easily crush Madara.


Yea, that's the problem. A bunch of them can do it, but it's still enough overkill that I doubt they're the 'weakest'.

How would Aizen stack up against Current Madara?

Ukoku Sanzo? He's got spatial manip as well.

I think Aizen would win due to his shikai. Of course, who knows. Maybe Madara would actually get off his illusions first since he just needs to look while Aizen needs to speak. It would be a good fight. Nobody in Bleach has defenses against illusions, so maybe a sharingan user in bleach would have been effective against kyoka suigetsu. There's really no way to know. I do know that a soul-rip should be effective against Aizen.

I'm not familiar with Saiyuki. What powers does he have that would be effective?

Sharingan should be able to see through his Shikai just fine. So I don't think Aizen could be Madara personally.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think Aizen would win due to his shikai. Of course, who knows. Maybe Madara would actually get off his illusions first since he just needs to look while Aizen needs to speak. It would be a good fight. Nobody in Bleach has defenses against illusions, so maybe a sharingan user in bleach would have been effective against kyoka suigetsu. There's really no way to know. I do know that a soul-rip should be effective against Aizen.

I'm not familiar with Saiyuki. What powers does he have that would be effective?

With the Hogyoku embedded, Aizen is likely beyond any attack of Madara's, minus that Soul Rip. But that requires Madara to physically restrain him, and I doubt that's going to happen.

Immunity to attacks/negation of attacks, Spatial manipulation/negation, and the ability to remove anything within a certain range from existence.
Also, some of the higher tier characters from the Samurai Deeper Kyo series could beat Madara, but most of them are >>> Aizen, so it wouldn't answer your question, assuming Aizen can beat Madara.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Sharingan should be able to see through his Shikai just fine. So I don't think Aizen could be Madara personally.

How would the Sharingan see through his Shikai?
As far as we know, it's pretty much unbeatable, and like only one person has even realized that they were under hypnosis, but they were still unable to break the hypnosis.

Even if Aizen cannot damage Madara due to Izanagi, it's not like Madara can damage Aizen either.

Well, it was unbeatable to bleach. But it is not like anyone in bleach really has any protection from it either. While recognizing you are in an illusion and dispelling it is a key part of ninja training, and the sharingan only enhances that. I'm not so sure Aizen can beat him.

Madara could possibly get a win by entrancing Aizen as well.

Tell me about these samurai deeper kyo guys?

Meh, I'm still not sure how Madara could beat Aizen's shikai well I'm not convinced anyway. Madara would have to touch Aizen's sword in order to get out of the effect plus he's a speedster in his verse as well. Probably not as fast as Minato's FTG but he.

I'd wager Hao Asakura would destroy current Madara. Hao with Spirit of Fire has the destructive power and resources to put Madara down for good IMO based on what he's shown.

I do wonder about the Samurai Deeper Kyo's powers. I only saw the anime so I don't have a good assesment over their powers.

I think Hao would stomp. When I talk about cheap abilities, Hao makes Madara look reasonable.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
How would the Sharingan see through his Shikai?
As far as we know, it's pretty much unbeatable, and like only one person has even realized that they were under hypnosis, but they were still unable to break the hypnosis.

Even if Aizen cannot damage Madara due to Izanagi, it's not like Madara can damage Aizen either.

Well, the sharingan allows the user to see through illusions. His Shikai is merely a very convoluted illusion. An experienced sharingan user like Madara wouldn't likely have any problem with it.

He can remove his soul with a touch. Or Shinra Tensei him until he dies.

I don't think shinra tensei would put a scratch on him.

Repeated usage. :O

Or use the Petra Path ability to suck him dry.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or use the Petra Path ability to suck him dry.

Then he'd better get started here:



Originally posted by NemeBro
http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu154/animenerd26/Bleach/sanbi.gif

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, it was unbeatable to bleach. But it is not like anyone in bleach really has any protection from it either. While recognizing you are in an illusion and dispelling it is a key part of ninja training, and the sharingan only enhances that. I'm not so sure Aizen can beat him.


Yea, no-one in Bleach has an illusion breaker, and we saw from Unohana that sufficiently good observation can notice something's off.

An illusion-breaker eye in 7 bodies (main Madara + paths) that also give the user superhuman analysis of details?


Thow in stuff like Deva Pain's all-direction push so he doesn't even need to know a foe's precise location, and that power isn't of much use at all here.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well, the sharingan allows the user to see through illusions. His Shikai is merely a very convoluted illusion. An experienced sharingan user like Madara wouldn't likely have any problem with it.

He can remove his soul with a touch. Or Shinra Tensei him until he dies.

Fair enough.

With a touch? Lol no. Madara needs to restrain Aizen to kill him like that, and that isn't happening. Aizen is simply too fast and strong for Madara, and whichever Jinchuurikii is Madara's Human Path. Too fast for Gedo Mazo's dragon as well.
This is a guy that's more than fast enough to blitz Madara from the start of the match. Plus with the Hogyoku in his chest, Madara's not damaging him with something like ST, or restraining him with CT.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, it was unbeatable to bleach. But it is not like anyone in bleach really has any protection from it either. While recognizing you are in an illusion and dispelling it is a key part of ninja training, and the sharingan only enhances that. I'm not so sure Aizen can beat him.

Madara could possibly get a win by entrancing Aizen as well.

Tell me about these samurai deeper kyo guys?

Possibly, but Madara's Mind-reading soul rip is about the only thing that can work against Aizen, so if he traps him, he will have to use Human Path's ability. Alternatively, I can make the case that the Hogyoku is Aizen's partner to counter genjutsu. We've seen that Reiryoku can undergo a change when transformations occur, and we've seen that the Hogyoku can transform Aizen on it's own will.

A Mid-high tier is a Lightning dodger, with Higher tier characters being faster.
Some of them have time-stops (game-breaker against Madara); petrification on sight (think Medusa - Sharingan will not stop this shit, but Izanagi could work); Thermokinesis (to the point where they can apparently lower the temp to below 0K); using one's blood droplets to create an army of indestructible constructs; an attack that if missed or blocked, will near-instantly return even stronger than before.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Repeated usage. :O

Or use the Petra Path ability to suck him dry.
Not unless Madara overpowers Aizen, which isn't happening.
Dear god, Madara's stats are being wanked now. facepalm2
Izanagi is the only thing keeping him alive against Aizen, and Aizen's more than fast enough to blitz him from the get-go.

Anyway, I (semi)change my answer. Weakest foe who can beat him would be Naruto and/or Sasuke. D'oh.
Naruto because Madara currently has Hashirama's cells. One hit from Naruto in his Kyuubi mode, and Madara's turning into a tree. 313
Naruto can keep doing this until Madara runs out of chakra for Izanagi.

