Elders of the Universe vs Depowered Tyrant

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golem370
Elders Champion, Runner, Obliterator, Astronomer, Collector & Possessor. Who wins? 1st fight they are fighting with there normal powers 2nd Champion has the ppower gem and Runner has his gem

Bentley
Hard to say. The Collector can be pretty damn powerful, but the rest of the Elders are more or less fodder. No idea the kind of artifacts we can give him with standard equipment either.

With more than one hour prep the Collector stomps though.

Harbinger
Originally posted by Bentley
Hard to say. The Collector can be pretty damn powerful, but the rest of the Elders are more or less fodder. Runner?

Bentley
Yeah, I was thinking that after posting, but he wasn't really shown as a multiple herald booster, didn't he? He's certainly one of the strong suits of team one.

zopzop
Tyrant wins in both scenarios.

BullwinkleMoose
DP Tyrant is not winning at best for him it is a stalemate. He would never be able to touch Runner with Space Gem and with the Runner's aura might not even want to attack Runner.

Batman-Prime
Elders, both.

zopzop
Originally posted by BullwinkleMoose
DP Tyrant is not winning at best for him it is a stalemate. He would never be able to touch Runner with Space Gem and with the Runner's aura might not even want to attack Runner.

Tyrant isn't a living creature in the way Surfer is, he's a machine. Literally a cosmic powered robot. Would Runner's aura even work? It failed vs Thanos.

The Gems are notoriously ghetto when not backed by the Power Gem. Examples, Moondragon stalemating Prof X even though she had the Mind Gem. Thanos was going toe to toe with PG Thor till he got bored and force blocked him. That trick didn't work vs Odin.

Black bolt z
No grandmaster?

I'll say tyrant.

Galan007
Runner spanks that ass.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
Runner spanks that ass.

You sure about that? Runner's not going to be able to do this alone.

celestialdemon
First scenario, Tyrant wins after a good fight (especially since Grandmaster isn't there). Second scenario, Elders win.

Stoic
Originally posted by zopzop
Tyrant wins in both scenarios.

golem370
Elders have power primodial too

zopzop
Originally posted by golem370
Elders have power primodial too

And that didn't' stop Galactus from eating their asses like candy. If it wasn't for the pact with Death, that would have been the end of them. If Galactus can, then Tyrant can too.

Bentley
Originally posted by zopzop
And that didn't' stop Galactus from eating their asses like candy. If it wasn't for the pact with Death, that would have been the end of them. If Galactus can, then Tyrant can too.

Galactus >>>>> DP Tyrant.

Don't believe the hype.

zopzop
Originally posted by Bentley
Galactus >>>>> DP Tyrant.

Don't believe the hype.

Believe it. When the Silver Surfer himself can sense Galactus' fear of Tyrant through the rapport they share, you best believe Tyrant can stomp Galactus. Oh wait, he already did.

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by zopzop
Believe it. When the Silver Surfer himself can sense Galactus' fear of Tyrant through the rapport they share, you best believe Tyrant can stomp Galactus. Oh wait, he already did. Plot device

Harbinger
So.......Galactus can beat a full-powered version of Tyrant, but can't beat a weaker version of the same character?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JtWk7d3YRZo/SuihzsE4O-I/AAAAAAAAKBk/U7kbEKeVu7A/s800/gif_what.gif

Bentley
Originally posted by zopzop
Believe it. When the Silver Surfer himself can sense Galactus' fear of Tyrant through the rapport they share, you best believe Tyrant can stomp Galactus. Oh wait, he already did.


Rulk punked the Watcher, Doom punked Surfer. I don't know what makes Tyrant so special that people give him the benefit of doubt, it was clearly intended to be a plot device...

Deadline
Originally posted by Harbinger
So.......Galactus can beat a full-powered version of Tyrant, but can't beat a weaker version of the same character?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JtWk7d3YRZo/SuihzsE4O-I/AAAAAAAAKBk/U7kbEKeVu7A/s800/gif_what.gif

hahaha!

