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The Maker personality is nowhere to be found; The Beyonder is in full control of his power...

Fight to the Death or KO; No BFR...who wins?

Hmmm...

No responses; I wonder if people are considering this spite or not...

Dude, who did Post Retcon Beyonder fight? MM with a SLIVER of the power he had hidden within Marsha AND he LOST. So a full cube being lost vs a being with a sliver of the power of half a cosmic cube (MM who was half a cosmic cube left a sliver of his power with Marsha before he merged with the Beyonder to form a full cube being).

Post Retcon Beyonder (with the feeble Maker personality in command) one shotted Thanos with a mere single eyebeam...

A Gungnir weilding Odin was incapable of replicating that feat...

But Thanos survived and went on to beat the Maker. Much later when Aegis and Teneberous were introduced, they were described by Galactus as being FAR more dangerous than the Maker.

As with the Super Adapatoid vs Kubik fight, a sliver of CCU power can be used to duplicate the power of a full cube...

Thus I fail to see the relevance of Post Beyonder losing to Owen under such conditions...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
As with the Super Adapatoid vs Kubik fight, a sliver of CCU power can be used to duplicate the power of a full cube...

Thus I fail to see the relevance of Post Beyonder losing to Owen under such conditions...

Because MM was later killed by Sentry?

Hell Aaron the Rogue Watcher beat MM.

Originally posted by zopzop
But Thanos survived and went on to beat the Maker. Much later when Aegis and Teneberous were introduced, they were described by Galactus as being FAR more dangerous than the Maker.

Thanos only won because the Maker was having a nervous break down and attacked far less forcefully in the rematch than it did during the initial confrontation; compare the magnitude of that lone eyebeam to its other attacks...its night and day.

And sure, T and A were more dangerous; The Maker personality was unbalanced and was subject to sabotage itself (which is EXACTLY what happened during the rematch against Thanos)...

Originally posted by zopzop
Because MM was later killed by Sentry?

Hell Aaron the Rogue Watcher beat MM.

They have been jobbing Owen out lately...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
They have been jobbing Owen out lately...

MM is dead, like the Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker.

In fact, Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker was so over-rated, remember when Thanos stated that, he didn't want to kill Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker's physical body because that would unleash Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker on the universe? Well, Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker's physical body DIED in the Annihilation Event and guess what? Nothing happened.

And like I stated earlier, Galactus himself said that Aegis/Teneberous were FAR more dangerous than the Maker.

Anyway, Post Retcons power prove capable of dealing with Thanos far easier than either Odins or DP Tyrants against Thanos...

I think that speaks volumes...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Anyway, Post Retcons power prove capable of dealing with Thanos far easier than either Odins or DP Tyrants against Thanos...

I think that speaks volumes...

Does it? Odin didn't amp and when Tyrant was about to go for the kill Thanos tped away.

Originally posted by zopzop
MM is dead, like the Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker.

In fact, Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker was so over-rated, remember when Thanos stated that, he didn't want to kill Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker's physical body because that would unleash Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker on the universe? Well, Beyonder/Kosmos/Maker's physical body DIED in the Annihilation Event and guess what? Nothing happened.

And like I stated earlier, Galactus himself said that Aegis/Teneberous were FAR more dangerous than the Maker.

Marvel based inconsistency as pertains nothing happening when its body died...

And I already addressed T and A vs Post Beyonder; T and A would never have a mental meltdown and make themselves vulnerable...but the Maker did...so that makes the Maker much less dangerous than the other 2.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Marvel based inconsistency as pertains nothing happening when its body died...

And I already addressed T and A vs Post Beyonder; T and A would never have a mental meltdown and make themselves vulnerable...but the Maker did...so that makes the Maker much less dangerous than the other 2.

That still doesn't explain why nothing happened when the Maker died. She's dead and gone, like the MM and nothing happened.

In fact, unless I'm mistaken, the SAME writer was involved with the Thanos series that featured the Maker AND the issue during the Annihilation Event that had Maker killed!

Originally posted by zopzop
Does it? Odin didn't amp and when Tyrant was about to go for the kill Thanos tped away.

Odin may not have amped, but he did call Gungnir; evidently he felt the need to bring more firepower into the fight...Odin wasnt having a whole lot of success against Thanos with his handblasts.

And Thanos tanked several attacks from DP Tyrant (one of which was a two handed handblast and the blast that destroyed much of Tyrants base); The Maker took Thanos out with a single eyebeam in comparison...

Originally posted by zopzop
That still doesn't explain why nothing happened when the Maker died. She's dead and gone, like the MM and nothing happened.

In fact, unless I'm mistaken, the SAME writer was involved with the Thanos series that featured the Maker AND the issue during the Annihilation Event that had Maker killed!

The Maker clearly wasnt important to the story, so they ignored it...

Thanos is brilliant..extremely intelligent...he wouldnt have made that claim about the Maker/Beyonder unless it was true.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Odin may not have amped, but he did call Gungnir; evidently he felt the need to bring more firepower into the fight...Odin wasnt having a whole lot of success against Thanos with his handblasts.

And Thanos tanked several attacks from DP Tyrant (one of which was a two handed handblast and the blast that destroyed much of Tyrants base); The Maker took Thanos out with a single eyebeam in comparison...

It's still meaningless in the long run. Characters have low showings and high showings. Fact remains, the very same writer for both events featuring the Maker apparently thought she was "FAR less dangerous" than Aegis or Teneberous. As we saw, Teneberous took Galactus by suprise and still couldn't put him down, till Aegis hit him from behind.

A/T couldn't put down the SS, while Odin one shotted (as has Tyrant) him.

Beyonder wins

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The Maker clearly wasnt important to the story, so they ignored it...

Thanos is brilliant..extremely intelligent...he wouldnt have made that claim about the Maker/Beyonder unless it was true.

I hate to repeat myself (same writer for both stories disagrees), but apparently it wasn't true .

I dont think its meaningless; we have a mutual opponent (Thanos) vs DP Tyrant, Odin, and Post Retcon Beyonder...

PR Beyonder was the only 1 of the 3 that proved capable of one shotting Thanos and he did it with a mere, single, eyebeam...

The others may not have been going all out, but nevertheless, they both put far more into their fights against Thanos than a single eyebeam...

Originally posted by zopzop
I hate to repeat myself (same writer for both stories disagrees), but apparently it wasn't true .

Well we agree to disagree...

I chalk it up to Marvel based inconsistency; just because you have the same writer doesnt mean they are consistent...

Surfer got taken out in two blows against either T or A, but later on tanks 4 attacks from them and remains conscious; inconsistency in the same arc!

