The Great Evil Beast Vs Cosmic Armor Superman

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Prep-Man
Superman gets 1 month to train in the armor. Who wins?

Harbinger
GEB.

zagazum
.

Cogito
GEB.

is omnipotent.

BullwinkleMoose
GEB stomps

Batman-Prime
Stalemate.

celestialdemon
GEB

zagazum
.

Endless Mike
Apparently Primal Monitor > The Presence = GEB > Original Mandrakk > CAS (he won due to some other kind of interference or plot or something > Second Mandrakk

Omega Vision
It depends on who you like better, Moore or Morrison.

SquallX
Originally posted by Omega Vision
It depends on who you like better, Moore or Morrison.

So ****ing hard to choose between those two. sad

Omega Vision
Well Moore is now a crazy who no longer produces anything palatable (to my knowledge) while Morrison is a crazy in the prime of his career...

Galan007
I've never really cared for Moore's work. Some of it is good (Swamp Thing for instance)- but imo, Morrison plainly and simply blows him out of the water.

SquallX
I actually likes his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

But overall Morrison is a beast. Far better than that bastard John.

cdtm
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Apparently Primal Monitor > The Presence = GEB > Original Mandrakk > CAS (he won due to some other kind of interference or plot or something > Second Mandrakk

Why couldn't The Presence have created the Primal Monitor?

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
I've never really cared for Moore's work. Some of it is good (Swamp Thing for instance)- but imo, Morrison plainly and simply blows him out of the water.

They're both hit and miss, imo.. Morrison's misses tend to be bigger mind phucks then Moore's though..

Galan007
There's a difference between the Supreme Being of DC, and the Presence. The Supreme Being(s) is/are the actual writer(s) of the stories we read (ie. Morrison/Carlin, as they've been depicted.) The Presence/God, however, is a fictional 'character' the Supreme Being writes in his stories, who is obviously less powerful than his RW creator; but still more powerful than anything else in DC. That said, if we take Rann-Thanagar: Holy War at face value, the Presence/God was WELL aware of the original multiverse when it was first begat- as it created Synnar specifically for the purpose of spawning creation.

However, even the aforementioned infinite multiverse was so insignificant to the Primal Monitor (germ-esque) that it did not even know the multiverse existed until well after it was established. This, of course, is why it created the first 'probe' (Monitor) to scan what it considered a 'flaw'. Point being: the Primal Monitor seems to encompass a whole lot more than the Presence- and they most certainly are not one in the same.

Personally, I've always equated the PM as the canvas --the medium-- through which the Supreme Being(s) (the writers) are able to illustrate their thoughts. The mind of the writers made manifest, if you will. Just my opinion.

Lord Feron
I feel the GEB has to be as powerful as the Presence or greater. I remember reading an old comic where spectre and a bunch of other people. (etirgan & fate was there) trying to prevent GEB from emerging through this portal. There were a bnunch of demons and monsters trying to prevent GEB along witht he Spectre but what was coming through was a size of a mountian. They said it was but a finger or fraction of the GEB and no one was able to stop it. Not sure how that ended. BUt basically GEB aint nothing to **** with if you aint a legit supreme being.

Uriel005
Moore is too bitter IMO or at least thats what I get out of a lot of his work. It's refreshing if you haven't read anything like his work before but it gets repetitive.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
There's a difference between the Supreme Being of DC, and the Presence. The Supreme Being(s) is/are the actual writer(s) of the stories we read (ie. Morrison/Carlin, as they've been depicted.) The Presence/God, however, is a fictional 'character' the Supreme Being writes in his stories, who is obviously less powerful than his RW creator; but still more powerful than anything else in DC. That said, if we take Rann-Thanagar: Holy War at face value, the Presence/God was WELL aware of the original multiverse when it was first begat- as it created Synnar specifically for the purpose of spawning creation.