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Harbinger
So.......Galactus can beat a full-powered version of Tyrant, but can't beat a weaker version of the same character?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JtWk7d3YRZo/SuihzsE4O-I/AAAAAAAAKBk/U7kbEKeVu7A/s800/gif_what.gif

You're missing VERY basic concepts or you just didn't read the story... Tyrant had been gaining back his power for thousands of years before finally getting enough and was ready to challenge Galactus again. What we can then say is this... He more than likely gained back all the power he had lost, and more importantly, he is now more versed in his power then he was thousands of years before. What does this mean... DP Tyrant was even bit as powerful, if not more so, then when Galactus beat FP Tyrant. So while your gif was funny, it clearly means you didn't read the arc

Harbinger
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What we can then say is this... He more than likely gained back all the power he had lost, and more importantly, he is now more versed in his power then he was thousands of years before. What does this mean... DP Tyrant was even bit as powerful, if not more so, then when Galactus beat FP Tyrant. Complete and utter speculation does not a good post make, unfortunately.

Prove these:

A. Depowered Tyrant had recovered the entirety of the power Galactus had taken from him after their original fight.

B. Depowered Tyrant was either equal to or greater than the version that fought Galactus.

Him gathering power for thousands of years doesn't begin to equal that he'd recovered enough to become a Galactus -level being again. And given that Thanos + 1 power orb was giving him a decent run, I find it dubious to say that he was anywhere close to that level of power.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Harbinger
Him gathering power for thousands of years doesn't begin to equal that he'd recovered enough to become a Galactus -level being again. .

Actually he's been around for eons. He's just about old as Big G himself.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Harbinger
Complete and utter speculation does not a good post make, unfortunately.

Prove these:

A. Depowered Tyrant had recovered the entirety of the power Galactus had taken from him after their original fight.

B. Depowered Tyrant was either equal to or greater than the version that fought Galactus.

Him gathering power for thousands of years doesn't begin to equal that he'd recovered enough to become a Galactus -level being again. And given that Thanos + 1 power orb was giving him a decent run, I find it dubious to say that he was anywhere close to that level of power.

So you're asking for proof that you yourself cannot provide? Prove that he hadn't gained back all the power he had before? You can't right. The difference is who has more proof to support the claim that he had... That would clearly be me... The writer practically beat you over the head with various things which show one of three things.. Either he had gain back all his power... Had gained back enough power but was more versatile and experienced with said power... or both. Those are the ONLY logically conclusion you can reach going by the writer beating us over the head with these facts:

1. We see Tyrant saying he can finally come out of hiding because he's gained back power enough to challenge Galactus. What do we logically condluce from this... your theory... you would come out from hiding if you were still weaker than when you first challeged Galactus and lost? Does that make logical sense to you? No what makes sense is exactly what he said.. he's gained back enough power to AT LEAST be at where he was when he orginally fought Galactus and more then likely more powerful. Why else would you challenge somebody and think you can win if you were weaker than before?

2. Galactus was in fear of Tyrant and even BACKED DOWN the first time they encoutnered one another. Your theory.. if he was weaker then when Galactus first beat him.. why would he back down? Why would he be in fear for his life? He wouldn't would he? Unless of course.. he realized that Tyrant had been gaining back all of his lost power and was now even more experienced with it after thousands if not hundreds of thousands years...

3. Galactus decides to PREP and FEED before his encounter with Tyrant.. Your theory... why would a being who is mostly demeaning and condescending to combatants and NEVER preps or feeds decide to do so if he was weakter than when he first beat him.... Again logically you wouldn't need to do so would you? Galactus has fought Ego, mephisto, agamotto, In-Betweener and never once prepped or feed before his fights and thought he would have no issue with them. Yet here, he does so and your theory is for a weaker being then he already beat... Not logical.

4. Surfer who felt Galactus and Tyrants power.. said as he's RACING to the scene of the fight.. He felt Galactus fear and said he needs to hurry before they both DESTROY EACHOTHER. Your theory.. why would surfer be concerned about a being who he felt his power and it's much weaker than Big G's? Answer.. you wouldn't... You would only say that if you're dealing with beings very close in power with either having a chance to win. Much like the above seems to clearly dismiss the... Ooo he hadn't gained back his power.. there is no proof of this..

