Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The Police are so hated in the U.K.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-had-not-anticipated-violence

You can say that again. I wonder... Was it an officer that shot Duggan?

Originally posted by Traction
You can say that again. I wonder... Was it an officer that shot Duggan?

Yup it was.

Originally posted by Traction
You can say that again. I wonder... Was it an officer that shot Duggan?

Looks like it was, but Duggan may not have been armed. Police frame up anyone?

Originally posted by AA+
Looks like it was, but Duggan may not have been armed. Police frame up anyone?

Intentionally shooting one of their own seems like a long way to go.

The police officer was an Arsenal fan.

Originally posted by lord xyz
The police officer was an Arsenal fan.

That explains it all.

The Yid army retaliated

This isn't about hating the police. They burnt two unnmanned police cars and then just destroyed and looted everything in sight- a bus, several shops and people's houses. It wasn't targeted at the police; it was just outright brutal thuggery and selfishness that harmed shopowners and innocent civilians whose houses got trashed.

Absolutely mindless.

Same thing happened in Australia a couple of blocks from where I live.

An Aborigine kid (and known dealer) was walking around Redfern back then full low income and welfare bums. And a couple of police officers asked him "hey what are you doing?"

The kid told them to F off and ran for it. The cops told him to stop as he climbed a fence and impaled himself in front of everyone.

Well the gangstas didn't like that and got all their friends, junkies, dealers and homies together and started the Redfern Riots. Nothing compared to the shit you guys get in LA, London or Paris.....

But in due time it'll get as bad.

Its built up aggression finding a valve to be released. The person who was shot was just the spark.

Its not just thuggery although a lot of thugs are going to make best of the situation.

Live footage here ..

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article13437854.ab

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Its built up aggression finding a valve to be released. The person who was shot was just the spark.

Its not just thuggery although a lot of thugs are going to make best of the situation.

That and looting.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
This isn't about hating the police. They burnt two unnmanned police cars and then just destroyed and looted everything in sight- a bus, several shops and people's houses. It wasn't targeted at the police; it was just outright brutal thuggery and selfishness that harmed shopowners and innocent civilians whose houses got trashed.

Absolutely mindless.

I rarely agree with Ush but do 100% on this occassion. Some people are trying to make out that this is some sort of political statement and backlash of the economic problems in the UK...I've never heard such shit in all my life...The people causing there riots are the same people that would stab you and leave you to die in the street for your wallet and mobile...The looting is purely for self gain and nothing more.

I hear it is kicking off in Birmingham too now, over a hundred miles away. Shops being smashed.

Frankly there is no rhyme or reason behind it now other than "because we can". There's no higher cause and no possible excuse.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I hear it is kicking off in Birmingham too now, over a hundred miles away. Shops being smashed.

Frankly there is no rhyme or reason behind it now other than "because we can". There's no higher cause and no possible excuse.

It's actually about about youth with no jobs and prospects, a corrupt Police force who are interested in driving round giving people 3 points and shooting anyone they want, Deaths in Custody, Smiley Culture etc, etc. An underclass who are constantly shown what they can't have. Grandiose schemes which put my Council tax up. A royal family who actually had a Royal wedding which it now appears helped drive down the economic recovery. It's O.K. for people in places like Essex to pretend they understand London and the endemic corruption in the met, they don't. These young men have nothing, were told they were nothing, because schools removed examinations as the main method for academic success and concentrated on coursework, geared towards girls and basically an exercise in compliance and not intelligence, leaving them emasculated. When people have no stake in Society expect them not to follow Society's rules. How the hell did the cop shoot his own Radio!

No, trying to excuse rampant vandalism and naked theft- which is all this is- with any form of political justification is absolute crap. And saying the police in London shoot anyone they want is absolutely pathetic.

Country's falling apart.

Good.

Mark duggan was a big-time gang member mehbeh.

6Gex_ya4-Oo

Wonder where the political statement or act of protest is in this.

Just a bunch of low class thugs doing low class thuggy things.

It's very hard for me to agree with the "political" statements some are claiming.

It just looks like criminals committing crimes.

I could have predicted this years ago, it was only going to happen sooner or later. Europe's in the piss and America's plunging down too.

That said, it's been a strange few nights. So many stories, and so many different people.

Originally posted by jaden101
6Gex_ya4-Oo

Wonder where the political statement or act of protest is in this.

Now that is pathetic, what a hard man he is robbing that poor kid. I hope someone recognises him and gives the coward a good kicking.

What these thugs are doing is wrong of course, but the society which made them thugs also has something to answer for.

I hope one day the kid recognizes him and gives him a good kicking.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, trying to excuse rampant vandalism and naked theft- which is all this is- with any form of political justification is absolute crap. And saying the police in London shoot anyone they want is absolutely pathetic.

No one is trying to justify it.... It's simple, we created an underclass and let it fester, the underclass are as human as you or I. They have no stake in society and as such no fear of society's sanctions. They hate the establishment and deaths in custody etc. do not help this. The underclass has always rioted and looted in this way around the world, this is no different to most frustration driven 'causeless' examples of social disobediance throughout history. If you really want police firing on twelve year old boys who have never had a male role model, good for you!

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
No one is trying to justify it.... It's simple, we created an underclass and let it fester, the underclass are as human as you or I.

Interesting, though, that this happened in the London rather than New York. I've always though of the UK has have very effective social services.

And yet the majority of this so-called underclass does not act in this way. And many of those being arrested actively travelled to take part in the riots.

Our society, like any other, has issues but none of this is the fault of anyone except the people themselves acting in a mindless and selfish manner, and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Removing personal responsibility from the equation is idiocy. Far beyond any consideration of trying to improve society to stop this, the overall fact here is:

If these people were not complete arseholes, this would not be happening.

That's the bottom line, and that is why they get no sympathy from the overwhelming majority of the people. Every single one of these rioters is acting in an unacceptable way- actively evil- that cannot be excused.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And yet the majority of this so-called underclass does not act in this way. And many of those being arrested actively travelled to take part in the riots.

Our society, like any other, has issues but none of this is the fault of anyone except the people themselves acting in a mindless and selfish manner, and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Removing personal responsibility from the equation is idiocy. Far beyond any consideration of trying to improve society to stop this, the overall fact here is:

If these people were not complete arseholes, this would not be happening.

That's the bottom line, and that is why they get no sympathy from the overwhelming majority of the people. Every single one of these rioters is acting in an unacceptable way- actively evil- that cannot be excused.

