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classic juggernaut at the height of his power.
like when eternity and oblivion failed to bypass his enchantment when they tried to kill him



thanos
void sentry
molecule man
current hulk
king thor
sandman
demon wolverine
serpent

Oblivion couldn't, what chance do these bitches stand?

Juggernaut is flatly stated to be unkillable.

The Gamma-Father can kill him.

The Gamma Father is no more, he was a fabrication.

I feel cheated.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The Gamma Father is no more, he was a fabrication.

I feel cheated. He's still alive and well in carver's mind!

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The Gamma Father is no more, he was a fabrication.

I feel cheated.

Why? Go back to the thread where all of the talk abound Hulk took place and readead the scans that was presented. Everything that was said before still took place.

Originally posted by Harbinger
He's still alive and well in carver's mind!

No, he is still alive "period".

Originally posted by Harbinger
He's still alive and well in carver's mind!
Lol you think carver has a mind.

Originally posted by carver9
Why? Go back to the thread where all of the talk abound Hulk took place and readead the scans that was presented. Everything that was said before still took place.

Dude...just stop.

Time out was called.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
classic juggernaut at the height of his power.
like when eternity and oblivion failed to bypass his enchantment when they tried to kill him



thanos
void sentry
molecule man
current hulk
king thor
sandman
demon wolverine
serpent

The event with Eternity and Oblivion failing to kill Classic Juggs is representative of comicbook inconsistency at its best; Eternity and Oblivion are major Abstracts, and so I have a hard time believing that they couldnt kill Cytorrak directly...let alone his avatar.

That event stinks of PIS; Thor could find a way to get around the enchantment, but Eternity and Oblivion could not!? Bulls**t...

Anyway, from that list, I believe that Molecule Man, King Thor, and the Serpent should be capable of killing Classic Juggs...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The event with Eternity and Oblivion failing to kill Classic Juggs is representative of comicbook inconsistency at its best; Eternity and Oblivion are major Abstracts, and so I have a hard time believing that they couldnt kill Cytorrak directly...let alone his avatar.

That event stinks of PIS; Thor could find a way to get around the enchantment, but Eternity and Oblivion could not!? Bulls**t...

Anyway, from that list, I believe that Molecule Man, King Thor, and the Serpent should be capable of killing Classic Juggs... maybe cyttorak is more powerful than them? heck oblivion let juggernat go inreturn for some of that power...

Cytorrak is an Elder God; Eternity and Oblivion are major abstracts...

Yeah, some writters just may have portrayed Cytorrak as being greater than these two, but in my honest opinion, that is PIS'y (and writers write PIS all the time)...

Major Abstracts should trump Elder Gods without effort...let alone an Elder Gods avatar.

Writers write bullshit all the time, Eternity and Oblivion are clearly meant to be above the likes of Cytorrak (and Juggs, of course). PIS aside..

What versions of these characters are we talking?

What MM?
What Sandman (there's a ton of characters named Sandman)

Thanos can shut off his brain.

Originally posted by Cogito
Writers write bullshit all the time, Eternity and Oblivion are clearly meant to be above the likes of Cytorrak

When?

Seriously. When?

Ancient One has gone toe to toe with Eternity, and he is below Cyttorak.

Classic Strange has gone toe to toe with Living Tribunal, yet he is absolutely helpless before Cyttorak.


Cyttorak is an ominous entity, yet we know a large host of very powerful people call upon and are wary of his power.

Juggernaut was meant to be unkillable period, that was/is his outright purpose as a character. This is the same guy who with some time in the Crimson Cosmos was able to gain enough magical abilities to fight evenly with Nightmare in his realm. The classic Nightmare that had entrapped Eternity and that Strange could not defeat. So just with some magical abilities, Classic Juggernaut was someone who propelled himself into a legit cosmic level entity.

And its all because of Cyttorak.

When did Eternity and Oblivion try, and fail, to kill Juggernaut?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
When?

