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Luke and Yoda decide to have a tournament to see which Jedi order is capable of beating the other. They each get 3 Jedi from within their own order, and must lead them in battle against the other team.

Who would Yoda and Luke pick for their teammates, and who would win?

Setting: Jedi training grounds.

So this is a team of four including Yoda and Luke or a team of three including Yoda and Luke?

I think the latter.

Luke Skywalker:

1. Jacen Solo
2. Kyp Durron
3. Kyle Katarn

Yoda:

1. Mace Windu
2. Anakin Skywalker
3. Obi-Wan Kenobi

This would be a pretty ridiculous fight.

Pretty sure it's teams of four. OP says the grandmasters pick three Jedi each from their respective Orders and lead them into battle. Probably still the same folks, although I guess Obi-Wan might be interchangeable with any of the great warriors of the Old Order.

Originally posted by Eminence
Pretty sure it's teams of four. OP says the grandmasters pick three Jedi each from their respective Orders and lead them into battle. Probably still the same folks, although I guess Obi-Wan might be interchangeable with any of the great warriors of the Old Order.

Well, most post-OT Jedi can do fantastic abilities not replicated in the PT, but they lack formal saber training and life-long knowledge of the Forms, so I'm not sure who I'm inclined to give the edge to here.

Yes, this is 4v4.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Well, most post-OT Jedi can do fantastic abilities not replicated in the PT, but they lack formal saber training and life-long knowledge of the Forms, so I'm not sure who I'm inclined to give the edge to here.

Not replicated doesn't mean that it couldn't be replicated.

NJO had its own fighting style. Luke knows an amount about PT forms, but they know nothing of the NJO's. Not saying it would be an advantage either way.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Yes, this is 4v4.



Not replicated doesn't mean that it couldn't be replicated.

Yes, but the burden of proof is on the debater to show where PT Jedi performed X feat to counter Y ability. Foundations for what the Force more or less could and couldn't do wasn't in place before half of the post-OT stuff came out. If anythin, PT Jedi's relatively modest powers should be the standard and everything else should be ret-conned IMO.



I was almost tempted to say Quick, Medium and Strong, but that'd be laughable.

Yes, they are self trained. Yes, that presents a unique method of combat. But Jedi routinely destroy self-taught melee fighters from dozens of worlds before they make it to Knight status in most cases. Example - Barriss, Obi-Wan, Luminara, and Anakin all hold off a two-fronted all out grand melee without harming anyone, and without having foreknowledge of their fighting styles. They effectively form a box, disarm all comers in two directions, with a notable assortment of weapons ranging from blasters to spears, knives, axes, and swords of different lengths. Not killing folks in this situation just goes to add more to the accomplishment, as simply killing would take less effort and control.

So to make a long story short, I fail to see how NJO's home-brewed styles will give them a one-up in the long run when even less than top tier Jedi can adapt to and successfully combat unorthodox styles as proved above.

I'm really unfamiliar with the rank-and-file of the new Jedi order performing extraordinary feats of power. There are some yes, anomalies such as Kyp Durron and Jacen Solo, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I think Luke would pick:

Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, and Kyle Katarn

Yoda would pick:

Mace Windu, Master Dooku, Obi Wan

Winners? Whoever got to watch the fight.

Not so much levels of powers as say, unique powers.

I mean, look at the ray ability. That's pretty handy in a duel. Soak a saber blow with offhand, kill Jedi with other. Because it's presumably unique to a certain NJO Force user, the idea that PT Jedi would assume it and/or know how to counter it is questionable. This isn't a common ground like swinging a melee weapon is for all bipods; this is pulling a useful ability out of your ass at the last second.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Not so much levels of powers as say, unique powers.

I mean, look at the ray ability. That's pretty handy in a duel. Soak a saber blow with offhand, kill Jedi with other. Because it's presumably unique to a certain NJO Force user, the idea that PT Jedi would assume it and/or know how to counter it is questionable. This isn't a common ground like swinging a melee weapon is for all bipods; this is pulling a useful ability out of your ass at the last second.

