Kreia runs the gauntlet!

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Korto Vos
Since she has been the recent star of this forum...


1. Asajj Ventress

2. Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi, & Shaak Ti

3. Grievous & 3 Magna-Guards

4. Count Dooku

5. Star Forge Malak

6. Darth Vader (suited)

7. ROTS Anakin & Obi-Wan

GenomeFrozener
Can she use the UBAR Drain?

Korto Vos
For all intents and purposes, she has access to a powerful Force Drain (not something that could be argued as bringing instant death to anyone, regardless of the individual's power/strength).

GenomeFrozener
I'd say she clears it, but I feel Dooku would give her some trouble at least.

Korto Vos
o.O Huh, you hold her in very high esteem, don't you?

Zampanó
I don't think she takes anyone above Grievous. Maybe she can take Grievous.

Nephthys
She clears it.

Korto Vos
Ya I would say she dies at 3, 4, or 5.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Nephthys
She clears it.

Kreia absolutely does not defeat Darth Vader.

Nephthys
Why not?

I don't see you defending Starkiller, Vaders superior over in the other thread.

Korto Vos
If you ignore the controversial drain and see it as rather a powerful (regular version) Force Drain, then Starkiller would destroy Kreia in an objective fight.

Nephthys
And how exactly is ignoring her greatest asset an 'objective' fight?

Zampanó
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not?

I don't see you defending Starkiller, Vaders superior over in the other thread.

Mostly because I'm not reading the other thread?

Anyway, Starkiller isn't in this thread. Vader is in this thread and she doesn't beat Vader. His TK is too strong (see ya later floating lightsabers), he is too fast (see ya lader surprise attack on the Sith Assassins from Malachor), and he is historically strong in the Force.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Korto Vos
If you ignore the controversial drain and see it as rather a powerful (regular version) Force Drain, then Starkiller would destroy Kreia in an objective fight.

We don't get to make up characters' abilities. Kreia's drain doesn't get changed to something simpler just to make her easier to debate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And how exactly is ignoring her greatest asset an 'objective' fight?
It wouldn't be. However, we don't have to ignore it. Kreia has shown the ability to drain three powerful individuals with a technique they do not fully understand. Vader has a much higher chance of mounting a defense; he can use, for example, the technique that protected him against the Dark Reaper.

Korto Vos

Nephthys

Nephthys
BTW, this being a gauntlet actually helps her since she'll be growing in power with each round. So that is also funny.

Zampanó
Premise 1: Kreia is able to use her instadrain without any warning or preparation.
Premise 2: Kreia's technique killed the Jedi Masters in KotOR II instantaneously.
Premise 3: Vader's defense is no stronger than those Jedi.
Premise 4: Vader will be unable to act while the drain is in progress.
Conclusion: Kreia is able to defeat Vader by dint of the drain alone.

Obviously, I disagree with a number of your premises. In order:
(1) Kreia sat down for several minutes prior to using the attack on the Jedi masters; it is not unusual for powerful techniques like this to require some sort of charge time. Look at Dooku, whose assault on Yoda is temporarily stopped while he initiates various TK attacks.

(3) Vader has experience resisting attacks on his command of the Force. The Dark Reaper uses just that kind of assault. Through Luke's account of learning the weather control technique in one of the more recent books, there is an instinctive method of learning new techniques similar to those already mastered. In that book, Luke just cycles through different mindsets until he discovers a new way to levitate an orb using electric charge. Vader, equipped with much the same connection to the Force, already has a technique known to defend his Force presence. It is a simple and instinctive matter, then, for him to resist the drain for some amount of time.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Vader's Force defense (which is largely an instinctive measure, according to many sources Shatterpoint, and even Maul against the Nightsister]) would be at the same level as the Jedi Council of KotOR II. Vader is equipped with a historically unique connection to the Force and the knowledge of how to defend against similar attacks. Kreia's other victims have no such advantages.

(4) Vader is well-known for using the Force in many directions at once. In ESB, when his character was still being defined, he used the Force on several objects at once during his bombardment of Luke. In RotS, after refining the franchise's approach to the Force, GL authorized a passage wherein Anakin tosses several different objects at the Count with back-breaking speed. Against a foe that stands stationary as Kreia always has, these tactics will be devastating.



Again, I disagree with the premise that the drain is instantaneous. If it is not, all he has to do is interrupt the attack, and suddenly Kreia is on the defensive.

Anyway, I quoted this passage and emphasized some of your words so that I can remind you of when he evaded Aleema Yar who had a lightsaber while he did not, as well as the entirety of The Force Unleashed.

Nephthys

ares834

Stealth Moose

Zampanó
Originally posted by Nephthys
(1) Can you prove that it requires charge time? I doubt it. I can also refute it. For a start Kreia spent this time telepathically (or otherwise) listening in on the Exiles conversion, and only chose to attack the Council after they moved to cut the Exile off from the Force in a fit of anger at their arrogance.
This is not an argument against charge time, nor is it an argument against her intention to attack; Kreia had established the groundwork for an Exile-less escape from Dantooine (i.e. arranged transportation) and was ready should her latest student "fail."
Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore we have seen the attack used against the Exile at a moments notice by Nihilus. I anticipate that you'll claim that he also had charge time, but I'll remind you that Visas (who is Force bonded to him, so she is in my mind quite reliable) points out that he doesn't give a shit about the party before you actually confront him.
I'll thank you not to use Visas against me; I am likewise of the mind that she is reliable. However, that does not detract from the resting potential of a Sith Lord's connection to the Force. When N. uses his drain, he has just been preparing to use it on Telos. When N. uses his drain, he is not in the midst of combat.

Moreover, you will have to substantiate that Kreia's drain is the same as N.'s. I think it is a bit of a jump to just assume that Kreia is using the exact same technique; this shows no visible effect when Kreia has the Force removed from her by N. Moreover, she mentions (during her exposition about N.) that it is an instinct that rules him like a drug. Kreia isn't the sort to become addicted to the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And also he uses another Force move beforehand on the party, as does Keia when she pushes Vrook on his ass. Lasty there is no evidence the attack requires a charge time, and so your point sadly falls into the category of baseless speculation.
My point is not so much that she has to charge it up (although that is possible) but that she has not been shown to use it when a belligerent opponent is taken into consideration. My point is that she can use it when people wait for their turn to talk. Facing a speedblitz may be a different story.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As an aside I cannot recall a single other ability that requires a charge time. Would you care to name a few?