Seriously. When?

When their characters (ideas, abstracts) were defined.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Classic Strange has gone toe to toe with Living Tribunal, yet he is absolutely helpless before Cyttorak.

You trying to say Cytorrak is above LT? Come on now, this is textbook definition of PIS.

Originally posted by Galan007
When did Eternity and Oblivion try, and fail, to kill Juggernaut?
I'm just rolling with it, I don't actually know either.

Don't really read much classic Marvel

Originally posted by Cogito
When their characters (ideas, abstracts) were defined.

Non-commital answer. Cyttorak was never given a limit.

And his most famous avatar, Cain, was a bonafide cosmic entity at the height of his powers back in the classic days. And that was just with some magic learned from his time in the Crimson Cosmos.




Actually, why not? They are at least comparable. We know Cyttorak is unconcerned with matters that involve the entire multiverse, as we saw during Infinity War. There is only one Cyttorak, just as there is only one LT. LT himself has invoked spells from Raggador, a 'member' of the octassence (of which Cyttorak is the most powerful) such as during his fight with Strange.

Did not Thor "shut" down his enchantment for some time? I think that everyone Skyfather+ should be able to do the same, or beings on Onslaught level. Or beins strong enough like current Hulk .

^ Yes.

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/360/54476547.th.jpg

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Actually, why not?

Stopped reading.

Your concession is accepted.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Actually, why not? They are at least comparable. When Cyttorak shuts down the infinity gauntlet with a gesture, let me know. ermm

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Your concession is accepted.

Alright Quan.

Originally posted by Galan007
When Cyttorak shuts down the infinity gauntlet with a gesture, let me know. ermm

The Infinity Gauntlet isn't even a concern to the Crimson Cosmos.

I can't tell if this insane amount of bias/fanboy-ism is real or fake..?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
like when eternity and oblivion failed to bypass his enchantment when they tried to kill him

Issue number(s)?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Issue number(s)?


Something to the effect of what he claims my have happened but I would check it out myself I have seen him claim Colossus tanked a repulsar blast from Iron-man in an issue where they never even fought.

Originally posted by CosmicComet

Ancient One has gone toe to toe with Eternity, and he is below Cyttorak.

Classic Strange has gone toe to toe with Living Tribunal, yet he is absolutely helpless before Cyttorak.


Thank you! People seem to forget these. Oh and don't forget Strange owned the Inbetweener who was amped by the LT presence. And the IB is an abstract being.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Issue number(s)?
Uncanny X-Men #32-33, Dr. Strange #182 and concludes in Amazing Adventures #16. The story is also retold in Incredible Hulk #172.

Eternity never tried to kill Juggernaut and "Oblivion" if you would even call him that was actually killing Juggernaut until he gave up his mystical powers.

That event with Juggernaut in Oblivion's realm and Oblivion being unable to kill him was already retconned anyway. It got revised in X-Men Legacy #219 so that Juggernaut actually died in Oblivion's realm before Oblivion spit him back out.

Anyone above skyfather level could easily kill Juggernaut if it wanted to.

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/1918857-x_men_legacy_219__zone_megan__pg11_super.jpg

Yeah, I figured the thread starter was sorely mistaken.

either way oblivion wanted juggernauts powers before he let him go, so it would be false to think he could produce that echantment on his own

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Uncanny X-Men #32-33, Dr. Strange #182 and concludes in Amazing Adventures #16. The story is also retold in Incredible Hulk #172.

Eternity never tried to kill Juggernaut and "Oblivion" if you would even call him that was actually killing Juggernaut until he gave up his mystical powers.

I know the issue numbers, read the story a while back ago, I just want to know if he does or at least if he read the story.

I'll re-read the arc later. Hopefully I still have them on my PC. Tracking down those type of story arcs a real b*tch.

^ Thor negated Juggernaut's enchantment entirely. Thor.

