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Greetings,

The title is self-explanatory. Quanchi will be arguing for Voldemort. I will be arguing for Yoda. Remember, this is the movie versions of both characters only. We will be debating for several days until we both agree we are finished with our match.

I will be submitting my opening argument soon. It isn't Tuesday yet,
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Please reserve your opinions until the debate is over. Comment in the link provided:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f102/t553185.html

May the Force be with you all!

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Hey, please comment here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f102/t553185.html

A main battlezone rule is to not comment in a match thread, at least until it is finished as deemed by the two participants.

Opening Argument: Quanchi

1. Objective: Movie Voldemort will indeed defeat movie Yoda.



2.Assumptions

a. Setting:Geonosis Arena (neutral location)
b. This fight is to the death or destruction of the other person's body so if Yoda destroys Voldemort's body he wins. That isn't going to happen just saying though.
c. 3. The two combatants are standing about 200 feet/60 meters apart, and are battle-ready (Voldemort with his wand drawn, and Yoda with his lightsaber ignited).
d. Lightsaber like magic is a form of energy.
e. Both combatants have basic knowledge about the other. Therefore, Voldemort knows that Yoda uses a lightsaber and can draw upon the Force; Yoda would know Voldemort can perform magic via a wand. Voldemort is wielding the elder wand from the last film Deathly Hallows part 2.


Voldemort's powers/abilities:
1.Telekinesis:

All wizards have this ability due to their wands. Voldemort is exceptionally skilled here with amazing precise control over what he wants to be moved whether it be inanimate objects(doesn't seem to matter either if it's a lot of them either) or a person/opponent who is actively resisting him. Here is an example of him forcing an opponent that of Harry Potter to bow and forcibly obey the rules of a wizard duel. He knocks hm to the ground as well as loosens the sickle trapping Harry Potter in the cemetery prior to. Around 4:55 in is when he forces him to bow and in this scene you'll see all that I described.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyT2nY7ADnY

This isn't the only tk he shows off in the movies but it's all I will be getting into initially here. I will touch upon it again throughout the debate to ram the point home. I just wanted an initial video to back up my claims and to get those who aren't familiar with this character.
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire: Voldemort returns (hungarian)
www.youtube.com

2.The Cruciatus Curse also known as the torture curse. It renders it's victims in unspeakable agony/torment leaving them seemingly helpless. To use this curse you must verbally speak the incantation Crucio while pointing your wand at the victim. In the same video you saw earlier I will repost it while you specifically watch for Voldemort to use it briefly on Harry Potter. Note that he is toying with Harry Potter before he ultimately kills him. Harry is at the mercy of Voldemort while under this however briefly he kept torturing him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyT2nY7ADnY




There are three unforgivable curses in the Harry Potter universe. This video gives you a brief description on each one. This video also backs up my earlier statement that this curse renders the victim basically helpless under the extreme torture occurring to the victim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBFkA9mAlX4


3.Imperius Curse is an unforgivable curse which casts the victim completely under the spell/will of the caster. I won't be really going into this one as well because Voldemort didn't use it really in combat despite being behind this multiple times according to Alastor Moody in the first clip which gives a brief description of the three unforgivable curses. Someone with exceptional willpower or strength can also resist this and to be honest I don't see it personally working on Yoda anyways.
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire: Voldemort returns (hungarian)
www.youtube.com
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire: Voldemort returns (hungarian)
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4.The Elder Wand is the most powerful wand ever created by Death himself. This is in Voldemort's possession and won't resist his attempts to control it since this is outside the confines and isn't directly opposing Harry Potter due to the fact he rightly beat Draco Malfoy who disarmed Dumbledore to become the true owner of the wand.


This video is the story of the Deathly Hallows mainly for the purpose of backing up my claim it is indeed the most powerful wand ever created by death himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=bN1_h_eGitE

This video is Voldemort finally gaining possession of the elder wand. Make a note of how he uses simple force with his powers/wand to break into Dumbledore's crypt initially. At the end of the video we see exactly how powerful his energy blasts are simply from the elder wand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZzlnIuYfMk

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5.Apparition/Flight

Apparation is a magical transportation from one destination to another by visualizing the next destination in their mind. Flight should be self explanatory but I will give a few examples.

I will show one example of Voldemort apparating later on when I break down his duel at the end of the Order of the Phoenix. Voldemort apparates against Harry Potter at the end of Deathly Hallows Part 2 in combat as well but due to it still being in the theater won't look for a video. I hope you understand the reasoning Vos if not I will see what I can do if you openly dispute this feat.


Here towards the end of the video is Voldemort. The deatheater( a name for a follower of Voldemort) backs off of Harry Potter and allows Voldemort the chance to kill him. Voldemort has stated he has to be the one to kill Harry Potter. See how quickly he closes in on Harry Potter and how accurate he is despite this wand breaking on him. This wasn't Voldemort's old wand nor was it the elder wand at that point yet but we still see multiple power lines go down in the process due to his rage at failing once again to kill Harry Potter. Voldemort later apparates out of there the moment he is seen by Harry's allies known as the Orders.

http://www.youtube.com/results? search_query=voldemort+deathly+hallows+part+1+batt
le+in+the+sky+scene&aq=f
http://www.youtube.com/results​?search_query=voldemort+deathl​y+hallows+part+1+battle+in+the​+sky+scene
www.youtube.com


6.Fiendfyre is a type of fire made by dark magic. It's a very powerful spell that is harder to control and isn't easily put out by water either. Draco's friends met a rough end due to a lack of control of this spell which tried consuming everything in the room. Voldemort uses this spell against Dumbledore in their infamous duel in Order of the Phoenix. Voldemort creates a giant snake/basilisk and sets it after Albus Dumbledore. Dumbledore sends it back at Voldemort who completely evaporates the dark fire magic to counter Dumbledore.

This video is the duel which shows off many of Voldemort's powers which I have been alluding to in the different subheadings describing his various abilities.

I wanted to cover most of his powers before I posted this epic duel. At the beginning when Harry Potter decides to attack Voldemort instead of Bellatrix see how quickly his reactions are and how easily he disarms Harry Potter using his tk. Also take note of how his energy beams emanating from his wand are matching Dumbledore's and how you still see bolts of energy hitting the walls, all around Dumbledore, and all around Harry Potter damaging the environment as well. This means he can shoot beams at Yoda's light saber and still have outside beams of energy going all over the place which could strike Yoda.

Albus Dumbledore is also wielding the Elder Wand against Voldemort's own wand despite it being nowhere near as powerful and Albus being one of the greatest wizards of all time shows you just how formidable Lord Voldemort is.

After they briefly exchange energy beams back and forth we then see Voldemort easily use fiendfyre in the form of a basilisk(giant snake). Note Voldemort's absolute control of this fire creature whose sole purpose is the destruction of Albus Dumbledore. Dumbledore sends the creature back at Voldemort using his Elder Wand but Voldemort easily dissipates the fire showing off incredibly fast reaction time in the heat of a battle with another great wizard of his caliber despite Dumbledore having the far more powerful wand. Please note Yoda can't ever send the fire creature back at Voldemort so this option is off the table.

We next see Albus Dumbledore use his wand to create a water bubble which temporarily traps Voldemort inside it. Voldemort still breaks free and begins channeling dark force/matter at Dumbledore. Dumbledore is resisting until Voldemort releases it against the entire landscape of the environment which also knocks Dumbledore down.

We see the shattered glass then uses by Voldemort's wand to attack Dumbledore who creates a kind of water shield which transforms all of the glass which touches this shield into harmless water. Voldemort then apparates and takes possession of Harry Potter. Dumbledore is helpless to stop this from taking place but Voldemort is repulsed by Harry's goodness (he symbolized everything Voldemort has rejected as in love/humanity). Voldemort then leaves his body and apparates out of there when the Ministry shows up.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDtEdDJ7Vpg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v​=IDtEdDJ7Vpg&feature=related
www.youtube.com

7.Avada Kedavra is the last of the unforgivable curses which I purposely saved for last here. It's the killing curse which causes instant death when it hits its intended victim.


Voldemort kills a muggle in goblet of fire with this spell as he also kills some of his own followers in Deathly Hallows part 2. He also goes off when one of his horcruxes is stolen and just starts randomly killing anyone he felt was responsible who happened to be nearby.The curse is final and one hit is all you need to render death. Harry Potter escaped death due to the love protection spell by his mother Lilly Potter who gave her life to accomplish this form of protection. This is what saved Harry Potter as a baby from the killing curse.

Here is a video with a few examples of the curse in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NefehSiSbm0

This attack has sealed Yoda's doom.

8.Miscellaneous combat related powers

This is something I want to kind of cover altogether in a broad sense of something he might have only done once or not something covered in detail like the killing curses or other prominent magical abilities in the films. Firstly there's the dark magic he releases like he first did in the Order of the Phoenix duel he had against Albus Dumbledore which he later let loose on the entire room breaking all the glass in the room. Voldemort also uses this dark force/matter against Harry Potter in the Deathly Hallows part 2. I once again can't put up any videos due to it being out presently still at the theatre but the power would definitely hurt Yoda. This attack doesn't seem likely to be fatal if just hit with a blast or so but it did destroy the concrete of the environment around Hogwarts when he was trying to hit Harry Potter with it.

I also want to discuss him warding off Harry's spell in Goblet of Fire. Harry used the disarming spell also known as Expelliarmus (Disarming Charm). Harry was trying to disarm Voldemort but he casually blocked his spell with his hand in this scene.

Voldemort also cuts Snape's throat in Deathly Hallows part 2 with a simple wave of his wand. That's very impressive considering how easily this can be accomplished with just a flick of his wrist. Yoda could be cut while being held off at bay by the fire basilisk. Think about the options Voldemort has here while employing his ranged combat which befits a wizard while Yoda himself seemed at a huge disadavantage trying to bridge the gap to Palpatine (Darth Sidious) in the senate room. Voldemort can also apparate and create more distance anytime he wants.

Voldemort upon learning of Harry Potter's continued survival after having been lied to by Draco's mother about his death shot what appeared to be flames at Harry Potter before he quickly fled the immediate area.

Voldemot also turned his robes into a menacing, much longer choking type effect weapon of sorts and used this against Harry Potter in Deathly Hallows part 2.

I won't be discussing his parseltongue or mind reading abilities or anything I don't see as beneficial to a standard fight. I really don't want to debate anything I feel is unlikely or out of character for Voldemort to accomplish against Yoda here.