Originally posted by Nephthys
(2) No, it achieves the same ends. There is no evidence it is the same attack and can be blocked in the same way. Learning does not equal defending. Luke was not learning the weather control technique whilst the Force was being utterly drained from him in a few millisecends (at least, I assume wink ). Vader does not have the luxury of 'cylcing through a few different mindsets' until he can come up with a defence. Not unless he became a supergenius since last I saw him.

Also Qel'Droma's method of resisting the Dark Reaper is not a trditional form of defence against the ability. Personally I don't think it actually makes a lick of sense anyway. And as I explained in the other thread, I quite agree that Vader's personal defence would be greater than any one of the Jedi Council members. But she did not drain just one of them. She drained three of them seemingly without effort or fatique.
The question isn't one of 'cycling through mindsets,' although I applaud your use of my own words against me. Instead, as I indicated just a few lines down, an established defensive avenue provides a place to start. Especially when a Force user is in danger, the Force is an instinctive defense. Given structure by formal technique, he will have a much better defense.

Zampanó
Admittedly, this is conjecture. However, the jump from "killed three Jedi Masters" to "one-shots Darth Vader" is a similarly large leap. I know you've argued against no-limits fallacies in the past, so I'm sure you'll appreciate my position here, as well. It is completely plausible that Darth Vader, augmented by a structured defense, is simply stronger than those three Jedi masters combined.
Originally posted by Nephthys
(4) And I suppose he can do this before she can raise her hand and smite him? Anakin throwing anything against the Count did not happen in the movie, so I assume thats not strictly canon.
I am particularly dubious about the speed with which you expect Kreia to attack. The pace of duels is quick enough that even a mere gesture becomes a great endeavor indeed. One gesture was all that stood between Mace's lightsaber and Palpatine, and look how that ended. No, in the space of time that it takes to blink, Windu can strike several times. Grievous strikes twenty times each second. A hand gesture is nothing to sneeze at.

In regards to canonicity, I can only reassert that GL approved each line of the novel, and draw your attention to various cutaways from the Anakin/Dooku duel itself (like Palpatine cheerleading) that provide opportunity for novelized content to not-contradict the movie. For reference, the quote:

Originally posted by Nephthys
You have actually seen the scene of it killing the Jedi Masters right? It is pretty damn close to instantaneous. If you have any actual evidence that it isn't though then I'll be happy to hear it.
Define instantaneous. Any duration whatsoever provides the mammoth TK abilities at Vader's disposal their opportunity. Reflexes of a pilot, no scratch that a pod racer mean that in less than a second, Kreia could be flying upside down and sideways into a bulkhead. When combined with his probably effective defense, Vader has a chance, at least, of resisting Kreia's drain even on her terms.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What about the Force Unleashed? I don't really recall him showing a great deal of speed there. Of course, I'm not calling him slow, its just that he hasn't shown the kind of speed where he can kill someone before they can raise their damn hand before to my knowledge.


I'm cutting it close on length, so if you require more speedfeats I'll have them on next reply.

Zampanó
Hello blindsided.

Janus, I'm sorry but I don't have time to reply to your post. Please PM Neph and have him copypaste anything relevant into his next reply.

Nephthys
Very well. I'll give Janus some time to send me anything he wants to say if he so wishes, or to decline if he is of that mind.

Stealth Moose
I'm at work, so feel free to unload. I'll offer support when needed. I don't have access to my SW ebooks or files, so I'm a bit hamstrung if pressed for sources.

Turr_Phennir
Agreed, though I wish you would have indulged in this progressive thinking when we were discussing the ability of Palpatine to summon a Force Storm without preparation. You didn't seem so inclined then. mmm



Why wouldn't it be?



Why wouldn't he?
Since when do we argue what a character will do versus what they can do? This isn't an RPG; there is no elected Game Master; there is no arbiter who decides what actions a character would and would not take during the course of a battle. That opens a can of worms as ugly and writhing as the one you suggest Zamp will open by arbitrarily introducing the existence of preparation where there is no evidence of it.



A chance? If Vader is capable of negating the power of her drain, I see no reason why he doesn't effortlessly crush her. In fact, Zamp's correct in one regard: Nothing has been brought to the table by you or Zeph that suggests she'd last longer than the extent of Vader's amusement.



He should, it's important. There's no evidence suggesting that her strength in the Force is remotely close to anything that, in turn, might remotely compare to Vader's regularly established primacy in that department.



Zamp never argued that this was the case. But the recurring trend with Force potential is that it needn't be realized in order to be at play; it is Vader's strength in the Force that enables him to be so overwhelmingly powerful in spite of a limited arsenal of attacks when compared to the relatively vast skills of an advanced Sith like KreiaPalpatine.



Refresh my memory on Kreia's uberness beyond her Force drain, because I don't recall any. Her precognition and powers during the battle with the Exile were enhanced by the dark nexus of Malachor the ability to lift three lightsabers in the Force would make the Temple padawans in Attack of the Clones yawn.



Which means?



Naturally, you disservice Vader and his feats rather completely, but that's okay, because Kreia even looks more pathetic via similar treatment. Vader's range of feats vastly outstrip Kreia's and no amount of mockery alters or undermines that fact in the slightest.



General Grievous could use four and was a master of multiple styles of combat. Kreia's ability to almost replicate the same is woefully substandard, especially when one considers she was standing in the heart of a dark side nexus to pull that feat off. I guess the lightsabers are relevant only because of the comedic look of sheer horror Kreia will display when puts all three of them through her skull with his vastly superior telekinetic skills. erm



As Zamp has pointed out, Vader has a defense against the Force Drain and Kreia's telekinesis is paltry in comparison. Slow/Stun/Fear are the result of game play mechanics and are used so liberally that they might well have come straight from SW_LeGenD's deepest, darkest sexual fantasy. I'm not sure how they're important here, so if you wouldn't mind enlightening the non-believer, I'd appreciate it.



Why didn't she use the attack on him? erm



So her skills as a manipulator enhance her abilities as a Force-user and duelist? mmm

Let me try something,



Is this acceptable to you? Because that's pretty much what you're saying here, I gather.



The fact that he actually does die suggests otherwise. no expression

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Why wouldn't it be?

Because it is not facing the same ability (nor is it an actual defence at all).

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because it is not facing the same ability (nor is it an actual defence at all).

