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Who wins?

Sabers, Force and all out.

Fight takes place on Ruusan

Lightsabers: Maul
Force: Zannah
All-Out: Hmm....I'll go with Zannah for now, unless I hear a compelling counterargument.

I'm pretty much inclined to agree with you there

Zannah would win with sith sorcery.

maul sucks in the force if he can not force push obi wan to kill him which if that happened anakin would become mauls secret apprentince and palpatine would find out and then darth vader would be the ultimate star wars character but that did not happen sooo zannah would destroy maul

Zannah beat Bane. Bane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maul. Zannah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maul.

Also if I recall correctly Ruusan does have latent darkside energies to it that she could use for a Naughty Tentacle Attack to utterly butt**** him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah beat Bane. Bane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maul. Zannah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maul.

Also if I recall correctly Ruusan does have latent darkside energies to it that she could use for a Naughty Tentacle Attack to utterly butt**** him.

dontgetit

Obi-Wan beat Anakin. Anakin > Dooku. Obi-Wan Dooku?

I see your most recent ban has apparantly stripped you of your sense of humour heathen.

Obi-Wan beat Rage!Anakin. Zone!Anakin beat Dooku.

Different variables, thus the syllogism doesn't work.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I see your most recent ban has apparantly stripped you of your sense of humour heathen.

Recent ban?



Mace Windu beat Palpatine. Palpatine > Yoda. Mace Windu > Yoda?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Mace Windu beat Palpatine. Palpatine > Yoda. Mace Windu > Yoda?

Now that one does work, although its moot because Zhanna utterly destroys Maul.

Originally posted by Lucius
Now that one does work,

sneer



It would be moot if I were trying to argue against the conclusion reached by young Nephthys. Instead, I am implying that the logic which he used to reach said conclusion isn't sound.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
sneer



It would be moot if I were trying to argue against the conclusion reached by young Nephthys. Instead, I am implying that the logic which he used to reach said conclusion isn't sound.

Common assumptions get taken for granted. We all know Bane has a giant penis and that Zhanna was capable of...

... beating Bane and that Maul has no shatterpoint of McGauffin with which to defeat Zhanna.

Originally posted by Lucius
We all know Bane has a giant penis

This is unattested and, furthermore unlikely: as the Rule of Two was originally entitled the Rule of Two Inches.

I don't get it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't get it.

...really?

C'mon, give Obi-Wan some credit; he too was extremely distraught fighting his "brother" and former Padawan. Yeah, he defeated Ragakin, who's obviously not at the level of Zonakin, but Kenobi wasn't at his best either.

What would the rule be? That only Sith with 2-inch cocks were allowed? What about the chicks? Or freaky alien dudes?

Originally posted by Lucius
...really?

He's perplexed at the idea that someone could possibly have more than One.

Little does he know (pun very much intended) that across the Atlantic, in the mythical land of 'Merica, well endowed men run untamed across the country.

Nah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah.

Are you suggesting that 'Merica is not well endowed?

Personally I always found it slightlly flaccid. Hurhurhur.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I always found it slightlly flaccid. Hurhurhur.

Ziiiing

Well played, my son. Well played.

I think the Zanna Mall would be a neat name.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Recent ban?



Mace Windu beat Palpatine. Palpatine > Yoda. Mace Windu > Yoda? **** no yoda would ha-.............ya know what im not even gonna argue this

With saber Maul, no question in my eyes. His feats and ability surpass Zannah.

In a pure force battle? Zannah. Maul's force abilities seem limited to defense. In all out, though, Maul has the advantage. Zannah's sorcery is unlikely to give her a win against someone as disciplined and focused as Maul who's already faced his worst fears. Zannah's sorcery is also problematic for her as she can't attack well while using it. Maul is likely to figure out the 'kill Zannah while she's using it' tactic pretty quickly.

Holy shit Lightsnake.

HE HAS RETURNED!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
With saber Maul, no question in my eyes. His feats and ability surpass Zannah.

In a pure force battle? Zannah. Maul's force abilities seem limited to defense. In all out, though, Maul has the advantage. Zannah's sorcery is unlikely to give her a win against someone as disciplined and focused as Maul who's already faced his worst fears. Zannah's sorcery is also problematic for her as she can't attack well while using it. Maul is likely to figure out the 'kill Zannah while she's using it' tactic pretty quickly.

then again, Bane didn't figure it out. Bane once stood in a driving rainstorm and kept a single drop of rain from hitting him with his lightsaber. That is the single most impressive saber feat in the mythos, unless you have one that tops it. Zannah was inferior to bane with a saber, but not overwhelmingly so.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Holy shit Lightsnake.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
HE HAS RETURNED!

A wild Lightsnake appears!

Originally posted by truejedi
then again, Bane didn't figure it out. Bane once stood in a driving rainstorm and kept a single drop of rain from hitting him with his lightsaber. That is the single most impressive saber feat in the mythos, unless you have one that tops it. Zannah was inferior to bane with a saber, but not overwhelmingly so. Not really, because rain doesn't move that fast. Furthermore, he'd only have to worry about the rain that was only going to hit him.

So comparatively, blocking a deluge of rain moving at, what, 9 meters a second, isn't a whole lot more impressive than, say, Obi-Wan holding off something like dozens of droids firing at him simultaneously in Labyrinth of Evil.

How big are blaster bolts? I really don't see the difference.

Your last statements true though. That doesn't even make any sense.

I fairly certain raindrops are quite a bit smaller than blaster bolts. But this was on an alien world so I can't be certain of course.

I think its just as much a great feat of skill and precision as it is of speed.

I'm 100% sure that blaster bolts also move a couple hundred times faster than rain drops.

Nah. In the movies they're about baseball speed.