However, even the aforementioned infinite multiverse was so insignificant to the Primal Monitor (germ-esque) that it did not even know the multiverse existed until well after it was established. This, of course, is why it created the first 'probe' (Monitor) to scan what it considered a 'flaw'. Point being: the Primal Monitor seems to encompass a whole lot more than the Presence- and they most certainly are not one in the same.

Personally, I've always equated the PM as the canvas --the medium-- through which the Supreme Being(s) (the writers) are able to illustrate their thoughts. The mind of the writers made manifest, if you will. Just my opinion.

DC's hierarchy is a clusterf@!# of epic proportions. From my point of view, we don't have enough information to determine whether the Primal Monitor is greater than the Presence. He very well might be, or he might even be the Presence.

It all depends on whether you believe the germ statement to be indicative of greater power than stated omnipotence (albeit with a nod in Lucifer to the writers as creators).

Cogito
Originally posted by Lord Feron
I feel the GEB has to be as powerful as the Presence or greater. I remember reading an old comic where spectre and a bunch of other people. (etirgan & fate was there) trying to prevent GEB from emerging through this portal. There were a bnunch of demons and monsters trying to prevent GEB along witht he Spectre but what was coming through was a size of a mountian. They said it was but a finger or fraction of the GEB and no one was able to stop it. Not sure how that ended. BUt basically GEB aint nothing to **** with if you aint a legit supreme being.

The GEB is the evil half of the Presence. They merged to become complete. Before that, they should have been equals

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
Personally, I've always equated the PM as the canvas --the medium-- through which the Supreme Being(s) (the writers) are able to illustrate their thoughts. The mind of the writers made manifest, if you will. Just my opinion. And the supreme thoughts - ideas, at the edge of the stories, are represented by Mandrakk (entropy, the ultimate end of all stories) and Cosmic Superman (the defender of the concept of story, the ultimate hero).

I'd say they're more powerful than the concepts within the story, which include 'characters' like the Presence, Lucifer, Spectre etc.

psycho gundam

Omega Vision
Originally posted by psycho gundam
and amazingly the chaos king and the arc he was in managed to out-lame that tripe
Morrison writes self-aware silliness. Pak just writes silliness.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
From my point of view, we don't have enough information to determine whether the Primal Monitor is greater than the Presence. He very well might be, or he might even be the Presence. I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that the Primal Monitor and the Presence are not the same entity.

As I said before: The Presence was very much aware of the original multiverse's existence- he was directly responsible for creating it, after all. The Primal Monitor, on the other hand, is so vast that it did not even notice the multiverse had manifested within itself until well after it was established. Once it did notice the multiverse, it only registered as a germ in comparison to the PM's totality. An infinite amount of universes. A germ. Simply unreal.

Cogito
^ I don't buy that the Presence and PM are the same either, just mentioning it as a possibility in the shitshow that is DC cosmics.

Maybe the Primal Monitor is greater than the Presence, but I just don't buy the idea of anything within the multiverse being greater than the Presence (or the Great Evil Beast for that matter)

Prep-Man
I thought the GEB existed before the Presence??????

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
^ I don't buy that the Presence and PM are the same either, just mentioning it as a possibility in the shitshow that is DC cosmics. DC cosmology is pretty organized, imo.

Originally posted by Cogito
Maybe the Primal Monitor is greater than the Presence, but I just don't buy the idea of anything within the multiverse being greater than the Presence (or the Great Evil Beast for that matter) The Primal Monitor isn't within the multiverse, the multiverse is within it.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
DC cosmology is pretty organized, imo.

Organized? I still don't know of a clear explanation for:
The Source
Synnar vs. Luci/Michael
Primal Monitor
Actual power/ability of the Endless
Where the Life (white) Entity fits into creation
Powers/abilities of Monitors other than Mandrakk
What of the Lucifer series can be considered applicable in the DC Multiverse (I don't consider it canon, but I personally I believe everything that happened could happen)
etc...

If you've got thoughts, I'd love to hear them.


