Rank the greatest jedi in a top five

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quanchi112
In order from greatest to fifth greatest in your opinion. Also in your reasoning explain why they are where they are on your list due to significance in role and where they rank in overall combat formidability.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nephthys
In terms of Jedi I'd say either the Exile or Luke. Luke because he's just done so many things and had so many adventures. And the Exile because she stopped the Sith Triumvirate almost single-handedly. Thats a single-handed saving of the galaxy. Surprisingly not many Jedi can match that. Revan maybe, but that was a problem he caused himself, so it doesn't count imo. And Yoda barely accomplished anything that we know of.

Probably Luke though.

ares834
Luke.

Korto Vos
Combat Abilities:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. ROTS Anakin Skywalker/"Zonakin"
5. Galen Marek

Honorable Mentions: 6. Kyp Durron 7. Obi-Wan Kenobi

I think Revan would probably be on this list, at #5 or #6, but not enough is known.

Importance (not in any order):

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Anakin Skywalker
3. Revan
4. Odan-Urr
5. Jedi Exile?

Vorpal Ruin
Luke... while I agree to be a great pick, did fall to the dark side at one point. It kinda puts him below others in terms of pureness(?)imo like: Yoda, or Obi Wan. Obi Wan is faithful to the light side, but has significantly less power and authority(and most likely accomplishments) than Yoda.

Yoda would be my pick for #1. The rest in no particular order:

Luke Skywalker

Obi Wan Kenobi

Mace Windu. Incredibly powerful and influential. Created a badass lightsaber form and one of the few characters with shatterpoint. A bit more merciless than others I listed is why I would never rank him as #1 as a jedi.

Anakin Solo. Just read the books is the best I can offer

I really dont like debating game chars, but wouldn't Bastila Shan be a good candidate? I can't remember if she had a turn to the dark or not...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Combat Abilities:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. ROTS Anakin Skywalker/"Zonakin"
5. Galen Marek


And Greatest Contribution to the Jedi Order/Republic:


Luke
Revan
Exile
Uliq Qel Droma (for turning on Exar)
Cade Skywalker


Huh. Not a lot of "Savior" Jedi.


Greatest Displays of (Light) PowAH!:

Luke for being an overpowered everything.
Marek for his Death Blast with Palpatine.
Anakin for subduing the Son and Daughter.
Yoda for something probably in Dark Rendezvous.
Kyp for reversing that Dovin basal (or something) easier than Luke.

Huh. Not a lot of solitary feats of wonder for Jedi.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Luke... while I agree to be a great pick, did fall to the dark side at one point. It kinda puts him below others in terms of pureness The fact that he later went on to found a New Order and made a complete recovery from Palpatine's grasp is strong evidence of his "purity".

ares834
"Wars not make one great."

Anyway, I've got two more considerations. First, is Qui-Gon Jinn. He apperaed to be highly intune with the force and was the epitome of the Jedi. He also redisocered the Shaman of the Whills' technique.

Another even more obscure and controversial choice would be Jacen Solo. He briefly reached a oneness with the force that no other force user has ever attained in life.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Luke... while I agree to be a great pick, did fall to the dark side at one point.

I recall reading somewhere that Luke didn't actually fall to the dark side.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
4. ROTS Anakin Skywalker/"Zonakin

Not really a Jedi IMO.

Toshi
1. Luke Skywalker

(gap)

2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. Nomi Sunrider

(pretty huge ass gap)
5. Revan.

ares834
What did Nomi Sunrider do that was so great?

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The fact that he later went on to found a New Order and made a complete recovery from Palpatine's grasp is strong evidence of his "purity".

No doubt.

He was not immune to corruption, which I view as important when being considered as "best jedi". Yes, he makes up for it; thats why I put him easily in top 5, probably 2nd. I wouldnt really mind if Luke was the best, because I could certainly see why... but I think a jedi should be above falling to corruption, frankly.

Korto Vos
Ganner Rhysode fought off thousands of Vong when he became one with the Force. Ri-vi Anu lifted a Star Destroyer, though for a few seconds, when she accepted death and oneness with the Force. Those were incredible.

Q99
Originally posted by ares834
What did Nomi Sunrider do that was so great?

She severed Ulic Qel-Droma from the force, and she was the one who lead the Wall of Light combined force power in order to imprison Exar Kun's spirit on Yavin.

So pretty much, she was the key figure in ending the Great Sith War.

ares834
Originally posted by Q99
She severed Ulic Qel-Droma from the force, and she was the one who lead the Wall of Light combined force power in order to imprison Exar Kun's spirit on Yavin.

Where do you get the idea that she lead them? In the comic she simply suggests it.

Originally posted by Q99
So pretty much, she was the key figure in ending the Great Sith War.

"A" not "the", let's not get carried away.

And compared to the achivments of the Exile and Revan hers are totally eclipsed.

Q99
Originally posted by ares834
Where do you get the idea that she lead them? In the comic she simply suggests it.

I don't have the comic on hand so I just went by wookiepedia's summary, which said she both suggested it and lead it.

The Ulic moment is more of the key turning point anyway. She both took out one of the enemy's two commanders and got him to help against the other one. The Sith side was doomed once that happened.




True.



Still, even if it's not on the level of the Exile, she's rather impressive.

Korto Vos
Why hasn't anyone else said that Odan-Urr is one the most influential/important/contributional Jedi in the Order?

Odan-Urr predicted Sadow's Sith attack (even though the Senate failed to obey his warnings). However, he was supported by Teta and he was one of the key commanders of the Battle of Kirrek, which was a major victory for the Republic and a devastating loss for Sadow and his army.

He established the Great Jedi Library on Ossus, heavily contributing knowledge to the Order, and was Master of Antiquities.

Most importantly, he interpreted the Jedi Code and created a version that was clear and was practiced for the next several thousand years. The implications of his Code on the Order and later famous Jedi (Revan, Anakin) are well detailed.

IMO, he easily should stand alongside Luke, Anakin, and Revan as some of the most influential Jedi of all time.

Nephthys
Moved since this should really be in this thread rather than the other.



Originally posted by Korto Vos
Revan single-handedly saved the galaxy from the Sith Empire and Star Forge, which were much more powerful than the Sith Triumvirate and its assassins.

And the underlying main character of KOTOR 2 was Revan. Revan influenced everything of galactic importance that happened during that time. The Exile wouldn't be the Exile if it wasn't for Revan. Kreia became Darth Trayus as a result of her search for Revan. Indirectly, Nihilus and Sion owe their Sith existence to Revan. The Sith Triumvirate rose out of the remnants of Revan's old Empire, and only grew dominant after Revan had left the known galaxy.

I don't know how you can say Revan doesn't count. As Kreia/Traya herself said, perhaps after meeting the Sith Emperor, Revan had to fall to prevent a greater evil. Granted, he shouldn't have followed such a dark path, but he delayed the Sith Empire's entrance for several hundred years and prevented them from obtaining the Star Forge.


Revan was the one who created the problem in the first place. The Star Forge wouldn't even be a factor if Revan hadn't of tracked down the Star Maps or if he had never fell to the darkside. How can he be a great Jedi for fixing a problem he himself created in the first place? And no, the Triumvirate was a much greater threat to the galaxy than the Star Forge and the Sith. Nihilus was a threat to Life itself, and if Traya's plan had been successful the Force itself would have died, again representing a threat to literally the entire galaxy rather than just the Republics citizens.

Revan was not the main character of Kotor 2. Much of the story is centered around him and his impact, but the central character is still The Exile and how she saved the galaxy from a far greater threat than Malak and his empire. And Traya was around before Revan.

Traya was guessing at that. Sure it was an informed decision, but ultimately she had no idea what caused Revan to fall, and perhaps she didn't even know the extent to which the Madalorian War changed him. Furthermore Revan has his past as a Sith Lord holding him back as well as the slight problem of him being preprogrammed towards being a Jedi. I seriously disagree with him being a great Jedi on these grounds alone, in that he was brainwashed into acting as the Jedi ideal, rather than by any actual choice. That takes him clean out of the running imo.

Q99
Revan's super-important to be sure, but it's half on Jedi side and half on Sith side, so the points are kinda divided for him compared to someone who's great feats are on one side or another like the Exile.


Also on the Exile's point total, keep in mind the defeat of Nihilus, and he ultimately was a much bigger threat than the assassins.




He set the groundwork for stuff, but others did IMO more. As you say, his warnings of Sadow's attack weren't followed. Also on the code, he revised it's language, he didn't create it from the ground up. The library is probably his biggest contribution.

Definitely one of the most impressive scholars at the least.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Traya was around before Revan.

As Kreia sure, not as Darth Traya though. She didn't fall until she began retraicing her former padawans footsteps and it led her to Malachor V.

Furthermore, I have never believed Kreia could have truly destroyed the force. I mean in the game it isn't really even explained, rather I took it as away for her to drawn the Exile to Malachor V. Or, the theroy I subscribe to, Kreia "killed" the force by transforming the Exile into a vessel that would continue to spread her beliefs.

Nephthys
Is that so? I can't actuallly recall Traya talking about the exact order of events, but I recall that she was at least kicked out of the Order before Revan and hints that she had fallen when she talks about Revan coming to her to learn how to leave the Jedi.

It is explained, you just have to pay attention to a few obscure things she says. Things that don't seem that important at the time, such as on Nar Shaddar when she discusses the 'fractures in the Force' and how they can create 'ripples' that can affect the whole thing. Her goal was to kill the Exile, a wound in the Force, at the centre of Malachor, itself a wound in the Force and a place where these 'fractures' are as well and the resulting chain-reaction would poison the Force and cause it to die.

ares834
Maybe. It's been to long since I played the game. Maybe she did fall prior to Revan, but I'm fairly certain she didn't become Darth traya until she arrived on Malachor V.

As for destroying the force... Yes, I recall her talks on "echoes" and such but she never makes it clear how she is going to create these. Furthermore, if life countined to exist the Force should just come back. And considering how happy she appears to be when you do defeat her I never got the feeling that it was her actual goal.

Q99
I wonder if she was aiming to cause a Vong-like effect across the galaxy.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Nephthys
Moved since this should really be in this thread rather than the other.






Revan was the one who created the problem in the first place. The Star Forge wouldn't even be a factor if Revan hadn't of tracked down the Star Maps or if he had never fell to the darkside. How can he be a great Jedi for fixing a problem he himself created in the first place? And no, the Triumvirate was a much greater threat to the galaxy than the Star Forge and the Sith. Nihilus was a threat to Life itself, and if Traya's plan had been successful the Force itself would have died, again representing a threat to literally the entire galaxy rather than just the Republics citizens.

Revan was not the main character of Kotor 2. Much of the story is centered around him and his impact, but the central character is still The Exile and how she saved the galaxy from a far greater threat than Malak and his empire. And Traya was around before Revan.

Traya was guessing at that. Sure it was an informed decision, but ultimately she had no idea what caused Revan to fall, and perhaps she didn't even know the extent to which the Madalorian War changed him. Furthermore Revan has his past as a Sith Lord holding him back as well as the slight problem of him being preprogrammed towards being a Jedi. I seriously disagree with him being a great Jedi on these grounds alone, in that he was brainwashed into acting as the Jedi ideal, rather than by any actual choice. That takes him clean out of the running imo.

I agree Traya was speculating, but as someone who knew Revan well and even trained him, I would trust her explanation of Revan's fall. The man was already on way to saving the Republic from the Mandalorians when he uncovered the existence of the hidden Sith Empire. He realized that was a much greater threat, and understood that such a force could only be repelled by a united galaxy under the leadership of a strong, charismatic leader and military genius (namely himself).

