Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This is an open ended challenge to anyone who wants to argue movie versions only with no references allowed from the eu or from the potter books.

I'd like to face off against someone repping Darth Sidious aka Palpatine aka Emperor but if you'd rather represent Yoda, Windu, Anakin(Darth Vader), Odin Wan, Darth Maul, Cont Dooku, etc. I'd definitely accept and be fine with that.


Once someone accepts please close this down and we can decide on the time limit, judges/voting system, and all other rules of our one on one movie debate.

Can you explain to me exactly what a Battlezone is? Ive seen them around the board, but never participated.

It's two posters each agreeing to a time limit, set of debating guidelines, and judges or whatever method they deem appropriate for a winner. No one else posts until the closing arguments are given. Then anyone outside the judges or we could even do this popular vote though I'd have objections because of socks voting to determine the winner. Each side provides evidence of why their character or whatever wins or prevails and the goal is to convince the majority of the judges.

We each select one character to represent and debate until the timelimit is up and then let the judges decide and others weigh in on it. It's fun.

Here's a link to a battlezone I did with the rules and guidelines of desaad and myself debating.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473261&pagenumber=1

Battlezone Guidelines

Welcome to the Revised KMC Battlezone, where some of the best and brightest of the Vs Forum come to prove their dominance over the opposition. Battlezone Matches are formal debates and are intended for members who're interested in solo debates with a bit more structure than is normally found in the threads of the Vs Forum.


The rules that govern the Battlezone are fairly simple and are as follows...

*Please note, the following are simply the "Default" Rules for Battlezone Matches to provide some initial structure that sets Battlezone matches apart from the Vs Forum. The stipulations and rules of individual matches are subject to change at the participants discretion. However, I STRONGLY suggest that any changes to the rules are noted and agreed upon by both parties before the match begins because trying to change the rules mid match shows bad form and is a BAD idea.

1. DO NOT POST IN SOMEONE ELSES MATCH. Debates are between the people actually involved with the match in question, so don’t chime in with your opinion or random spam. "Do unto others..." and all that junk.

2. The participants must fight “in character”. For the most part what constitutes “in character” will be determined by the judges, but as a good rule of thumb if they’ve never done it in combat then it’s probably not in character for them to do so.

3. The characters AVERAGE showing is what matters, no the high or low end. Both high and low end feats are likely to come up over the course of the debate, and it’s for the judges to decide which is the better depiction of the character.

4. The characters go into Battlezone fights "Battle Ready". This means that they begin the fight just as they normally would in a comic. They have standard equipment, no unusual power ups or empowerment's, and any powers that are consistently used in combat are assumed to be in effect at the start of the match. That means that if the match features the someone like Invisible Woman they'll begin the match with their Force Field raised, if it features someone like Superman they'll begin the match already in flight mode. Just picture the panel BEFORE the big fight where the characters are posed and squaring off .

5. Matches last exactly one week, starting at the time of the first argument is made(as opposed to the opening post).


Setting up a match.

I figured I’d go ahead and spell this out to avoid a bunch of unnecessary PM’s asking how to do it, so pay attention because setting up a match is a fairly simple process….

Step 1. Poster A challenges Poster B to a match. This can be through direct challenge on Poster B’s team thread, PM, a post in the Battlezone discussion thread, or even an open call on the Off Topic thread for all I care.

Step 2. If Poster B accepts, the two decide on the specific type of match they want and any match conditions they both feel are appropriate(I.E. the battle location, no speedblitze, prep time, no Godblast, etc.)

Step 3. After the conditions are decided, 3 judges for the match are agreed upon and asked to judge the match.

Step 4. Someone(be it one of the judges or one of the participants) post the opening for the match thread(listing any and all match conditions), at which point the match can begin.

Step 5. After one week the judges vote on the match in question, deciding on a winner.


Potential Battlezone match types-

*Some of these were just copied from the ICT Faq at herochat and some were modified.

Flat-Footed- Characters are normally assumed to be "Battle Ready" when the match begins,.adding this stipulation puts both characters on the ground with defenses down.

Slugfest- The characters take turns trading punches until one goes down, relying ONLY on strength and durability.