I saw nothing to suggest that.

Your eyes are defective. Take Zams.

I took your Mom last night. She orgasmed 10 times on my massive shlong, but she's not too easy on the eyes.

Wut?

Er... anyway, you can see tracers moving through the air in real life. That doesn't mean they aren't moving faster than sound. So shut your mouth.

but how many raindrops hit your body per second compared to how many blaster bolts anyone has ever had to block? Ki-Adi couldn't even block 3. We are talking about literally hundreds of thousands of raindrops. (he blocked them all until the storm ended. stand in a deluge sometime, and think about blocking it all with something 2 or 3 inches wide.

You said greatest feat of blocking in the mythos.

Obi-Wan was holding off literally dozens of droids who were all firing at him simultaneously, while high on gas. So if you have literally multiple dozens of droids firing at the same time, you're looking at something akin to hundreds of shots at a time, and that's not counting the fact that blaster bolts move at hundreds of times the speed of a rain drop.

It's stupid. Really the only way he could have done it is if he "helocoptered" his blade very fast.

but not all of those bolts were going to be hitting kenobi. (and which feat of kenobi's, specifically, are you talking about?)

gravity guarantees that all of the drops over his' body's volume will hit him if he doesn't block them.

how fast do you find a blaster-bolt to travel, for comparison? I would venture to say that to the naked eye, rain drops move as quickly as blaster bolts. do you have any numbers to offset that observation?

Originally posted by truejedi
but not all of those bolts were going to be hitting kenobi.

How do you know this? He was standing still, in one spot, while they were all firing at him. Furthermore, not all rain drops were going for Bane either, obviously.

What? The fastest rain drops can fall is 10 miles per hour. Do you think blaster bolts move slower than 20 miles an hour?

i'm really not sure how fast a blaster bolt moves. but still. let's table this until the next time you stand in a deluge, and then post and just give me your honest opinion. I had that moment last week. it was pouring, and i thought about Bane blocking EVERY drop. I went inside, after the quick run from my car, and I was impressed.

Fair enough. But only after I become a Jedi and gain the powers of the force, and only after I watch you deflect a storm of blaster bolts with your lightsaber.

I forget the specifics of that passage, does anyone have it in its entirety?

Anything for you babe.



"Feeling a blast of cold wind blow in, he crouched low and opened himself up to the Force, letting it flow through him. Drawing on it to extend his awareness out to encompass each individual bead of rain as it fell from the sky, he resolved not to let a single drop touch his exposed flesh.

He could sense the power of the dark side building inside him. It began, as it always did, with a faint spark, a tiny flicker of light and heat. Muscles tense and coiled in anticipation, he fed the spark, fueling it with his own passion, letting his anger and fury transform the flame into an inferno waiting to be unleashed.

As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts.

The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain. Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses.

For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze. Breathing hard, Bane extinguished his lightsaber. His skin was sheened in sweat, but not a single drop of rain had touched his bare flesh."

lol.

So ****ing stupid...

Definitely stupid as hell but incredibly impressive nonetheless.

No need to thank me gentlemen. Your undying adoration of Lord Bane is thanks enough.


;p

Zannah does unholy things to Maul, he doesn't deserve this.

Blax, I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make. That's obviously my fault, because I am an idiot.

Think about it this way:

Bane is a big guy. He covers probably six square feet when viewed from above, including the area above his arms when they are outstretched. That means that he needs to clear six square feet of water droplets during the deluge, assuming that they are descending straight down.

There is water refilling this area constantly, as new raindrops appear. It doesn't matter so much how fast each individual drop is moving as how frequently the area's water supply is replenished by water droplets. His lightsaber essentially has to multiply its area at all times by an order of magnitude (i.e. factor of ten) to protect him. His lightsaber is moving fast enough to be in ten places at once, at a conservative estimate.

(There is evidence that the number is much, much greater: "howling gale," "driving rain."

^ I brought that up years back, which is why I find the feat so incredible (literally).

Originally posted by truejedi
then again, Bane didn't figure it out. Bane once stood in a driving rainstorm and kept a single drop of rain from hitting him with his lightsaber. That is the single most impressive saber feat in the mythos, unless you have one that tops it. Zannah was inferior to bane with a saber, but not overwhelmingly so.

I find this rather suspect. Zannah realized almost instantly she had to employ Sith sorcery for the same of survival. Bane nearly trampled her underfoot in their early saber engagement and only her exceptional skill at Soresu allowed her to survive.

Furthermore, as pointed out, rain doesn't really move THAT fast. Bane was hitting away drops before hitting him. I consider feats of cutting down multiple soldiers before they can react (Lord Kopecz) or deflecting an utter storm of blaster Bolts (Yoda) or blocking sixteen strikes per second (Obi-wan Kenobi) to be rather on the level or more impressive.

Furthermore, Bane most certainly figured it out. In their duel, Bane realized almost instantly he had to kill Zannah during her sorcery while she was concentrating.

I realize there's an argument to be made that Maul doesn't possess Bane's intellect, but he's an intelligent, analytical and cunning fighter taught to analyze his enemies and any possible weakness. If Zannah has to divert full attention, it leaves her open to Maul to maneuver around her sorcery with exceptional reflex and speed, or hit her with his own force attack while she can't focus on a defensive barrier.

As stated before, Zannah's fear attacks will be close to useless with Maul's mental fortitude.

That is not taking into account the rest of my post where superior feats are pointed out.

What Bane was doing was, to put it bluntly, basic training.

Please don't make me do math.