Originally posted by Galan007 The Primal Monitor isn't within the multiverse, the multiverse is within it.
I realize the Primal Monitor is not within the Multiverse, but Mandrakk was.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Cogito
Organized? I still don't know of a clear explanation for:
The Source
Synnar vs. Luci/Michael
Primal Monitor
Actual power/ability of the Endless
Where the Life (white) Entity fits into creation
Powers/abilities of Monitors other than Mandrakk
What of the Lucifer series can be considered applicable in the DC Multiverse (I don't consider it canon, but I personally I believe everything that happened could happen)
etc...

If you've got thoughts, I'd love to hear them.



I realize the Primal Monitor is not within the Multiverse, but Mandrakk was. Honestly in terms of the White entity I took it as something that is a knock off god lvl swamp thing and far far weaker.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
Organized? I still don't know of a clear explanation for:
The Source
Synnar vs. Luci/Michael
Primal Monitor
Actual power/ability of the Endless
Where the Life (white) Entity fits into creation
Powers/abilities of Monitors other than Mandrakk
What of the Lucifer series can be considered applicable in the DC Multiverse (I don't consider it canon, but I personally I believe everything that happened could happen)
etc...

If you've got thoughts, I'd love to hear them. I posted a version of my DC hierarchy in the Comic Books forum.

...But fyi, events in the Lucifer series do not apply to mainstream DC. They're considered completely separate continuities.

Originally posted by Cogito
I realize the Primal Monitor is not within the Multiverse, but Mandrakk was. Imo, both Mandrakk and CA Superman were as close to having Presence-level power as you can get without actually being the Presence.

But you're right- as powerful as they were, the Presence was obviously still more powerful.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Galan007
I posted a version of my DC hierarchy in the Comic Books forum.

...But fyi, events in the Lucifer series do not apply to mainstream DC. They're considered completely separate continuities.

Imo, both Mandrakk and CA Superman were as close to having Presence-level power as you can get without actually being the Presence.

But you're right- as powerful as they were, the Presence was obviously still more powerful. I thought because some of the characters who crossed into it acknowledging prior events of the series made it cannon.

Galan007
Originally posted by Uriel005
I thought because some of the characters who crossed into it acknowledging prior events of the series made it cannon. It's still a completely separate universe.

For instance: Lucifer/Michael created the Vertigo-verse. Synnar created the mainstream DCU.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
I posted a version of my DC hierarchy in the Comic Books forum.


Tried looking for it, couldn't find it.

PS: Synnar sucks. Also, the Presence leaving Lucifer and being replaced by Elaine is clearly not in continuity with mainstream DC.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
Tried looking for it, couldn't find it. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=536073&highlight=dc+cosmology+forumid%3A95

Originally posted by Cogito
PS: Synnar sucks. Also, the Presence leaving Lucifer and being replaced by Elaine is clearly not in continuity with mainstream DC. thumb up

Omega Vision
Synnar was a creation of Jim Starlin right?

Gosh that guy can't do anything right.

Galan007
Right on both counts.

Harbinger
Starlin also did the whole "Classic Beyonder's supposed to be > TOAA" or some shit, right?

Cogito
Originally posted by Harbinger
Starlin also did the whole "Classic Beyonder's supposed to be > TOAA" or some shit, right?

That was Jim Shooter, who was also the Editor-in-Chief of Marvel at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Shooter

Harbinger
F*cking Jims.

King Kandy
I saw countless people arguing that the CA could defeat THOTU. Where are those people now? I guess the Mandrakk/CA love has faded.

Cogito
^ GEB is more or less equal to HOTU

King Kandy
Or at the very minimum, in their words, "as close to having Presence-level power as you can get without actually being the Presence.

Galan007
Originally posted by King Kandy
Or at the very minimum, in their words, "as close to having Presence-level power as you can get without actually being the Presence. ...Which is true.

Doesn't mean the CA can beat THOTI, though. I don't believe I've ever argued that...

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by Galan007
...Which is true.

Doesn't mean the CA can beat THOTI, though. I don't believe I've ever argued that...

Originally posted by Galan007
CA can beat THOTI

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