H2H- Hand to Hand fighting only. This is a fight where opponents pit their physical attributes(strength, speed, ect.) and martial skill against one another without weapons or exotic powers like energy attacks, flight, or transmutation. Move-reading, enhanced senses, and mind-reading(provided the character uses it primarily for physical fights and not communication) are allowed, as are "amping" abilities. This is any form of hand-to-hand combat, not just Asian martial arts. Dodging and giving ground for tactical regrouping is allowed.

Equal Bodies- The two opponents are in physically equal bodies. If the fighters are of opposite genders, then they are placed in exactly equal bodies of their own gender. They are equal in every physical stat, with no special powers(energy blasts, etc.) to speak of.

Slobberknocker- Known as "CBR Style" to some, a slobberknocker is an all out fight to the finish between two or more combatants. For whatever reason, the characters are enraged enough that they want their opponents to die horribly at their hands(even if it's extremely out of character), and will use any available means at their disposal to do it. They don't hold back or screw around at all, they go for the quickest win possible.

Judges Wanted- A match were the winner is determined by the forum at large rather than a selected panel of judges. Anyone who's been a member for 6 months and has at least 200 posts can vote


And with all of that being said, I wish everyone good luck and I hope you all have a good time.

Thank you Darthgoober.

These can all be amended by the two participants in the negotiation phase but were the original/general guidelines for the comic vs. battlezone.

I'll be happy to judge. I'm not enough of a Potter/Warsie fan to compete though.

Someone has finally accepted and this will take place next week. Unsure of whether my opponent will be repping Yoda or Darth Sidious from the movies at this point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Someone has finally accepted and this will take place next week. Unsure of whether my opponent will be repping Yoda or Darth Sidious from the movies at this point.

Cool, nice to see some progress on this forum.

I haven't given too much thought to this fight, but I would pick Sidious over Yoda simply because he has access to more offensive powers, i.e Lightning and choke.

Really looking forward to this

Who's the challenger?

Originally posted by Placidity
Cool, nice to see some progress on this forum.

I haven't given too much thought to this fight, but I would pick Sidious over Yoda simply because he has access to more offensive powers, i.e Lightning and choke.

Really looking forward to this I hope he picks Palpatine/Sidious as well due to being evil and more comparable to Voldemort anyways.Originally posted by the ninjak
Who's the challenger? Korto Vos. A poster who disappeared apparently like 4 years ago to finally return.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=85120

Is EU allowed?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Is EU allowed? No, movies only.

A suggestion: Establish the rules of the force.

I had an interesting conversation about combat regarding an elite vs. a human Jedi knight. One critical point in our debate was the influence of midichlorians (or the force) over my respective Sangheili warrior. It was a crucial aspect because it determined whether or not the Jedi could influence my Sangheili in anyway. I argued that, like the yuzon vong, my Sangheili was extra galactic and was not anatomically contaminated or conditioned by midichlorians. He agreed and the Jedi was only allowed to use force abilities on himself or (selective) objects around him.

It doesn't do much towards a fight if you can argue that the Jedi could rip the earth from under my Elite and squash him like a pancake

Like I said, it's just a suggestion.

Originally posted by the ninjak
I'll be happy to judge. I'm not enough of a Potter/Warsie fan to compete though.

Also, I'd be happy to judge. I am a huge fan of Voldemort and would love to see how any force wielder responds to such magical notoriety!

I propose that Quan and I start posting from Tuesday, till the end date.

And yes, arguing for Star Wars with movie-only evidence will be slightly challenging, but it'll be fun I think, whatever the outcome.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I propose that Quan and I start posting from Tuesday, till the end date.

And yes, arguing for Star Wars with movie-only evidence will be slightly challenging, but it'll be fun I think, whatever the outcome.

Just remember, if you chose Palpatine, he did take out Jedi Masters Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto all under 30 seconds. That alone should speak to the prowess of his abilities...

Activate order 666.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I propose that Quan and I start posting from Tuesday, till the end date.

And yes, arguing for Star Wars with movie-only evidence will be slightly challenging, but it'll be fun I think, whatever the outcome.

Cool have a blast.

Originally posted by King of Blades
Just remember, if you chose Palpatine, he did take out Jedi Masters Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto all under 30 seconds. That alone should speak to the prowess of his abilities... More like 10 seconds.

It's ON like Donkey Kong! To the first of many battles ! =D

Korto has chosen Yoda instead of Palpatine. The debate begins tomorrow and ends when we both agree it's over.

