Darth Vader vs Star Forge Malak.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Nephthys
As far as I know, Vader does not, in fact, know how to utilise Force Drain. If he can he can use his environment, but lets not pull feats out of our ass for him.

When has Vader ever shown the ability to use it?

Also, Drew confirmed that Malak was syphoning SF power on his own. While Vader may get a passive boost as a Dark Sider, the "master" of the Forge is and was Malak at the time of the epic duel and presumably this one as well. If you argue "Vader who suddenly knows Force drain despite never using it in canon material and can tap the ancient Star Forge of which he normally knows nothing and he is in the zone and the stars are lined up perfectly oh god yes" then I suppose I can understand where you're coming from.

But I'd still say Malak > Vader by a long shot. Lightning burst. Force drain. Stun. Saber longer than your body. Rinse, Repeat. Hope to God Vader doesn't chuck something at you in that big empty room.

PencilInEyelulz

SIDIOUS 66
Nephthys has pretty eyes...

I wouldn't know. I only ever see the back of his head.
On-topic, Vader wins by virtue of being a newer Sith and thus vastly moar powerful.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When has Vader ever shown the ability to use it?

Also, Drew confirmed that Malak was syphoning SF power on his own. While Vader may get a passive boost as a Dark Sider, the "master" of the Forge is and was Malak at the time of the epic duel and presumably this one as well. If you argue "Vader who suddenly knows Force drain despite never using it in canon material and can tap the ancient Star Forge of which he normally knows nothing and he is in the zone and the stars are lined up perfectly oh god yes" then I suppose I can understand where you're coming from.

confused

I said that he didn't know Force Drain.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Nephthys
confused

I said that he didn't know Force Drain.

Sorry, misread.

NTJack0

Vader wins because he's a monster.

Lord Lucien

Vader wins until Revan's released. Drew may claim to avoid overpowering Revan, but he'll still beef him up by describing Malak as Dark Side demon. Then Malak will win.

Korto Vos

Honestly though, c'mon, if Revan isn't next to Skywalker, Yoda, Windu, "Zonakin," and Marek/Starkiller in power after Drew's book, idk what to say. He has a legendary reputation, receives overwhelming adulation over his incredible Force strength, and has few but ridiculous established feats.

I understand Drew doesn't want to overpower him, but if he tries too hard to the extent that Revan is quite mediocre, that'll be extremely disappointing to such a compelling character.

PencilInEyelulz

Compelling characters needn't be extraordinarily powerful in the Force.

Revan's got enough going for him by way of talent that if he's not top tier in terms of Force strength, he'll be just fine.

Korto Vos

Personally, I just want him to be better than Starkiller, which would require for him to be uber.

Vorpal Ruin

No matter how strong they make Revan, he will still be canonically weaker than Yoda, and in turn a handful of other jedi.

It would be cool if Starkiller was given power relatively equal to the sewage beast from ANH.

Odds are stacked in Malak's favor.

PencilInEyelulz

I personally don't get the Starkiller hate, but then I've never understood the Revan man-love. My views with Revan fall in line with Lucius's views, which are realistic and compelling without turning him into an utter joke.

Nephthys

IDK, your theory a while back on teh Revan-love being a form of narcissism was quite compelling.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Nephthys
IDK, your theory a while back on teh Revan-love being a form of narcissism was quite compelling.

True.

But then perhaps I'd like to think that we're all not a bunch of flaming narcissists, N.!

Korto Vos

Revan is more like Anakin Skywalker than Anakin Skywalker himself. His rise, fall, and rise again was extremely well-made and satisfying for fans and gamers.

Marek/Starkiller came out of no where. Vader finds a boy, raises him to be his apprentice, and then that apprentice turns on him, and manages to bring Vader to his knees. It completely cheapens what Luke Skywalker does in the OT. Like it's made to be that only Luke has the power to defeat the Empire because he's one of the last Jedi and the son of Skywalker. But now it's like, "oh no Luke, you're just a chump. Starkiller almost did it several years ago and he was way more uberly powerful than you were."

PencilInEyelulz

^ I hate that excuseexplanation.

Look, Starkiller doesn't cheapen Luke Skywalker's existence on any level. First, Starkiller was a fully trained Force-wielding warrior, whereas Luke's training was the very definition of half-assed. Second, Starkiller failed to stop the Sith, whereas Luke succeed. And third, most importantly, Luke's defeat of Vader and the Emperor was ultimately through compassion, not combat. This is the critical component to their defeat: Luke couldn't have stopped Palpatine with his lightsaber or with the Force; he wasn't strong enough. His only shot at victory was by appealing to his father's love for his son.

That's it.

Starkiller is in the most important ways a very different character than Luke Skywalker. Stronger? Yes. But he failed. It still took Luke to stop the Empire, Starkiller couldn't do it.

Vorpal Ruin

Starkiller was overhyped and made to show rediculous feats just to trick people into buying a crappy game.