Yoda's Characterization:

I will delve into this more once I get into breaking down his responses post by post but Yoda has always been the epitome of a selfless jedi.

Yoda's problem is just the opposite from Voldemort's more aggressive approach. Yoda has had two opportunities to save countless lives but has failed in stopping both of his foes. Yoda knew stopping Dooku would prevent the clone wars but Dooku after stalemating Yoda fled the scene and Yoda was so slow to react while defending against his tk could do nothing to prevent it.


While flashy and quick he rarely has even grazed his opponent with a lightsaber those at least worthy opponents he has went up against on screen.

Weaknesses

Yoda's weakness is his lack of ranged combat. Yoda isn't quick enough to close the gap or stop the oncoming onslaught Voldemort is going to through at him.


Yoda can also be disarmed which he has been in combat by energy and trying to block/deflect it with his light saber. This has already occurred on film while Vos may try to convince even Vos knows himself it's a thin argument he has unsupported by Voldemort in the films. The guy doesn't lose his wand by tk, ever.

Yoda's nature also suggests he will do what he always does jump around and swat at his opponent either defending himself or attacking he's never out down an exceptional opponent even Dooku whom I feel is less skilled than Yoda in the same verse. Dooku even states this combat won;t be decided by knowledge of the force but by skills of the saber but I have news for Vos and Yoda here. This is a dark wizard whose dark arts are foreign to Master Yoda who even with his knowledge of the force couldn't beat a lesser skilled opponent.

Yoda while still gifted with precog even though it is loosely defied has been hit by one attack with no other distractions against one opponent before suggesting he can't always react to what's coming for him. In this case I hope he's ready for the sweet embrace of death because it's inevitable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
5.Apparition/Flight

Apparation is a magical transportation from one destination to another by visualizing the next destination in their mind. Flight should be self explanatory but I will give a few examples.

I will show one example of Voldemort apparating later on when I break down his duel at the end of the Order of the Phoenix. Voldemort apparates against Harry Potter at the end of Deathly Hallows Part 2 in combat as well but due to it still being in the theater won't look for a video. I hope you understand the reasoning Vos if not I will see what I can do if you openly dispute this feat.


Yes, there is an instance of Voldemort using Apparition in combat against Harry in DH2. However, do you remember how effective it was? I'll tell you- it was absolutely useless. Potter was still able to veer around and respond with a spell of his own.

It makes me wonder just how effective this move is in a duel. You don't see Dumbledore or Voldemort making use of this method in their battle in the Ministry of Magic headquarters.

In the films, the maneuver only seems to work if your opponent has absolutely no anticipation of your approach. I speak of Bellatrix's killing of Sirius Black in Harry Potter:Order of the Phoenix.

As I pointed out, Yoda has advanced precognition and Force Sense. If Potter, with normal senses, managed to produce a counter, then Yoda, blessed with superhuman reflexes, will have no chance of being surprised by an Apparition-sneak attack.


Yes, it's another of his fancy powers that will serve him absolutely no good in combat. Voldemort is not going to switch into 'shadow flight mode' and start flapping around Yoda.

And "what accuracy" are you speaking of? Voldemort is closely cruising directly horizontal to Hagrid's motorcycle. From his frame of reference, he is essentially just aiming straight at a static target. Tell me how this "accuracy" will fare against the 'Tasmanian Devil'-like Jedi.



Aye, Fiendfyre is a very powerful spell that Voldemort has in his arsenal. However, it will not be a spell that he will open with. The Dark Wizard only used that spell after the initial stalemate and because Dumbledore was stationary. Voldemort saw the opportunity of sending the fiery serpent to finish him.

Against Yoda, an opponent who will certainly not remain fixed at a spot, Fiendfyre will lose potency since Voldemort may not know where to direct it except for in a general direction.

Yoda has shown the ability to jump multiple stories (see the Senate Chamber duel). Even if such a blaze is released near his position, he can easily move away (he is an arena/neutral location, after all) in any direction, even leaping over the afire snake.

Originally posted by quanchi112
7.Avada Kedavra is the last of the unforgivable curses which I purposely saved for last here. It's the killing curse which causes instant death when it hits its intended victim.


Voldemort kills a muggle in goblet of fire with this spell as he also kills some of his own followers in Deathly Hallows part 2. He also goes off when one of his horcruxes is stolen and just starts randomly killing anyone he felt was responsible who happened to be nearby.The curse is final and one hit is all you need to render death. Harry Potter escaped death due to the love protection spell by his mother Lilly Potter who gave her life to accomplish this form of protection. This is what saved Harry Potter as a baby from the killing curse.

Here is a video with a few examples of the curse in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NefehSiSbm0

This attack has sealed Yoda's doom.

Have you forgotten tutaminis? Magic and Force powers are assumed to be forms of energy. Unlike Fiendfyre, which is a flame incantation that isn't a concentrated energy bolt, Avada Kadavra has the same style & essence as Force Lightning. Like a majority of other spells in the Harry Potter universe, it comes off as a jet of light that 'beams' itself toward where it is aimed. Likewise, Force Lightning comes off as a jet of lightning that 'beams' itself toward where it is aimed. Therefore, Yoda will be block/dissipate/redirect Avada Kadavra, but not Fiendfyre.

Furthermore, Avada Kadavra, like other spells, can be avoided if one sidesteps away from the location where the attack was intended for.

Avada Kadavra seals Yoda's doom if it actually hits the Grand Master. The Jedi can block it with his lightsaber, his hands, or simply avoid it altogether (which is by far the easiest and most effective move and one that Yoda will likely take).



Voldemort simply gathered the combined energy from his previous spell and Dumbledore's Protego and unleashed that force upon the glass. It wasn't a new spell in itself.

And Harry managed to run and jump away from that "dark force/matter." That should be enough to tell you that Yoda would no difficulty evading that spell.

As for the comment on the spell hurting Yoda, well the Grand Master's constitution is tremendously high.

Look at the conclusion to Yoda vs. Sidious:

Fall

We see Yoda feeling the impact of an electrical explosion and then thrown hundreds of feet downward, bouncing off an repulsorpod, before crashing onto the ground. Yet, he's still able to rise as if he simply tripped. The only reason he didn't continue the battle was because Sidious had brought Clone reinforcements and Yoda realized how the changes and dynamism of the Sith for the last thousand years made it impossible to defeat them that day.

Holy quadra-post.

Yes, but once again, we don't know if Voldemort can use a similar hand motion without a wand. And Harry, y'know, was just tortured by the Cruciatus Curse two seconds before, and on the ground in desperation. Honestly, Voldemort was expected to block that spell.
There was nothing impressive about it.



1. First of all, it's not explicitly shown (in the film) where Voldemort cut Snape.

2. Secondly, Snape is injured, but very much alive after that attack. It's Nagini who does the dirty work. Compare that to Yoda's simple hand wave, which could break Voldemort's spine.

3. Thirdly, that slashing move would be more impressive if Snape actually bothered to resist, which he didn't. Now all that we see is a Sectumsempra on a sitting duck that doesn't even kill its recipient.

4. Options? You have ignored Voldemort's personality in battle. You seem to think he'll cast Fiendfyre from the get-go, then spam-Apparate around the arena till he's behind Yoda, then cast Sectumsempra, and finally finish with an Avada Kadavra. All this while ignoring Yoda's precog/sense/speed.

If you read my opening argument, you would know that's not the dynamic of wizard duels and how Voldemort himself would approach an opponent with an intent to kill.

And I'll provide you with some "options" on how easy this duel could be for Yoda. If both opponents are coming in with basic knowledge of the other's abilities, then Yoda knows all he needs to do is disarm Voldemort. For all the options Voldemort has, Yoda can erase them with a simple Force Pull on the Elder Wand the moment both combatants begin fighting. You remember Order 66? Gree and a fellow Clone reveal their weapons and fire, but Yoda had killed them by that point. Similarly, Voldemort swishes his wind and starts his first spell, only to see his wand already out of his hand.

Without higher ground, and Yoda gunning forward to close the 200 feet distance between him and Voldemort, the Dark Wizard will be hard-pressed to maintain a safe distance from the Grand Master. Yoda would continuously put him on the defensive (which would be extremely uncomfortable for a heavily-offensive Voldemort). As soon as this battle begins, and Voldemort fires his expected killing stroke, if Yoda hadn't already disarmed his wand, he'll be in the air advancing fiercely to engage the Dark Wizard in close combat.

Voldemort has superb firepower, sure. But that won't mean anything if he can't keep up with an opponent who can see his move ahead of time and has bionic reflexes and pace to boot.

Apparition and creating space is Voldemort's only effective defense. Essentially, he would only be delaying the inevitable. Yoda won't delay using TK to disarm Voldemort's wand, and eliminating any distance between him and Dark Wizard. A single lightsaber slash (or throw, for that matter) that connects would significantly hamper Voldemort (who, unlike Yoda, doesn't have the constitution to fall hundreds of feet and still stand as if nothing happened).



If Voldemort is forced to use his cloak as an attack against Yoda, then that indicates he's engaged the Grand Master is in close quarters, which more or less means the Dark Wizard is already fvcked.

You know, that scene with Voldemort blasting fire at Harry is indicative of how this battle would play out. Granted, Voldemort didn't have the greatest of shots, but Harry is able to avoid spells simply by running to the side. Dodging seems to be a specialty of Yoda, and one that will frustrate Voldemort to no end when he sees none of his spells connecting. Imagine that frustration while dealing with a 2.1 foot creature rushing forward with a menacing green blade in his hands.

BTW, I still haven't seen an argument made as to how Voldemort will plan to augment his reflexes and senses to match that of Yoda's.

Originally posted by quanchi112
1.Precognition--For all it's vagueness and supposed reactionary super reflexes I've seen even the supposed greatest jedi Yoda fail to react to a simple force lightning blast.

In 30 or so seconds in Palpatine slowly raises his hands to fire the force lightning in what I'd call slower than even an above human athlete reaction time because he telegraphed what he was doing with his hands prior to the blast. That's awful considering

a)Vos calls him the greatest jedi ever
b)Palpatine (Darth Sidious) blatantly telegraphs his attack.
c)This was just a one on one similar attack in which Palpatine's blast seemed far slower than Voldemort's blasts with casual flicks of his wrist.

I see no reason that despite this awful reaction of Yoda to suggest he's always on top of Voldemort's attacks who keeps pouring them on effortlessly with varying effects other than a straight beam of harmful/destructive energy.