5. What do we know about the PC... that the more experience you gain with it... the more you can do with it and better in control you are with it. Prime example being surfer... So if Tyrant who's been around WAY WAY LONGER than Surfer... why wouldn't he also have gained vital expereince with his power? Answer it's not logical to think he wouldn't.. which means what... he's even more of a threat then when Big G first beat him.. Simple basic logic that it seems alludes you.

So when the writer goes out of his way to stay Tyrant has gained his power back and can challenge Big G and beats us over the head with the above facts.. yeah I take it to mean exactly that.

Harbinger
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you're asking for proof that you yourself cannot provide? Prove that he hadn't gained back all the power he had before? You can't right. The difference is who has more proof to support the claim that he had... That would clearly be me... The writer practically beat you over the head with various things which show one of three things.. Either he had gain back all his power... Had gained back enough power but was more versatile and experienced with said power... or both. Those are the ONLY logically conclusion you can reach going by the writer beating us over the head with these facts:

1. We see Tyrant saying he can finally come out of hiding because he's gained back power enough to challenge Galactus. What do we logically condluce from this... your theory... you would come out from hiding if you were still weaker than when you first challeged Galactus and lost? Does that make logical sense to you? No what makes sense is exactly what he said.. he's gained back enough power to AT LEAST be at where he was when he orginally fought Galactus and more then likely more powerful. Why else would you challenge somebody and think you can win if you were weaker than before?

2. Galactus was in fear of Tyrant and even BACKED DOWN the first time they encoutnered one another. Your theory.. if he was weaker then when Galactus first beat him.. why would he back down? Why would he be in fear for his life? He wouldn't would he? Unless of course.. he realized that Tyrant had been gaining back all of his lost power and was now even more experienced with it after thousands if not hundreds of thousands years...

3. Galactus decides to PREP and FEED before his encounter with Tyrant.. Your theory... why would a being who is mostly demeaning and condescending to combatants and NEVER preps or feeds decide to do so if he was weakter than when he first beat him.... Again logically you wouldn't need to do so would you? Galactus has fought Ego, mephisto, agamotto, In-Betweener and never once prepped or feed before his fights and thought he would have no issue with them. Yet here, he does so and your theory is for a weaker being then he already beat... Not logical.

4. Surfer who felt Galactus and Tyrants power.. said as he's RACING to the scene of the fight.. He felt Galactus fear and said he needs to hurry before they both DESTROY EACHOTHER. Your theory.. why would surfer be concerned about a being who he felt his power and it's much weaker than Big G's? Answer.. you wouldn't... You would only say that if you're dealing with beings very close in power with either having a chance to win. Much like the above seems to clearly dismiss the... Ooo he hadn't gained back his power.. there is no proof of this..

5. What do we know about the PC... that the more experience you gain with it... the more you can do with it and better in control you are with it. Prime example being surfer... So if Tyrant who's been around WAY WAY LONGER than Surfer... why wouldn't he also have gained vital expereince with his power? Answer it's not logical to think he wouldn't.. which means what... he's even more of a threat then when Big G first beat him.. Simple basic logic that it seems alludes you.

So when the writer goes out of his way to stay Tyrant has gained his power back and can challenge Big G and beats us over the head with the above facts.. yeah I take it to mean exactly that.

So you start by asking me to prove a negative? No, that's not how this works. You made the claim that Depowered Tyrant= Galactus. The burden's on you to prove that he is, not on me to prove that he isn't.

(None of this is in any particular order, BTW):

I never argued that Tyrant hadn't become more experienced with his powers, only that he'd become strong enough to be on Galactus's level. There's a world of difference between those two. Using Norrin, since he's the example you used, though he's gotten considerably better at using the PC, he's still needed upgrades from Galactus himself to make himself stronger overall. Experience with your powers does not translate to becoming stronger, as gaining experience does not increase your power. It only makes you better with the power your currently have.