There are a laundry list of characters who'd be able to do the same.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Thor negated Juggernaut's enchantment entirely. Thor.

There are a laundry list of characters who'd be able to do the same. No he didn't.

^ He negated the only thing that made classic Juggernaut impressive -- his force-field. He then proceeded to physically wreck Juggy until his 'cone of mystical negation' wore off.

Again: there are several characters who could reproduce that.

Classic Juggs had invulnerability w/o his force field.

Except the times he didn't.

Which leaves the times that he did.

Either way, Mjolnir > Force Field, Thor > Juggernaut. Dealwithit.

Originally posted by Mindset
Classic Juggs had invulnerability w/o his force field. Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yes.

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/360/54476547.th.jpg "You might'a taken away my invulnerability..."

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Either way, Mjolnir > Force Field, Thor > Juggernaut. Dealwithit. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Galan007
"You might'a taken away my invulnerability..." That'd be great if that were the only comic Juggs appeared it.

Originally posted by Galan007
"You might'a taken away my invulnerability..."
Originally posted by Mindset
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Mindset
That'd be great if that were the only comic Juggs appeared it.

Originally posted by Mindset
That'd be great if that were the only comic Juggs appeared it. I'll take Juggernaut's word regarding what Thor did to his powerset, over yours.

That will be all. sneer

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The hate has made you loopy. Why'd you edit?

Originally posted by Mindset
Why'd you edit?
Because I can.

Originally posted by Mindset
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The hate has made you loopy.

hmmmmmmmmmm classic Adam Warlock with the Soul Gem can kill him

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
classic juggernaut at the height of his power.
like when eternity and oblivion failed to bypass his enchantment when they tried to kill him illyana rasputin easily

Wonder Woman could...



http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk109/DRDOOMSDAY-360/marvel%20universe/mighty%20thor/hulk/crossover%20battles/605812-551400_jla_023007_super_supe.jpghttp://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk109/DRDOOMSDAY-360/marvel%20universe/mighty%20thor/hulk/crossover%20battles/605813-551400_jla_023007_super_supe.jpghttp://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk109/DRDOOMSDAY-360/marvel%20universe/mighty%20thor/hulk/crossover%20battles/605814-551400_jla_023007_super_supe.jpghttp://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk109/DRDOOMSDAY-360/marvel%20universe/mighty%20thor/hulk/crossover%20battles/605815-551400_jla_023007_super_supe.jpg


vin

Originally posted by psycho gundam
illyana rasputin easily


only in limbo she could and even then i find it highly debatable unless we are talking about a different version of magik...although her soulsword should negate the enchantment

Originally posted by Sin I AM
only in limbo she could and even then i find it highly debatable unless we are talking about a different version of magik...although her soulsword should negate the enchantment i meant in terms of her simply going to human resources and getting cain marko fired. she doesn't have to fight him or be anywhere near him for that matter...well, when she takes the power for herself she can teleport to the powerless human and make paste out of him

Originally posted by Galan007
I'll take Juggernaut's word regarding what Thor did to his powerset, over yours.

That will be all. sneer

Thor also said that the Godblast was the same one that did all that other crap. You going to take his wording as well?

Also, he is durable without the force field. That part in the Thor comic was PIS, just like when the sniper KO'd Thor with nothing more than a bullet.

I'd say WWH was hitting harder than Thor was in that issue, yet Juggernaut, w/o a forcefield, was not down for the count in anyway.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Cytorrak is an Elder God; Eternity and Oblivion are major abstracts...

Yeah, some writters just may have portrayed Cytorrak as being greater than these two, but in my honest opinion, that is PIS'y (and writers write PIS all the time)...

Major Abstracts should trump Elder Gods without effort...let alone an Elder Gods avatar. According to some Marvel writer's interview Cytorrak is an abstract being.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Thor also said that the Godblast was the same one that did all that other crap. You going to take his wording as well?