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I dont think its meaningless; we have a mutual opponent (Thanos) vs DP Tyrant, Odin, and Post Retcon Beyonder...

PR Beyonder was the only 1 of the 3 that proved capable of one shotting Thanos and he did it with a mere, single, eyebeam...

The others may not have been going all out, but nevertheless, they both put far more into their fights against Thanos than a single eyebeam...

You realize, characters can have different levels of showings in their fights right? Who's to say that Thanos didn't have a low showing vs Maker but high showings vs Odin (or Tyrant)?

That very same Maker was said to be less dangerous than either A/T and it took both A/T to down a Galactus taken by surprise.

Tyant beat Galactus (who had prep) and Odin (sans amps) is stalemating Galactus.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well we agree to disagree...

I chalk it up to Marvel based inconsistency; just because you have the same writer doesnt mean they are consistent...

Surfer got taken out in two blows against either T or A, but later on tanks 4 attacks from them and remains conscious; inconsistency in the same arc!

That still proves my point though. Odin ONE SHOTTED Surfer as has Tyrant. Yet it took "Far more dangerous than the Maker" A/T, multiple shots to down him.

Far more dangerous doesnt equate to far more powerful...

The Maker was mentally weak...which was demostrated on panel...The Maker/PR Beyonder has demostrated more power on panel than either T and A has.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Far more dangerous doesnt equte to far more powerful...

The Maker was mentally weak...which was demostrated on panel...The Maker/PR Beyonder has demostrated more power on panel than either T and A has.

How? And please don't bring up the "universe shaking" fight he had with a sliver of a cube being in power (the same guy that got his butt kicked by Aaron and later went on to be killed by Sentry).

By effortlessly 1 shotting someone (Thanos) that is far more powerful and durable than the Silver Surfer...

Also by creating its own universe...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
By effortlessly 1 shotting someone (Thanos) that is far more powerful and durable than the Silver Surfer...

Also by creating its own universe...

Mephisto and other Hell Lords and demons have their own universe where they are God there. Unlike the Beyonder, it doesn't cease to exist even after they are destroyed (see Mephisto and Satannish as examples). And I bet you'd place demon lords as < Cube Beings.

Thanos could have had a low showing vs Maker or high showings vs Odin and Tyrant. It happens.

Beyonder also lost to MM (who only had a sliver of his half a cube power). MM lost to Aaron and was later killed by Sentry.

Originally posted by zopzop
Mephisto and other Hell Lords and demons have their own universe where they are God there. Unlike the Beyonder, it doesn't cease to exist even after they are destroyed (see Mephisto and Satannish as examples). And I bet you'd place demon lords as < Cube Beings.

Thanos could have had a low showing vs Maker or high showings vs Odin and Tyrant. It happens.

Beyonder also lost to MM (who only had a sliver of his half a cube power). MM lost to Aaron and was later killed by Sentry.

You are moving the goal posts now...

My point was that The Maker/Beyonder has demostrated more power on panel than either T and A via its universe creating feat and by easily one shotting Thanos (when neither of them has proven capable of one shotting the Silver Surfer)...

Also, you might want to call Thanos getting one shotted by the Maker a "low" showing, but PR Beyonder/Maker has better feats than either Tyrant or Odin...

Thus I fail to see how you can call Thanos getting one shotted by such a being a low showing...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You are moving the goal posts now...

My point was that The Maker/Beyonder has demostrated more power on panel than either T and A via its universe creating feat and by easily one shotting Thanos (when neither of them has proven capable of one shotting the Silver Surfer)...

And yet according to Galactus (whose dialogue was written by the same writer that penned the Thanos/Maker showdown), they were MORE dangerous than the Maker. FAR more dangerous in fact.

Fights >>>>>>>>>>>>>Feats.

"Sliver of half a cube MM" beat FULL Cube Beyonder. Same MM was beaten before this by Aaron and later beaten and KILLED by Sentry!

Aside from his original loss vs Galactus billions of years ago (a fight that happened mostly in the form of a flashback so we don't know the circumstances of the loss), Tyrant NEVER lost a fight. He was only put down by the UN.

See the difference?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Also, you might want to call Thanos getting one shotted by the Maker a "low" showing, but PR Beyonder/Maker has better feats than either Tyrant or Odin...

Thus I fail to see how you can call Thanos getting one shotted by such a being a low showing...

FIGHTS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FEATS. Unless you think Mephisto >>>>>> most abstracts in existence.

That being later got it's ass handed to it by Thanos and still later was killed during the Annihilation Event.

More dangerous doesnt equate to being more powerful...

Tyrant failed to do to Thanos with multiple attacks (including the big one that destroyed much of his base) what the Maker easily did with a lone eyebeam...

If you want to look at fights, The Maker defeated Thanos during the 1st fight with a single attack; The Maker hit Thanos...Thanos hit the floor...fight over.

Thanos fared much better against Odin and Tyrant in comparison...

Once again, Thanos never really beat the Maker...the Maker beat itself.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
More dangerous doesnt equate to being more powerful...

Tyrant failed to do to Thanos with multiple attacks (including the big one that destroyed much of his base) with the Maker easily did with a lone eyebeam...

Do you admit that, characters sometimes have high showings and other times low showings?

Do you admit that the same being that "one shotted" Thanos was later beaten and imprisoned by him. And later still killed in the aftermath of the Annihilation Wave attack on it's prison?

Do you admit, a supposedly more powerful version of the being that one shotted Thanos, was beaten by another being said to possess A SLIVER of HALF it's power? And that being himself was beaten earlier to this fight by a Watcher and then later killed by Sentry?

Do you admit that Thanos had an item of Tyrant's when he fought him? That same item that was said by Terrax to be "both his greatest strength and his biggest weakeness should it be turned against him"? Do you also admit that Thanos NEVER beat Tyrant and fled once Tyrant was about to get serious?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
If you want to look at fights, The Maker defeated Thanos during the 1st fight with a single attack; The Maker hit Thanos...Thanos hit the floor...fight over.

Thanos fared much better against Odin and Tyrant in comparison...


If characters were portrayed as EXACTLY the same during their entire career in comics, you'd have a point. But it's not beyond reason to chalk that encounter up as a low showing for Thanos or say that Thanos had high showings vs Odin (unamped) and Tyrant (amped by his Orb).

That orb was being used as an offensive weapon against Tyrant...it didnt have anything to do with Thanos's durability; The Maker overcame that durability with a single attack...Tyrant couldnt put Thanos down with multiple attacks.

PR Beyonder has better feats than Tyrant, so how is being one shotted by The Maker a low showing?