Originally posted by King of Blades
Just remember, if you chose Palpatine, he did take out Jedi Masters Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto all under 30 seconds. That alone should speak to the prowess of his abilities...

If this debate included EU, this would have been more of a killer point.

Anyway, is this the thread we are debating in? Or will there be a new thread?

Originally posted by King of Blades
Just remember, if you chose Palpatine, he did take out Jedi Masters Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto all under 30 seconds. That alone should speak to the prowess of his abilities...

And let us not forget that Yoda equalled Palpatine in lightsaber prowess, and if we bring in the script, disarmed him between scenes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And let us not forget that Yoda equalled Palpatine in lightsaber prowess, and if we bring in the script, disarmed him between scenes.

I always felt just going by the films that Yoda was better than Sidious in a pure saber fight, but I would never hear the end of it when I discussed it with the SW fanatics.

You will hear a lot of divergent opinions.

Anyway, may the Force be with me

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Anyway, is this the thread we are debating in? Or will there be a new thread? You can create a new thread and in your initial post include the link at the end of my post here. This thread here can be the thread where people discuss their opinions. Hopefully most will be respectful and wait until we agree it's over.


In your initial post of the thread include this link with opinions to be weighed in to this thread at the end of our match with the link.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=553185&pagenumber=1

Ok I just read Korto Vos' opening arguments in the other thread, and I am slightly convinced. Many of the points are expected, but some new points as well. I imagine you might have some saved some up your sleeve for later.

Anyway, I was thinking, what about Yoda throwing his saber at Voldemort (as Yoda does against a Clone Trooper while attempting to get into the Temple after Order 66), what would he do?

Should I even be asking this in here? Hope I'm not seen as giving 'pointers' to one side or anything (which I'm not really), although I have no doubt Vos already considered that.

Vos' argument is pretty well laid out. He focuses on point by point instead of doing a complete "data dump", he correctly notes the standard battle style of each and contrasts them. I feel his argument that Yoda could block spells lacks substance, but ultimately the others more than outweigh its importance. Yoda's simply too maneuverable and melee-savvy compared to a wizard, even one of Voldemort's stature, and his TK ability could alleviate him being pinned down or even targeted with spells. It doesn't take a genius to see that after the first or second spell, the wand is a tool to be removed.

Just read the opponents first reply.

While I thought his opening presentation for Voldemort was good, I didn't quite like how he downplayed Yoda, it was a little too excessive especially using his "losses" against Dooku and Palpatine as some sort of proof.

Against Dooku, he was rapidly gaining on him. I could be wrong but I remember the novels saying Dooku was fighting for his life against Yoda's barrage of saber blows. He only managed to escape because Yoda chose to save Obi Wan/Anakin. I believe this point was used to show that Yoda was unable to best an inferior opponent despite the grave consequences of not doing so. While this statement is true, it proves nothing and is irrelevant to the battle at hand. Yoda will not be distracted by anything against Voldemort and the 'low showing' takes nothing away from his skills and power.

About Yoda not seizing the opportunity to down Dooku while he took his time to drop structures onto Obi Wan/Anakin, I don't really count that against Yoda as I see it more of a plot-related/'bad writing' reason.

About the instances of precognition failure on Yoda's part, I have always thought it was due to the dominance of the Dark Side and how it has clouded the vision of the Light Side.

Also related is how Anakin beat Dooku, I believed Palpatine was influencing the fight somehow. Of course this is just my opinion.

About Yoda losing his saber against force storm. First of all, he was taken by surprise. He also held the saber with one hand. But the most important point is that the force storm attack has more PHYSICAL force than most spells do.

About Voldemort not losing his wand due to TK because it has never happened in the films, I find this rather a weak defense, or no defense really. Voldermort has never been against anyone close to Yoda's level of TK, so its a moot point.


Without sounding biased, I do believe Voldermort's arsenal is superior overall, but whether or not he can put down Master Yoda quickly enough, and at the same time evade harm, I am still considering.

Originally posted by Placidity
Just read the opponents first reply.

While I thought his opening presentation for Voldemort was good, I didn't quite like how he downplayed Yoda, it was a little too excessive especially using his "losses" against Dooku and Palpatine as some sort of proof.