This is a faulty rebuttal, Quanchi:

1. Sidious and Yoda had not begun fighting. They were engaged in wordplay when Sidious decided to taunt Yoda by firing a casual Force Lightning smack into his face. It is assumed Yoda is combat-ready at the start of his battle against Voldemort.

2. The 'slower' reactions (with Yoda hit by Force Lightning and Sidious hit by Force Push) are included to draw out, in dramatic effect, the confrontation between the two greatest Force-sensitives up to that time.

3. This is certainly Yoda's lowest showing.

Couple minutes later you see him dodging an avalanche of Senate pods. When he returns to engage Sidious on the repulsorpod, he lands close to the ledge, a precarious position. Here Sidious bombards him with Force Storm (which had the power to blast Windu across Coruscant) at point-blank range. The attack knocks away Yoda's lightsaber, but the Grand Master has the precog/reflexes/speed/strength to erect a potent defense single-handed (before resorting to both hands) on an insecure position.

Therefore, what you saw earlier contradicts all the other examples I have shown of his incredible precog/senses/speed.



Okay, sure. The only method Voldemort has of possibly avoiding a lightsaber up his throat is by apparating as often as he can to maintain distance from Yoda.

However, as I mentioned in my opening argument, wizarding duels usually involve two opponents a short distance away pummeling spells at each other. Apparition, as I have discussed earlier, doesn't seem to be as viable of an option in such a contest (not to mention, sneak attacks won't be effective against Yoda). As a result, Voldemort may be unprepared to utilize it to such an extent. Furthermore, Voldemort's offensive nature (and arrogant personality) suggests he won't let himself to be overwhelmed and put on the defensive (which is what will happen, though) by an insignificant little creature.

Therefore, while Apparition is Voldemort's most crucial ability in this battle, he would have tremendous reservations using it to the degree that would be expected in this fight.

Finally, returning back to what you mentioned: Yoda can use Force Sense to detect ripples in the Force. Somebody like Voldemort, who is immersed in the Dark Side and is quite powerful, would be as easy to recognize as smelling putrid odor while standing next to a dumpster. Therefore, if Voldemort apparates behind Yoda, the Grand Master would have already anticipated his presence and would have 'seen' the next attack.

Originally posted by quanchi112
3. Force Speed

Despite Yoda's supposed above human jedi reactions he just stands there as Dooku slowly tk's that large structure to fall into the jedi. It took multiple seconds and he had to lodge it free while Yoda took a really long time to hold it steady and make sure it didn't harm either fallen jedi. This is obviously the reason Dooku flees but Yoda had more than enough time to garner a victory while the battle seemed pretty even with the slightest of advantages maybe in Yoda's favor. Later in rots Anakin easily bests Count Dooku after he gives into his rage and temporarily embraces the dark side. This also further shows Yoda's weakness to finish his opponent since both of his on screen fights ended in stalemates and someone else other than Yoda defeated both of his opponents.

1. All right, I am going to deviate and discuss what I call the "Jedi Point of View." George Lucas has stated the limitations of portraying Jedi and Sith with human actors since obviously none of them have actual superhuman reflexes and speed. As a result, what we see in the film are fights that are fast, but still at human level.

Therefore, this leads to the "Jedi POV." Basically, the fights depicted should be seen from the frame of reference of a Jedi. Essentially, the duels in the films would be a blur if we viewed it with human senses. However, by perceiving it as a Jedi (therefore on an equal level as the combatants), you see it as how it is depicted by the actors.

Do you understand what I am saying? Basically, what you might think as a "slow" move by Dooku is actually tremendously fast because you are viewing the duel from a Jedi POV.

2. You realize Dooku was one of the Order's finest Jedi (he could outspar Mace Windu) and that he tooled Obi-Wan and Anakin (both of whom are already highly regarded Jedi by this point) just prior to fighting Yoda. Secondly, Yoda did not wish to slay his "old Padawan". He had a personal connection with Dooku and it's obvious he wanted to capture, not kill, him to find out why he had fallen to the Dark Side. If Yoda intended on finishing Dooku, he definitely would have came in with a stronger assault. Skywalker, tapping into his Chosen One potential, and with an intent to kill was able to defeat Dooku that rapidly. It should not be held against Yoda if he couldn't finish a powerful opponent (one of the finest swordsmen in the Order) that he had no desire of killing. Even then, Dooku was forced to flee because Yoda was already overwhelming him.

3. Yoda had to break concentration to secure the pillar and completely ensure that it wouldn't have the chance of accidently landing or rolling onto Anakin or Obi-Wan. That is why it took that much time. Yoda won't have to worry about others in this fight.

4. And did you see the clips of Kenobi and Yoda infiltrating the Temple against the 501st or the Grand Master's beheading of Gree and his Clone trooper? Those are two occasions where he doesn't show weakness of not being able to finish his opponents.

5. How is it against Yoda that he couldn't finish Sidious? He was the one who dominated close combat to the degree that the Sith Lord had to flee to higher ground. If the two weren't fighting on a repulsorpod at the end, Yoda wouldn't have been thrown hundreds of feet downward. After that, it's the Grand Master's realization about the failure of the Jedi Order and the dynamism of the Sith, along with incoming Clone troopers, that forced him to retreat.




Wait what are you saying? Only reason why Sidious disarmed Yoda at the end was because the Grand Master had no traction on the Senate pod he had just landed upon and the Force Storm was unleashed at point-blank range. Still, Yoda 'beats' Sidious in that energy exchange.

And your second part makes no sense since the two weren't fighting yet.



This battle takes place in an arena, on neutral ground. Higher ground is irrelevant.

Besides, I don't hold it against Yoda if Sidious, the most powerful Sith, managed to get to higher ground. Fact remains that despite that disadvantage, Yoda was able to get back onto equal ground with Sidious and essentially 'win' the next sequence if it weren't for the fact they were fighting on a Senate pod that Yoda landed on the edge of.



Do you realize how much momentum that pod had before Yoda brought it to a complete standstill? He spun it and threw it back with greater speed (against gravity), which of course would take more time than flinging it downward.

I've more than enough discussed Yoda's absolutely phenomenal ability to withstand and redirect Palpatine's Force Lighting (that fired Windu a mile+ across Coruscant) at that range with that hazardous footing. How you manage to see this as a negative point for Yoda is beyond me.



No, Yoda understood halfway through the duel, before he spun back the repulsorpod, that Sith had changed and adapted for the better while the Jedi remained static under his leadership. This personal failure along with the shortcomings of the Jedi told Yoda that the Sith could not be defeated that day. This coupled with the arrival of Clone Troopers forced him to retreat.

Therefore, your argument that Yoda lacks a killer edge is moot (both against Dooku and against Sidious). Against Voldemort he won't have doubts, burdens, or sudden realizations, but rather a clear mind with a sole intention to kill.

1. JHis TK feats took some time because they were on a much higher scale than anything Voldemort has ever done.

2. The elimination of the Royal Guards wasn't quick?

3. Jedi POV for the TK acts against Dooku and Sidious.

4. Voldemort's TK isn't quick at all (and it's nothing compared to Yoda's) and I've touched on this in an earlier post.

Originally posted by quanchi112
5. Force Valor

Yes, I will agree in Harry Potter we frequently see wizards miss their targets throughout the entire series. We however don't see Voldemort frequently miss his target. He hits Harry Potter with the Avada Kedavra in the Dark Forest. The reason Harry ultimately survives is due to the help he has albeit through his dead parent's spirits, Albus Dumbledore showing up in Order of the Phoenix, a love protection spell causing the Avada Kedavra to rebound onto him, or Voldemort unknowingly destroying a horcrux he unsuspecting made inside Harry Potter it's a given he's pretty accurate. Now he does miss Potter as he is evading him later on near and around Hogwarts but Potter defends himself against his beams of energy and breaks free from his cloak of strangulation to defeat Voldemort due to the Elder wand not being rightfully Voldemort's possession.

You just hurt your own argument in this paragraph. The only reason Voldemort didn't miss is because Harry was standing still and ready to die.

You yourself accept that Voldemort misses when Potter is "evading him later on." Unless you think Yoda is going to lean on his stick and do this:



He will be dodging, and dodging very well.



1. Considering Neville was standing defiantly at the center and ready to charge, it's pretty apparent why he was KO'd.

2. What prevented you from seeing the whole "Yoda is holding onto his cane and talking to Sidious, clearly not ready for battle and therefore unprepared for the blast " or "Plot device intended to draw out the confrontation" that was quite apparent in the scene?

3. He dies by Avada Kedavra if it hits him, which isn't going to happen.

Magic is assumed as a form of energy. Tutaminis absorbs, dissipates, and/or redirects concentrated energy attacks, which are what most spells in Harry Potter are.

Your right that Yoda can't block/redirect Fiendfyre and Crucio because they are different in style and essence than Avada Kadavra. But the Killing Curse is similar to Force Lightning.

http://images.wikia.com/harrypotter/images/5/54/Avada_Kedavra.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oLbtTQY0cnE/TJmVBOpT1kI/AAAAAAAAAHU/bwuELFHjyV8/s1600/PalpatineLightning.jpg

And Sidious's Force Storm, which can send a master Jedi soaring across Coruscant with tremendous propulsion, is now in a "little league." Please.

Even Dooku's Force Lightning, which he seemed to do rather casually in the clip I show below, had the ability to lift up and slam Anakin against the wall, forcing him out of the duel for several minutes. Yoda, later on, easily (not once troubled) gathers in his palms a stronger version of that Lightning and redirects it into a pure energy bolt.

Dooku's Lightning

Originally posted by quanchi112
Weaknesses


I don't see Voldemort's dependency on his wand as a weakness. Like any combatant who brings a weapon to the table it all comes down to how formidable they are wielding it and what has occurred in their own respective universes to cause them to be separated from their weapon. Yoda's had his weapon disarmed by energy blasts in the form of force lightning so it's definitely in the cards for Voldemort to disarm him. If Yoda is disarmed he's a sitting duck and can't block really Voldemort's Avada Kedavra which will oneshot him. Voldemort only lost hold of his wand one time and it was due to the impact of Harry's words which had a lot to do with Voldemort's panic and fear that Harry was still alive and resisting Voldemort's attempts to take his life which gave Harry the opportunity to grab a hold of Voldemort and then after a lengthy flight struggling with Harry Potter in which they both lost a hold of their wands.