According to?

Nephthys

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
According to?

Go see my reply in the other thread.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
Go see my reply in the other thread.

I did, and all I saw was a reference to gameplay animations, i.e. they look different. Which is pretty funny. no expression

Nephthys

Stealth Moose
Notice that Escape drops out of cloak mode and swoops in on my argument. No wai!!!

Originally posted by Turr_PhennirAgreed, though I wish you would have indulged in this progressive thinking when we were discussing the ability of Palpatine to summon a Force Storm without preparation. You didn't seem so inclined then. mmm

I thought we agreed that in the context of the story, DE Sids was requiring some prep to make the ability work, else he could not have been "distracted" and "lost control". Also, we concluded that DE Sids does not deliberately drop Storms on his lap and expect to survive, so it never had the importance in these versus forums as we put on it.



That depends on whether or not you believe that the ability is a "catch-all" for all types and uses of Force Drain, and whether or not Vader would recognize his foe as being one who utilizes Force Drain and quickly work up the defense.

The second part in particular is crucial; Kreia has demonstrated the will and the power to employ her drain when threatened or when she feels it is warranted. It is not established that Vader would recognize Kreia, that he would think "Oh hai, Furce Drainz, me bring up DBZ sheildz", and that he would be successful in time to block what appears to be instant.



Part of making a convincing argument instead of arguing out of your ass is knowing when and where defenses are appropriate against obvious advantages the opposition has. In a field like SW, where Force defense is extremely nebulous and open to interpretation, arguing context is important because we're assuming for the sake of common sense that the battle will not consist of "spam abilities at highest peak" but "this is how X acts, and will act similarly in battle with Y, unless the TC says otherwise".

In the Battlezone, it's noted that Yoda and Voldemort are combat ready, unhampered by either setting or arbitrary rules, and have a basic knowledge of the others' combat abilities. Since this is not put forth here (allowing for participant's interpretation instead), it's perfectly logical to assume Vader would be caught flat-footed against an ancient technique which he has only ever encountered once, and that years ago by the Reaper.

If someone assumes Vader would instantly recognize Kreia, recognize her ability and muster a counter in the time it takes for his brain synapses to fire, then by all means, provide instances. I'm waiting.



Here's the run of Vader's "edge" here:

1. He's bigger.

2. He has a historic connection to the Forcewhichhedoesn'trealizebuthey****thatbecauseits
askewedargument.

3. Kreia has not been directly measured up against Vader or anyone Vader can be equated with when it comes to saber use or general Force use (read: rawr!TK); therefore, she is weaker.

So really, what am I combating?



You're missing the point - his potential does not decide his battles for him. Read: Starkiller losing to Vader and Sidious. Read: Luke Skywalker losing to anyone. Read: Anakin being beaten by Obi-Wan.

Would you argue Skywalker > Yoda based on his uber connection? Of course not. It is a facet of his backstory, but it does not net him a clear victory in all battles, or many for that matter. In one particular instance (Dooku), he tapped this potential and beat one of the best Jedi in the Order evah by your own admission/opinion/random quote, but then Obi-Wan who was ranked lower by nearly everyone held him at bay until he undid himself.

Now, am I expected to believe that Anakin is to be taken at full peak/faultless measure in all battles? That's even more *****-happy than Kreia's insta-kill, or Kun's spammin' amulets. If Anakin "taps" his potential in any and all versus battles, he ought to be outright ignored and replaced with someone far more reasonable. Like Starkiller.



Yet Palpatine would spank Vader like his disobedient child, even before his DE incarnation. The gap between Palpatine and Vader is considerable, and the main difference between them is Vader's own mental limitations and Palp's larger base of Force knowledge. To be it bluntly, Vader is the guy who comes to the raid having put all his points in Swing Sword, Throw Shit while everyone else has support/AoE/CC abilities on top of that.

Against someone who is wise in the Force and formidable, he looks very basic. His hope is in an ability that he can or cannot use instantly and successfully, and getting in close, tanking three floating sabers and Force attacks left right and center to swing his big glow stick.

Suuuure.



Kreia demonstrates Stun/Slow/Fear/Lightning abilities in the game. Also, since when is it mentioned that she can only TK three blades on Malachor? Dark Side Nexus points aid Dark Side powers, hence their name. They don't boost neutral TK, dude. I don't suddenly lift X-wings because I'm squatting on Korriban, lol.

I'm near my char limit, and not going to repeat myself again.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I did, and all I saw was a reference to gameplay animations, i.e. they look different. Which is pretty funny. no expression

The difference in Kotor 2 and Unseen, Unheard is completely logical and justified as Avellone was the creator of both. No such link exists the explain the discrepency between the Clone Wars game and K2 and UU.

You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

Oooo... Good point.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

no expression

I'm not seeing the necessity of creating Force bonds in a technique that drains the Force. So speaking of flowery language....


I shall return soon. I must devour a local Rally's.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
no expression

I'm not seeing the necessity of creating Force bonds in a technique that drains the Force. So speaking of flowery language....

This from the Dark Master of Semantics.

No really, I'm waiting anxiously for your reply. At least, until I can get out of work and go play Deus Ex HR until the hurricane comes.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This from the Dark Master of Semantics.

That's an excellent title. As for my response/s, you'll need to wait a sec. Food beckons.

Stealth Moose
Rally's is good. We don't have any iirc around here. I may be gone within the next hour or so, though, so no worries if you don't reply.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
no expression

I'm not seeing the necessity of creating Force bonds in a technique that drains the Force. So speaking of flowery language....


I shall return soon. I must devour a local Rally's.

Jesus Christ, do I have to explain this ****ing attack to you guys again!

Stealth Moose
Once moar, plz.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Nephthys
You think that she was 'charging' her attack while simultaneously listening in on the conversation through the Force? Well woman can multi-task I guess....... erm
Listening... through the Force? Her ears are broken? laughing
Originally posted by Nephthys
And yeah it is an argument against her going to attack. She had no intention of attacking before they Council forced her to. Hell, the entire point of everything she did with the Exile was to shove him in their faces about how ****ing awesome he became under her tutalage. She wasn't intending to kill them when she went there (that you can prove >:3 ).
I'm confused. Your interpretation of her intentions is... more canon than an alternative interpretation? When did that happen?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, he wasn't in combat.