Your argument would make a lot more sense if Tyrant had beaten Galactus straight up (IE, no plot devices), but he didn't. He absorbed Big G's energy blast and redirected the energy; he turned Big G's tech against him and absorbed his energy after he'd taken control of the BSE. Why would he do any of those things, why would he resort to those tactics, if he was stronger than Galactus to begin with?

And again, Thanos + 1 orb gave the same Tyrant a decent go. That doesn't equate to Tyrant already being on Galactus' level before they fought again.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Harbinger
So you start by asking me to prove a negative? No, that's not how this works. You made the claim that Depowered Tyrant= Galactus. The burden's on you to prove that he is, not on me to prove that he isn't.

(None of this is in any particular order, BTW):

I never argued that Tyrant hadn't become more experienced with his powers, only that he'd become strong enough to be on Galactus's level. There's a world of difference between those two. Using Norrin, since he's the example you used, though he's gotten considerably better at using the PC, he's still needed upgrades from Galactus himself to make himself stronger overall. Experience with your powers does not translate to becoming stronger, as gaining experience does not increase your power. It only makes you better with the power your currently have.

Your argument would make a lot more sense if Tyrant had beaten Galactus straight up (IE, no plot devices), but he didn't. He absorbed Big G's energy blast and redirected the energy; he turned Big G's tech against him and absorbed his energy after he'd taken control of the BSE. Why would he do any of those things, why would he resort to those tactics, if he was stronger than Galactus to begin with?

And again, Thanos + 1 orb gave the same Tyrant a decent go. That doesn't equate to Tyrant already being on Galactus' level before they fought again.

No what you're asking for is direct narration stating that Tyrant was more powerful than before which was never stated. That is you asking for proof that Tyrant could lift a bus... it was never shown.. so you can sit there and go see.. there is no proof.. Only thing is... we can deduce he could because of what was shown... JUST like we can deduce Tyrant has gained basic most if not more power by the facts I stated above. It doesn't need to be spelled out in the exact words you desire.

Don't think I didn't notice you not addressing ALL of the facts that support him having gained all of his power back. All of those facts CLEARLY point to him being as powerful if not more powerful. Don't think I didn't notice you skipping all of them. Your logical conclusion DOESN'T in anyway support the facts the writer beat us over the head with. Why don't you address one by one.. the facts I listed and tell me how they support the theory that Tyrant was less powerful than before? Problem is you can't.. it makes no logical sense for all of those things to have occured if Tyrant wasn't just as powerful if not more powerful than before.

Lastly, it doesn't matter how the fight went and how he won.. you would have a point if it was MADE CLEAR that Galactus was clearly more powerful and the only way Tyrant won was by plot device. Problem is, that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was told to us. What was told to us is that he's a legit threat who rivals Galactus in power.. So much so that Galactus feared for his life, backed down from a fight the first time and let him take his herald (because galaxies would be destroyed), had to feed and prep for battle.. etc etc... all these thing point to him being a rival in power to Galactus which is exactly how the fight played out. It doesn't matter how he won or if was a plot device or not. The writer went out of his way to let us know that Tyrant was a legit threat on on G's level... So it should come as no surpirse Tyrant won and doesn't matter how he won.. The writer beat you and I over the head with the facts above that let us know.. this was no fluke.

Harbinger
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No what you're asking for is direct narration stating that Tyrant was more powerful than before which was never stated. That is you asking for proof that Tyrant could lift a bus... it was never shown.. so you can sit there and go see.. there is no proof.. Only thing is... we can deduce he could because of what was shown... JUST like we can deduce Tyrant has gained basic most if not more power by the facts I stated above. It doesn't need to be spelled out in the exact words you desire.

Terrible, terrible analogy.

Tyrant was never shown to lift a bus, but he manhandled Jack of Hearts, Ganymede, Glads, BRB, Norrin, etc. like kids. Reasonably I can assume that he can lift a bus.