The Sith Emperor knew of the Star Forge, and assigned Revan and Malak to search for the Star Maps. If Revan hadn't discovered the location of the Star Forge, the Sith Emperor certainly would have later. Revan only planned to use the Star Forge to conquer the galaxy, never to draw power from it. If Traya's statement is true, this attitude makes greater sense. Revan knew the titanic perils if the Sith Emperor wielded the Star Forge; therefore, he used the space station for his own purposes. Even if those purposes weren't noble and more selfish, it was Revan's defiance that delayed the arrival of the Sith Empire.

Revan is the underlying main character of KOTOR 2. Everything that happening in that galaxy was a result of his actions. Traya, Nihilus, and the entire Triumvirate all owe existence to him. The Exile wouldn't have been a "wound in the Force" if not for Revan's command.

However, I agree with your argument that Nihilus was a threat to all life, and the Exile saved the galaxy from that. Yet, the Star Forge in the hands of the true Sith would have been incredibly catastrophic as well. And Revan destroyed that space station.

And finally, even if Revan had been reprogrammed, he regained his memories later. He saw darkness and the potential of unlimited power, but rejected it in favor of light.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
Furthermore, if life countined to exist the Force should just come back.

Highlighted for emphasis. My understanding is that killing the Force would lead to the death of everything connected to it, or at least everything that isn't as strong willed as The Exile. That is why Kreia is so obsessed with her after all, because she proves that life can go on without the Force. But she is veeery much in the minority and the destuction of the Force would, imo, probably lead to untold destruction, the likes of which is simply incalculable.

Korto Vos
Btw Nepthys, I responded to your earlier post. It's above ^

Lord Lucien
"Go on without the Force."


Bullshit plot device is bullshit. The Exile can be a "Wound" all she likes, but a wound is just a dent, an injury in the body as a whole--but it's still alive and present. The Exile's use and sense of the Force to such extents in the game is proof that she's not "dead to" or "outside of" or "removed from" the Force. Same with Nihilus. They exists within the Force, they're just warped from their experiences. Kreia's cryptic word-play is a real piss off.

Nephthys
Except they do not still exist within the Force. The only way that the Exile and Nihilus can still use the Force is by leeching it from others. Thats why the Exile only gets back her ability to use the Force when she meets and is bonded to Kriea. She is specifically noted to be an 'absense in the Force'. In a sense she is no different from Sion, a corpse who is somehow able to walk around, only where he is dead in the flesh, she is dead in the Force.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Q99
Revan's super-important to be sure, but it's half on Jedi side and half on Sith side, so the points are kinda divided for him compared to someone who's great feats are on one side or another like the Exile.


Also on the Exile's point total, keep in mind the defeat of Nihilus, and he ultimately was a much bigger threat than the assassins.




He set the groundwork for stuff, but others did IMO more. As you say, his warnings of Sadow's attack weren't followed. Also on the code, he revised it's language, he didn't create it from the ground up. The library is probably his biggest contribution.

Definitely one of the most impressive scholars at the least.

1. C'mon, the Star Wars Universe loves the good guy gone bad gone good. A Jedi that has fallen, becomes stronger in the Dark Side, but rejects it and becomes ultimately more powerful as an avatar of light is the truest sign of a Jedi Knight- a redeemed warrior that has seen both sides of the Force but still accepts the Light Side. Luke Skywalker hasn't been beyond corruption either, but he is arguably one of the most important Jedi of all time.

2. Which ones can you name that have done more (apart from Luke, Anakin, Revan, and Exile)? Odan-Urr was critical in a battle that devastated a significant portion of Sadow's army. He was critical in establishing a library that would contribute to Jedi knowledge. And he was critical in developing a Code (that was previously esoteric to the Order) that would form the basis behind Jedi training and policy for the next four thousand years.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except they do not still exist within the Force. The only way that the Exile and Nihilus can still use the Force is by leeching it from others. Thats why the Exile only gets back her ability to use the Force when she meets and is bonded to Kriea. She is specifically noted to be an 'absense in the Force'. In a sense she is no different from Sion, a corpse who is somehow able to walk around, only where he is dead in the flesh, she is dead in the Force. lITBGjNEp08

Nephthys
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/27/128931977895205652.jpg

Lord Lucien
Oh well okay then.




...

Gawd that game sucked.

Nephthys
Why? Because it had such subtlety to it that we can even have this discussion?

Lord Lucien
I've detailed my opinions on the game quite extensively in that KotOR thread in the Vs. some months back.

Nephthys
link....?

Q99
Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. C'mon, the Star Wars Universe loves the good guy gone bad gone good. A Jedi that has fallen, becomes stronger in the Dark Side, but rejects it and becomes ultimately more powerful as an avatar of light is the truest sign of a Jedi Knight- a redeemed warrior that has seen both sides of the Force but still accepts the Light Side. Luke Skywalker hasn't been beyond corruption either, but he is arguably one of the most important Jedi of all time.

But Luke's done a ton of good stuff compared to his bad. He brought down the Emperor via turning Vader, as well as defeating the Emperor Reborn, he led the Jedi against the Vong, and handled many smaller threats. As well as, of course, recreating the order from the ground up.

If a large chunk of your good stuff is simply undoing your bad stuff, then you're largely canceling out. It's a very compelling story, but it doesn't quite get you the title of 'top' smile

Likewise, Vader's not going to be any Jedi's top list in universe even though he killed Palpatine and put an end to the Rule of Two.




Nomi?

Odan-Urr was critical in one important battle, but there's been many important battles. She defeated and turned an enemy commander in a war just as big.

There's been other libraries just as important (that one lasted a thousand years). And while he did formalize the code, it was based on existing philosophies.

Lord Hoth cornered the Brotherhood of Darkness and brought them to the world that'd spell their defeat.


Lesse, Cade's kinda a stretch, but he both killed Krayt and destroyed the Muur talisman. Two galactic threats.

Nephthys
Nomi did rebuild and lead the Jedi Order after Exar Kun was defeated as wll remember.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nephthys
link....? http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t548905.html

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Q99
But Luke's done a ton of good stuff compared to his bad. He brought down the Emperor via turning Vader, as well as defeating the Emperor Reborn, he led the Jedi against the Vong, and handled many smaller threats. As well as, of course, recreating the order from the ground up.

If a large chunk of your good stuff is simply undoing your bad stuff, then you're largely canceling out. It's a very compelling story, but it doesn't quite get you the title of 'top' smile

Likewise, Vader's not going to be any Jedi's top list in universe even though he killed Palpatine and put an end to the Rule of Two.




Nomi?

Odan-Urr was critical in one important battle, but there's been many important battles. She defeated and turned an enemy commander in a war just as big.

There's been other libraries just as important (that one lasted a thousand years). And while he did formalize the code, it was based on existing philosophies.

Lord Hoth cornered the Brotherhood of Darkness and brought them to the world that'd spell their defeat.


Lesse, Cade's kinda a stretch, but he both killed Krayt and destroyed the Muur talisman. Two galactic threats.


1. Fine, let's go by your cancelling rule:

Revan saves the galaxy from Mandalorian rule +1

Revan falls to the Dark Side and establishes a Sith Empire -1

Revan finds the Star Forge but uses it sparingly -1

Revan redeems himself and defeats his own Empire +1

Revan more or less bring about the destruction the Star Forge (the nearly invincible space station that was to be the trump card of the Sith Emperor) that was dangerously being used by Malak +2

Revan prevents the Sith Emperor's war machine from invasion, thereby ensuring galactic peace for another few hundred years +1

+5; -2 (and those points might have been out of necessity with Revan falling to the Dark Side to fight the greater evil, as Traya remarked). So Revan ended up doing more than just righting his own wrongs.


2. How is Anakin Skywalker not on the list of most important Jedi? He is the "Chosen One," and he brought balance to the Force. He effectively destroyed the Rule of 2 (the best Sith philosophy). Sidious was the ultimate product of this teaching, and he was the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. His removal of Sidious brought the collapse of one the strongest Empires in galactic history (if the not the most iron-fisted). Sure, many wars would happen over the next hundred years, and Sidious would return and other Sith would emerge. However, Anakin's sacrifice allowed Luke Skywalker to achieve his potential and remain fixated on the path of Light, allowed the formation of the New Republic, and with a free galaxy granted Luke Skywalker the safety of establishing the New Jedi Order.

3. The Code was esoteric and not clear-cut before Urr wrote his Teachings. Bane took Revan's beliefs and constructed the Rule of Two. Likewise, Urr took the scattered philosophies of the Code and established a document that detailed the proper conduct for a Jedi. And these ideas were closely practiced by the Order for thousands of years.

(Ex: In Hinduism, for example, the original Vedas contained many abstract ideas that needed clearer elucidation and expansion. One of the key philosophers, Yajnavalkya, interpreted the Vedas and was credited as one of the primary authors (if not the main) of the collection of teachings known as the Upanishads, the ideas of which form the key philosophies of Hinduism).

4. Hoth couldn't have won without Farfalla, and both armies were almost wiped out on Ruusan. No side would have won, but Kaan was cracked and decided to unleash a thought bomb.

Toshi
Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Fine, let's go by your cancelling rule:

Revan saves the galaxy from Mandalorian rule +1
This a pretty arbitrary system...
Revan stopped the Mandalorian threat but he disobeyed the will of the Jedi Council and enlisted others to disobey as well. That led to numerous Padawans and Knights turning to the dark side as well. Which includes Malak who destroyed everything that got in his way.


k


Where did it say he sued it sparingly? Haven't played it in awhile but the only thing I remember is that Revan didn't destroy important Republic worlds so he can use it to stop the unidentified Sith Emperor. Where does it say he used it sparingly? Why go through the trouble of finding it to not use it?


It wasn't an act of his own will but sure.


Which was instrumental of the action above. It shouldn't be counted twice.


Which again is tied up to destroying the Star Forge. It's a another free point. And no, that alone did not ensure galactic peace. The Exile gets half a point here at least for stabilizing the Republic. If she didn't do anything the Republic would have crumbled due to lack of resources and infighting. The Sith would find everything FUBAR.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Toshi
This a pretty arbitrary system...
Revan stopped the Mandalorian threat but he disobeyed the will of the Jedi Council and enlisted others to disobey as well. That led to numerous Padawans and Knights turning to the dark side as well. Which includes Malak who destroyed everything that got in his way.


k


Where did it say he sued it sparingly? Haven't played it in awhile but the only thing I remember is that Revan didn't destroy important Republic worlds so he can use it to stop the unidentified Sith Emperor. Where does it say he used it sparingly? Why go through the trouble of finding it to not use it?


It wasn't an act of his own will but sure.


Which was instrumental of the action above. It shouldn't be counted twice.


Which again is tied up to destroying the Star Forge. It's a another free point. And no, that alone did not ensure galactic peace. The Exile gets half a point here at least for stabilizing the Republic. If she didn't do anything the Republic would have crumbled due to lack of resources and infighting. The Sith would find everything FUBAR.

Lovely, 2 on 1!

1. Yes, he disobeyed the will of Council, which was going to sit by and let the Republic fall, and countless worlds destroyed. Besides, the corruption of the other Jedi happens in his establishment of the Sith Empire, which I noted. However, he created a holocron that Bane later studied. -1

2. He only used the Star Forge to construct a large fleet for battle. He didn't bother tapping into the Dark energies of the space station; all he cared about was the stability of the galaxy under his control, which mandated a large armada. -1

3. How the in the world is it not his own will? He REMEMBERS his past, and still rejects the Dark Side. And he is tempted again by the one he loves, and rejects it twice more. And after killing Malak, he is tempted to take his mantle as Dark Lord with the Star Forge unleashed and a host of Sith at his call, but he rejects the Dark Side again. It IS HIS OWN WILL. I give him a +1 boss point for being such a paragon Jedi, Knight of the Republic.