Because he's stunned the party. Do you suppose that a Force-user can charge up an ability, use another ability and then use the charged up ability?
Again, look at the Bane PoD quote. That little speech from Kas'im the Magnificent is enough for Bane to muster enough strength to level the temple. Taking a bit of a breather while the Exile&Co. are stunned is completely plausible. Your objection is noted, but not decisive. The possibility stands.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and with the case of Kreia also telepathically listen in on a conversation whilst doing so? Yeah, I don't think so.
Kreia's ears are broken... why?
Originally posted by Nephthys
And 'resting potential?' Is Kreia coming into this fight after pulling a few all-nighters?
Resting Potential. Essentially, without the stress and distraction of combat, any attack is going to have the entire power and attention of the practitioner. For example, Kenobi was able to call his lightsaber to him in TPM during a lull in the fight, but the same maneuver in AotC is beyond him because Jango Fett kept him occupied.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed, as much as I love Kotor 2 and **** it, it is wildly inconsistent on some aspects and really annoyingly vague and hard to understand on others. That the attack is invisible in the Betrayal scene would be because its actually a cutscene, and so graphical aspects may be different.
So... the visual evidence is vague and hard to understand but we should totally trust you, right? I don't think it works like that. Kreia's drain is different from N.'s drain is different from the technique that cut her off from the Force is different from the planet-destroying drain. Simplest explanation that incorporates all the evidence.
Originally posted by Nephthys

However:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2053/img-108.JPG

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-104.JPG

And also Chris Avellone brought this out that changed the look again:

mK8UiRGIltY

This one is the canonical one. It was brought out the latest and by the guy in charge of Kotor 2, effectively retconning it.

Theres also these little factoids:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG
Yeah no. Doesn't work like that. You get to either pick up the newest canon version (which shows N.'s gigadrain to look very much like the Dark Reaper) or you go with the original versions, where the technique used on Kreia is invisible while the personal drain is orange.


1. You'll notice that N. already has a life-draining gift.
2. Kreia's commentary on the issue during the game is clear enough... the drain that the Exile and N. use is instinctive.

So it is not the same move as N. uses.

Well, when missiles and debris are flying at me, it gets a little bit harder to think. When the telekinetic grip of a Dark Lord of the Sith is at my throat, it is sometimes a little hard to access a universal energy field that I hate. Maybe that's just me.

The point is that combat includes both offensive and defensive measures, often in tandem. Even Luke can't use every technique at once; he has to take himself out of the fight during Invincible to cast an illusion over Jaina. Had he been forced to defend himself during the battle, the illusion would have been shattered.




Thank you for the compliment.

You've yet to prove milliseconds, you've yet to prove that his innate defense is negligible, you've yet to prove that Kreia's gesture (which takes longer than many other offensive actions we've seen in the mythos) would outpace Vader's reactions, and you've yet to prove that Vader wouldn't simply implode the witch's think pan.


You've spent a lot of words about how Kreia only has to gesture, and then Vader dies. Let's talk about how Kreia dies. Vader doesn't have to gesture to initiate his trademark Force Choke. Vader doesn't even have to have eye contact- the attack has been used from lightyears away. Vader has mammoth strength at his disposal (have you played TFU?) and could simply apply that force (lowercase 'f') to Kreia's temple and be done with it.

See, it's easy to say that your character will simply one shot the opposition, isn't it?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Once moar, plz.

This image basically sums it up:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-73.JPG

****ing vrook

Nephthys

Zampanó
laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

Nephthys
Mockery, Zam? That seems out of character.

At the very least Kotor 2 came after that dreadful game so its the more canonical one. If it is the same attack at least Nihilus wasn't wiping out planets with ****ing pink fog. facepalm

ares834
Both are pretty shitty tbh.

Nephthys
Unseen, Unheard is epic shut up! estahuh

Zampanó
no expression

i THOUGHT YOU WERE BEING FACETIOUS ****FACE



big grin
erm

Nephthys
Am I not?

edit: **** you and **** that resting potential link

Zampanó
What's wrong with my link?

Nephthys
It makes my brain hurt.

Stealth Moose
Arc of energy >>> pink fog.

/debate.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Rally's is good. We don't have any iirc around here. I may be gone within the next hour or so, though, so no worries if you don't reply.

We ended up at Taco Bell. erm

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Arc of energy >>> pink fog.

/debate.

Black Smoke Monster attack is the kewlest.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
Black Monster attack is the kewlest.

Sounds like a pr0n movie.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Black Smoke Monster attack is the kewlest.


Sounds like Barry.

Turr_Phennir

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The eagerness with which the opposition is embracing the notion that the Dark Reaper’s drain is incompatible with that of Nihilus or Kreia is perplexing to me, when the evidence so strongly indicates that they are, in fact, the same.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.









I am not explaining it again.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

Nephthys
Yes.

Turr_Phennir
Where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I am not explaining it again.

I'm not sure you ever did in the first place. Using the search function, I'm not having any luck finding answers from you that answer my question here.

Nephthys
Do you think the Jedi Masters were so afraid of The Exiles ability to easily form Force Bonds above all else because they just didn't want her to have friends?

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think the Jedi Masters were so afraid of The Exiles ability to easily form Force Bonds above all else because they just didn't want her to have friends?

Well the Jedi historically disapprove of attachments. erm

That little nugget of fact wrapped snugly within the confines of light sarcasm aside, clearly there is a danger to her instinctive use of Force bonds, particularly in the realm of manipulation and the danger she exposes others to. Clearly the Jedi feel that such power is corrupting.

Nevertheless, I haven't seen any evidence indicating Nihilus or Kreia formed bonds with their victims, which (according to you) they have to in order to use the technique.

Nephthys

Turr_Phennir

Nephthys

Turr_Phennir
Might as well make this my frakkin' signature.



So Kreia and Nihilus and all of the other Sith are wounds in the Force too? And I still don't see evidence of Nihilus and Kreia forming Force bonds with their victims.

Nephthys
Also earlier in the game Kreia actually tells you about the Nihilus' attack earlier and it matchs. I'm currently hunting it down.

Turr_Phennir
Your diligence is appreciated.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Might as well make this my frakkin' signature.



So Kreia and Nihilus and all of the other Sith are wounds in the Force too? And I still don't see evidence of Nihilus and Kreia forming Force bonds with their victims.


I told you I didn't want to repost the explanation. That took a long time to get all the images. And please, that wasn't even an insult, just an expression of frustration.