I have already adressed the rest of your post...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
That orb was being used as an offensive weapon against Tyrant...it didnt have anything to do with Thanos's durability; The Maker overcame that durability with a single attack...Tyrant couldnt put Thanos down with multiple attacks.

PR Beyonder has better feats than Tyrant, so how is being one shotted by The Maker a low showing?

I have already adressed the rest of your post...

Mephisto has better feats than Tyrant and yet Mephisto fought Galactus to a stalemate in his realm (and Tyrant owned a Galactus with prep).

Fights >>>>Feats.

Even if you are right, that Maker put down the exact same Thanos that fought Odin and Tyrant, Thanos later went on to beat the Maker. Thanos never beat Odin or Tyrant. He RAN from Tyrant.

Now let's put this fight into perspective.

Full Beyonder LOST vs Sliver of half a cube being MM

MM lost to Aaron the Rouge Watcher (easily too)

MM lost to Sentry.

Galactus said A/T were far more dangerous that the Maker (when her physical body died and nothing happened, she stayed dead) and it was the same writer to both events. It took both A/T to down a Galactus taken by suprise, but Tyrant beat a Galactus fully fed with prep.

You are using circular logic; Molecule Man isnt in this thread, so his jobbing episodes arent relevant...

Since PR Beyonder and DP Tyrant have never fought, you gotta look at feats and fights against mutual foes; PR Beyonder has better feats and a better showing against a mutual opponent...

The one fight where The Maker lost to Thanos, it beat itself; it sabotaged its offensive output and it made itself vulnerable...

But when The Maker wasnt "trippin" it beat Thanos like an insect; Tyrant failed to do this against Thanos...Thanos was much more than something that Tyrant could casually oneshot.

Originally posted by zopzop
Fights >>>>>>>>>>>>>Feats.
Originally posted by zopzop
FIGHTS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FEATS
Originally posted by zopzop
Fights >>>>Feats.

Fights are feats.

Didn't read the rest of this thread, looked too much like a big temper tantrum.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You are using circular logic; Molecule Man isnt in this thread, so his jobbing episodes arent relevant...

See this? How was MM jobbing? Since his return from Cube form and reclaimed the sliver of the power he had with Marsha. He fought : Klaw, Aaron, Beyonder, and Sentry.

He LOST 3 of those 4 fights and died in the last one.



And you also got to take into consideration character showings. Was Thanos having a low showing vs Maker? Or high showings vs Odin and Tyrant?

Because going again by opponents, FULL BEYONDER not deranged Maker, got owned by Owen. The very same Owen that LOST 3 of his 4 fights post resurrection.

Originally posted by Cogito
Fights are feats.

Didn't read the rest of this thread, looked too much like a big temper tantrum.

Do me a favor? Put me on ignore like you did that other poster? Thanks.

Beyonder wins this easily. It's not a fight, Beyonder stomps him.

@zopzop

We just have differing opinions on these characters; I honestly believe that Thanos simply surviving Post Retcon Beyonders initial attack was a far better feat than withstanding repeated attacks from Odin and DP Tyrant...

Of course, despite all the inconsistencies and outright PIS showings in comics, I believe that CCU's/Cube Beings are atleast 2 Tiers beyond Skyfather as well...


I know you like to reference that Thor Annual that has Thor talking about the power levels, and it would have been cool if Marvel had adhered to that tiering, but it has been shown to be wrong again, and again, and again...

At the end of the day, it actually makes Thor seem like he doesnt know what he is talking about because of its high error rate...

Because of that high error rate, I'd take our tierings (Street Level, Meta, Herald, Trans, Skyfather, Elder God, Cube Being, Abstract, God Tier, TOAA) over Thors any day...

I don't understand how the Maker fits into this entire discussion. The Maker was left out by the threadstarter.

Ever since Beyonder was retconned into an incomplete Cube being in issues of Fantastic Four where (when separated from the Maker persona) he was still powerful enough to wreck multiple dimensions as collateral damage when fighting Molecule Man, two new retcons have thrown the incomplete Cube being retcon into doubt: (i) the Illuminati story that stated the Beyonder was a mutant Inhuman, and (ii) the Spider-Man and the Secret Wars story that had Spider-Man reconfigure the entire 616 universe with Beyonder's powers.

While a Pre Retcon Beyonder was owning the Multiverse in Secret Wars II, a newly Post Retcon Beyonder has always swatted away a normal Galactus like a fly and still wrecked a well-fed Galactus-empowered Doom and, moreover, was supreme in the universe.

This is a stomp. DP Tyrant has no chance here.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

and it would have been cool if Marvel had adhered to that tiering


Very important point there.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

We just have differing opinions on these characters; I honestly believe that Thanos simply surviving Post Retcon Beyonders initial attack was a far better feat than withstanding repeated attacks from Odin and DP Tyrant...

Of course, despite all the inconsistencies and outright PIS showings in comics, I believe that CCU's/Cube Beings are atleast 2 Tiers beyond Skyfather as well...


I know you like to reference that Thor Annual that has Thor talking about the power levels, and it would have been cool if Marvel had adhered to that tiering, but it has been shown to be wrong again, and again, and again...

At the end of the day, it actually makes Thor seem like he doesnt know what he is talking about because of its high error rate...

Because of that high error rate, I'd take our tierings (Street Level, Meta, Herald, Trans, Skyfather, Elder God, Cube Being, Abstract, God Tier, TOAA) over Thors any day...

You want to use that blast that the Maker unleashed on Thanos to make her seem more powerful than Tyrant?

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2526/thanos10015.th.jpg http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2729/thanos10016.th.jpg http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6677/thanos10017.th.jpg http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1286/thanos10018.th.jpg http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5002/thanos10019.th.jpg http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8592/thanos10021.th.jpg

Want to compare that to Thanos' fight vs Tyrant? All because of one blast? Why didn't she blast him like that again? Maybe she tired herself out, because he went on to own the sh|t out of her. Deflecting her blasts, shielding against her blasts, blasting her to her knees. Even Skeet got in a hit and survived the Maker's counter attack.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ever since Beyonder was retconned into an incomplete Cube being in issues of Fantastic Four where (when separated from the Maker persona) he was still powerful enough to wreck multiple dimensions as collateral damage when fighting Molecule Man

You realize that this "feat" has been done so many times it's a meaningless gauge of power?

See Mephisto/Galactus. Mephisto/Satannish Round 1 and Round 2. Arioch/Strange vs Gorath. Amnesiac Odin vs Seth.

Then you have the Aaron vs Uatu fight that took place on every plane of reality simultaneously.

