Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Neutral setting, each at their peak, etc. In the middle of the Jedi Temple.

Team 1

I hope starkiller dies a painful death before Luke mops up.

Really close match. I may be leaning towards the Sith for the beamspam, but Starkiller should never be underestimated. He's as close to Kun as Luke and Sidious are.

Honestly, split IMO.

Well, to me, I see this as:

#1 Jedi & #5 Jedi vs. #1 Sith & (likely) #3 Sith

I agree with Vorpal. Starkiller dies miserably with Luke emerging as the lone survivor.

Starkillers only #5?

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. Anakin Skywalker ("Zonakin"
5. Galen Marek/Starkiller

I would love to add Revan as #5, but we don't know enough. I really hope the book makes him better than that overpowered unnecessary protagonist of crappy TFU.

I'd put Marek above Windu personally.

Making Starkiller the third strongest Jedi of all time is an insult to decades of Star Wars mythology. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to give him the honor of being in the Top 5.

I'd also put Zonakin above Windu as well. Windu vs Dooku is a good fight, but Zonakin treated the latter like a bad joke as soon as he got serious.

But yeah, despite our distaste for him, Galen Marek is incredibly powerful (also Bane, Sidious and Nihilus are above Kun as well imo. Also maybe Zannah.).

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Making Starkiller the third strongest Jedi of all time is an insult to decades of Star Wars mythology. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to give him the honor of being in the Top 5.

Agreed. The teaser trailer for TFU II with the budding battle on Hoth and the rampant Force mastery on behalf of Starkiller made me want to hate-vomit. I can understand movie characters having low showings simply to keep them in line with GL's vision, and accepting EU characters as overblown and exaggerated keeping in line with the canon policy of "It gets blurrier as you move away from movie canon blah blah", but the whole Force choking a battalion and then Dark Phoenix-ing them with the Force is OP.

Huh, interesting placements.

I don't see Zonakin repeating the same treatment against Windu.

Yeah, I made the Caedus vs. Kun thread to see which Sith Lord was stronger. It seems fairly even atm.

I'd rank the Sith as Sidious, Bane, Caedus, Kun, and Vader. I'd probably place Nihilus, Revan, and Tyrannus in some arrangement as the next three.

Team 1 in a curbstomp, unless you're not talking full potential.

He's not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's not.

Well now how do you know? Are you, like, sleeping with him or something?

Well the teams aren't the only thing 'at peak' if you know what I mean. awepedo

Naw, but 'at peak' doesn't mean hypothetical full-potential versions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well the teams aren't the only thing 'at peak' if you know what I mean. awepedo

I don't.



I WILL NOT ASSUME UNTIL THE MOOSE HIMSELF SPEAKS

Moose can't speak you heathen bastard.

oh

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Agreed. The teaser trailer for TFU II with the budding battle on Hoth and the rampant Force mastery on behalf of Starkiller made me want to hate-vomit. I can understand movie characters having low showings simply to keep them in line with GL's vision, and accepting EU characters as overblown and exaggerated keeping in line with the canon policy of "It gets blurrier as you move away from movie canon blah blah", but the whole Force choking a battalion and then Dark Phoenix-ing them with the Force is OP.

This made me puke...


Anyway the game was major lulz worthy. At one point, Starkiller talks to Yoda for like half a minute and then tells SK to follow his vision. Wnen does Yoda ever do that, in fact he always warns people about visions and the danger of pursuing them. Really the entire scene just seemed like Yoda wanted to rid of Starkiller.

"Not the one I want are you. Now get the **** out of my swamp you will."

Well since you all hate it, I love it.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Huh, interesting placements.

I don't see Zonakin repeating the same treatment against Windu.

Considering Zonakin is tapping his maximum potential in an extremely rare and almost isolated event, it's assumed that he could destroy anybody if he got in close. Still, Zonakin is effective, but not sustaining nor is he indicative of typical Lil' Annie's fighting style. He's hypothetical, like Darth Yoda.



Nihilus should be ranked higher by virtue of his alien nature, and the fact that he can sap life and Force better than anyone. He was literally undone by a hole in the Force, not by sheer strength or cunning. Also, Adas, Sadow and Ragnos are higher tier masters of the Dark Side and likely a rival for any one on that list. They should be given honorable mentions since they cannot be quantified by anything other then reputation and legacy.