If you're referring to Corran Horn's well noted ability, I would argue that it isn't exclusive to the new Jedi Order. Satele Shan demonstrates it, as does Yoda in his absorption and redirection of Force lightning.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So to make a long story short, I fail to see how NJO's home-brewed styles will give them a one-up in the long run when even less than top tier Jedi can adapt to and successfully combat unorthodox styles as proved above.

>.>

How about the team of Jedi Knights sent for the Myrkr mission? The Vong were pretty unorthodox. The Jedi showed great teamwork and coordination during a nearly impossible mission against overwhelming odds. And those were knights, the people in your example were all masters.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If you're referring to Corran Horn's well noted ability, I would argue that it isn't exclusive to the new Jedi Order. Satele Shan demonstrates it, as does Yoda in his absorption and redirection of Force lightning.

Actually, I meant this:

It's not conclusively the same as Yoda's absorption. And considering Yoda doesn't grab sabers with his hands, that's more to the point.



Oh don't get me wrong, the NJO Jedi had to be good to survive the Vong since their vaunted Force powers worked for shit there. I'm not trying to severely diminish them to mere thugs, but pointing out that their unorthodox learning isn't a clear advantage here, unless we can point out specifics.

As for those Jedi? Hah! It's right before AotC. Technically, only Obi-Wan and Luminara were masters at that point; Barriss and Anakin were padawans and not very advanced either.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If you're referring to Corran Horn's well noted ability, I would argue that it isn't exclusive to the new Jedi Order. Satele Shan demonstrates it, as does Yoda in his absorption and redirection of Force lightning.

I think that is an ability Corran inherited from his bloodline IIRC. So no, it would not only have been shown in the NJO. His Grandfather or something was also a Jedi(I assume around Yoda's time).

Is what Corran can do and what Yoda did the same thing? Maybe. It would even be believeable that Corran's ancestor taught Yoda the skill. Maybe Yoda can only do it to an extent, maybe he has mastered it. Corran saved the entire jedi academy during their training(with several notable powerhouses present, unable to do anything).

Hopefully I remembered the correct info lol, otherwise...gonna look stupid

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I think that is an ability Corran inherited from his bloodline IIRC. So no, it would not only have been shown in the NJO. His Grandfather or something was also a Jedi(I assume around Yoda's time).

Is what Corran can do and what Yoda did the same thing? Maybe. It would even be believeable that Corran's ancestor taught Yoda the skill. Maybe Yoda can only do it to an extent, maybe he has mastered it. Corran saved the entire jedi academy during their training(with several notable powerhouses present, unable to do anything).

Hopefully I remembered the correct info lol, otherwise...gonna look stupid

No, you brought up a good point - it was bloodline related and therefore may not be as novel as I originally expected. So that counter argument puts at least one unique talent to rest.

So far, it's looking like this:

- Stacking up dueling ability of NJO versus PT.

PT Jedi learn from many of the 7 forms throughout their lives, fighting philosophies which serve different purposes. Since we're considering top tier combatants here and not scrubs using the Diplomat's Form, Soresu, Shien, Juyo/Vaapad and Ataru will be the most likely used, along with Sokan and Shii-Cho. Forms can seem predictable to those used to them, but novel to those not familiar.

NJO Jedi learned at older ages, so the lack of lifetime experience is a disadvantage. However, the brutal combat with the Vong is impressive. While it doesn't in itself solidify them above the PT, it does speak to their overall merit. We need more specific examples of higher level NJO prowess, since PT Jedi info is a dime a dozen.

Aren't Kyp Durron (Luke's finest apprentice, well, apart from Jacen Solo) and Kyle Katarn (Chuck Norris battlemaster) better than Corran Horn?

And I'll revise my former list and swap Obi-Wan for Dooku (with great pain, though).

Luke Skywalker
Jacen Solo
Kyp Durron
Kyle Katarn

Yoda
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker
Dooku

I see Yoda's team barely winning this encounter. I envision an arduous battle in which a bloodied Anakin and exhausted Yoda confront Luke, with everybody else dead around them. And then it takes the combined power of those two (with Anakin going into the "zone" to kill him (Anakin dies in the process with Yoda mortally wounded).