Six square feet is 864 square inches. Imagine a grid of 1"x1" squares. If a raindrop, traveling at whatever speed, appears in even two thirds of those at any given moment, the lightsaber (which is roughly 3 ft by one inch, or 36 square inches in profile) would have to be in 16 different places at once, assuming that every inch of the lightsaber was deflecting water at every instant during the rainstorm. Now consider the probability that the drops are not all perfectly colinear and increase that number. Not consider that the storm is described as consisting of "driving rain" amidst a "howling gale" and increase the number again to account for the much greater profile that the 2 meter Sith Lord has from the side. Finally, increase the number once more to accomodate the additional area that Bane cleared to provide himself maneuvering room; the text says explicitly that he "twisted, twirled, and contorted his body" to evade raindrops... in a deluge, there are no non-threatened locations except those created by a barrier. Bane was clearing an area greater than the exact surface area of his profile.

Thus, we can be sure that Bane is moving at the most absurdly low estimate at a speed equal to 16 strikes per second, and at a more reasonable guess something like 100 strikes per second.

This pleases me.


I think the 'howling gale' part makes it probable that the rain was falling in a diagonal fashion, as wind makes rain fall as such. So for those of you saying that he must of been helicoptering his lightsaber I don't think so. Less silly therefore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This pleases me.


I think the 'howling gale' part makes it probable that the rain was falling in a diagonal fashion, as wind makes rain fall as such. So for those of you saying that he must of been helicoptering his lightsaber I don't think so. Less silly therefore.

http://www.smythstoys.com/product_images/106747_M.jpg

Well now I just feel stupid. Of course that was the answer.

They are real cheap. Clearly, Bane had access and the means. Therefore, he had one.

Do what now? Unless you're suggesting Maul's mental fortitude was anywhere near Bane's level, he doesn't really stand a chance. As for Bane's rainstorm drill, it was hardly basic training and definitely one of, if not the most impressive display with a lightsaber in the mythos.

Well, I'm not just 'suggesting' that, I'm outright saying it. Maul has nothing he's genuinely scared of. Palpatine forced him to face every fear and conquer it, which incidentally, was the key to breaking Zannah's Sith spell.

In terms of actual will, we've seen Bane flat out lose at the end of Dynasty of Evil. We saw Set Harth, who isn't much to the Sith Lords, claw his way out of the coma. What Zannah's doing is something that can be overcome by fortitude. The entire teachings of the Sith Order was to face one's fears. Maul had all of that literally beaten out of him. We have seen his mental defenses are so grea tthat an Iktochi attempting to read his mind killed himself as a result.

And yeah, that was pretty basic training on Bane's part in the rain. We've seen far more impressive displays of saber feats. Compare Yoda doing pretty much the same thing. Against a clone or droid army. With blasters. That will kill you if they touch you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also if I recall correctly Ruusan does have latent darkside energies to it that she could use for a Naughty Tentacle Attack to utterly butt**** him.

Ambria's Dark Side should be even stronger (What latest Dark Side power did Ruusan have apart from the Thought Bomb, might I ask? And even then, the Valley is just the Force power as opposed to a Dark Side nexus like Ambria)

The tentacle attack has a hideous drawback: She is literally incapable of defending herself during it. It won't take a smart and skilled enemy to realize he has to to avoid the tentacles and behead Zannah.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, I'm not just 'suggesting' that, I'm outright saying it. Maul has nothing he's genuinely scared of. Palpatine forced him to face every fear and conquer it, which incidentally, was the key to breaking Zannah's Sith spell.This is an incredibly poor rationalization on your part, LS. You have a habit of playing psychologist to fictional characters to suit your arguments, and it never works out well. Now, unless:

A. Sidious is on the same level as Zannah in the category of sith illusions

and/or

B. Maul has seen what Bane has seen on the level of said illusions,

then there is nothing to discuss. While Maul is mentally tough, he hasn't shown to be on the same level as Bane, so if Bane went down, Maul goes down harder.


Once again, there's no proof Maul possesses the fortitude of Bane. Bane lost flat out because Zannah overpowered his will and he was half beaten from the tendrils, so logic suggests Maul goes down swinging. Also, not sure how you can compare that Iktochi to Cognus, who very nearly fought Bane to a standstill without any formal jedi/sith training.

I'm sorry, you're now grading a feat based on the potential danger of failing said feat? That's a terrible comparison to make, LS. Succeeding at a feat you would die as a result of failure doesn't make the feat more impressive than another feat. It shows his skill with a saber at best, but on a level of technical display, what Bane did was much more impressive.

Also IIRC Ambria's "Nexus" is locked away and untouchable.

Edit: From Wookie- Thon felt the presence of a number of dark side spirits, way out in the distance beyond his ship's scanners. Thon followed the dark presence until he arrived on Ambria, where he was immediately attacked by the malevolent spirits of the Sith. The Tchuukthai Jedi Master managed to repel them for a time, though soon his stamina became depleted, and he could no longer hold off the dark forces. However, Thon still had a plan, and led the spirits to Lake Natth; he swam out to the center of the lake, and allowed the dark spirits to consume him. However, with one final effort, the mysterious Jedi Master ensnared his foes in a wave of light side energy, confining them the murky waters at the bottom of Lake Natth. The sinister spirits were furious, and often possessed the herds of Hssiss which frequented the lake, and attacked any visitors to the planet. Although they had not been completely defeated, the dark side spirits on Ambria had finally been contained. He unpossessed himself?

LS, you said there are better feats than the rain-blocking feat? I'm going to just have to disagree without more information. Z's post earlier nailed.

Ganner Rhsyode and Luke Skywalker's ass kicking of the Vong come to mind.

Originally posted by ares834
Ganner Rhsyode and Luke Skywalker's ass kicking of the Vong come to mind. Those rank as the greatest of the greatest. Bane is surely up there as well.

I have a truly marvelous proof for the superiority of this feat that the margins of this post are too slim to contain.



off to dinner cya!