I've got no Revan love. I do like him more, but it may be because KOTOR>TFU majorly.

Nephthys

I liked TFU.......

Korto Vos

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
^ I hate that excuseexplanation.

Look, Starkiller doesn't cheapen Luke Skywalker's existence on any level. First, Starkiller was a fully trained Force-wielding warrior, whereas Luke's training was the very definition of half-assed. Second, Starkiller failed to stop the Sith, whereas Luke succeed. And third, most importantly, Luke's defeat of Vader and the Emperor was ultimately through compassion, not combat. This is the critical component to their defeat: Luke couldn't have stopped Palpatine with his lightsaber or with the Force; he wasn't strong enough. His only shot at victory was by appealing to his father's love for his son.

That's it.

Starkiller is in the most important ways a very different character than Luke Skywalker. Stronger? Yes. But he failed. It still took Luke to stop the Empire, Starkiller couldn't do it.

You are entitled to your views.

To me, I always saw the Galactic Empire, especially Vader and Sidious, being in complete and utter dominance. Then in TFU to see Marek smote Vader and knock off his helmet, then have him engaging the Emperor's ultra-powerful Force Lightning on equal terms was ridiculous.

This. Completely this.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Korto Vos
You are entitled to your views.

Oh. Oh, well I appreciate that.

Korto Vos

Lol you are welcome.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Compelling characters needn't be extraordinarily powerful in the Force.

Revan's got enough going for him by way of talent that if he's not top tier in terms of Force strength, he'll be just fine.

To be fair, Revan's main appeal is being badass, not just being a leader, a polyglot, and a mechanic. Drew's book nerfing Revan as a knee-jerk reaction to avoid hatemail and OP would be like the Han Solo Trilogy showcasing Han Solo failing at flight school and using his blaster. It would deconstruct the myth and hype of the character in the worst way.

Also, Starkillers over-the-top Force powers usage is horrible and makes me loathe the character for two reasons:

1. It's grossly inconsistent with Force usage in the PT-OT eras. We don't see Yoda, Sidious, or Anakin disintegrating stormtroopers en masse or Force choking a baseball team.

2. This inconsistency in power trickles into movie characters by extention, and ruins any level of movie-only continuity by extension. Either we're forced to believe that movie-Jedi and Sith really can use the Force like gods or we're forced to believe that TFU is an exceptionally blurry window into EU and thus should be isolated within itself concerning context.

My thoughts? **** that. If they're going to OP Force users, just rewrite the goddamn movies. If Force users can play god with physics now, just make it more uniform across the board so shit makes sense. Or, failing that, ****ing use some rules of engagement for making EU content, George. Oh wait, you can't do that because you have post-OT books where Jedi babies communicate from the womb, Jedi talk to animals, and an entire species of sentients exists outside of the Force.

PencilInEyelulz

TFU is hardly the first EU material to vastly overpower certain characters. I don't see the distinction between Marek and, say, the reborn Emperor or uber-Luke Skywalker or the ancient Sith with their toys.

And as far as Revan is concerned, I grow tired of useless fan service (which is ironic, given the criticisms leveled at Revan). If I want people who are prodigious in every single field and know no weakness, I'll start reading Marvel or DC. As it stands, I'm not interested in Drew writing the ultimate Revan fanboy's fantasy.

Korto Vos

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
TFU is hardly the first EU material to vastly overpower certain characters. I don't see the distinction between Marek and, say, the reborn Emperor or uber-Luke Skywalker or the ancient Sith with their toys.

And as far as Revan is concerned, I grow tired of useless fan service (which is ironic, given the criticisms leveled at Revan). If I want people who are prodigious in every single field and know no weakness, I'll start reading Marvel or DC. As it stands, I'm not interested in Drew writing the ultimate Revan fanboy's fantasy.

Yeah, but WTF is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLZTACMuMBU&feature=relmfu

I don't want to see Revan massively overpowered either; however, it might be difficult depicting someone who managed to slay two terentateks by himself and defeat a Star Forge-powered and Jedi-fueled Malak. If he is portrayed weaker than his feats indicate, you just know that Drew is trying too hard to nerf Revan and has made him annoyingly inconsistent.

PencilInEyelulz

That won't happen. Karpyshyn would probably die first. You can expect that Revan will singlehandedly do something of monumental significance because of his wide range of talents and abilities that are peerless in the cosmos.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
TFU is hardly the first EU material to vastly overpower certain characters. I don't see the distinction between Marek and, say, the reborn Emperor or uber-Luke Skywalker or the ancient Sith with their toys.

And as far as Revan is concerned, I grow tired of useless fan service (which is ironic, given the criticisms leveled at Revan). If I want people who are prodigious in every single field and know no weakness, I'll start reading Marvel or DC. As it stands, I'm not interested in Drew writing the ultimate Revan fanboy's fantasy. Difference is that we get to see those powers acted out in detail, and controlled by the audience. The shitty drawing of the DE comics doesn't offer much for visuals.