For comparisons sake, the IG affair never cause that kind of collateral damage or operated on that scale. Neither did Thanos with the HotU.

^ You realize that it only becomes meaningless in your eyes when the subject character hasn't performed a similar feat? Absence of collateral damage is never an indication of power, however, the presence of collateral damage is.

DP Tyrant isn't doing sh1t to someone who swatted away Galactus like a fly and curbstomped a well-fed Galactus-empowered being. And those are the least of Post Retcon Beyonder's feats.

DP Tyrant gets curbstomped.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You realize that it only becomes meaningless in your eyes when the subject character hasn't performed a similar feat? Absence of collateral damage is never an indication of power, however, the presence of collateral damage is.

DP Tyrant isn't doing sh1t to someone who swatted away Galactus like a fly and curbstomped a well-fed Galactus-empowered being. And those are the least of Post Retcon Beyonder's feats.

DP Tyrant gets curbstomped.

And yet when it came to FIGHTS. He lost vs MM. The same MM that lost to Klaw, Aaron, and Sentry. You can't even bring up the fact that he was jobbing because, those were the ONLY four fights he had post rez. So he lost to a guy that lost 75% of his fights. Nice.

^ And when it came to fights, Beyonder treated normal Galactus and a well-fed Galactus-empowered Doom like nuisances.

DP Tyrant would be less than a nuisance.

You want to pit DP Tyrant against a jobber Molecule Man, be my guest. That has no relevance here with Beyonder.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ And when it came to fights, Beyonder treated normal Galactus and a well-fed Galactus-empowered Doom like nuisances.

DP Tyrant would be less than a nuisance.

You want to pit DP Tyrant against a jobber Molecule Man, be my guest. That has no relevance here with Beyonder.

Except Post Retcon Beyonder LOST to "Jobber" MM. He LOST to a guy that LOST to Klaw, Aaron the Rogue Watcher, and Sentry (and Sentry wound up killing him!).

And did you fall asleep because Tyrant owned a wed fed and prepped Galactus too and was about to kill him till Morg showed up with the UN.

Is that all you got?

And don't fall back on that "universe shacking/dimensions crumbling" crap. Because Odin/Seth, Galactus/Mephisto, Arioch-Strange/Gorath, Mephisto/Satannish (TWICE!) did it, yet the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy couldn't do that vs Thanos with the IG. Even Thanos with the HotU vs all 616 didn't do it.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except Post Retcon Beyonder LOST to "Jobber" MM. He LOST to a guy that LOST to Klaw, Aaron the Rogue Watcher, and Sentry (and Sentry wound up killing him!).

And did you fall asleep because Tyrant owned a wed fed and prepped Galactus too and was about to kill him till Morg showed up with the UN.

Is that all you got?

And don't fall back on that "universe shacking/dimensions crumbling" crap. Because Odin/Seth, Galactus/Mephisto, Arioch-Strange/Gorath, Mephisto/Satannish (TWICE!) did it, yet the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy couldn't do that vs Thanos with the IG. Even Thanos with the HotU vs all 616 didn't do it. Like I said, I don't care what jobber Molecule Man does. He's fluctuated up and down.

Did you fall asleep when Galactus beat down a FP Tyrant the first time they clashed in the distant past? DP Tyrant using his bio-energy absorption powers isn't going to mean jack against Beyonder. Beyonder straight up overpowered both normal and well-fed Galactus' power twice over like he was a fly without plot device garbage being involved.

Sorry DP Tyrant has not wrecked dimensions as a side-effect of his battles. Sorry DP Tyrant never warped the 616 universe. Sorry DP Tyrant never straight up overpowered Galactus and had to use Galactus' own power/tech to combat him. You can continue crying more about it.

DP Tyrant is a sh1t-stain compared to Post Retcon Beyonder.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Like I said, I don't care what jobber Molecule Man does. He's fluctuated up and down.

Did you fall asleep when Galactus beat down a FP Tyrant the first time they clashed in the distant past? DP Tyrant using his bio-energy absorption powers isn't going to mean jack against Beyonder. Who straight up overpowered both normal and well-fed Galactus' power twice over like he was a fly without plot device grabage being involved.

Sorry DP Tyrant has not wrecked dimensions as a side-effect of his battles. Sorry DP Tyrant never warped the 616 universe. Sorry DP Tyrant never straight up overpowered Galactus and had to use his own power against Galactus. You can continue crying more about it.

DP Tyrant is a sh1t-stain compared to Post Retcon Beyonder.

Sorry DP Tyrant NEVER lost to a guy that LOST to trans tiers, high heralds, and mid meta characters.

And why do you keep referencing the Spiderman and the Secret Wars garbage? That was flashing back to an event that was RETCONNED. Unless you believe that Beyonder assaulted the Celestial "homeworld" and duked it out hand to hand with a few of them

^ Molecule Man got punched out by Cap once. A fluctuating Molecule Man has nothing to do with this.

Don't be a fool. Parts of Secret Wars II was all that what was retconned by Fantastic Four. If Spider-Man and the Secret Wars reportrayed what happened in Secret Wars II, it would have re-retconned that (like Illuminati did). But it didn't. It just added to Secret Wars which was never touched by any retcon. Educate yourself before spouting off more idiotic nonsense.

Cry more about Post Retcon Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>> Galactus >>> FP Tyrant (w/o plot device gimmicks) >>> DP Tyrant (who can use plot device gimmicks to turn Galactus' own power against him). Doom has used plot device gimmicks to turn Galactus' own power against him. Not impressed.

^ What makes the SWII 'retcon' even funnier is that all of Beyonder's feats in that/those stories (including his erasing of Death across the multiverse) are still canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ What makes the SWII 'retcon' even funnier is that all of Beyonder's feats in that/those stories (including his erasing of Death across the multiverse) are still canon.

On panel or in handbooks? It better not be handbooks only.

Beyonder erased Death across the multiverse on panel during SWII. Her 2006 OHOTMU bio still references that as canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder erased Death across the multiverse on panel during SWII. Her 2006 OHOTMU bio still references that as canon.

So nothing on panel but a OHOTMU reference?

Originally posted by zopzop
So nothing on panel but a OHOTMU reference? Read my post.

In Secret Wars II, Beyonder erased Death across the multiverse. Death's official bio still directly referenced that event, subsequently solidifying its canonicity.

Originally posted by zopzop
So nothing on panel but a OHOTMU reference? Are...are you serious?

Originally posted by Mindset
Are...are you serious?

I thought Handbook info < on panel evidence. Something change?

Originally posted by zopzop
I thought Handbook info < on panel evidence. Something change? No.