It's not an act of EVIL, it's an act of ignorance and violence is the usual response of those who have no voice. Personal responsibility doesn't matter when you have no stake in society. The vast majority of people will not give sympathy, because it's easier for them to think of these acts as EVIL and turn a blind eye to the truth, we have created a world wide system based on inequality and that inequality has reached sufficient numbers within our own nation to threaten the guilded cages the vast majority live in. Let them eat cake!

No, trying to morally disassociate their actions is a mistake. What these people are doing is immoral, it is unjustified, it is selfish, it is harmful... it IS evil by any meaningful application of the word.

Your approach is a moral dead end that will never solve anything; luckily views like yours will never be seriously adopted.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, trying to morally disassociate their actions is a mistake. What these people are doing is immoral, it is unjustified, it is selfish, it is harmful... it IS evil by any meaningful application of the word.

Your approach is a moral dead end that will never solve anything; luckily views like yours will never be seriously adopted.

This approach lacks practical use. If we simplify the cause to "people are evil" then we're saying nothing can be done to prevent later riots.

Why would that be true? There are many, many ways to try and work on why people get into an evil mindset like that that does not involve subscribing to the fairyland scenario that Anarchy UK is living in.

Step one- do something about such crappy parenting.

And I am all for whatever youth engagement programmes exist to engage with communities and give people opportunities (aside from anything else, I work in that sector).

But call a spade a spade. What these people are doing is evil and it should be labelled as such. The idea that they are not accountable for their actions or that it is explained by their social position is gibberish- inside their own social class they are a minority and in any case terms like 'underclass' are generally thrown around by hysterical middle class commentators.

But it is vital that we do not remove personal responsibility from the equation, and all of those people have that. No-one is born evil but for some it may well be too late.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, trying to morally disassociate their actions is a mistake. What these people are doing is immoral, it is unjustified, it is selfish, it is harmful... it IS evil by any meaningful application of the word.

Your approach is a moral dead end that will never solve anything; luckily views like yours will never be seriously adopted.

We'll see, as the disturbances get greater and crime figures go up in this economic downturn- just like the early eighties, hardliners will be looking for ways to moderate this new set of social problems. Wait and see, people will realise that the have nots, need to have some hope and jobs will be created again. Hiding the jobless figures amongst the young by raising the school leaving age whilst at the same time cutting the economic lifeline of EMA for said adolescents is an obvious recipe for disaster. The Police in some ways were lucky this happened despite the hilarious incompetence they have exhibited in handling these situations, as it has garnered their endemically corrupt forces with a lifeline as they are shown as a necessary albeit joke of a thin blue line.

Wait and see it is then. I think you are going to be disappointed.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Wait and see it is then. I think you are going to be disappointed.

Well the more traditional strikes etc amongst the very people society expects to save them- will be starting again in the Autumn. The Last riots I remember well; with the exception of those against the poll tax which was scrapped as a direct result of riots from the 'right thinking majority', lasted 5 years and eventually stopped only because the economic upturn in eighty five meant most people had work again.

As you say, we shall see, I suspect when the first youth is killed the riots will mutate.

The rioters are being especially stubborn because they're organising themselves via BlackBerry texts.

So yeah, they must be really socially downtrodden to be able to afford ****in' BlackBerries.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The rioters are being especially stubborn because they're organising themselves via BlackBerry texts.

So yeah, they must be really socially downtrodden to be able to afford ****in' BlackBerries.

On most South London estates as an example you can get almost any item on the cheap, it will be even easier now *ironic*. Generally socitiety's rules do not apply to places like the Pepys estate. What you don't see on social engineering programmes like Police, camera, action are all the walled estates in the U.K. that 'Dougy' or 'Numpty' will not go on, mainly because he is having to much fun giving three points to a middle class person in Reading town centre for speeding and it's a lot easier than walking into Nelson Mandella House.

Cop shot now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The rioters are being especially stubborn because they're organising themselves via BlackBerry texts.

So yeah, they must be really socially downtrodden to be able to afford ****in' BlackBerries. A black berry costs like 80 bucks.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
A black berry costs like 80 bucks.
It's still a luxury item. No one needs a Blackberry.

Sure, but the idea that being able to afford a blackberry implies not being incredibly financially destitute is... odd.

Blackberries and other "smartphones" are extremely popular in India, for example, which has one of the highest concentrations of poor ****ers in one place in the world. Just google it and you'll see stories like people living in tin cans with no running water who spend most of the day surfing facebook on their smartphone.

Or you can look at many of the ghettoes in America, where kids don't have enough money for school supplies but they're walking around in $120 sneakers. Doesn't mean they're not poor and underprivileged, it just means that they'd rather save and spend money on shoes then they would a warm coat.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Sure, but the idea that being able to afford a blackberry implies not being incredibly financially destitute is... odd.

Blackberries and other "smartphones" are extremely popular in India, for example, which has one of the highest concentrations of poor ****ers in one place in the world. Just google it and you'll see stories like people living in tin cans with no running water who spend most of the day surfing facebook on their smartphone.

Or you can look at many of the ghettoes in America, where kids don't have enough money for school supplies but they're walking around in $120 sneakers. Doesn't mean they're not poor and underprivileged, it just means that they'd rather save and spend money on shoes then they would a warm coat.
I would think that this kind of idiotic misuse of critical funds would be a strike against them being socially downtrodden, unless you believe there's some sinister conspiracy to keep the lower classes stupid and poor.

Well, now that you mention it...

Lol.

This is one of the biggest sense retardant things to happen in a long while. "I dont feel like im being fairly treated so im gonna rob stores and set peoples houses of fire" when did we regress back to the time where violence was the answer to problems?

The people are either morons who are in the chaos for the sake of chaos or those that try to justify their actions by saying its fault of schools, jobs and the government. Even if the majority are the idiots that intentionally failed in school. These people should try to succede in life instead of complaining like a child who isnt getting their way. But no, go and burn down the stores that could have hired you... Im sure that'll help that job thing out.

Im sure the grieving family and hundreds now out of work, without a home and/or injured and the millions of pounds in damages are all fine stepping stones for this idiotic goal/dumbasses who just wanna riot.


I say vote for shooting and gas and anything else painful we can throw around :3

Originally posted by BloodRain
when did we regress back to the time where violence was the answer to problems?