Sasuke because he's > Naruto. vin

I don't read Hellsing, but apparently that Alucard guy has quantum reality manip, or something like that. How powerful is he otherwise?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't read Hellsing, but apparently that Alucard guy has quantum reality manip, or something like that. How powerful is he otherwise?

That's only for Alucard but it make him virtually omni-present and allows him to be virtually unkillable. Doesn't actually make him powerful though.

Is he powerful enough to damage Madara, and survive his attacks? Because he could then outlast Madara's Izanagi.

Also, the SDK Manga is much better than the SDK Anime. The anime does not even cover half of the story.

It means that Alucard is nigh-invincible. It doesn't have any offensive capabilities but it just means theres almost no way he can be killed. He can be everywhere. He can be in your mind. As long as he recognises himself he's unkillable, because he thinks he exists and so he does. And as a Hellsing Vamp he has illusion resistence, so Genjutsu is out.

Resistance to weak illusions you meant.

In regards to stealing Aizen's soul... Really?

Am I honestly the person who must point out this ****ing obvious detail?

Aizen's body IS a soul. A moving, functioning soul, that is just fine without a body.

Soul stealing won't do shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It means that Alucard is nigh-invincible. It doesn't have any offensive capabilities but it just means theres almost no way he can be killed. He can be everywhere. He can be in your mind. As long as he recognises himself he's unkillable, because he thinks he exists and so he does. And as a Hellsing Vamp he has illusion resistence, so Genjutsu is out.

Can he suggests thoughts to you once he is in your mind?

If not, and if genjutsu is out, then this becomes a long-ass staring contest, one which Alucard eventually wins.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Resistance to weak illusions you meant.

In regards to stealing Aizen's soul... Really?

Am I honestly the person who must point out this ****ing obvious detail?

Aizen's body IS a soul. A moving, functioning soul, that is just fine without a body.

Soul stealing won't do shit.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PXCWqG0P0q4/TDqj1f0-5hI/AAAAAAAAAqs/6ZJTESfPcZE/s400/doh-homer-simpson-doh.jpg

Aizen wins.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Resistance to weak illusions you meant.


Meh, are Madara's illusions really that much greater than Butch Chicks? I don't think he has anything that would cause Alucard to forget that he still exists.



No, he's just.... in there. Literally in there. Just chillin' out and slacking off in the recesses of you mind. It's kind of wierd.

Ahem:

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Can he suggests thoughts to you once he is in your mind?

Ahem yourself.

Here's teh video of the powers being used.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, are Madara's illusions really that much greater than Butch Chicks? I don't think he has anything that would cause Alucard to forget that he still exists. Tsukiyomi makes Zorin look like shit.

That said, only Shisui's Eye could do that.

Right now no one in Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece can beat Madara. It would have been better if the OP had put a gauntlet of verses inside, because there plenty of verses that would destroy the Naruto verse in a fight.

Umm honestly please give me any feats to say that Alucard cannot damage madara because i'd sure as hell bet my money alucard would woop him post-shrodinger that is thanks to his BS where he cant be killed off.and yes Aizen could easily blitz madara so unless he has preptime its an instant lose for madara against aizen.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Or use the Petra Path ability to suck him dry.
Noone made an obvious joke about this. I am very disappointed in you all.

Aizen blitz at the beginning of the fight before he even get the chance to use his powers and hit him with a city destroying sword swipe. Fight is over and done. What level of damage has he taken to presume he could survive a single hit from Aizen?

He's got phasing, hits pass through him unless he turns it off.

Originally posted by carver9
Aizen blitz at the beginning of the fight before he even get the chance to use his powers and hit him with a city destroying sword swipe. Fight is over and done. What level of damage has he taken to presume he could survive a single hit from Aizen?

Phasing or Izanagi. He cannot take hits from Aizen obviously, nor can he keep up with his speed, but phasing will work against Aizen's attacks. Then there's Izanagi which will render damage moot, if it's active. Originally posted by SquallX
Right now no one in Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece can beat Madara.

facepalm2

Naruto - Eventually, Naruto will be able to beat Madara. Kabuto's also certain that he can best Madara, but that's not exactly accountable.
Then there's the Sage of the Six Paths, who while not as broken as Madara, is far far far more powerful.

Bleach - Anyone with high speed is capable of blitzing Madara from the start, before he activates Izanagi, or his phasing. I still maintan that Madara is incapable of damaging people like Aizen, Yamamoto, & Post-Jinzen Ichigo.
I'd wager that Tsukishima could use his Book of the End to make Madara his friend.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Noone made an obvious joke about this. I am very disappointed in you all.

Don't you know? Internets debates are SRS BZNS.

Besides, Aizen would rather use Konan, than Preta path.

your mom.

I question the idea of blitzing faster than he can phase, as well. Apparently he just needs to pretty much think, and it will happen. Since he has super-slowed perceptions from the sharingan, I think he could activate against all but the most ungodly fast. Compare how Itachi could block lightning with a similar instantaneous technique.

As thread owner, I am making a change as well to settle this. he gets 1 second prep. I was looking for someone who could beat him despite his abilities, rather than someone who could avoid addressing them.

similarly, the whole soul stealing thing. He gets full use of all his abilities working. Nobodies mentioned the "does genjutsu work on chakraless characters" thing yet, but again, it works for this thread.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I question the idea of blitzing faster than he can phase, as well. Apparently he just needs to pretty much think, and it will happen. Since he has super-slowed perceptions from the sharingan, I think he could activate against all but the most ungodly fast. Compare how Itachi could block lightning with a similar instantaneous technique.

As thread owner, I am making a change as well to settle this. he gets 1 second prep. I was looking for someone who could beat him despite his abilities, rather than someone who could avoid addressing them.

similarly, the whole soul stealing thing. He gets full use of all his abilities working. Nobodies mentioned the "does genjutsu work on chakraless characters" thing yet, but again, it works for this thread.

Fair point. Phasing can still be gotten around though, and I'd wager that Aizen would figure it out.

1 second prep. To activate Izanagi from the get-go? Then Aizen keeps killing him until Madara runs out of chakra. I still maintain that Madara has no way of putting down Aizen, outside of the now-viable Soul Rip (right?), which involves him restraining Aizen, which isn't happening.

Well, with one second he could just enter the field phased, was my thinking.

Assume the soul rip works unless a character actually has some kind of demonstrable defense to those attacks.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Compare how Itachi could block lightning with a similar instantaneous technique.




please do not tell me you think Itachi is a lightning timer -__-

He isn't. Susano'o's activation on the other hand is.
That said, Zetsu stated that Lightning was merely hundreds of times faster than Sound. RW Lightning is hundreds of thousands of times faster than Sound.

Originally posted by Coco292
please do not tell me you think Itachi is a lightning timer -__-
Fast enough to think about activating the technique... which is all it took in this case, and all it takes for Madara as well.

