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this is cvs3 !!!1!

akuma is fighting oro
oro dosent giveup
.......... oro lose

now akuma need's to face gill
akuma supriesed to see him alive after the last encounter
but it dosent matter to him

the fight starts they both fight for hours
akuma use raging demon on gill but gill was fster
so he dudged it,then gill unleashed he's full power.
metaors from the sky's curropting the whole place

oro watching them ruining tree's and wrecking the whole place.
then something happens,orochi rises
he tell them from above that they(humens)did to much destruction
to the earth and now he wants to punish them
oro joinning with them

FIGHT START'S

forgot to mention that akuma becomes oni

Gill will win this on his own, based solely off of what we know of Orochi. Orochi's power has never been explored in depth, neither has Gill's, but we know a little bit more about Gill than we do Orochi.

I would say that Orochi is one of those characters who will always be limited in VS threads because of a lack of story feats. Orochi's case isn't as bad as some of the Darkstalkers but it's still a bad/good case of the creators focusing more on plot, rather than character details.

I will say that Orochi not being able to beat Kyo and Iori, yet someone like Ash being able to do so still bothers me.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
Gill will win this on his own, based solely off of what we know of Orochi. Orochi's power has never been explored in depth, neither has Gill's, but we know a little bit more about Gill than we do Orochi.

I would say that Orochi is one of those characters who will always be limited in VS threads because of a lack of story feats. Orochi's case isn't as bad as some of the Darkstalkers but it's still a bad/good case of the creators focusing more on plot, rather than character details.

I will say that Orochi not being able to beat Kyo and Iori, yet someone like Ash being able to do so still bothers me.

Huh!! What the heck are you talking about? Ash never ever beat Iori or Kyo, he just wait the opportunity to steal their power ( when their state is pretty weak), that's all.

For this fight, like you said, Orochi a little feat but he can wipe humankind to oblivion. We don't know what Oro with two hand is able to do neither Oni's full power. Maybe the trio have the upper hand here.

Originally posted by crimson_2010
Huh!! What the heck are you talking about? Ash never ever beat Iori or Kyo, he just wait the opportunity to steal their power ( when their state is pretty weak), that's all.

Where did you get this from? On one of the KOF sites (forgot which one, it was translated on SRK, tho), all it says is, Ash defeated Iori in the Riot of Blood after Iori brutally attacked his own team. I don't remember readin' about Iori being weak, anywhere.

It's sucks, but Ash won that fight fair and square. He's stronger than he looks.

Ash defeated Iori one on one. True. But this possibly happens because of Kagura's power. Remember that Ash stole Yata Mirror from Chizuru Kagura.

And, maybe Orochi is lacking feats as a boss character. But all we know is, he is stronger than Goenitz who wrecked the entire stadium with a small portion of his power. He is strong but I don't know if he could take on Oni, Oro and Gill all by himself.

You also have to keep in mind that Gill is stronger than Juri, who is capable of destroying a Mega Mall with just a power up, and a fake version of her weapon. I think More information is needed for Orochi to be placed in a thread like this.

i agree with you all
orochi is in deep mass her
but i most say that he can take them each one
by one
but i think that orochi is really fu*k up with powers
remamber he's win pose where he slashes himself and automaticly
healed

ash's story :
"Oh, yeah! ... From there I do not remember very well, but Ash approached Yagami-san in the back and pulled out ... a soul? .. Something like that, he pulled with force and hence the Yagami-san also dropped ... " "That was when we arrived, right?"

Shingo Yabuki explaining Iori's defeat... it's from cyberfanatix. So yeah Ash didn't beat Iori fair and square like the coward he is.

agree with samirerre, Orochi could beat them one by one though.

I don't think Orochi can beat any of them, given what little we know about all parties involved. ESPECIALLY ONI.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
I don't think Orochi can beat any of them, given what little we know about all parties involved. ESPECIALLY ONI.

Pretty much what I'm thinkin. More info on Orochi has got to be disclosed if were gonna expect him to beat guys who can split seas, easily. He lacks the showings to stand a chance against Gill, let alone Oni lol. Until more is known, I vote to exclude Orochi from VS matches. Mizuchi may be another case, we can just assume that's Orochi as shown in the game.Originally posted by crimson_2010
ash's story :
"Oh, yeah! ... From there I do not remember very well, but Ash approached Yagami-san in the back and pulled out ... a soul? .. Something like that, he pulled with force and hence the Yagami-san also dropped ... " "That was when we arrived, right?"

Shingo Yabuki explaining Iori's defeat... it's from cyberfanatix. So yeah Ash didn't beat Iori fair and square like the coward he is.

agree with samirerre, Orochi could beat them one by one though.

I would like to know where they got their info from, because the ending shows that Ash and Iori met face to face. And then Ash walked away casually afterwards, with Iori defeated. I do remember that Ash did have 1 of the sacred treasures, but that still shouldn't give him the power to basically solo Kyo's team, 2 of the treasures.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/816/kyoiori3eq.jpg

Oni is on the same boat as Orochi if you ask me. Might as well just use regular Akuma.

Thing is, we don't know anything about Oni. Especially in relation to other SF top tiers. For all we know Oni would get has ass beat by Gill or Oro, or Gouken at their full power, since none of'em have ever been shown at anywhere near their full power either. Mainly since the situation for'em to go all out has never occurred.

And if the legends 'bout the Emp of the Illuminati are true, then that's a whole new ball game.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Pretty much what I'm thinkin. More info on Orochi has got to be disclosed if were gonna expect him to beat guys who can split seas, easily. He lacks the showings to stand a chance against Gill, let alone Oni lol. Until more is known, I vote to exclude Orochi from VS matches. Mizuchi may be another case, we can just assume that's Orochi as shown in the game.

I would like to know where they got their info from, because the ending shows that Ash and Iori met face to face. And then Ash walked away casually afterwards, with Iori defeated. I do remember that Ash did have 1 of the sacred treasures, but that still shouldn't give him the power to basically solo Kyo's team, 2 of the treasures.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/816/kyoiori3eq.jpg

ROFL

Iori has the whole creep stance while he says FUUUU K KYO. Gotta love the implied homosexuality http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg389/Lathseru/trollface-mini.png

Then Ash pulls the "Go home and be a family man."

Originally posted by No End N Site

I would like to know where they got their info from, because the ending shows that Ash and Iori met face to face. And then Ash walked away casually afterwards, with Iori defeated. I do remember that Ash did have 1 of the sacred treasures, but that still shouldn't give him the power to basically solo Kyo's team, 2 of the treasures.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/816/kyoiori3eq.jpg

They got the info from Ash's stroy himself, it was just translated. As for the ending, where did you see Ash and Iori meeting face to face? The only thing i see is Orochi Iori facing a unconscious Kyo and Ash getting next to Shingo. Iori was gonna kill Kyo and totally ignore Ash's presence. Ash just sneaked and ****ed up Iori...

Orochi is the son of Gaia, Gill get his ass kicked by regular Akuma,Alex, Dudley(?), Rugal gained a portion of Orochi power and it took almost the whole cast of kof 95 to beat him.
Dunno if Gill would have a chance here.
We don't know enough of Oni and Oro either but Oro doesn't impressed me cuz Akuma did better feat than him.

Originally posted by crimson_2010
They got the info from Ash's stroy himself, it was just translated. As for the ending, where did you see Ash and Iori meeting face to face? The only thing i see is Orochi Iori facing a unconscious Kyo and Ash getting next to Shingo. Iori was gonna kill Kyo and totally ignore Ash's presence. Ash just sneaked and ****ed up Iori...

Orochi is the son of Gaia, Gill get his ass kicked by regular Akuma,Alex, Dudley(?), Rugal gained a portion of Orochi power and it took almost the whole cast of kof 95 to beat him.
Dunno if Gill would have a chance here.
We don't know enough of Oni and Oro either but Oro doesn't impressed me cuz Akuma did better feat than him.

I didn't read that in Ash's story. All FAQs say he 'easily' won in a fair match. And c'mon dude, you can't be serious? Ash even comments on Iori's eyes. How can Ash see Iori's eyes from the back, dude? They have to see each other. In he 6th pic, Ash is clearly standin in front of Iori.

Gill didn't get beat up by anyone but Akuma, and neither of'em were at full power and Gill just resurrected after that. Everyone else you mentioned, Gill just casually tested and they put on a good show, so gave them what they wanted out of honor and respect. He didn't actually lose. I do know that Gill raised his hand a split a sea. That far surpasses anything Orochi has ever done at this point.