4. The destruction of the Sith Empire is +1. And I was being generous as the destruction of the Star Forge should count for like +3 because it was basically an invincible space station. But +3 overall

5. The delay of the hidden Sith Empire war machine for several hundred years definitely deserves a point. +1

6. For kick's sake, I'll give -2 because in the wake of his disappearance, Kreia goes off and becomes Traya, and trains Nihilus and Sion, who start the Triumvirate.

In the end, we still manage +1.


The whole point behind the arbitrary approach above is to demonstrate that Revan did more than just right his wrongs.

Q99
Still, you've got great Jedi who never forged a Sith Empire and brought the galaxy to it's knees at all.

Forging a Sith Empire is, I think, worth a lot more than -1 in most Jedi's eyes.


Especially considering his writings while Sith inspired multiple other forms of the Sith down the road aside from the Triumvirate. Darth Rivan, and giving Darth Bane the idea for the Rule of Two.




Because he was Darth Vader for decades and was one of the central people responsible for the Jedi purge, personally killing hundreds. He lead the inquisition to seek out and kill survivors, he destroyed worlds, and so on.

That's a whole ton of bad points. It's not like he had a brief flirtation with the dark side ala Luke, he did a lot of evil stuff.




Kaan wouldn't have cracked if he wasn't in a corner.

That was the culmination of a long campaign with many victories. Sure, it required Farfalla for the final push, but they had taken the Sith down from a very strong point down to the edge.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except they do not still exist within the Force. The only way that the Exile and Nihilus can still use the Force is by leeching it from others. Thats why the Exile only gets back her ability to use the Force when she meets and is bonded to Kriea. She is specifically noted to be an 'absense in the Force'. In a sense she is no different from Sion, a corpse who is somehow able to walk around, only where he is dead in the flesh, she is dead in the Force.

Doesn't it require the force to leech the force. And Nihilus as shown that he gets weak if he does not feed on the force after so long. So even wounds require the force to live, right?

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Ganner Rhysode fought off thousands of Vong when he became one with the Force.

Amazing feat indeed. I liked Ganner and that scene was fun to read, however he was a joke of a jedi until the end. He shouldn't be anywhere near a list of greatest jedi.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Q99
Still, you've got great Jedi who never forged a Sith Empire and brought the galaxy to it's knees at all.

Forging a Sith Empire is, I think, worth a lot more than -1 in most Jedi's eyes.


Especially considering his writings while Sith inspired multiple other forms of the Sith down the road aside from the Triumvirate. Darth Rivan, and giving Darth Bane the idea for the Rule of Two.

Fine, it can be worth -10 million if you want it to. I'm just saying that Revan left behind a tremendous legacy that affected the Jedi and Sith Orders and the immediate and long-term future of the galaxy. To say he simply fixed what he started is ridiculous, because his actions had an impact that reverberated throughout the galaxy.



The Jedi Order that Vader helped exterminate was one that was static and ceased to change over the course of the millennia. In this way, with his removal of Sidious, which broke apart the Galactic Empire, Vader brought balance to the Force by allowing Luke Skywalker to rebuild a Jedi Order that wasn't rigid and lost in its way to perceive the Force.




Yet, both armies on Ruusan were almost destroyed, as it was. Kaan had no reason to unleash the thought bomb. It was not as if Hoth vastly outnumbered him.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Amazing feat indeed. I liked Ganner and that scene was fun to read, however he was a joke of a jedi until the end. He shouldn't be anywhere near a list of greatest jedi.

I think it deserves to be in the pantheon of greatest Jedi feats, even if Rhysode himself wasn't exactly glamorous.

Q99
Originally posted by Korto Vos
I think it deserves to be in the pantheon of greatest Jedi feats, even if Rhysode himself wasn't exactly glamorous.

Agreed.

Likewise, Rivi Anu never got a chance to do anything but her uber feat.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by Korto Vos
I think it deserves to be in the pantheon of greatest Jedi feats, even if Rhysode himself wasn't exactly glamorous.

Yes, but 1 feat does not make him one of the best jedi. You can't just pick the 1 thing he did great and ignore all the rest of his history lol

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Doesn't it require the force to leech the force.

Apparantly not. Though that can be explained by saying that it was not the Exile who originally fostered the bond between her and Kreia, but the other way around. Or I suppose it is possible that it was just something the Exile can do without being connected to the Force. I mean, even a dead body can still move reflexively I suppose. My guess is this one because it at least explains Nihilus more.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And Nihilus as shown that he gets weak if he does not feed on the force after so long. So even wounds require the force to live, right?

No, Nihilus isn't like the Exile, he couldn't take not being connected to the Force so he forcably attacked and drained his fellow survivors of Malachor. Plus he no longer has a physical body, he is just a spirit/force ghost attatched to his armor, thus it makes sense that he needs the Force to sustain himself, unlike the Exile who survived without it for several years.


Basically the entire point of the game is that the Exile wasn't connected to the Force anymore. Its insane to doubt this fact because it is the bedrock upon which the entire game is built.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Yes, but 1 feat does not make him one of the best jedi. You can't just pick the 1 thing he did great and ignore all the rest of his history lol

But it's a feat. I'm not talking anything about Rhysode himself, just that his feat of taking on thousands of Vong when united with the Force is one of the best.

And I find it difficult looking for feats of the same caliber.

Nephthys
This thread isn't 'greatest jedi feats' though.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Nephthys
This thread isn't 'greatest jedi feats' though.

I know. I already posted my list of 5 strongest Jedi, 5 most influential Jedi, and I'm now discussing 5 greatest feats by a Jedi.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Basically the entire point of the game is that the Exile wasn't connected to the Force anymore. Its insane to doubt this fact because it is the bedrock upon which the entire game is built.

Then it's built on shaky bedrock. Afterall, Malachor V is described as a wound in the force and yet it's noted that the force is extremly strong on the planet.

akpwnz
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Ganner Rhysode fought off thousands of Vong when he became one with the Force. Ri-vi Anu lifted a Star Destroyer, though for a few seconds, when she accepted death and oneness with the Force. Those were incredible.


This. How is it no one else mentioned Ganner? He slaughtered more Vong in a matter of minutes than the entire Jedi order did over the span of 5 years. He was in beast mode and the only other two Jedi who displayed that kind of raw power were Anakin Solo and Jacen but not nearly on the same level as Ganner.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by ares834
Then it's built on shaky bedrock. Afterall, Malachor V is described as a wound in the force and yet it's noted that the force is extremly strong on the planet. Shoddy writing.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by akpwnz
This. How is it no one else mentioned Ganner? He slaughtered more Vong in a matter of minutes than the entire Jedi order did over the span of 5 years. He was in beast mode and the only other two Jedi who displayed that kind of raw power were Anakin Solo and Jacen but not nearly on the same level as Ganner.

No one mentioned Ganner because he wasn't one of the top five jedi of all time. Its not complex confused

Lord Lucien
It was a pretty b*tchin feat, though. A decent runner-up for the Greatest Lone Feats of PowAH(!). But as it wasn't a consistent and readily attainable ability, it doesn't prop Ganner in to the top Combatants category.

Lucius
Reading this thread has reminded me why the vast majority of SW is shit and at same time exposes my pathetic ass for what it really as, a fanboypurveyor of shit.

Lord Lucien
Shit's fun when it's wrapped in lasers.

Lucius
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Shit's fun when it's wrapped in lasers.

It is, it really is.

Damn you GL, damn you.

Arhael
About Luke falling to the dark side. No matter what it was wise choice. It allowed Luke to discover location of cloning facility and destruction codes of world devastators. Also, his falling to the darkside wasn't voluntary but by Emperors incredibly strong mind influence. I consider it a form of a sacrifice.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
About Luke falling to the dark side. No matter what it was wise choice. In hindsight. At the time it was one of only two choices, the other being death--which served nothing. At the moment he made the choice to live he was gambling that he'd prevail over Palpatine. Only a few variables needed to shift for his gamble/choice to suddenly become 'unwise' (from the perspective of hindsight).

C-3POTheClever
Bellow is the list in my opinion.

1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. ROTS Anakin
4. ROTJ Luke
5. Obi Wan Kenobi

Arhael
1. Qui-Gon Jinn - discovered chosen one. Invented technique of becoming one with the force, which was crucial as Obi-Wan was able to guide Luke after death and help destroy Death Star, since it was used by many Jedi. One of the wisest Jedi of old order, formidable lightsaber combatant and force user. Trained Obi-Wan and made out of him example of ideal Jedi in every way.

2. Obi-Wan Kenobi - because of him Anakin was given the chance to become Jedi. Was one of the strongest lightsaber combatants of old order, defeated very strong sith, when was Jedi Knight, in ROTS he was on on level with Yoda, Dooku and Windu. The only his weakness was that he didn't have particular talent in defending against force like, when he couldn't break from Dooku's force grip, yet he could make very powerful Force pushes. Took care of Luke and in very short time was able to put Luke on right track and continued guiding him even after death.

3. Anakin Skywalker. By ROTS became fastest Jedi in order. Only Yoda and Obi-Wan could much him, Obi was the only Jedi in Academy able to confront him but only because he was his teacher, yet Anakin was driving him back whole duel. But his most influence was giving life to two twins, one of which became the most powerful Jedi in history.

4. Luke Skywalker - "Legendary war hero". Maintained balance in the Force. Alone not just restored Jedi but created New Order - stronger and without limitations of old one. "Became what his father could have" - the most powerful Jedi and lightsaber combatant of all time. Played vital role in saving galaxy through out his entire life and even over hundred years later as ghost spirit. Trained Solo children, which had very significant roles in fate of the galaxy and Jedi.

5. Jasen Solo - Played key role in defeating Yuzhan Vong - the greatest threat galaxy ever faced. In final battle achieved state of oneness with the Force in such purest form that it was beyond any Force user in history ever experienced. One of the strongest lightsaber combatants in New Order on level with sister and Mara. Post Vong war he became the most versatile Jedi known. Slave seed in his breast allowed him sensing Yuzhan Vong and controlling Vong creatures, which are void in the Force. Ability to embrace pain taught by Verger allowed him not only sustaining serious damage but, also, drawing on it to become stronger. Over 5 years of self-exile learned a lot of new and unique techniques of different Force sensitive groups. Even as Sith Lord he was no less unique. Unlike other darksiders he became Sith not because of selfishness but selflessness. He did evil things for greater good. Unlike Emperor and other mad Force abusers gaining power by draining life energy from elsewhere his power came only from within and with amazing fits. Ironically his actions ultimately led to order and stability in the galaxy being restored.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
1. Qui-Gon Jinn... Invented technique of becoming one with the force What?

Arhael
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What?
I meant ghost spirit. ) Even Yoda didn't know that technique, it was Jinn, who taught him.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
I meant ghost spirit. ) Even Yoda didn't know that technique, it was Jinn, who taught him. So all the Force ghosts that appeared before Qui-Gon... don't count to you?

Nephthys
He rediscovered it iirc.

Arhael
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So all the Force ghosts that appeared before Qui-Gon... don't count to you? I don't count Sith with their dark spirits. Also, obviously, it was done by Jedi before, yet, too the order of Yoda's time it was unknown and I am not surprised since this order lost it's way. Invented, reinvented, rediscovered - it's all word's play. Main point is that, if not Qui-Gon, then there would be no happy Force ghost triplet at the end of ROTJ.