Originally posted by King Kandy
similarly, the whole soul stealing thing. He gets full use of all his abilities working. Nobodies mentioned the "does genjutsu work on chakraless characters" thing yet, but again, it works for this thread. Is this in reference to my refutating of the idea of Aizen having his soul stolen?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Fast enough to think about activating the technique... which is all it took in this case, and all it takes for Madara as well.

The thought to form Susano'o could have formed in his head once Sasuke told him what he intended to do with Kirin. Susano'o's activation time being faster than Naruto-verse Lightning speed, is the only thing we can be certain of.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Is this in reference to my refutating of the idea of Aizen having his soul stolen?

I'm guessing so.

Kaito, from Yu Yu Hakusho would beat Madara. easily.

What if someone nuke the area that he is in, will his intangible body aid him from this type of destruction?

Originally posted by carver9
What if someone nuke the area that he is in, will his intangible body aid him from this type of destruction?

I don't see why it wouldn't.




Mm, seems like his Taboos would be too easy for Madara to get around.

Warp out of the area and attack from the outside, for one. Genjutsu him into dropping or violating them, too.

Originally posted by carver9
What if someone nuke the area that he is in, will his intangible body aid him from this type of destruction?

Yes. But he'd die from the nuclear fallout anyway I'd wager

Originally posted by carver9
What if someone nuke the area that he is in, will his intangible body aid him from this type of destruction?
I don't see why not.

Considering it already has, yes.

Anyone with decent plant control should beat Madara.

D could probably find a way to beat Madara. Though...that is using knowledge from the books...

Sasuke can beat Current Madara because that's how Madara goes down.










1234

Originally posted by Bentley
Anyone with decent plant control should beat Madara.
??? How so?

Making his wood-jutsu infused body reject his every organ and cut his chakra flow.

Wood jutsu infused? He isn't Danzo, he doesn't have a big tree growing out of his arm. He has the (completely human) DNA of the 1st. So unless he actually uses a wood jutsu, I don't see that making much sense.

Ah ok, for some reason I was under the impression he had something similar to Danzo. It must have been the fact that he lost his limbs and he attached new ones.

Madara Prime

Come on.... that was clever =)

Madara in his Prime? I think he would lose, he could not use izanagi or the rinnegan or control the six paths.

Well, I would be inclined to think Madara in his prime would crush Madara current

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v50/c467/9.html

Round about tactics. Everything he's doing at the moment we have every reason to believe he would not have to do in his Prime.

He could have attained the Rinnegan, though the paths being Jinchuuriki is an asset given only by Kabuto, that being the only additional factor, everything else he could have set up anyway.

Personally I'm doubting their being Jinchuuriki would make up the difference. Though it is an assumption. As is anything related to Madara Prime I suppose.


Still come on. Awesome answer, right? =D

Yeah, that's what he said then. After he got his Rinnegan, he said he hungered for battle and no longer used those "roundabout" tactics but just did whatever he wanted. With the six paths in addition to himself he is miles above a Madara whose only abilities was EMS.

I'm quite confident Madara knew he could have got the Rinnegan back from Nagato, and could have set up a new Six Paths, without needing to declare war.

I think you're also forgetting it was said Madara Prime is approximately of the same strength as he would be as Jinchuuriki of the Juubi.

While personally I cannot even comprehend that kind of power existing since the juubi. That is what was said...


http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v50/c467/10.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v50/c467/15.html

That said, I have my own reservations about his really being THAT strong, but I would be more inclined to take his Prime Strength more seriously

While i've yet to see this, Six path thing he's got going on. I would say Madara Prime until I see more. Thus making him the weakest anime/manga character I'm confident can beat Current Madara.

He declared war then because that's when the kages met. Nagato had died just recently, and Madara didn't choose that date, the kages did. So that first point is completely irrelevant. He couldn't fight them before his upgrades; he has had no reservations fighting after his upgrade.

They never say his prime matched the Jubi anywhere. They ask him if he will restore his old strength, and he says it will be more than that. That doesn't prove your point, it proves the opposite.

At which point it's quite apparently talking about the infinite Tsukuyomi, as that is what he goes on to talk about immediately after making that exact comment.

And no, it is certainly not worded like that. But is it said his Prime would be about as strong as him becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki.

Try not to cross your words, it might lead to confusing yourself ^^

I am reading the same panel you do, and I don't think this translation has any implication that he'll only be as strong as his prime. The kages don't even know what his plan is yet, so they are just asking questions on their part; and you are reading way too much into his answer.

All he says is that that would be "one way of putting it, but not all". He then proceeds to explain what he's going to do, and obviously, this was more than the kages thought. That's before he mentions the genjutsu. It is obvious you are looking for something that isn't there.

Oh, Obviously.

Lol, well if you choose not to read it as it is that's up to you. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

It's quite clear, cut, and dry.

It will restore him to his full self.

He also says, "But that is not all that it will do..."

And then explains what that "additional" power will be: it will magnify his eye powers for the infinite Tsukuyomi.

I don't know how more clear it could be. This is not even up for debate. It can't be blamed on "translation" differences, either.

It's "full self" + "additional eye powers".

Precisely! See? I knew I could count on you! =D

Thank you donut- I mean! Dadude! =P

In a fight between Madara at his prime and current Madara, I lean more towards his prime going by the hype. However, since current Madara can summon that huge statue, he would probably be too much.

Speaking of hype, that's really mostly what current madara is to be fair. He really hasn't actually done a whole lot at all. The only real fight he's been in was against Konan right? If I recall he had to use Izanagi...

Not that she wasn't really ridiculously well prepared but even so... He hardly has a list of feats we know of that make us know how strong he really is yet.

What I'd like to know is WTF Hashirama did to Madara to make him an "empty shell of his former self"?


I mean...wtf?


The first and Madara are on a different level than any other ninjas except for the Great Sage, imo. Going by hype. Madara was enough to make Minato struggle...and Minato was so badass that ninjas had "flee on sight" orders. If this Madara is a weakling compared to his old self...I mean...WTF! How powerful can this get?

That means that the first was one uber badass. Yamato's wood jutsu is pretty dang powerful...but it "pales" in comparison the first's.



I WANNA KNOW THE WHOLE BACK STORY! I WANNA SEE THE FEATS! :MAD:

Hashirama took the Kyuubi out of Madara's body.

Really, Madara was the first ever secret Kyuubi Jinchuurikii. awesome

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Speaking of hype, that's really mostly what current madara is to be fair. He really hasn't actually done a whole lot at all. The only real fight he's been in was against Konan right? If I recall he had to use Izanagi...

Not that she wasn't really ridiculously well prepared but even so... He hardly has a list of feats we know of that make us know how strong he really is yet.

Yeah but going by how Nagato fought with the rinnegan recently, we can assume that Madara has the same abilities. Which woud make him a threat to all the ninja here and others from other animu.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yeah but going by how Nagato fought with the rinnegan recently, we can assume that Madara has the same abilities. Which woud make him a threat to all the ninja here and others from other animu.

