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Here's to you, TJ.

Revan coaches Kreia.

Oh gee, I wonder who's going to win.

Why doesn't Shaak Ti get a coach?

OMFG Shaak Ti because she's a strong PT Jedi who have demonstrated abilities to defeat unblockable Force Drain!

Originally posted by Q99
Why doesn't Shaak Ti get a coach?

I assume she's worth three Jedi Masters and then some.

She can Force dodge Kreia's Drain.

Ok Slash I'll lead. Traya was able to kill close to a dozen Sith assassins at once without even looking at them simply by walking past them. I'll remind you that these Sith assassins possessed a technique that allowed them to scale to match the strength in the Force of those around them. She did so despite the fact that they were invisible at the time.

She also killed 3 Jedi Council Members at the same time while standing in the middle of a Jedi Temple. She was able to telepathically converse with someone on the other side of the galaxy and was able to hide herself from that person as well has half the crew of the Ebon Hawk.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll remind you that these Sith assassins possessed a technique that allowed them to scale to match the strength in the Force of those around them.

wut

What wut? They do.

Yet, they aren't truly "matching" the strength of said character. Plus it makes no damn sense... How the hell are the growing stronger by feeding off the Exile while Nihilus grew weaker?

KotOR 2... Ugh.

The Exile is criminally underrated? I assume on pure skill and Force Knowledge. This is the woman who can learn an entire lightsaber form just by fighting someone.

Originally posted by ares834
KotOR 2... Ugh.

I used to think Avellone was a good writer, too.

He is. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile is criminally underrated? I assume on pure skill and Force Knowledge. This is the woman who can learn an entire lightsaber form just by fighting someone.

With numbers on their side and the ability to become stronger based on their opponent's strength in the Force, they shouldn't be defeated.

One person of great skill can defeat dozens of less skilled but similarly capable and powerful people in video games.

Originally posted by Nephthys
One person of great skill can defeat dozens of less skilled but similarly capable and powerful people in video games.

Because of gameplay mechanics, which Avellone attempted to legitimize in canon. A dozen trained and skilled opponents of equal strength in the Force should not be bested by a single individual.

Perhaps she did not engage dozens of them at once. In fact I can't think of a single occurence when you're forced to do this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps she did not engage dozens of them at once. In fact I can't think of a single occurence when you're forced to do this.



mmm

Maybe she used an unblockable technique.

hmm, if they were all overpowered at once, despite being near her level, here level couldn't have been all that high... Especially since she doesn't use the unblockable move when fighting Sion, and loses her arm as a result. If it is "unblockable" she had two situations where she should have used it, and did not. (When attacked by Sion, and when overthrown by N. and Sion)

Originally posted by truejedi
hmm, if they were all overpowered at once, despite being near her level, here level couldn't have been all that high... Especially since she doesn't use the unblockable move when fighting Sion, and loses her arm as a result. If it is "unblockable" she had two situations where she should have used it, and did not. (When attacked by Sion, and when overthrown by N. and Sion)

Well played.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmm, if they were all overpowered at once, despite being near her level, here level couldn't have been all that high... Especially since she doesn't use the unblockable move when fighting Sion, and loses her arm as a result. If it is "unblockable" she had two situations where she should have used it, and did not. (When attacked by Sion, and when overthrown by N. and Sion)

No really. Could she use the technique at that point? I remind you that as of Paragus Kreia has only recently recovered from death! And sure, use the technique on Nihilus, that'll go well.

so she can't always use whatever drain she uses? how is that even admissable in a vs. forum then?

We use strongest versions. Unless someone wants to make a Paragus Kreia match taht is.

So... Luke's ability to out TK the star at the center of the galaxy doesnt' automatically end every single match because....?

I thought it did. Do we have a recent Luke incarnation actually losing in one of these fights?

Palpatine on his deathbed was able to manhandle multiple Jedi during the events of Empire's End, I don't see why Kreia would be any different. As you have asserted elsewhere, it is a result of technique, not raw strength in the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought it did. Do we have a recent Luke incarnation actually losing in one of these fights?