Lord Lucien
If not for Qui-Gon's joint idiocy with the entire Jedi Council, Anakin would never have been trained. He's actually one of the worst Jedi.

ares834
If Anakin wasn't trained than nobody would have killed the Emperor. And yes the Galactic Empire would have still formed as Vader wasn't instrumental in its creation.

Lord Lucien
And Palpatine still would not have deserved mad props because all of his adversaries were effing retarded.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by ares834
If Anakin wasn't trained than nobody would have killed the Emperor. And yes the Galactic Empire would have still formed as Vader wasn't instrumental in its creation.
If Anakin wasn't trained, Yoda probably could have brought Dooku back to the light side of the force during Dark Rendezvous. At which point Palpatine would have been royally ****ed.

DARTH POWER
^ Lol I doubt it. Although it's possible Mace would have still confronted Palpatine to stand down as Chancellor, and therefore possible Mace might have killed Palpatine.

Arhael
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If not for Qui-Gon's joint idiocy with the entire Jedi Council, Anakin would never have been trained. He's actually one of the worst Jedi.

If not Anakin, battle at Nabu would be lost and subsequent war.
What you mean worth Jedi? Yes, he wasn't wise but he has done a lot for republic as Jedi. His contribution was game breaking in winning clone war. Another matter is that all that contribution was pointless since no matter who won the war, Palpatine would be on winning side regardless. But all Jedi actively participated in war no matter how wise and experienced they were, even Yoda, on this ground they all were worth Jedi.

Anakin gets in top 5 for simply being father of Luke - Jedi that created new stronger order capable of facing greatest threats in the galaxy.

Arhael
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If Anakin wasn't trained, Yoda probably could have brought Dooku back to the light side of the force during Dark Rendezvous. At which point Palpatine would have been royally ****ed.
Redeem Dooku? 0_o You are talking not about some youngster that lost his way but about very old man that was wise Jedi most of his life for 70 years, had plenty of time to analyse all ups and downs and voluntarily choose darkside.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
If not Anakin, battle at Nabu would be lost and subsequent war.
What you mean worth Jedi? Yes, he wasn't wise but he has done a lot for republic as Jedi. His contribution was game breaking in winning clone war. Another matter is that all that contribution was pointless since no matter who won the war, Palpatine would be on winning side regardless. But all Jedi actively participated in war no matter how wise and experienced they were, even Yoda, on this ground they all were worth Jedi.

Anakin gets in top 5 for simply being father of Luke - Jedi that created new stronger order capable of facing greatest threats in the galaxy. Without looking via hindsight, the choices, and lack of choices that went on with the Prequel Jedi, were mindbogglingly stupid. Don't look at the end result years in the future and lay down praise for any good that happened. Look at the choices the individuals make at the very moment they made them.


I'd simply recommend you watch RedlLetterMedia's reviews of the Prequel Trilogy, as he sums up it up better than I could. Suffice to say that G-canon movie decision made in the moment, were just plain effing retarded.

Qui-Gon takes the cake for the worst choices made, with Anakin a close second. Unimaginably stupid.

Arhael
Not arguing with this one. But why Qui-Gon? Surely he couldn't know what would come out of Anakin.

Nephthys
Qui-Gon wasn't that bad. He's certainly not as stupid as Anakin.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
Not arguing with this one. But why Qui-Gon? Surely he couldn't know what would come out of Anakin. Again, it's not about what will happen, it's about what's happening at the very moment. Don't even watch the AotC and RotS reviews, just the Phantom Menace one. He makes so many foolish, useless choices as to be... unbelievable. Hindsight (and plot necessity) pushes him through, but its the characters' thought process at the moment he chooses which makes him so bad. I put Anakin just below him simply because Qui-Gon came first, and had the rank of 'Master'. It's not the magnanimous, galaxy-influencing decision I'm talking about, it's the smaller things. Big things are complicated and take a lot of brain calculations, so it's a bit more forgivable if you mess up.


But things like don't drink the tea, don't stand in the gas, don't split up, don't follow a cartoon rabbit underwater, don't pop up in broad daylight, don't follow a straight-line in a 3D space, don't bring useless people with you, don't limit yourself to one shop, don't try to scam people out of their possessions, don't make convoluted bets when simple re-purchasing will suffice, don't pin all your everythings on a slave-child's ability to deathrace, don't presume, don't resist the caution of a council of masters who predict a dark path for your pupil-messiah, don't bring said underage messiah in to a warzone, don't return to an enemy-occupied world with a Sith Lord whom nearly bested you without the aid of other and better Jedi, should all be fairly simple things to understand.


Not for Jinny.

Herbert Spencer
It would have been equally inept and just as potentially dangerous to let an untrained Anakin roam the galaxy once he was discovered. You don't think Palpatine would have made them pay for that?



Remind me which decisions those were? I often hear/read this complaint with respect to prequel Jedi and nothing that constitutes a genuine criticism is ever presented beyond WELL WE KNOW PALPATINE IS SIDIOUS THEREFORE SO SHOULD THEY.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
It would have been equally inept and just as potentially dangerous to let an untrained Anakin roam the galaxy once he was discovered. You don't think Palpatine would have made them pay for that?



Remind me which decisions those were? I often hear/read this complaint with respect to prequel Jedi and nothing that constitutes a genuine criticism is ever presented beyond WELL WE KNOW PALPATINE IS SIDIOUS THEREFORE SO SHOULD THEY. You made this post at 3:43 pm EST, so unless there's about an hour delay in the site's updates where you are, you definitely should have seen my subsequent post at 2:47 pm EST.


ChangeEdit now!

Herbert Spencer
That doesn't answer my first question and I refer not to Jinn, but the "prequel Jedi" as a collective.

Nephthys
The Sith re-emerging and all the Jedi do is say 'we'll look into it' and sit on their asses looking to see who'll be elected Chancellor was pretty dumb. Send some ****ing back-up with Qui-Gon you incompetent assholes.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sith re-emerging and all the Jedi do is say 'we'll look into it' and sit on their asses looking to see who'll be elected Chancellor was pretty dumb.

How would you have approached ze situation?



Now that I can agree with, though Qui-Gon wasn't supposed to fight anyone, just escort her back.

Nephthys
The Sith had already attacked Padme and the group once. Which is why its dumb they don't send anyone back with him to help out, because even if he's just escorting her Maul might (and did) attack again. Thats what I meant.

Herbert Spencer
No, I agree.

Nephthys
Good. Now look at my PM on ROK. >_<

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
That doesn't answer my first question and I refer not to Jinn, but the "prequel Jedi" as a collective. Yoda: "Chosen One, the boy may be. But nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training."
Obi-Wan: "Oh wise and ancient Master of the Jedi... pleeeeeeeease? I made a promise!"
Yoda: "Oh, okay."


Mace: "We will use all of our resources to uncovering the identity of your attacker whom you suspect is a Sith. Now go back to that enemy-occupied world alone, without any support or further resources. Hope you don't die while you unravel the mystery of the Sith."


Mace: "Padawan Anakin "Grave Danger" Skywalker, Senator Amidala is being targeted by assassins. Escort her alone back to the most obvious hiding spot we can think of."
Anakin: "Yes, master. I'll be sure to parade her around in broad daylight in the middle of a lake."


Obi-Wan: "I just found an army of clones that was ordered from one of our own, now dead, Jedi Masters."
Mace: "Alright, let's not worry about that."
Obi-Wan: Oh, okay.


Obi-Wan: "Do you think it's true what Dooku said, about Sidious controlling the Senate?"
Yoda: "Who knows, let's not do anything about it."
Obi-Wan: "Oh, okay."


Anakin: "General Grievous is hiding in the Mustafar system. If we catch that Jedi-killing, cunning, hard-to-catch monster, we can end this war."
Jedi Council: "Agreed, let's send Obi-Wan alone, instead of with his long-time friend and comrade, Grave Danger, whom we'll dispatch to spy on his long-time personal counsel, and ever-more-powerful Chancellor, Palpatine, because we think Palpatine may be tied to the Dark Side. Good luck, Grave Danger."


Palpatine: "You will not believe how much I know about the Sith. Now execute that man, and leave your best friend here to die."
Anakin: "God, I trust you."


Mace: "Palpatine may be a Sith Lord. So let's go arrest him in the dead of night, in his office, away from any witnesses, with only four of us, instead of confronting him in daytime, in public, and forcing him to either flee, 'fess up, or submit to tests which we have never implemented in the past three years, despite Dooku's testimony, and the necessity for hunting down the last Sith."
Kit, Agen, Saesse: "Oh, okay."


Yoda: "Obi-Wan, let's split up, instead of uniting against the Sith one at a time--divide and conquer style."
Obi-Wan: "Yes, wise and ancient Master of the Jedi."

Herbert Spencer
k

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sith had already attacked Padme and the group once. Which is why its dumb they don't send anyone back with him to help out, because even if he's just escorting her Maul might (and did) attack again. Thats what I meant.

Thing is the Council were not convinced it was a Sith. Mace and Mundi both objected to even contemplating that idea.

Perhaps Qui-Gon had a history of exagerating threats to the Council roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thing is the Council were not convinced it was a Sith. Mace and Mundi both objected to even contemplating that idea.

And that makes them not dumb?

Herbert Spencer
So I missed Lucien's post completely, which makes me think the sneaky Canadian edited it in. mmm



no expression

To put it charitably, I think you may have distorted the facts slightly in each example of your response. I'd rather not get into a part and parcel dissection, which would be tedious, but I'd like to make my point just the same with two examples.

For example, what wisdom is there to be had in Obi-Wan's presence in the fight again Sidious when Kenobi was so utterly overwhelmed by Dooku? Why is it that you condemn Anakin for trusting one Sith and yet condemn the Jedi as well for not trusting another one?

The point was not to get you to point out their failures in action, but failures in thought and motivation.

Arhael
Lucien, so sad that this forum doesn't allow to click "like" on your last post.
Can't really discuss about Qui-Gon actions as it's been ages since I last watched that episode.

But really as Anakin was Chosen one it was will of the Force that led Qui-Gon to discover him. So it's kind of double sided coin, since Jedi trust the Force and do what they feel right, even if makes no sence.

Lord Lucien
I think it was the will of the Force that led Qui-Gon to discover Anakin who assisted in the extermination of a 1,000 generation-old order of peacekeepers, the effective enslavement of a galaxy under Sith rule, the deaths of billions, including the destruction of several planets--one of them a peaceful, Core world and founding member of the Republic. Which Anakin helped topple.


Just so, in the end, they could get rid of one guy. Who, if his enemies had been capable of a 3rd grader's level of intelligence, should have been killed before all that crap transpired.


I think either Qui-Gon was secretly a galactic hellspawn, or the Force has an incredibly malevolent and sick will.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think it was the will of the Force that led Qui-Gon to discover Anakin who assisted in the extermination of a 1,000 generation-old order of peacekeepers, the effective enslavement of a galaxy under Sith rule, the deaths of billions, including the destruction of several planets--one of them a peaceful, Core world and founding member of the Republic. Which Anakin helped topple.


Just so, in the end, they could get rid of one guy. Who, if his enemies had been capable of a 3rd grader's level of intelligence, should have been killed before all that crap transpired.


I think either Qui-Gon was secretly a galactic hellspawn, or the Force has an incredibly malevolent and sick will.

I was going to post a picture of Kreia with an accompanying 'This pleases Kreia', but I can't find a single picture of Kreia smiling.

Lord Lucien
The trick is to look in to her lifeless eyes. The satisfaction is in them.

Nephthys
http://elderscrollsivoblivion.webs.com/photos/Star-Wars-Sith-Lords/250px-Kreia_Trayus_Hoodless.jpg

Me Gusta.

Lord Lucien
Oh yeah, I totally got her wet.