When did we progress past this point? The lower class has been rioting against the upper class since like... the dawn of time. And it's never stopped.

Riots have died down over the decades, with the main riot issues when they happened being about important matters. This isnt lower class and it isnt for any worthy reason, and not one that can be solved in this way. Its senseless to all but a few individuals.

All riots are senseless until the actually succeed. Then they're "revolutions".

Originally posted by BloodRain
Riots have died down over the decades, with the main riot issues when they happened being about important matters.
Do you actually have some data to back this statement up?

Riding my bike along a fairly main street, haven't been sleeping much mind, and we saw a lot of police and fire coming from one of the shops.

Talked to some people, it's so mixed up. Some people are genuinely protesting something, others are just in it for who knows what. Got rocks thrown at me for straying to close to a group of masked chavs!

England 2011 Chav Riots.
Burberry just wasn't enough.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Do you actually have some data to back this statement up?
Nothing that comes to mind. But as I recall at least in the UK each century as been more.. 'civil' with a smaller number of violent outbursts and riots. The 60's 70's were more than the 80's 90's, and little come to mind in 00. That was from my basic history lessons so may be wrong. But I doubt it is.Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
All riots are senseless until the actually succeed. Then they're "revolutions".
Not really. If there was a set reason for that everyone followed then it wouldn't be senseless. Most have no reason to riot here besides wanting to do so.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Nothing that comes to mind. But as I recall at least in the UK each century as been more.. 'civil' with a smaller number of violent outbursts and riots. The 60's 70's were more than the 80's 90's, and little come to mind in 00. That was from my basic history lessons so may be wrong. But I doubt it is.
Not really. If there was a set reason for that everyone followed then it wouldn't be senseless. Most have no reason to riot here besides wanting to do so.

What are you talking about? In the eighties we had anti fascist riots, the miners strikes which were running battles, five years of rioting in places like Brixton, Tottenham, Toxeth, Broadwater Farm, Chapel Town etc. and the decade ended with the poll tax riots despite the recession being over.

Once you stop calling evil acts evil, your moral compass is broken and you will never tackle the issue.

You will note, of course, that I originally labelled their ACTS as evil, not necessarily the people themselves, though I would happily call many of them very much evil people and it is too late for many.

However, what I most certainly was not doing was calling a whole section of the population evil- as aside from anything else, this is a tiny minority, and not just of the population of the country as a whole, but a tiny minority of the section of society to which they belong. Many, many times their number face the exact same economic and social issues but they do NOT riot and selfishly steal and destroy. Their peers are ashamed of them. That is why we cannot blame this on social or political issues. It is these people's failure to be proper people that is the problem, and that is the fault of their parents, their upbringing... but also of themselves.

Now, we can try our best to sort out social and economic issues and that will undoubtedly bring benefits... but it won't stop arseholes being arseholes.

If this had a cause, people would have some sympathy. But mindless destruction of this type, sabotaging the communities to which they belong and bringing suffering to many, many innocents, purely for selfish gain? There is no word for that other than evil.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Once you stop calling evil acts evil, your moral compass is broken and you will never tackle the issue.

You will note, of course, that I originally labelled their ACTS as evil, not necessarily the people themselves, though I would happily call many of them very much evil people and it is too late for many.

However, what I most certainly was not doing was calling a whole section of the population evil- as aside from anything else, this is a tiny minority, and not just of the population of the country as a whole, but a tiny minority of the section of society to which they belong. Many, many times their number face the exact same economic and social issues but they do NOT riot and selfishly steal and destroy. Their peers are ashamed of them. That is why we cannot blame this on social or political issues. It is these people's failure to be proper people that is the problem, and that is the fault of their parents, their upbringing... but also of themselves.

Now, we can try our best to sort out social and economic issues and that will undoubtedly bring benefits... but it won't stop arseholes being arseholes.

If this had a cause, people would have some sympathy. But mindless destruction of this type, sabotaging the communities to which they belong and bringing suffering to many, many innocents? There is no word for that other than evil.

I'd rather use the word broken than evil both for the people and the acts they engaged in; Broken people saw a weakness in their restraint and were let loose. They were made broken by excessive legislation, police brutality, lack of opportunity, lack of male role models, educational misandry and intellectual underdevelopment, now they are broken and the only reason this doesnt happen every day is because they are afraid and locked in and feel like they cant 'get away with it'. We allowed them to be broken, we did this as a society. We need to repair the damage and to do that we need to provide futures and hope.

I think the whole situation is to complicated to explain it in one word like evil, especially as the word itself has a different meaning to different people. If you see evil as being that which goes against, or is outside of society, both in terms of values and actions then you are spot on.

The barbaric animal side of humans is a sad sight, but its there.

My point is that there is a reason for a reaction.

this interview shines a small light at what might be behind it.

BQVrXbdRqO0

You are obsessed with blaming everything other than the people themselves, aren't you? There are plenty of issues that need to be fixed but you really are discounting the biggest cause of all- the people themselves and their selfish attitudes. And as all of the issues you identify (much as I think you exaggerate many) affect many, many people but the vast majority do NOT act like this (indeed, they condemn it), what is different about the people that do? Simple- their own selfish mindset that means they think nothing of committing evil acts. That is down to their parents, their upbringing and, in the end, themselves.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I think the whole situation is to complicated to explain it in one word like evil, especially as the word itself has a different meaning to different people. If you see evil as being that which goes against, or is outside of society, both in terms of values and actions then you are spot on.

The barbaric animal side of humans is a sad sight, but its there.

My point is that there is a reason for a reaction.

this interview shines a small light at what might be behind it.

BQVrXbdRqO0

Again, the 'situation' is not 'explained' by evil.

But the acts they are committing ARE evil, no two ways around it and pussyfooting around that is a waste of time and blinds you to the issues.

We absolutely must not discount the importance of personal responsibility and immoral acts. 'Society is to blame' has always been a mantra for disaster.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is down to their parents, their upbringing and, in the end, themselves.

I would even go further than that and say that it is more down to themselves and it is closer to an age-specific social phenomena than it is the parents. Some generations start silly trends. This is one of the worst generational trends I've seen.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You are obsessed with blaming everything other than the people themselves, aren't you? There are plenty of issues that need to be fixed but you really are discounting the biggest cause of all- the people themselves and their selfish attitudes. And as all of the issues you identify (much as I think you exaggerate many) affect many, many people but the vast majority do NOT act like this (indeed, they condemn it), what is different about the people that do? Simple- their own selfish mindset that means they think nothing of committing evil acts. That is down to their parents, their upbringing and, in the end, themselves.