I'm on it now.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
just an expression of frustration.

You have so many these days. erm

Nephthys
Ah **** it. Kreia talks too much in that game anyway. No way am I looking through all her goddamn dialogue. Maybe later.

The Council flat out tells you its the same technique. Boom. End of story.

Edit: Maybe if you'd be less frustrating.....

Plus its like 4 in the morning over here.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah **** it. Kreia talks too much in that game anyway. No way am I looking through all her goddamn dialogue. Maybe later.

Oh, there's no rush.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Council flat out tells you its the same technique. Boom. End of story.

If by story you mean your argument, then I suppose this is the end. You have asserted that the Force drain used by the Exile, Nihilus, and Kreia require active use of Force bonds to their victims. The dialogue and evidence you provided do not even remotely suggest that it is a necessary component of the drain, merely a danger by way of dominating the minds and wills of others. erm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Maybe if you'd be less frustrating.....

I'm not frustrating. I simply don't roll over and accept your view of the world and of video games and fiction and everything else simply because you want me to. If that frustrates you, you should invest time in increasing your patience or cease arguing with me altogether.

Nephthys

Nephthys

Turr_Phennir
The only thing I'm refusing is, as Zamp alluded to earlier in this thread, to accept your interpretation of canon which is constructed through sheer fiat.



Nowhere is it said in the evidence you provided that the ability to form Force bonds is a direct component of the drain. erm

Nephthys

Turr_Phennir
Just to make my answer a little more thorough, Neph, what gave the Exile and Nihilus the ability to form bonds so easily? The incident at Malachor V, right?

Nephthys
I believe the Exile always had a talent for forming bonds. Why?

Korto Vos
This topic would have been a great Battlezone!

Turr_Phennir
And the others?

Nephthys
I imagine thats what Vrook is talking about when he says that they learnt part of the technique from the Exile.

Nephthys
Actually, this makes more sense than I realised. The Exile was able to just 'do' the technique without really meaning to. She doesn't even need to consciously do it at all, it comes naturally to her, which makes sense given how the Jedi emphasise her unique ability to create Force Bonds so easily. When the Sith use it it is always intentional. Because it isn't something they're so uniquely skilled in.


Also:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-77.JPG

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-78.JPG

More emphasis on the Force bonding being the real threat.

Turr_Phennir
Correct, not the drain. Getting to that. 13

Nephthys
The bonding is a part of the drain.

he

Turr_Phennir
(I had to listen/watch the confrontation between the Jedi Masters and the Exile & Traya multiple times for accuracy.)

I remain entirely unconvinced by the idea that the talent of creating Force bonds is a direct and necessary component of the drain technique utilized by the Exile, Nihilus, and Traya.

It must be reiterated that you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence suggesting that Nihilus formed a bond with his victims on Katarr; the dialogue here (the 1:21 mark onwards) indicates that they'd never even encountered Nihilus before, much less stood directly in his presence. Where was the bond formed that was necessary for Nihilus to drain their life essences? Likewise, you haven't provided a single shred of evidence that Traya possessed the gift. Certainly, the Jedi Masters don't exhibit the telltale corruption or sycophantic nature of either zombie!Tobin or the Exile's companions, the trademarks of the respective Force bonds of Nihilus and the Exile.

In point of fact, it is never explicitly stated that Force bonds have anything to do with the Force drain technique; continuing from the most recent screenshots, the Jedi elucidate (1:26 mark) as to their fear of the Exile's ability to create Force bonds:

"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained Jedi to consume and kill?"

They fear that the Exile will create others like herself.

Between this and the fact that Avellone makes it abundantly clear that the ancient Sith could have used the technique if not for their fear of destroying their personalities, I stand by my original assessment. erm

truejedi
Hmm, question here though: How much of what the Jedi say is canon? I mean, it can all be skipped, or they can say something entirely different. Which conversation path is canon?

Turr_Phennir
No idea, but presumably all the options are canon unless they run contrary to the light side ending.

truejedi
presumably? some options cannot be accessed when other options are accessed. You can't access both, in other words, and the lightside ending can remain. It's confusing.

Turr_Phennir
Are you sure?

Zampanó
shut up tj


The fact that it is in the dialogue means that it is a thing that they would say which means that it is a window into their mind which means that it is genuine knowledge that they have. It is a canon fact that they think these things. Whether the Exile knew all of them? Not so much. However, ignoring our only source of evidence is not the way to settle tis argument.

Turr_Phennir
Well, as far as I've seen, Neph's assertion is without merit. In addition to the obvious absence of an explicit confirmation, the evidence collectively points against such an idea. It would require that Nihilus be able to create bonds with hundreds of Jedi Knights whom he has never encountered before; it would require that Traya possess a talent she is never said to have and wield it against those who show know sign of the diminished will or dominated psyche that are hallmarks of such a technique.

In essence, it requires that we accept purely on faith, not fact. And this ain't a religion. ahuh

truejedi
don't tell me to shut up. you shut up. you are mean.

Turr_Phennir
See the 9:35 mark for the dialogue option: "I learned that I form connections through the Force -- and that is why others follow me to their deaths."

Still no reference to the danger of a Force drain. :/

Nephthys
'Know sign?' Tee hee.

Ok, time to crack some heads.

Nephthys

Turr_Phennir

Turr_Phennir
On the other hand, I'm starting to like the stories of both games much moar.

Nephthys
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:

'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'

'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'

Turr_Phennir
It's really annoying that the guy who uploaded The Clone Wars walkthrough wasn't courteous enough to leave the cutscenes untouched.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:

'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'

Do you have a cutscene or link or something? It would be nice to get the full conversation in context.

Edit: Never mind, I found it on Wookieepedia.

Nephthys
I'm actually playing the game right now. I couldn't be ****ed to look through the LP anymore. So no link I'm afraid.


'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's really annoying that the guy who uploaded The Clone Wars walkthrough wasn't courteous enough to leave the cutscenes untouched.

Tell me about it. *******.

Nephthys
Should I still reply to your post? Looking through it most of it is 'prove up *******.' Its going to get very repititious me just copy pasting the above quotes.

Turr_Phennir
My copy of the game (and by that I mean The Clone Wars) is lost to the howling abyss that is my room. Even if I were to somehow stumble across it, my Xbox 360 S no longer has its hard drive due to a clerical error at Best Buy, and so I lack the means by which to even play the game. So I'll be placing my faith that the individuals who provided the quotes for the Wookieepedia section (not the article text, but the quotes) transcribed them verbatim.