Also, he is durable without the force field. That part in the Thor comic was PIS, just like when the sniper KO'd Thor with nothing more than a bullet.



Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I'd say WWH was hitting harder than Thor was in that issue, yet Juggernaut, w/o a forcefield, was not down for the count in anyway.

Thor used his advantages to repeatedly pound Juggernaut to the point he was probably one blow away from being put out.

If Hulk unloaded on Juggernaut similarly, I see no evidence in their fight to support the same wouldn't happen.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I figured the thread starter was sorely mistaken. Yeah but Oblivion couldn't kill Juggs directly but rather trapped him there for an eternity until he aged and died. I say PIS because it is well established that Juggs is immortal and doesn't age.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Thor also said that the Godblast was the same one that did all that other crap. You going to take his wording as well? Juggernaut said: "You might'a taken away my invulnerability..." Why should I take that statement + Thor's subsequent physical trouncing of Juggy, as anything but literal?

It's not PIS just because you don't like it.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Thor also said that the Godblast was the same one that did all that other crap. You going to take his wording as well?

Also, he is durable without the force field. That part in the Thor comic was PIS, just like when the sniper KO'd Thor with nothing more than a bullet.

I'd say WWH was hitting harder than Thor was in that issue, yet Juggernaut, w/o a forcefield, was not down for the count in anyway.
Wasn't Juggernaut in forward motion then? He can't be hurt when invoking his enchantment

WWH hit him once

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor used his advantages to repeatedly pound Juggernaut to the point he was probably one blow away from being put out.

If Hulk unloaded on Juggernaut similarly, I see no evidence in their fight to support the same wouldn't happen.

Because Juggernaut has a healing factor better than Hulk's, that could easily keep him in the fight.

Originally posted by Galan007
Juggernaut said: "You might'a taken away my invulnerability..." Why should I take that statement + Thor's subsequent physical trouncing of Juggy, as anything but literal?

It's not PIS just because you don't like it.

So because it was shown on panel and a short description of the bullet KOing Thor, that is not PIS?

Also, that writer in the narration had labeled Juggernaut a mutant, does that mean he is mutant?

why must this thread turn into a thor versus juggernaut thread

The point was that there are comics which imply that Juggs invulnerability lies in his force field and others which say that his invulnerability doesn't lie in his force field. Thus it is not fair to pick and choose which one suits you but rather go with the more consistent portrayal. And that is Juggs is invulnerable without the forcefield.

Originally posted by h1a8
The point was that there are comics which imply that Juggs invulnerability lies in his force field and others which say that his invulnerability doesn't lie in his force field. Thus it is not fair to pick and choose which one suits you but rather go with the more consistent portrayal. And that is Juggs is invulnerable without the forcefield.


Is it not common knowledge that Juggernaut is invulnerable sans shield? I mean how many times has he actually used the damn shield like 5 tops? We need to make another mythbuster thread ...only a troll would think otherwise

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
So because it was shown on panel and a short description of the bullet KOing Thor, that is not PIS? Red herring, much? Those analogies literally do not apply at all. ermm

Mjolnir negated Juggy's force-field/invulnerability momentarily. During Juggy's moment of weakness, Thor was able to trounce him physically. Again: it's not PIS just because you don't like it.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Because Juggernaut has a healing factor better than Hulk's, that could easily keep him in the fight.

Your defense is that he has a healing factor?

A healing factor doesn't stop someone from being knocked the f*ck out in comics if a writer wants it to happen. Never has.

I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious here.

Hulk's attacks were having an effect on Cain, that's the bottom line. Maybe if the writer had a long history of illustrating that 'healing factor=impossible to knock out' you'd have an argument but as it stands, the comic doesn't support your argument.

Anyone that can beat cyttorak in a fight should be able to kill juggernaut.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Your defense is that he has a healing factor?