However, when you have a character--in this case, Tyrant--who uses indirect means to take down an opponent, it does not follow that he--under his own power-- is capable of taking said opponent down. That's the point of my post(s).

I didn't go point by point with your post because I didn't see the need to. I still don't. Each of your points save the last stem from the same (flawed) assumption: that Tyrant was strong enough to take on Galactus by himself. My counter is that he wasn't, as the writer also went out of his way to show. Otherwise, Tyrant wouldn't have had to absorb Galactus's energy blast and redirect it. Otherwise Tyrant wouldn't have had to use his technopathy to turn Big G's tech against him. Otherwise, Tyrant wouldn't have had to siphon Big G's own energy from him mid-battle. He was a threat to Galactus given the nature of his powers, not because he possessed sufficient raw power to rival or surpass the levels he operated at prior to Galactus taking a great deal of them away.

Also, since we're talking about "skipping points," I'll point out that you still haven't argued with mine:



Please advise.

KuRuPT Thanosi
So then, it makes logica sense using your theory to address the following....

1. Your theory is that Big G would back down from a fight and LET HIM TAKE HIS HERALD.. from a being weaker than he previously beat? That makes logical sense to you? You know it doesn't why try and act like it does. What make sense is what the writer had Tyrant saying.. he had gained his power back and could now challenge Big G.

2. Why would Tyrant come out of hiding when he's weaker than before when he orginally lost.. That makes sense to you? No that is illogical. You stay in hiding for hundreds of thousands of years because YOU'RE GAINING BACK YOUR POWER and CAN NOW CHALLENGE your foe. You don't finally come out of hiding when you're still weaker than when you first lost... Does logic allude you?

3. Why would Big g prep and feed right before a fight when he's never done so against Agamotto, Mephisto in his realm, In Betweener, Ego etc etc... Why would he prep against an opponent that was weaker than when he first beat him? Answer he wouldn't... you would only do so if you felt like he was again a legit threat who had gained back his power and was more experienced with said power.

4. Why would surfer who felt both of their powers say... he must hurry up and get there before they both destroy eachother.. If big g was clearly more powerful than a weaker than orginal tyrant... why would the writer have Surfer say that? He wouldn't.

All the four points above you can't address because they make no logical sense in your theory. They clearly side with my theory and there is no way around that.. You know it and I know it. All those facts side with my theory not yours. To make those fit into yours is clearly illogical.

Now to answer your question.. that is very easy... First Thanos was amped... amped more than when Thanos blasted Big G hundreds of feet across a moon. Second, Tyrant wasn't really trying which is evidence by the fact that he states so on panel.. Once he made it clear he was about to get serious and stop trying to treat Thanos as he had the other heralds... What did Thanos say and do.. he left IMMEDIATLY and confirmed Tyrant would kill him if he stayed. That was very easy wasn't it?

Now please explain how the above facts fit into your theory MORE than mine please

zopzop
This is why "Respect Threads" exist people :

1) "DP" Tyrant was weaker than the Tyrant Galactus fought eons ago :
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2486/silversurferv308234.th.jpg

There goes that theory. That was from the very same issue he punked Galactus' ass and the Surfer even called Galactus on it.

2) Galactus feared Tryant and even the Surfer could sense it :
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/418/silversurferv3109p06.th.jpg

"My power cosmic senses his distress, his pain, and most unlike him, something akin to fear"

3) Thanos vs Tyrant. You realize that the ENTIRE Cosmic Powers mini series was Thanos with prep going up against Tyrant right? If you don't believe me go pick up the issues yourselves.
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1849/cosmicpowers01thanospag.th.jpg http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1665/cosmicpowers02terraxpag.th.jpg http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1665/cosmicpowers02terraxpag.th.jpg

The Orbs are both his greatest asset and his greatest vulenerability should they be used against him.

4) A fed and prepped Galactus got destroyed by Tyrant
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/579/silversurferv3106p08.th.jpg

He even bragged he hasn't felt that powerful in ages...............AND STILL LOST.