1. This is flawed logic Quan. You are making it seem that just because Yoda lost his lightsaber once in combat, he is suddenly easy for Voldemort to disarm. And then you continue saying because Voldemort only lost his wand once to "X" reason, Yoda won't have the capability of disarming him in battle. Yoda's telekinesis could instantly disarm Voldemort or return his lightsaber to him should he lose it.

bash him against the ground, simultaneously breaking his spine and knocking him out.

2. "If Yoda is disarmed he's a sitting duck..." What? Yoda can't dodge or use tutaminis anymore if he loses his lightsaber? Yoda can't use TK to bash Voldemort against the ground, simultaneously breaking his spine and knocking him out? Or throw Voldemort across the arena? You still haven't shown me how Voldemort can counter Yoda's telekinesis.

3. You are assuming Voldemort can physically keep up with Yoda and be able to disarm the Grand Master and then have the time to hit him with the Killing Curse. However, this assumption is false since Voldemort hasn't shown any superhuman senses or reflexes.



Yoda's lightsaber fell hundreds of feet below. Furthermore, the more pressing matter was the bombardment of lightning that Sidious was unleashing that Yoda had to counter. The duel ended after the energy exchange. If the battle was on neutral ground, you can be sure he would have Force Pull-ed his lightsaber.



I don't know about you, but I'm certain that opening spell by Voldemort was Avada Kadavra. Harry Potter Wiki also seems to agree...

...which if true, would kill everything you said above.


And Voldemort has always been no-nonsense. Avada Kadavra is his trademark and most effective spell. We seem killing the Potters and Frank Bryce in the films with this curse. Voldemort isn't going to be bothered on weakening his opponent when he knows that if Avada Kadavra hits, he will win no matter the condition of his opponent.




No, you haven't. You took the lowest showing of Yoda in a plot-drive sequence aimed to set up the titanic battle between Dark Lord of the Sith and Jedi Grand Master and a moment when he wasn't even in battle-mode as your only defense against Yoda's precognition, Force sense, and speed.

You have attempted to show that Yoda doesn't have superhuman reflexes and speed due to one singular instance; apart from that, you have no argument as to how Voldemort can counter Yoda's abilities and TK. You have proven Voldemort has firepower; an argument both you and I and everyone else is aware of. However, you haven't shown how this firepower would actually work against an opponent that can comfortably dodge (since spells in Harry Potter can be avoided if you just run to the side). You have tried to portray Voldemort as having fast reflexes based on his various interactions with Harry Potter, but all those moments show Harry in a compromised position and therefore don't come off as impressive showings.

Mistakes/Clarifications:





Let me clarify that last sentence. Sidious and Yoda already fight in an ultra-human human manner in ROTS. Yet, the Jedi POV argument is rational and stands for every other duel in the movies (Anakin vs. Obi-Wan; Windu vs. Sidious; Skywalker/Kenobi vs. Dooku). Therefore, by extension, Sidious vs. Yoda must have been EXCEPTIONALLY fast.




This is the video clip I meant to add:

Laugh!

I forgot this and it should be included in my last post but I forgot to copy and paste this as well. Prepare for a post blitzkrieg.

Yoda's characterization

I will delve into this more once I get into breaking down his responses post by post but Yoda has always been the epitome of a selfless jedi.

Yoda's problem is just the opposite from Voldemort's more aggressive approach. Yoda has had two opportunities to save countless lives but has failed in stopping both of his foes. Yoda knew stopping Dooku would prevent the clone wars but Dooku after stalemating Yoda fled the scene and Yoda was so slow to react while defending against his tk could do nothing to prevent it.


While flashy and quick he rarely has even grazed his opponent with a lightsaber those at least worthy opponents he has went up against on screen.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yes, there is an instance of Voldemort using Apparition in combat against Harry in DH2. However, do you remember how effective it was? I'll tell you- it was absolutely useless. Potter was still able to veer around and respond with a spell of his own.

It makes me wonder just how effective this move is in a duel. You don't see Dumbledore or Voldemort making use of this method in their battle in the Ministry of Magic headquarters.

In the films, the maneuver only seems to work if your opponent has absolutely no anticipation of your approach. I speak of Bellatrix's killing of Sirius Black in Harry Potter:Order of the Phoenix.

As I pointed out, Yoda has advanced precognition and Force Sense. If Potter, with normal senses, managed to produce a counter, then Yoda, blessed with superhuman reflexes, will have no chance of being surprised by an Apparition-sneak attack.


Yes, it's another of his fancy powers that will serve him absolutely no good in combat. Voldemort is not going to switch into 'shadow flight mode' and start flapping around Yoda.

And "what accuracy" are you speaking of? Voldemort is closely cruising directly horizontal to Hagrid's motorcycle. From his frame of reference, he is essentially just aiming straight at a static target. Tell me how this "accuracy" will fare against the 'Tasmanian Devil'-like Jedi.



Aye, Fiendfyre is a very powerful spell that Voldemort has in his arsenal. However, it will not be a spell that he will open with. The Dark Wizard only used that spell after the initial stalemate and because Dumbledore was stationary. Voldemort saw the opportunity of sending the fiery serpent to finish him.

Against Yoda, an opponent who will certainly not remain fixed at a spot, Fiendfyre will lose potency since Voldemort may not know where to direct it except for in a general direction.

Yoda has shown the ability to jump multiple stories (see the Senate Chamber duel). Even if such a blaze is released near his position, he can easily move away (he is an arena/neutral location, after all) in any direction, even leaping over the afire snake. Yes, I know Harry was able to veer around and stop Voldemort's attack but this would still create the necessary distance between himself and Yoda during combat if Yoda does successfully block the attack with his saber.

I think it's just something rarely shown in battles like combat speed in True Blood. To me it's obvious it would be an advantage and throw your opponent off or like I said create the necessary distance you need against someone who has a lightsaber and is actively trying to kill you with it.

I see the killing of Sirius Black as similar to Yoda's tk of those unsuspecting Palpatine guards. They simply weren't ready for it and like a sucker punch in real life it will definitely affect you more when your guard is completely down.

Potter and most of the wizards in Harry Potter don't just have normal reactionary skill since most humans couldn't easily just without training just block someone else's offensive spell/attacks and would be caught off guard if someone teleported behind you. Harry Potter though young was battle tested and had run into Giant Arachnids, a Basilisk, other deatheaters, other opposing wizards, been taught and trained at school both officially and secretly. He's not some schlub someone gave a wand to last week and suddenly can react to the dark lord.

I hardly see him not knowing where to send the Basilisk as a serious defense against it. The snake is gigantic and it Yoda isn't fast enough to completely avoid it pursuing him. Yoda will have his hands busy while Voldemort sends it after him. The snake didn't ever lose it's potency and in Deathly Hallows 2 when the younger/more inexperienced wizards who used this spell but lacked the ability to control it the creatures still pursued everyone in the room. They were running they weren't actively controlling them and they didn't ever lose potency and didn't stop pursuing anyone. Voldemort only dissipated it after Dumbledore sent it back at him with razor sharp reflexes which set up the moment where Dumbledore encased him in the water bubble temporarily.

Yoda can leap all he wants it won't stop pursuing him. We also see Yoda barely dodging pods tossed his way despite being most likely several hundred feet away in the senate chamber. Yoda's nowhere near as quick even in his own battles to suggest he can avoid this giant snake for long.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Have you forgotten tutaminis? Magic and Force powers are assumed to be forms of energy. Unlike Fiendfyre, which is a flame incantation that isn't a concentrated energy bolt, Avada Kadavra has the same style & essence as Force Lightning. Like a majority of other spells in the Harry Potter universe, it comes off as a jet of light that 'beams' itself toward where it is aimed. Likewise, Force Lightning comes off as a jet of lightning that 'beams' itself toward where it is aimed. Therefore, Yoda will be block/dissipate/redirect Avada Kadavra, but not Fiendfyre.

Furthermore, Avada Kadavra, like other spells, can be avoided if one sidesteps away from the location where the attack was intended for.

Avada Kadavra seals Yoda's doom if it actually hits the Grand Master. The Jedi can block it with his lightsaber, his hands, or simply avoid it altogether (which is by far the easiest and most effective move and one that Yoda will likely take).



Voldemort simply gathered the combined energy from his previous spell and Dumbledore's Protego and unleashed that force upon the glass. It wasn't a new spell in itself.

And Harry managed to run and jump away from that "dark force/matter." That should be enough to tell you that Yoda would no difficulty evading that spell.

As for the comment on the spell hurting Yoda, well the Grand Master's constitution is tremendously high.

Look at the conclusion to Yoda vs. Sidious:

Fall

We see Yoda feeling the impact of an electrical explosion and then thrown hundreds of feet downward, bouncing off an repulsorpod, before crashing onto the ground. Yet, he's still able to rise as if he simply tripped. The only reason he didn't continue the battle was because Sidious had brought Clone reinforcements and Yoda realized how the changes and dynamism of the Sith for the last thousand years made it impossible to defeat them that day. No, I haven't forgotten it. I disagree though to the nth power. Avada Kedavra can be blocked or avoided but redirected not a chance. It's instantaneous death whereas there's no time to redirect as it kills you. Yoda even while redirecting force lightning which isn't instantaneous death even at it's greatest showing but is pure force. Even while trying to redirect pure force after Yoda arrives at the same pod Palpatine has been attacking him from the effects still send Yoda back. Yoda in effect despite all his focus couldn't avoid all the force of the effects from it and won't have more than an instant against a spell which kills you with one shot. Even if I agreed with you which I don't Yoda hasn't even been able to resist all the effects/force from Palpatine so I don't see him resisting a powerful blast for long from the Elder wand since it destroyed the combined protective enchantments at Hogwarts.


Yes, I agree he can sidestep it or avoid it but redirect not a chance as I have just explained.

Yoda can block or dodge it but once he loses his saber he's done for. He can only avoid it for so long and the sheer onslaught Voldemort can bring forth at Yoda unarmed will end very quickly. hell, if Voldemort calls forth the snake I don't see Yoda lasting long. You also have to agree the Crucio Curse would render him defenseless without his saber and make him completely vulnerable. Voldemort can also cut him with a swipe of his wand as well which Yoda cannot block or redirect.



The dark energy from his own spell/etc. can still be used against Yoda. The sheer force would knock him down but it isn't a major contention anyways as knocking him over really doesn't prove he will win the fight on that alone just that he has the power necessary to keep him at bay and off balance while Yoda is fighting for his life.


Yes, the dark energy can be avoided but harry wasn't out in the open against Voldemort at that point and the environment initially played a factor.

