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My Star Wars alter-ego decides to run the gauntlet against some of his Jedi Master contemporaries. Personally, I say he passes (slightly subjective there), but on how he fares, what say you?

Let's assume two situations. One, in which he only receives a short break; in the other, he is completely rested after each battle.

1. Luminara Unduli
2. Eeth Koth
3. Ki-Adi Mundi
4. Shaak Ti
5. Kit Fisto
6. Plo Koon

He probably dies at 5.

he falls to fisto

Short breaks, he probably stops at Ki, fully rested, Shaak Ti.

It might help if there is a general consensus as to who are the strongest Jedi after Yoda, Windu, Skywalker, and Kenobi (the top tier).

How would you rank the Jedi after the top tier?

I actually made a thread about that years ago. However, with the Clone Wars a lot more developed, many of the lists on that thread are outdated.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=384878&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Korto Vos
How would you rank the Jedi after the top tier?

I'd say Plo, Fisto, and Shaak aren't far behind, A'Sharad in there too. Ki Adi and Quinlan being a bit behind that.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say Plo, Fisto, and Shaak aren't far behind, A'Sharad in there too. Ki Adi and Quinlan being a bit behind that.

Yet, you have Vos defeating Sora Bulq, who was one of the Order's greatest swordsmen.

And then there is Agen Kolar, who is depicted as literally one of the most useless Jedi in the Order against Sidious in Revenge of the Sith, but said to be a master lightsaber practitioner. Even Fisto is shown as weak, even though he is a boss in the EU- I seriously think Fisto was high when fighting Palpatine (smile on his face lol).

Cin Drallig and Depa Bilabba were also very powerful.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yet, you have Vos defeating Sora Bulq, who was one of the Order's greatest swordsmen.

Everyone I listed is among the order's greatest swordsbeings, they have a lot of them. It's an order of tens of thousands of Jedi, if you're top 20-30, you're one of the best.

Bulq's below Koon/Fisto/etc. too and probably in the Ki-adi range.



Yea, "A Master" =/= "in the top few tiers".



Fisto's the only one there able to defend against so much as one strike. Still, he at least has plenty of good showings elsewhere.



Cin got beaten by Anakin using one arm while also fighting others. Not much question that anyone I listed would beat him too.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Even Fisto is shown as weak, even though he is a boss in the EU- I seriously think Fisto was high when fighting Palpatine (smile on his face lol).

I honestly think those 3 masters(4, if you include Mace for that amount of time) that Sidious blitzed were effected by PIS.

Originally posted by Q99
Everyone I listed is among the order's greatest swordsbeings, they have a lot of them. It's an order of tens of thousands of Jedi, if you're top 20-30, you're one of the best.

Bulq's below Koon/Fisto/etc. too and probably in the Ki-adi range.

There's not "tens of thousands of Jedi." Kenobi told Anakin, "there are now only a few thousand of us." I place the count to be around 4000.

I would say to be among the "greatest" means top 15 in the Order.

Sora Bulq mastered every lightsaber form. He taught hundreds of Jedi, and was personally approached by Mace Windu to help him develop Vaapad, something that wouldn't have occurred if he wasn't a master duelist and one with strong Force willpower. Dooku wouldn't also have bothered to seduce him to the Dark Side if he didn't see him as a powerful asset.

I'm not saying Bulq is stronger than Koon and Fisto, but he's definitely in that tier, above Ki-Adi Mundi and that range.

Quinlan Vos dueled him to the death on Saleucami, while simultaneously fighting a greater battle in his mind against his inner darkness. Bulq continuously used Dun Moch against Vos, and managed to knock him to the ground; when he moved for the killing stroke, Vos conquered his inner darkness and slashed him across the chest.

Vos's victory against Bulq and Volfe Karkko definitely places him in the top echelon.



Agreed, I'd place him in the top echelon.




Yoda, Windu, Skywalker, and Kenobi are on a higher level than any of the other Jedi we have mentioned here. And besides, the movie shows Vader dueling Cin Drallig with one arm, not killing him one-handed. Vader could have Force Choked that Padawan to death, then use both hands to slay Drallig.