This passage doesn't make reference to conjuring personal bonds specifically but could also speak of powers such as Battle Meditation, in which users can manipulate the minds and wills of others without manufacturing such direct, personal connections.

Anyways, this is the situation as I see it:





The descriptions provided by the Campaign Guide and Count Dooku are identical to the nature of the drain utilized by Nihilus and Kreia in every significant way. It not only drains the Force, but the very life essence of its victims, and based on the gameplay concerning the Battle of Alaris Prime, the Reaper also devastates the surrounding landscape in its quest to absorb life. The fact that the Reaper emits a different color than those of Nihilus and Kreia is immaterial; Luke Skywalker notes during his confrontation with the Hidden One in the Fate of the Jedi series that his opponent's Force lightning is different in appearance to that of Emperor Palpatine's, yet the technique is not considered different.

The Reaper was designed by the ancient Sith, whom we all know are the progenitors of the technique used by Nihilus and Kreia. Avellone indicates that the only reason preventing the ancient Sith from utilizing the technique was their fear that they would ultimately surrender their identities to it, as Nihilus eventually does; imbuing artifacts like Ragnos's scepter and the Force Harvester with such power solves that problem: By making use of the artifacts, they are free to unleash the power of that unholy technique without losing their personalities in the process. The nature and effect of both drains is demonstrably the same; both drain the Force, drain life essences, can destroy the surrounding environment, and both drains use that siphoned energy to empower the user.



Here, Ulic says that he can make Anakin immune to the Dark Reaper's effect -- which I have demonstrated to be the same effect as the Force drain used by Nihilus and Kreia. Perhaps if their drain effected something other than the Force or life essences, I could understand your protests, but ultimately that is what it robs from the victim.

I stand by my assessment: the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that these powers are one in the same and, even if there is a presence of a Force bond in the maneuvers utilized by Kreia and Nihilus (of which there is no evidence for their many victims), the effect is ultimately the same and that is what Anakin/Vader can resist.

Nephthys

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:

'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'

'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'

Addmitedly I don't know the full context of the quote, but must these "connections" be force bonds? I would assume not as the Force "binds the galaxy together" meaning everything is connected. Furtermore, people manage to send their will through the Force without the need of force bonds so it these connections are likely something different.

Nephthys
Force Bonds are specifically mentioned as being 'connections in the Force.' But my reply to Gideon talks about this in more detail.

Nephthys

Nephthys
Also apparantly Ulic taught the Jedi the technique of resisting the Dark Reaper. But Kreia notes that theres no defense. Did they forget about it in a measly 40 years? ****, Kreia was alive and a member of teh Order at that point! So what the hell?

Stealth Moose
Ulic knowing how to make himself a wound in the Force seems really, really stupid considering he was unwillingly and suddenly blocked from all his Force powers. That's like losing your hand and suddenly knowing how to make space age-prosthetics.

Shoddy writing.

Nephthys
Oh yeah. You'd have funk that if he could have blocked getting cut off from the Force he'd of done that when he was cut off from the force.

Stealth Moose
If I could invalidate stupid EU based on stupid writing, my path to power and domination of SWVF would be complete.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If I could invalidate stupid EU based on stupid writing, my path to power and domination of SWVF would be complete.

It would be very interesting to see the result of this. mmm

Nephthys
No more Dark Empire.

OH what a glorious day that would be. love

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
No more Dark Empire.

OH what a glorious day that would be. love

That doesn't perturb me in the slightest, unless it would be part of a campaign to trump up certain characters and eras. Not that I would ever suggest you or Janus would be capable of such a petty, bitter action......................................

haermm

Nephthys
Indeed. I am infallible.

Turr_Phennir
It's been 4 days. erm

Nephthys
The day after I wrote that I found out I had minus 1000 pounds and that the bank was threatening to take away my overdraft privilages. It skipped my mind.

Blick Winkel
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also apparantly Ulic taught the Jedi the technique of resisting the Dark Reaper. But Kreia notes that theres no defense. Did they forget about it in a measly 40 years? ****, Kreia was alive and a member of teh Order at that point! So what the hell?

I would think that this strongly establishes that the two attacks do functionally differ, if what you're saying is indeed true.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir





Originally posted by Count Dooku
You shall be honored. You will be the first Jedi in a thousand years to feel the effects of the Harvester. Your lifeforce will be absorbed, as well as everything else in this forest, and in the end, I will destroy the Republic you fought so hard to defend.


The descriptions provided by the Campaign Guide and Count Dooku are identical to the nature of the drain utilized by Nihilus and Kreia in every significant way.

'Every Singnificant Way?' I'm afraid not. Does, for instance, the Dark Reaper utterly sever the Force from living things to the extent that it leaves behind a literal absense in the Force? Or does it only use the lesser Force Drain that pretty much any Sith can use?

Also, as per Kreia's words on the last page, the technique 'severs' life from the Force. It does not directly drain it as your quotes proclaim the Dark Reaper does.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It not only drains the Force, but the very life essence of its victims, and based on the gameplay concerning the Battle of Alaris Prime, the Reaper also devastates the surrounding landscape in its quest to absorb life. The fact that the Reaper emits a different color than those of Nihilus and Kreia is immaterial; Luke Skywalker notes during his confrontation with the Hidden One in the Fate of the Jedi series that his opponent's Force lightning is different in appearance to that of Emperor Palpatine's, yet the technique is not considered different.

Do the words 'Electric Judgment' ring any bells? Its just like Force Ligtning other than a change in color! Except it doesn't work a thing like FLightning. erm

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The Reaper was designed by the ancient Sith, whom we all know are the progenitors of the technique used by Nihilus and Kreia. Avellone indicates that the only reason preventing the ancient Sith from utilizing the technique was their fear that they would ultimately surrender their identities to it, as Nihilus eventually does; imbuing artifacts like Ragnos's scepter and the Force Harvester with such power solves that problem: By making use of the artifacts, they are free to unleash the power of that unholy technique without losing their personalities in the process. The nature and effect of both drains is demonstrably the same; both drain the Force, drain life essences, can destroy the surrounding environment, and both drains use that siphoned energy to empower the user.