Yes, I agree even if he's hit with the force of this attack it will just keep him off balance which Sidious seemed to effectively have accomplished throwing the pods at him.


I do also agree Yoda's opportunity to defeat Palpatine slipped through his grasp which is why he left. Palpatine also had the higher ground and would have held the advantage once again with all those pods at his disposal had Yoda continued the fight.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yes, but once again, we don't know if Voldemort can use a similar hand motion without a wand. And Harry, y'know, was just tortured by the Cruciatus Curse two seconds before, and on the ground in desperation. Honestly, Voldemort was expected to block that spell.
There was nothing impressive about it.



1. First of all, it's not explicitly shown (in the film) where Voldemort cut Snape.

2. Secondly, Snape is injured, but very much alive after that attack. It's Nagini who does the dirty work. Compare that to Yoda's simple hand wave, which could break Voldemort's spine.

3. Thirdly, that slashing move would be more impressive if Snape actually bothered to resist, which he didn't. Now all that we see is a Sectumsempra on a sitting duck that doesn't even kill its recipient.

4. Options? You have ignored Voldemort's personality in battle. You seem to think he'll cast Fiendfyre from the get-go, then spam-Apparate around the arena till he's behind Yoda, then cast Sectumsempra, and finally finish with an Avada Kadavra. All this while ignoring Yoda's precog/sense/speed.

If you read my opening argument, you would know that's not the dynamic of wizard duels and how Voldemort himself would approach an opponent with an intent to kill.

And I'll provide you with some "options" on how easy this duel could be for Yoda. If both opponents are coming in with basic knowledge of the other's abilities, then Yoda knows all he needs to do is disarm Voldemort. For all the options Voldemort has, Yoda can erase them with a simple Force Pull on the Elder Wand the moment both combatants begin fighting. You remember Order 66? Gree and a fellow Clone reveal their weapons and fire, but Yoda had killed them by that point. Similarly, Voldemort swishes his wind and starts his first spell, only to see his wand already out of his hand.

Without higher ground, and Yoda gunning forward to close the 200 feet distance between him and Voldemort, the Dark Wizard will be hard-pressed to maintain a safe distance from the Grand Master. Yoda would continuously put him on the defensive (which would be extremely uncomfortable for a heavily-offensive Voldemort). As soon as this battle begins, and Voldemort fires his expected killing stroke, if Yoda hadn't already disarmed his wand, he'll be in the air advancing fiercely to engage the Dark Wizard in close combat.

Voldemort has superb firepower, sure. But that won't mean anything if he can't keep up with an opponent who can see his move ahead of time and has bionic reflexes and pace to boot.

Apparition and creating space is Voldemort's only effective defense. Essentially, he would only be delaying the inevitable. Yoda won't delay using TK to disarm Voldemort's wand, and eliminating any distance between him and Dark Wizard. A single lightsaber slash (or throw, for that matter) that connects would significantly hamper Voldemort (who, unlike Yoda, doesn't have the constitution to fall hundreds of feet and still stand as if nothing happened).



If Voldemort is forced to use his cloak as an attack against Yoda, then that indicates he's engaged the Grand Master is in close quarters, which more or less means the Dark Wizard is already fvcked.

You know, that scene with Voldemort blasting fire at Harry is indicative of how this battle would play out. Granted, Voldemort didn't have the greatest of shots, but Harry is able to avoid spells simply by running to the side. Dodging seems to be a specialty of Yoda, and one that will frustrate Voldemort to no end when he sees none of his spells connecting. Imagine that frustration while dealing with a 2.1 foot creature rushing forward with a menacing green blade in his hands.

BTW, I still haven't seen an argument made as to how Voldemort will plan to augment his reflexes and senses to match that of Yoda's. I'm saying here Voldemort can casually deflect a spell with his hand only. That's impressive in the Harry Potter verse since we don't really see this happen all that often. Voldemort will be holding his wand the entire time vs. Yoda so I hardly see what the hub bub is all about in terms of how he accomplished the feat.


Yes, Harry was tortured but had recovered from the effects of it and it in no way took away the effectiveness of the spell at all. This wasn't hinted it at all on screen.

1. Ok, I will grant you it isn't explicitly shown where he cut Snape but the fact is HE CUT SNAPE. So wherever his wand is aiming for will be cut. Yoda will have to avoid this seemingly quick attack because otherwise he will be gashed open like Snape was.

2. Snape is there helpless and Voldemort allows Nagini to take it from there. Snape was completely helpless and at Voldemort's mercy. The attack definitely left him in a defenseless state. Voldemort could have Avada Kedavara'd him at any time. Being the Dark Lord that he is he allowed his pet to finish the job.

You get all nitpicky and dispute Snape's throat being cut but despite no evidence at all being shown in the films pronounce Yoda as some spine destroyer. Yoda tk'd Palpatine and his spine and his health overall weren't affected in the slightest save the force of being tossed back.

3.Yoda can't resist being slashed. No more than he can resist the effects of Crucio if it hits him. The Sectumsempra spell was only known by Harry Potter and Snape since he had access to his diary. Furthermore we see Harry speak the words every time it is used and we hear no verbal incantations here nor can we determine if Voldemort even knew about the spell so it's unlikely he used it here but due to his powers just cut him with the wave of his wand.

Either way you want to look at it Voldemort does it without speaking the verbal words and can achieve this just as easily on Yoda.

4.No, I haven't ignored how he fights in character and am purposely trying to argue what's in character for him. He didn't start the battle against Dumbledore using the basilisk but did to resort to it pretty quickly in so based off of evidence let's say Yoda effectively blocks his energy attacks it's coming or could come right after since that's exactly how quickly Voldemort used it against Dumbledore on screen.

The other abilities are options has done on screen so they are still options he has on the table. I am not citing other characters' feats as his own but simply am piecing together his offensive attacks from the movies and laying them out there as options. I don't believe he will apparate all over the place as that's out of character but do think him doing so once or possibly twice is something he might do just like Yoda might use tk once or possibly twice in an attacking fashion.


Me taking attacks out of his combat history and him using them isn't out of character but if I had Voldemort aparating while creating basilisks, and firing the Avada Kedavara, and if that fails trying the cutting attack then this would be completely out of character and how a poster tries to steer the argument in his favor by powerset arguing.

I do remember Order 66 and them approaching him from behind while still believing they had the element of surprise on him. They didn't and Voldemort won't try to get closer to Yoda as they foolishly did. There were only two of them so Yoda reacting while they were under the misconception he was unaware of their motives isn't applicable here.

If Yoda was this badass with his tk he'd easily tk Palpatine's light saber out of his hand. No, he doesn't but instead just pushes him across the room the one time he caught him off guard. He won't be catching Voldemort off guard as Voldemort won't be giving a speech like Palpatine did right before he was hit with the attack.

I argue it consistently and just because we see Voldemort tk Harry's wand out of his hands that doesn't mean he can do it at will he needs to catch Harry off guard just like Yoda needs to catch those off guard he hits with tk.

Voldemort will have Yoda pressed right out of the gate with his energy blasts. Yoda will be hard pressed to gain the ground when he could send a basilisk after him after his initial blasts fail to hit him. Then Yoda has to worry about it and has to go on the defensive. I also don't see a problem with Voldemort apparating once since he has while in direct combat effectively re-establishing the distance between the two.

I've already pointed out far less speedier movements from Palpatine have caught Yoda off guard and hit him/or the effects have still hit Yoda as well despite his best efforts to completely redirect the force. Voldemort's quick wrist like movements are going to make it very difficult for Yoda who seems to struggle with force lightning.


Yoda has never disarmed an opposing/experienced jedi's lightsaber before nor has Voldemort ever been disarmed by an opposing wizard's tk. The likelihood of Yoda hitting him an attack will have the same effect on Voldemort as it did on Palpatine in the movies. It will knock him back. Unlike Yoda and his lack of disarming movie feats at least Voldemort has effectively disarmed someone through tk while Yoda's claims to fame are tking huge inanimate objects or force pushing someone.


Yes, a lightsaber throw is a risk maneuver. If Yoda missed or Voldemort wards it off with energy blasts or what not Yoda is effectively weaponless and is a sitting duck. Yoda also with a lightsaber struggled with warding off a force lightning attack with his saber so it won't be easily accomplished since Voldemort will be sending all kinds of hell at him and in quick succession.


I don't think he's screwed here due to the fact his dark robes will be effective if they grab a hold of Yoda but granted I don't see this as a likely option either as I believe Yoda will be dead before he ever gets this up close and personal.


Another example of Harry greatly benefiting from the environment and the sheer confusion of Voldemort. Voldemort had just experienced his greatest triumph and gloat over those who opposed him at the school to just see Harry Potter get up and scurry off before his eyes. Harry also quickly got behind something a wall I believe off memory and evade him for the time being. Yoda won't benefit from the environment of Hogwarts just like Voldemort won't benefit from the Ministry room.

How does Voldemort need to up his reflexes when far less in terms of movie time has hit Yoda and temp ko'd him. Slowly raising your hands against someone you know is going to kill you and blasting him isn't an impressive showing of precog. This is a legit showing of Yoda being caught by an obvious attack against a highly skilled opponent with a ranged attack similar to Voldemort. Voldemort has many more options than energy blasts though along with more abilities. If Yoda gets hit once with Avada Kedavra it's a kill shot.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
This is a faulty rebuttal, Quanchi:

1. Sidious and Yoda had not begun fighting. They were engaged in wordplay when Sidious decided to taunt Yoda by firing a casual Force Lightning smack into his face. It is assumed Yoda is combat-ready at the start of his battle against Voldemort.

2. The 'slower' reactions (with Yoda hit by Force Lightning and Sidious hit by Force Push) are included to draw out, in dramatic effect, the confrontation between the two greatest Force-sensitives up to that time.

3. This is certainly Yoda's lowest showing.

Couple minutes later you see him dodging an avalanche of Senate pods. When he returns to engage Sidious on the repulsorpod, he lands close to the ledge, a precarious position. Here Sidious bombards him with Force Storm (which had the power to blast Windu across Coruscant) at point-blank range. The attack knocks away Yoda's lightsaber, but the Grand Master has the precog/reflexes/speed/strength to erect a potent defense single-handed (before resorting to both hands) on an insecure position.

Therefore, what you saw earlier contradicts all the other examples I have shown of his incredible precog/senses/speed.



Okay, sure. The only method Voldemort has of possibly avoiding a lightsaber up his throat is by apparating as often as he can to maintain distance from Yoda.