Yea, here's the thing: Ki-Adi Mundi and most other council members would be great assets as well.

Someone's great if they're as strong as a council member, which doesn't mean they're on a tier of stronger members like Plo Koon or Kit Fisto.

Dooku brought people to the dark side weaker than Bulq too, Vos wasn't all that impressive at the time he was recruited and there were weaker recruits than him, so Bulq being targeted doesn't say much (he's pretty badass, just the fact he was recruited isn't a primary indicator of it). And heck, even after the training Vos got, Bulq was still out-dueling him in the final fight, Quinlan just got the shot when it counted. So Bulq's > Quinlan overall.




I haven't really seen him do anything to put him above Mundi.

"Of all living Jedi, have you only the skills to defeat Sharad Hett." -Yoda on Mundi (before a couple of the top tiers got to their better status, and not including Jedi who were friends with Sharad like Windu, but still, very high praise).



Maybe, but I'd think Koon, Fisto, A'Sharad, and even Mundi wouldn't be safe to divert so much attention from.

According to the Force Unleashed's databank, Shaak Ti dueled Vader in the temple and managed to escape unscathed. So she at least is on a different level.

So there's a pretty significant range in existence in 'one of the best'.

Originally posted by Q99 Yea, here's the thing: Ki-Adi Mundi and most other council members would be great assets as well.

Someone's great if they're as strong as a council member, which doesn't mean they're on a tier of stronger members like Plo Koon or Kit Fisto.

Dooku brought people to the dark side weaker than Bulq too, Vos wasn't all that impressive at the time he was recruited and there were weaker recruits than him, so Bulq being targeted doesn't say much (he's pretty badass, just the fact he was recruited isn't a primary indicator of it). And heck, even after the training Vos got, Bulq was still out-dueling him in the final fight, Quinlan just got the shot when it counted. So Bulq's > Quinlan overall.

Quinlan was fighting Bulq, and an even tougher battle against his own mental demons at the same time. How he managed to hold on against one of the Order's best swordsman was impressive. And how is it against Vos that he landed the killing stroke?

Unlike Maul vs. TPM Kenobi, the duel was over and Maul was just standing like an idiot before Kenobi completely surprised him and hit the "shot that counted."

However, the fight between Bulq and Vos was still ongoing when Vos was brought down to his knees. Bulq did a final Dun Moch then rushed in for the kill. At that time, Vos overcame his inner darkness and had the presence of mind and speed to slay Bulq before the Weequy completed his stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIWm1GSHJ2o

Watch from 1:22 to 1:27. You see Dooku move and ready himself for the killing stroke. Imagine Obi-Wan at that instant, bursts upward and slashes the Count across his chest before Dooku completes his attack.

Likewise, at the end, Quinlan embraced the light, and had greater Force acuity and speed to beat Bulq's finisher.

He fought two battles in one duel, and came out the victor in both. Quinlan outfought Bulq in the end; it may not have been pretty, but he proved he was a greater warrior than "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Order has ever known."




That's such a vague quote. What skills? It's clear Yoda and the Order wanted to bring Sharad Hett. Yoda could have been referring to Mundi's pacifism, his ability to calm Hett with the Force, or power of persuasion. And who knows how many friends Sharad Hett had within the Order? That might have ruled out many other stronger Jedi.





Hmm, tough to say. Unless the novelization states otherwise, Anakin could have choked that Padawan to death a second longer in the records and then dueled Drallig. In the ROTS game, Drallig is like the final boss in Operation Knightfall and is pretty bad@ss.

If I had to rank the Jedi during the Clone Wars, it would be:

1. Yoda 2. Windu 3. Skywalker 4. Kenobi
5. Koon
6. Bilabba
7. Fisto
8. Ti
9. Vos
10. Mundi
11. Drallig
12. Kolar
13. Unduli
14. Hett
15. Koth

Dralling is total fodder.