Recently?

I don't think so. He has six paths too, so i would have thought his powers are split like Nagato prior. At the moment I would guess we should assume he has the power of one of the paths. Each path's powers are powerful but not so much that it would so drastically alter his own threat level, no matter which path he is.

And agreed Dadudemon. Sarutobi slapped him and the second pretty hard from what I recall. Apparently there is a whole world more to him than what Orochimaru could draw out.

Well, I believe at the time of making of this thread that Madara hadn't shown off his new 6 Paths thingy. So I was still going with the whole him having all the powers thing.

Which, it's not like it matters. In Madara's case, the 6 Paths would be way more effective than in Nagato's. So in that case, he probably could beat Madara prime.

^ Who knows. The original paths were restricted to Path abilities, with the possible exception of Deva. Of course, Madara's Paths have the Sharingan, so it's likely that they'll get Sharingan abilities as well as Path abilities.

That, and they are immortal.

and vulnerable to sealing and talk-no-jutsu.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's quite clear, cut, and dry.

It will restore him to his full self.

He also says, "But that is not all that it will do..."

And then explains what that "additional" power will be: it will magnify his eye powers for the infinite Tsukuyomi.

I don't know how more clear it could be. This is not even up for debate. It can't be blamed on "translation" differences, either.

It's "full self" + "additional eye powers".
Except, you know, things like Izanagi and the six paths which we know for a fact he didn't have back in the day. We know this because Madara himself told it to us. So if you are claiming that he had that power in his prime, you are wrong. And if you think Madara claimed such during the Kage meeting, it was either retconned or it doesn't mean what you think it means. Or Madara lied, just like he has lied about a million and a half things. But now we are supposed to take this phrase as gospel, and not only that, extrapolate it into saying that he could use Izanagi in his youth, which we KNOW is wrong.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Except, you know, things like Izanagi and the six paths which we know for a fact he didn't have back in the day. We know this because Madara himself told it to us. So if you are claiming that he had that power in his prime, you are wrong. And if you think Madara claimed such during the Kage meeting, it was either retconned or it doesn't mean what you think it means. Or Madara lied, just like he has lied about a million and a half things. But now we are supposed to take this phrase as gospel, and not only that, extrapolate it into saying that he could use Izanagi in his youth, which we KNOW is wrong.


You seem to have jumped several steps.

I do not see anyone mentioning he had Izanagi back then. Or the Six paths.

What we are saying is his total capabilities as a ninja are strongly emphasized to be significantly higher than his current at the time of the summit.

No one said he had all the powers he has now back then. We do not know how he was stronger, as it is not a topic that has been opened up in the series.

Please read what people are writing more carefully in the future to avoid this complete and utter mistranslation of a point.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
You seem to have jumped several steps.

I do not see anyone mentioning he had Izanagi back then. Or the Six paths.

What we are saying is his total capabilities as a ninja are strongly emphasized to be significantly higher than his current at the time of the summit.

No one said he had all the powers he has now back then. We do not know how he was stronger, as it is not a topic that has been opened up in the series.

Please read what people are writing more carefully in the future to avoid this complete and utter mistranslation of a point.
Well its the powers he has right now that make him so ridiculously broken right now. The main point I was trying to make with this thread was that the unique abilities he has, now allow him to take wins against characters with much greater "total capabilities" than he has. Right now you can look back on this thread, and see strong arguments for him taking the win against Bleach and One Piece characters who are way stronger than any ninja.

Even if they do have the same "total capabilities" prime Madara has no answer for any of the numerous abilities at the current one's disposal.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well its the powers he has right now that make him so ridiculously broken right now. The main point I was trying to make with this thread was that the unique abilities he has, now allow him to take wins against characters with much greater "total capabilities" than he has. Right now you can look back on this thread, and see strong arguments for him taking the win against Bleach and One Piece characters who are way stronger than any ninja.

Even if they do have the same "total capabilities" prime Madara has no answer for any of the numerous abilities at the current one's disposal.

Well to be honest there's no chance he's killing any of the Bleach characters i recall being spoken about (Aizen, Espada*) . One piece... I know little of so eh.

*(maybe 9, 8 & 7, simply because I don't like them and I wouldn't defend them)


The problem with your statement is you're talking like you know what he was capable of in his prime. You don't. We don't. So saying he has no answer for powers the current version has is just complete and utter nonsense. This whole thing is an assumption that he was stronger based on the words of Madara himself and Onoki. What made him stronger, we don't know. But to assume that current Madara is stronger against all evidence against would just be being obstinate. Yes, he has some very powerful tools now he didn't have back then. But by his own recognition he is 'a shell of his former self' not a perfect quote, but very near. Until proven otherwise it seems as you would say 'Obvious' that Madara in his prime is stronger than his current.

"We have no idea what new amazing shit Madara may or not be able to pull off with the Rinngean and no idea how it compares to his past powerset due to its ambiguity, therefore everyone in this discussion is arguing out of conjecture and has their head up their own ass."

The fact that that took two, almost three pages, to establish, is a crime against humanity.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
"We have no idea what new amazing shit Madara may or not be able to pull off with the Rinngean and no idea how it compares to his past powerset due to its ambiguity, therefore everyone in this discussion is arguing out of conjecture and has their head up their own ass."

The fact that that took two, almost three pages, to establish, is a crime against humanity.

Your face is a crime against humanity

That said. I established that early on. That it's only now it has to be sliced into smaller increments to be understood.... well I am less inclined to disagree with you there.

And Hey. Still trolling around are you? Lazy ass =p

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
"We have no idea what new amazing shit Madara may or not be able to pull off with the Rinngean and no idea how it compares to his past powerset due to its ambiguity, therefore everyone in this discussion is arguing out of conjecture and has their head up their own ass."

The fact that that took two, almost three pages, to establish, is a crime against humanity. Shut your stupid ass up and make me a sandwich. estahuh

Please? ._.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Your face is a crime against humanity Your mother's... face... is a.. crime... against humani...

Hey shut up. uhuh



When have you ever been inclined to disagree with me?



Hey, hey, hey. You're one to talk, little lady. You had us thinking you'd officially cleaned your hands of this place. Or did you just miss me? biscuits

Originally posted by NemeBro
Shut your stupid ass up and make me a sandwich. estahuh

Please? ._.

I'll make you a sandwhich alright, a KNUCKLE SANDWHICH, YA MOOK.

And... for the record. Everything I say here, is spoken with a cheesy New Yorker Christopher Walken-esque accent. Get with it.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Your mother's... face... is a.. crime... against humani...

Hey shut up. uhuh



When have you ever been inclined to disagree with me?



Hey, hey, hey. You're one to talk, little lady. You had us thinking you'd officially cleaned your hands of this place. Or did you just miss me? biscuits.