A healing factor doesn't stop someone from being knocked the f*ck out in comics if a writer wants it to happen. Never has.
he got knocked the f*ck out in amazing spider-man #627

a knock out that seemingly lasted hours, and the swollen eye and bloody nose too

Onslaught nearly kill him by juggernaut own admission,
classic War Hulk who is powered by Francklin richards powers via nexus energy+celestial technology or Uni-powered Hulk aka Blue Hulk,Flash,Banner,Dr Doom,Red richards and all peoples who can travel in times............

Originally posted by Galan007
Red herring, much? Those analogies literally do not apply at all. ermm

Mjolnir negated Juggy's force-field/invulnerability momentarily. During Juggy's moment of weakness, Thor was able to trounce him physically. Again: it's not PIS just because you don't like it.

What about the people that didn't like Spider-Man beating down Firelord?

There are other moments in comics where Juggernaut tanks attacks w/o his forcefield, and does not suffer the same effects. WWH being one of them. Cain's character has also been explored more since then, more specifically his healing factor.

I'd wager that sense that writer thought he was a mutant, he did not grasp Juggernaut's character fully either.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Your defense is that he has a healing factor?

I put that forward that if he were not to have great durability w/o the force field, that should keep him in the game beyond 4 punches.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of Thor's remark that he could never truly beat Hulk in one of the recent FI books?

Originally posted by Devron87
Onslaught nearly kill him by juggernaut own admission,


Onslaught also said that Juggernaut can't be killed as long as he has a connection to the power.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yeah but Oblivion couldn't kill Juggs directly but rather trapped him there for an eternity until he aged and died. I say PIS because it is well established that Juggs is immortal and doesn't age.

Who says Oblivion even tried to kill him? Juggernaut just got trapped in Oblivion and couldn't get out. All Cain Marko's aging in the realm shows is that Cyttorak's enchantment didn't work in the realm of Oblivion, but once Juggernaut was spit back out the enchantment started working again and Cain was restored back to life.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
What about the people that didn't like Spider-Man beating down Firelord? The example you gave there certainly is PIS, but it's also much different than Thor using Mjolnir to momentarily negate Juggy's FF.

Originally posted by Galan007
The example you gave there certainly is PIS, but it's also much different than Thor using Mjolnir to momentarily negate Juggy's FF.

I'd also say if it wasn't PIS, he negated more than just the forcefield. After Thor "trounced" Cain, and his time limit was up, Cain's field came back, was not on the ropes any more and then some how trounced Thor with a huge column. It was as if he had not been beaten to within one punch of a KO.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I put that forward that if he were not to have great durability w/o the force field, that should keep him in the game beyond 4 punches.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of Thor's remark that he could never truly beat Hulk in one of the recent FI books?

I'm still not sure if your being serious. He had an excellent showing in a one shot during the 90's. Great, using that as an argument to claim he can't be knocked out is not only laughable but downright stupid based on what comics have printed over the years.

A pissed off Thor unloaded on Juggernaut repeatedly to the point he nearly put him out.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor7.jpg

Green Scar was capable of hurting Cain with his attacks.

If you substituted Green Scar for Thor, I don't see why you think their battle proves Hulk cannot put down Cain if put in a similar situation like Thor.

The evidence doesn't match your reasoning and so defeats your purpose for mentioning the scene originally. Not to mention that a weaker Hulk has floored Cain in the past.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I'd also say if it wasn't PIS, he negated more than just the forcefield. After Thor "trounced" Cain, and his time limit was up, Cain's field came back, was not on the ropes any more and then some how trounced Thor with a huge column. It was as if he had not been beaten to within one punch of a KO. Thor stated that he negated Juggy's enchantment. We know some portion of the enchantment must have still been intact, otherwise Cain would have reverted back to a normal human. However, we know Thor DID negate Cain's FF/invulnerability, and likely a good portion of his remaining strength/durability as well (hence Juggy nearly being KO'ed with a few punches.)