And Oro and Akuma fought to a stand still, neither actually using their full power, so they are all in the same boat and by showings, surpass Orochi, except Oro, who has virtually no showings.

akuma has dark powers which cannot even tuche orochi.
only pure flames can seal him
OROCHI IS ETERNAL
he never die

Akuma island chop says hi

even planet buster cant take him down
without using the pure flames

Originally posted by samirerre
even planet buster cant take him down
without using the pure flames That's what we call a massive no-limits fallacy. Orochi may be immune to almost anything the KOF world has offer against him, but as far as we know that does not include planet busters. Saying he can withstand planet destroying attacks is no better than assuming he can withstand galaxy or universe destroying ones, he was never tested with any of those, never.

I think he can regen pretty quick and easy from fatal wounds/injuries. As far as being mangled, limb removal, or just out-right destroyed, I've never seen evidence of him commin back from somethin like that.

the orochi we know of 97 is not th full power orochi

Which is why he shouldn't be in threads unless the OP specifies whether or not it is the 97 Version/Mizuchi or not. Hell, we don't even know how incomplete Orochi was in those games.

97 orochi was 37% of he's full power

Where did you get that number from?

oooops sorry orochi was only 26% of he's power
he head only 3 out of the 8 orochi heads

Three of the eight heads? Are we talking about the tattoo, because all 8 of the heads are present on the tattoo, iirc.

I.... Think he's reffering to the number of sacrifices used to create him... Chris, Shermie and Yashiro.

Really? Since when did they factor in as his heads? I've never heard of this before.

Neither have I TBH...

However, I do beleive that they still needed to sacrifice Yuki (Kyo's GF) to complete the ceremony, or something like that, thats why Orochi was still restricted by his human form....

I don't remember... I'm speculating on half remembered details going back over a decade ago...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Neither have I TBH...

However, I do beleive that they still needed to sacrifice Yuki (Kyo's GF) to complete the ceremony, or something like that, thats why Orochi was still restricted by his human form....

I don't remember... I'm speculating on half remembered details going back over a decade ago...

It's true, Yuki "Kushinada" should have been sacrifice to give Orochi his full power and the case could be apply to others hakkeshu ( Vice, Mature, Yamazaki and Leona)

I know about Yuki needing to die for Orochi to be fully restored but I don't remember the others ever HAVING to be sacraficed. If we know for sure what precent of his power, he was at, then we could figure out what his full, easily.

Yuki's the ancestor of the woman who was supposed to be sacrificed to Orochi... The ''3 heads'' (prob.) implies to: Yashiro, Shermie, and Chris, (chris being the vessel for Orochi and/or that those 3 killed themselves to revive orochi) or so it goes... Orochi, is an actual Japanese legend, (focus on ACTUAL) thus, he's stronger than the kusanagi sword, yata mirror, and magamata necklace, INDIVUDUALLY!! All at once he cannot overcome them, As per the legend.... So, it is probable that shin or oni akuma.. Cannot Take on Orochi...

Mr. island chop says hi... again...

Haha!! I meant to say the ancestor of Yuki is the woman who was suppose to be sacrificed... Anyway, ''mr. Island chop says hi''? That's nice... I nean being able to wipe out all humanity just pales in comparison to sinking an island

Originally posted by stargun
Mr. island chop says hi... again...

Indeed.

Destroy islands with punches in his weakest form>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Orochi has ever done.

Akuma could wipe out humanity, in like a day. All he has to do is go to Yellow Stone and punch the ground.

Didn't know the humanity was wiped out of existence in the KOF verse. Also I must have missed the part where Cell destroyed the whole Solar System in DBZ.

http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHyperbole&rct=j&q=hyperbole%20wiki&ei=vQdMTsaPAsKgsQL9n9DtCA&usg=AFQjCNH8PjKpf2h7we9KsIpqBmV7JBNSVg&cad=rja

Haha...!! Dbz.. Anyhow, how would the yellowstone thing work (curious)? And of course he didn't wipe out huamnity (what kind of story would allow that?) it's implied he can, it's why kyo, iori, and chizuru had to combine their efforts to do stop him... I mean if he weren't dangerous then they'd just let him be (Same would go for cell), so yeah, i mean, other people who have a portion of his power (small portions at that) can do some damage... Thus, IMPLYING that orochi fully powered can do said feat... But idk how u'll interpret that...

Super Volcano at Yellow Stone. If it were ever to erupt it'd be so hot it would melt most of the US and throw enough ash in the air to block out the sun across the Earth and poisonin the oceans and rivers, killin' everyone on Earth.

Interesting.. Didn't think one volcano could wipe us all out... Ah well, learn something new everyday huh? Thanks, so back to the legend thing... I am not sure if orochi can be stopped through a different method besides the 3 sacred treasures... Anyone with info. on that matter, reply at ur convenience...

Well, depends on who he goes up against. It was stated Orochi is invulnerable to humans. BUT, he has not had that power tested, so I would say anyone stronger could still kill him. Example, any high tier comic character eg: Galactus, Onslaught, The Spectre, ect ect...

Volcanos even have a measure system that's simliar to how earthquakes are measure called VEI ( Volcanic Explosivity Index )

http://www.ussartf.org/volcanoes.htm

http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/education/eruption_scale.html

exmaples taking from the two links above

VEI

0 non explosive: Kilauea

1 gentle: Stromboli

2 explosive: Galeras

3 Severe: Ruiz

4 Cataclysmic: Galunggung

5 paroxysmal: St. Helens

6 colossal: Krakatau

7 super-colossal: Tambora

8 mega-colossal: Yellowstone

So it IS stated... Didn't know that but am inclined to agree there, in which case.. I'd have to say these 3 have a good chance... Until proven otherwise... Reason being, is mostly cause orochi's based on an actual japanese deity, where as in comic book villians are based on.. Well other villians that being said... The only thing or way i've heard of him being taken down was through the 3 sacred treasures... (Or so the legend goes..) either way, orochi's dormant so no need to worry huh? But as far as this thread, full power orochi (gaia's will as it calls itself) i don't think these guys can take it (him/her whatever..) without the treasures.... Jus sayin...

Originally posted by unrealman
Volcanos even have a measure system that's simliar to how earthquakes are measure called VEI ( Volcanic Explosivity Index )

http://www.ussartf.org/volcanoes.htm

http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/education/eruption_scale.html

exmaples taking from the two links above

VEI

0 non explosive: Kilauea

1 gentle: Stromboli

2 explosive: Galeras

3 Severe: Ruiz

4 Cataclysmic: Galunggung

5 paroxysmal: St. Helens

6 colossal: Krakatau

7 super-colossal: Tambora

8 mega-colossal: Yellowstone

Hey cool man... I might look this up sounds interesting.... Go volcanologists!!

Originally posted by Innominate__1
So it IS stated... Didn't know that but am inclined to agree there, in which case.. I'd have to say these 3 have a good chance... Until proven otherwise... Reason being, is mostly cause orochi's based on an actual japanese deity, where as in comic book villians are based on.. Well other villians that being said... The only thing or way i've heard of him being taken down was through the 3 sacred treasures... (Or so the legend goes..) either way, orochi's dormant so no need to worry huh? But as far as this thread, full power orochi (gaia's will as it calls itself) i don't think these guys can take it (him/her whatever..) without the treasures.... Jus sayin...

No, it's implied at best, and never ever shown.

It's irrelevant really what he or they is based on.

And the only reason is because humans cannot normally challenge immortals unless through exploitable weaknesses. That does not give him leave to try and staonewall/no-sell attacks from beings who have proven to be far stronger through demonstrated feats. Doing so invites what is known as "A no-limits fallacy".

No limits fallacy... Well good thing i didn't mention omnipotence and well being that as it may... The reason i brought up the legend is because of how they were able to defeat said entity (orochi) and why wouldn't it matter where it's based of? Im sure alot of the SF characters are based of an ancient life force theory (chi or ki)... Is how they become stronger by tapping into this.. What, ''Spirit energy''? Which comes from nature or human spirit... And what's more than nature?(or incomprehensable to the human understanding of spirit energy?) Supernatural was it? My point is that, if this (though with it's limits and limits unkown) devine ancient thing (orochi) may only be taken down a certain way like being trapped in another dimension... Doubt anything's stronger than it... But we cannot have that can we?

Originally posted by Innominate__1
No limits fallacy... Well good thing i didn't mention omnipotence and well being that as it may... The reason i brought up the legend is because of how they were able to defeat said entity (orochi) and why wouldn't it matter where it's based of? Im sure alot of the SF characters are based of an ancient life force theory (chi or ki)... Is how they become stronger by tapping into this.. What, ''Spirit energy''? Which comes from nature or human spirit... And what's more than nature?(or incomprehensable to the human understanding of spirit energy?) Supernatural was it? My point is that, if this (though with it's limits and limits unkown) devine ancient thing (orochi) may only be taken down a certain way like being trapped in another dimension... Doubt anything's stronger than it... But we cannot have that can we?