You know I broke my mouth's off switch a long time ag-.... wait, i take that back =|

Often, particularly when you speak =3

I was notified one of my topics got bumped. Which is actually late in itself as far as notice e mails go.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
And... for the record. Everything I say here, is spoken with a cheesy New Yorker Christopher Walken-esque accent. Get with it.

Christopher Walken.... ehh.... It's crazy! It's a question... eehh.... Why? =3

Originally posted by EvilAngel
*(maybe 9, 8 & 7, simply because I don't like them and I wouldn't defend them)

You saying they could only beat Madara if you defended them?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You saying they could only beat Madara if you defended them?

I'm saying he could claim it and I would not care ;p

The idea of them dying is a good thought =p Plus most of them have insufficient showings anyway save Zommari.

Aaroniero fought Rukia who was so emotionally wrecked from seeing Kaien she fought pretty poorly

Szayel had already countered Renji and Ishida before he engaged. Mayuri having done likewise by the time he engaged.

While we can assume whatever we like relative to how supposedly strong they were, there's little to no hard proof.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
"We have no idea what new amazing shit Madara may or not be able to pull off with the Rinngean and no idea how it compares to his past powerset due to its ambiguity, therefore everyone in this discussion is arguing out of conjecture and has their head up their own ass."

The fact that that took two, almost three pages, to establish, is a crime against humanity.

Think of a far more mobile Nagato with S/T jutsu, intangibility, Hashirama's power, and knowledge of Izanagi.
The same Nagato that effortlessly pwned Naruto & Bee in seconds, mind you.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Except, you know, things like Izanagi and the six paths which we know for a fact he didn't have back in the day. We know this because Madara himself told it to us. So if you are claiming that he had that power in his prime, you are wrong. And if you think Madara claimed such during the Kage meeting, it was either retconned or it doesn't mean what you think it means. Or Madara lied, just like he has lied about a million and a half things. But now we are supposed to take this phrase as gospel, and not only that, extrapolate it into saying that he could use Izanagi in his youth, which we KNOW is wrong.

There is not one thing you posted that disagrees with me. Full self + additional eye powers.

If you read any more into Madara's word, you're wrong. We know it will restore im to full power...because he said so and others assumed it would. If you want to call "lies".

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I'll make you a sandwhich alright, a KNUCKLE SANDWHICH, YA MOOK.



How dare you make me laugh at 80s highschool movie humor.

Snap.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There is not one thing you posted that disagrees with me. Full self + additional eye powers.

If you read any more into Madara's word, you're wrong. We know it will restore im to full power...because he said so and others assumed it would. If you want to call "lies".
So you are claiming Prime Madara had Rinnegan/Izanagi? That's the only way that he would be the same as current.

Lol.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So you are claiming Prime Madara had Rinnegan/Izanagi? That's the only way that he would be the same as current.

You can answer that question by going back and re-reading what I posted.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You can answer that question by going back and re-reading what I posted.
Is the answer "no"? That would be the correct answer.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Is the answer "no"? That would be the correct answer.

My answer would be more correct, however.

Anyone Herald level and above

Adam Kadmon from Angel Sanctuary.

Kid goku during the second tournament.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Kid goku during the second tournament. Madara would solo part 1.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Madara would solo part 1.

Kid Goku would launch him to the moon with the power pole and then blow it up with a single kamehameha wave. Madara is not even close to Roshi in terms of force. Your logic is flawed.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Kid Goku would launch him to the moon with the power pole and then blow it up with a single kamehameha wave. Madara is not even close to Roshi in terms of force. Your logic is flawed.

That feat is clearly an outlier. In the Daizenshuu, it is said that King Piccolo's blasts are as powerful as nuclear bombs. So unless you want to argue that the Dragon Ball moon is tiny af, then you should drop it. Not to mention Madara's vastly superior combat speed.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
That feat is clearly an outlier. In the Daizenshuu, it is said that King Piccolo's blasts are as powerful as nuclear bombs. So unless you want to argue that the Dragon Ball moon is tiny af, then you should drop it. Not to mention Madara's vastly superior combat speed.

Are you high?

The Daizenshuu states King Piccolo can easily shoot blasts equivalent to nuclear bombs. You know, like when he blew up an island with a single wave? If you need scans, I can provide them.

Since you accept the Daizenshuu as cannon though, you also accept that Tien can punch faster than the speed of light, correct? It is stated in the early volume, so... yeah. Not to mention Kid Goku dodged those light speed punches, making him FTL. Madara can't even dream of light speed. Hiraishin makes someone go LS, and it has blitzed even Jyuubito, who was much stronger and faster than Hashirama, Madara's superior. Kid Goku also dodged photons, which move light speed. Madara gets ROFL-blitzed by Taopaipai.

Roshi blew up the moon, and you don't even know what an outlier is. Get over it, fangirl.

Please provide the scans then. And since you want to play it that way, Obito's Kamui teleportation is light speed according to Zetsu. Matter of fact, so is Haku's Mirror Reflection technique, and it makes sense too. So yes, Madara is far above light speed if we use statements like that. Whichever way you want it, Madara stomps.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Please provide the scans then. And since you want to play it that way, Obito's Kamui teleportation is light speed according to Zetsu. Matter of fact, so is Haku's Mirror Reflection technique, and it makes sense too. So yes, Madara is far above light speed if we use statements like that. Whichever way you want it, Madara stomps.

Show scans. Haku said he could transport himself through the mirrors. That gives no speed indication whatsoever. My car transports me to work. I guess I'm also light speed. Obito was never stated to be lightspeed, neither was his kamui. If Kamui was lightspeed, why did Kakashi have trouble warping a rocket flying at Choji? Even if it was, it has effortlessly speed blitzed anything else in the series. No one can hit Obito unless they figure out his weakness in that form, or are above light speed with normal reaction, which kid Goku is.

You expect me to provide scans when you can't yourself? **** off. Not to mention you just made all three of those "feats" up off the top of your head. In fact, I'll post the real scans in a sec.

http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8/43-396.0/compressed/naruto_396_binktopia.07.jpg

And Haku's technique allows him to move at light speed. I don't know how that's not combat speed.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Please provide the scans then. And since you want to play it that way, Obito's Kamui teleportation is light speed according to Zetsu. Matter of fact, so is Haku's Mirror Reflection technique, and it makes sense too. So yes, Madara is far above light speed if we use statements like that. Whichever way you want it, Madara stomps.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-30-13/naruto/chapter-25.html

Haku stating that his jutsu transports him from one mirror to the other. Nothing about light speed.

http://a.mwfile.com/manga/p/3173/289085/7.jpg

King Piccolo easily destroying East City with a wave. The Daizenshuu provides a map of the DBZ world, and this City is bigger than Papaya island.

http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/49961/6.jpg

Kid Goku easily dodging condensed photon lasers like they're slow.