Against Dooku, he was rapidly gaining on him. I could be wrong but I remember the novels saying Dooku was fighting for his life against Yoda's barrage of saber blows. He only managed to escape because Yoda chose to save Obi Wan/Anakin. I believe this point was used to show that Yoda was unable to best an inferior opponent despite the grave consequences of not doing so. While this statement is true, it proves nothing and is irrelevant to the battle at hand. Yoda will not be distracted by anything against Voldemort and the 'low showing' takes nothing away from his skills and power.

Remember, Dooku is considered among the best duelists of his era, and one of the most powerful of Jedi as well. Simply because he didn't destroy Dooku in seconds doesn't mean he was unable to defeat him or lacked the power. Yoda regularly outfights sentients twice or more of his height, with more leverage as well. He consistently breaks saber locks using what appears to be Force-aided strength, and he is incredibly mobile despite advanced age and arthritis.

Considering Dooku toys with and defeats Obi-Wan and Anakin within minutes, and yet is forced back by Yoda speaks for the latter's skill in combat.



Arguing PIS is indeed irrelevant. This is like saying Voldemort should have just hired a muggle sharpshooter to plug Potter in the back as he leaves his protected relatives' house.



Yoda being shocked by Sidious initially is dramatic effect at the sake of good storytelling. Yoda has repeatedly demonstrated metahuman reflexes and the ability to react in accordance with famed Jedi precognition. It's his lowest showing with regards to dodging, but to be fair he's standing defiantly and leaning on his stick, not braced for combat with his saber out as the thread creator assumes is the case.



The original script hints that Dooku is toying with Anakin and not going all out, and that Anakin genuinely surprises and overcomes him. This doesn't mean Anakin has more technical prowess and experience than Dooku; he just rolled a natural 20.



Mace Windu, who was leaning forward on flat ground and had both hands on his saber, was struggling. Yoda had almost no traction, his grip was poor because he was only using one hand, and yet he was not thrown back nearly as bad until the storm exploded.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall TK being the chief method of bodily harm in the HP universe. Also, considering Yoda can immediately TK Voldemort across the room, this is moot. Quanchi's argument has not mentioned or shown that wizardly TK is able to block or negate Force TK, whereas Jedi and Sith do have ways to block or stall each others' attacks.



Voldemort's spells are lethal, but not so lethal that he's unbeatable. Wizards have human agility and dexterity. Yoda is beyond human. Couple this with unblockable TK and precognition, and it seems likely that Voldemort would expend much of his abilities just to keep Yoda at bay.

Whose judging this?

Sooner or later this is gonna boil down to the need for one.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Whose judging this?

Sooner or later this is gonna boil down to the need for one. Really no one and at the same time anyone who garners the time and an opinion. To me the debate is all that matters so I didn't really actively pursue judges. One thing I will say though those who post comments it alters our debate because I as I am sure Vos as well will read it before our debate is finished.

Originally posted by quanchi112
One thing I will say though those who post comments it alters our debate because I as I am sure Vos as well will read it before our debate is finished.

Yea I was a little concerned about this. Is the tradition that we don't comment in the way we have till it is over?

It's better to save opinions till the debate is more drawn out, or close to conclusion.

And I don't want anybody making new arguments for the characters. Only debate the points Quanchi and I make.

Originally posted by Placidity
Yea I was a little concerned about this. Is the tradition that we don't comment in the way we have till it is over? It's still in the end up to you but I will address the naysayers/their points in my debate with vos after he responds and it resumes.

I think Quan makes a valid point about Yoda's inability to finish an opponent. I don't look at it so much as Quan downplaying Yoda's abilities, but more as pointing out the fact that he does not have that killer instinct. I mean after losing to Palpatine, Yoda thought it would be a good plan to hide on a remote planet and hope Palpatine did not find him. Both Dooku and Palpatine realized early on it was better to fight Yoda from a distance using force powers and throwing objects at him. In both instances it swung the momentum of the fight from Yoda to his opponents, and this is what Voldemort would be doing, but doing it much better with just a flick of the wrist.

Sorry, my response will come soon. I've been pretty busy today.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Sorry, my response will come soon. I've been pretty busy today. Take your time we end this when we both agree it's over.

I'm almost done.

It takes forever to address everything.

My internet has stopped working. I am talking through my cell phones network. I will send the rest of my posts when my internet returns.

All I'll say atm is nice debate so far, very interesting read with both sides making good arguments.

I'm going to BUMP this thread. Quanchi will be finishing the debate shortly.