Haha yeah. Going back to this thread, honestly and objectively, I have to say Quin falls to either Ti or Fisto.

To make a ranking list harder, there's also one-off Jedi like Fey, who we only see once, but who's a centuries old wandering Jedi and was strong enough to beat Ventress without using a lightsaber.

Ventress was trying to flee with the swamp gas when she was hit and wounded by the debris Fay threw at her.

I mean, yea, Fay, along with Jon Antilles, were legends in the Order, and probably in the next tier after the Jedi Council and other seasoned warriors of the Order.

I'm surprised Luminara is ranked so low. She has the TK ability to create a tornado using sand, and she helped spearhead the attack on Genosis with Mace Windu. She's also the best Form III practitioner after Obi-Wan. And she lasted longer against Ventress than Kit "Six Seconds" Fisto did.

Just saying.

I mostly haven't seen her stuff, so I haven't commented on her for that reason.

Read The Approaching Storm for starters. She's shoulder to shoulder with Obi-Wan in prowess there.

How far into the Clone Wars is this?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm surprised Luminara is ranked so low. She has the TK ability to create a tornado using sand, and she helped spearhead the attack on Genosis with Mace Windu. She's also the best Form III practitioner after Obi-Wan. And she lasted longer against Ventress than Kit "Six Seconds" Fisto did.

Just saying.

Fisto is pretty inconsistent. He is beaten by Ventress, does very well against Grievous (who's greater than Ventress), and then falls quite quickly to Sidious.

However, his loss to Ventress might be because Form I is weak against Form II.

And the Mission to Ord Cestus was before his encounter to Grievous (I think); therefore, Fisto could have improved over the course of the war.

Hmm I too wanted to place Unduli higher, but then it would place Kolar too far behind Vos. I mean, when Kolar wanted to apprehend Vos, he was beating him easily. But that's because Vos didn't want to fight Agen and wanted to escape. Kolar too didn't want to fight, but he had to press the advantage to be able to capture the Kiffar.

Unduli was doing quite well against Ventress. Perhaps I'd place her just behind Vos.

Kolar's a fairly no-nonsense type so I'd say Vos was handicapped more in that fight.

At what point did he fight Vos (it's been awhile since I've read his stories)? Because Vos just after he joined Dooku < Vos after he'd trained with them and learned some vaapad.

Finally, I don't think there's a problem with Kolar lagging behind Vos in the rankings. Even if there's several people in between, it doesn't mean the skill gap is huge, people bunch up at some levels.

Republic 54. It was in the middle of the Clone Wars, after the Battle of Brentaal IV and before Vos killed his aunt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How far into the Clone Wars is this?

The Approaching Storm is the novel which immediately precedes AotC. So as of that timeframe, she's a shoulder to shoulder peer with Obi-Wan.

AOTC Obi-Wan wasn't too impressive.

He is in EU. The Cestus Deception and The Approaching Storm highlight Obi-Wan's strengths. The only foes he stacks up against in AotC include the best non-Jedi in the galaxy and the best duelist in the Jedi Order. It's not like he's a chump for having a hard time with either one of them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He is in EU. The Cestus Deception and The Approaching Storm highlight Obi-Wan's strengths. The only foes he stacks up against in AotC include the best non-Jedi in the galaxy and the best duelist in the Jedi Order. It's not like he's a chump for having a hard time with either one of them.

True, but how would you rank AOTC Obi-Wan against the other masters during the Clone Wars, like Koon, Fisto, Ti, Vos, and Mundi?

Originally posted by Korto Vos
True, but how would you rank AOTC Obi-Wan against the other masters during the Clone Wars, like Koon, Fisto, Ti, Vos, and Mundi?

On par with or better than him.

AOTC Kenobi VS. AOTC Fisto probably goes to Kenobi just like a ROTS Kenobi vs ROTS Fisto probably also goes to Kenobi. It makes sense that they would improve at a similar rate.

Right, but I'm talking about AOTC Obi-Wan against ROTS incarnations of Koon, Fisto, Ti, Vos and Mundi.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Ventress was trying to flee with the swamp gas when she was hit and wounded by the debris Fay threw at her.