Originally posted by Lightsnake




Well, actually it does. When you have a veritable storm of lasers aiming at you from every direction and deflect every single one so that not a single one touches you?


number of lasers per second would come nowhere close to number of raindrops per second.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I see no reason a vastly superior Sith sorcerer with vastly greater experience, materials, knowledge, power and skill would be inferior to Zannah.You'd have to prove that Sidious was a superior sith sorcerer, or even in the same league as Zannah. Claiming he has more overall knowledge means nothing in this instance.



But Bane has will, his lack of talent for the art is irrelevant to his defense against it. You're throwing misdirection around here, again.

Everyone has demons. Just because Bane's manifest themselves in the form of a book doesn't mean they are any greater than Maul's. Once again, he's shown a greater degree of will power than anything Maul has done.

Which is irrelevant because Bane did as well and he was no match for the esoteric sith sorcery.




More misdirection, essence transfer is irrelevant here. Stick on point. Bane was getting his ass beat during the initial sith sorcery when he finally got over it with something we can call a "last grasp." When the tendrils came around, his ONLY chance was essence transfer.

No, it surpasses your belief and nobody elses. All you're doing is giving a brief, yet unimpressive history of Maul's training, and then claiming his mental fortitude surpasses belief. That's not an argument, that's fanboyism.


She was blocking his connection to the force before he had any trouble with the soldiers. Her fighting and force prowess were impressive considering she's had no training. Bane was certainly her superior but considering how he's felled more experienced fighters, she's one powerful force user.

Based on the book you're trying to write about Maul's training.

Sure, when fanboyism gets in the way of objectivity, one can see it that way. I know you're going to try to prolong this argument as much as possible but you're not winning anything with this argument LS. I urge you to approach it from a different direction.



Also, kudos to RH for that incredible display of math skills showing Bane's feat in a more realistic light.

How long is the average storm though?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Which is irrelevant because Bane did as well and he was no match for the esoteric sith sorcery.

Yes he was. He screamed past her fear powers. The tentacles were a different matter and I would say it's doubtful Zannah can use them on Ruusan.

Originally posted by ares834
How long is the average storm though?

Does it matter? If the storm above lasted 24 hours. (decidely longer than the average storm... the number of seconds in 24 hours is...86,400.

412,700,000/86400, is...4,777. In one Cubic Foot. Bane is going to be at least 3 cubic feet... blocking almost 5k raindrops PER SECOND during the course of the storm, PER CUBIC FOOT, IF the average storm is 24 hours, and I bet that is about 24x the average storm.

4777 drops per cubic foot per second. That is way to many.

The downpour lasted 10 minutes. Lets not get crazy people.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes he was. He screamed past her fear powers. The tentacles were a different matter and I would say it's doubtful Zannah can use them on Ruusan. Eventually, he did. Also, Ruusan isn't exactly a light side planet so I think that's too much of an excuse.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The downpour lasted 10 minutes. Lets not get crazy people.

per second. not per rainstorm. it was 5k per second. with a 24 hour storm, when probably it is closer to one or 2 hours. so probably 60k per second.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Eventually, he did. Also, Ruusan isn't exactly a light side planet so I think that's too much of an excuse.

I would have thought a giant wave of darkside energy destroying half the planet would leave something behind personally.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I would have thought a giant wave of darkside energy destroying half the planet would leave something behind personally. Explain how this affected Bane personally or made Zannah's sorcery easier for her? Not to mention, all of this is irrelevant considering this fight is between two dark side users.


Edit: Ambria wasn't a dark side nexus although it had some of the characteristics of one.

I was talking about Ruusan.

Originally posted by truejedi
per second. not per rainstorm. it was 5k per second. with a 24 hour storm, when probably it is closer to one or 2 hours. so probably 60k per second.

Dude that number is wrong. Way wrong. First you are using a number some random dude calculated on google answers. Second, you are using the "little drops" number when the guy specifically refers to the "large drops" as the kind in Thunderstorms. And third, if the number is correct than the average thunderstorm would only cover 3912 square feet...

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking about Ruusan. Oh right. So what is your point exactly?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ambria wasn't a dark side nexus although it had some of the characteristics of one.

The novel mentions that dark side energy was steeped into the very rock and sand. Also, IIRC, in POD Bane realizes the planet has immense dark energy but is unabel to access it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh right. So what is your point exactly?

You said Ruusan wasn't exactly a light side planet and I agreed with you by pointing out that the darkside buttfvcked half the planet at one point. IIRC that sort of thing tends to linger.

s is your problem the source, or the use of the source?

Why are we bringing up Ambria and Ruusan all of a sudden? How would these two planets affect this fight differently?

Zannah's Naughty Tentacle Attack(tm) appears to be formed from pure darkside energy, in the case of when she fought Bane, from the darkside energies on Ambria.

No darkside energies, no attack I guess.

how did she learn the technique if she can only do it on ambria....

by shut up

By making stuff up as you go along to make your argument ironclad, of course. Or by shut up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
by shut up

I'll make a little note:

TJ +1.

Hey its not my argument.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You'd have to prove that Sidious was a superior sith sorcerer, or even in the same league as Zannah. Claiming he has more overall knowledge means nothing in this instance.


In the 'same league?' The ritual he was pulling in Sithisis is more than enough to eclipse Zannah. The sheer fact he mastered the secrets of Naga Sadow's holocron, that he had enough knowledge of sith alchemy and magic to fill enormous books should be...

Look, I'm not saying Zannah's not accomplished, but to claim she's above Palpatine in the art?



No. My point is despite his lack of talent, his will compensated for it. The point I mean to get at is quite apparently that the same can apply to Maul.