Arhael
I think either Qui-Gon was secretly a galactic hellspawn, or the Force has an incredibly malevolent and sick will.
The Future is always in motion, there was possibility of Anakin not falling. Yes, there is will of the force but there are, also Force abusers doing things against its will. Republic downfall was inevitable regardless of Anakin.

RE: Blaxican
Hmmm... no. If Sideous had been killed by Mace, that would have pretty much been the end of Sideous' enslavement of the Galaxy.

Since, you know, he'd be dead and all.

Arhael
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Hmmm... no. If Sideous had been killed by Mace, that would have pretty much been the end of Sideous' enslavement of the Galaxy.

Since, you know, he'd be dead and all.
How Windu discovered about Palpatine? Correct, because of Anakin. And if Windu won once, it doesn't make him the winner by default...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
The Future is always in motion, there was possibility of Anakin not falling. Yes, there is will of the force but there are, also Force abusers doing things against its will. Republic downfall was inevitable regardless of Anakin.

Originally posted by Arhael
How Windu discovered about Palpatine? Correct, because of Anakin. And if Windu won once, it doesn't make him the winner by default... I thought the future's always in motion? Why can't there have been a future without Anakin that still resulted in Palpatine's death before he could strike? It doesn't matter, because Qui-Gon's supposed "Will of the Force" caused years of suffering. The "Will of the Force" had to rely on a Sith-experiment in biology to eventually stop Palpatine? Why didn't the "Will of the Force" simply lead the Jedi to Palpatine and reveal him as Sith?

This is what's wrong with the Prequels. The movies make no sense and can't even ensure their own credibility. They rely on the EU and the fanbase to make excuses and explanations for then.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
And that makes them not dumb?

It makes half of them dumb..

We need more proof that all of them were dumb stick out tongue

Herbert Spencer
Lord Lucien
This is what's wrong with the Prequels. The movies make no sense and can't even ensure their own credibility.

The prequels are hardly without flaw but the overall narrative is coherent and credible enough. That you criticise them disingenuously or rely wholly on Stoklassa (whose words with respect to TPM were largely refuted by Jim_Raynor) doesn't change that truth. The dialogue may be substandard, the acting may be wooden, and the films may rely too much on CGI, but all you've done is cite examples of where characters failed or where there was potential for failure. If that constitutes a bad film, then you should take heart: the prequels are in good company, as they sit alongside The Dark Knight and the original films, which each have their share of immense PIS.

Given that the prequels were marketed as a tragedy, I fail to see how the failure of the Jedi to stop the Sith is indicative of a poor story.

Nephthys
Lol, Jim_Raynor just whined for a hundred pages and offered up reaching arguments.

Herbert Spencer
Nephthys
Lol, Jim_Raynor just whined for a hundred pages and offered up reaching arguments.

And Stoklassa bitched for 3+ hours, spending an absurd amount of time, effort, and money on editing, to criticize a movie made by a man whose success he will never equal. Criticisms that Raynor largely proved to be as dishonest as Lucien's reproach that the Jedi should be burned in effigy for not trusting Dooku while at the same time arguing Anakin should be similarly condemned for trusting Palpatine.

We can sit and play armchair referee between these two all day and each of us can take turns and vilify the opposition. As far as I know, I'm the only one of the three of us (Lucien, you, and myself) who has read all of Raynor's rebuttal and watched all of Stoklassa's reviews. At the end of the day, the prequels have endured Stoklassa's rants and continue to make major bank. If that's not a victory for Lucas, I don't know what is.

Or we can actually discuss the content honestly.

Nephthys
Well no, Stoklassa used actual analysis and a knowledge of film to criticise the movies, whereas Raynor just handwaves his criticism. While he makes some good points, not that I can recall any, most of what I read wasn't supported by the text and he had to reach for things that weren't there.

A good example I can think of is when he argues that Amidala's character has a lot of pathos because she is seen staring out of a window. According to Raynor this shows her anquish at the plight of her people and how she failed them. However, the wooden acting doesn't support this assertion. Portman just doesn't bring that across to the viewer and as Stoklassa points out, at no point do we see any suffering Naboo citizens. So how can these non-existant peoples plight resonate in any way with the audience and how can the audience be expected to recognise Amidala feeling pain for said non-existant people?

Also if monetary success were evidence of worth then Micheal Bay is a fantastic director and Stephanie Meyer is a better writer than Stover and Luceno combined. Stoklassa's reviews are much more entertaining than the movies he's reviewing and are critically and publically well-recieved.

Of course saying that, I agree that simply providing his review as evidence for why the Prequels suck isn't too impressive. I just don't think that Raynor 'countered' RedLetterMedia at all.

Edit: I remember now. I think it was his explanation of Qui-Gon Jinns character that I quite liked. But then I do like Qui-Gon. Liam Neeson is so manly. God I would.

Lord Lucien
The prequels don't suddenly increase in quality just because you can think of flaws in other movies.


The prequels were made knowing they'd end in a tragic story, but what makes them a poor story isn't the genre, foregone conclusion, or intention behind their creation. It's the poorly written characters, incoherent structuring, careless pacing and genuinely unlikeable and unrelatable screen presences. "Bad Story" is a generalized term. 300 was full of CGI, but it was enjoyable. Kung Pow lacked any semblance of sense, but it was enjoyable. The Dark Knight was overly convoluted, but was enjoyable. Kind Hearts & Coronets was black and white and the romantic subplot was exaggerated, but it was enjoyable. Glengarry Glen Ross had a very boring story, and what was happening in the world around the characters wasn't too interesting--but the characters themselves were. I return to these and so many other films not because of their stellar 'story' or their amazing soundtrack, or the idea behind them... I return to them because the characters in the films keep me entertained. Either through humour, horror, drama, thrill, insight, intrigue, or just an all around great performance by the actor.


What makes a movie enjoyable is first and foremost the characters. They drive a story. They connect with the audience. The prequels didn't have characters, they had moving props. The prequels are not enjoyable because the characters are not enjoyable. It's the plot discrepancies, it's not the CGI, it's not Lucas' intentions. It's not the characters--or rather, lack thereof.

My nitpicks at the stupid plot or story f*ck up are just that: nerdy nitpicks. My real dislike for the movies is that^.

ares834
^ Indeed.

Which is why I never liked RLM's reviews as almost all he does is nitpick. But when it comes to evaluting the chracters he uses a cheap cop out.

Lord Lucien
I actually don't understand how you guys can take the RLM reviews so seriously, as if they're some legitimate petition or report compiled by a bunch of scientists. They're fanboy nitpicks paired with cinematic criticism delivered through a specific form of comedy. That Raynor guy either has a very unfortunate disorder, or his ego is so threatened by the criticism of his choice of fandom that it feels compelled to actually compose a serious essay.


The only way to fight comedy is by being offended, it seems.

Herbert Spencer
Did you not defer one poster to RLM's reviews for valid criticisms against the prequels? And now they're just to be viewed for comedic purposes?

Raynor addressed this as well. You can either regard those reviews as valid criticism dressed in comedy, in which case Raynor's rebuttal was not inappropriate, or you can regard it as comedy dressed with invalid criticism, in which case Raynor's response was inappropriate and you shouldn't cite the videos as a valid source of criticism.

Which is it?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Did you not defer one poster to RLM's reviews for valid criticisms against the prequels? And now they're just to be viewed for comedic purposes?

Raynor addressed this as well. You can either regard those reviews as valid criticism dressed in comedy, in which case Raynor's rebuttal was not inappropriate, or you can regard it as comedy dressed with invalid criticism, in which case Raynor's response was inappropriate and you shouldn't cite the videos as a valid source of criticism.

Which is it? Let me first unload that question.

There we go. I regard them as valid criticism (against both story and film making) dressed in comedy.


And actually, if you find for me a comprehensive list of criticisms other than RLM--like in bullet point--then I'll refer anyone from now on to that. I agree with their criticisms on top of enjoying their delivery, but I understand that that method isn't for everybody. When I enter in to a relevant discussion, I find it would save time (and prevent me looking like a plagiarizer) if I just refer the other person to something far more comprehensive than what I could put together

RE: Blaxican
You should know better than to criticize the PT in this new member whom we have never met before's presence.

You've brought this smash upon yourself.

Herbert Spencer
I never claimed that they did. I was simply (and smugly, yes) pointing out that the harsh standards/nitpicks you apply to the prequels can be easily applied elsewhere with devastating effect. I'm American and it pleases me to know that I can bring utter ruin to everything you love. no expression



I'm not saying you have to enjoy the prequels or any other film for that matter. What is enjoyable is a completely subjective conclusion and it differs from person to person. Critics panned the prequels; they didn't enjoy them. Yet each film was a monumental box office success, indicating plenty of people did. Who's right, who's wrong? Neither of them are in this respect because no one has the authority to license what is enjoyable and what is not.

\

And as I explained, your list of nitpicks was completely disingenuous. Which alludes to what Raynor explained vividly in his essay and what Ares has mentioned succinctly: the nitpicks espoused by you and RLM can be largely answered away.

I couldn't care less if you hate the prequels and masturbate to Batman or vice versa; that's your decision based on your choice and who am I to tell you otherwise? What I do care about is that when one criticizes a narrative, one's complaints or nitpicks should be a little more honest.

RE: Blaxican
How are his nitpicks "disingenuous"?

From what I can see, they are all valid examples of bad writing within the movies.

I get the impression that you're implying that he dislikes the movies purely for the sake of disliking them.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There we go. I regard them as valid criticism (against both story and film making) dressed in comedy.

As do I, in that I honestly believe Stoklassa was trying to genuinely criticize the films and be funny at the same time.

But the payoff there is that Raynor's refutation is hardly inappropriate. If the videos contain valid criticism, then there is a serious/mature element to them beyond the pizza rolls and sociopaths, which means Raynor can hardly be blamed for responding, even as thoroughly as he did.

Herbert Spencer
RE: Blaxican
How are his nitpicks "disingenuous"?

For one example, Lucien condemns Anakin for trusting one Sith (Palpatine) and in turn condemns the Council for not trusting another Sith (Dooku), without any explanation as to why each acted stupidly. The fact that Sidious was deceitful and Dooku was not (in this case) doesn't change the basis of the decision. What reason would they have had to trust him? Furthermore, why shouldn't Anakin have trusted Sidious?

Lord Lucien
Ah geez, we're slicing up the posts. This is gonna get untidy.





Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I never claimed that they did. I was simply (and smugly, yes) pointing out that the harsh standards/nitpicks you apply to the prequels can be easily applied elsewhere with devastating effect. I'm American and it pleases me to know that I can bring utter ruin to everything you love. no expression I don't love anything. Any new film/show/music/play/game I partake in is typically done with detached indifference. I judge everything, but so far I've not seen anything that can be torn apart so wholly as the prequels can.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I'm not saying you have to enjoy the prequels or any other film for that matter. What is enjoyable is a completely subjective conclusion and it differs from person to person. Critics panned the prequels; they didn't enjoy them. Yet each film was a monumental box office success, indicating plenty of people did. Who's right, who's wrong? Neither of them are in this respect because no one has the authority to license what is enjoyable and what is not.Expectations and anticipation are simple ways to draw a crowd. The Original Trilogy provided everything the Prequels needed to draw in the bucks. Marketing towards children and millions of fans (of the OT) is box office gold.


Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
And as I explained, your list of nitpicks was completely disingenuous. Which alludes to what Raynor explained vividly in his essay and what Ares has mentioned succinctly: the nitpicks espoused by you and RLM can be largely answered away. I care about being entertained, and there's nothing entertaining about reading a 117-page serious rebuttal to a comedic review. Which is probably why I never bothered past the first 10. I have no idea what Raynor has said because his delivery was boring.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I couldn't care less if you hate the prequels and masturbate to Batman or vice versa; that's your decision based on your choice and who am I to tell you otherwise? What I do care about is that when one criticizes a narrative, one's complaints or nitpicks should be a little more honest. Which of my nitpicks was dishonest?


Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
For one example, Lucien condemns Anakin for trusting one Sith (Palpatine) and in turn condemns the Council for not trusting another Sith (Dooku), without any explanation as to why each acted stupidly. The fact that Sidious was deceitful and Dooku was not (in this case) doesn't change the basis of the decision. What reason would they have had to trust him? Furthermore, why shouldn't Anakin have trusted Sidious? It's the complete lack of explanation for any of these decisions. You and I can make sense of them. Easily. I just don't like that the movie never does.

Arhael
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I thought the future's always in motion? Why can't there have been a future without Anakin that still resulted in Palpatine's death before he could strike? It doesn't matter, because Qui-Gon's supposed "Will of the Force" caused years of suffering.


No, it wasn't Qui-Gon's "will of the Force" that caused years of suffering, it was fault of the Sith. Galaxy was in crisis long before Qui-Gon.

The "Will of the Force" had to rely on a Sith-experiment in biology to eventually stop Palpatine? Why didn't the "Will of the Force" simply lead the Jedi to Palpatine and reveal him as Sith?


Unfortunately, life is not that simple. There is always good and bad balancing one way or another. The war is part of sentinel life and it is inevitable no matter what. Old republic reigned for 25000 years but nothing can exist infinitely. There are countless possibilities and, unfortunately, Anakin's downfall is what happened.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
For one example, Lucien condemns Anakin for trusting one Sith (Palpatine) and in turn condemns the Council for not trusting another Sith (Dooku), without any explanation as to why each acted stupidly. The fact that Sidious was deceitful and Dooku was not (in this case) doesn't change the basis of the decision. What reason would they have had to trust him? Furthermore, why shouldn't Anakin have trusted Sidious? For one, you're misrepresenting his argument here. I'll address that later, if need be.

Most importantly, how does this show his statements to be "disingenuous"? If it's not a valid criticism than it's not, that doesn't make it "disingenuous" though. "disingenuous" implies an ulterior motive. So how do his criticisms imply that he has an ulterior motive?

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by Arhael
No, it wasn't Qui-Gon's "will of the Force" that caused years of suffering, it was fault of the Sith. Galaxy was in crisis long before Qui-Gon.



Unfortunately, life is not that simple. There is always good and bad balancing one way or another. The war is part of sentinel life and it is inevitable no matter what. Old republic reigned for 25000 years but nothing can exist infinitely. There are countless possibilities and, unfortunately, Anakin's downfall is what happened. "Well bad shit was gonna go down regardless of what happened" really doesn't excuse the stupidity of the characters.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
No, it wasn't Qui-Gon's "will of the Force" that caused years of suffering, it was fault of the Sith. Galaxy was in crisis long before Qui-Gon. The films need to actually show us that. So far it's only the EU does that.



Originally posted by Arhael
Unfortunately, life is not that simple. There is always good and bad balancing one way or another. The war is part of sentinel life and it is inevitable no matter what. Old republic reigned for 25000 years but nothing can exist infinitely. There are countless possibilities and, unfortunately, Anakin's downfall is what happened. Yes and unfortunately your explanation is only your explanation. I'm more concerned about what the movies don't explain.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
For one example, Lucien condemns Anakin for trusting one Sith (Palpatine) and in turn condemns the Council for not trusting another Sith (Dooku), without any explanation as to why each acted stupidly. The fact that Sidious was deceitful and Dooku was not (in this case) doesn't change the basis of the decision. What reason would they have had to trust him? Furthermore, why shouldn't Anakin have trusted Sidious?

I doubt that its a matter of trust. Like Lucien said, they never say that he might be lying, they never bring up any reason not to act on Dooku's words. The reason its dumb is that theres no indication they do anything about it. Even if they disbelieved him thats no excuse to just dismiss this information out of hand. They should have done something. Especially since they know someones manipulating the war behind the scenes.

That is, if I'm understanding the discussion correctly.

Lord Lucien
You are. The movies suck at exposition. Take AotC, a point that even RLM glosses by:


The Kaminoans tell Obi-Wan that a Jedi Master placed an order for a clone army 10 years ago, right around the same time that Master was killed. Looking past the totally nonchalant attitude Yoda and Mace have towards news of an army of clones, the movie doesn't tell us anything else.


Who was this Sifo Dyas?
Why did he place the order?
What are the circumstances of his death?
Why don't Yoda and Mace show any signs of concern?


No answers are given. That's just one example. It's one thing to hypothesize your own answers, but it's something else entirely when the movie doesn't have any.

Nephthys
Yeah. The prequels might have kind of a nice plot I guess, but they're just presented really badly and don't make a lot of sense.

Also I'm peeved my post was ignored. wtfawe

In closing: Really I think Raynor just missed the point a bit. Raynor primarily attempts to counter-argue the things the RLM review said were unclear or illogical, but he doesn't really engage with how the Phantom Menace just isn't a very good movie, regardless of the logic involved.

Also this: 'One guy says Qui-Gon is "stoic," and then acts as if he's struggling to think of anything else. The girl pretends that she doesn't remember who Qui-Gon is, despite how much of TPM is spent following him. Yeah, right. More of Stoklasa's amateur actors (oops, I mean friends and regular people) put on a show to supposedly support his claim that Qui-Gon is a nothing, a blank slate of a character who can't be described in any way.'

Thats just annoying. Argue his points, don't attack him and accuse him of lying or faking evidence you douche. Especially given the fact that one of the people used in that test is his co-host for Half in the Bag, so it actually was his friends.

Lord Lucien
Can definitely see the gripes with RLM's videos specifically. But I can't see how his points as a whole don't make sense. Perhaps Raynor and Herbert just don't... I don't know, "feel" the same way about the characters and the flow of the movies, but the plot holes and inconsistencies seem quite clear. There are probably a lot of people who genuinely feel Neeson's performance was great, or that Kenobi and Anakin seemed like really close friend, or that Portman's performance was wonderful.

But I just don't know how they get around the pitfalls in the story.



EDIT: That Raynor quote presumes those actor-friends of Stoklasa were scripted. If he could prove they were...

Herbert Spencer
Please do.



Disingenuous means to be insincere, pretending to know less about a subject than one really does. This was Lucien's initial criticism:



If Lucien watched the films (and I assume he did), he would know that prior to his confession that he was a Sith Lord, Palpatine never gave Anakin a single reason to mistrust him. Furthermore, Palpatine's knowledge of the Sith in any capacity was never known to Anakin until after Dooku was killed. Lastly, Palpatine's urging of Anakin to leave Obi-Wan was somewhat rational: Kenobi was unconscious and would have been literal dead weight, an impediment to their escape.







No, the situation is addressed at the end of the film.

LmKu72Aabas

At the 13:04 mark, Obi-Wan asks Mace and Yoda about the possible validity to Dooku's claim. Yoda responds that the Count has become an agent of the dark side and that the facilitation of deceit is his primary aim now. This assessment is accurate; Dooku lied to Kenobi about the presence of Jango Fett on Geonosis, withheld information about his own involvement with the Sith, cooperated with Gunray in the assassination attempts on Padme, and concealed his militaristic aims from the Republic and galaxy at large. In short, Dooku lied about who he was the entire film, why should the Jedi have believed him?

Lucien has provided no basis as to why the Jedi should have automatically trusted a traitor and secessionist. The decision wasn't arbitrary.



They don't know that the Sin the films until Revenge of the Sith, whereupon they take active steps to oust Palpatine, which is something else Lucien condemns them for.

Herbert Spencer
Which one?



Respectfully, I think you missed the point with regards to Raynor. He's not trying to argue that TPM is a good film or that people should like it. He takes umbrage with RLM's criticisms of the plot and narrative. Whether or not something artistic is 'good' (in terms of quality), be it a film or villain, is completely subjective. Neither Raynor nor RLM are authorities in that respect, because there is no objective standard that a piece of art can be held to in order to determine whether or not it's "good" or "entertaining."

Nephthys
No, its pretty damn obvious that someone manipulated them into fighting by creating the clone army for the Jedi beforehand using Jango Fett as a DNA source. Who works for Dooku. Considering this its utterly transparant that the Sith were behind it.

And tbh I had forgotten that scene existed. I still think the Jedi were morons to only agree to 'keep a closer eye on the senate.' I still maintain they should have looked into it more than that, if only to eliminate the posibility.

Herbert Spencer
Fett is a bounty hunter and apparently one of high repute. He has no allegiance to anyone other than the highest bidder; the fact that he works for Dooku does not point to the Sith at all given his profession as a mercenary. And the fact that the Kaminoans identified the Jedi who placed the order as Sifo-Dyas and not Dooku eliminates any and all direct link between Dooku and the clones as far as the movie is concerned.



I gather you and Lucien find it stupid that the Jedi didn't do X and I'm not trying to change your mind. That doesn't make them stupid unless they have ample reason to do X and then ignore it, which is what I ask for. When did the Jedi ignore what they had reason not to?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Which one?

The one that is directly after your post to me on the last page. I said Raynor was a dum dum head and you responded and I responded back.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Respectfully, I think you missed the point with regards to Raynor. He's not trying to argue that TPM is a good film or that people should like it. He takes umbrage with RLM's criticisms of the plot and narrative. Whether or not something artistic is 'good' (in terms of quality), be it a film or villain, is completely subjective. Neither Raynor nor RLM are authorities in that respect, because there is no objective standard that a piece of art can be held to in order to determine whether or not it's "good" or "entertaining."

Oh please. Quit hiding behind the subjectivity angle. The Phantom Menace is an awful movie and both Raynor and RLM actually give arguments as to why they agree or disagree with that statement. What we're discussing is whether their arguments had merit or not. If you want to claim that no-one can be right then why are you even talking about this? You claimed that Stoklassa's arguments 'with respect to TPM were largely refuted by Jim_Raynor', well according to you now, you're wrong, because logic is also subjective. So why did you even bring it up in the first place? Whats the point of even having this conversation if you're just going to say that no-one can ever be right anyway?

Herbert Spencer
The idea that you or Stoklassa or Lucien or any of us, including myself, is in a position to objectively determine what is or is not a "good" piece of art requires a truly profound level of arrogance that is revolting.

Blaxican and I spoke to you directly on this subject regarding the Joker and Palpatine and it applies here.



No, Raynor's rebuttal deals strictly with the accusation that the film's plot is nonsensical. His entire response begins with a disclaimer that he is not trying to argue that TPM is an objectively good film, because he knows that's not his call to make.

You could learn something from that humility.



Because this discussion wasn't about the overall quality of the film, but whether or not the narrative made sense. There is a tremendous distinction between the two.



Stoklassa's arguments with respect to the plot were largely refuted, not that Raynor proved TPM was a great film.



Because the coherence and stability of the narrative and whether or not the film was good/entertaining/pleasant/enjoyable are two separate issues. One can be objectively discussed and the other cannot. At the end of the day, critics reviled the prequels but each film was a blockbuster success indicating that someone enjoyed it. If the films were objectively bad and without any entertainment value, it would stand to reason they wouldn't have been tremendous successes.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Fett is a bounty hunter and apparently one of high repute. He has no allegiance to anyone other than the highest bidder; the fact that he works for Dooku does not point to the Sith at all given his profession as a mercenary. And the fact that the Kaminoans identified the Jedi who placed the order as Sifo-Dyas and not Dooku eliminates any and all direct link between Dooku and the clones as far as the movie is concerned.