Revan's (implied) powers are overrated (hopefully, Dre), and his Gary Stu personality and skills are prodigiously awful, but the nature of the character's... character, is still rather open ended, at least until the novel. Revan still has the potential to be adequately (proportionately) downsized. Marek is concretely within canon with two games, novels, and comics under his belt. He's reminiscent of Dragonball Z, and his personality is either A.) angry, or B.) non-existent. He sucks as a character.

PencilInEyelulz

Lord Lucien
Difference is that we get to see those powers acted out in detail, and controlled by the audience.

And that makes it worse? That's pretty unconvincing.

I saw pretty clearly Palpatine singlehandedly obliterating a fleet of starships, shitty visual or no.

You can expect Karpyshyn to fail. That's what he does when he actually writes novels.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
I saw pretty clearly Palpatine singlehandedly obliterating a fleet of starships, shitty visual or no.

Lawl.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
And that makes it worse? That's pretty unconvincing.It makes it more noticeable.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
I saw pretty clearly Palpatine singlehandedly obliterating a fleet of starships, shitty visual or no. Were they moving? Pretty (shitty, actually) drawings are great and all, but moving, pretty visuals--with sound!--leave a greater impact. Made all the worse when you consider the point in the SW timeline and the new inconsistencies with powers.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
You can expect Karpyshyn to fail. That's what he does when he actually writes novels. Bane novels sucked. I like saying that.

Korto Vos

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Difference is that we get to see those powers acted out in detail, and controlled by the audience. The shitty drawing of the DE comics doesn't offer much for visuals.

Revan's (implied) powers are overrated (hopefully, Dre), and his Gary Stu personality and skills are prodigiously awful, but the nature of the character's... character, is still rather open ended, at least until the novel. Revan still has the potential to be adequately (proportionately) downsized. Marek is concretely within canon with two games, novels, and comics under his belt. He's reminiscent of Dragonball Z, and his personality is either A.) angry, or B.) non-existent. He sucks as a character.

How is he overrated? There isn't enough known about the extent of his Jedi abilities. The ones that are confirmed are impressive, in any way you look at them.

And c'mon, you said it yourself- his character is open-ended, because you choose the way you want him to act. It's a major reason why I don't like this idea of a novel. It lets Drew, not exactly the finest writer on the block, determine Revan's personality. Sure, I am really interested in what happens to Revan, but I want to see that in a game, not in a novel.

And Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus are supposed to annoy the f*** out of people, but Revan certainly didn't to me. His backstory prior to KotOR, with him turning his back against the Jedi and his fall to the Dark Side show him as susceptible. And everybody loves a good tale of redemption.

truejedi

Here's a question, were those starships in DE full-size star ships or models? The shitty visual makes it hard to tell.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Lawl.

I think you missed the point, my flower. Which is so unlike y- laughing out loud

Sorry, I couldn't even type that with a straight face (no gay jokes). uhuh

Rather like I hope that the whole of Revan-fanlove isn't the product of emotionally stunted narcissism, I hope that Star Wars fans needn't play exaggerated video games in order to notice how overpowered certain characters and eras are. I like to think they're not retarded.

This suggests that they (and perhaps you, given your defense of them) are victims of a weak attention span and perception to detail.

Agreed completely.

Compelling characters (particularly protagonists) need deficiencies, flaws, and weaknesses. If they lack these humanizing traits, they're utterly worthless and boring. So I'm looking forward to the passage that depicts Revan being outsmarted or beaten into a bloody pulp by an enemy. Or perhaps both.

Nephthys

truejedi

ready for plageius novel?

Korto Vos

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Compelling characters (particularly protagonists) need deficiencies, flaws, and weaknesses. If they lack these humanizing traits, they're utterly worthless and boring. So I'm looking forward to the passage that depicts Revan being outsmarted or beaten into a bloody pulp by an enemy. Or perhaps both.

Well, I have no doubt Revan will be "outsmarted" and possibly "beaten into a blood pulp" since Drew seems to more or else say it. And I agree, I'm looking forward to it as well. I want to see what can outfox Revan himself.

You have to realize that Revan started as a video game character who then became part of Star Wars canon (unless it is stated otherwise). And his immense popularity (thanks to KotOR's brilliant plot) is what spawned further development on his legacy, including his influence in Bane's Rule of Two. The main video game character, especially in Bioware games, is quite the bad@ss and usually stronger than anyone else. Nobody wants a main character too hindered by flaws. Instead, Bioware made Revan into an Anakin Skywalker 2.0 and gave him an engrossing background that forms the basis of his compelling redemption. Instead of personal deficiencies, they riddle him with countless tribulations (it's the cookie cutter recipe for all the prodigious Bioware protagonists, including Shepard, the Hero of Ferelden, and the Child of Bhaal/Gorion's Ward).