Do not take this off on a wild tangent. A lot of media uses the Ki-Chi theory, including SNK, it's hardly contained to Street Fighter. Does Dragon Ball ring bells? Hows about King Of Fighters?

And orochi is not even limited to SNK either, Koei used the Orochi legend in their Warriors Orochi franchise, and guess what, that incarnation was ALSO killed by mortal men and women...

As pertaining to KOF; It was defeated in it's complete state by mortals using far less power than the characters I've described.Your seriously trying to compare Orochi to Galactus and say he will come out on top due to some obscure "Invulnerability"? Oh man.... The Comic Vs Forum would chew this out in a heartbeat... An Earth legend barely a few thousand years old is supposed to defeat a guy who survived the big bang from the previous universe, but EATS planets like cotton candy.... Dude, that puts him above the level of Gaia and the Dragon Spirit, two SNK entities well beyond Orochi, by at least 4 orders of magnitude. I'm not kidding. Gaia, who is supposed to be the living spirit of the Earth right? well, Galactus has devoured MANY worlds, spirit and all. and guess what, Galactus is a flea on the ass of dudes like Living Tribunal and guys like LT still arnt top tier.

A comics forum huh?? Well we're not there are we? And im aware of the living tribunal and TOAA ( the one above all... In case u forgot who's authority the LT answers to)... And here's galactus... A comicbook character.. Much like other comicbook characters and/or video game characters (i like comics but take them as just that... Comics and their characters same as i take video games... And those characters) who at any given time can be over-powerd, over-rated and all that... What i was doing was comparing a being based off an ancient japenese legend (myth, endowed with all its powers) to 3 very strong video game characters... I see your point where it's all cut from the same cloth (immaginations of people embelished with more stories and such) where in the end people can still defy and overthrow them with their human spirit, but as far as wild tangent, im not taking it out of the topic you brought more into this... does it matter? Nah... Cause we're discussing one divine being with 3 very strong ones... Do they stand a chance? Maybe, do i see it happening? Nope, because, The only way 3 other really strong guys beat it was to SEAL IT IN A MIRROR!! (ancestors did the same) so if there were any other way the orochi could be sealed id like to hear it... See it, or something... Cause as tough as people were... That's what stopped the orochi...

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Haha...!! Dbz.. Anyhow, how would the yellowstone thing work (curious)? And of course he didn't wipe out huamnity (what kind of story would allow that?) it's implied he can, it's why kyo, iori, and chizuru had to combine their efforts to do stop him... I mean if he weren't dangerous then they'd just let him be (Same would go for cell), so yeah, i mean, other people who have a portion of his power (small portions at that) can do some damage... Thus, IMPLYING that orochi fully powered can do said feat... But idk how u'll interpret that... Implied power or capabilities without anything concrete to corroborate them means little when debating fictional characters. It could be all hyperbole for all we know.

No one in KOF has ever done anything even remotely close to the equivalent of life-wiping power, therefore Orochi lacks a precedent to be placed at such levels.

And of course a being like Orochi, capable of giving ordinary humans special abilities for terrorism purposes would be considered a threat to some degree, and even more so 1,800 years ago. A man like Akuma then, capable of smashing mountains and cause vulcans to erupt would be considered the devil in person.

Originally posted by stargun
Implied power or capabilities without anything concrete to corroborate them means little when debating fictional characters. It could be all hyperbole for all we know.

No one in KOF has ever done anything even remotely close to the equivalent of life-wiping power, therefore Orochi lacks a precedent to be placed at such levels.

And of course a being like Orochi, capable of giving ordinary humans special abilities for terrorism purposes would be considered a threat to some degree, and even more so 1,800 years ago. A man like Akuma then, capable of smashing mountains and cause vulcans to erupt would be considered the devil in person.

I see... So what your saying is, orochi's only capable of Bestowing powers to people and said people can only amount to terrorism type feats? Where as in akuma, has what, god-like feats? Talk about role reversing... anyway, not including feats yet, orochi isn't a human, was basically born from earth and got pissed at humanity then waged war and was banished to another dimension.. Apparantley has lived 1800 yrs(maybe more so cause he could've been born a little after the earth was formed) can akuma live that long? Doubtful, can anyone in sf? Don't think so, as there's no concrete evidence... So my point is that no matter how you look at it akuma's a human (who's reached a tier not yet explored by other humans), this thing (orochi) is a supernatural entity and (no feats involved unless we can call that a durability feat haha!!) has already lived for centuries, was sealed in another dimension through a mirror? don't know if it can be killed defeated sure... By just akuma? Nah... The other 3 we're discussing... Hm.. Maybe, but like i said orochi's tier is pretty much god or semi-god... Don't see them being able to take him..

Originally posted by Innominate__1
A comics forum huh?? Well we're not there are we? And im aware of the living tribunal and TOAA ( the one above all... In case u forgot who's authority the LT answers to)... And here's galactus... A comicbook character.. Much like other comicbook characters and/or video game characters (i like comics but take them as just that... Comics and their characters same as i take video games... And those characters) who at any given time can be over-powerd, over-rated and all that... What i was doing was comparing a being based off an ancient japenese legend (myth, endowed with all its powers) to 3 very strong video game characters... I see your point where it's all cut from the same cloth (immaginations of people embelished with more stories and such) where in the end people can still defy and overthrow them with their human spirit, but as far as wild tangent, im not taking it out of the topic you brought more into this...

I know about TOAA, I didn't want to mention him or The Presence because those are actual Gods in the most literal sense in fiction.

You took it on a wild tangent by going off on a tirade in trying to prove Orochi's supposed Invulnerability to EVERYTHING bar the treasures, and I pointed out the no-limits fallacy that induces by providing several fictous characters who all have the ability to smash Orochi with trivial ease, because they have done so and more...

Point being, the very source Orochi claims to draw strength from (AKA Gaia) would e nothing more than a twinkie for beings like Galactus, never mind beings of the level of Eternals, Abstracts or higher. hell, Thanos, when empowered with the Infinity Gauntlet, simply Unmade half the universe in order to seduce Lady Death, an Abstract Entity....

Originally posted by Innominate__1
does it matter? Nah... Cause we're discussing one divine being with 3 very strong ones... Do they stand a chance? Maybe, do i see it happening? Nope, because, The only way 3 other really strong guys beat it was to SEAL IT IN A MIRROR!! (ancestors did the same) so if there were any other way the orochi could be sealed id like to hear it... See it, or something... Cause as tough as people were... That's what stopped the orochi...

Ok, several problems here...

#1: Orochi is not Divine. He does not meet the criteria of a God, and nor does Gaia, whom he draws strength from. He is at best, a Metahuman Immortal who can still be harmed and potentially even be killed.

#2: Define "Really Strong Guys" please. I know your reffering to Kyo, Iori and Chizuru, but simply playing the A>B>C fallacy will get you nowhere. And all that proves is that they used what is called a Plot Device in order to beat him.

#2b: That said, what does Orochi's capabilities have to do with Goenitz?

#3: Besides, all this is meaningless. Are you now suggesting that because other methods where not used, that they will not work? How do you POSSIBLY come to that conclusion? I can ritely argue that Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu would work quite handily, especially since Orochi is so full of evil, it's potency would increase exponentially.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
I see... So what your saying is, orochi's only capable of Bestowing powers to people and said people can only amount to terrorism type feats? Where as in akuma, has what, god-like feats? Talk about role reversing...

Uh, I want you to point specifically where anyone said Akuma was godlike please. Anywhere at all...

No?

Thats right. Nobody said that. Now, please stop putting words in people's mouths and get back to debating the actual issue. Orochi has no comparable feats. He has some vaguely undefinable capabilities to resist damage, and yet nothing he's done shows he can either replicate, or withstand what his opponent is bringing. That said, Goenitz is even WEAKER than Orochi is, and thats who is being debated here, and he has One feat that shows some modicum of promise, But that one feat gets quickly overshadowed by 4 in Akuma's favour. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Originally posted by Innominate__1
anyway, not including feats yet, orochi isn't a human, was basically born from earth and got pissed at humanity then waged war and was banished to another dimension.. Apparantley has lived 1800 yrs(maybe more so cause he could've been born a little after the earth was formed) can akuma live that long? Doubtful, can anyone in sf? Don't think so, as there's no concrete evidence...

Not including feats is ridiculous. The rest is completely and utterly irrelevant.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
So my point is that no matter how you look at it akuma's a human (who's reached a tier not yet explored by other humans), this thing (orochi) is a supernatural entity and (no feats involved unless we can call that a durability feat haha!!) has already lived for centuries, was sealed in another dimension through a mirror? don't know if it can be killed defeated sure... By just akuma? Nah... The other 3 we're discussing... Hm.. Maybe, but like i said orochi's tier is pretty much god or semi-god... Don't see them being able to take him..