I will never believe that people are not mainly products of their environment and I do believe that what you see as a selfish attitude; might, instead be construed as the lack of a stake in society and as a result- a lack of shared values with the majority who are not disenfranchised and marginalised.

Many of them will just have one parent and that will be their mother.

A feeling of disengagement from society is, of course, not a good environment to grow up in. But that in no way excuses excuses such evil acts, nor does it explain them because it is not enough, as again I would point to the large number of people in the same situation who do NOT commit such acts as proof of this. There is something wrong with the people involved, and that was NOT done to them by society.

Furthermore, whilst there are genuine economic and political issues, many of those who think that they have no stake in society are simply wrong, and are bent that way by their selfish attitude that gives them a false sense of entitlement. The same sense that makes them want to go out and loot a tv.

By far, the primary issue here is personal responsibility. It must not be ignored as a factor.

It was Obi-Wan and people misinterpreting that line have issues. Goerge Lucas specifically wanted a world of black and white morality, after all.

'All young people in London are evil' is a Sith-style absolute.

"Evil acts must be seen as evil" is not. Some things are just true; the Jedi would want understanding of it, is all.

I agree with Bicnarok and Ushgarak.

This lack of responsibility has lead to people dying now.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
A feeling of disengagement from society is, of course, not a good environment to grow up in. But that in no way excuses excuses such evil acts, nor does it explain them because it is not enough, as again I would point to the large number of people in the same situation who do NOT commit such acts as proof of this. There is something wrong with the people involved, and that was NOT done to them by society.

Furthermore, whilst there are genuine economic and political issues, many of those who think that they have no stake in society are simply wrong, and are bent that way by their selfish attitude that gives them a false sense of entitlement. The same sense that makes them want to go out and loot a tv.

By far, the primary issue here is personal responsibility. It must not be ignored as a factor.

Everyone should be entitled to a future and hope. I would argue they are a product of nothing being done to them by society, because they live outside of what most would perceive as society and we made it like that. We cannot wash our hands of all responsibility. It's the out of sight out of mind mentality which allowed this to happen. People die on those estates all the time through gang violence, drugs etc. It's O.K. as long as the deaths are on walled estates amongst specific groups?

I agree we should not pretend that social issues do not exist.

But I strongly disagree that we bear fault for their behaviour. That is absolutely NOT so. We bear fault that people have to grow up in poverty. We do not bear fault for the tiny proportion of those people who commit acts like this- that's entirely on them. Again- personal responsibility is key. People may not control their own opportunities, but they are accountable for their own actions.

Exactly. Peaceful protest....marching on parliament etc.
Society has due process.
This is nothing like that.

It makes a mockery of our right to protest.

And you can bet your ass that they will now make further legislative changes that will clamp down on ALL our rights over here to gather en masse to protest after this.

It sets a bad precedent that tptb will most likely use to quell any marches/gatherings that they dont want to hear about.

(Like Royal wedding preemptive pre-protest arrests/Bush/Pope visits/economic protests of the past have already arguably shown signs of)

Which is quite ironic since this is what the rioters have done.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
By far, the primary issue here is personal responsibility. It must not be ignored as a factor.

just to understand, you are saying in terms of what may or may not be root causes and motivations behind these actions, it is important to understand the environment and other contextual issues, but ultimately the rioters themselves are responsible for the violence?

If I have that right, I'm sort of curious as to where you draw that line? a person's own sense of entitlement and responsibility are going to be shaped by these contextual factors all through their lives, such that "independent" and "individual" choices truly reflect the sum total of these people's lives. I get not everyone riots, but even if it is simply just a bunch of people engaged in criminal opportunism, how could that not also be a reflection of the environment these people grew up in?

I know this isn't exactly what you were responding to, but it is a hard line to draw, and I'm interested in how you would do so.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I agree we should not pretend that social issues do not exist.

But I strongly disagree that we bear fault for their behaviour. That is absolutely NOT so. We bear fault that people have to grow up in poverty. We do not bear fault for the tiny proportion of those people who commit acts like this- that's entirely on them. Again- personal responsibility is key. People may not control their own opportunities, but they are accountable for their own actions.

Obviously people will be held accountable for there actions, however your state is not theirs so most likely it will just create more hatred for a system they are disenfranchised from and do not share the same values as.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Exactly. Peaceful protest....marching on parliament etc.
Society has due process.
This is nothing like that.

It makes a mockery of our right to protest.

And you can bet your ass that they will now make further legislative changes that will clamp down on ALL our rights over here to gather en masse to protest after this.

It sets a bad precedent that tptb will most likely use to quell any marches/gatherings that they dont want to hear about.

(Like Royal wedding preemptive pre-protest arrests/Bush/Pope visits/economic protests of the past have already arguably shown signs of)

Peaceful protests etc, work when you have a voice, education and a stake in society. When you live on handouts you don't. Second bit, I agree in the words of the clash..


The judge said five to ten but I say double that again
I'm not working for the clampdown
No man born with a living soul
Can be working for the clampdown
Kick over the wall 'cause government's to fall
How can you refuse it?
Let fury have the hour, anger can be power
D'you know that you can use it?


Originally posted by BloodRain
Which is quite ironic since this is what the rioters have done.

No, they never had a stake in it to begin with.

Lots of people on benefits have protested various things over time. Its not just a middle class pursuit.
It costs bugger all to march with a placard.
(Except the cost of the placard, maybe)
Its your right as a voter/citizen, not as a wealth status.

But an organised march all under one cause.
(These guys are just going out to cause mayhem responding to blackberry calls for terror and looting. Its a loose form of organised crime.)

Sometimes they just dont work at all.
Yet the recourse isnt always to start looting and carrying out violence murder.

Nice lyrics.
They had more than an hour though.
And again theres no cause being uniformally presented.
Just a clusterf**k of various gripes (some pretty real) and excuses with no one coming forward with a cohesive argument.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Lots of people on benefits have protested various things over time. Its not just a middle class pursuit.
It costs bugger all to march with a placard.
(Except the cost of the placard, maybe)
Its your right as a voter/citizen, not as a wealth status.

But an organised march all under one cause.
(These guys are just going out to cause mayhem responding to blackberry calls for terror and looting. Its a loose form of organised crime.)