Originally posted by ares834
This made me puke...


Anyway the game was major lulz worthy. At one point, Starkiller talks to Yoda for like half a minute and then tells SK to follow his vision. Wnen does Yoda ever do that, in fact he always warns people about visions and the danger of pursuing them. Really the entire scene just seemed like Yoda wanted to rid of Starkiller.

"Not the one I want are you. Now get the **** out of my swamp you will."

Did he just Force push Vader through three or four walls of metal? I think I'm hemorraging.

Teehee, Adas. Its like Anus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Teehee, Adas. I like Anus.


he

I've never heard of Adas actually. He sounds pretty cool, but nothing conclusive to put him in the top 10.

He was strong enough in the dark side that his body was pretty much disintegrating, if I recall correctly.

Starkiller is the weakest link.

What has King Adas actually done?

Originally posted by ares834
What has King Adas actually done?

Drove off the Infinite Empire with a battle axe and his Sith magic. Mind you, this is the Sith species before the arrival of the Dark Jedi. He united Korriban for the first time in recorded history and was its chief warrior. His life is the basis for the sith'ari myth. Also, his holocron was enough to make Freedan Nadd go from a rogue Jedi to the dominating factor on Onderon and worthy of recognition from the Sith lords sleeping on Korriban.

While he hasn't murdered anyone on screen, I'd say he's probably up there, to have accomplished all that before the Sith even had space travel.

I see it as Sidious, Bane, Caedus, Kun, Vader, Nihilus, Revan, Tyrannus, Ragnos, and Zannah forming the top ten.

Then it becomes a pain to match up. Traya, Qel-Droma, Sadow, and Kas'im all were mighty Sith.

Give some love to Krayt, huh?

I hate Krayt and the whole One Sith arc. Seriously, A'Sharad Hett?! Wtf, are you kidding me?

And the Jedi Order is destroyed again. Oh that's nice and not unoriginal at all.

Originality hasn't been seen in Star Wars for a long. A long time. Legacy, The Old Republic, Dragonball Z---I uh, mean The Force Unleashed... all ripoffs.

Hah, ya no kidding

Nihilus 4th?

It's hard for me to rank Nihilus simply because he is a bloody "wound in the Force" and can suck up lives as if he were chomping on a burrito. He's more hungry than alive.

Granted, I still rank him very high because I see him as a powerful Sith Lord nonetheless. However, I like to think in a combat situation, he just has a potent Force Drain, and therefore can be defeated by stronger Sith Lords.

If N. is correct and "at their peak" does not refer to full potential, then I'm perhaps inclined to side with team two. Team one can only win by the merit of Luke, as Starkiller isn't in Palpatine's league.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
It's hard for me to rank Nihilus simply because he is a bloody "wound in the Force" and can suck up lives as if he were chomping on a burrito. He's more hungry than alive.

Granted, I still rank him very high because I see him as a powerful Sith Lord nonetheless. However, I like to think in a combat situation, he just has a potent Force Drain, and therefore can be defeated by stronger Sith Lords.

My own opinion is that the Drain is enough to beat pretty much most combatants. Though I'd also rate his TK really high. The only thing that holds him back is the lack of actual combat knowledge, so we can't rule out him just being blitzed. Though in my own personal opinion I'd say it would be pretty hard for him to be blitzed given his lack of a physical body. It would take either time or esoteric methods to kill him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My own opinion is that the Drain is enough to beat pretty much most combatants. Though I'd also rate his TK really high. The only thing that holds him back is the lack of actual combat knowledge, so we can't rule out him just being blitzed. Though in my own personal opinion I'd say it would be pretty hard for him to be blitzed given his lack of a physical body. It would take either time or esoteric methods to kill him.

I moderately agree. But I think ubers such as Sidious, Bane, Kun, Caedus, and Vader would prevail.

When have Caedus or Vader ever done something as impressive as use the Force on a planetary scale?

Probably, if Nihilus stuns them first.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When have Caedus or Vader ever done something as impressive as use the Force on a planetary scale?

Using the Force on a massive scale doesn't ensure automatic victory in combat.