So its just complete co-incidence that as soon as Kenobi shows up Jango tries to kill him and then immediately runs off to Dooku? And that it might not directly point to Dooku doesn't mean that it doesn't point to someone manipulating the war. That the clone army was created in the first place, convieniently by a Jedi whose been dead for 10 years for the Jedi and the Republic without either of their knowledge, is proof of that.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I gather you and Lucien find it stupid that the Jedi didn't do X and I'm not trying to change your mind. That doesn't make them stupid unless they have ample reason to do X and then ignore it, which is what I ask for. When did the Jedi ignore what they had reason not to?

The point we're discussing right now. I maintain that their reasons for not extending any amount of effort into looking into it are weak and stupid, considering the situation they were in.

Herbert Spencer
Actually, as soon as Kenobi shows up, Jango tries to flee. It's Kenobi who forces the confrontation. Regardless, Fett's presence on Geonosis doesn't indicate an obvious connection between the Count and clones. If he were a mere cloning technician or someone with questionable allegiances, I'd understand the intense scrutiny and suspicion. But as it stands, he's a mercenary who conducted himself in a mercenary manner: employed first to satisfy the interests of the Republic/Jedi by serving as the clone template and employed second by an enemy agent. That's how mercenaries operate.



Such assumptions need to be grounded in reality. Why would the Jedi randomly assume that the conflict is being manipulated? What reason would they have?



This proves that the clone army was ordered by a Jedi Master prior to his death without the authorization of the Council. Where is the evidence of manipulation by the Sith?



They vowed to keep an eye on the Senate, indicating they did look into it. Their mistrust of Palpatine and the Senate in ROTS is further proof.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The idea that you or Stoklassa or Lucien or any of us, including myself, is in a position to objectively determine what is or is not a "good" piece of art requires a truly profound level of arrogance that is revolting.

Blaxican and I spoke to you directly on this subject regarding the Joker and Palpatine and it applies here.

I don't think so. Its the entire basis behind being a critic. I mean, seriously? You have a problem with anyone thinking they can say whats good or not, no matter how qualified or how knowledgable they are on the subject? Besides I never said it was objective;y bad.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, Raynor's rebuttal deals strictly with the accusation that the film's plot is nonsensical. His entire response begins with a disclaimer that he is not trying to argue that TPM is an objectively good film, because he knows that's not his call to make.

You could learn something from that humility.

no expression

Ok. I'm just going to write this off as a pet peeve of yours. Because I know that you did not just try to lecture me about humility.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Because this discussion wasn't about the overall quality of the film, but whether or not the narrative made sense. There is a tremendous distinction between the two.

Whether or not the narrative made sense is subjective. How arrogant of Raynor to think he can decide whether it is or not, right?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Stoklassa's arguments with respect to the plot were largely refuted, not that Raynor proved TPM was a great film.

Whether or not Stoklassa's arguments were refuted are subjective.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Because the coherence and stability of the narrative and whether or not the film was good/entertaining/pleasant/enjoyable are two separate issues. One can be objectively discussed and the other cannot. At the end of the day, critics reviled the prequels but each film was a blockbuster success indicating that someone enjoyed it. If the films were objectively bad and without any entertainment value, it would stand to reason they wouldn't have been tremendous successes.

As I said before if monetary success idicated worth then macheal Bay is a brillaint director and Stephanie Meyer is a better writer than Stover and Luceno combined. And if you had responded when I said that I woudn't have had to type it out again.

Herbert Spencer
Anyone can be a critic by virtue of their ability to criticize. Are you telling me if I fetch a bad review of The Dark Knight, then I have objectively determined that it is a bad film?



No, I have no problem with anyone saying whether or not they liked a film, disliked a film, thought it was good, thought it was bad, didn't care either way. As I explained to Lucien exhaustively, I am not in a position to tell you that the prequels were good or bad films, which is why I don't bother discussing that subjective aspect.

What I do have a problem with is people telling other people that 'X' is bad or good, end of discussion, and if you disagree then you're wrong.

Unless, of course, they're being facetious.



I did. Assuming that you or anyone else is "qualified" enough to tell you that a piece of art is inarguably, objectively bad is a profoundly arrogant and baseless claim. Unless, again, you're being facetious.



Raynor provided reasons within the films to explain supposed holes in the narrative and plot, as I have done here. That can be objectively discussed, even if you still dislike the reasons.



Certainly you can still agree with Stoklassa's thrust that the plotholes remain. Raynor and myself provided reasons within the film, you don't have to accept or like them.



And as I said before, that monetary success derives from people enjoying the fvcking product.

Nephthys
Well I'm off to play TOR, so I'll reply later or tomorrow. But before I go I'll note that the flaw in that last point is that in regards to movies, you can only tell if you've enjoyed it after you've already bought the ticket. Which in this case alot of people did because it was Star Wars, rather than them actually enjoying it. The level of hate the movie gets from the fandom should clue you in to that.

Herbert Spencer
Let's return this discussion to its original parameters: the narrative and plotholes. Because I'm about as interested in arguing the subjective aspects as I am in trying to convince DS that the Codex is right.



(I'm referring largely to TPM's 3D release, but noted.)

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
If Lucien watched the films (and I assume he did), he would know that prior to his confession that he was a Sith Lord, Palpatine never gave Anakin a single reason to mistrust him. Furthermore, Palpatine's knowledge of the Sith in any capacity was never known to Anakin until after Dooku was killed. Lastly, Palpatine's urging of Anakin to leave Obi-Wan was somewhat rational: Kenobi was unconscious and would have been literal dead weight, an impediment to their escape. Two things before I hit the rest:


You do know that the phony exchanges I wrote out were nothing short of glib remarks, right? I'm fully aware of the film's chronology.


And Anakin continuing to not only trust, but believe Palpatine's claims after the man encouraged him to execute someone and urged him to leave his best friend to die, is retarded. "More security droids" is a pretty poor excuse as to why they should leave a stunned Jedi Master (who himself just practically walked through said droids) and Anakin's best friend to die. And then, after those very cold and shocking instances, he starts spouting off Sith legends.

Not a single alarm went off in Anakin's head? Not a klaxon, not a siren, not a shout, not even a mental Clippit notifying him of something odd?


Stupid, stupid character.

DARTH POWER
^ Lol I think the "Now, Kill him... DO IT!" in a pretty evil, creepy voice would have alerted anyone.

Lets face it, if any of the other Jedi heard the conversations Anakin and Palpatine were having they would have known Palpatine's evil and working for the Sith in some shape or form.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Lucien has provided no basis as to why the Jedi should have automatically trusted a traitor and secessionist. The decision wasn't arbitrary.


They don't know that the Sin the films until Revenge of the Sith, whereupon they take active steps to oust Palpatine, which is something else Lucien condemns them for. Automatically? Hellz no. Keep it in mind? Yeah.



So three years later, when they start to feel, as Mace puts, that "the Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor", no one thought that maybe they should take some serious steps to getting to the bottom of this? Even if Palpatine wasn't the Sith, and he was just being controlled by it, 'better safe than sorry' doesn't cross their minds? 'He's one we could scratch off the list of subjects' (he should be #1 on the list, frankly if the Dark Side "surrounds him"wink. Keep Dooku's remark on the backburner, and when it comes to figuring out the whole "ever-more-powerful leader of the Republic is surrounded by the Dark Side"... a little midichlorian test wouldn't hurt.


Even on Mas Amedda. Also--and this one is more of a character deficieny than plot hole--remember the cringeworthy scene in AotC when the two of them manipulated Jar Jar in to giving the Chancellor 'emergency powers'? Not one person, not one Jedi noticed the deceptive tones in their exchange? A deception which lead to only the first of many 'emergency powers' being put in to the hands of one man? No alarms went off?



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Fett is a bounty hunter and apparently one of high repute. He has no allegiance to anyone other than the highest bidder; the fact that he works for Dooku does not point to the Sith at all given his profession as a mercenary. And the fact that the Kaminoans identified the Jedi who placed the order as Sifo-Dyas and not Dooku eliminates any and all direct link between Dooku and the clones as far as the movie is concerned.You're darn right it does. But what the mention of Sifo Dyas doesn't do is eliminate the involvement of Sifo Dyas. The movie introduces him, tells us what he did, and tells us he's dead. The movie doesn't tell us who he is, why he did it, or how he died. That's a whopper of a hole to leave unfilled. Shortly after, Mace and Yoda fail to react with any emotion or surprise to the news that one of their own has created an army of clones. That's character deficiency.


Sifo Dyas is never mentioned again beyond that scene. That's bad writing.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I gather you and Lucien find it stupid that the Jedi didn't do X and I'm not trying to change your mind. That doesn't make them stupid unless they have ample reason to do X and then ignore it, which is what I ask for. When did the Jedi ignore what they had reason not to? They ignored what I just said about Sifo Dyas.
They ignored the fact that a suspected Sith Lord was on the loose in TPM (they made a promise of "all their resources" but in reality they did nothing at all).
They ignored the deception of Jar Jar, despite being present to hear it.
They ignored their own advice and permitted Anakin, whom they predicted was headed for "grave danger" to become a Jedi (for absolutely no reason at all).
They then ignored the fact that this boy with the highest midichlorian count dwells on his mother---and did nothing to set his dwellings to ease.
They (and by 'they' I mean Obi-Wan specifically) totally and utterly failed to see the danger in Anakin "thinking about Padme every day since they last met" and then pairing him alone with her as her guardian protector.
They also failed to see the horrendous sense in sending a high-profile politician in to hiding from assassination in the most obvious place.
They failed to possess common sense when it came time to confronting Palpatine (at night, all alone, in an isolated chamber, on the enemy's private turf).
They failed to see the advantage of sending both Obi-Wan and his wartime partner and best friend, Anakin, with him to confront the enemy's leader (a slippery, cunning 'monster' who had successfully killed Jedi before and escaped both Obi and Anakin not long ago).
They ignored all the flashing red DANGER signs when they appointed Anakin to spy on Palpatine, a man surrounded by the Dark Side who has been Anakin's friend and confidante for years (Mace even flat out admits to this being DANGERous and says he doesn't trust Anakin, but they go right ahead anyway).


Character deficiencies. Stupid, stupid characters.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Lol I think the "Now, Kill him... DO IT!" in a pretty evil, creepy voice would have alerted anyone.

Lets face it, if any of the other Jedi heard the conversations Anakin and Palpatine were having they would have known Palpatine's evil and working for the Sith in some shape or form. Sadly, that may not be true. Yoda, Mace, I think Ki-Adi, and maybe another was present to hear Palpatine's and Amedda's extremely obvious ploy on Jar Jar. Not an eyebrow was raised that day.

Herbert Spencer
Palpatine provided clever rationalizations for both orders. Dooku was too dangerous to be left alive and Anakin had tapped into the dark side at that point in time. As we know from Return of the Jedi, it's painfully easy to manipulate obscenely angry Force users. There is precedent.

Would it have made more sense to you if Palpatine threw on some lipstick, exchanged his robe for a nurse's costume, and started advocating chaos?

teehehe u see wut i did thur



Indeed, what could have prompted Palpatine to assume that an unconscious Jedi Master might be burdensome when confronted with security droids while stranded on on a heavily damaged enemy ship in the middle of a war zone.

He lacks your tremendous tactical intuition.



And who's to say that Anakin was informed of Dooku's claim about Darth Sidious? What basis has he for these klaxons to blare?



True, it's not as though they'd grown suspicious enough to enact a top secret plan to exploit Anakin's proximity to Palpatine by using him as a spy or to monitor all of his dealings.