Neither did the fact that Beyonder erased Death on panel...

^ Srsly. What's not computing? Is what I said too complicated?

Originally posted by Mindset
No.

Neither did the fact that Beyonder erased Death on panel... Originally posted by Galan007
^ Srsly. What's not computing? Is what I said too complicated?

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8225/fantasticfourannual2351.th.jpg

Kosmos : Kubik I've met these beings in my previous existence
Kubik : No, you encountered shadows/reflections of them. Partial incarnations sent by the great powers to ease your transition into awareness. You never fought against them as you believed. Still they concern themselves with creatures as insignificant as ourselves.

Beyonder destroys Death during SWII:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2593/25621351.th.jpg http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/4469/25231840.th.jpg
---
Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio confirms the above:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1208/33771459.th.jpg
(see the outlined portion)


Some of Beyonder's feats in SWII (mainly those pertaining to Celestials) were retconned. Most of his other feats, however, (such as the one I posted above) are still canon to this day.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder destroys Death during SWII:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2593/25621351.th.jpg http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/4469/25231840.th.jpg
---
Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio confirms the above:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1208/33771459.th.jpg
(see the outlined portion)


Some of Beyonder's feats in SWII (mainly those pertaining to Celestials) were retconned. Most of his other feats, however, (such as the one I posted above) are still canon to this day.

That's nice. But check the issue. Kubik was giving a tour of the Universe to Kosmos and that's when she stated she met these beings. Then he corrected her. Fantastic Four Annual 23.

So unless you got on panel proof disputing this, there's nothing to discuss.

You can't really be serious, can you?

a.) In the F4 book you mentioned, Death was never shown, mentioned, or even alluded to.
b.) The F4 annual was released in 1990. The Death bio I posted was released in 2006. The most current info = the most canonical, and the most current info solidifies Beyonder erasing/recreating Death during SWII as 100% canon.

This isn't hard.

Originally posted by Galan007
You can't really be serious, can you?

a.) In the F4 book you mentioned, Death was never shown, mentioned, or even alluded to.
b.) The F4 annual was released in 1990. The Death bio I posted was released in 2006. The most current info = the most canonical, and the most current info solidifies Beyonder erasing/recreating Death during SWII as 100% canon.

This isn't hard.

Are YOU serious?

The Cosmic Tour covered everyone from the PF up the LT and everything in between. Order, Chaos, Mephisto and other demons, Death, the Watchers, the Celestials, Galactus (so much for that "win" against him), etc...

So ON PANEL we have this information that is more recent that SWII incident and all you have is an incorrect Handbook entry.

^ I was always under the impression that the "beings" referred to were the Celestials as the prior page focused on them.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I was always under the impression that the "beings" referred to were the Celestials as the prior page focused on them.

Except for the fact that they encounter MANY beings prior and in that same "Tier" as the Celestials there were other powers and principalities.

It don't get much clearer than that.

So unless this changed ON PANEL at a later date, it stands. And if it did change, can someone post a scan?

Originally posted by zopzop
Are YOU serious?

The Cosmic Tour covered everyone from the PF up the LT and everything in between. Order, Chaos, Mephisto and other demons, Death, the Watchers, the Celestials, Galactus (so much for that "win" against him), etc...

So ON PANEL we have this information that is more recent that SWII incident and all you have is an incorrect Handbook entry. Death wasn't mentioned as one of the beings Kosmos never "really" encountered. She was shown in her totality later on in the issue. That is all.

This is ridiculous. The aforementioned happenings in SWII were solidified by Death's OFFICIAL bio as recently at '06. What's not computing, bud?

Originally posted by zopzop
Except for the fact that they encounter MANY beings prior and in that same "Tier" as the Celestials there were other powers and principalities.

It don't get much clearer than that.

So unless this changed ON PANEL at a later date, it stands. And if it did change, can someone post a scan? I think it'd be clearer if you simply post the page immediately preceding the one you posted.

Originally posted by Galan007
Death wasn't mentioned as one of the beings Kosmos never "really" encountered. She was shown in her totality later on in the issue. That is all.

This is ridiculous. The handbook is solidified by the showings in SWII. What's not computing, bud?

The fact that my scan POST DATES SWII and all you have is a handbook entry. Produce a scan on panel that says the Beyonder killed Death and I'll gladly STFU.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think it'd be clearer if you simply post the page immediately preceding the one you posted.

You're gonna have to wait. I'm on my ipad now and the scan is on my main pc.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1208/33771459.th.jpg

Can you please "gladly STFU" now?

Originally posted by Galan007
Can you please "gladly STFU" now?

That's a HANDBOOK ENTRY.

ON PANEL EVIDENCE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HANDBOOK.

The handbook entry correlates with, and solidifies, on panel showings, kiddo. That's the best type of comic book evidence that exists. Not joking.

Originally posted by Galan007
The handbook entry correlates with, and solidifies, on panel showings, kiddo. That's the best type of comic book evidence that exists. Not joking.

You'd best be joking. As Handbooks aren't proof of anything.

On panel, we have Kubik stating she never fought or encountered ANY of these beings they are seeing on their tour in her former existence, only shadows sent by the great powers to ease the Beyonder into awareness.

It's right there on panel! Now produce on panel evidence that this was changed/retconned into something different.

Let me get a mod to come in here and give the final verdict. I can't tolerate this level of idiocy for much longer.

Originally posted by Galan007
Let me get a mod to come in here and give the final verdict. I can't tolerate this level of idiocy for much longer.

Be sure to tell the Mod my ON PANEL scan is more recent than anything you've introduced. And all you got is a handbook entry.

I sent a mod the link to this very thread. We'll see what he has to say.

Originally posted by zopzop
You'd best be joking. As Handbooks aren't proof of anything. Considering your past reliance on handbooks, I don't understand where this sudden vitriol towards them comes from.

Whatever. I'll wait for when you post the scan of the page preceding the one you're discussing.

Originally posted by Galan007
I sent a mod the link to this very thread. We'll see what he has to say.

thumbup1

^ I could post it, but I want him to see it before anyone.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Considering your past reliance on handbooks, I don't understand where this sudden vitriol towards them comes from.

Because I've learned my lesson?

I'll post the whole damn thing. That way you can see how far above them Death was.

-waits for said scans to be posted-

The only thing I left out is when she pops into existence and peppers Kubik with questions.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9480/fantasticfourannual2348.th.jpg http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3356/fantasticfourannual2349.th.jpg http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/619/fantasticfourannual2350.th.jpghttp://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8225/fantasticfourannual2351.th.jpg http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2725/fantasticfourannual2352.th.jpg http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4043/fantasticfourannual2353.th.jpg http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4192/fantasticfourannual2354.th.jpg http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/2390/fantasticfourannual2355.th.jpg

Ok, so the question is, going by what you guys have said, is whether Beyonder wiping out death is still canon or not.