As HK-47 states, Revan more or less lost his sense of humanity by the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and believed too much in "retain the strong, remove the weak." His hunt for the Star Forge, along with the other side quests he agrees to do, rekindles his old compassion for the Republic and its people. So I can't agree with your statement that he lacks humanizing traits. KotOR demonstrates how he regains them.

And he had weaknesses too, the primary one being his love for Bastila. Both Karath and Malak exploited Bastila and used her against Revan.

Vorpal Ruin

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, Starkillers over-the-top Force powers usage is horrible and makes me loathe the character for two reasons:

1. It's grossly inconsistent with Force usage in the PT-OT eras. We don't see Yoda, Sidious, or Anakin disintegrating stormtroopers en masse or Force choking a baseball team.

2. This inconsistency in power trickles into movie characters by extention, and ruins any level of movie-only continuity by extension. Either we're forced to believe that movie-Jedi and Sith really can use the Force like gods or we're forced to believe that TFU is an exceptionally blurry window into EU and thus should be isolated within itself concerning context.

This is exactly how I feel about starkiller.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Nephthys
Naw. There are tons of characters who are basically flawless who are still somehow compelling.

Uh, no.

And Captain's movie sucked. Hugo Weaving and Stanley Tucci were the only good parts about it.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Nobody wants a main character too hindered by flaws.

Speak for yourself. As someone who isn't engrossed by pedestrian and childish stories with the obvious tropes and cliches, I find flawed heroes compelling. Talentless and inept? No. One can be strong without being the strongest, one can be smart without being the smartest, and one can be great without being the greatest. Characters (specifically protagonists) who are overpowered in any capacity in such a way that there aren't any challenges -- that there isn't the threat of defeat, humiliation, and utter ruin -- are boring, uncompelling, and belong in a Stephanie Meyer novel. It is this element that Drew Karpyshyn quite frankly sucks at and one need only look at the Bane trilogy for ironclad evidence.

Korto Vos

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Speak for yourself. As someone who isn't engrossed by pedestrian and childish stories with the obvious tropes and cliches, I find flawed heroes compelling. Talentless and inept? No. One can be strong without being the strongest, one can be smart without being the smartest, and one can be great without being the greatest. Characters who are overpowered in any capacity in such a way that there aren't any challenges -- that there isn't the threat of defeat, humiliation, and utter ruin -- are boring, uncompelling, and belong in a Stephanie Meyer novel. It is this element that Drew Karpyshyn quite frankly sucks at and one need only look at the Bane trilogy for ironclad evidence.

I'm not addressing myself or you specifically. I was speaking in general. Bioware's primary gaming market is an audience that frankly only cares about creating the ultimate killing machine and developing this uber build throughout an entertaining plot.

Most video game protagonists usually start off as talented, strong, smart, and great, and by the end, pretty much become the strongest, smartest, and greatest.

Look no further than all of Bioware's heroes if you want proof.

And you're comparing Revan to Twilight trash? Edward Cullen < < < < < < < Revan.

PencilInEyelulz

I understand completely why Revan came off the way he did in the video game. It's a vastly different medium and different tactics must be utilized in order to capture the interest of the audience.

What I'm hoping for is Karpyshyn avoiding that entirely in the book.

Korto Vos

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
I understand completely why Revan came off the way he did in the video game. It's a vastly different medium and different tactics must be utilized in order to capture the interest of the audience.

What I'm hoping for is Karpyshyn avoiding that entirely in the book.

Look, I understand what you were saying before; if you have a character without any flaws or weaknesses, then that individual wouldn't be human and would be quite annoying.

But yeah, Revan couldn't be shown in that manner because he is a video game character, and a Bioware protagonist. As a result, his flaws are minimized, and his prodigious nature is amplified. Yet, it's his story, from rise, fall, and rise again, that makes him really interesting. Not to mention, the game allows players to have him have a sorta roguish personality, especially in his interactions with Bastila and HK-47.

And Drew said he won't make Revan into the killing machine at the end of KotOR; let's see what happens.

Nephthys

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Uh, no.

And Captain's movie sucked. Hugo Weaving and Stanley Tucci were the only good parts about it.

Uh, ya-huh!

Well every other person I've talked to says differently including the professional movie critics that I follow. Maybe you just have bad taste.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, ya-huh!

If you're a moron and your taste in fiction reflects that, then I suppose I'd be inclined to agree.

As someone who's actually seen the movie, that gives me a tremendous advantage over you. But I don't blame you for failing to notice, giving all the other ones I have. sneer

And maybe you just taste bad. uhuh

Nephthys

I think we both know thats just not true.

Korto Vos

I have it on good authority (aka the general public and myself) that Rise of the Planet of the Apes is better than Captain America, X-Men: First Class, Harry Potter 7.2, and all other summer flicks.

Normally, I trust some critics. However, after watching the critic-lavished HP 7.2, I lost some faith. So when some of them started dissing ROTPOTA, I couldn't believe it and checked it out for myself. Turns out they were wrong again.