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm still not sure if your being serious. He had an excellent showing in a one shot during the 90's. Great, using that as an argument to claim he can't be knocked out is not only laughable but downright stupid based on what comics have printed over the years.

A pissed off Thor unloaded on Juggernaut repeatedly to the point he nearly put him out.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor7.jpg

Green Scar was capable of hurting Cain with his attacks.

If you substituted Green Scar for Thor, I don't see why you think their battle proves Hulk cannot put down Cain if put in a similar situation like Thor.

The evidence doesn't match your reasoning and so defeats your purpose for mentioning the scene originally. Not to mention that a weaker Hulk has rocked Cain in the past.

I think your reasoning is getting ridiculous. WWH was able to push Cain down but not hurt him. People still grunt even when they are not hurt. Prof. Hulk didn't really hurt Cain either. He caught him off guard with a punch to the stomach. It was cause and effect, he collapsed his lungs and the air in him only had one way to go, out.

A weakened Juggernaut was able to stand up to Thor and Mjolnir recently in Thunberbolts. He was bleeding badly yes, but he was not staggering like he did in that Thor issue.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thor stated that he negated Juggy's enchantment. We know some portion of the enchantment must have still been intact, otherwise Cain would have reverted back to a normal human. However, we know Thor DID negate Cain's FF/invulnerability, and likely a good portion of his remaining strength/durability as well (hence Juggy nearly being KO'ed with a few punches.)

Are you saying you think that it is a possibility that more than just his force field had been reduced/taken away?

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Are you saying you think that it is a possibility that more than just his force field had be reduced/taken away? ...Unless you think Juggy is THAT far below Thor from a physical standpoint, I'd say his strength/durability certainly took a hit from Thor's negation spell.

I don't care either way, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Unless you think Juggy is THAT far below Thor from a physical standpoint, I'd say his strength/durability certainly took a hit from Thor's negation spell.

Okay, I was confused on what you were trying to say. I was trying to make a point that just taking away his forcefield should not have allowed Thor to damage him like he did.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Okay, I was confused on what you were trying to say. I was trying to make a point that just taking away his forcefield should not have allowed Thor to damage him like he did. Imo, Thor's negation vortex took away the bulk of Juggy's enchantment, but not 'all' of it. Like I said before: Juggy would have reverted back to a normal human if the 'entire' enchantment had been removed.

His FF was completely negated, and his physical strength/durability took HUGE hits.

Seem a good start........

http://i55.tinypic.com/n5rhb6.png

http://i52.tinypic.com/9qe6i0.png

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, Thor's negation vortex took away the bulk of Juggy's enchantment, but not 'all' of it. Like I said before: Juggy would have reverted back to a normal human if the 'entire' enchantment had been removed.

His FF was completely negated, and his physical strength/durability took HUGE hits.

I can agree to what you are saying.

Originally posted by Galan007
His FF was completely negated, and his physical strength/durability took HUGE hits.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor5.jpg

"Ya might'a taken away my invulnerability, but I'm still as strong as ever!"

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg

"I am the living embodiment of raw power who is totally resistant to all forms of pain or injury! You can grow weak and be defeated! I can't!"

I'm sorry but that stance makes little sense to me. In particular because you think he took a huge hit in strength/durability.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I think your reasoning is getting ridiculous. WWH was able to push Cain down but not hurt him. People still grunt even when they are not hurt. Prof. Hulk didn't really hurt Cain either. He caught him off guard with a punch to the stomach. It was cause and effect, he collapsed his lungs and the air in him only had one way to go, out.

No, I think yours is.

Hulk could physically affect Cain:
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4847/hulkjuggernaut1.th.jpg

Merged Hulk obviously rocked Cain:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3442/hulkjuggernaut2.th.jpg

The air got knocked out of his lungs? Where was that stated as the reason for what happened?