Now, I'll be honest, I know jack shit about Beyonder, so I have to go by what you guys tell me. From first appearances, it looks like continuity just wasn't adhered to, and we have two conflicting comics.

Ok, I did a quick google to read more about the guy, and it says he destroyed then resurrected Death. Anyone want to clarify that for me, please?

*see the OHOTMU entry I posted on the last page.*

Originally posted by -Pr-
Ok, so the question is, going by what you guys have said, is whether Beyonder wiping out death is still canon or not.

Now, I'll be honest, I know jack shit about Beyonder, so I have to go by what you guys tell me. From first appearances, it looks like continuity just wasn't adhered to, and we have two conflicting comics.

Ok, I did a quick google to read more about the guy, and it says he destroyed then resurrected Death. Anyone want to clarify that for me, please?

It said so in a Handbook entry referencing events during SWII when Beyonder was the most powerful being in existence.

Later he was retconned into merely being half a cosmic cube, with Molecule Man being the other half. They merge and the new being is called Kosmos. That's the person Kubik is giving a tour of the universe for.

As they ascend the various levels of creation, she mentions that she's encountered these beings in her previous existence (as the Beyonder).

Kubik tells her no, they were just shadows of the real beings the great powers of the multiverse used to ease you into awareness. Then he mentions how they are insignificant to them.

Notice who is on the next level of existence? D E A T H.

Originally posted by Galan007
*see the OHOTMU entry I posted on the last page.*

Oh ok.

Originally posted by zopzop
It said so in a Handbook entry referencing events during SWII when Beyonder was the most powerful being in existence.

Later he was retconned into merely being half a cosmic cube, with Molecule Man being the other half. They merge and the new being is called Kosmos. That's the person Kubik is giving a tour of the universe for.

As they ascend the various levels of creation, she mentions that she's encountered these beings in her previous existence (as the Beyonder).

Kubik tells her no, they were just shadows of the real beings the great powers of the multiverse used to ease you into awareness. Then he mentions how they are insignificant to them.

Notice who is on the next level of existence? D E A T H.

I fail to see how any of that contradicts what Galan is saying.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I fail to see how any of that contradicts what Galan is saying.

Kosmos says she's encountered these beings before in her previous existence as the Beyonder, Kubik tells her no she only encountered shadows of their true self because the great powers of the multiverse wanted to ease her into awareness.

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8225/fantasticfourannual2351.th.jpg

The Beyonder never killed Death, beat the Celestials up, or cowered the great powers of the multiverse. It was all an act to ease him into awareness.

Ok, so you're saying that him destroying Death was retconned? As well as everything else?

Hilarious thread.

Beyonder--in any version not named The Maker--wins.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Ok, so you're saying that him destroying Death was retconned? As well as everything else? He's saying that it wasn't the 'real' Death Beyonder erased/recreated -- even though Death's OHOTMU entry says it was.

Originally posted by Galan007
He's saying that it wasn't the 'real' Death Beyonder erased/recreated -- even though Death's OHOTMU entry says it was.

Oh, okay.

Then no, I have to go with what you said. A handbook alone isn't evidence, but they can be used to backup on-panel statements. In this case, the evidence that I can see is both more specific and definitive.

Originally posted by zopzop
You want to use that blast that the Maker unleashed on Thanos to make her seem more powerful than Tyrant?

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2526/thanos10015.th.jpg http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2729/thanos10016.th.jpg http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6677/thanos10017.th.jpg http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1286/thanos10018.th.jpg http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5002/thanos10019.th.jpg http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8592/thanos10021.th.jpg

Want to compare that to Thanos' fight vs Tyrant? All because of one blast? Why didn't she blast him like that again? Maybe she tired herself out, because he went on to own the sh|t out of her. Deflecting her blasts, shielding against her blasts, blasting her to her knees. Even Skeet got in a hit and survived the Maker's counter attack.

She didnt blast him like that again because she was sabotaging herself!

Its right there on panel; she's losing it and having a nervous breakdown...thats the ONLY thing that allowed Thanos to have success against her/it. Your scans fully support my argument.

When she wasnt her own worse enemy, she took Thanos out with one simple eyebeam (from one eye at that); Tyrant was incapable of that kind of power output even when using both hands and again when clenching up with Thanos and blasting him with the attack that leveled his base.


And your speculation that her initial attack on Thanos made her tired is baseless; there is NO indication that that attack had drained her (it was a lone eyebeam from a single eye) in any significant way...

The fact of the matter is that the Maker attacked Thanos far less forcibly in the rematch than it did initially...

The Maker/Post Retcon Beyonder made very short work of Thanos when it wasnt having a mental meltdown very easily; this is something DP Tyrant was not able to accomplish...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
She didnt blast him like that again because she was sabotaging herself!

Its right there on panel; she's losing it and having a nervous breakdown...thats the ONLY thing that allowed Thanos to have success against her/it. Your scans fully support my argument.

When she wasnt her own worse enemy, she took Thanos out with one simple eyebeam (from one eye at that); Tyrant was incapable of that kind of power output even when using both hands and again when clenching up with Thanos and blasting him with the attack that leveled his base.


And your speculation that her initial attack on Thanos made her tired is baseless; there is NO indication that that attack had drained her (it was a lone eyebeam from a single eye) in any significant way...

The fact of the matter is that the Maker attacked Thanos far less forcibly in the rematch than it did initially...

The Maker/Post Retcon Beyonder made very short work of Thanos when it wasnt having a mental meltdown very easily; this is something DP Tyrant was not able to accomplish...

No read the scans again. Thanos said that her taking mortal form made her vulnerable. That's it. He survived her best, then put her down. Look at Skeet! Even she took the fight to the Maker AND survived!

Fact remains, that she COULD NOT put Thanos down and in the end he wound up winning (blocking her attacks, deflecting her attacks, putting her down to her knees. Maker was even forced to block an attack from Skeet and couldn't kill Skeet).

Originally posted by zopzop
No read the scans again. Thanos said that her taking mortal form made her vulnerable. That's it. He survived her best, then put her down. Look at Skeet! Even she took the fight to the Maker AND survived!

Fact remains, that she COULD NOT put Thanos down and in the end he wound up winning (blocking her attacks, deflecting her attacks, putting her down to her knees. Maker was even forced to block an attack from Skeet and couldn't kill Skeet).