Nephthys

As do I. That doesn't make Captain 'merica any less of a good movie however.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
If you're a moron and your taste in fiction reflects that, then I suppose I'd be inclined to agree.

As someone who's actually seen the movie, that gives me a tremendous advantage over you. But I don't blame you for failing to notice, giving all the other ones I have. sneer

Nah, just like any other character archetype the 'Gary Stu' can be doen well with the right treatment. Superman is a great example of someone who has very few if any real flaws and yet remains endearing and badass at the same time. Besides which the sheer number of people who love the flawless protagonists of Revan, Shepard and his ilk speak for themselves.

Which would actually matter if I was talking about my opinion versus yours. As it is I'm just pointing out that your opinion in very much in the minority, and stands against professionals in the field of cinema.

PencilInEyelulz

Nephthys
Nah, just like any other character archetype the 'Gary Stu' can be doen well with the right treatment. Superman is a great example of someone who has very few if any real flaws and yet remains endearing and badass at the same time.

Naturally, you try your hardest to bypass the point entirely. Well done, lover. Your myopia is a sight to behold. (Pun intended.) sneer

First, Superman has two very critical weaknesses oft' exploited by his plethora of enemies. The first is Kryptonite, the effects of which are many and disturbing; the second is his compassion and affection for humanity, the restraint he naturally exercises when dealing with them, and the lengths to which he'll go to protect them. And then there is the fact that there are those (however few) who are capable of simply outmatching the Man of Steel.

Second, the recent shift in preference from Superman to Batman is in part testament to this popular misconception of the Man of Steel: That he is boring and flawless. He's neither.

There are plenty of people in this world who find characters compelling that you don't, does that keep you from having that opinion?

And I'll take the time to point out that an appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy, which you ought to know by now. That certain critics are paid for espousing certain opinions in no way makes the field less subjective.

Nephthys

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Naturally, you try your hardest to bypass the point entirely. Well done, lover. Your myopia is a sight to behold. (Pun intended.) sneer

First, Superman has two very critical weaknesses oft' exploited by his plethora of enemies. The first is Kryptonite, the effects of which are many and disturbing; the second is his compassion and affection for humanity, the restraint he naturally exercises when dealing with them, and the lengths to which he'll go to protect them. And then there is the fact that there are those (however few) who are capable of simply outmatching the Man of Steel.

Second, the recent shift in preference from Superman to Batman is in part testament to this popular misconception of the Man of Steel: That he is boring and flawless. He's neither.

If we could talk for once without petty insults and sneer smilies that would be great Gid.

Kyrptonite? Really? How the hell does that stop him from being a Gary Stu? Especially when its frequently used to show him overcoming it with his legendary willpower. Hell, he's resistent to it now iirc. Its a plot device and a 'weakness' in the same way that Bella Swan is 'plain' or various Mary Stu's are 'clumsy.'

And there are those who are capable of outmatching Revan. I seem to recall that Revan was at one point stripped naked and tortured while completely helpless. And then a few minutes later almost gets gutted by Malak in a duel, nottomention when Malak almost killed him before the game even started as well as his fall to the darkside and conversion by the Emperor.

Erm, what? Thats what I'm arguing. You're saying that characters must have flaws or be objectively weak and boring, unless you've seriously misrepresented your case.

Dude, I never said that you were wrong. I just pointed out that a lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that I'm inclined more towards their arguments (as in, they actually have them lol) than yours. Jeez, did a freakin' dog crawl up your ass today or what?

And btw, writing off a point because it contains a logical fallacy is also a logical fallacy. Just fyi.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Korto Vos
How is he overrated? There isn't enough known about the extent of his Jedi abilities. The ones that are confirmed are impressive, in any way you look at them.

And c'mon, you said it yourself- his character is open-ended, because you choose the way you want him to act. It's a major reason why I don't like this idea of a novel. It lets Drew, not exactly the finest writer on the block, determine Revan's personality. Sure, I am really interested in what happens to Revan, but I want to see that in a game, not in a novel.

And Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus are supposed to annoy the f*** out of people, but Revan certainly didn't to me. His backstory prior to KotOR, with him turning his back against the Jedi and his fall to the Dark Side show him as susceptible. And everybody loves a good tale of redemption. The fan-love of Revan's supposed power is kinda stupid when there's nothing quantifiable to go on. How he achieved what he did is still an unknown, but a lot of people still prop him up on the ultimate pedestal. Probably, as Gideon theorized, out of unconscious narcissism.

I want the novel (and even TOR, kinda) for two reasons:

1.) I don't like such a major and active figure in the mythos to be so unknown. I want his story completed.

2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil. KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause. Super powered, super awesome, super f*cking everything. He probably dueled people with his Lightning Cock too, that's how f*cking amazing KotOR II made him out. I want him downgraded to an amazing man, not this demi-god.

Unfortunately, it's Karpy doing it. So in some way, despite his claim, Revan's gonna wind being the Jesus of the Universe somehow.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Rather like I hope that the whole of Revan-fanlove isn't the product of emotionally stunted narcissism, I hope that Star Wars fans needn't play exaggerated video games in order to notice how overpowered certain characters and eras are. I like to think they're not retarded.