Sometimes they just dont work at all.
Yet the recourse isnt always to start looting and carrying out violence murder.

Nice lyrics.
They had more than an hour though.
And again theres no cause being uniformally presented.
Just a clusterf**k of various gripes (some pretty real) and excuses with no one coming forward with a cohesive argument.

Agreed people on benefits have marched, thing is marches in recent years have got people nowhere. When Thatcher broke the Unions and changed the laws on striking in support of people, basic human rights to protest were diluted by society. I say again the difference this time is not just the poverty, but the lack of enfranchisement. Undoubtedly some are using it for criminal purposes, it could be argued though that in itself is a form of protest again the haves from the have nots.

The causes are not just gripes they are blades cutting to the very heart of our society. I do not just see it as a Lord of the Flies situation.

They call have responsibility, reason and sense. Neither are being used.

And its not some, its the majority that are in it for criminal purposes with hardly any prior to the riot trying to actually change things. There are no justifications, only excuses.

the problem with people today is that they do not seem to want to take responcibility for thier actions. they will blame what they are doin on society or thier upbringing, or the fact that they live in poverty. this is complete bull!!!

the protest in london may have started out as peaceful but it quickly became an excuse for violence nothing more. it lost all meaning when it became violent, and i dont agree with people who say that that is the only way these people can be heard. it isnt. whats more if they believe that then they are completly off their rocker! they are just seen as oppertunistic yobs, going around terrorising comunities!

three people have already died in birmingham as copy cat riots are sweeping the country! what possible justification can there be for this!

I'm really curious here, why do you all see personal responsibility and individual choice as being a product of people's context and circumstance?

Like, behaviour isn't motivated by one or the other, right? Both are entirely dependent on the other, and I really can't imagine where you would draw the line between the two?

there are good videos from the Toronto G20 riots where you see a guy looting a store, another protester tackles the guy and puts the merchandise back.

there are no excuses for looting. even if you try to tie some idiot class warfare narrative to it, the people looting are only taking money from other middle class people who work in those stores, and creating business for insurance companies, and allowing major corporations to make money off the damaging.

This shit reminds me of New Kids Turbo.

Originally posted by inimalist
there are good videos from the Toronto G20 riots where you see a guy looting a store, another protester tackles the guy and puts the merchandise back.

there are no excuses for looting. even if you try to tie some idiot class warfare narrative to it, the people looting are only taking money from other middle class people who work in those stores, and creating business for insurance companies, and allowing major corporations to make money off the damaging.

Exactly.

Of course their are excuses for looting, just not from your perspective or frame of reference.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Of course their are excuses for looting, just not from your perspective or frame of reference.

such as?

But not the murders/assaults.

And remember also, when attempting to argue that its disenfranchised youth vs their neglectors, that its adults too.

Like the one who is a day care teacher for example who was in court today... And the 40 reported adults who firebombed the Nottingham Police station last night. It's greed, violence when they think the cops are too thinly spread, pure and simple for a lot of em.

"When the cats away...." mentality.

Well the cat has now been given permission to deploy rubber bullets and has a water cannon or two at it's diposal now.

Originally posted by inimalist
such as?

The arguments usually go that these guys dont have any stake in society so they dont care if it crashes and burns. if we give them a stake in it then they are literally destroying their own future and their own livelihood and houses etc. I think that's not entirely untrue. It isn't enough to give some of them a stake in it because they are wholly irrational and have been broken. Those have been made that way; not born- made, they have been broken. I have faith in the fact that anyone can be rehabilitated and brought back into society. i saw them in Lewisham on the way home, they weren't thinking. They were truly broken. I don't know how you can recover from that, I do know we have to try it. In reality all that happened was broken people saw a weakness in their restraint and were let loose. They were made by excessive legislation, police brutality, beaurocracy, lack of male role models, educational misandry, intellectual underdevelopment etc. The result is they are broken and the only reason this doesn't happen every day is because they are afraid and locked in and feel like they cant get away with it. Some others were were opportunistic criminals for them their is no excuse. Someone on here said something about low class thugs they are certainly that and it's because we have terrible social mobility in the U.K. they will remain low class thugs and so will their children and their children's children if nothing is done.

What about the family businesses theyve smashed and torched?
And the people killed in their rampages?

Is it right that cause they are "broken" that they should make other people the same way?

I hear you about the over legislation, bureaucracy that we ALL have had to live with.

I say there are maybe 'reasons': But not excuses.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
What about the family businesses theyve smashed and torched?
And the people killed in their rampages?

Is it right that cause they are "broken" that they should make other people the same way?

I hear you about the over legislation, bureaucracy that we ALL have had to live with.

I say there are maybe 'reasons': But not excuses.

Of course they shouldn't make other people the same way, although I'd rather think of it as justification than an excuse. Yes we all have to live with legislation etc, it obviously has far more relevance to you if you have a stake in society. Otherwise it's just another word you don't understand.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
The arguments usually go that these guys dont have any stake in society so they dont care if it crashes and burns. if we give them a stake in it then they are literally destroying their own future and their own livelihood and houses etc. I think that's not entirely untrue. It isn't enough to give some of them a stake in it because they are wholly irrational and have been broken. Those have been made that way; not born- made, they have been broken. I have faith in the fact that anyone can be rehabilitated and brought back into society. i saw them in Lewisham on the way home, they weren't thinking. They were truly broken. I don't know how you can recover from that, I do know we have to try it. In reality all that happened was broken people saw a weakness in their restraint and were let loose. They were made by excessive legislation, police brutality, beaurocracy, lack of male role models, educational misandry, intellectual underdevelopment etc. The result is they are broken and the only reason this doesn't happen every day is because they are afraid and locked in and feel like they cant get away with it. Some others were were opportunistic criminals for them their is no excuse. Someone on here said something about low class thugs they are certainly that and it's because we have terrible social mobility in the U.K. they will remain low class thugs and so will their children and their children's children if nothing is done.

ok, but what justifies their actions?

certainly you don't think simply being disillusioned with the system is justification enough to burn down a police station or rob innocent people, do you?

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but what justifies their actions?

certainly you don't think simply being disillusioned with the system is justification enough to burn down a police station or rob innocent people, do you?