However, as I mentioned in my opening argument, wizarding duels usually involve two opponents a short distance away pummeling spells at each other. Apparition, as I have discussed earlier, doesn't seem to be as viable of an option in such a contest (not to mention, sneak attacks won't be effective against Yoda). As a result, Voldemort may be unprepared to utilize it to such an extent. Furthermore, Voldemort's offensive nature (and arrogant personality) suggests he won't let himself to be overwhelmed and put on the defensive (which is what will happen, though) by an insignificant little creature.

Therefore, while Apparition is Voldemort's most crucial ability in this battle, he would have tremendous reservations using it to the degree that would be expected in this fight.

Finally, returning back to what you mentioned: Yoda can use Force Sense to detect ripples in the Force. Somebody like Voldemort, who is immersed in the Dark Side and is quite powerful, would be as easy to recognize as smelling putrid odor while standing next to a dumpster. Therefore, if Voldemort apparates behind Yoda, the Grand Master would have already anticipated his presence and would have 'seen' the next attack. 1. How is it a fault argument ? I am only using it to display how unsuccessful his precog is. Voldemort wasn't ready for Harry Potter either when he tk'd the wand out of his hand but rather reacted accordingly when he realized it. Yoda also didn't adjust his hands to redirect it as he could have showing precog for all intents and purposes can even miss the obvious. Harry also didn't slowly raise his wand up to Voldemort like Palpatine did to Yoda.

2.You can't have it both ways. Harry Potter surviving and dodging Voldemort's attacks are drawing out the epic confrontation between the two as well. I argue on what happens alone not the subjectivity how the director was trying to create a sense of lasting drama.

3.Yes, but Yoda only has two showings against two highly skilled opponents. One can't ignore how pitiful and how obvious what Palpatine was planning on doing with his hands. Did Yoda honestly think he was going to clap or give him the finger ?

Yes, he dodges the senate pods but this shouldn't even be an issue since his precog is supposedly this good and factoring in the distance between the pods from Yoda. Yoda was fighting for his life he wasn't in control at all. When Voldemort was fighting against Dumbledore who sported the most powerful wand in existence he still looked firmly in control while Dumbledore looked like he was trying to keep up.

In an earlier post I explained the weather and the wind also had something to do with it as well as the duration under the force lightning Windu experienced. Palpatine hit Yoda with force lightning at the start of their fight and didn't go back more than twenty feet let alone the hundred or so feet you're claiming was all due to force lightning. It shows Yoda needs proper leverage to wield off energy attacks and despite having it where he wanted it this still didn't save his lightsaber from falling.

It doesn't contradict anything these aren't simulations these are characters who can fall victim to certain attacks and repel certain ones. It's like saying the new England Patriots defeat by The jets in the playoffs shouldn't stand since prior to New England routed them. Yoda while incredibly skilled can be hit and has been hit. He was hit by two force lightning attacks and was unsuccessful in critically injuring Palpatine.

I don't see Voldemort as being the one who will be pressed here I see him easily overwhelming Yoda with his ranged attacks. But he does have the option of apparating which will create distance provided Yoda closes in on him.

Voldemort apparated against Harry Potter so why won't he apparate here ? I mean he's already done so on film and he isn't fighting a wizard anyways so what he does against wizards really carries no weight against what he would do against a jedi.

Voldemort may be arrogant but he is indeed intelligent and suffered no shortcomings against Dumbledore. He fought intelligently and for the kill against Dumbledore without any of these supposed shortcomings coming into play.

I only see him needing to use it once at most if that as this fight should be over pretty quickly.

You can't have it both ways. You just attributed the dark side type aspect of himself giving Voldemort away but it also clouds the Force. It also failed Yoda when Palpatine started off the battle he obviously raised his hands to attack him. If Yoda can't see this blatant attack coming don't presume he will be all over Voldemort's next move.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. All right, I am going to deviate and discuss what I call the "Jedi Point of View." George Lucas has stated the limitations of portraying Jedi and Sith with human actors since obviously none of them have actual superhuman reflexes and speed. As a result, what we see in the film are fights that are fast, but still at human level.

Therefore, this leads to the "Jedi POV." Basically, the fights depicted should be seen from the frame of reference of a Jedi. Essentially, the duels in the films would be a blur if we viewed it with human senses. However, by perceiving it as a Jedi (therefore on an equal level as the combatants), you see it as how it is depicted by the actors.

Do you understand what I am saying? Basically, what you might think as a "slow" move by Dooku is actually tremendously fast because you are viewing the duel from a Jedi POV.

2. You realize Dooku was one of the Order's finest Jedi (he could outspar Mace Windu) and that he tooled Obi-Wan and Anakin (both of whom are already highly regarded Jedi by this point) just prior to fighting Yoda. Secondly, Yoda did not wish to slay his "old Padawan". He had a personal connection with Dooku and it's obvious he wanted to capture, not kill, him to find out why he had fallen to the Dark Side. If Yoda intended on finishing Dooku, he definitely would have came in with a stronger assault. Skywalker, tapping into his Chosen One potential, and with an intent to kill was able to defeat Dooku that rapidly. It should not be held against Yoda if he couldn't finish a powerful opponent (one of the finest swordsmen in the Order) that he had no desire of killing. Even then, Dooku was forced to flee because Yoda was already overwhelming him.

3. Yoda had to break concentration to secure the pillar and completely ensure that it wouldn't have the chance of accidently landing or rolling onto Anakin or Obi-Wan. That is why it took that much time. Yoda won't have to worry about others in this fight.

4. And did you see the clips of Kenobi and Yoda infiltrating the Temple against the 501st or the Grand Master's beheading of Gree and his Clone trooper? Those are two occasions where he doesn't show weakness of not being able to finish his opponents.

5. How is it against Yoda that he couldn't finish Sidious? He was the one who dominated close combat to the degree that the Sith Lord had to flee to higher ground. If the two weren't fighting on a repulsorpod at the end, Yoda wouldn't have been thrown hundreds of feet downward. After that, it's the Grand Master's realization about the failure of the Jedi Order and the dynamism of the Sith, along with incoming Clone troopers, that forced him to retreat.




Wait what are you saying? Only reason why Sidious disarmed Yoda at the end was because the Grand Master had no traction on the Senate pod he had just landed upon and the Force Storm was unleashed at point-blank range. Still, Yoda 'beats' Sidious in that energy exchange.

And your second part makes no sense since the two weren't fighting yet.



This battle takes place in an arena, on neutral ground. Higher ground is irrelevant.

Besides, I don't hold it against Yoda if Sidious, the most powerful Sith, managed to get to higher ground. Fact remains that despite that disadvantage, Yoda was able to get back onto equal ground with Sidious and essentially 'win' the next sequence if it weren't for the fact they were fighting on a Senate pod that Yoda landed on the edge of.



Do you realize how much momentum that pod had before Yoda brought it to a complete standstill? He spun it and threw it back with greater speed (against gravity), which of course would take more time than flinging it downward.

I've more than enough discussed Yoda's absolutely phenomenal ability to withstand and redirect Palpatine's Force Lighting (that fired Windu a mile+ across Coruscant) at that range with that hazardous footing. How you manage to see this as a negative point for Yoda is beyond me.



No, Yoda understood halfway through the duel, before he spun back the repulsorpod, that Sith had changed and adapted for the better while the Jedi remained static under his leadership. This personal failure along with the shortcomings of the Jedi told Yoda that the Sith could not be defeated that day. This coupled with the arrival of Clone Troopers forced him to retreat.

Therefore, your argument that Yoda lacks a killer edge is moot (both against Dooku and against Sidious). Against Voldemort he won't have doubts, burdens, or sudden realizations, but rather a clear mind with a sole intention to kill. That's all fine and dandy but it's impossible to gauge if we went by Lucas' supposed jedi point of view. I argue based on what the films show me just like a Twilight vampire is shown on film with blurry speed then I will give their speed another gear but if it isn't shown then I won't just give into George Lucas who seems to change his mind when the wind blows.

I get exactly what you're saying but it makes it impossible to gauge and all guesswork due to Lucas' words alone which are subject to change.


2.Yes, I realize Count Dooku was highly skilled. I already discussed earlier despite this Anakin destroys him the moment he lets loose his rage onto him. Yoda didn't disarm Count Dooku as decisively or as easily as Anakin did despite being imo a better fighter than Anakin. Anakin didn't kill hm to beat him he killed him after disarming him only through Palpatine's goading. Yoda still had ample time to do so. Yes, Yoda probably would have won if the fight had played it but Yoda not being able to do so or being unable to stop Dooku's tk attack without taking a tremendous amount of time and focus is unforgivable.

3.Yoda had to break from the fight to concentrate just like he did against the pod thrown right at him in the senate chamber due to it's immense size. That's why it took Yoda all that time. It's obvious the heavier the object the more focus and concentration it takes.


4.Yoda can easily and quickly finish off unskilled opponents far beneath his pay grade. My argument has always been an exceptional opponent he doesn't for the kill and isn't aggressive enough.


5.I honestly don't see Yoda dominating Palpatine at all. They seemed dead even to me but Palpatine just needed to survive this conflict so separating and gaining higher ground benefited him two fold. He had the higher ground and it increased his chances of survival creating space between the two. Yoda sought out his death Palpatine knew if he survived this they wouldn't have another chance and that Yoda could do nothing further to stop Palpatine's plans.

How does Yoda win in that energy exchange ? It ends up hitting them both and Yoda hits the dirt not Palpatine. So to me I see Yoda as temporarily resisting only to affect him in the end and for it also to affect Palpatine as well. since Palpatine held onto the pod he definitely won that exchange since neither of them were critically hurt.

I am not referencing the higher ground as any advantage Voldemort needs only attacking Yoda's mindset when he knows fully well he's at a disadvantage against Palpatine and allowing such a mistake in the first place despite being more elusive/mobile than Palpatine.

Yes, I understand this. I also understand all three times Yoda moved a huge object he needed his complete concentration and an assload of time to do so. Every single time so despite him needing to stop the momentum there are other examples of the drawn out process taking place each time this occurs.

I've already explained to you there were other factors present in the Windu force lightning feat and he's hit Yoda with it before and it sent him nowhere near that distance.


No, Yoda failing himself to kill Palpatine which he himself readily admits is on him. Yoda had the chance and failed. Yoda had the chance against the Count and failed. Two other jedi succeeded where he failed. It's point blank and doesn't get any more crystal clear. When Yoda is matched up with greatly skilled opponents it's a long fight he isn't aggressive enough to win/kill within a short amount of time unless fighting someone far below the skills of a jedi.