This suggests that they (and perhaps you, given your defense of them) are victims of a weak attention span and perception to detail.
If TFU, in relation to the OT, is not exaggerated (and sorely lacking in an interesting protagonist), than I'm questioning your own attention span and perception to detail.

PencilInEyelulz

Lord Lucien
If TFU, in relation to the OT, is not exaggerated

When did I say otherwise?

When did I say otherwise?*

*Though this is a subjective and defensible point, given that Starkiller's character is one with clearly defined personality traits, one that draws upon established Star Wars elements, and one with strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not one of the sycophantic morons who believes the OT to be flawless or above reproach, bemoaning the PT and harboring ill intent for George Lucas (who ruined my childhood), masturbating to the melodic tones of RedLetterMedia.

TFU, like everything else, has strengths and weaknesses as a game, as a story, and as a piece of the Star Wars universe. It's hardly perfect, but it's not a complete disaster either.

Nephthys

Well, its not our fault that RLM has such a sexy voice.

PencilInEyelulz

Nephthys
If we could talk for once without petty insults and sneer smilies that would be great Gid.

Well, as ever, I was just teasing. But fine, just make sure this mutual respect and kindness thing both ways, m'kay?

Or I will rape you to death and leave your corpse to rot in the possession of religious and political conservatives.

Because for most of Superman's run, Kryptonite was the device that enabled many of his enemies to gain an edge in their dealings with him. It is a vulnerability that deals directly with the plot and serves a deeper purpose; unlike Bella's plainness or clumsiness, which are simply poorly-executed devices to add some desperately needed dimension to an otherwise banal character.

Not established by Karpyshyn and I think this is the fundamental difference in our opinion. I want it acknowledged in-universe that Revan has challenges, foes, and obstacles that pose a dire threat rather than postulation and deduction where we assume that there are characters from other eras who are more capable in a certain regard.

Two of these occur when Revan is bereft of his memories or full use of skills (and not by the doing of Malak, but by the meddling of the Jedi Council). The last one is something that remains vague, the circumstances of which are unknown.

My point is that you can cite as many professional critics or Revan fanboys as you like and it doesn't change anything, because I've never asserted that mine was the popular opinion. This is a subjective field and what matters is can we provide reasons for believing the way we do.

Lucius

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Two of these occur when Revan is bereft of his memories or full use of skills (and not by the doing of Malak, but by the meddling of the Jedi Council). The last one is something that remains vague, the circumstances of which are unknown

It has a lot to do with Malak. Revan fell for a trap set by the Jedi and then failed to anticipate Malak's betrayal. The chain of events from there, led to Revan getting horribly injured and mindfvcked by the council.

PencilInEyelulz

Originally posted by Lucius
It has a lot to do with Malak. Revan fell for a trap set by the Jedi and then failed to anticipate Malak's betrayal. The chain of events from there, led to Revan getting horribly injured and mindfvcked by the council.

I didn't say it had nothing to do with Malak, but this isn't exactly like Lex Luthor brandishing Kryptonite in Superman's face. The actual lack of skill and memory is because of the Council's meddling. In fact, if anything, Revan's survival is an example of Malak's error.

Korto Vos

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The fan-love of Revan's supposed power is kinda stupid when there's nothing quantifiable to go on. How he achieved what he did is still an unknown, but a lot of people still prop him up on the ultimate pedestal. Probably, as Gideon theorized, out of unconscious narcissism.

I want the novel (and even TOR, kinda) for two reasons:

1.) I don't like such a major and active figure in the mythos to be so unknown. I want his story completed.

2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil. KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause. Super powered, super awesome, super f*cking everything. He probably dueled people with his Lightning Cock too, that's how f*cking amazing KotOR II made him out. I want him downgraded to an amazing man, not this demi-god.

1.) I think it's best to agree that we don't know the full extent of his power. I won't say he's not quantifiable, because there is impressive evidence (his victory over a Star Forge, Jedi-powered Malak after plowing through the Star Forge's onslaught and fighting a Star Forge-powered Bastila; his victory over two terentateks; his ability to thrive on Malachor V; his incredibly described Force strength; and his victories over Mandalore and Yusanis). It's just not enough at the moment to properly paint a complete picture as to exactly how powerful Revan is.

2.) What do you mean how he achieved what he did is unknown? The Force is strong with him? He must have a high midi-chlorian count? He is a prodigious Jedi?
How is Shepard already that skilled in the beginning of ME that he becomes the first human Spectre? He just is.

Perhaps I didn't understand what you meant by that statement.

3.) You bring a valid point. A novel would eliminate the unknowns about Revan greater than a game. I'd have preferred KOTOR 3 because (apart from being a potentially amazing game) his persona is one that is mysterious. How he acts is up to the imagination. And even if the book might be more definitive, another game would still give us enough concrete feats and evidence of his abilities to better define him, IMO.