Your point is that you want to use the supposed 'God' attachment, (and Orochi is not a God, not even close, at best he is considered a demon, and even that has it's hitches) as a means to jury-rig a win for Goenitz despite the fact that Orochi is not Goenitz, and even he has limits.

Akuma was human, yes, apparently not anymore. Akuma is sacrificing more and more of his humanity as time passes. Hah! Again with the God title. Dude, Orochi is not omnipotent, He is not Omnicient, he is not Omnipresent, and he has been defeated by mortals weaker than Akuma.

You act like the Island Bust is the sole thing anyone is relying on... Your mistaken.

Here, I want you to hear these few lines of voice, and then replay it as many times as it takes for it to sink in. Fine advice

Thats right, it doesn't matter what you beleive, only what you can prove. Understand it yet?

okay.orochi may struggle,but he would take it.
however orochi at FULL power would slughter them

Considering that there is no data on any other form of Orochi outside of the 97 incarnation, I think your ascertation lacks evidence, and is therefore dismissed.

same as capcom bosses

Originally posted by samirerre
same as capcom bosses

Bzzzt! wrong! The burden of proof has been met on capcom's side. The endings and intros have proven what they are capable of, multiple times in most cases. You cannot give me a single thing Orochi has done outside of speculatory theoretics.

Like we said, Orochi shouldn't be debated until more info on him becones available. We simply don't know enough.

Agree with you there... We don't know enough.... ^

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero.. didn't mention him or The Presence because those are actual Gods in the most literal sense in fiction.
<< yes i know about them as well as ''the brothers''... don't know where you're going with this even when you first brought it up...??

You took it on a wild tangent by going off on a tirade in trying to prove Orochi's supposed Invulnerability to EVERYTHING bar the treasures, and I pointed out the no-limits fallacy that induces by providing several fictous characters who all have the ability to smash Orochi with trivial ease, because they have done so...
<< still think you're bringing in comic book characters... And i can think of a few (but i don't know who u mean) example of said characters..?

Point being, the very source Orochi claims to draw strength from (AKA Gaia) would e nothing more than a twinkie for beings like Galactus, Eternals, Abstracts or higher. hell, Thanos, when empowered.. simply Unmade half the univers to seduce Lady Death, an Abstract Entity....
<< again with the marvel/dc characters and yes i see what you mean, or at least i think.... you're saying since these being have proved their feats that orochi doesn't compare, i agree, because... orochi's a flippin! VIDEO GAME CHARACTER! (Thread's gonna close cause of u bringing these dudes into it) js

Ok, several problems here...

#1: Orochi is not Divine. He does not meet the criteria of a God, and nor does Gaia, whom he draws strength from. He is at best, a Metahuman Immortal who can still be harmed and potentially even be killed. << you called him a demon did you not? Anyway, ''metahuman'' im going to see if that term applies because it seems that you just keep on bringing more and more labels and techinacilities to depower orochi.. And yes he can be hurt possibly stopped by other means but it has never been stated before and that's cause he waged war on all of humanity (or so his story goes in kof)
#2: Define "Really Strong Guys" please. I know your reffering to Kyo, Iori and Chizuru, but simply playing the A>B>C fallacy will get you nowhere. And all that proves is that they used what is called a Plot Device in order to beat him.
<<i was referring to them and to the guys we are discussing on this thread... And what plot device do you mean?
#2b: hat said, what does Orochi's capabilities have to do with Goenitz? << i don't remember mentioning goentiz at least on THIS Thread...
#3: Besides, all this is meaningless. Are you now suggesting that because other methods where not used, that they will not work? How do you POSSIBLY come to that conclusion? I can ritely argue that Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu would work quite handily, especially since Orochi is so full of evil, it's potency would increase exponentially.
<<i came to that conclusion same way you always need concrete evidence for anything that has power at a higher level than akuma... Basically because it's implied (i know how much you hate it but that's the tone that was given when mentioned how orochi was defeated after he waged war on humanity) you need the 3 treasures to seal him away... It wasn't mentioned you needed that OR some very strong warriors..


Uh, I want you to point specifically where anyone said Akuma was godlike please. Anywhere at all...

No?
Thats right. Nobody said that. Now, please stop putting words in people's mouths and get back to debating the actual issue. Orochi has no comparable feats. He has some vaguely undefinable capabilities to resist damage, and yet nothing he's done shows he can either replicate, or withstand what his opponent is bringing. That said, Goenitz is even WEAKER than Orochi is, and thats who is being debated here, and he has One feat that shows some modicum of promise, But that one feat gets quickly overshadowed by 4 in Akuma's favour. Why is this so difficult to grasp?
<<again don't know where i mentioned goenitz and yes he is weaker than orochi, though it isn't shown so you would say there's no ''proof'' or no ''feats'' so it didn't happen, but if you cannot conclude that from The story then.. idk what's wrong with u.. and do u mean goenitz's feat? Cause that's on another thread don't need to bring that in this one..


Not including feats is ridiculous.. completely and utterly irrelevant.
<< they help somewhat but relying only on feats to conclude any fight is just as bad

Your point is that you want to use the supposed 'God' attachment, (and Orochi is not a God, not even close, at best he is considered a demon, and even that has it's hitches) as a means to jury-rig a win for Goenitz despite the fact that Orochi is not Goenitz, and even he has limits.
<<again with goenitz, And yeah he's got limits jst much higher than the other characters we are discussing
Akuma was human, yes, apparently not anymore. Akuma is sacrificing more of his humanity as time passes. Hah! Again with the God title.. has been defeated by mortals weaker than Akuma.
<<so akuma's sacrificing his humanity in order to get to be more powerful? Guess who was already powerful w/o
resorting to that?
You act like Island Bust is the sole thing anyone is relying on..

I want you to hear these few lines of voice, and then replay it as many times as it takes for it to sink in..Fine advice

Thats right, it doesn't matter what you beleive, only what you can prove. Understand yet? Since im typing i can't ''hear'' the words can i? and Ill take ur ''fine advice'' when ur a bit more open minded

Please dude, please, if your going to quote, do it properly... Now I have to spend an extra 30 or so minutes trying to clear everything up...

Originally posted by Innominate__1
yes i know about them as well as ''the brothers''... don't know where you're going with this even when you first brought it up...??

As i stated previously, I bring them up as examples of characters who could pinky flick orochi and not even notice it, despite your no-limits fallacy claim of being impervious to everything except the treasures. Thes guys are perfect examples becaue Orochi has NEVER been tested that far ever.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
still think you're bringing in comic book characters... And i can think of a few (but i don't know who u mean) example of said characters..?


It's not just comic characters Innom, there are many examples within videogames as well.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
again with the marvel/dc characters and yes i see what you mean, or at least i think.... you're saying since these being have proved their feats that orochi doesn't compare, i agree, because... orochi's a flippin! VIDEO GAME CHARACTER! (Thread's gonna close cause of u bringing these dudes into it) js

Read above, there are many Videgame characters who can do the same, say for example, a sizable portion of Darkstalker characters.

And no, the thread does not close due to examples being used, nice try though.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
you called him a demon did you not? Anyway, ''metahuman'' im going to see if that term applies because it seems that you just keep on bringing more and more labels and techinacilities to depower orochi.. And yes he can be hurt possibly stopped by other means but it has never been stated before and that's cause he waged war on all of humanity (or so his story goes in kof)

no, I said the best possibe descriptor would be "Demon", not God, and I also went on to describe how the descriptor was irrelevant anyway. He is not a divine being, and even if he was, it was never demonstrated.

The term metahuman is a pretty broad powerlevel description tht he fits into the higher end of. But he goes no higher than that due to not having accomplished anything besides jobbing horrendously. He waged war, and he lost. This does not mean he cannot be stopped by anything other than the treasures, and you trying to use that as proof of him having some sort of absolute invulnerability is, of course, absurd. Lack of evidence is not evidence of the opposite.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
i was referring to them and to the guys we are discussing on this thread... And what plot device do you mean?

No, not reffer to, I mean Define what you mean by "Really Strong". The 3 treasures are a plot device against Orochi, it is reffered to in simple terms as an instant "I WIN" button. it is like the Infinity Gauntlet, or The Green Lantern's ring, or Kryptonite, or for you as a videogame buff, The Master Sword and Triforce from legend of Zelda. usually, instawin buttons like these are disallowed for vs debates to make the characters rely on their own skills to win a match and not some plot induced stupidity. this includes disabling the capabilities usually associated with the device, such as Orochi's supposed, and untested invulnerability.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
i came to that conclusion same way you always need concrete evidence for anything that has power at a higher level than akuma... Basically because it's implied (i know how much you hate it but that's the tone that was given when mentioned how orochi was defeated after he waged war on humanity) you need the 3 treasures to seal him away... It wasn't mentioned you needed that OR some very strong warriors..