I don't remember you arguing that he would utterly overwhelm the competition? And I also believe you try to pass N.'s little fleet moving trick off as superior? amirite? (despite it being nowhere near as impressive as a giant star at the center of the galaxy...)

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Palpatine on his deathbed was able to manhandle multiple Jedi during the events of Empire's End, I don't see why Kreia would be any different. As you have asserted elsewhere, it is a result of technique, not raw strength in the Force.

Palpatine wasn't actually dead for a number of days though now was he. Its obvious that Kreia isn't nearly as powerful at the start of the game as she was at the end. Hell, could she even properly use teh Force before meeting the Exile? I mean she was cut off from it. So logically she'd regain it gradually over the game in much teh same way as the Exile.

Originally posted by truejedi
I don't remember you arguing that he would utterly overwhelm the competition? And I also believe you try to pass N.'s little fleet moving trick off as superior? amirite? (despite it being nowhere near as impressive as a giant star at the center of the galaxy...)

I'm iffy on the matter. Skywalkers power fluctuates between books as it is.

No, I dn't believe I ever have.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine wasn't actually dead for a number of days though now was he. Its obvious that Kreia isn't nearly as powerful at the start of the game as she was at the end.

I'm not seeing the distinction here. Kreia was alive when the technique would have benefited her and you asserted that the drain is a product of technique, not raw power. I don't see why she'd need to regain her full potency to utilize it.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
you asserted that the drain is a product of technique, not raw power.

No I didn't.

and if IS a matter of power, then there is no reason to think that the competition, when more powerful, wouldn't be able to block it.

(n, and what do you mean you have never called N's tk's feat the greatest ever? do you really want me to go looking for that post from you?)

If you want to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I didn't.



Here you discredit the notion that the technique succeeded through raw strength.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Here you discredit the notion that the technique succeeded through raw strength.

You misinterpret me. I also note that Nihilus was able to use the technique on a scale that completely dwarfs Traya's. So logically something must be at work to explain the vast difference in effects. Its unlikely that this was becase he was more skilled with the technique than her given that she was his master in the technique.

And just because I discredit its success being a matter of raw power does not mean that I think any Sith could perform it.

Why are we even discussing this again?

I don't follow; by your reckoning, no student can ever surpass his teacher when we know that isn't the case. Indeed, it seems that this is exactly what happened:

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.



Chris Avellone seems to think that "the Sith Lords of old" would have no problem using the technique if not for their reluctance to "sublimate their identities."

That link doesn't lead anywhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That link doesn't lead anywhere.

Fvck, hang on.

Once moar, with feeling.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I don't follow; by your reckoning, no student can ever surpass his teacher when we know that isn't the case. Indeed, it seems that this is exactly what happened:

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.



Chris Avellone seems to think that "the Sith Lords of old" would have no problem using the technique if not for their reluctance to "sublimate their identities."

That quote doesn't show him being more skilled with the technique than her. Especially when she's the one enabling him to get there.

Sith 'Lords' being the key word.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That quote doesn't show him being more skilled with the technique than her. Especially when she's the one enabling him to get there.

Again, your logic is inherently flawed. So because a teacher "enables" a student "to get there," the teacher is always more skilled? That's a dangerously flawedwrong assumption.



We've seen some pretty substandard Sith Lords, though, littered throughout canon.

All of this is to say that it is clearly a product of technique and Sith education, not raw power.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Again, your logic is inherently flawed. So because a teacher "enables" a student "to get there," the teacher is always more skilled? That's a dangerously flawedwrong assumption.



We've seen some pretty substandard Sith Lords, though, littered throughout canon.

All of this is to say that it is clearly a product of technique and Sith education, not raw power.

If she could get him to that level then why could she herself not reach it? The only explanation I can see is that he's more powerful than her.

And I would still put them above a half-dead Kriea only barely starting to recover her force abilities.

Well clearly.

So whats exactly is your point again? That she could have used the technique against Sion, only because, although it does clearly not require raw power to actually use, it clearly does in fact require raw power to have an affect on someone, so clearly she knew she wouldn't be able to effectively use it against him and so clearly chose not to?

Hmmmmm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If she could get him to that level then why could she herself not reach it? The only explanation I can see is that he's more powerful than her.