4.) Yeah, KOTOR II made him pretty legendary. Which is why I think of him as the shadow protagonist of that game.

Lucius

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
I didn't say it had nothing to do with Malak, but this isn't exactly like Lex Luthor brandishing Kryptonite in Superman's face. The actual lack of skill and memory is because of the Council's meddling. In fact, if anything, Revan's survival is an example of Malak's error.

Malak or the Council, Revan suffered a complete and utter setback. A setback which results in him being reconstructed into a fake person wholly devoted to the Council. Essentially he lost, and a person that doesn't exist won and became the new Revan, and as I've mentioned over MSN, fvck that Revan.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil. KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause. Super powered, super awesome, super f*cking everything. He probably dueled people with his Lightning Cock too, that's how f*cking amazing KotOR II made him out. I want him downgraded to an amazing man, not this demi-god.

I think has been rather well established that he did fall to the dark side and his good intentions were just a weak justification for doing what all Sith do. That and take into account that everything we learn about Revan in KotOR II is from third party sources (Kreia's hardly unbiased, the Handmaiden is just repeating what she's heard, the Disciple is just a historian going on what he's heard, Canderous was established to have a hard on for Revan in KOTOR I.) The only person I would consider genuinely unbiased is GOTO, and all GOTO does is talk about how he admires Revan's strategic capabilities.

It is far more likely that Revan was very good at presenting a larger than life image of himself (a common theme among charismatic military leaders.) He's a badass and indeed, probably an amazing man. Take that and throw in some carefully constructed hyperbole and propaganda and it's not hard to see how larger than live godlike Revan could appear.

Of course, that's my interpretation of things and knowing Drew, I'm probably fvcked.

Nephthys

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Well, as ever, I was just teasing. But fine, just make sure this mutual respect and kindness thing both ways, m'kay?

Or I will rape you to death and leave your corpse to rot in the possession of religious and political conservatives.

Conservatives? The fvck is wrong with you you goddamn psycho!

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz Because for most of Superman's run, Kryptonite was the device that enabled many of his enemies to gain an edge in their dealings with him. It is a vulnerability that deals directly with the plot and serves a deeper purpose; unlike Bella's plainness or clumsiness, which are simply poorly-executed devices to add some desperately needed dimension to an otherwise banal character.

And as I said, the kryptonite factor has been severely weakened currently. And its usually used to show how frickin' awesome Superman is, as in Returns when he proves hs heroic willpower by throwing an entire continent of the stuf into orbit.

But whatever, Superman was merely an example.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Not established by Karpyshyn and I think this is the fundamental difference in our opinion. I want it acknowledged in-universe that Revan has challenges, foes, and obstacles that pose a dire threat rather than postulation and deduction where we assume that there are characters from other eras who are more capable in a certain regard.

I'm pretty sure it is acknowledged when Malak kicks his teeth in the first time they fight and when Revan surrenders without a struggle to Saul. And also, no matter how powerful you are that Krayt Dragon eats you in one hit.

Also Karpyshan wasn't responsible for overhyping Revan at all. Nothing in Kotor one has him presented as a Stu (Well except when Canderous slobbers on your knob when he finds out who you really are), especially when most of the game is spent trying to avoid a straight fight with the Sith for as long as possible. Its only in Kotor 2 that Avellone creates the Cult of Personality and characters specifically talkk about how fricking awesome Revan is.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Two of these occur when Revan is bereft of his memories or full use of skills (and not by the doing of Malak, but by the meddling of the Jedi Council). The last one is something that remains vague, the circumstances of which are unknown.

We never see Revan with his memories or skills though, so I don't see how you can say thats a mitigating factor. And what about when Malak fires on his ship? That was a major oversight on Revans part imo.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
My point is that you can cite as many professional critics or Revan fanboys as you like and it doesn't change anything, because I've never asserted that mine was the popular opinion. This is a subjective field and what matters is can we provide reasons for believing the way we do.

And I did. The professional critics were my reasons and you apparantly had a problem with that. You on the other hand just claimed that it sucked and then jumped on my when I said that wasn't what I had heard.

Not really. Theres never anything to my knowledge in Kotor 1 that glorifies Revan or makes him out to be anythingn other than a re-tread of the tired Exar Kun archetype. A Jedi who was arrogant and thought he could use the darkside without getting corrupted but ultimately succummed. You never hear anyone defend Revan like they do in Kotor 2 and in fact this was what motivated Avellone to go with that angle there because he thought it was a wasted opportunity that you couldn't.

truejedi

You know... if Bastilla and Malak had their force-combat boosted simply by being on the Star Forge, would Revan as well, have had his ability boosted? Every single force-sensitive place we have ever encountered boosts everyone around it, not just one or two of the protagonists.