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
A weakened Juggernaut was able to stand up to Thor and Mjolnir recently in Thunberbolts. He was bleeding badly yes, but he was not staggering like he did in that Thor issue.

How much time are you going to waste desperately searching for contradictions?

We saw Thor strike Juggernaut twice throughout the issue all together. How does that contradict Thor -who's had his buttons pushed- nearly putting Cain down after unloading on him repeatedly? And are you really going to argue that Thunderbolts Juggernaut cannot be put down?

Originally posted by zopzop
Thank you! People seem to forget these. Oh and don't forget Strange owned the Inbetweener who was amped by the LT presence. And the IB is an abstract being.

Strange didn't really own him he just called Lord Chaos and Master Order to come get him.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No, I think yours is.

Hulk could physically affect Cain:

Merged Hulk obviously rocked Cain:

The air got knocked out of his lungs? Where was that stated as the reason for what happened?

How much time are you going to waste desperately searching for contradictions?

We saw Thor strike Juggernaut twice throughout the issue all together. How does that contradict Thor -who's had his buttons pushed- nearly putting Cain down after unloading on him repeatedly? And are you really going to argue that Thunderbolts Juggernaut cannot be put down?


Physically affect him? Yes, but damage him no. WWH managed to only dent his helmet. What you see there is a reaction to being hit, not necessarily being hurt.

For the Prof. Hulk scan, Juggernaut wasn't prepared for the attack and thought Hulk was on his side. It is not hard for Hulk to knocked a 900 lb. man on the ground. The comment about the air escaping his lungs was to give reason to the "unffff" that Cain is making. He was KO'd by the psychic back lash wave.

Case in point, when bone claw Wolverine slashed at Hulk's neck. Hulk's instant reaction was to grab his neck to stop the bleeding and he made a noise such as Cain in the upper two scans. In actuality he was not hurt at all. It was just a reaction on his part. He looked down and back at Logan asking, "Are those bone?"

I'm using Thunderbolt's Cain to show that he was weaker, w/o a shield, being rocked by Thor's hits with Mjolnir and was NOT staggering like he was in the Thor issue while at full power. KING HYPERION was also trying to KILL Juggernaut, but wasn't able to KO him. In both instances he was bleeding badly, but was not one punch away from a KO. So a full powered Juggernaut would be able to stand up to so much more.

I'm going to agree with Galan. More than just his shield was taken away in that fight. Otherwise that moment is PIS. After Thor's little trick was over and Cain's shield returns he is also returned to fighting form, as if he was not one punch away from being put down. He then is able to retaliate and knock Thor down. Usually when you are about to be KO'd, your attacks are not strong or fast, especially when you are staggering about trying to gain a foot hold.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm sorry but that stance makes little sense to me. In particular because you think he took a huge hit in strength/durability. Juggy obviously took a huge hit in durability, as he didn't have a FF protecting him.

As for strength: I do not believe Juggy is THAT far below Thor from a physical standpoint- ie. if all of Juggy's strength was intact, I don't think Thor could have physically wrecked him with only a few punches... But like I said, I don't care either way. Fact is: Juggy's enchantment can, and has, been negated by a LOT less than major abstracts

Wasn't it suggested that Cyttorak was among the beings afraid of Dormammu when he was called to witness his HTH battle with Dr. Strange? Just going by memory, been a while since I read the issue.

Johnny Sorrow? mhmm

No one without the use of certain mystical forces would be able to kill the Juggernaut. Certain being the key word.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Johnny Sorrow? mhmm

I think Sorrow's gaze would effect him, but I wouldn't be surprised if instead of killing him it wound up either turning him into stone or BFRing him or some other effect.

Originally posted by Devron87
Seem a good start........

http://i55.tinypic.com/n5rhb6.png

http://i52.tinypic.com/9qe6i0.png i noticed you sneaking in hulk knocking out a semi-phased vision while the latter is owning juggernaut

nice biscuits