Do you believe Bastila to be more powerful than Revan simply because she was more advanced in a specific technique than he?



But it doesn't matter, does it? Kreia clearly had control over her mental faculties and Force powers, but didn't utilize the technique on Sion either on Peragus or earlier at the Trayus Academy.



My point is that clearly there are limitations to the technique, which is a product of education, not midichlorian count.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Do you believe Bastila to be more powerful than Revan simply because she was more advanced in a specific technique than he?

Revan wasn't the person who actually taught her that technique now was he?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
But it doesn't matter, does it? Kreia clearly had control over her mental faculties and Force powers, but didn't utilize the technique on Sion either on Peragus or earlier at the Trayus Academy.


Had control over her Force abilities? To what extent? I've already explained that she was not at her best at the time. If you want an explanation for why she didn't use the technique then thats the best you're getting.

At Trayus Academy? You mean when Lord 'Wound in the Force' Nihilus was standing right next to him?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
My point is that clearly there are limitations to the technique, which is a product of education, not midichlorian count.

Theres no evidence that its one way of the other. Raw power enables a Sith to use techniques like Sith Lightning to greater and greater effect, as does knowledge. I've seen nothing from you that idicates that its exclusive in this case.

facepalm

We'll just agree to disagree, then.

Fine by me Alexian.

So, you're saying that because she's weaker on Korriban and Paragus that she couldn't use the Force Drain, while on Dantooine she was finally powerful enough to use it.

How does it not rely on how much Power the Force user has then?

Because it is clearly an advanced Sith technique that is difficult to do.

I'm sure it is difficult. In what way is it difficult to do, oh yes, you need to have a certain amount of Power to perform it.

Soooo, it DOES rely on how much Power the Force user has.

To a point. Obviously it scales with regards to overall power and technique. From the fodder Sith to Kreia to Nihilus' planet-wide destruction.

Hell, I'd even say it has less to do with power than it does about skill, seeing as the Exile does it completely instinctively without meaning to.

Its faulty to assume that therefore one stronger than the wielder can resist it though. The problem is that there is apparantly no defense against it. How do you defend against someone forcing a force bond on you and then using it to suck you dry?

Shaak Ti should take this. Jedi of the PT are generally stronger than Jedi of the Old Republic. Since Kreia was a Jedi master when she left the order, she has status comparable to Shaak. Therefore, Shaak Ti wins because of her time period advantage.

I don't think you're Nebaris.

Revan gets stomped.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To a point. Obviously it scales with regards to overall power and technique. From the fodder Sith to Kreia to Nihilus' planet-wide destruction.

Hell, I'd even say it has less to do with power than it does about skill, seeing as the Exile does it completely instinctively without meaning to.

The Exile uses the exact same technique as Kreia and Nihilus now?



You keep saying there is no defense against it, while we've only seen her use it on three Jedi Masters of who we have no idea off how powerful they really are. It's like saying that if we had never seen Yoda or Starkiller block Force Lightning with their hands we'd say there is (without counting the outside utility Lightsaber) NO DEFENSE against it.

We haven't seen her use that technique on anyone noteworthy in terms of power, so how do we know that an actual powerful character wouldn't be able to stop it? And don't even dare to bring Nihilus in this again, because that's like saying "Oh well because Sidious can practically bend Mace his lightsaber back with FL, everyone could do that because it's the same technique.



That's what Kreia does? Force a Force bond on those Jedi Masters? Can you give me the quote of this?

Originally posted by NTJack0
Revan gets stomped.

NEVER. BLASPHEMY. LIES!!!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
NEVER. BLASPHEMY. LIES!!! Revan i fodder before Shaak Ti and her coach Jar Jar.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
She doesn't use the exact same Force Drain the way Nihilus and Kreia use it, like the quote says by making the Force Bond the Exile leeches the LIFE from others and their WILL.

That's not what Nihilus and Kreia do, they do not make Force Bonds.

PePWLwj8McQ&feature=channel_video_title

2.30 onwards.