The 'teleporting between mirrors is lightspeed' comes from databook 1.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8/43-396.0/compressed/naruto_396_binktopia.07.jpg

And Haku's technique allows him to move at light speed. I don't know how that's not combat speed.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, DO YOU NOT SEE THE ****ING FOOTNOTE? THE ONE THAT SAYS "This is a hyperbole"?? You're a ****ing retard bro.

Also, I just posted the scan for the Haku thing. It says he can transport from one mirror to another. Nothing about light speed.

Originally posted by Q99
The 'teleporting between mirrors is lightspeed' comes from databook 1.

I own a few of the databooks. The first is one of them. Nowhere does it say anything about light speed in the entire first databook. It says Haku can transport from one mirror to another, nothing about light speed or teleporting(which would be instant, not light speed, dumb ass).

'Instant' and 'light speed' are effectively synonyms over the kind of distances we're talking about.


Mind you, hand me a laser pointer and I have a 'lightspeed attack'. A function being 'lightspeed' doesn't make someone lightspeed.

I find the idea of anyone from DBZ or Naruto being lightspeed combat speed (as opposed to instant transmission or mirror transfer) to be silly ^^ I mean, they regularly *take time to travel places*. Every time they do so is direct evidence it's not light speed.

Originally posted by Q99
'Instant' and 'light speed' are effectively synonyms over the kind of distances we're talking about.


Mind you, hand me a laser pointer and I have a 'lightspeed attack'. A function being 'lightspeed' doesn't make someone lightspeed.

I find the idea of anyone from DBZ or Naruto being lightspeed combat speed (as opposed to instant transmission or mirror transfer) to be silly ^^ I mean, they regularly *take time to travel places*. Every time they do so is direct evidence it's not light speed.

Maybe to us, but if someone can go a thousand times FTL, they're still not instant.

Goku dodged a laser that was larger than him. He dodged photons. He's FTL.

I guess, but battle speed and flight speed are vastly different. They constantly state in DBZ that they save ki while flying to use in a fight when they reach the point they're flying to. They only go full speed while traveling when they need to, like when Goku on Namek flew all the way across the planet(which was ten times larger than Earth) in less than the time it took Frieza to punch Vegeta(while he was holding Vegeta, so less than a second). Even then, they save their ki for battles, so they can move fast enough to tag people who move instantly, like perfect Cell did.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, DO YOU NOT SEE THE ****ING FOOTNOTE? THE ONE THAT SAYS "This is a hyperbole"?? You're a ****ing retard bro.

Also, I just posted the scan for the Haku thing. It says he can transport from one mirror to another. Nothing about light speed.

That's the translator's note, not the author's. It bears no meaning to the canon. Other translations don't even have "hyperbole" down there.

http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/6/7/0/b/124456/8.jpg

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Kid Goku easily dodging condensed photon lasers like they're slow.

So has Captain America. And beginning of Z Goku's Snake Way feat is pathetic if he was actually light speed or above at a much earlier point in his life.

Anyway, you proved that you don't know anything about Dragon Ball in the other thread. Have fun with your false assumptions and opinions fam.

He can fly after someone on Earth and not be there immediately. He's massively STL, as visibly, repeatedly, regularly demonstrated.


Not even remotely close!

And here's a thing- dodging something doesn't require being remotely near it's speed. If someone fires a laser at me from a lightsecond away, I can easily dodge at perfectly human speed. No matter how fast the attack, *I* only have to go one body width. Heck, even if someone was fired two bodywidths away, the person would only need to go half the speed of the attack.



When you get to the point when people are arguing FTL punches and such, it just means numbers are being tossed around without real conception of what they mean.

Originally posted by Q99
He can fly after someone on Earth and not be there immediately. He's massively STL, as visibly, repeatedly, regularly demonstrated.


Not even remotely close!

And here's a thing- dodging something doesn't require being remotely near it's speed. If someone fires a laser at me from a lightsecond away, I can easily dodge at perfectly human speed. No matter how fast the attack, *I* only have to go one body width. Heck, even if someone was fired two bodywidths away, the person would only need to go half the speed of the attack.



When you get to the point when people are arguing FTL punches and such, it just means numbers are being tossed around without real conception of what they mean.

When has Goku ever flown somewhere and not been there in a few seconds? The anime/manga is shown from Goku's(mostly) POV, because it would be boring to watch a bunch of random explosions with some dialogue from beat up characters afterwards. Snake way was the exception, but Goku was deprived of nutrients, and didn't know how to fly(hardly) at all. He was tired after flying for just a few seconds at full speed, which is still slower than his battle speed on the ground, as stated when he fought Frieza, and fought him on ground because Frieza could fly so easily and use his battle-speed while in the air. Goku is faster on ground than in the air, until probably the point when he fought Cell or at least went into the ROSAT.

Here's the thing- Goku traveled more distance than the laser did, in the same time frame the laser did. The laser was only a few feet away from him, and he jumped on a building to dodge it in the same time it took the laser to travel less ground. Just like with Taiyoken, Goku traveled more distance than light did, in less time. Goku is FTL, easily.

Again, it was stated multiple times that they conserve nearly all of their energy while traveling so that they can use more energy in a fight.

How do you think Goku flew 5X the distance of Earth in the namek saga in less than half a second if he's slower than light?

Anyone remember when Saiyan Saga Goku took an entire day to travel the 1,000,000 kilometer long Snake Way?

Boy I do.

Lol, "laser".

Originally posted by NemeBro
Anyone remember when Saiyan Saga Goku took an entire day to travel the 1,000,000 kilometer long Snake Way?

Boy I do.

Lol, "laser".

Anyone remember when Namek saga Goku traveled half the distance of Namek(5X the distance of Earth) in less than half a second? Or when Kid Goku ran all around Earth chasing Yajirobe several times in a minute without getting winded? Or when he moved more distance than a laser did in less time? Or when everyone on this ****ing site had explained to retards like you at least once that battle speed and flight speed are completely different because they use barely a fraction of their ki while traveling to conserve energy?

Boy I do.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Anyone remember when Namek saga Goku traveled half the distance of Namek(5X the distance of Earth) in less than half a second?

No because it didn't happen.



Read above.



Prove it was lightspeed.



Go back to trying to get a pity **** from your mother. You might be slightly more successful at that than what you're doing right now.

>combat speed argument

Oh dear, this won't go well

Cool it, SSJGGogeta and NemeBro.

Christ on his cross! Can't people have a debate without name calling?

Stop it and calm down!

Dammit. You children. I said this realm is supposed to be a haven where we adults work our shit out without involving mods. This was supposed to be a secret corner on KMC where no mod had felt the need to moderate.

One, no, and I *do* remember Freiza and others having to spend time getting to places on Namek. Heck, running from and chasing Cell were both things that happened in the next arc.