Decide the winner and arguments here.

Thx!

Ok, my final summation is up and the debate is over. I didn't want to rehash and address everything over again I feel we both made an argument clear enough to let the people reading it decide on their own. It was so long I hope those who did read it don't skim over a lot of the responses since we did really drag this out into one of the longest battlezones I've ever seen.

It was a "battle"zone all right, and a very comprehensive and passionately debated thread.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
It was a "battle"zone all right, and a very comprehensive and passionately debated thread. And you even got a cool Yoda sig out of the deal.

I bet you didn't expect when you made your challenge in the Battle Bar that it would end up being a 90 post bonanza

Originally posted by Korto Vos


I bet you didn't expect when you made your challenge in the Battle Bar that it would end up being a 90 post bonanza Nope, I did forget how much energy is required for these. I expected it to be considerably less than my two comic book battlezones but it didn't feel any less time consuming.


I just recently watched the under world trilogy and guess what I happen to love Viktor. I wonder who I could pit the vampire elder up against.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nope, I did forget how much energy is required for these. I expected it to be considerably less than my two comic book battlezones but it didn't feel any less time consuming.


I just recently watched the under world trilogy and guess what I happen to love Viktor. I wonder who I could pit the vampire elder up against.

Well I clearly wasn't planning on making it easy for you

But yeah jeez, these things are intense. It is worth it though- a real challenge and a chance to show off your argumentative prowess.

Haha...count me out of that one.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well I clearly wasn't planning on making it easy for you

But yeah jeez, these things are intense. It is worth it though- a real challenge and a chance to show off your argumentative prowess.

Haha...count me out of that one. Yeah, if and when I do another one it probably won't be any time soon. These things take something out of you. I was never a real big Star Wars fan and you seem to have a real love for the franchise that's why this one was perfect. Maybe a special battlezone where Viktor matches wits against Palpatine in a preparation scenario some day. I think that'd be interesting and far different from the normal fight in some random room type scenario.

Star Wars would have to be limited though since it does take place throughout a galaxy and their numbers would just crap all over what we've from from Underworld. I know I'm rambling but maybe some other avid star wars fan will see this and find this sort of challenge interesting.

So how does the voting thing work.

And yea, I think you guys went on for waaaay too long. Need some new rules for that I think.

Yeah, we probably should have limited the amount of posts for each of us or followed a strict deadline.

As for voting, that is up to the discretion of the posters. If you followed the debate, you can decide overall who made a better case and proved why his respective character would win.

Originally posted by Korto Vos

As for voting, that is up to the discretion of the posters. If you followed the debate, you can decide overall who made a better case and proved why his respective character would win.

I'm just thinking if people don't vote that would be rather disappointing given the time and energy spent by both of you. I know who I'm voting for but I don't want to say first

It would be nice to add a poll, but the problem is that some people might vote without reading the debate. Or only reading the first page, and not the entire thread (since new evidence and discussions are mentioned later).

Which is why stating who you think 'won' in this thread is the best, since that might spark a discussion and you can justify why.

I honestly don't think enough people will even weigh in to actually place a poll in I am sure we can just tally it up if you want to in the end. Without official judges it'll be left up in the air in the end and I just want to read opinions on how they felt about the debate. It's about the debate in the end. I suggest writing a brief summation on who you felt won and why. I'm actually surprised no one has responded since but I did feel we lost a lot of posters interest when we told them to wait and considering how many posts this thread had in it.

This movie versus forum needs life breathed back into and hopefully another battlezone will happen soon. I'd like to see two other posters go it it in the same fashion and weigh in at the end. All in all this is just nerd fun.

Since the debate is over, we can ask for 'official judges' to read the thread and decide a winner; they won't have to wait as well.

Blades seemed to do well, responding to my posts in the first round, but he hasn't commented on the rest.

I've mentioned the battlezone in the Star Wars EU/Versus Forums, and people there have been reading parts of the debate.

We just need people to comment here.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Since the debate is over, we can ask for 'official judges' to read the thread and decide a winner; they won't have to wait as well.

Blades seemed to do well, responding to my posts in the first round, but he hasn't commented on the rest.

I've mentioned the battlezone in the Star Wars EU/Versus Forums, and people there have been reading parts of the debate.

We just need people to comment here. I'm happy with just about anyone weighing in. I have yet to hear anything since we have concluded.