Think of Bastila. She used her Battle Meditation to help the Republic capital ship fleet destroy the Star Forge. This was on a massive/planetary scale. But that doesn't mean she's better than everyone else.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Using the Force on a massive scale doesn't ensure automatic victory in combat.

Think of Bastila. She used her Battle Meditation to help the Republic capital ship fleet destroy the Star Forge. This was on a massive/planetary scale. But that doesn't mean she's better than everyone else.

Ooh. Well said.

Please. Battle meditation is another thing entirely. Throughout history people have used it to such a scale but they have nowhere near the same level of combat prowess. Battle meditation is not a direct combat ability, whereas the Drain is. Its an innate ability that a few individuals have that doesn't correlate with power.

Arguing that scale has no effect on a persons victory chances is like me saying that just because Starkiller redirected a Star Destroyer it doesn't mean that he can beat Obi-Wan with the Force. Of course it does. Thats power at a level and effect beyond anything Kenobi can dish out or take, just as Nihilus' Drain is above anything Vader and Caedus can do likewise.

Nihilus might win if he stuns them first.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its an innate ability that a few individuals have that doesn't correlate with power.

That's not true, IIRC. I believe it is documented that only extremely gifted Force users are capable of battle meditation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please. Battle meditation is another thing entirely. Throughout history people have used it to such a scale but they have nowhere near the same level of combat prowess. Battle meditation is not a direct combat ability, whereas the Drain is. Its an innate ability that a few individuals have that doesn't correlate with power.

Arguing that scale has no effect on a persons victory chances is like me saying that just because Starkiller redirected a Star Destroyer it doesn't mean that he can beat Obi-Wan with the Force. Of course it does. Thats power at a level and effect beyond anything Kenobi can dish out or take, just as Nihilus' Drain is above anything Vader and Caedus can do likewise.

Perhaps, but stating that just because Vader and Caedus haven't done planetary scale Force feats doesn't equate to them being weaker than Nihilus.



This.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Perhaps, but stating that just because Vader and Caedus haven't done planetary scale Force feats doesn't equate to them being weaker than Nihilus.

Well it does to me.

Good, my servant, good.

I'm not your servant.

That was actually for Korto, but....

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not your servant.

I demand that you continue believing that.

No.

wait......

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.

wait......

Victory is mine. You can't have it, I have it, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha it's allllll miiiine.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Good, my servant, good.

What is thy bidding, my master?

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Perhaps, but stating that just because Vader and Caedus haven't done planetary scale Force feats doesn't equate to them being weaker than Nihilus.

Well, since there's no acceptable power levels or milestones for Force Usage, scale is important. From a common sense standpoint, exerting TK to say, hold together a space ship, lift one from a gravity well, or just eat a planet in the Force (and destroy the surface, ftw) implies cosmic levels of powers.

To put this into perspective, Polaris is shittons weaker than Magneto. No one ever assumes that Polaris will beat Magneto in combat. Also, she can't, because he'd smack the crap out of her without even getting up out of his chair.

From a logical standpoint, if A can use cosmic level Force powers repeatedly (and not just circumstantially) and B has only ever demonstrated small scale, extremely local powers, A appears greater than B and may very well beat B in combat.

Also, I don't get why Vader is ranked so high consistently by you. I think you're taking that midi-chlorian stat and applying it across the board as a universal. They didn't have midi-chlorians pre-PT. For all you know, Revan, Kun, and Nadd were pissing out more in a day than Anakin had in his entire body.

I think one of the LotF novels' inside flap described Caedus as on par with Vader's power, or something. That along with TFU has thrown him up there in many minds.

Vader's biggest problems though revolve around:

1. Nerfed potential. He is definitely weaker than PT-Sidious and by extension, Yoda and Mace.

2. Low showings/lack of varied Force knowledge. Even if his TK is buffed in some cases (i.e. in Jedi Trial, he tore apart a ceiling in a moment of rage, but then again Ludo Kressh turned a 15 foot stone statue into dust similarly), it's still very basic. Meat and potatoes. Vader doesn't employ Sith rituals, spells, freezing, invisibility, battle precognition, Spear of Midnight Black, etc. He also shows distinct weakness/etc. to Force lightning from a high level user.

3. TFU is grossly inconsistent. Marek can obliterate and ragdoll a battalion, but Vader can choke him and HE IS HELPLESS OMFG.