That probably would have been a pivotal plot point in the film in addition to being an overall positive addition to the narrative, illustrating that the Jedi were hardly oblivious to Palpatine's machinations, that they detected something more than a little off about the guy, and were prepared to take action short of flying off the handle and arresting him on hearsay and suspicion.



True, and they'd have ample reason to be suspicious. According to the film, Palpatine was delaying the vote for the Military Creation Act as long as possible in an effort to prolong negotiations rather than see a military build up, which is a painfully obvious attempt to orchestrate a military build up.

It's similar to how real world politicians with militant agendas tend to propose cuts to the defense budget. Makes perfect sense, no?



Why is this information necessary? We're told he was a Jedi Master who died almost ten years before and that he issued the order for the Republic. That's like complaining about how we didn't learn how the Rebellion acquired the Death Star plans, therefore A New Hope sucks.



Surprise?

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At 12:46-12:50, Yoda and Mace exchange looks of surprise. What did you expect? Doesn't one of the core Jedi precepts involve divorcing one's self from emotion?

Meanwhile, Luke and Leia, who didn't benefit from decades of Jedi driven stoicism, didn't so much as bat an eye when returning to the carcasses of dead guardians or watching a planet blow up. They reacted more to Kenobi's death, yet we don't write ANH off the table for such glaring inconsistencies.



Why does he need to be?



They tried to bring Fett in for questioning with respect to the origins of the army and the Kaminoan administrators were clearly in the dark about it, since they assumed Sifo-Dyas had the authorization of the Council and Senate, which Mace denies having given. With Fett and Sifo-Dyas both dead, what else was there to follow?



TPM ends with Mace and Yoda discussing the existence of the second Sith. Again, what trail was there to follow and how are you certain that leads weren't investigated?



My own glib remarks aside, the film indicates Palpatine spent the whole beginning of the movie trying to delay the passage of the Military Creation Act and continuing to pursue negotiations with the separatists. Why would they suspect his words to Jar Jar? Did I miss the part where he waved his hand and said "You will give me emergency powers" or is this a conclusion drawn as a member of the audience?



Only if Kenobi's promise to train him without their approval and the existence of the second Sith Lord don't count as reasons. Forgive me for failing to see the wisdom in loosing an impressionable adolescent with the highest midi-chlorian count on record into the galaxy without supervision or training.

Herbert Spencer
On lawless Tatooine where Republic laws weren't recognized? What would you have had them do?



Padme, the career politician who blew Anakin off, dismissing him as an eternal "little boy" when they reunited? He had no reason to conclude she'd stoke the proverbial fires.



The attempt occurred on Coruscant, not Naboo. She was an ambassador who was returned to her sovereign system under the protection of the Jedi, which isn't an illogical move.



What reinforcements would they have drawn on? Palpatine was the commander-in-chief and Windu had no proof of Palpatine's treachery beyond Skywalker's word. He had no reason to conclude manpower was an issue, since he made the attempt with three other Jedi Council Masters.



That might have to do with the fact that Anakin was involved in an even more critical operation with monitoring the Chancellor.



Because Obi-Wan, who knows Anakin better than any of them and whose loyalty is not known to be compromised, vouched for him. Dangerous? Certainly. Risky? Absolutely. But arbitrary? Hardly.

Herbert Spencer
It's a serendipitous moment when I log in at TFN to find that Raynor was posting just today on this issue. I'm going to see if I can lure him here to combat ye RLM stalwarts.

That and I'm wayyyy behind on my Forceborn chapter. erm

Nephthys
Er, I think that might get a little awkward. I mean he obviously put alot of effort into it. I'd be hesitant to criticise it to his face (figuratively speaking).

Herbert Spencer
Well you could be a little gentler?

Arhael
I just watched and enjoyed the film without all those deep thoughts about small details and all made sense. -_-

Lord Lucien
Alright then, here we go.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Palpatine provided clever rationalizations for both orders. Dooku was too dangerous to be left alive and Anakin had tapped into the dark side at that point in time. As we know from Return of the Jedi, it's painfully easy to manipulate obscenely angry Force users. There is precedent.Stop thinking from outside the film, and consider what the character himself is hearing. In an explicitly sinister and creepy voice, he's ordering Anakin to execute someone. Insisting. That's suspicious.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Indeed, what could have prompted Palpatine to assume that an unconscious Jedi Master might be burdensome when confronted with security droids while stranded on on a heavily damaged enemy ship in the middle of a war zone.

He lacks your tremendous tactical intuition. Anakin just single handily defeated Count Dooku and you think some security droids that are literally too stupid to pull the trigger are a threat?

That should not matter, regardless. Once again, Palpatine gives Anakin a very rushed and urgent order to leave his unconscious friend to die without any attempt to help him or even wake him up. That's suspicious.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
And who's to say that Anakin was informed of Dooku's claim about Darth Sidious? What basis has he for these klaxons to blare? What are you talking about? I didn't mention Dooku.

Palpatine is informing Anakin about Sith legends and making unsubtle remarks about death prevention, power and the inability to get ahold of those things as a Jedi. That's suspicious.


Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
True, it's not as though they'd grown suspicious enough to enact a top secret plan to exploit Anakin's proximity to Palpatine by using him as a spy or to monitor all of his dealings.

That probably would have been a pivotal plot point in the film in addition to being an overall positive addition to the narrative, illustrating that the Jedi were hardly oblivious to Palpatine's machinations, that they detected something more than a little off about the guy, and were prepared to take action short of flying off the handle and arresting him on hearsay and suspicion. And the plan they decided on was to send an emotionally troubled young man who looks up to, and admires Palpatine to spy on him?


That's moronic.




Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
True, and they'd have ample reason to be suspicious. According to the film, Palpatine was delaying the vote for the Military Creation Act as long as possible in an effort to prolong negotiations rather than see a military build up, which is a painfully obvious attempt to orchestrate a military build up.

It's similar to how real world politicians with militant agendas tend to propose cuts to the defense budget. Makes perfect sense, no?Glad you agree that their conversation was dripping with manipulative tones. The real world's politicians are irrelevant in this movie's story.




Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Why is this information necessary? We're told he was a Jedi Master who died almost ten years before and that he issued the order for the Republic. That's like complaining about how we didn't learn how the Rebellion acquired the Death Star plans, therefore A New Hope sucks....


Holy shit.


The Clone Army that was created at around the same time as the Battle of Naboo, before the Separatist crisis, is important. It was ordered long before conflict was on the table. It was done on behalf of a Jedi Master who was then shortly afterward killed. You don't introduce a major mystery like that in to your film and then not explain it. This is shitty writing. It's like if Citizen Kane never brought up what 'Rosebud' was again. Or if The Usual Suspects never bothered to tell us what was up with this Keyser Soze mystery character.




Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
At 12:46-12:50, Yoda and Mace exchange looks of surprise. What did you expect? Doesn't one of the core Jedi precepts involve divorcing one's self from emotion?

Meanwhile, Luke and Leia, who didn't benefit from decades of Jedi driven stoicism, didn't so much as bat an eye when returning to the carcasses of dead guardians or watching a planet blow up. They reacted more to Kenobi's death, yet we don't write ANH off the table for such glaring inconsistencies. You know what was great about ANH? They reacted. They did something about what was happening.


You know what the entire Jedi Order did about the fact that one of their own Jedi Master ordered the creation of an army of clones formed from the DNA of a bounty hunter who is likely involved in the attempted assassination of a major political figure who opposes armies? A Jedi Master who was then killed? Ten years before the Military Creation Act?


Absolutely nothing. This is shitty writing.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Why does he need to be? To resolve a major mystery the movie introduced. Why else?



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
They tried to bring Fett in for questioning with respect to the origins of the army and the Kaminoan administrators were clearly in the dark about it, since they assumed Sifo-Dyas had the authorization of the Council and Senate, which Mace denies having given. With Fett and Sifo-Dyas both dead, what else was there to follow?Nothing. Which is the problem. The movies gives us nothing else.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
TPM ends with Mace and Yoda discussing the existence of the second Sith. Again, what trail was there to follow and how are you certain that leads weren't investigated? I'm not. No one is. The movies never show us anything. Which is the problem.




Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
My own glib remarks aside, the film indicates Palpatine spent the whole beginning of the movie trying to delay the passage of the Military Creation Act and continuing to pursue negotiations with the separatists. Why would they suspect his words to Jar Jar? Did I miss the part where he waved his hand and said "You will give me emergency powers" or is this a conclusion drawn as a member of the audience? This one is fairly obvious, but it requires the viewer to have an understanding of manipulative tone. The actors portraying Palpatine and Amedda dipped their dialogue in to a vat of pure deception. This one can actually be attributed to the actors more than Lucas or the other writers. If, say, two characters speak sarcastically when the dialogue would be better suited for something more subtle, you don't ignore their tone just to rationalize on behalf of the film. The actors made a flub and the editors didn't notice. It's a flaw. Unfortunately it's just one of so many in these prequels.


So to recap, it was their blatantly obvious tone of voice more than the words. And it was the fact the Jedi Masters of all people let it sail over their head. This is one is character deficiency.




Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Only if Kenobi's promise to train him without their approval and the existence of the second Sith Lord don't count as reasons. Forgive me for failing to see the wisdom in loosing an impressionable adolescent with the highest midi-chlorian count on record into the galaxy without supervision or training. Don't apologize, because you're right. That's actually a great reason. But wouldn't it have been a lot more credible if someone in the film said that?


Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
On lawless Tatooine where Republic laws weren't recognized? What would you have had them do?Come back and pay Watto to free Shmi, thereby setting the Jedi's highest midichlorian student's mind to rest? Maybe at least try?



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Padme, the career politician who blew Anakin off, dismissing him as an eternal "little boy" when they reunited? He had no reason to conclude she'd stoke the proverbial fires.And he had no reason to conclude that his 19 year old, obsessed Padawan wouldn't?



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The attempt occurred on Coruscant, not Naboo. She was an ambassador who was returned to her sovereign system under the protection of the Jedi, which isn't an illogical move.A major galactic politician has almost been killed twice now. They got a bomb on her ship coming in, and poisonous bugs in her bed. You don't think that after she suddenly disappears the assassin might, just might... think of checking her home world? Either the Jedi Council don't care about Padme enough to try harder, or they're that stupid. Send her to some other, less obvious world. There's thousands of 'em.



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
What reinforcements would they have drawn on? Palpatine was the commander-in-chief and Windu had no proof of Palpatine's treachery beyond Skywalker's word. He had no reason to conclude manpower was an issue, since he made the attempt with three other Jedi Council Masters.How about, like all the Jedi on Coruscant? How about getting Yoda back from Kashyyyk for a bit to deal with a Dark Lord? How about just confronting Palpatine in open space, in public? In the middle of the Senate? Let everyone in the galaxy hear your accusation, and let them all watch Palaptine's reaction. If he unleashes his powers, he's blown. If he runs, he's blown. If he denies, submit him to a midichlorian test. Just make it public, don't deal in secrets in the dead of night in isolated chambers.




Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
That might have to do with the fact that Anakin was involved in an even more critical operation with monitoring the Chancellor. Because that more critical assignment couldn't backfire in any way... *sigh* But I've already talked about that above.

Hey, how about they send Mace with him? Or one of those other guys on the Council who never get any lines? How about just sending more than one Jedi?



Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Because Obi-Wan, who knows Anakin better than any of them and whose loyalty is not known to be compromised, vouched for him. Dangerous? Certainly. Risky? Absolutely. But arbitrary? Hardly. Yeah. I know.


Stupid, stupid character.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Arhael
I just watched and enjoyed the film without all those deep thoughts about small details and all made sense. -_- That's probably the only way it can be enjoyed. It's why children like them so much.

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