The difference is, you have no evidence either way. I do. Therefore, asthe only one to supply evidence, my argument beats yours. Implications have no weight in a vs match. The fact is, Orochi did nothing exept job to 3 peeple, twice.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
again don't know where i mentioned goenitz and yes he is weaker than orochi, though it isn't shown so you would say there's no ''proof'' or no ''feats'' so it didn't happen, but if you cannot conclude that from The story then.. idk what's wrong with u.. and do u mean goenitz's feat? Cause that's on another thread don't need to bring that in this one..

Right right right, my bad, I put this in the wrong thread. However, that said, your relying on interprative speculation. people read things differently is one bad thing about your methodology, and another is that there is no factual basis you can bring to the table reguarding such interpretation. Feats simply hold more weight than interpretations of story. You cannot give me an example of Goenitz or Orochi doing anything that could compete, thats your problem, not mine.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
they help somewhat but relying only on feats to conclude any fight is just as bad

True, but they hold a HELL of a lot more weight that speculations and theories.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
again with goenitz, And yeah he's got limits jst much higher than the other characters we are discussing

I'm going to end up repeating myself twice in a row here...

"If this is the case, then you would have no trouble proving it." - Once.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
so akuma's sacrificing his humanity in order to get to be more powerful? Guess who was already powerful w/o
resorting to that?

See?

"If this is the case, then you would have no troube proving it." - Twice

Originally posted by Innominate__1
and Ill take ur ''fine advice'' when ur a bit more open minded

An open mind is one thing, being completely gullible and claiming your speculation trumps my evidence is another thing entirely.

You finally changed that avatar and sig.

Good post. Although I remember on my site it seemed people thought the other way about Orochi at the time. Must just be the ages.

Well, you stick with the same avi & sig too long, it becomes too boring, and I kept my old set for what... 4 years? Lol.

Yes, it's true. Back then, I was a heavy supporter of lore, and simply accepted second hand knowlege more than actual demonstration. Perhaps No-Name rubbed off on me.

Right. I remember no name being by himself on that issue. I simply suggested removing the plot device from him.

I think there's a balance. I hate the feat skewing you see (particularly in the versus forum) where people use the fact that characters have "more feats" as a reason they win. Obviously other media aren't going to have decades of "feats" in the way comics do. Or they're like games where you get an ending every once in a while. Sometimes you have to improvise. By the same token you don't assign some unproven level of power either simply by speculation.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Right. I remember no name being by himself on that issue. I simply suggested removing the plot device from him.

I think there's a balance. I hate the feat skewing you see (particularly in the versus forum) where people use the fact that characters have "more feats" as a reason they win. Obviously other media aren't going to have decades of "feats" in the way comics do. Or they're like games where you get an ending every once in a while. Sometimes you have to improvise. By the same token you don't assign some unproven level of power either simply by speculation.

Oh I seek balance too.

See, my biggest problem in this case is that Innominate is trying to admit evidence solely based on vague extrapolation of lore. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I am saying that there is no possible way to demonstrate it's effectoveness or lack thereof. Suspected capability vs demonstrated capability. If I let that go, we may as well intoduce non-canon elements, and you know what that leads to better than most eh?

That said, I don't mind using lore as a benchmarker as long as it can be proven at the very least within the powerset, and does not rely on plot devices or fallacies.

Innominate has utilised several of both in order to make a case, and I'm simply tearing down those speculations with proof. I've not flamed him, I've not attacked him, and I havn't baited him. Unlike Quan, and perhaps SamZ, I really think this is a case of ignorance more than any arrogance, and that to me makes this go-around easier to deal with.

Oh I wouldn't know. You're the resident pwner around here. I agree as well. Feat skewing is a big problem here. "xxx can do this because I read something somewhere else." It's annoying and kills debates. Or makes them annoying at least. You keep rockin' baby.

I think i got this... Not sure yet...

Akuma still one-shots Orochi until / unless someone come with feats to prove otherwise.

Strength feats? If you wanna base it on that i guess... Like i said before strength alone doesn't win a fight.. Plus orochi doesn't actually fight just uses his powers... Doesn't display his strength just power which is very supernatural in nature... So there's no way to measure or calculate his power accurately...and as far as the kof story, he's the strongest being thus far, and that is why even to the latest instalment they're trying to tap into his power...

And as for DSZ, i wasn't intentionally trying to make a mess of the quotes haha... My apologies.. And for the rest of the stuff... I understand said faits are powerful and imo akuma's probably the strongest character in SF (that is until someone else jumps out with stronger feats), but mostly like i said i use the story and character info to sum up my conclusion of this theoretical fight... And summing it all up is why i stated (or claimed as you put it) that orochi was defeated by the 3 treasures because they were the only ones to be able to seal it away, it would be nice if other info were given but it seems that without the yata mirror you won't be able to defeat it... And in that sense you're right, his durability has never been tested by other means, so it leaves no choice but to go with what's stated... So you can keep relying on feats and ill relying on the story and context of it

Originally posted by Innominate__1
And as for DSZ, i wasn't intentionally trying to make a mess of the quotes haha... My apologies..

Ok.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
And for the rest of the stuff... I understand said faits are powerful and imo akuma's probably the strongest character in SF (that is until someone else jumps out with stronger feats), but mostly like i said i use the story and character info to sum up my conclusion of this theoretical fight...

If that's the case, then your relying on an incolplete picture of the situation. You cannot dismiss feats in favour of portrayal, especially if that prtrayain is simply an interpretation.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
And summing it all up is why i stated (or claimed as you put it) that orochi was defeated by the 3 treasures because they were the only ones to be able to seal it away, it would be nice if other info were given but it seems that without the yata mirror you won't be able to defeat it... And in that sense you're right, his durability has never been tested by other means, so it leaves no choice but to go with what's stated... So you can keep relying on feats and ill relying on the story and context of it

No, because that creates, as I said, a no-limits fallacy.

...

We don't allow fallacies here. it's really that simple.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Strength feats? If you wanna base it on that i guess... Like i said before strength alone doesn't win a fight.. Plus orochi doesn't actually fight just uses his powers... Doesn't display his strength just power which is very supernatural in nature... So there's no way to measure or calculate his power accurately...and as far as the kof story, he's the strongest being thus far, and that is why even to the latest instalment they're trying to tap into his power... Orochi has never shown any sort of ability coming from said ''supernatural forces'' that could help him winning against Akuma. Except storywise Orochi has never crossed paths with a mountain shatterer to say he can survive that. So, we can just assume he wouldn't until / unless proven otherwise.

The problem with Orochi is that he lives on plot devicies ans deus ex, but SNK never really gave us a precise statement of his destructive power, defence, etc.

I assume that is a safe bet to think that Orochi is stronger than Goenitz.

Is stated that "Orochi is invulnerable to humans", but since Oni "is not human" and Gill "ah, ah, ah, ah. He's your god" it doesn't count :P

I'm in serious doubt that oro, ONI, and gill are counted as normal humans. Orochi is going to have to provide proof that he's invulnerable to superhuman powers on the scale of his opponents in this thread.

Woah, it happened here too.. Ok well as you can see on orochi's list of powers/abilites (snk wiki or any other snk website) it states he's capable of regeneration, TK, TP(telepathy), translocate, soul damage (attacking) power, shooting those wierd projectiles from his hands (that negate every other projectile or power ingame), making pillars of energy (similar to goenitz's cyclones), and that harmful light (as in visible light) that engulfs the whole screen.. I know, pretty much these are summed up from game mechanics, but still these abilities are attributed to him thus far, using the context from the story to conclude this is an entity ''metahuman'', something not human, which has alot of other characters tapping into it's power... I don't see why a mountain splitting or rock splitting technic would be needed here... Orochi doesn't fight that way... And im not disputing the fact that it has ''no-limits'' (which are not allowed... ididnt know that, im Sorry.. @DSZ haha..!!) he just simply posses these abilities, where these 3 said characters don't (he posseses them all at once btw)... This isn't a contest of ''who can destroy more things'' it's who'd win... Who's got more abilities? Who's the MAIN villian in the story arc and supernatural? I'm just using common sense here, and as far as the story goes, obviously he isn't invulnerable (if there was a way to seal it without the mirror i'd concede) but stops being a threat when it's sealed in the yata mirror... That's why i bring in the 3 treasures into this argument, cause canonwise, we've never really seen orochi, (what you see in '97 is a possesed and altered version of chris) so it's form of the 8-headed serpent might be it's true form, in any case, so until the story provides more info i don't see you all stopping... But you guys are right about one thing... There's no way to prove how inmeasurable orochi's said abilities are... on a side note: i don't see why it bothers you guys so much....