Really? Even Luke's little latch-key brats could block TK, dumbass.

4. He's slow and bulky. The image of lumbering and scary Vader in the OT is iconic, but ultimately less battle ready seeming than the lightning fast standards set by the PT and the games/EU.

5. He has a huge breathing device on his chest. FFS, that's like the big red button on a Mega Man boss. All someone has to do is damage that shit and he's gasping for breath, helpless.

I was thinking of the Z on Putty Patrollers.

Spear of Midnight Black... I had to look that up. No one has used it?

Actually, Kyle Katarn uses it, but in the D20 sourcebooks it's a Sith ability.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Well, since there's no acceptable power levels or milestones for Force Usage, scale is important. From a common sense standpoint, exerting TK to say, hold together a space ship, lift one from a gravity well, or just eat a planet in the Force (and destroy the surface, ftw) implies cosmic levels of powers.

To put this into perspective, Polaris is shittons weaker than Magneto. No one ever assumes that Polaris will beat Magneto in combat. Also, she can't, because he'd smack the crap out of her without even getting up out of his chair.

From a logical standpoint, if A can use cosmic level Force powers repeatedly (and not just circumstantially) and B has only ever demonstrated small scale, extremely local powers, A appears greater than B and may very well beat B in combat.

Also, I don't get why Vader is ranked so high consistently by you. I think you're taking that midi-chlorian stat and applying it across the board as a universal. They didn't have midi-chlorians pre-PT. For all you know, Revan, Kun, and Nadd were pissing out more in a day than Anakin had in his entire body.

Yeah, yeah, I do understand the logic behind it. It's just, to me, it's harder to apply that as an argument in battles in which the opponent is a very power Force-user that may not have shown cosmic-level abilities, but still has the potential to defeat an individual who has.

1. What do you mean "they didn't have midi-chlorians pre-PT?" I rank Vader high because despite losing his limbs, he still ends up at least 80% of Sidious, who is arguably the strongest Sith of all time.

2. "He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.

"Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal...Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly."


Rather than attempting to fight through the bulky and heavy armor, Vader fought with it, utilizing the armor's weight and his powerful prosthetics to provide his blows with incredible force, while relying on the main articulation points at the elbows and wrists for precision. With this new form, Vader regained some of his old agility, and his bladework was brutally effective. He never utilized anything less than a killing blow, and his swordplay demonstrated crispness and unpredictability, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he favored. Even the most simplistic moves contained enough strength to nearly disarm his opponents. - Wookiepedia

3. As "grossly inconsistent" TFU is, it now has to be taken into consideration (at least the novel). This has him somehow resisting Force Lightning and being able to overcome TK blows that should have destroyed the "huge breathing device on his chest."

4. In the Conclave at Kessel, he does remarkably well even if he just got into his suit. And later, he slays a resurrected Maul, a product of the "lightning fast standards of the PT."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, I don't get why Vader is ranked so high consistently by you. I think you're taking that midi-chlorian stat and applying it across the board as a universal. They didn't have midi-chlorians pre-PT. For all you know, Revan, Kun, and Nadd were pissing out more in a day than Anakin had in his entire body.

Haha, no. Anakin is the Chosen One who has twice the potential as Sidious simmering in his cells. I know you don't rate Sidious as much as you probably should, but I doubt even you would argue that anyone else in the mythos had as high potential, and by extension midi-chlorian count, as twice that of Darth Sidious.

Erm, Vader doesn't have the power of Sidious though. If your figure is correct, he went from 200% Sidious to 80% Sidious. That's a considerable nerf and puts him well behind all top tier Jedi in the PT.

Anakin still had at least twice as much midi-chlorians as Sidious, as M-count is directly tied to potential in the Force. And no, M-count is per cell, so Anakins disfigurement did nothing to his potential. As Sidious actually tells him, his failure to rise to his potential has nothing to do with his injuries, but rather to do with his own mental deficiencies and psychological problems.

This is true.

But Anakin never realizes his potential.

This is likewise true.

But i like to **** my cat

Starkiller is a *****, Sidious rapes the **** out of him and calls it a day.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say team 1.

Team 2 has much better and cooler characters. But as far as sheer power team 1 has more.