Two, you're talking significantly slower than lightspeed in that case anyway.

Originally posted by Q99
Two, you're talking significantly slower than lightspeed in that case anyway.

No. It is almost c if it ix 5 times the circumference of the Earth.

Do recall Freiza's finals form taking until Dende finished his wish to speed over to the dragon about 3 miles away.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Do recall Freiza's finals form taking until Dende finished his wish to speed over to the dragon about 3 miles away.


PIS and dramatic effect: Akira Toriyama's favorite pastime.

Originally posted by Impediment
Cool it, SSJGGogeta and NemeBro.

Christ on his cross! Can't people have a debate without name calling?

Stop it and calm down! no u

@ Nemebro: On the back of DBZ volume 10, it says Goku awakens on the other side of the planet. I have the scan.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124813/2458648-goku_flight_time_expalnation.jpg

When Krillin and Roshi fought in Dragon Ball, they did a multitude of battle maneuvers and had an entire fight including many punches and even procrastination. They threw several punches each and several kicks in less than a fifth of a second. Frieza, being millions of times stronger than those two combined, was able to throw a punch in much less time, around a 2 millionth of a second, along with multiple other maneuvers, like Roshi and Krillin did. This is the bare minimum possible for him, when using only 6 million of his 120 million power level. Goku flew all the way around half of Namek(as I just posted proof of), in less time than it took Frieza to throw a punch when he was actually trying. That constitutes much FTL just as it is. You can deny it all you want, but the proof is there. Deal with it.

@ BloodRain: When Dende already started with the wish, Frieza still made it there before he finished the wish, they were on opposite sides of the planet(the dilation shown for exaggeration most likely), and Frieza didn't get his wish only because he didn't speak Namekian.

@ Q99: I also recall Supergirl flying from and outpacing PC Superman. Just because you can go FTL doesn't mean you can instantly catch someone who's as fast as or faster than you. That's a 5 year olds fail-logic, pal. Not to mention Cell could hide his ki and still move FTL because of his biology and android heritage.

Not just that, going 5 times Earth's circumference in less than half a second(really about a 2 millionth of a second), constitutes about 45% faster than light speed.

@ Impediment: Okay, I'm cool, I'm cool... I'm calm.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Not just that, going 5 times Earth's circumference in less than half a second(really about a 2 millionth of a second), constitutes about 45% faster than light speed.

Earth's circumference: 40,075 km

Speed of light in kmh: 1,079,252,850 kmh



I assume you're getting your numbers about the size of Namek from the narutoforums:

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=16051

They conclude 3.5 times as large as the Earth's.

So going 3.5 times the earth's circumference in half a second:

40,075kmh/.5s = 80150km in 1 second.


80150 kms to hours: 80150*3600 = 288,540,000 kmh


288,540,000 kmh/1,079,252,850 kmh = .267 = 26.7%


It is 26.7% the speed of light.


It just so happens I can do Lorentz Transformation (relativistic mass) math. I'm skipping the "show your work" part because that would take too long to type out.

At 26.7% of the speed of light, the relativistic change factor becomes ~1.038 meaning that Goku's mass would increase by by a factor of 1.038. Not that much.



So what's next?

DDM, you forgot to multiply the distance traveled by 3.5 (actually should be multipled by 1.75 as he goes around only half of Namek). Anyway, it's roughly 47% the speed of light assuming Namek's circumfrance is 3.5 times as large as Earth's and that he flew that far in .5 a second.

Originally posted by ares834
DDM, you forgot to multiply the distance traveled by 3.5 (actually should be multipled by 1.75 as he goes around only half of Namek). Anyway, it's roughly 47% the speed of light assuming Namek's circumfrance is 3.5 times as large as Earth's and that he flew that far in .5 a second.

Multiply the numerator by 1.75 to get a different number on the final answer or multiply the final ratio by 1.75.

0.4678653385070978

Originally posted by dadudemon
Earth's circumference: 40,075 km

Speed of light in kmh: 1,079,252,850 kmh



I assume you're getting your numbers about the size of Namek from the narutoforums:

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=16051

They conclude 3.5 times as large as the Earth's.

So going 3.5 times the earth's circumference in half a second:

40,075kmh/.5s = 80150km in 1 second.


80150 kms to hours: 80150*3600 = 288,540,000 kmh


288,540,000 kmh/1,079,252,850 kmh = .267 = 26.7%


It is 26.7% the speed of light.


It just so happens I can do Lorentz Transformation (relativistic mass) math. I'm skipping the "show your work" part because that would take too long to type out.

At 26.7% of the speed of light, the relativistic change factor becomes ~1.038 meaning that Goku's mass would increase by by a factor of 1.038. Not that much.



So what's next?

This is ****ing saddening. My 10 year old niece is a better mathematician.

First of all, Earths circumference is 40,008 km.

Second of all, that times 3.5 is 140,028 km(in half a second).

Next, we take the speed of light(in km) and divide it by 60, then 60 again, then by 2. This gives us 149,896.2 km/half second.

Still not light speed. However, as I pointed out before, that's not quite correct. Roshi and Krillin threw several punches and kicks in 1/5th of a second while still toying around. They had power levels of less than a hundred each(Roshi used only 3 quarters of his power until he fought Goku, as he stated in the manga). Now, Frieza used only 6 million of his PL to stomp Vegeta. So, it would take Frieza less than a 3 millionth of a second(or 0.000003 seconds) to throw a punch AT THE MOST. Now, since Goku traveled there as Frieza threw the punch, and got there before it landed, Goku traveled there in a 3 millionth of a second AT LEAST.

So, to calculate the speed, we use the speed of light(in km) per second, which is 299,792.4 km/second. Now, we take the distance of Namek, 140,028 km, and we divide it by two because Goku only traveled half of it, which means he traveled 70,014 km. So, we can say he traveled 70,014 km in 0.000003 seconds. Now, we take the amount of time multiplied by one million, then divided by three to simplify it to one second. Now, we do the same to the distance. This makes Goku able to travel 23,338,000,000 km per second in the Frieza saga easily in base without Kaioken and with a power level of 3 million(according to the Daizenshuu). That is over 77,847.2 times faster than the speed of light, FYI.

Don't bother calcing that now, it would probably be wrong anyways.

So what's next?

But you're assuming that speed grows steadily in proportion with powerlevel in your third paragraph, I'm not sure if that assumption holds up through all the manga.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
This is ****ing saddening. My 10 year old niece is a better mathematician.

First of all, Earths circumference is 40,008 km.

Second of all, that times 3.5 is 140,028 km(in half a second).

Next, we take the speed of light(in km) and divide it by 60, then 60 again, then by 2. This gives us 149,896.2 km/half second.