Yoda won't have time to doubt himself or think of anything other than evading for his life against Voldemort who will pour it on from start to finish.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. JHis TK feats took some time because they were on a much higher scale than anything Voldemort has ever done.

2. The elimination of the Royal Guards wasn't quick?

3. Jedi POV for the TK acts against Dooku and Sidious.

4. Voldemort's TK isn't quick at all (and it's nothing compared to Yoda's) and I've touched on this in an earlier post.



You just hurt your own argument in this paragraph. The only reason Voldemort didn't miss is because Harry was standing still and ready to die.

You yourself accept that Voldemort misses when Potter is "evading him later on." Unless you think Yoda is going to lean on his stick and do this:



He will be dodging, and dodging very well.



1. Considering Neville was standing defiantly at the center and ready to charge, it's pretty apparent why he was KO'd.

2. What prevented you from seeing the whole "Yoda is holding onto his cane and talking to Sidious, clearly not ready for battle and therefore unprepared for the blast " or "Plot device intended to draw out the confrontation" that was quite apparent in the scene?

3. He dies by Avada Kedavra if it hits him, which isn't going to happen. 1.Yes, they took longer a lot longer meaning they aren't applicable here. Him force pushing his opponents has done nothing than hurt them by pushing them back and koing unsuspecting guards.

2.Yes, but the guards weren't ready for it whereas harry initially attacked Voldemort first.

3.Not going to fly here with the POV stuff. That calls everything they do on screen into question and has all just guessing how fast on everything.

4.It sure seemed quick against Harry. Yoda can tk about just as quick as Voldemort by moving his hands/wrist. Yoda tking out the guards or tking Palpatine didn't seem any more impressive and unlike bot of those situations neither Palpatine nor the guards were trying to attack when they got hit by it.

Yoda won't be jumping through different levels off a school or hiding behind walls. Yoda will be out in the open and when Harry was Voldemort was all over him. How often did Yoda ever evade force lightning ? Did he ever ? That brings up a serious point since it doesn't even seem like Yoda was fast enough to evade it just to block it, get hit by it, or try to redirect it.


Neville was actively opposing Voldemort and was ko'd with one shot. He was ready for battle so the excuse of him being unaware doesn't fly. Now had Neville been standing up guarding something and been blasted unaware of Voldemort's presence then you'd have a point but since he's charging into battle you don't.

2.Then you admit his precog is off and won't react to every attack. Voldemort wasn't holding his wand up to Harry when he tried to attack Voldemort but was more than quick enough to react when he turned around. If Yoda's precog is so good why couldn't or didn't he react to the obvious attack ?

3.Don't worry it will since force lightning has hit him I see no reason as to think it's ludicrous that the Avada Kedavra won't.

Did Yoda ever successfully block force lightning with his lightsaber ? Not one time yet the only time he did attempt to he lost his saber yet you're completely convinced He easily can deflect Voldemort's attacks without any proof of him even doing so within his own films.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Magic is assumed as a form of energy. Tutaminis absorbs, dissipates, and/or redirects concentrated energy attacks, which are what most spells in Harry Potter are.

Your right that Yoda can't block/redirect Fiendfyre and Crucio because they are different in style and essence than Avada Kadavra. But the Killing Curse is similar to Force Lightning.

http://images.wikia.com/harrypotter/images/5/54/Avada_Kedavra.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oLbtTQY0cnE/TJmVBOpT1kI/AAAAAAAAAHU/bwuELFHjyV8/s1600/PalpatineLightning.jpg

And Sidious's Force Storm, which can send a master Jedi soaring across Coruscant with tremendous propulsion, is now in a "little league." Please.

Even Dooku's Force Lightning, which he seemed to do rather casually in the clip I show below, had the ability to lift up and slam Anakin against the wall, forcing him out of the duel for several minutes. Yoda, later on, easily (not once troubled) gathers in his palms a stronger version of that Lightning and redirects it into a pure energy bolt.

Dooku's Lightning



1. This is flawed logic Quan. You are making it seem that just because Yoda lost his lightsaber once in combat, he is suddenly easy for Voldemort to disarm. And then you continue saying because Voldemort only lost his wand once to "X" reason, Yoda won't have the capability of disarming him in battle. Yoda's telekinesis could instantly disarm Voldemort or return his lightsaber to him should he lose it.

bash him against the ground, simultaneously breaking his spine and knocking him out.

2. "If Yoda is disarmed he's a sitting duck..." What? Yoda can't dodge or use tutaminis anymore if he loses his lightsaber? Yoda can't use TK to bash Voldemort against the ground, simultaneously breaking his spine and knocking him out? Or throw Voldemort across the arena? You still haven't shown me how Voldemort can counter Yoda's telekinesis.

3. You are assuming Voldemort can physically keep up with Yoda and be able to disarm the Grand Master and then have the time to hit him with the Killing Curse. However, this assumption is false since Voldemort hasn't shown any superhuman senses or reflexes.



Yoda's lightsaber fell hundreds of feet below. Furthermore, the more pressing matter was the bombardment of lightning that Sidious was unleashing that Yoda had to counter. The duel ended after the energy exchange. If the battle was on neutral ground, you can be sure he would have Force Pull-ed his lightsaber.



I don't know about you, but I'm certain that opening spell by Voldemort was Avada Kadavra. Harry Potter Wiki also seems to agree...

...which if true, would kill everything you said above.


And Voldemort has always been no-nonsense. Avada Kadavra is his trademark and most effective spell. We seem killing the Potters and Frank Bryce in the films with this curse. Voldemort isn't going to be bothered on weakening his opponent when he knows that if Avada Kadavra hits, he will win no matter the condition of his opponent.




No, you haven't. You took the lowest showing of Yoda in a plot-drive sequence aimed to set up the titanic battle between Dark Lord of the Sith and Jedi Grand Master and a moment when he wasn't even in battle-mode as your only defense against Yoda's precognition, Force sense, and speed.

You have attempted to show that Yoda doesn't have superhuman reflexes and speed due to one singular instance; apart from that, you have no argument as to how Voldemort can counter Yoda's abilities and TK. You have proven Voldemort has firepower; an argument both you and I and everyone else is aware of. However, you haven't shown how this firepower would actually work against an opponent that can comfortably dodge (since spells in Harry Potter can be avoided if you just run to the side). You have tried to portray Voldemort as having fast reflexes based on his various interactions with Harry Potter, but all those moments show Harry in a compromised position and therefore don't come off as impressive showings. The killing curse kills you instantly so he won't be alive to redirect it. We also don't even see him completely redirect the force lightning as the blast hits the both of them despite Yoda's best efforts to completely redirect it back at Palpatine.


Yes, it's little league because it hasn't killed anyone with a blast or two. The Avada Kedavra is a oneshot kill method aka "Big Leagues." Even against Luke Skywalker he needed quite a bit of time to kill Luke with it who still easily recovered after Darth Vader tossed him down the shaft. Sending Windu out the window into gusts of wind and going all out on a then defenseless Windu due to Anakin's actions reeks of taking advantage of the situation.

Yes, Dooku's lightning seemed weaker than even Palpatine's whom Luke survived despite the duration of the attacks on him and to which Yoda couldn't even completely redirect against Palpatine alone. Weak sauce.


1.Yoda's never disarmed any skilled opponent with tk in his own films and Voldemort's never been disarmed by another wizard's tk so the only logical conclusion is it doesn't happen here. You criticize me for saying Voldemort can't start out the fight with a basilisk since in Order of the Phoenix it's his second attack but then by the same token you can't argument for Yoda to suddenly disarm his opponents main weapon despite never doing so himself in his own movies. If he tks it's usually in self defense of force pushing someone. That's fair and consistent to how we've been arguing this from the start.


2.There's no proof anyone's spine was broken and those guards were completely unaware. Yoda didn't even really hurt Palpatine by his force tk attack so I really don't think you have a leg to stand on. Voldemort can keep him busy with his offensive powers, send a basilisk at him, use tk of his own, etc. Take your pick. Yoda also despite effectively tking Palpatine doesn't keep doing so. It's not in character just like Voldemort won't keep trying to knock Yoda's lightsaber out from him with his own tk when Yoda starts jumping around. I'm consistent to what I see on film I don't create feats which were never done on film and argue that way.

3.I've seen Voldemort move and likewise Yoda move. Yoda isn't a blur nor have his reactions been bullet speed or anywhere else. Yoda deflecting a laser blast to me is similar to Voldemort deflecting or parrying an offensive blast from an opposing wizard. They both are highly skilled and happen to be at the top of the class from their respective universes.


Just like if his saber falls down he will have to worry about Voldemort's attacks which will probably be coming right for Yoda who has never ever evaded force lightning.

Harry Potter wiki also has to do with the books as well they don't differentiate from the movies and the books and it becomes a tangled mess. When do you hear him say Avada Kedavra ? I've never heard him say it against Dumbledore. I don't own the movie so I can't subtitle it. If you can't prove he says it within the subtitle option then he doesn't try to use it against Dumbledore as it has to be spoken.


I agree he uses it a lot I just don't see him doing it at all against Dumbledore in the Order of the Phoenix scene nor do I see him use it against Snape, or Neville. If it fails to hit or connect expect a lot of other attacks not just repeated Avada Kedavra attacks.


You're trying to ham up Yoda's showings of taking out two troopers while excusing an equally skilled opponent blasting him and then excusing it as furthering the plot. Precog should put his mind in battle mode since it was obvious even to me what Palpatine's intentions were here.

Blatantly untrue. I have also gone into detail about how warped your view is with regards to Yoda lifting huge objects with his tk which requires all his focus and I have also established it isn't in character for Yoda to tk his opponent into submission or disarm a skilled opponent since he's never done so on film. My arguments are based off what Voldemort has done on film and varying it while you criticize me for having him use Fiendfyre while at the same time argue Yoda just tk disarms him or breaks his spine which is completely unsupportable. If you want to argue based on powersets alone and their abilities Voldemort absolutely destroys Yoda due to apparating and sending fire creatures at him.

I don't want to argue based off of abilities but rather what's in character and it isn't in character for Yoda to disarm his opponents since he's never done so. Yoda can force push him as he's done so in the films so that's an agreeable option and something supportable by the films as he's done it.