Akuma has demonstrated a better set of abilities than Orochi, specially in the cutscenes. And Akuma has nothing to do with the KOF series, so pointing out that Orochi is the main villain in ''the story arc'' is meaningless since Akuma belongs to a different series. Besides, no one in the KOF series has shown a level of power not even comparable to Akuma's.

Like I said before, the evidence we have at hand says Akuma would win this match for himself. With SNK releasing more information in the future this scenario may or may not change, only the future will tell. But for now with the evidence we have at hand to work with, the only way to make justice to the characters in this thread is to give this match to the one with better and more concrete evidence to back him up, which happens to be Akuma.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Woah, it happened here too.. Ok well as you can see on orochi's list of powers/abilites (snk wiki or any other snk website) it states he's capable of regeneration, TK, TP(telepathy), translocate, soul damage (attacking) power, shooting those wierd projectiles from his hands (that negate every other projectile or power ingame), making pillars of energy (similar to goenitz's cyclones), and that harmful light (as in visible light) that engulfs the whole screen..

Yes? And? What can those things do to Akuma? You can list all the powers in the universe if you like, it doesn;t mean a thing when they arn't quantified.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
I know, pretty much these are summed up from game mechanics, but still these abilities are attributed to him thus far, using the context from the story to conclude this is an entity ''metahuman'', something not human, which has alot of other characters tapping into it's power...

So.... We give orochi the feats of other characters? is that what your suggesting?

No, thats not the way a debate works.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
I don't see why a mountain splitting or rock splitting technic would be needed here... Orochi doesn't fight that way... And im not disputing the fact that it has ''no-limits'' (which are not allowed... ididnt know that, im Sorry.. @DSZ haha..!!) he just simply posses these abilities, where these 3 said characters don't (he posseses them all at once btw)...

because orochi has never demonstrated the ability to defend against that much force?

Originally posted by Innominate__1
This isn't a contest of ''who can destroy more things'' it's who'd win... Who's got more abilities? Who's the MAIN villian in the story arc and supernatural? I'm just using common sense here, and as far as the story goes, obviously he isn't invulnerable (if there was a way to seal it without the mirror i'd concede) but stops being a threat when it's sealed in the yata mirror...

It's not a contest of "Who has more abilities" but also of how effective those abilities actually are. Case in point, Ryu vs Akuma, all out. Ryu posesses a similar skill and power set to Akuma, but nowhere near Akuma's scale. Akuma would roflestomp him into the ground currently.

No. Orochi's place in the story is of no consequence to his battle capability. At all.

common sense didctates the use of canon capability to resolve a fight, not "Character portrayal" form a story his opponent is not a part of.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
That's why i bring in the 3 treasures into this argument, cause canonwise, we've never really seen orochi, (what you see in '97 is a possesed and altered version of chris) so it's form of the 8-headed serpent might be it's true form, in any case, so until the story provides more info i don't see you all stopping... But you guys are right about one thing... There's no way to prove how inmeasurable orochi's said abilities are... on a side note: i don't see why it bothers you guys so much....

The 3 treasures are a plot device, thus are irrelevant.

Orochi's 8-headed demon form has never been seen, so you cannot quantify that, period.

Ok, let me ask you this: If I came in and said "Akuma wins because he is a secret boss in SSF2T and SFA, thats 2 games more than Orochi!" how would you react?

I personally don't think that Orochi loses just because he lacks feats and quantifiable showings.

He is implied to be very powerful, however, until there are showings towards his level of power, he shouldn't be placed in threads. Unless it's specified that the version of Orochi being used is Orochi exactly as he was in the game.

A character like Pyron is a perfect example of this. Every showing Pyron has, is either him, very small or feats he's able to accomplish simply because he can get very big. He has no feat that actually requires him to put forth effort or use any of his special powers in his true form. Against characters in his known range, a VS would be okay. But against someone like Galactus, where he would need to actually TRY, the thread can't really move passed the starting point. This is because Pyron's never had to TRY to do anything. Orochi's case is even harder because, unlike Pyron, we don't actually know how far away from his full power he actually was.

Hmm... but in Pyron's case at least we have something quantifiable to go with, like the fact he has consumed planets through his life and his true size being 400,000 light years wide already tells you something about how powerful he should be. With this info alone we can already place him above most herald-level characters easily.

Just as an example; if we find out about the existence of a 100 ft tall man it would be easy to deduce the guy is stronger than a normal human even without knowing anything else about him... in virtue of his size alone.

Orochi on the other hand doesn't have anything of the sort to back himself up. I mean... there's nothing in Orochi's backstory that we can look up to deduce how powerful he may be precisely... and what actually matters in this case, there's nothing of concrete that we know about him that would place him above Akuma when it comes to who'd win in a fight.

I think the point still stands, that that aint enough info on Pyron to actually put'im in a thread where he would have to 'work' to win. We don't know enough about'im.

But DS also brings about an example where a lack of feats doesn't matter since story and plot info work just as well, in many cases. Like, how can lil characters like Jedah stand a ghost of a chance against Pyron, a guy who can crush stars at his weakest levels? Well in DS, we know that the souls of evil humans would be hundreds of times more powerful than any star. Thus, Jedah doesn't actually need the feats to survive Pyron when the story implies that he can.

Unfortunately, Orochi aint even got that type of plot information goin for'im.

Well i've agreed with that point before (not knowing enough about orochi to say for sure)... The plot of this story and all that it implies in it's arc is pretty much that orochi is an entity and has some sort of inmeasurable power capable of coming close if not wiping out the entire human race... Never been feats before to show but is obviously somewhat of a threat (at what scale you can be the judge since you always say it's minimal)... The only reason i bring up the 3 sacred treasures is beacause of the mirror used to seal him... If it only took force wouldn't it be done by now? Maybe orochi can be beaten by force, but it still won't make him go away (from what we see in the canon ending of '97) it took a pretty despearate kyo, blood riot iori, to hold him while delivering the final blow, but if it weren't for the mirror, it's strongly implied that, it would only be a matter of time before resurfacing again... So even if these 3 are able to subdue him (according to his nature and prior demonstration of doing so) he'd most likely come back... that can count as a win i suppose but i still see it very obscure...

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Well i've agreed with that point before (not knowing enough about orochi to say for sure)... The plot of this story and all that it implies in it's arc is pretty much that orochi is an entity and has some sort of inmeasurable power capable of coming close if not wiping out the entire human race... Never been feats before to show but is obviously somewhat of a threat (at what scale you can be the judge since you always say it's minimal)... That's all hyperbole BS unless there's some in-story record of him doing anything as big or at least comparable to wiping out all of humanity.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
The only reason i bring up the 3 sacred treasures is beacause of the mirror used to seal him... If it only took force wouldn't it be done by now? Depends on what level of force. There's no indication that the Orochi has ever had to deal with anything on the levels of what Akuma can dish out.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
Maybe orochi can be beaten by force, but it still won't make him go away (from what we see in the canon ending of '97) it took a pretty despearate kyo, blood riot iori, to hold him while delivering the final blow, but if it weren't for the mirror, it's strongly implied that, it would only be a matter of time before resurfacing again... So even if these 3 are able to subdue him (according to his nature and prior demonstration of doing so) he'd most likely come back... that can count as a win i suppose but i still see it very obscure... You'd still have to prove Orochi can return after having his body completely annihilated, because that's pretty much what Akuma's attacks will do to him.

@SG like i've been saying for awhile now.. since the plot of the entire story arc is to stop this being, then how can it not be logical that it is powerful? and according the story, all he needed to destroy the earth, was kyo's gf's ancestor (that was long) but she was saved miraculously, hence the earth not being destroyed in the process... it was mentioned in the canon story before you fight the orochi team in '97.. and all the other context supports this claim... how is it illogical? and as for proving that orochi can return from being "annihialated" by akuma... you'd have to prove akuma can even do that... you can see that in the game orochi's got renerative and telepathic capabailities, ("i can read every/any humans thoughts" as he puts it) plus even chizuru admits they cannot kill him.. even in the 3 sacred treasure ending... she says "all we could do was contain him"...

This whole thing about planetary destruction is only limited to statements and hearsay with no concrete showings aside to corroborate it, and no matter how logical it may seem, in these cross-fictional debates we use to just throw away stuff like that and stick only with the proven side of the story. As powerful as the Orochi may be, there's just no evidence so far that he could be an immediate threat to all of humanity in a realistic way.

And I'm aware of his regenerative abilities, but I'm yet to see him regenerating from having his body demolished into dust, and in case his durability is anything bellow multi-mountain / island level Akuma would be more than capable of doing that to him.

Also Kyo, Iori and Chizuru aka ''the treasures'' are only building busters at best so they aren't a good standard for comparision here since Akuma has far more destructive power behind a single punch than anything those three could produce working together.