I was thinking about how Fay 'pulled away her thoughts' to render her unconscious more than the debris.

Originally posted by Q99
I was thinking about how Fay 'pulled away her thoughts' to render her unconscious more than the debris.

I've only read that comic once, but wasn't Ventress injured while she was fleeing? Then she tried doing some Force attack on Fay, but the Jedi had already pulled her thoughts away.

I don't think that's a viable combat move. It seemed Fay was allowed that opportunity because Ventress left her defenses up and was also wounded.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I've only read that comic once, but wasn't Ventress injured while she was fleeing? Then she tried doing some Force attack on Fay, but the Jedi had already pulled her thoughts away.

Ventress was hit by some debris from Fay to wound her, then Asajj tried to crush Fay's heart with the force, and Fay sent her to sleepy land.

Ventress did know what Fay was trying, but couldn't stop it.




This is a Jedi who specifically has never used a lightsaber. It might not be viable for other Jedi but it works for Fay.

The "TK to get room, then take their thoughts away," double wammy might be her standard strategy.

Originally posted by Q99
Ventress was hit by some debris from Fay to wound her, then Asajj tried to crush Fay's heart with the force, and Fay sent her to sleepy land.

Ventress did know what Fay was trying, but couldn't stop it.




This is a Jedi who specifically has never used a lightsaber. It might not be viable for other Jedi but it works for Fay.

The "TK to get room, then take their thoughts away," double wammy might be her standard strategy.

1. Did Ventress knew Fay was trying to remove her thoughts? It seemed Ventress was fixated on just wounding Fay, but Asajj was too hurt to combat against Fay's odd strategy.

2. An interesting strategy that we can only speculate as being the norm for her. I think the whole thought-stealing trick can only work if her opponent is weakened and his/her willpower (to the Force) is damaged.

3. I think if Ventress wasn't injured and she engaged in Fay in 1v1, she would win the vast majority of times.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Did Ventress knew Fay was trying to remove her thoughts?

She said she could feel Fay doing it.




I don't think Ventress's willpower was weakened. Yea, she was bleeding in a few places, but it's Ventress, pain doesn't bother her all that much, and she was actively counter-attacking with the force.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Right, but I'm talking about AOTC Obi-Wan against ROTS incarnations of Koon, Fisto, Ti, Vos and Mundi.

I'm not sure how you can really rank them against AotC Obi-Wan, to be honest. The only saber to saber combat he sees is against Ventress whom he defeats (The Cestus Deception, which is right after AotC) and Dooku who utterly tools him. It's fair to say that Ventress could give all of the above significant trouble and maybe even defeat some 50% of the time or so, but Dooku would curbstomp all of them.

Ultimately, measuring AotC Obi-Wan as "weaker" than any of the above is supposing time equals increased skill etc. It may be correct, but there's no basis of comparison you can accurately use.

Btw, I'm rereading The Approaching Storm. Less then a dozen pages in, and Luminara is defending against a horde of assassins in an alleyway using her Soresu and doing rather well.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm not sure how you can really rank them against AotC Obi-Wan, to be honest. The only saber to saber combat he sees is against Ventress whom he defeats (The Cestus Deception, which is right after AotC) and Dooku who utterly tools him. It's fair to say that Ventress could give all of the above significant trouble and maybe even defeat some 50% of the time or so, but Dooku would curbstomp all of them.

Ultimately, measuring AotC Obi-Wan as "weaker" than any of the above is supposing time equals increased skill etc. It may be correct, but there's no basis of comparison you can accurately use.

Btw, I'm rereading The Approaching Storm. Less then a dozen pages in, and Luminara is defending against a horde of assassins in an alleyway using her Soresu and doing rather well.

All right.

So if I had to ask you, how would you rank the Jedi apart from the top four (Yoda, Windu, Skywalker, Kenobi)?

I'd have to get back to you on that. Most Jedi besides the top tier ones and Luminara/Barriss I could give two shits about.