'It is a way that they fill the hollow places where the Force used to be.' As the Jedi Masters reveal to you, this is something that the Exile does constantly. Every Single Time she kills someone.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-76.JPG

It is simply that she does not have conscious control over it teh way Kreia or Nihilus do. It is the same technique, but just as there are advanced versions of the same basic technique in other cases (Shock, Lightning, Storm) so too are there of this one. The basic use the Sith assassins are capable of allows them to force bonds on others and leech power from them. The advanced version of this is the Exile, who can leech even more, draining them dry upon death and unconsciously dominate others. The most advanced form is Nihilus', wherein he can leech power from entire planets (which is what the Sith were doing in Dxun fyi), use the link to force death and utterly drain them of the Force and consciously dominate all those around him. Remember the slaves upon his ship? Tobin? Dark reflections of the Exiles own companions.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
An entire planet of unknowns, Sidious did that as well.

No, he didn't.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We've not seen Kreia use the attack on more than 3 people who haven't proven much in terms of Force ability. Therefore the connection between "those three can't block it" and "so no one can" is illogical. I'm not saying it can 100% definitely be blocked, but neither should you say that it can be 100% definitely not be blocked.

Tell me how it can be blocked and I will conceed that point. There is ample evidence that it cannot.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Sidious hit Yoda with Force Lightning, he wasn't out of breath, yet we've seen Yoda block it afterwards. Mhm?

Yoda was surprised. The trio were not. She'd already attacked them once with the Force and they were on guard and ready for battle. Plus, you know, they have precognition. For her to have surprised them she'd need to have blocked or overwhelmed all of their senses. Either way she's overpowering them.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Where did she say that her Force Drain is impossible to block? If you're talking about the Kreia's Fall cutscene, she is talking about being cut off the Force and it didn't feature the Pinkish lightning at all. I'm afraid you may have things confused.



The drain.......... does cut people off from the Force.



Plus:

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Thank you Gideon.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
After reading through that I'm actually starting to wonder if Kreia actually uses the same Force Drain Nihilus uses... She apparently cut them off the Force, a technique that they could also use and many others as well.

Again, that is what the drain does.

Oh, and that the drain isn't noticable in any case other than the Jedi Masters is further proof of their power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Hmmm... So it isn't always fatal. Nor does it permanently remove the user from the force.

Intresting.

mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, and that the drain isn't noticable in any case other than the Jedi Masters is further proof of their power.



When Nihilus attempts to drain the Exile we see the same thing despite the fact he isn't draining anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
PePWLwj8McQ&feature=channel_video_title

2.30 onwards.

Not Canon.



Ehm yes, all of this is exactly what he did on Byss.



Ample evidence? Like?

Also, like I said in the other thread, I can't prove it can be blocked just as much as you can't prove it can't.



The precognition stuff is bs, didn't do a lot of good for Yoda or Sidious as I said. The trio were also surprised, they didn't know she was able to do that and they were obviously preparing for a duel, hence the Lightsabers. They weren't expecting her to cut them off the Force.



So what they do is cut people off the Force? Well, that's not unique at all, many Force users can perform the technique then.

Originally posted by ares834
Hmmm... So it isn't always fatal. Nor does it permanently remove the user from the force.

Intresting.

mmm

Actually, there have been many who survived being cut off the Force. The Exile cut herself off, survived. Kreia was cut off, survived. Kyle Katarn cut himself off, survived. Ben Skywalker was cut off, survived. Ulic Qel-Droma was cut off, survived.

Yes, but according to that quote Kreia wasn't simply cut off from the force but drained.

Exactly. They were not merely cut off from it, but completely drained.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

So then how the hell did Kreia survive it? That's really got me scrathching my head.

The technique they use is not something that can be taught like math can. It is instictive. Only someone who has been cut off from the Force can learn it.

I guess.

Originally posted by ares834
When Nihilus attempts to drain the Exile we see the same thing despite the fact he isn't draining anything.

Because he's consciously using the technique. Plus, as I said, they're variations of the same technique.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The technique they use is not something that can be taught like math can. It is instictive. Only someone who has been cut off from the Force can learn it.

I guess.

Well Malak appears to use it as does some Anazati dark jedi killed by Vos. Also weren't the Sith Assassins taught a variant of it? But yeah, it's instinctive and IIRC you have to expirence it to use it, I just doubt that you have to be cut from the force to be able to use it.