Compare the maginitude of her initial attack on Thanos to the rest of them; you have the scan...its no contest...that initial attack contained far more punch than her attacks on Thanos later on and the one that Skeet survived.

And surely you are not arguing wether the Maker was having a meltdown or not...

Thanos beat a mentally incompetent Maker...you really want to use that as your counter argument as wether or not the Maker/Post Retcon Beyonder was more powerful than DP Tyrant?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Compare the maginitude of her initial attack on Thanos to the rest of them; you have the scan...its no contest...that initial attack contained far more punch than her attacks on Thanos later on and the one that Skeet survived.

And surely you are not arguing wether the Maker was having a meltdown or not...

Thanos beat a mentally incompetent Maker...you really want to use that as your counter argument as wether or not the Maker/Post Retcon Beyonder was more powerful than DP Tyrant?

Well considering the fact that she was having a "MENTAL" breakdown and Oracle beat her earlier by shutting down her MIND. This has no bearing on her power output.

Thanos was blocking, deflecting, and shielding against her attacks this time she didn't take him by surprise.

Originally posted by zopzop
Well considering the fact that she was having a "MENTAL" breakdown and Oracle beat her earlier by shutting down her MIND. This has no bearing on her power output.

Thanos was blocking, deflecting, and shielding against her attacks this time she didn't take him by surprise.

No bearing on power output?

So the attack that did the following to Thanos is in anyway comparable to those that came later!? We are at odds then as we agree to disagree...

The attacks that came later were weaksauce compared to the one that took out Thanos initially and you know that zopzop...

That lone eyebeam>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all those other attacks combined.

Here we go...look at that, single eye, eyebeam:

Look at the maginitude of that attack; the attacks that came after this are NOTHING compared to this and you know it...blocking and deflecting is meaningless against this:

And of course the aftermath of that attack...

Effortless one shot of Thanos; DP Tyrant nor Odin were able to match the power output of that lone eyebeam...and none of the Makers attacks combined from the later encounter matched that as well

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Effortless one shot of Thanos; DP Tyrant nor Odin were able to match the power output of that lone eyebeam...and none of the Makers attacks combined from the later encounter matched that as well

"Effortless" cheap one shot vs Thanos round 1. Then couldn't put him down to save her life (literally) round 2.

Cheapshot?

Thanos was facing her, spoke to her, she spoke back, then she proceeded to blast him away like an insect; against such an awesome attack, it wouldnt have mattered if he was bracing anyway...

As for round 2, the evidence is on panel; she didnt attack with a fraction of the force she was capable of bringing into the fray...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Cheapshot?

Thanos was facing her, spoke to her, she spoke back, then she proceeded to blast him away like an insect; against such an awesome attack, it wouldnt have mattered if he was bracing anyway...

As for round 2, the evidence is on panel; she didnt attack with a fraction of the force she was capable of bringing into the fray...

There's evidence? Really? Because before she "one shotted" him with that cheap shot, he only had a disagreement with her and she let loose. Second round, he claims he hurt her and yet she couldn't put him down again. It's right there on panel.

Again, I disagree that it was a cheapshot; his back wasnt to her...she didnt distract him then attack...she spoke to him, looked him in the eye, then blasted him to kingdom come with a mere eyebeam.

In the rematch, none of her attacks packed the power of that eyebeam; the visual evidence is on panel...

None of Odins or Tyrants attacks on Thanos matched that eyebeam as well...again, the visual evidence is overwhelming.

And besides, The Maker was crying and talking crazy during the 2nd encounter with Thanos; if you are willing to argue that she wasnt having a nervous breakdown and wasnt sabotaging itself, then there is nothing more we can say on that matter...

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, okay.

Then no, I have to go with what you said. A handbook alone isn't evidence, but they can be used to backup on-panel statements. In this case, the evidence that I can see is both more specific and definitive.

It's that handbook statement referencing this event:

Secret Wars II #6 (December 1985)
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/4469/25231840.th.jpg

See that "flat faced" being all the way to the left in the top panel? That's the Celestial "One Above All", that black being with "antlers" in the center of the top panel is Eternity, the three faced being with the purple veil and yellow skin to the right is the Living Tribunal. Remember those. They were present when Beyonder "killed" Death.

Now the Retcon

Fantastic Four 319 (October 1988)
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/2734/ff31930.th.jpg http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2488/ff31934.th.jpg
The Beyonder was never omnipotent. He was half a cube being. Neither he nor the Molecule Man are in the same league as Eternity or the Living Tribunal (remember those guys from the previous scan that were present at the trial of Death). The Beyonder and MM then form a complete Cube.

Fantastic Four Annual 23 (July 1990)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/791/fantasticfourannual2346.th.jpghttp://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8225/fantasticfourannual2351.th.jpg
The complete Cube from FF 319 (formed by the Beyonder and MM) becomes the new being Kosmos. This was the issue the "universal tour" Kubik gave Kosmos took place in. Notice how Kubik called himself and Kosmos "insignificant" compared to these beings. Notice that NO cube beings are present in the hierarchy of power in the universe (even though Shaper of World's was around at that time and is a complete Cube Being).

Fantastic Four Annual 26 (June 1993)
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7699/fantasticfourannual2646.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6145/fantasticfourannual2647.th.jpg http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1387/fantasticfourannual2652.th.jpg
Kubik says, that Celestials are "many orders of magnitude" of power above Cube Beings like him and Kosmos. Then they are in fear of their lives because the un-named Celestial is about to judge them.

Now, if a Celestial, Eternity and the Living Tribunal were there at the trial of Death. If Cube Beings are not in the same league of power as Eternity or the Living Tribunal. If Celestials are many orders of magnitude of power greater than COMPLETE Cube Beings. Why didn't they stop Beyonder (half a Cube Being) from "killing" Death?

Because it was retconned and never happened, just like Kubik told Kosmos in the Fantastic Four Annual 23 scan above, "you only encountered dim shadows of their true forms sent by the Great Powers to ease you into awareness".

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And besides, The Maker was crying and talking crazy during the 2nd encounter with Thanos; if you are willing to argue that she wasnt having a nervous breakdown and wasnt sabotaging itself, then there is nothing more we can say on that matter...

Key word : MENTAL breakdown. That's how Oracle put her down and that's how she was imprisoned in the first place. This didn't affect her power output. She was crying because Thanos HURT her physically.

^ Maker placing herself in a mortal shell made her vulnerable. And Maker is still irrelevant to this thread.

Then what was preventing her from attacking as forcefully as it did during the initial encounter!? NOTHING...nothing other than its state of mind during that incident.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support your speculation that it was weakened in anyway; it simply didnt attack as forcefully as it was capable of...and it didnt attack in such a fashion because of its state of mind...so yeah, it DID sabotage itself.