Lucius

Originally posted by truejedi
You know... if Bastilla and Malak had their force-combat boosted simply by being on the Star Forge, would Revan as well, have had his ability boosted? Every single force-sensitive place we have ever encountered boosts everyone around it, not just one or two of the protagonists.

I kind of figured the Star Forge is the space station equiv to say Korriban, dark side friendly.

PencilInEyelulz

Nephthys
Conservatives? The fvck is wrong with you you goddamn psycho!

It pleases me that you underestimate my depravity.

Have no fear; in comics, nothing is permanent. Kryptonite's lethality shall return.

You're leaving out a couple of key facts: (1) Lacing the island with kryptonite was a cunning tactic on Lex's part that evened the playing field with Superman. When he landed, Superman was horribly beaten and outmatched by Lex's thugs and mortally wounded by Lex himself. (2.) The effort of hurling the island into space nearly kills him.

If anything, this serves my point well: Kryptonite was a plot device that enabled Lex to gain the upper hand, to thoroughly dominate Superman and nearly kill him. The audience saw that Superman's efforts weren't easy and that he could very easily have died; the Man of Steel crushed by a petty criminal.

no u

I mean in the gorram frakkin' book.

Bingo.

And don't forget Bane's masturbation of him in Path of Destruction.

Agreed on Malak's treachery. I can only hope for a passage that details Revan's embarrassment and insecurity at being outfoxed by such a brute.

ares834

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause.

I actually loved that about KotOR II. It made Revan move away from the cliched fallen Jedi and he became something new someithing unique and exciting. I really hope the novel goes with this angle.

However, he did fall to the dark side. Yes, he intentionaly did so but he still fell or at least Kreia believes so. And as KotOR II shows Revan was incredibly dark. According to Kriea, Revan knew what was going to happen at Malachor V and did it intentionaly to cause the massive disturbance. HK-47 also states that he used Malchor V to "clean house" bascially killing most of the Jedi and Soilders who would not follow him into Sithhood. Furthermore, he raized much of Telos simply to send a message to the Jedi. And of course he created the Sith Assassins and Jedi hunters to corrupt, kill, and demoralize the Jedi so he basically started the shadow war against the Jedi. Yeah, the guy was pretty damn twisted.

Nephthys

Originally posted by ares834
I actually loved that about KotOR II. It made Revan move away from the cliched fallen Jedi and he became something new someithing unique and exciting. I really hope the novel goes with this angle.

thumb up

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
When did I say otherwise?

When did I say otherwise?*

*Though this is a subjective and defensible point, given that Starkiller's character is one with clearly defined personality traits, one that draws upon established Star Wars elements, and one with strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not one of the sycophantic morons who believes the OT to be flawless or above reproach, bemoaning the PT and harboring ill intent for George Lucas (who ruined my childhood), masturbating to the melodic tones of RedLetterMedia.

TFU, like everything else, has strengths and weaknesses as a game, as a story, and as a piece of the Star Wars universe. It's hardly perfect, but it's not a complete disaster either. I... think we may have been agreeing this whole time.

The only Star Wars game I've played that's a disaster is TFU II. Purely judging by story/characters/plot etc., I preferred The Crystal Star. But the first Force Unleashed, while the very definition of average quality Star Wars story, did one thing that irks me---it set a magnificent precedent of "F*ck you, Consistency" toward any more-than-casual fan of the franchise. What I keep referring to as the Dragonball-esque powers of that game are REALLY SUPER FUN to play, but very f*cking irritating when kept in context. And it's for that fact that I bemoan TFU. Good game--it's why I own it. Mediocre-to-Average story.

And Marek is bland. Two-dimensional, and bland. I was never able to give a crap about him in any way. I never thought that the droid comic relief and blind Wise Old Man would be so much more interesting (though not by a helluva a lot).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Theres never anything to my knowledge in Kotor 1 that glorifies Revan or makes him out to be anythingn other than a re-tread of the tired Exar Kun archetype. A Jedi who was arrogant and thought he could use the darkside without getting corrupted but ultimately succummed. You never hear anyone defend Revan like they do in Kotor 2 and in fact this was what motivated Avellone to go with that angle there because he thought it was a wasted opportunity that you couldn't. I've played that game dozens of times, inclduing recently. Revan is treated time and again by every type of character as a great hero who was seduced by evil--the evil of the Star Forge and the experiences of war compounded. Most character simultaneously praised what he was and condemned what he became. Sometimes with conflicting thoughts (like Bastila and Carth). It was a straight forward story of Good becomes Evil becomes Good. No real attempts (that resulted in suckage) at deep, meaningful philosophy, just a Good vs. Evil story/hero. And it worked... so well. The mysterious, god-like complex all the third parties attributed him in KotOR II... even in Sci-Fi/Fantasy Star Wars, I don't want a perfect being. Revan's lack of presence in the sequel propped him up to the highest pedestal, and I've been hoping for something to knock him back down with the mortals. Even if it's going to be Drew and post-Revan TOR, at least it's going to happen.

But because it's Drew... f*ck.