You seem to forget Voldemort's duel with Dumbledore which is by far his most impressive showing. Harry Potter survived due to loads of help from his dead parents, Dumbledore, the Elder wand not rightfully being his, and his mother's initial protective spell. Harry should have been dead multiple times had he not had aid. Yoda doesn't have the luxury of surviving an Avada Kedavra or having a horcrux built into him like Harry does.



Also Yoda hasn't evaded force lightning or successfully blocked it on screen. Now I think he can but acting like it's easily done is another matter altogether so it isn't a foregone conclusion that Yoda just easily dodges and blocks what Voldemort unleashes on him. If Voldemort sends Fiendfyre after him it ends quickly. Yoda has no way to slay the fire magic.

Holy hendeca-post!

Voldemort's destruction of the protection barrier had nothing to do with the Elder Wand in terms of power utilized; the book and film make it abundantly clear that the wand is not only limiting the power Voldemort can use, the latter actually shows the wand actively resisting him and destroying itself. Voldemort shattered the barrier because of his own natural potency, not any advantage afforded by the Deathstick, which is why he confronts and murders Snape shortly afterwards.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Voldemort's destruction of the protection barrier had nothing to do with the Elder Wand in terms of power utilized; the book and film make it abundantly clear that the wand is not only limiting the power Voldemort can use, the latter actually shows the wand actively resisting him and destroying itself. Voldemort shattered the barrier because of his own natural potency, not any advantage afforded by the Deathstick, which is why he confronts and murders Snape shortly afterwards. I've already addressed this in my detailed responses. Despite it somewhat resisting him it's still far more powerful than any other wand based off of this feat so regardless of your beliefs whether or not it's the Elder nd's power or just Voldemort's natural power with a wand the point is clear it's tremendous. I also covered in my debate why I don't think the wand will resist him against Yoda.



I already covered why the wand resisted him at this point and everything he did with the wand basically in other detailed responses.
Now don't respond further here and speculate in the other thread where it's deemed acceptable.

Korto I already summed this up in my responses so no point in responding to this as I already covered it and can't resist someone attacking my points in the official battlezone thread.

Respond in this thread if you have to but it's better if you wait until the battlezone is over imo.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=553185&pagenumber=2

Yeah hey, please respond in the other thread if you think Quanchi or I made an illogical argument. The battlezone is a 1 v. 1 affair, or at least this particular debate is.

Time for a posting assault....

I won't be able to get on here past tonight for days but I do feel this debate has run it's course. The only thing I will be posting is a summation of my points along with an addendum to address any last minute points he disagrees with aside from the stuff we've already covered and then some.

Just was able to log in today. I'll respond either later today or tomorrow when I have time with my final summation.

All right!

Summation



1.Ranged Combat

This is Voldemort's greatest strength over Yoda. This is undeniable however you spin it. Voldemort can effectively unleash his attacks from any distance against Yoda whereas Yoda only possesses two forms of ranged combat. Telekinesis which Voldemort also possesses and the Yoda's option of tossing his light saber. I will get into telekinesis in depth later on in my final summation.

If Yoda decides to toss his light saber he runs the huge risk of being weaponless despite his energy dispersing powers which failed against Palpatine on the senate pod. Voldemort can definitely react with time to spare should Yoda choose this method of attack on him. We've seen someone comparable to Voldemort in terms of skill along with having the added advantage of wielding the Elder wand. Despite wielding the most powerful wand in existence Voldemort fought him to a stalemate and arguable got the better of him in their short duel at the end of Order of the Phoenix. We saw how quickly Voldemort reacted to Dumbledore repelling the fire magic in his direction and dissipating it.

Throughout this fight we also see him hold onto his wand while being trapped in a water bubble against his will and later breaking free from it. Voldemort immediately launches an attack showing how quick he can counter despite being without oxygen before Dumbledore can get the jump on him.

Fiendfyre --I see Vos is still making claims he can't back up. It's up to him to prove Voldemort needs to control the fire snake not just assume he needs all his concentration to do so when it's never been alluded to in the film. We also see Dumbledore control this fire spell easily while severely weakened so it's asinine and without merit to believe Voldemort needs all his concentration to maintain control of the fire snake. Like I said earlier even when losing control like the inexperienced Slytherin child the fire magic still seeks to destroy until stopped and Voldemort can easily dissipate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKxk9-z-dwY&feature=related

Energy attacks --Voldemort can either fire pure energy from his wand or the death curse in energy form from his wand. This will require all of Yoda's concentration with or without his light saber. When he went up against a powerful energy wielder in Palpatine he was temporarily ko'd when struck, he was disarmed the second time while attempting to block it with his saber, and was hit by some force when he tried to redirect it against Palpatine.

This doesn't bode well since Voldemort will be flicking energy effortlessly the entire fight in his direction not just a few times like Palpatine. Yoda was unsuccessful both times when Palpatine did use this method of attack. To put it frankly Voldemort will be attacking him relentlessly with attacks that pack a whallop on pure force alone and a killing curse that oneshots the enemy.


Other Methods of Range Attack --Crucio, Dark Matter, Cutting Wand attacks, and Fire attacks.

I've already gone into these earlier in my arguments just wanted to lay this out there in his arsenal again at the close of my debate. These are all methods of attacks which will be wielding at Yoda in succession should he dodge or deflect an attack or so due to his own abilities. Two of these options only have to be pointed in Yoda's direction to work as well.

2.Apparation


This ability puts as much distance Voldemort wants to put between himself and Yoda. We hear he can even do so wandless in Deathly Hallows part 1 after his wand cracks apart in the sky. This ability will always keep Yoda on his toes to use all his senses just to survive very much in the same fashion against Palpatine when he avoided the senate pods.

Voldemort is a veteran and someone who adapts accordingly in battle to his opponent. I reference the Dumbledore battle in which he used differing attack after attack and thwarted Dumbledore's attacks just the same. Voldemort would capitalize on Yoda's lack of ranged attacks and pour it on from the onset to the close.

3.Flight

Voldemort also has the ability to use flight in battle like he did against Harry Potter in Deathly Hallows part 1. Voldemort can pour on energy attacks while taking flight so this is another ability he can use to create more distance between himself and Yoda should he feel the need to do so.


4.Telekinesis

Ok, you've seen the back and forth from both myself and Vos on this matter but I ask you to take a step back a moment and to logically think about this for a second. All skilled wizards seem to possess tk as do all skilled jedi and sith. Here in this video we see Snape use it I believe 45 seconds in to shut Voldemort's annoying toady out of the room right before he later decides to make the unbreakable vow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_2iNyKKXD4


I've shown multiple wizards such as Voldemort, Dumbledore, Snape, and Umbridge. Does it honestly make any sense that if a few wizards band together and use tk they can easily disarm Voldemort ? Does it ? It doesn't make any sense just like it doesn't make any sense with regards to the star wars characters either. Just like with Voldemort or Yoda you need to catch them off guard to do so. Voldemort shows he can disarm harry Potter in Order of the Phoenix but this doesn't mean he can do so at will every time he runs into Harry Potter. It's simply illogical to assume all one needs to do is try this method of attack and poor there goes Voldemort's wand right out of his hand. The reason I say it is unlikely is due to the fact all skilled wizards possess this ability yet no one has successfully done so on screen against Voldemort showing logically this isn't an easy feat nor one in which Yoda accomplished against skilled opponents in his own movie making it even more unlikely.




In the end you have to ask yourself and look at it from a logical perspective with the tk feats from both sets of films. To me logically it's about catching your opponent off guard otherwise the light saber battles or the duels are meaningless just disarm them with the unbeatable tk.


5.Precog

This is another greatly debated point in this battlezone. Precog has always been vague in the movies and never clearly defined. It's also flat out failed before. The two instances I directly speak of are once again Palpatine's slow hand raising blast of Yoda while he looked completely stunned and was caught off guard. Now if his precog is all that why didn't he raise his hands up to redirect the energy in time when even I saw the attack coming from a mile away. The second instance I speak of is Dooku's tk attack on his friends. Yoda should have anticipated the attack or used his own tk to overpower it since that's how vos mistakenly believes tk works. Yoda stood there and then reacted which took many seconds along with his entire concentration to accomplish. This second instance is in the heat of battle while both combatants are saber locked so he has no excuse to wait and react until the damage is done. This precog while still formidable is exaggerated to insane levels here.

6.Clone Trooper feats

I wanted to address this one last time again because vos keeps exaggerating the feats. I put up a video earlier of a young padawan successfully taking out multiple clone troopers in combat. This padawan seems in his early teens at the most. He was still able to take out multiple troopers by himself and he doesn't even come close to approaching Yoda or any other elite jedi like Obi for instance in terms of experience, skill, and overall power. To act as if Obi and Yoda as a team taking out a small number of clones which is exactly why they chose this time as an opportunity because of little resistance as some kind of impressive feat is a slap in the face. The clones like the giants, centaurs, or spiders in the Harry Potter verse can't compete with skilled wizards just like the clones can't do so only when they have the element of surprise or massively outnumber them. The wizards just like the sith/jedi stand atop their own verse in terms of formidability.





7.Conclusion: It's easy to see the strengths and weaknesses of both characters here even if you have a very limited knowledge of these two coming into this debate. Voldemort's strengths are his ranged combat, his versatility, and raw power he brings to the table while Yoda brings elusiveness, maneuverability, his precog, and being a very high level skilled swordsman in the form of a lightsaber. It's quite clear Yoda wants to close the distance to kill Voldemort or disarm him if possible whereas Voldemort wants to kill him at a safe distance and disarm him as well. Voldemort has the abilities though unlike Yoda to make sure this thing never gets too close for comfort so to speak. He can apparate at will even minus his wand if need be. Unlike Yoda's main adversary Palpatine Voldemort has two attacks that mean instant death if they come into contact with Yoda; Fiendfyre and Avada Kedavra. Yoda didn't seem in control at all during his battle with Palpatine with the fate of the galaxy on the line against someone who can't teleport like Voldemort at will. Yoda will be dodging attacks in the same vein while never being in control and just fighting to survive like he did in his failed attempt at Palpatine's life. My arguments are supported by the movies and how the characters think and fight along with my points actually occurring on film unlike Vos' main points. In the end Yoda never gets close to Voldemort and is killed in a variety of ways. Most likely it will be the killing curse which does Yoda in but just like against Palpatine once distance is established this dramatically cuts off Yoda's strengths and makes him defensive while trying to close the distance and fighting to stay alive. Magic is Might.

I'd like to thank Vos for accepting this challenge and for being a good sport about this.


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4549/youlose.gif