Still not light speed. However, as I pointed out before, that's not quite correct. Roshi and Krillin threw several punches and kicks in 1/5th of a second while still toying around. They had power levels of less than a hundred each(Roshi used only 3 quarters of his power until he fought Goku, as he stated in the manga). Now, Frieza used only 6 million of his PL to stomp Vegeta. So, it would take Frieza less than a 3 millionth of a second(or 0.000003 seconds) to throw a punch AT THE MOST. Now, since Goku traveled there as Frieza threw the punch, and got there before it landed, Goku traveled there in a 3 millionth of a second AT LEAST.

So, to calculate the speed, we use the speed of light(in km) per second, which is 299,792.4 km/second. Now, we take the distance of Namek, 140,028 km, and we divide it by two because Goku only traveled half of it, which means he traveled 70,014 km. So, we can say he traveled 70,014 km in 0.000003 seconds. Now, we take the amount of time multiplied by one million, then divided by three to simplify it to one second. Now, we do the same to the distance. This makes Goku able to travel 23,338,000,000 km per second in the Frieza saga easily in base without Kaioken and with a power level of 3 million(according to the Daizenshuu). That is over 77,847.2 times faster than the speed of light, FYI.

Don't bother calcing that now, it would probably be wrong anyways.

So what's next?

Ares and I both beat you to it:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Multiply the numerator by 1.75 to get a different number on the final answer or multiply the final ratio by 1.75.

0.4678653385070978

That's no where near "45% faster than the speed of light", like you stated.


You ****ed up. You talked out of your ass. Someone decided to check your work and, low and behold, you were wrong.

Deal with it like an adult instead of having childish meltdowns.

Here, let me show you how it works:

Ares, yeah, man, you're right: I forgot to account for the size increase in Namek. But, since it only changes the result by a factor of 1.75, that does not change the conclusion: "It is still not faster than light." Thank you for your input, sir.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Goku flew all the way around half of Namek(as I just posted proof of), in less time than it took Frieza to throw a punch when he was actually trying. Post the scan, and provide the chapter.

Originally posted by Bentley
But you're assuming that speed grows steadily in proportion with powerlevel in your third paragraph, I'm not sure if that assumption holds up through all the manga.

Then you haven't read the manga. People are constantly getting ROFL-blitzed in DBZ, to the point where Perfect Cell's kamehameha wave even travels faster than instant transmission(which is, you know, instantaneous). SSJ2 adult Gohan was arguably still more powerful than(i.e. faster than) Perfect(not super perfect) Cell, got shit-blitzed by Fat Buu like he was stationary.

Speed typically DOES grow with along with ki, as ki is used to enhance all your abilities, including strength, speed, perception, flight speed, etc. Some people are meant to be more tanks than speedsters(like Broly, Super 13, Android 16, etc.), and some are meant to be speedsters more than tanks(Burter, Cell, Kid Buu(although he was also a tank), etc.), but overall, everyone is well rounded in all attributes. This is because ki controls nearly all attributes(biology controls the rest), and amplifies all abilities. An example is how by concentrating on his speed only, Majin Vegeta was able to blitz fat Buu, who blitzed SSJ2 Gohan, but then was also able to concentrate all his ki into a small area to completely vaporize him at an atomic level, while being stationary.

To assume speed doesn't grow with ki, or to even make the insinuation that such could be true, when it has been blatantly STATED otherwise, is completely ludicrous.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Post the scan, and provide the chapter.

http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/52831/4.jpg

I already posted the scan saying it was from the other side of the planet.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Speed typically DOES grow with along with ki, To assume speed doesn't grow with ki, or to even make the insinuation that such could be true, when it has been blatantly STATED otherwise, is completely ludicrous.

This is not what I meant by my remark, some speed is added by the growth of powerlevel, what we don't know is exactly how much speed as the power grows. The difference in how we read such ratio can lead to entirely different conclusions.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ares and I both beat you to it:



That's no where near "45% faster than the speed of light", like you stated.


You ****ed up. You talked out of your ass. Someone decided to check your work and, low and behold, you were wrong.

Deal with it like an adult instead of having childish meltdowns.

Here, let me show you how it works:

Ares, yeah, man, you're right: I forgot to account for the size increase in Namek. But, since it only changes the result by a factor of 1.75, that does not change the conclusion: "It is still not faster than light." Thank you for your input, sir.

You ignored the rest of my post. Read the entire thing before making replies in ignorance, or admit that you've lost already.

Originally posted by Bentley
This is not what I meant by my remark, some speed is added by the growth of powerlevel, what we don't know is exactly how much speed as the power grows. The difference in how we read such ratio can lead to entirely different conclusions.

True, but it can be deduced to be an incredibly significant difference, since it took Goku 25 hours to travel 1 million km with a power level of "over 8,000", and he could go around Namek in 3 millionths of a second, as I showed with a power level of 3 million. The first is 40,000 km/hour, and the second showing is nearly 78 thousand times FTL. The difference in PL is only 2,992,000, or a 375 times increase, but the speed difference is from 40,000 km/hour to 84,016,800,000,000 km/hour. That's over a 2,100,420,000 or an over 2 billion times increase. Just from that feat, power level increase means an ASTRONOMICAL speed increase for DBZ characters.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ares and I both beat you to it:



That's no where near "45% faster than the speed of light", like you stated.


You ****ed up. You talked out of your ass. Someone decided to check your work and, low and behold, you were wrong.

Deal with it like an adult instead of having childish meltdowns.

Here, let me show you how it works:

Ares, yeah, man, you're right: I forgot to account for the size increase in Namek. But, since it only changes the result by a factor of 1.75, that does not change the conclusion: "It is still not faster than light." Thank you for your input, sir.

Also, check my math again, it's all correct. I said the first equation wasn't FTL, but that wasn't the correct equation, as I can see looking back at the manga, to be deducing. So, not only were your "facts" wrong, but your math was hilariously incorrect too, as I pointed out in my previous post.

Sooo Frieza was casually kneeling down and cocking his arm back in 0.000003 seconds?

The fact that Powerlevels do not have a direct 1:1 scale to stats ("True" already puts a wrench in those workings.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sooo Frieza was casually kneeling down and cocking his arm back in 0.000003 seconds?

The fact that Powerlevels do not have a direct 1:1 scale to stats ("True" already puts a wrench in those workings.

Ok, I could calculate the increase in stats in proportion to PL then. I already proved it to be a massive increase in stats with just a small increase in PL though, so it would be even more over LS than I just posted. What I posted was the bare minimum, lol.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sooo Frieza was casually kneeling down and cocking his arm back in 0.000003 seconds?

The fact that Powerlevels do not have a direct 1:1 scale to stats ("True" already puts a wrench in those workings.

Plus, my post was made from all accurate power levels and feats that were proven. The numbers I gave were 100% accurate, and rounded to the nearest tenths.

Yes, just like Roshi and Krillin spit on each other, sneezed, played rock-paper-scissors, and punched/kicked each other dozens of times in 1/5th of a second.