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Aren't Kyp Durron (Luke's finest apprentice, well, apart from Jacen Solo) and Kyle Katarn (Chuck Norris battlemaster) better than Corran Horn?

And I'll revise my former list and swap Obi-Wan for Dooku (with great pain, though).

Luke Skywalker
Jacen Solo
Kyp Durron
Kyle Katarn

Yoda
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker
Dooku

I see Yoda's team barely winning this encounter. I envision an arduous battle in which a bloodied Anakin and exhausted Yoda confront Luke, with everybody else dead around them. And then it takes the combined power of those two (with Anakin going into the "zone" to kill him (Anakin dies in the process with Yoda mortally wounded).

This greatly matters then, considering the line up - is this only as of the NJO books, or could this technically be each at their peak?

I mean, Mace, Yoda, Anakin AND Dooku on Team 2 is horrible overkill. Iirc, the only alpha duelists in the first team is Luke and maybe Jacen. Caedus would be better in turn. Kyle, while proficient for his era, learned late and he was never really 1337. Same with Kyp; Kyp's trump card always was his anger and his Force powers. He tends to fade into obscurity later on.

But Mace with his unique Vaapad/Shatterpoint and brutal Force strength, Yoda in general, Dooku with his Makashi mastery and ability to duel multiple foes with ease, blend his Force use into his combat, etc. Dooku's a TK expert as well as Yoda and Mace. And Anakin, while lacking the most Force mastery on his team, is a balls-out fierce fighter and can tie up if not destroy everyone on team 1 save for his son.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Aren't Kyp Durron (Luke's finest apprentice, well, apart from Jacen Solo) and Kyle Katarn (Chuck Norris battlemaster) better than Corran Horn?

I think Corran has better dueling feats than any of them, except Jacen.

You spit in Luke's face if you consider Jacen his finest apprentice.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This greatly matters then, considering the line up - is this only as of the NJO books, or could this technically be each at their peak?


At their peak while within the order.

Luke's team: Jacen, Jaina, and Kyp

Yoda's team: Windu, Anakin, and Dooku

I'm inclined to go with Luke's team.

You'd put Jaina over Kyle?

Yep. Jacen stomped Kyle pretty hard in LotF.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I think Corran has better dueling feats than any of them, except Jacen.

You spit in Luke's face if you consider Jacen his finest apprentice.



At their peak while within the order.

Jacen/Caedus becomes one of the most powerful of the NJO, if not second to Luke.

I consider that to be the "finest."



Neph asked about Jaina, not Jacen.

Jaina's not even a master, and she wouldn't have been able to stand against Caedus without Luke's help.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Jacen/Caedus becomes one of the most powerful of the NJO, if not second to Luke.
I consider that to be the "finest."


Jacen Solo was one of Luke's biggest failures. Finest at one point, in TUF, sure. Overall? Failure. His brother was the shining example of what Luke wanted to instill in his training.

If "finest" = most powerful, then I couldn't disagree. That isn't all there is to be a jedi though.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Neph asked about Jaina, not Jacen.

Sure. And Jaina holds her own against Jacen.

Originally posted by truejedi
Jaina's not even a master, and she wouldn't have been able to stand against Caedus without Luke's help.

Nor is Jacen for the matter. And she fared quite well against him the second time.

Sith Lord > Jedi Master. But I get your point.

Though if he counts as a real Sith Lord is another story.

Jaina holding her own against him is iffy. Iirc he really didn't want to kill her and was really distracted by various things and was being f'ed with by Luke to booooot.

you mean when he only had one arm, and didn't have time to fight her? really?

oh yeah and he had one arm

which means he was already down TWO hands. you try to fight while missing two hands.

Originally posted by truejedi
you mean when he only had one arm, and didn't have time to fight her? really?

Yep, however, I have no doubt that Jacen was doing all he could to escape/defeat her so he could warn Allana.


Hmm... Now I'm wondering how Mara Jade would stack up against Jaina and Kyle.

Mara is the Batman of Starwars so ooooobviously she'd win.

I think Mara v Jaina would be a good match.