Form of a book? Eh?
And where are these amazingly godly feats of Bane's willpower in comparison? Maul has undergone such rigorous mental training, he broke the mind of an Iktochi trying to read him.
And not everyone has demons. It's made quite clear Maul has conquered all fear.



Well, yes he was. He broke out of Zannah's sith spell without too much issue. He failed against the tentacles, but still discerned their weakness in short order (Zannah).

Furthermore, it's noted these were so effective due to Zannah calling upon the dark energies of Ambria:
Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of
Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to
the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand.





It wasn't a fight like that. Bane took it and overcame it, just as he intended to do. Bane had Zannah dead to rights with one more move. If Maul reached her, she would die before she was capable of defending herself (And with no force defense, why couldn't he just crush her throat?) When using the tendrils, her movements are described as slow and clumsy.

Furthermore, Bane was hampered due to near delirium from the pain of the tendrils. This isn't nearly as much an issue for Maul, who possesses a natural resistance to pain and has also been trained to change pain into a strength



What about it is 'unimpressive?' It's noted, consistently, how Palpatine forced Maul to face and overcome fear and pain. That's not something to be shrugged off.
Frankly, Zannah as a sorcerer is inferior in shown feats to Wyyrlok, who's capable of using illusions and the fear spell on multiple enemies with a single gesture and using other force powers and adept saber combat while he does it.

You're not telling me how Maul will lose out to Zannah when he has no fear to consume him. We have seen Maul 's fury literally overload a force dampening field, overcome force lightning (And it is said that move is especially agonizing), among other feats. Maul simply does not feel fear because, like Bane, he's conquered it.

We've seen Bane and Darth Krayt overcome this ability by virtue of overcoming fear. Maul can't do this for what reason?



The moment he realized what she was doing, he ripped that apart like nothing. He didn't even know she was there the first time she did it



She 's a highly trained assassin. Literally, all she managed was a glancing snip on his arm. She also, again, rigged a charge to blind him and blow him back a fair distance, and took advantage of his distraction.
Johun Othone got a hit on Bane once, and a much better one than the Huntress managed, given it nearly severed his hand.



What? Maul's training is one of the most detailed from the various snippets we have.



It's comforting to know very little has changed in my absence here...

It's amazing that the more time goes by, the less intelligent you seem, despite so many opportunities for growth and maturation. To call your "argument" ridiculous would be an understatement, and the fact that it was already regarded as such further convinces me not to get in any more sparring matches with you because frankly, it's not a challenge anymore. The only reason your presence was even acknowledged was because Faunus away for the time being and this is the only argument currently happening. If you want to grow up and maybe attempt to improve your arguments, you may get more responses. Until such time, you'll continue to get this type of awkwardness. Good day kind sir

It's good to see you too, DS.

DS
It's amazing that the more time goes by, the less intelligent you seem, despite so many opportunities for growth and maturation. To call your "argument" ridiculous would be an understatement, and the fact that it was already regarded as such further convinces me not to get in any more sparring matches with you because frankly, it's not a challenge anymore. The only reason your presence was even acknowledged was because Faunus away for the time being and this is the only argument currently happening. If you want to grow up and maybe attempt to improve your arguments, you may get more responses. Until such time, you'll continue to get this type of awkwardness. Good day kind sir

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but I have to throw my agreement in with the consensus that while you've never been noted for your patience or civility, you've been unusually temperamental and disagreeable as of late. I'm not sure as to what we can attribute this, but my current theory involves a combination of sexual frustration and the revelation that Revan 'twas a pawn.

Lightsnake was pretty civil with you and if you can't return the favor, slap him on ignore and don't respond at all.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Not to jump on the bandwagon, but I have to throw my agreement in with the consensus that while you've never been noted for your patience or civility, you've been unusually temperamental and disagreeable as of late. I'm not sure as to what we can attribute this, but my current theory involves a combination of sexual frustration and the revelation that Revan 'twas a pawn.

Lightsnake was pretty civil with you and if you can't return the favor, slap him on ignore and don't respond at all.

If by civil, you mean intentionally prolonging an argument with petty nonsense, as done over the years, then you are correct. I don't recall you ever being patient when dealing with Nebaris, so why should that be any different? No question about my civility and my sexual frustration depends on how much your mother is putting out this week. As for Revan, I'm ok with him not being a pawn

If I may interject, thank you supplier of the quote:

"Maul's upbringing consisted of constant training to become stronger, faster, and smarter than any adversary could anticipate. Zabraks are renowned for their mental discipline, and have a natural ability to withstand physical suffering, and Sidious tested Maul's endurance to the very limits during his training." - The Ultimate Visual Guide, pg. 35

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If I may interject, thank you supplier of the quote:

"Maul's upbringing consisted of constant training to become stronger, faster, and smarter than any adversary could anticipate. Zabraks are renowned for their mental discipline, and have a natural ability to withstand physical suffering, and Sidious tested Maul's endurance to the very limits during his training." - The Ultimate Visual Guide, pg. 35 Congratulations, and this puts him on Bane's level of willpower how? Or are you just playing a game of debating craps? Throwing in a bunch of quotes and pray they somehow help the argument?

DS
If by civil, you mean intentionally prolonging an argument with petty nonsense, as done over the years, then you are correct.



The one hurling insults at a guy who's been nothing but civil with him in this thread probably shouldn't use his free hand to toss around adjectives like "petty" at his victim.



You would be very mistaken. I even remember inviting Nebaris to the Project Holocron thread for his participation.



If this sentence was crafted with the intent to insult, it was something of a misfire. What you just told me is that my mother putting out has absolutely nothing to do with the question of your sexual frustration.