It would not be enough justification for you having lived the life you lead and been exposed to the things you have been exposed to, but for someone growing up on state handouts with no hope of a job, constantly arrested for the colour of their skin, who has seen people they know die in Police custody, has what they can't have rubbed in there faces by a society that ignores them and pretends they don't exist etc. It might be.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
It would not be enough justification for you having lived the life you lead and been exposed to the things you have been exposed to, but for someone growing up on state handouts with no hope of a job, constantly arrested for the colour of their skin, who has seen people they know die in Police custody, has what they can't have rubbed in there faces by a society that ignores them and pretends they don't exist etc. It might be.

so you can't justify it in a meaningful way?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
But not the murders/assaults.

And remember also, when attempting to argue that its disenfranchised youth vs their neglectors, that its adults too.

Like the one who is a day care teacher for example who was in court today... And the 40 reported adults who firebombed the Nottingham Police station last night. It's greed, violence when they think the cops are too thinly spread, pure and simple for a lot of em.

"When the cats away...." mentality.

Well the cat has now been given permission to deploy rubber bullets and has a water cannon or two at it's diposal now.

Yeah, the People who firebombed the Police station hate the Police, having studied at Nottingham University and lived on the Meadows estate, I can tell you many people in Nottingham hate the Police and some have solid reasons. The 'cat' has always had the water cannon option and both it and plastic bullets will not work against people already running away, both are for crowd dispersal.

Originally posted by inimalist
so you can't justify it in a meaningful way?

Not from you perspective no. You would have to be able to see outside your worldview.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Not from you perspective no. You would have to be able to see outside your worldview.

so it is my fault you cant describe the way these actions are justified?

Originally posted by inimalist
so it is my fault you cant describe the way these actions are justified?

I already have described how they are justified to the perpetrators, you cannot have them justified to you as your perspective is so different and your world view entrenched and inflexible.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Of course they shouldn't make other people the same way, although I'd rather think of it as justification than an excuse. Yes we all have to live with legislation etc, it obviously has far more relevance to you if you have a stake in society. Otherwise it's just another word you don't understand.

An awful lot seem to know that that is why weed and drugs possession/usage is ruled against under legislative law, rather than common law for example.
Any of them nicked for possession then would find themselves feeling the relevance, or motoring offences etc etc
(Basically any force-of-law they incur the wrath of that is based on an act, rather than outright law.)

So it seems to be pretty relevant to them still, I'd say.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
An awful lot seem to know that that is why weed and drugs possession/usage is ruled against under legislative law, rather than common law for example.
Any of them nicked for possession then would find themselves feeling the relevance, or motoring offences etc etc
(Basically any force-of-law they incur the wrath of that is based on an act, rather than outright law.)

So it seems to be pretty relevant to them still, I'd say.

Oh, they know what is expected of them, this does not mean they buy into it as a world view, in fact it obviously means the opposite and in the physical sense the weight of the law is relevant in the short term no doubt. Does it stop their world view, hell no, it enforces it. Stop and search for drugs is far more likely if you are black for example.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Yeah, the People who firebombed the Police station hate the Police, having studied at Nottingham University and lived on the Meadows estate, I can tell you many people in Nottingham hate the Police and some have solid reasons. The 'cat' has always had the water cannon option and both it and plastic bullets will not work against people already running away, both are for crowd dispersal.

Well Im sure they hate plenty of people, but do they firebomb them all too in mobs?

Yeah but 6 mice versus the cat might try overpowering the cat, but once the cat starts shooting, THEN the run-away/dispersal is more of a guarantee.

Might be right about the water cannon....
They might only be useful as sentry guarding the stations against like 40 geezers with petrol bombs at a time.
Might come in handy for combating the fire itself too.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
I already have described how they are justified to the perpetrators, you cannot have them justified to you as your perspective is so different and your world view entrenched and inflexible.

no, you have said that there is social inequality, and used that to say "therefore these people are justified in randomly targeting businesses and people".

you haven't described why such inequity justifies violence.

you are mistaking the cause with some sort of moral reasoning. You can say "its not my worldview", but in fact, you haven't described the worldview in which such a moral connection would be justified.

sure, strife + opportunity = violent behaviour, but you haven't explained why that is ok. Why is it ok for those people to attack the businesses of other middle and lower class people? why is it ok for them to attack social infrastructure? not "why did they?", but "why is it ok?" even if you don't think I will agree with it, or that it isn't my worldview (which, sic, anyways, lets not get into that), how do you justify it

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well Im sure they hate plenty of people, but do they firebomb them all too in mobs?

Yeah but 6 mice versus the cat might try overpowering the cat, but once the cat starts shooting, THEN the run-away/dispersal is more of a guarantee.

Might be right about the water cannon....
They might only be useful as sentry guarding the stations against like 40 geezers with petrol bombs at a time.
Might come in handy for combating the fire itself too.

The level of hate towards the establishment and the Police in particular in some areas of society is ingrained and far deeper than the sort of dislike you mean.

Batton rounds are really pretty close range and fired from shotgun like devices, they are not automatics etc. the 6 mice scenario is not realistic as the Police tend to deal with disturbances on mass, one against six would probably inflame a situation firing at them and end up stabbed before he reloaded if they were that much of a threat.

Agreed the cannon might put fires out or as a sentry.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Oh, they know what is expected of them, this does not mean they buy into it as a world view, in fact it obviously means the opposite and in the physical sense the weight of the law is relevant in the short term no doubt. Does it stop their world view, hell no, it enforces it. Stop and search for drugs is far more likely if you are black for example.

Well that I dont agree with.
Thats f**ked up and it does happen.

Youre twice as likely to be stopped as a white guy in a metal tshirt and long hair too, as his short haired suit wearing friend might be also.

So is the black guy in question in the hypothetical scenario wearing gang type clothes with hoodie an cap and listening to "Fu** the police" at full vol blaring from his car with lots of smoke coming out the window, or are we talking Bryant Gumble?

Originally posted by inimalist
no, you have said that there is social inequality, and used that to say "therefore these people are justified in randomly targeting businesses and people".

you haven't described why such inequity justifies violence.

you are mistaking the cause with some sort of moral reasoning. You can say "its not my worldview", but in fact, you haven't described the worldview in which such a moral connection would be justified.

sure, strife + opportunity = violent behaviour, but you haven't explained why that is ok. Why is it ok for those people to attack the businesses of other middle and lower class people? why is it ok for them to attack social infrastructure? not "why did they?", but "why is it ok?" even if you don't think I will agree with it, or that it isn't my worldview (which, sic, anyways, lets not get into that), how do you justify it

yes I have and yes in their minds they are justified as they have no stake in society and these businesses are part of that society. Nobody has said it is O.K. but it is a justification albeit one you can't get your head around.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well that I dont agree with.
Thats f**ked up and it does happen.