Speculation, albeit intelligent and logical, will not win you this debate I'm afraid. I've already dealt with issues to do with the 'similarities' that you see.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Here, Ulic says that he can make Anakin immune to the Dark Reaper's effect -- which I have demonstrated to be the same effect as the Force drain used by Nihilus and Kreia. Perhaps if their drain effected something other than the Force or life essences, I could understand your protests, but ultimately that is what it robs from the victim.

Firstly, you say that it protects them from the effects of the Dark Reaper but not how it actually does this. How does he do this? How fast does he do this? Is it feasible for Vader to be able to do it before he gets hit by the technique? If not, can he do it while being severed from the Force? Or after he's been severed from the Force? Hell, your own quotes make it seem like you use it to prevent youself from being drained of the Force, not from being severed. If all it can do is stop you from being drained, then it can do jack diddly about you being severed.

Then why was the technique that Ulic used to defend himself from it not used or mentioned by Kreia? She was around at the time Ulic discovered it and as a Jedi Historian she would obviously know about it. Plus out of universe The Clone Wars game came out before Kotor 2 so its not as if the defence didn't exist at that time Kreai said that there was no defence.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I stand by my assessment: the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that these powers are one in the same and, even if there is a presence of a Force bond in the maneuvers utilized by Kreia and Nihilus (of which there is no evidence for their many victims), the effect is ultimately the same and that is what Anakin/Vader can resist.

nah u suck

Turr_Phennir
Because she didn't know of it?





You haven't the means by which to assert what Kreia definitively would or would not know. That she was a mildly intelligent and well informed historian does not, by any means, make her omniscient.



Again, this asserts that Kreia would certainly have known, which is silly. Is it possible that she would have been in a position to know? Absolutely. Likely, even? Perhaps. But definitively? Not at all.



no expression

I guess you'd better tell Plo Koon and the Jedi Masters of The Essential Guide to the Force that, because Koon's personal account of his first use of the so-called 'electric judgment' technique is detailed in that book under the description of "Force lightning." (See page 85 for the two page entry.) erm





In the interest of brevity, I've compiled as many of the relevant, authoritative quotes as I can, many of them from out-of-universe material:















I'm not going to bother pointing out the obscenely obvious symmetry of these many statements. With the exception of Kreia's flowery, inconsistent explanations (one of her statements, for example, says that the technique drains connections in the Force and another statement says, as you point out, that it feeds on the death caused by a life being severed from the Force), they all fit perfectly.

If you feel inclined to disregard all of this evidence, most of which is from out-of-universe sources, and the summation of my deduction here:



...In favor of a single woman whose knowledge of the Force was neither complete nor perfect, a woman who is subject to the many weaknesses that plague most mortals (chief among them, for the purposes of this discussion, inconsistency), feel free. I'm actually not at this point out to convince you of anything; I know perfectly well where you'll stand when the dust clears regardless of the nature of this discussion and I'm okay with that.

All I've sought to do is satisfy the demands of my argument by compiling sufficient evidence and I've done so. Do with it what you will, but I'm siding with all the sources that indicate that these techniques are the same.

Stealth Moose
Kreia wins.

/thread.

Nephthys
You missed out my other two posts.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kreia wins.

/thread.


No. She dies somewhere in this gauntlet.

Nephthys
Who could kill her?

Korto Vos
It's very possible that Grievous and 3 Magna-Guards could kill her.

Nephthys
I doubt it. She was able to kill 6 assassins just by walking past them. Killing Grievous and co would be child's play.

Korto Vos
How is Grievous and 3 Magna-Guards child's play? You have to be kidding me..

Nephthys
Do I look like I'm kidding. no expression

Korto Vos
Since you aren't kidding......Kreia dies.

Nephthys
Meow.

Korto Vos
Oh yeah, Vader > Kreia. stick out tongue

Nephthys
Hiiiiiiiiissssssss!

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Because she didn't know of it?





You haven't the means by which to assert what Kreia definitively would or would not know. That she was a mildly intelligent and well informed historian does not, by any means, make her omniscient.

Nice using my own words against me, but that wasn't speculation, thats fact. She was in the goddamn order and her freaking job was recording events. There was no way she missed that. I actually dealt with your points. You just said 'naw, she's a blind retard with her head in the sand despite being one of the most knowledgable and deeply immersed in lore people in the mythos.' Ha, no.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
no expression

I guess you'd better tell Plo Koon and the Jedi Masters of The Essential Guide to the Force that, because Koon's personal account of his first use of the so-called 'electric judgment' technique is detailed in that book under the description of "Force lightning." (See page 85 for the two page entry.) erm


And yet it doesn't have the same effect (which I'll remind you is what we are ultimately talking about here) as Force Lightning at all. Jacen says very clearly that it does not kill, but that it saps an opponents strength and willpower.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
In the interest of brevity, I've compiled as many of the relevant, authoritative quotes as I can, many of them from out-of-universe material:

Er, no. Could you actually respond to my points rather than just brush them off like a douchebag please. If you can. erm



Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I'm not going to bother pointing out the obscenely obvious symmetry of these many statements. With the exception of Kreia's flowery, inconsistent explanations (one of her statements, for example, says that the technique drains connections in the Force and another statement says, as you point out, that it feeds on the death caused by a life being severed from the Force), they all fit perfectly.

Ok, so because it involves draining life-force its ooooooobviously the same technique. Even though it doesn't work the same way, it isn't used the same way, it has different effects and it doesn't have the same end effect?

Those two statements aren't contradictions at all. Yeah, it involves draining the lifeforce/Force from the target, but as we can see from Kreia explict description of the technique, it severs the target from the Force and then drains them. Can Ulic's thing defend against that? Can it?

Out of curiousity, do you think Exar Kuns final ritual is the same technique?




Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If you feel inclined to disregard all of this evidence, most of which is from out-of-universe sources, and the summation of my deduction here:



...In favor of a single woman whose knowledge of the Force was neither complete nor perfect, a woman who is subject to the many weaknesses that plague most mortals (chief among them, for the purposes of this discussion, inconsistency), feel free.

Wait, you actually put yourself before Kreia? haermm

Please, the 'Kreia is stoopid' argument isn't credible to me anymore. Try something less tdtd.

Nephthys
u suck kreia win nyan

Turr_Phennir
To be honest, I stopped reading after the first paragraph of your rebuttal.





And I'm not quite sure how you got this:



From this:



But I'm not interested in talking about this with someone who conjures facts ex nihilo and relies on dishonesty to further his arguments and I'm not going to ask you for the zillionth time to remain civil. I stand by argument and we can agree to disagree.