Have you ever heard of the Tragedy of Gideon the Wise? It's not a story that the Antediluvians would tell you: It's a KMC legend of a poster so powerful and so wise that he could even acknowledge weaknesses in those characters whom he cared about. His power of Logic was unnatural. He was so powerful that the only thing he feared was being banned by the Moderators for an entirely bullshit reason. Which, eventually, of course is exactly what happened.

Man DS, cranky much?

Edit: Man Gid, big-headed much?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The one hurling insults at a guy who's been nothing but civil with him in this thread probably shouldn't use his free hand to toss around adjectives like "petty" at his victim.
I believe you and I have different definitions of "civil".




After how many arguments and bans?



The point was that your mother puts out.. Extensively.



Have you heard of something called reality? It's this world we are forced to go into when the world of our dreams turns out to be a farce. It's a world we despise for many many reasons but can't ultimately seem to shake.

Neph
Edit: Man Gid, big-headed much?

The currently dangling betwixt my legs compels me to answer 'yes'. 131

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The currently dangling betwixt my legs compels me to answer 'yes'. 131 Having another romantic evening with your life partner I take it?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The currently dangling betwixt my legs compels me to answer 'yes'. 131

Whats a 'currently'?

DS
I believe you and I have different definitions of "civil".

Given your recent track record and disregard for the likes of Merriam-Webster, I'm not surprised.



Oh God, I've lost track.
But anywho, we certainly had civil discussions. My animosity towards him was short lived.



While that's certainly true, your words failed to deliver such a message.



facepalm

Say one thing about Revan that isn't the product of masturbation fuel or fantasy. Do you think he's perfect?

Neph
Whats a 'currently'?

It's Kentucky slang for " currently."

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Given your recent track record and disregard for the likes of Merriam-Webster, I'm not surprised.
Given your inability to apply definitions to the context in question, I'm not surprised you're not surprised.




Short lived? You mean like close to a year short lived?




Your mother's lips deliver far more than my words ever could.



Fixed for proper context.


Kentucky slang is redundant.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Congratulations, and this puts him on Bane's level of willpower how? Or are you just playing a game of debating craps? Throwing in a bunch of quotes and pray they somehow help the argument?

I will kindly ask for these feats of amazing willpower.

Because I believe commentary about how Maul's entire species has exceptional mental fortitude and an innate resistance to physical pain, honed further to perfection by Palpatine's training is quite significant.

Again, we've seen Maul shrug off getting fried with Force lightning, commenting 'there's no pain where strength lies.'

Mentally, he's beastly.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I will kindly ask for these feats of amazing willpower.

Because I believe commentary about how Maul's entire species has exceptional mental fortitude and an innate resistance to physical pain, honed further to perfection by Palpatine's training is quite significant.Where are you getting this information from? His mental willpower was so tough that he let Obi Wan slice him in half..


We've seen Bane in the middle of a sith ritual, as well as fighting off sith sorcery. We've never seen Palpatine's proficiency anywhere near the level's of Zannah and therefore can conclude that not only did Maul never experience something like this, but he is even more ill equipped to do so.

Compared to some, not to others..

DS
Given your inability to apply definitions to the context in question, I'm not surprised you're not surprised.





How long have you been antagonistic towards Lightsnake?



Terry Schiavo could deliver far more than your words ever could.



I can gladly say many things of this nature, but your deflection indicates some discomfort at the topic. Why dodge, DS? You wouldn't be afraid to confront this, would you?



no u

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
How long have you been antagonistic towards Lightsnake?
It's more on and off than anything as opposed to your 1 year war against Nebaris and his clones.




Which doesn't negate the fact that your mom is extremely talented with her lips.




The deflection is nothing more than an accusation of hypocrisy, rightfully so.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's Kentucky slang for " currently."


suuuuuuuuuuuuuure

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Where are you getting this information from? His mental willpower was so tough that he let Obi Wan slice him in half..


What does...that have to do with anything? Bane's mental fortitude was so strong, a guy who's barely Padawan level nearly severed his hand, so? It dosn't matter how strong you are mentally if a glowing plasma blade bisects you.

And are you going to tell me Bane's never had bouts of arrogance? It's nearly gotten him killed multiple times



We've 'never seen Palpatine's profiency near that level?' Okay, Bane was channeling the others' with the ritual. Palpatine was actively using Sith magic to create storms over the galaxy and summon the ghosts of dead Sith.

I'm not sure how this is debatable. Palpatine has mastered all of Naga sadow's secrets according to JEdi vs. Sith. That alone puts him farther than Zannah could ever aspire to. What are her amazing feats that put her above Palpatine, who had direct access to the Sith of old and their holocrons?

By this reasoning, Aleema is Frank's superior at the art, too.

DS
It's more on and off

Concession accepted.



I've already acknowledged my mother's extensive talent for oral persuasion, why must you keep bringing it up? It's a legitimate part of her C.V.



It would only be hypocrisy if I were incapable of doing the same,



^ Which isn't the case. 'Pawn', 'civility', and 'hypocrisy'... are you familiar with the definitions of any word?

Can you rise to the challenge or not, DS? For a self-proclaimed badass, I'm woefully unimpressed by your performance. Be a real manJew and stop deflecting before I shunt you off to the crematorium.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir


^ Which isn't the case. 'Pawn', 'civility', and 'hypocrisy'... are you familiar with the definitions of any word?

Can you rise to the challenge or not, DS? For a self-proclaimed badass, I'm woefully unimpressed by your performance. Be a real manJew and stop deflecting before I shunt you off to the crematorium.

Of course, are you?

DS
Of course, are you?

uh ya

So, if you will please, an explanation as to the extent of your Revan fanboyism?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We've 'never seen Palpatine's profiency near that level?' Okay, Bane was channeling the others' with the ritual. Palpatine was actively using Sith magic to create storms over the galaxy and summon the ghosts of dead Sith.