Youre twice as likely to be stopped as a white guy in a metal tshirt and long hair too, as his short haired suit wearing friend might be also.

So is the black guy in question in the hypothetical scenario wearing gang type clothes with hoodie an cap and listening to "Fu** the police" at full vol blaring from his car with lots of smoke coming out the window, or are we talking Bryant Gumble?

We are talking any black person in London or Nottingham etc. out and about.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
The level of hate towards the establishment and the Police in particular in some areas of society is ingrained and far deeper than the sort of dislike you mean.

Batton rounds are really pretty close range and fired from shotgun like devices, they are not automatics etc. the 6 mice scenario is not realistic as the Police tend to deal with disturbances on mass, one against six would probably inflame a situation firing at them and end up stabbed before he reloaded if they were that much of a threat.

Agreed the cannon might put fires out or as a sentry.

And who do they call when their family members are battered or raped?

Yet weve seen them get outnumbered/thinned out and pounced on on the news over the last few days....but generally, yeah I agree.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
yes I have and yes in their minds they are justified as they have no stake in society and these businesses are part of that society. Nobody has said it is O.K. but it is a justification albeit one you can't get your head around.

so, in your mind, anything a person feels they are justified in doing is thus justified?

where do you draw a limit on that?

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
We are talking any black person in London or Nottingham etc. out and about.

Well that I thinks a little fu**ed up.

But to be fair, some races are more prone to certain kinds of crime.

The white male of 18-35 is more often than not your guy in the line up, in the case of sexual serial killer patterns, for example.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, in your mind, anything a person feels they are justified in doing is thus justified?

where do you draw a limit on that?

A core point.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, in your mind, anything a person feels they are justified in doing is thus justified?

where do you draw a limit on that?

In my mind? In the mind of the perpetrator who has a very different set of values and view of society, yes anything can be justified and to engage in dialogue with perpetrators of acts of people with no stake in society you have to see their justification and where they are coming from to engage in a dialogue. Usually in these situations people have to be met half way, it is rare the majority's world view does more than contain it. As I have already said twice; much of this is opportunistic and the people engaging in this behaviour have taken advantage of the situation, doesn't mean they are not in their minds justified in their actions. That's the thing about cans of worms, once you open one, you need a larger one to put them back in.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
A core point.

hey, careful, we just might not be able to get our heads around that way of thinking

you know, because we love the police and all

Originally posted by inimalist
hey, careful, we just might not be able to get our heads around that way of thinking

you know, because we love the police and all

Now you're just getting upset.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
In my mind? In the mind of the perpetrator who has a very different set of values and view of society, yes anything can be justified and to engage in dialogue with perpetrators of acts of people with no stake in society you have to see their justification and where they are coming from to engage in a dialogue. Usually in these situations people have to be met half way, it is rare the majority's world view does more than contain it. As I have already said twice; much of this is opportunistic and the people engaging in this behaviour have taken advantage of the situation. That's the thing about cans of worms, once you open one, you need a larger one to put them back in.

ok

so, the people who work for major banks in America think they were justified in the actions they took that caused the major economic failure of the united states banking system. In their minds, they did nothing wrong.

would you extend the same moral protection to them? do you then think the bankers who destroyed the world economy were justified in their actions, simply because in their worldview they were?

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Now your just getting upset.

I'm laughing at you, not upset

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm laughing at you, not upset
If you say so.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok

so, the people who work for major banks in America think they were justified in the actions they took that caused the major economic failure of the united states banking system. In their minds, they did nothing wrong.

would you extend the same moral protection to them? do you then think the bankers who destroyed the world economy were justified in their actions, simply because in their worldview they were?

No, because they have a stake in the society they are stealing from. The are not excluded and disenfranchised. This is what I said earlier.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
No, because they have a stake in the society they are stealing from.

so do the people who are burning down police stations...

or do you mean the "perception" of stake? in which case, you have justified all types of terrorism

Originally posted by inimalist
so do the people who are burning down police stations...

or do you mean the "perception" of stake? in which case, you have justified all types of terrorism

It is debateable how much of a stake they have in society.

Most types of terrorism are justified to the perps and I can usually see how they have come to their world view, whether I share it or not.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
It is debateable how much of a stake they have in society.

Most types of terrorism are justified to the perps.

most types of murder are justified to the perps...

Originally posted by inimalist
most types of murder are justified to the perps...

Yes and again I can usually understand the justification.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Yes and again I can usually understand the justification.

you honestly believe that because a person thinks they are justified they are justified?

so like, if I killed your father, but I thought he deserved it, you would agree I was in the right?

Originally posted by inimalist
you honestly believe that because a person thinks they are justified they are justified?

so like, if I killed your father, but I thought he deserved it, you would agree I was in the right?

They are justified to themselves, yes and the more disenfranchised a person is and the less stake they have in society the more likely they are to take action beyond the standard range of any given society.

Did he deserve it? If he did in your mind, you have already justified it to yourself, now you need to justify it to me. If our world views are completely different you will never be able to justify it to me, if you can get me to see your point of view, then yes, I'd agree from your point of view it might be right. It wouldn't stop me hating you from my point of view though, unless I also agreed he deserved it. I would still wish to see you rehabilitated, that's me though.

Edited for redundancy, since question was answered by time of post.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
you have already justified it to yourself, now you need to justify it to me.

ok, then explain the point of view to me where rioting is justified as morally acceptable. whether I agree with it or not, explain how the action is justified, not why the behaviour occured

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, then explain the point of view to me where rioting is justified as morally acceptable. whether I agree with it or not, explain how the action is justified, not why the behaviour occured

To do so you will have to be less flexible with your morality, can you do that? Without seeing it as outside your range and a different culture and or sociology, you won't.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
To do so you will have to be less flexible with your morality, can you do that? Without seeing it as outside your range and a different culture and or sociology, you won't.

you should stop trying to blame me for your inability to justify riots

Originally posted by inimalist
you should stop trying to blame me for your inability to justify riots

I'm blaming you for not understanding these acts are deviant to your world view and whilst deviant to your world view that does not exclude justification. Norms vary from group to group, what is deviant and unjustifiable to you may be completely normal for a cannibal.

but you have failed to elaborate on what makes these actions justifiable, aside from the fact that social inequity exists...