Nephthys
So I take it you're not going to respond to my other two posts either.

Its just that I spent a good hour or two on them and I'd appreciate it if you actually acknowledged that I even wrote them.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Nephthys
So I take it you're not going to respond to my other two posts either.

Nope. You can't seem to make up your mind how you want to argue these sorts of things with me. On the one hand, you all but beg for mercy when I ream your ass with the unstoppable series of jabs and cuts, but when I agree to keep things civil, you (by your own admission) act like a dick.

I'm not interested in hypocritical pussy bullshit and this discussion reeks of it.

Nephthys
This would be the time when I fold my hands under my armpits and swing them around while clucking.

Turr_Phennir
If the goal is that each new level is one of increased difficulty, this list is out of order. In the CW3D series, Fisto dominated the general in single combat and Ki-Adi Mundi outperformed Obi-Wan and Anakin during their siege of Geonosis (which, while it doesn't definitively place Mundi higher in the pecking order, does indicate that he's on par with the two). So the presence of Shaak Ti, who is a heavyweight duelist who gave Starkiller trouble, would convince me that this trio outclasses ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, unless this is Anakin under his nom de guerre of Zonakin.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If the goal is that each new level is one of increased difficulty, this list is out of order. In the CW3D series, Fisto dominated the general in single combat and Ki-Adi Mundi outperformed Obi-Wan and Anakin during their siege of Geonosis (which, while it doesn't definitively place Mundi higher in the pecking order, does indicate that he's on par with the two). So the presence of Shaak Ti, who is a heavyweight duelist who gave Starkiller trouble, would convince me that this trio outclasses ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, unless this is Anakin under his nom de guerre of Zonakin.

1. Hmm, Grievous fought off Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Tarr Seirr, and K'kruhk at the Battle of Hypori.

Fisto didn't dominate Grievous; I saw him being slightly lucky and Grievous caught a bit off guard. In any case, it's very possible that the cyborg would have won that contest if his Magna-Guards weren't present.

It's relatively close....which is why one is right above the other. I see what you are saying, though.

2. Yes, Anakin can digi-evolve to Zonakin, if necessary.

ares834
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Ki-Adi Mundi outperformed Obi-Wan and Anakin during their siege of Geonosis (which, while it doesn't definitively place Mundi higher in the pecking order, does indicate that he's on par with the two).

I disagree with this completley. Ki-Adi Mundi could have simply had more enemies to kill not to mention those tight caves would be a great benefit for a lightsaber weilder. Furthermore, Ashoka also out does Anakin... But I doubt she is comparable to him in combat.

Turr_Phennir
KV
1. Hmm, Grievous fought off Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Tarr Seirr, and K'kruhk at the Battle of Hypori.

Much as I wish it weren't so, this incarnation of General Grievous conflicts greatly with the one that we see in the T-canon 3D series. The directing and writing staff have made it abundantly clear through his subsequent performances and commentary that the general is not nearly as deadly as pre-2008 EU made him out to be.

KV
Fisto didn't dominate Grievous; I saw him being slightly lucky and Grievous caught a bit off guard. In any case, it's very possible that the cyborg would have won that contest if his Magna-Guards weren't present.

The duel depicted within the episode doesn't match your interpretation of it. Fisto disarms Grievous, knocks him on his ass, and relentlessly drives him back until his MagnaGuards arrive. Fisto and Fisto alone had the upper hand during that duel, and while it is possible that the general might have won, it is unlikely.

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by ares834
I disagree with this completley. Ki-Adi Mundi could have simply had more enemies to kill not to mention those tight caves would be a great benefit for a lightsaber weilder. Furthermore, Ashoka also out does Anakin... But I doubt she is comparable to him in combat.

That's true, good point.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Much as I wish it weren't so, this incarnation of General Grievous conflicts greatly with the one that we see in the T-canon 3D series. The directing and writing staff have made it abundantly clear through his subsequent performances and commentary that the general is not nearly as deadly as pre-2008 EU made him out to be.

Still, the older series is also T-canon, and Grievous does canonically fight off Mundi, Ti, K'kruhk, and Teirr simultaneously.





I'm not taking anything from Fisto, but it's possible Grievous, with the way he manages to recover, to have regained the advantage.

Turr_Phennir
KV
Still, the older series is also T-canon,

According to Leland Chee, arbiter of continuity, this is not the case.



KV
I'm not taking anything from Fisto, but it's possible Grievous, with the way he manages to recover, to have regained the advantage.

Possible, but again, unlikely. The battle wasn't especially close; Fisto was more skilled and more dominant despite Grievous's apparent physical advantages and greater number of lightsabers.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
According to Leland Chee, arbiter of continuity, this is not the case.





Possible, but again, unlikely. The battle wasn't especially close; Fisto was more skilled and more dominant despite Grievous's apparent physical advantages and greater number of lightsabers.

Yet, it isn't non-canon. Unless you can find other evidence, Grievous did fight and more or less beat those 4 Jedi at Hypori.

Fisto did push back Grievous, but I can't imagine him finishing off the cyborg after he had on the ground.

Turr_Phennir
KV
Yet, it isn't non-canon.

This is what is referred to as a backhanded concession and this isn't the first you've made in this discussion. Let's be genuine here; when the opposition makes a valid point, as ares did earlier, be courteous enough to acknowledge it as I did earlier.

KV
Unless you can find other evidence, Grievous did fight and more or less beat those 4 Jedi at Hypori.



This isn't merely an issue of feats of one medium conflicting with those of another; those are easy to work out. But from the Episode III commentary on out, Lucas made it abundantly clear that General Grievous was never intended to be an all-powerful killing machine, and more akin to a moderately talented coward. But more importantly, this has left the murky depths of Lucas's fickle mind and has been made manifest in the new series by way of Filoni and the writers.



I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said earlier of the fight. That Fisto didn't finish Grievous off does not contradict the fact that he was dominating the general and that he had the upper hand throughout the engagement until the MagnaGuards arrived.

Turr_Phennir
On the subject of the order, I believe this is slightly more accurate:


Ventress
Grievous & 3 MagnaGuards
Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi & Shaak Ti
Dooku/Malak
Dooku/Malak
Vader
Anakin & Obi-Wan


I'm very torn on the placement of Malak and Dooku. mmm

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