So again, it's you that have to prove Orochi can survive being mauled by Akuma.

This whole ''would have'' needs a side showing to back it up otherwise it's not viable as argument.

A in-universe match is the most flawed possible example when comparing characters that AREN'T PART OF A SAME STORY in a cross-fictional debate in a vs. forum. The simple fact the characters in this thread aren't part of the same series alone already makes this ''story context'' argument flawed and thus inapplicable. The most proper and fair way of comparing characters that AREN'T PART OF THE SAME STORY in versus threads is with the comparision of feats.

The Orochi will not come back if his current host gets demolished into chopped meat and he can't take on another host without outside help.

Akuma was punching that hard when he fought against Gouken trading blows with him as evidenced when he missed a punch hiting the external side of a volcanic wall, and that's just how hard he hits when he's not holding back his power.

Orochi being able to see what Akuma's going to do with him won't change a thing. That's like a guy crossing paths with a hungry lion in the mid of the African savana, the dude won't need to be able to read the beast's mind to know it's gonna immobilise him with its claws and bite his neck, but there's just nothing he could do to avoid this fate in front of something so much more powerful than him.

Destructive power counts a lot in a fight, and Akuma has more of it behind his fists than those three with all of their efforts combined. Also Akuma is several times stronger than Iori who was immobilising the Orochi and he hits at least a couple thousand times harder than Kyo who was able to finish the battle with a punch. Akuma has the balls to do all the job by himself without much struggle.

And being turned into a ''red fine mist'' is a reasonable assumption of what would happen to the human body if it gets hit with force greater than what the average nuclear weapon produces. And it shouldn't be much different with the Orochi.

Also I never said Akuma is as fast as lightning.

Heeyyy... I almost forgot about this thread... Anyway, again with the animal comparisons? And strange assumptions to boot... And what don't you get about story context? because of the context we can pretty much conclude orochi's a very powerful being that was only sealed away into another dimension... Never destroyed, though you have a point if all the hakkesu are not around he might just be sealed away forever, still though the idea that akuma can just ''destroy'' orochi effortlessly, is somewhat of a stretch... Mostly because orochi's abilities enable him to be extremely resiliant in dying, or staying dead... Because if you remember it took 3 of the strongest fighters to seal him, and even in the most recent installment his power's being sought after still...

Like I said there's no evidence the Orochi could survive anything comparable to an island breaking punch, and the fact he has been finished off by three building busters surely doesn't help him here.

Where/when did these 3 bust buildings? Anyway, in the story orochi's portrayed as an entity/demon/devine being, so even if akuma, or the others listed here, were to destroy his ''body'' it wouldn't destroy him, plus, there's still the matter of orochi's abilities (teleportion and regeneration).. Not to mention his own attacking moves as well and pretty much unlimited stamina... I say he's got a great chance at taking this

I don't recall any of those three busting any buildings though they should be powerful enough to so based on their set of abilities, well at very least for Kyo this may hold true.

Orochi has yet to be seen regenerating after having his head chopped off and Akuma is more than capable of doing that to him if not worst. And having his body destroyed will incapacitate him as a fighter since otherwise, if were able to do anything in his true form, he wouldn't even need a human host. Also the Shun Goku Satsu could be the perfect weapon to finish him off once and for all granted it's an attack that affects the soul directly.

The Orochi lack the showings to even say he's a match for normal Akuma let alone Oni who laughed off a volcanic eruption point blank range.

Isn't oni non-canon yet? He's what akuma ''would be'' once he reaches another level of power? Which is of a supernatural nature... And you still have to prove akuma can chop off this dude's head anyway... And as i've said, sure that would destroy the host orochi's in but it wouldn't eliminate him... Plus, seeing as he transformed chirs's lil scrawny body into a tall levitating albino, i'd say it's a sound assumption that his possessing of his host grants his body a higher level of power.. in his victory pose once he scratches his chest, he regenerates back almost instantly, which is another example of him powering up the host his in... So an immortal entity whose the source of power of about 10 or so strong fighters, turning them into very deadly ones and sustain them while transformed without even being present, has a great chance of dodging or maybe even countering said attack.. Wouldn't u say?

Check the OP again, the version of Akuma being used here is Oni so it doesn't really matter if he's only a ''what if'' character.

Akuma chopeed an island apart and was able to split Ayers Rock in half... take a guess, it's the Orochi that needs a durability showing to prove he can take one of those without having his head ripped off, not to say worst.

Orochi can't do anything without a host, therefore he'd be out of the game in case it gets destroyed. This already counts as a loss.

Regenerating from a scratched chest doesn't prove he can grow a new head, and much less that he can reconstruct his body after having it reduced to pieces ala Majin Buu.

And no I wouldn't say he can counter an attack from Akuma, not after seeing how Iori jumped on him and grabbed his neck while Kyo punched him dead in the ground. The guy has poor showings for someone with only one appearance and his demise was pathetic, that's the reason why he doesn't even deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Actually... Orochi is a divine being. A metahuman is something like Gill. Although Gill can resurrect, he can still be killed. Try tearing his body apart. See if he can still resurrect.

Orochi on the other hand, being a single pure God entity, doesn't have any humanly vulnerabilities in him(soul, mortality, mind control, poison, illusion, etc.).

The whole "can only be defeated by sealing and can only be sealed by the 3 sacred treasures" is one of Orochi characteristics that make him who he is. Saying that it is irrelevant is nonsense. SInce it is a canon characteristic of Orochi, it is still remains his strong side, and will always be true. No matter how people say it's just "plot device" or something like that, in the end, Orochi will still be only be stopped by 3 sacred treasures.

On similar thoughts, some characters with no feats appeared to be powerful in end. Take Ash. He has not feats for 2003. People say he's just weak and can't compare to the other protagonist. Turns out, he is quite powerful to be able to defeat Orochi Iori.

Say people, has Akuma ever killed any of his major opponents in a single punch? You claim that was so powerful yet Gen is not dead by the end of his fight with Akuma. So is Gouken. That "Island Busting Punch" Akuma did was never represented in a fight. The problem is, Akuma's power level is his sheer body strength alone, with only little help from his projectiles. A punch like that, failing to kill humans like Gen, Gouken, or even Oro can't do much against a omnipotent divine entity like Orochi. There's always been a sort of "mighty" humans to this kind of fights, like how Deva Path from Naruto survives being thrown like a rag towards a mountain and landslided by it(actually, just an example), or Kyo hitting a car and the car was the one that was damaged instead and Kyo scrubbing it off, or Ryu being run over like a doll by Bison and still alive or people jumping too high for a human to do or Terry Bogards bomb-like power geyser explosive being survive by several villians. I have a lot more. KOF characters has a lot of durability to offer, and Orochi, being the most powerful one, has unimaginable. That is called smart deduction. A story input tells better that actual feats like how Ash withstand Orochi Iori despite not having feat at all(and when I said feat, I was referring to something like mountain busting

punches and other cliches that describe the likes of Akuma) and also how people deduce Oro being very powerful despite only being told to "have stalemated Akuma" and not having feats at all.

At any rate, Orochi is indestructible(as Chizuru said), immortal, and omnipotent(much tells a lot then). So, yeah, Orochi can defeat them.

Lack of feats with Orochi destroys the chance of this being a good match.

Lack of actual showings for Orochi makes this impossible to win against even one of the foes he's pitted against.

In cross-fictional debates concrete evidence in favor of one character will always override all the hype for the other character in question.

Being called a divine entity doesn't mean anything without a showing as indication of on what level said entity does operate.

The Orochi is not indestructible and he hasn't shown the ability to comeback or regenerate after having his body teared apart either. Feats are required to say otherwise, period.

Orochi in his one appearance has been bested by people incapable of mustering even a small fraction of the destructive force Akuma has shown to have. And I'm sure that unlike Akuma he wasn't holdind back or testing his opponents at any moment.

And again the evidence at hand so far says even normal Akuma solos this.

Orochi was stated to be "incomplete" in his one appearance. How much that limited his power is unknown.

Orochi's level of divinity has already been established. He is the god of nature, of earth. He serves to control the power of the earth and sees human as a threat to earth.

Well, just to say, Orochi's power is earth itself, so a rock or a lava or anything from earth will do nothing to him.

Also, people seem to misunderstand what happened to KOF 97. That time, Orochi was severely premature. Orochi then starts fighting them off . Everything, everywhere was destroyed. After a very decisive fight, Kyo, Iori and Chizuru was almost all out of power and Orochi was still standing unscathed, much to their surprised. They all starting to lose hope. That was when Orochi suddenly mocked them of their useless effort as Iori goes ROTB. It was then that instead of attacking the 2, Iori, suddenly grab Orochi. Orochi, unable to move, allowed Kyo and Chizuru to seal him. They all lost consciousness afterwards with Kyo missing in the aftermath.