I'm not sure how this is debatable. Palpatine has mastered all of Naga sadow's secrets according to JEdi vs. Sith. That alone puts him farther than Zannah could ever aspire to. What are her amazing feats that put her above Palpatine, who had direct access to the Sith of old and their holocrons?

By this reasoning, Aleema is Frank's superior at the art, too.


Has Palpatine ever actually used Sorcery in a fight?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What does...that have to do with anything? Bane's mental fortitude was so strong, a guy who's barely Padawan level nearly severed his hand, so? It dosn't matter how strong you are mentally if a glowing plasma blade bisects you.
Where was his hand nearly severed? And the mental toughness comes in the form of not playing ignite the flames with your lightsaber while a jedi apprentice is just hanging on for dear life.


Not on the level of Maul, which DID get him killed.



Assuming sithisis is canon (I believe it isn't), and he wasn't using several sith artifcats (he was), you'd have a point. Then again, this is a comparison between Zannah and Sidious.


I'm sorry, but I'll call bs on this one. First, prove he mastered all of Sadow's secrets because I don't ever recall that quote. Then explain how, even if he did, that would automatically put him above Zannah. I don't recall Sadow ever being the greatest sith sorcerer ever, and the techniques Zannah learned were not only from Nadd's holocron bu were incredibly esoteric in nature, that even Bane was surprised. I'm fairly certain Nadd was more powerful than Sadow in the art of sith sorcery since he not only learned from sadow, but from Adas' holocron as well. This actually helps my argument.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
uh ya

So, if you will please, an explanation as to the extent of your Revan fanboyism?
My extent of my Revan fanboyism is less than your Sidious fanboyism, being as I haven't spent years passionately arguing in favor of Revan. (Hint HINT)


He hasn't done anything relevant with sith sorcery that didn't require the use of artifacts. Nor has it been as impressive as the dark side tendrils.

DS
Assuming sithisis is canon (I believe it isn't)

The events and a scan of Sithisis are featured in The Ultimate Visual Guide. It's canon.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The events and a scan of Sithisis are featured in The Ultimate Visual Guide. It's canon. Please refer to the next part of the post.

DS
My extent of my Revan fanboyism is less than your Sidious fanboyism, being as I haven't spent years passionately arguing in favor of Revan.

I'm able to criticize Palpatine's personality and powers rather casually, and in fact have mentioned in the TOR thread that Palpatine was at a pawn of another person "at least once." All without anger, denial, or tears.

The fact that I'm able to write brilliant essays lauded by the masses (including you) simply means I'm more productive with it. 131

try again pl0x

I'm surprised Beefy, that you havn't mentioned the best example of Bane's mental fortitude: That he can bare the extreme agony of the Orbalisk armor for a good, what, 8 years? without losing focus or even letting it bother him over much.

DS
Please refer to the next part of the post.

Please refer to the fact that I'm not disagreeing with your argument, simply pointing out that it is definitively canon when you questioned it. If you don't like being corrected, don't make mistakes? Maybe?

luv u

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I'm able to criticize Palpatine's personality and powers rather casually, and in fact have mentioned in the TOR thread that Palpatine was at a pawn of another person "at least once." All without anger, denial, or tears.
Only when you're forced into a corner and you have no other recourse.

I'm not sure you understand what "productive" means. And the essay was one giant textual masturbation in honor of Palpatine.




Must have missed that part.

DS
Only when you're forced into a corner and you have no other recourse.

facepalm

In what warped reality was I forced to acknowledge that Palpatine was the pawn of another? Please provide the defined parameters of this entrapment and diligently explained how I was forced to do so.

In other words, prove it.



I'm not sure you understand what understand means.



Which a.) you lauded/approved of and b.) was scholarly in nature, not the result of masturbation?



I wanted there to be no doubt of its status?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Where was his hand nearly severed? And the mental toughness comes in the form of not playing ignite the flames with your lightsaber while a jedi apprentice is just hanging on for dear life.

How does that have anything to do with mental fortitude? Again, didn't Bane nearly get killed by 'savoring his victory' with Kas'im?

And Johun nearly cut his hand off when he saw the wrist gaps with the orbalisks.




Actually, if not for Zannah, Bane would have died on Ambria when he ignored a dying Worror to blast force lightning at Johun.
Bane is remarkably arrogant



Why wouldn't it be canon? It was cited in the Ultimate Visual Guide, it contradicts nothing and other Visionaries stories are canon.





He says he mastered the secrets, hence how he shows Naga as the gatekeeper. He's the gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron because he mastered it himself, and he says Naga was 'too generous' with his knowledge, and cautions the reader patience, saying he'll teach him all of Naga's knowledge eventually



She learned Sith sorcery from a book he gave her. Also, you might want to remember? Naga was one of (if not THE) greatest Sith magician of his day. And easily the best alchemist.

Zannah learned sorcery from a few...well, scraps left about. Palpatine had the great collection in many thousands of years, including the Telos Holocron which Naga was Gatekeeper of previously.
The dark Emprie sourcebook also states Palpatine has mastered all the known techniques, the previously unknown and forgotten techniques and 'masters new ones at his leisure.'

Learning from Nadd, who was Naga's student, is rather distilled, while Palpatine had it from the source.

What does Zannah have to put her above Sidious? The Summon Fear technique is a remarkably basic one. Rokur Gepta, who paled in comparison to Palpatine, could use illusions on an enormous scale. When Palpatine devours life force? That's also Sith Magic.

Zannah's spell of concealment? Palpatine could do that to. To the pooint where not even Yoda could detect him, right next to him.