I'm pretty sure guys like Hitler thought they were doing was right. Thats a personal, greed based justification.

Most of those 'without a state in society' have done jack all to try and get it.

Well we have laws against cannibals in this society.
If cannibals don't like it, they can all go elsewhere as they will have given up there rights to live in the society that they so readlly slap round the face/eat the face of...?

Originally posted by inimalist
but you have failed to elaborate on what makes these actions justifiable, aside from the fact that social inequity exists...

The simple fact they are the norm for this group at this time to them they are justifiable. To you they are deviant. They have violated the norms of the majority social group because in fact they are not part of that societal group when you scratch below the surface. That in itself is a justification of sorts or would be to someone like Merton.

Deaths and violence are not "of sorts".

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
The simple fact they are the norm for this group at this time to them they are justifiable. To you they are deviant. They have violated the norms of the majority social group because in fact they are not part of that societal group when you scratch below the surface. That in itself is a justification of sorts or would be to someone like Merton.

how do you differentiate these individuals from those who collapsed the world economy?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Deaths and violence are not "of sorts".

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well we have laws against cannibals in this society.
If cannibals don't like it, they can all go elsewhere as they will have given up there rights to live in the society that they so readlly slap round the face/eat the face of...?

These people have restricted rights, I could use a multitude of different sociological justifications for mass deviance from the norms under these circumstances. Marx would have called the groups rioting the 'lumpen' proletariat for instance, he would have said the breaking of social contracts through stop and search etc, shooting Duggan and not getting an answer might be enough.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Deaths and violence are not "of sorts".

No, they are deaths and violence.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
These people have restricted rights, I could use a multitude of different sociological justifications for mass deviance from the norms under these circumstances. Marx would have called the groups rioting the 'lumpen' proletariat for instance, he would have said the breaking of social contracts through stop and search etc, shooting Duggan and not getting an answer might be enough.

marx would be wrong though, as the actions of the rioters show much more of a selfish bias than a class centric bias

Or any bias whatsover.

There no spokesmen delivering agenda.
This is no protest.

Originally posted by inimalist
marx would be wrong though, as the actions of the rioters show much more of a selfish bias than a class centric bias

Not necessarily as it could be said that the striking out against designer stores etc. Was a class centric action, the have not's wishing to have. so many different things have happened, with different groups over the last few days a single justification could never be enough, each group has its own reasons. It could also be argued this behaviour is reaffirming social norms for the majority, which it is. Out of sight, out of mind etc.

They stuck out at small family businesses and homes too.
(As well as services we ALL pay for, and the people there to help people.. Like attacking fire and ambulancemen as they turned up, in addition to police.) Theres no anti corporate agenda.

What corporations did the murdered so far represent?

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Not necessarily as it could be said that the striking out against designer stores etc. Was a class centric action, the have not's wishing to have. so many different things have happened, with different groups over the last few days a single justification could never be enough, each group has its own reasons. It could also be argued this behaviour is reaffirming social norms for the majority, which it is. Out of sight, out of mind etc.

then all you would be arguing is that the "have nots" are entirely ignorant, versus opportunist, whereas I favor the latter.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
They stuck out at small family businesses and homes too.
And well as services we ALL pay for.

exactly

either they took advantage of a situation that allowed them to behave this way, or they lack the ability to understand this

my argument favors the former (and, not to mention, is supported by scores of psych studies) whereas you favor the latter...

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
They stuck out at small family businesses and homes too.
And well as services we ALL pay for.

They did and that was the mob mentality, the destruction of a society they are angry with as a statement perhaps, as I said so many different incidents require a multitude of different answers. I'm sure many acts were personal and goal driven. For instance if you hated someone, that was the night to torch their car.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
They did and that was the mob mentality, the destruction of a society they are angry with as a statement perhaps, as I said so many different incidents require a multitude of different answers. I'm sure many acts were personal and goal driven. For instance if you hated someone, that was the night to torch their car.

you think poor people are stupid?

Originally posted by inimalist
you think poor people are stupid?

As you stated not all of them are poor.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
As you stated not all of them are poor.

but all of them are stupid?

Originally posted by inimalist
but all of them are stupid?

No, however mobs do escalate that's not stupidity.

Even LESS reason to feel like mass rioting (Knowing what uncontrolled mob mentality does) is justifiable then.

Still criminal acts they willingly volunteered into.

All of any high ground they may have felt they had is flushed immediately into the shitter.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Even LESS reason to feel like mass rioting (Knowing what uncontrolled mob mentality does) is justifiable then.

Still criminal acts they willingly volunteered into.

All of any high ground they may have felt they had is flushed immediately into the shitter.

Of course it's justifiable in the moment to the mob. It's like saying when the cops assaulted people at the G20 it's unjustifiable, under normal circumstances it breaks the norms under the mob mind it follows the norms.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
No, however mobs do escalate that's not stupidity.

ok, so then you would agree that the riots have more to do with the psychology of groups than with any sort of political struggle

ie: the people rioting are not justified and merely taking advantage of the destabilized situation?

What do we all think about the vigilantism? Right on imo. Always good to see people sticking up for their fellow man.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, so then you would agree that the riots have more to do with the psychology of groups than with any sort of political struggle

ie: the people rioting are not justified and merely taking advantage of the destabilized situation?

No, I would say they have a multitude of reasons stemming from the dissatisfaction of various groups in the societal norms they are forced to live under. They are looking for a reason to break the chains and explode and for the moment have done so. lot's of other individual reasons and justifications can be attributed to specific circumstances, certainly a hatred of the Police for many is one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do we all think about the vigilantism? Right on imo. Always good to see people sticking up for their fellow man.


Haha the EDL and Football hooligans etc. Funny stuff.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Of course it's justifiable in the moment to the mob. It's like saying when the cops assaulted people at the G20 it's unjustifiable, under normal circumstances it breaks the norms under the mob mind it follows the norms.

People werent trying to kill anyone at G20.

Also G20 at least had some political validity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do we all think about the vigilantism? Right on imo. Always good to see people sticking up for their fellow man.

I agree. Those three Birmingham lads died as heroes.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
People werent trying to kill anyone at G20.

Also G20 at least had some political validity.

True and true, much of this has political validity, no matter what your world view. For you it reaffirms a number of societal norms.

However that lad did chuck that fire extinguisher over the side at the Police in the student protests. Was he trying to kill someone?