What does this have to prove? First of all, Orochi wasn't beaten on all bruises and wounded like how people try to view a normal fight. By the end of the battle, Orochi remains scathed and the 3 almost dying in the fight. That proves a lot for a prematurely appearing God. Second, Orochi wasn't beaten by a simple attack. If you're fully aware of what happened in the past, the sealing of Orochi happen in a ceremonial fashion, the rest of yasakani clan use their power to hold orochi in place, while the kusanagi clan applied their powers to it and yata using their power to seal him off, which all cost the 3 clans to almost meet their demise.
The KOF 97 battle re-enacted the ritual. ROTB Iori used the power to hold Orochi in place, Kyo applied his power to it(in a form of a devastating flaming punch) and Chizuru sealed Orochi off. The point is that, unlike what people think it is, Orochi WAS NOT defeated in an "all-brawl" fashion. In the end of the very devastating fight, it was only the 3 scared treasures that can defeat an "unscathed" Orochi. Proving how he took on all those fighters on a very long fight while still far from his true power, yet still stand up and on top of that, unscratched, is a large proof of his power.
The use of Chris is because he is still premature. However, despite that fighting off all those fighters, he was unscratched, while keeping in mind how strong they are. I don't see how Akuma will deal a blow to even scratch Orochi.

Akuma fight's in a brawl fashion(destroy this, destroy that), which in any case isn't what it takes to defeat a god like Orochi. On the other hand, Orochi can just take all their souls and destroy them all together. Then it'll be over...

His level of ''divinity'' will only be established on the day he accomplishes the required feats to back up anything said about him, if it ever happens of course. Otherwise god of nature or no he'd still get crushed by a big enough rock or burned to ashes by a lava bath.

Also saying Orochi can rip anyone's soul and destroy them will require feats to back it up, and I'm afraid he has none of that kind outside game mechanics.

To sum it up the Orochi has never had to deal with anyone even remotely close to Akuma's level of power. The whole cast of 97' combined still has nothing that can compare to an island sinking punch or the move Akuma used to split Ayers Rock in half, and granted the Orochi has never endured anything on those levels or even comparable we can't help but assume it will destroy him.

By the way, no good reason to bump an old thread like this.

The only way Orochi was defeated was by using 3 plot devices.
Without those, it is impossible for a human or a demi-god to win.

The only fighter who stands a chance is Gill.
His feat of splitting the ocean into two without any physical intervention is greater than Akuma's city busting punch.

You're kidding right? You are saying what the story tells about Orochi is nothing to count. All you want is a feat. Nothing more, nothing less. You fail to justify what the actual story tells about him. That's the only reason why this thread keeps on going. Having a power to control everything earth can offer, how weak do you think that is? And sorry if you still don't get it, i haven't got an answer as to why Gen or Oro or Gouken is still alive despite you saying Akuma's punch can destroy a God like Orochi, whilst Orochi was never defeated in an all-brawl fashion which Akuma use to work out with.

And yeah, He can rip soul and that's a common idea considering what he does in-game and you saying that doesn't count is seemingly stupid. I mean, it IS what he does in where he come from, the game! The game, I tell yah!

And the whole cast of KOF combine? I don't know why you think KOF cast is a bunch of midget in terms of destructive level.

Originally posted by coballes19
You're kidding right? You are saying what the story tells about Orochi is nothing to count. All you want is a feat. Nothing more, nothing less. You fail to justify what the actual story tells about him. That's the only reason why this thread keeps on going. Having a power to control everything earth can offer, how weak do you think that is? Feats are required in versus forums, they're the only thing that makes these threads even possible to beggin with. And I could ask you for proof about the Orochi being able to control everything on Earth, but not going to waste my time, the guy has just no feats holding up that claim.

Originally posted by coballes19
And sorry if you still don't get it, i haven't got an answer as to why Gen or Oro or Gouken is still aliveAmong these characters you listed the only one evidenced to have fought a blood-lusted Akuma is Gouken who posseses pratically the same powers as Akuma himself and possibly on a comparable scale, so it's no surprise Gouken could keep up with him.

Originally posted by coballes19
despite you saying Akuma's punch can destroy a God like Orochi, whilst Orochi was never defeated in an all-brawl fashion which Akuma use to work out with.Akuma with a single punch was able to destroy a vulcanic island and split a 5 kilometers wide mountain in half, either of these objects are more durable than Orochi's body.

Originally posted by coballes19
And yeah, He can rip soul and that's a common idea considering what he does in-game and you saying that doesn't count is seemingly stupid. I mean, it IS what he does in where he come from, the game! The game, I tell yah!Said in-game move needs a canon showing for it to be quantified otherwise there's no way to know how much or what sort of damage it causes. Not to say the move in question requires the Orochi being close to his opponent, which would result in Akuma chopping his head off and then tearing him to pieces.

Originally posted by coballes19
And the whole cast of KOF combine? I don't know why you think KOF cast is a bunch of midget in terms of destructive level.Most of the KOF cast consists of characters ranging from peak human to low or mid meta-human levels, with the strongest fighters in the cast being building busters at most. It would take a few dozen thousands of characters on par with the top warriors of the KOF cast to match Akuma's destructive output.

1. Orochi's divinity is never officially stated, thus never proven. This is why we don't take Gill's claims of God hood and savior as fact, until proven to be true.

2. A character's durability needs to be proven. Just because they have modest control over an element doesn't mean they can't be hurt by it.

3. Besides Iori goin nutz and chokin Orochi out, none of the specifics stated in this thread, by others, has ever been said (officially) to be true. There has never been any specifics on what occurred durin the fight with Orochi. Only that he fought and was sealed, that's it.

4. Orochi has to prove he's durable enough to withstand a punch from even normal Akuma. As it stands, a punch from Akuma would turn Orochi into puddy and he would die. Not to say that that's fact, only that Orochi lacks the showings to be put in fights with well established characters in the 1st place.

Orochi shouldn't be in versus threads, at all. Characters like Ash have far better showings and have accomplished much more in their time and that's a shame. It's also just a testament to how lil of Orochi is actually known and how much effort was actually put into his character.

Yes, it is true we know little about Orochi's background.

We do know, though, that Orochi is a genderless being that manifested from the Earth.

As far as feats:
He can harness the power of the Sun at will to harm his opponents.
He can instantly recharge his power.
And he instantly heals himself after ripping his chest to shreds.

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Actually, Orochi does. In KOF 97 manga, Orochi was use very element to cover Yuki in a sphere of energy. The end result, many giant whirlwinds around and dozens of mountains destroyed. It's just to show Orochi controls earth, even light and dark.

Akuma's fights only categorizes 2 things: him being serious or not. Him being serious means he'll kill his opponent and him toying around the enemy if his not. Akuma was suppose to kill Gen, seeing him a worthy opponent, until he figured out that he is sick. That's how serious Akuma is. And yet, Gen survived Akuma's punches. Gen, a human, and a sick old man at that. Gouken, on the other hand, had his durability and destructive power never established. We can't say he is comparable to Akuma or not. His latest fight with Akuma was not shown. If you suggest that Gouken is at same power level as Akuma with only that, then you're deducing something despite the lack of feats. Anyway, the point is that Gouken survived Akuma's punches.

The manga adaptation of KOF is non-canon. Bringing it up would be like giving Akuma his meteor feat from Capcom Fighting Jam, which is non-canon as well.

Gouken surviving Akuma's punches either means his body is more durable than an entire island or Akuma was just holding back his power against him. In any case it doesn't change the fact Akuma could simply punch the Orochi with island destroying force and thus killing him.

Anyway, No End's post pretty much sealed off the argumentation for this thread so I'm done here.

The only non-canon part of the manga adaptation is who fights who and why throughout the tournament. The character's powers were not touched from the original story context. Meaning they still possess what they should.
Capcom fighting game, on the other hand, is a pure cross over series, in which Capcom has to change the level of some characters to fit with each other and on over all, nothing in Capcom fighting Jam is leaning towards SF story context, unlike KOF 97 Manga which actually derives it's events to the actual game, KOF 97, in which authors only added some events that made the manga twist over the original storyline. The facts are still present, Yuki was kidnapped, Orochi appeared, Kyo, Iori and Chizuru fought them and they all have the power they possess based on what the story tells.

Akuma is surely not holding back in the fight, specially considering Ryu is the prize, the very person he's interested in. On Gen's situation on the other hand, is as to why a sick old man is seemingly alive after receiving punches from Akuma.

Oh and about the island, who knows what structure that island has. Heck! Who knows. The island must have been very weak due to Akuma very long stay in there, training for a long time, and the Island having hollow parts.

And yeah, I guess this argumentation is better off sealed...