Again, Darth Wyyrlok has feats surpassing that of Zannah. She's not the pinnacle of this



Not exactly, when you also consider Palpatine had that holocron, too.

And so did Naga. It was lost in the war after the Sith lost.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
facepalm

In what warped reality was I forced to acknowledge that Palpatine was the pawn of another? Please provide the defined parameters of this entrapment and diligently explained how I was forced to do so.

In other words, prove it. Oh I see what you did there. We're not talking about the specific pawn conversation, we're talking about the few times where you had to admit Palpatine's weaknesses. Meanwhile, I have never blindly defended Revan unless it was the product of PIS.




No no, I understand. Spending countless hours on an essay based on a fictional character=opposite of productive. Not to mention, the consensus of his power was pretty much set it stone.




Why must they be mutually exclusive?

DS
Oh I see what you did there. We're not talking about the specific pawn conversation, we're talking about the few times where you had to admit Palpatine's weaknesses.

ok

Then prove that.



I'm glad you admit your defense of him was blind. Concession accepted.



Productive in that it decreased the number of challenges considerably.



haermm



Because fanboyism, as the term is being used here, is indicative of extreme bias and delusion which tend to be the antithesis of scholarly essays?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How does that have anything to do with mental fortitude? Again, didn't Bane nearly get killed by 'savoring his victory' with Kas'im?
Not the same thing considering Kas'im was still better with a saber.

Don't recall that one.




The battle was 2 vs. 5 or 6, with one being a master of battle meditation.





Do you understand the definition of "reaching, because you're a master of it? Show me the exact quote and I'll interpret it differently. I don't recall mastering whatever it is you're talking about is a prerequisite of being one of the gatekeepers of the Telos holocron. And despite what he learned, there is no evidence it was on par with Zannah's esoteric knowledge, or that he used any of it on Maul.




No, she learned SOME sith sorcery from a book he gave her. She went above and beyond what he gave her, if you recall DOE. And Sadow being one of the greatest magicians of his days means what? We aren't sure how much sith sorcery he knew but we know that Nadd learned from him AND Adas.


1. Scraps? Based on what.
2. Having the telos holocron automatically means what? N
3. You often go to the bolded quote as a last resort and expect it to work, but that hyperbole has been debunked time and time again.


While Nadd learned from Adas as well. And learning from a holocron=/=learning from the actual source (Sadow's Spirit).


The dark side tendrils? Nothing palpatine does is more impressive unless it's the use of artifacts. And if you call "slowly feeding on life over decades", then sure, that's some impressive yet irrelevant skill.


Darth wyyrlock was a beast in sith illusions, yet nothing he had was more impressive. He managed to fool a millennia old sith spirit. Wow.



Please show me where Palpatine had the holocron and when Sadow had it, because as I recall, garu had it. And don't reach by claiming that because Sadow was the DLOTS, he had access to all other material..

Go easy on the quote function, my apprentice. It is your friend, do not let desperate haste draw you into a blunder.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I'm glad you admit your defense of him was blind. Concession accepted.
I can tell when the denial kicks in by the "concession accepted" post.




The only thing that decreased the number of challenges was repetition. If I recall, you still have your battles with Janus and Nai.




Then by that definition, I can't be called a fanboy because I hardly defended Revan in versus fights and certainly not against the likes of Yoda and Sidious. I'm glad we've come to an understanding.

DS
I can tell when the denial kicks in by the "concession accepted" post.

It's going in my profile, you'll love it.



Oh, they'll never be convinced. No essay or quote from Lucas or divine act from God Himself is capable of such a feat. While my powers are indeed extraordinary, purifying their sight remains beyond my abilities.



I'm not going to criticize your objectivity for the fights regarding Revan.

You miss the nature of my accusation: You seem to dislike anything that makes Revan more human, i.e. fallible.

These are not mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir





I'm not going to criticize your objectivity for the fights regarding Revan.

You miss the nature of my accusation: You seem to dislike anything that makes Revan more human, i.e. fallible.

These are not mutually exclusive. So I'm a fanboy to a certain extent? And you miss the entire point of my criticism of the continuation of Revan's character. I don't mind him being more human. I do mind him being brought into a game and then killed off as a mid level boss because it essentially pisses on KOTOR 1 and 2. If it were any other character, my objection would still stand because I dislike tainted continuity.

Edit: If I truly had a problem with his fallibility, I would have criticized KOTOR for Revan's initial fall.

DS
So I'm a fanboy to a certain extent?

sure

Notice I never criticized your handling of the character in the Versus threads. I'm neither petty nor desperate enough to slant your views. I can condescend your views on Revan's character without being dishonest about your views on his power. sneer



Honest question: Are you opposed to the idea of anyone outwitting or manipulating him?

This probably could clear the air. And if I recall correctly, KotOR and KotOR II tried to frame the scenario as though Revan never fell.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir

Honest question: Are you opposed to the idea of anyone outwitting or manipulating him?

This probably could clear the air. Well obviously not because he was apparently turned to the dark side by the sith emperor (although he was already tainted), so I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the inconsistency of his character and the way bioware just spat on it.

DS
Well obviously not because he was apparently turned to the dark side by the sith emperor (although he was already tainted), so I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the inconsistency of his character and the way bioware just spat on it.

There, you see? Air cleared. ^_^

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
There, you see? Air cleared. ^_^

I knew you'd see it my way. Also, I had a problem with the way the last DE comic portrayed Palpatine as a raving lunatic.

His genetic structure was tampered with, tho.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
His genetic structure was tampered with, tho. Right, you can come up with an explanation for it so it's at least somewhat logical. They didn't completely shit on the character although they were close. Genetic structure should be irrelevant compared to his power in the force. No more for tonight, can't keep eyes open, until manana (aka few hours).