Enough of the BS.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Zop the scan you posted backs up my EXACT claim.. He says he's spent EONS REGAINING his powers back.. then says.. NOW AT THE HEIGHT OF MY POWERS... Which could mean he's even stronger than he was the first time they met.. where on earth do you get from that that he's weaker than before?

zopzop
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Zop the scan you posted backs up my EXACT claim.. He says he's spent EONS REGAINING his powers back.. then says.. NOW AT THE HEIGHT OF MY POWERS... Which could mean he's even stronger than he was the first time they met.. where on earth do you get from that that he's weaker than before?

I know, I'm posting it to get rid of that BS "Theory" that the Tyrant that faced off vs Galactus since his return was WEAKER than the Tryant Galactus beat eons ago.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Right but look at what you posted....

zopzop
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Right but look at what you posted....

I should have stated it more clearly.
""DP" Tyrant was weaker than the Tyrant Galactus fought eons ago :"
"There goes that theory."

celestialdemon
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now to answer your question.. that is very easy... First Thanos was amped... amped more than when Thanos blasted Big G hundreds of feet across a moon. Second, Tyrant wasn't really trying which is evidence by the fact that he states so on panel.. Once he made it clear he was about to get serious and stop trying to treat Thanos as he had the other heralds... What did Thanos say and do.. he left IMMEDIATLY and confirmed Tyrant would kill him if he stayed. That was very easy wasn't it?


Amped more than when he blasted Galactus? How do you know that? We have no idea how much power was in that orb or to what extend Thanos was using it. Tyrant certainly didn't acknowlege it when referring to Thanos' power.

Tyrant never states that he wasn't trying or taking it easy on Thanos. In fact, he gets pissed that Thanos is challenging him in the first place. And he didn't state he was about to get serious. He was surprised that Thanos was still alive and said he would fix that. Thanos said given the opportunity he would but further struggle was pointless, because he had withstood Tyrant's power and stole the orb.

golem370
Even the fight with the herald level beings was pretty much one on one, they may have done better in a all out attack. Like I said Morg and Terrax wasn't even fighting him with the others.

Harbinger
Sorry. Had work and just got back home.

My last post on this one, though.

From KT's post's (as I can't see zopzop's), I'll assume he did indeed post the scan where Tyrant's telling Big G that he's a the height of his powers. I've seen it before; I've read the issues. Him boasting to Galactus doesn't do a whole lot for me given their battle and the nature of it. Tyrant emerged from hiding because:

- He'd recovered sufficient energy to challenge Big G
- He knew his powers gave him an advantage, as evidenced by the fact that he used Galactus's own tech against him (using the BSE to drain Big G's energy while simultaneously augmenting his own)

I'm not disputing that Tyrant wasn't strong, only that he had become Galactus-level, which, again, doesn't make sense given the nature of his battle with Galactus, nor his fight with an ambiguously amped Thanos. He was certainly strong enough to pose some sort of threat to Big G, since he ran through several herald levelers without breaking a sweat. He wouldn't have to be at Galactus-level to pose that sort of threat, though (IE, Sphinx + 1 Ka Stone + Nova Force wasn't as strong as Big G, though Galactus took him seriously enough to fight and defeat him).

In the end, though, Tyrant essentially using a plot device (the BSE used to drain Galactus of his power) to overpower Big G doesn't really translate to "BUH GAWD, HE MUST BE AS STRONG AS GALACTUS!!!" And your explanation of his fight with Thanos isn't really that convincing, since it makes such a huge assumption (that one power orb was > Thanos' upgrade that gave his sufficient power to blast Galactus across a moon and knock off his helmet). And as CD stated above, Thanos left because he'd accomplished his mission, which was to steal Tyrant's orb. Him continuing to fight wouldn't have made much sense to that end, since Tyrant still had the upper hand in their confrontation (something that I never disputed). That Thanos was amped is undeniable; how much he was amped is dubious. Given that Thanos managed to hold his own, though, I can't really buy the "Depowered Tyrant > Galactus" argument.

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