So if you use it consciously it doesn't kill them? Meh... I'm inclined to think he just used the "wall of light" (wall of darkness?) technique. Sure the two abilties may be releated but there are some stark differnces between the two.

Originally posted by ares834
Well Malak appears to use it as does some Anazati dark jedi killed by Vos. Also weren't the Sith Assassins taught a variant of it? But yeah, it's instinctive and IIRC you have to expirence it to use it, I just doubt that you have to be cut from the force to be able to use it.



So if you use it consciously it doesn't kill them? Meh... I'm inclined to think he just used the "wall of light" (wall of darkness?) technique. Sure the two abilties may be releated but there are some stark differnces between the two.

He does? Malak... and Vos? Wha? Yeah, I believe the assassins were.

I dunno. Not every nuance of the technique is fully explored.

No, obviously it can kill them. Kreia killed the Jedi Masters. What I meant with bringing it up was that Every time the Exile unconsciously drains someone when she kills him there no noticable indication of it except when she does it to the Masters, indicating to me that they have substantially more Force power to drain that the other enemies you face.

Originally posted by Nephthys
**** you.

Sorry man, I don't swing that way.



They're so vague about what they're always talking about, it's like everything they talk about is the same thing to you: Hunger happens instinctively, is controlled, cutting off the Force, draining life, draining the Force, something you have to experience, at some point it only applies to Force Sensitives, another it affects everyone, it makes you stronger, it doesn't change you, it can be taught, it can't be taught, makes Force Bonds, severs Force Bonds, you have to feel the Force to do it, you don't have to feel the Force, it has pinkish lightning, it isn't visible,...

Holy cluster****. It's all the SAME thing?



Yes it is, but this again strays from the subject at hand.



You didn't answer my "Ample evidence? Like?"



This just proves how dumb the Jedi Masters are, just standing there, with their lightsabers ready, instead of using the technique themselves like they did on the Exile. The scene has just become a huge -facepalm- scene.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He does? Malak...

I think he means how Malak DRAINED the FORCE from the captives on the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Sorry man, I don't swing that way.

It just annoys me when people ignore half the games expostion when theres one 'canon' path through it. As if the other stuff in it is suddenly completely void.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
They're so vague about what they're always talking about, it's like everything they talk about is the same thing to you: Hunger happens instinctively, is controlled, cutting off the Force, draining life, draining the Force, something you have to experience, at some point it only applies to Force Sensitives, another it affects everyone, it makes you stronger, it doesn't change you, it can be taught, it can't be taught, makes Force Bonds, severs Force Bonds, you have to feel the Force to do it, you don't have to feel the Force, it has pinkish lightning, it isn't visible,...

Holy cluster****. It's all the SAME thing?

Yes.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yes it is, but this again strays from the subject at hand.

Did Palpatine 'drain' the planet of the Force so utterly that it became an absense in it? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You didn't answer my "Ample evidence? Like?"

Do you wnat me to post teh entire contents of the threads? Because I'm not sure how you missed the evidence I gave in them.

It has been called an unblockable technique and has been demonstrated as such on two seperate occasions. Two occasions wherein it is highly unlikely the character could have succeeded had not the attack been unblockable. Furthermore, no-one has presented an actual method of blocking. Do you think a standard Force Barrier will do? Force deflection? Given the nature of the attack I'm inclined to say tat the only ways would be to Quey'Tek concealment techniques or other ways of concealing ones connection to the Force. Or be The Exile.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This just proves how dumb the Jedi Masters are, just standing there, with their lightsabers ready, instead of using the technique themselves like they did on the Exile. The scene has just become a huge -facepalm- scene.

What? They couldn't use the technique.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I think he means how Malak DRAINED the FORCE from the captives on the Star Forge.

Yeah, but why's Vos there? Also haha, very funny.

Kreia wins

/thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but why's Vos there? Also haha, very funny.

Because Vos is everywhere.



Likely the outcome.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but why's Vos there? Also haha, very funny.

Originally posted by ares834
as does some Anazati dark jedi killed by Vos.

Are you talking about the Vos & Volfe Karkko story?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kreia wins

/thread.

Pretty much this.

who is going win????

I is going win. And then I'm going out.