Unless you want to argue that it was holding back for some other reason...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Maker placing herself in a mortal shell made her vulnerable. And Maker is still irrelevant to this thread.

I agree with the vulnerability part, but The Maker and PR Beyonder are the same being; just depends on which personality is in control...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Then what was preventing her from attacking as forcefully as it did during the initial encounter!? NOTHING...nothing other than its state of mind during that incident.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support your speculation that it was weakened in anyway; it simply didnt attack as forcefully as it was capable of...and it didnt attack in such a fashion because of its state of mind...so yeah, it DID sabotage itself.

Unless you want to argue that it was holding back for some other reason...

It was not holding back. It wanted Thanos dead for hurting it. She tried killing him before with that surprise attack and FAILED. Then when he was ready for her, she couldn't do anything to him and even Skeet forced her to go on the defensive and survived Maker's counter attack.

Originally posted by zopzop
It was not holding back. It wanted Thanos dead for hurting it. She tried killing him before with that surprise attack and FAILED. Then when he was ready for her, she couldn't do anything to him and even Skeet forced her to go on the defensive and survived Maker's counter attack.

If it wasnt holding back/sabotaging itself in round 2, then why didnt its attacks land as forcefully as its initial attack did?

Because Thanos was blocking!? BS...

And if the Maker wanted Thanos dead during the initial encounter, there was NOTHING preventing her from finishing the job...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
If it wasnt holding back/sabotaging itself in round 2, then why didnt its attacks land as forcefully as its initial attack did?

Because Thanos was blocking!? BS...

It was enraged that Thanos hurt it, of course it wasn't holding back. Difference is this time Thanos was ready for it. It's mortal form was "vulnerable" that's it. Not weakened, "vulnerable". And "vulnerable" to what? Mental shut down, EXACTLY like Oracle did previously. That's how she was imprisoned in the first place.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And if the Maker wanted Thanos dead during the initial encounter, there was NOTHING preventing her from finishing the job...

Yet not only didn't Thanos die, he went on to own her and even hurt her physically before shutting down her mind.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet not only didn't Thanos die, he went on to own her and even hurt her physically before shutting down her mind.

1) Thanos didnt die because it decided not to kill him; there was nothing to stop her from finishing him off...absolutely nothing.

2) He only had success against her because she made herself vulnerable...and thats something he had absolutely nothing to do with.


She beat herself; Thanos took advantage of a mentally weak opponent...

But if she has her wits as she did during their initial encounter, shes overwhelming Thanos just as she did the 1st time...

In conclusion (to get back to the core topic) PR Beyonder has better feats of power and a better combat feat against a mutual opponent; the evidence is compelling...PR Beyonder beats DP Tyrant.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
1) Thanos didnt die because it decided not to kill him; there was nothing to stop her from finishing him off...absolutely nothing.

2) He only had success against her because she make herself vulnerable...and thats something he had absolutely nothing to do with.


She beat herself; Thanos took advantage of a mentally weak opponent...

But if she has her wits as she did during their initial encounter, shes overwhelming Thanos just as she did the 1st time...

In conclusion (to get back to the core topic) PR Beyonder has better feats of power and a better combat feat against a mutual opponent; the evidence is compelling...PR Beyonder beats DP Tyrant.

Wrong sorry.

She wanted him DEAD for hurting her. Yet she couldn't kill him. The only "vulnerability" was her mortal form not her power output. She couldn't put him down the second time because he was ready for her. She, however, wasn't ready for him. He blocked her shots, HURT her physically, then shut her down mentally. Her mind was the problem, not her power output. Too bad it wasn't enough for a ready Thanos.

Thanos BEAT Maker, Thanos RAN from Tyrant. See the difference?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I agree with the vulnerability part, but The Maker and PR Beyonder are the same being; just depends on which personality is in control... The same being, where one is completely insane, unstable, and in a vulnerable mortal body... and the other isn't. K. I wouldn't exactly be using the term, "same being."

Yeah, I see the difference; the win vs the Maker was circumstancial (mental instability by the Maker)...

The loss vs Tyrant was a straight up buttwhippin...just like Thanos's initial loss to the Maker!

So The Maker can one shot KO Thanos, but cant kill him (at that point in time of course)...

Ok...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Yeah, I see the difference; the win vs the Maker was circumstancial (mental instability by the Maker)...

The loss vs Tyrant was a straight up buttwhippin...just like Thanos's initial loss to the Maker!



LOL, we are gonna go around in circles LoM. Let's just agree to disagree?cheers

@zopzop

You keep saying that her power output wasnt compromised during the rematch, but still cant answer the question as to why the 2nd set of attacks didnt land as forcefully as the 1st...

Those hand blasts contained as much power as that eyebeam?

No...the visual evidence rules against you; they didnt land as forcefully because he was "blocking!?" BS...and you know it.


The on panel visual evidence is indisputable; the Maker attacked far less forcefully during the rematch than it did initially...after viewing the scans, how could you argue otherwise?

Agree to disagree works for me!

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Post Retcon Beyonder (with the feeble Maker personality in command) one shotted Thanos with a mere single eyebeam...

A it was a suprise cheap shot. Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos only won because the Maker was having a nervous break down and attacked far less forcefully in the rematch than it did during the initial confrontation; compare the magnitude of that lone eyebeam to its other attacks...its night and day.

And sure, T and A were more dangerous; The Maker personality was unbalanced and was subject to sabotage itself (which is EXACTLY what happened during the rematch against Thanos)... The Maker mental brakedown had passed by the time Thanos had fought her, it was stated on panel at least 3 times

Originally posted by Nihilist
it was a suprise cheap shot. The Maker mental brakedown had passed by the time Thanos had fought her, it was stated on panel at least 3 times

Cheapshot?

She didnt hit him from behind...nor did she distract him then attack...he spoke, she spoke, then she looked him in the eye and blasted the living hell out of him; so it wasnt a cheapshot.

As for the mental breakdown, the crying, emotional outbursts, and babbling about being named by someone who is attacking you is normal for those who are not having a mental meltdown (all of which occurred during the rematch)...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Cheapshot?

She didnt hit him from behind...nor did she distract him then attack...he spoke, she spoke, then she looked him in the eye and blasted the living hell out of him; so it wasnt a cheapshot.WTF, Thanos wasnt expecting to fight, he was just going to talk and blasted him by suprise...he had no chance to brace or defend himself.

Being Confused isnt a mental breakdown, her madness had passed which also had nothing to do which the power she was throwing around.