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Captain America (The First Avenger)
http://s4.daemonsmovies.com/mov/up/2011/02/Captain-America-The-First-Avenger-movie-poster-01-thumb.jpg

vs.

Marv (Sin City)
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/films/sincity/sincity_marv_dontworry_large.jpg


Round 1: Strength Test.
Arm Wrestling Match

Round 2: Durability Test.
Both get strapped to a chair and Ozymandias beats the crap out of them. They don't fight back. Who breaks first?

Round 3: Unarmed Fight.
Fight in the middle of the street, no weapons and no shield.

Who wins each round?

1. Cap
2. Marv
3. Cap maybe im not sure

Originally posted by thanos-prime
1. Cap
2. Marv
3. Cap maybe im not sure

Yeah.

I haven't seen The First Avenger yet. What's Caps best strength and durability feat?

I have hard time to believe that he is even more durable than Marv.

Marv's likely stronger, but I doubt by much.

Originally posted by Robtard
Marv's likely stronger, but I doubt by much. Why do you think so? Cap had some pretty good strength feats.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
Why do you think so? Cap had some pretty good strength feats.

Cap - bent metal railing, jumped a large chasm and matched strength with Red Skull (shoved that large stone cover aside like it was nothing).

Marv - pushed a guy's head into a break wall, smashed through a door with enough force it sent 4-5 men flying.

All in all, Marv's seemed to be higher, though as I said, I doubt by a whole lot.

Originally posted by Robtard
Cap - bent metal railing, jumped a large chasm and matched strength with Red Skull (shoved that large stone cover aside like it was nothing).

Marv - pushed a guy's head into a break wall, smashed through a door with enough force it sent 4-5 men flying.

All in all, Marv's seemed to be higher, though as I said, I doubt by a whole lot. Cap also lifted a motorcycle with 3 women on top with little to no effort.

Good call, forgot about that one. Still the 'sending guys flying' likely take more strength than lifting half a ton or so.

I think Captain America wins in all situations. However, Marv is just simply cooler.

Originally posted by Robtard
Good call, forgot about that one. Still the 'sending guys flying' likely take more strength than lifting half a ton or so. Maybe if he was struggling with all his might to do it but lifting that weight casually is better imo.

Originally posted by Myth
I think Captain America wins in all situations. However, Marv is just simply cooler. i think he would win strength and the fight but not durability marv can take one hell of a beating.

Originally posted by Robtard
Good call, forgot about that one. Still the 'sending guys flying' likely take more strength than lifting half a ton or so. I'm pretty sure Cap lifted the motorcycle with one hand.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I'm pretty sure Cap lifted the motorcycle with one hand.

Nah it was 2. He also casually threw men into the sky.

Rogers x 3

Nawwww.

Marv ripped bars from the foundation of a house imo a match for anything Cap did strength wise.

Cap punched through a submarine window. Casually tossed people in armor up in the air.

If you ask me, I think Marv is naturally stronger but Cap is more powerful. In a fighting context (or even arm wrestling), Cap will win.

Marv is more durable though. Best durability feat I have for Cap is him jumping out of that elevator and surviving the fall even if he did land on his shield.

He jumped from cloud level to the ocean and was fine. He should have been pulverized on impact.

He also fell a few hundred feet from one Hellicarrier to another, and tucked in a combat roll, then jumped right back up.

All true. But he doesn't seem to handle gunshots as well as Marv.

True. But he outclasses him everywhere else so that's a bit of a moot point.

Originally posted by KingD19
True. But he outclasses him everywhere else so that's a bit of a moot point.

Agreed. That's why Cap wins in all scenarios except the 2nd.

Based on these scenarios Cap wins every one. The closet probably being durability because Marv can take a bullet to the head but Cap can tank some big blunt force trauma.

i think cap is stronger.. think

Marv takes round 2 (the guy was laughing when shocked multiple times by the god damn electric chair and wouldn't sign the papers until his mother was threatened and he knew that the cops could get to her)

round 3, marv may or may not be stronger but he is durable as ****, seriously he doesn't get put down and cap loses

Originally posted by Newjak
Based on these scenarios Cap wins every one. The closet probably being durability because Marv can take a bullet to the head but Cap can tank some big blunt force trauma.

With WS and AOU, there's no doubt Cap > Marv in strength and generally all around.

Originally posted by Genesis-Soldier
i think cap is stronger.. think

Marv takes round 2 (the guy was laughing when shocked multiple times by the god damn electric chair and wouldn't sign the papers until his mother was threatened and he knew that the cops could get to her)

round 3, marv may or may not be stronger but he is durable as ****, seriously he doesn't get put down and cap loses

How would Cap lose the fight? He is more agile, stronger, faster and far more skilled.

Originally posted by Genesis-Soldier
Marv takes round 2 (the guy was laughing when shocked multiple times by the god damn electric chair and wouldn't sign the papers until his mother was threatened and he knew that the cops could get to her)


Closets thing I can think of in regards to energy based attacks to Cap was in Avengers when he took a Chitauri rifle blast to the abdomen and while it phased him some, he got up and continued to kick ass.

Cap also took those Shield stun batons.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Cap punched through a submarine window. Casually tossed people in armor up in the air.

If you ask me, I think Marv is naturally stronger but Cap is more powerful. In a fighting context (or even arm wrestling), Cap will win.

Marv is more durable though. Best durability feat I have for Cap is him jumping out of that elevator and surviving the fall even if he did land on his shield. He took a hit in the chest from a Chitauri blaster.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He took a hit in the chest from a Chitauri blaster. And Marv got shot in the head, run over, then beaten by a group of prostitutes.

People forget that Marv's story happened within the span ot a night.

Kevin kills both

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Kevin kills both Except Marv beat Kevin down with a single punch.

They would both would heal from Kevin both are smart enough to win.

Cap is just plain faster than Kevin.

Cap tanked Thor's hammer with his shield. You're telling me you think Marv survives that in the same position? Unobtanium or no, the force still gets translated down into the body, and no way Marv rides that kind of punishment out. Cap is more durable all day, everyday.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Cap tanked Thor's hammer with his shield. You're telling me you think Marv survives that in the same position? Unobtanium or no, the force still gets translated down into the body, and no way Marv rides that kind of punishment out. Cap is more durable all day, everyday.


Only the shield endured hits from Mjolnir. The Vibranium it's built with does wonders for negating and redistributing energy. You could give anybody that shield, and they'd tank the hit exactly the same. That's why in Age of Ultron, Thor smacked the shield with Mjolnir and made an energy shockwave.

I can see Marv tanking the chitauri blast. I can't see Cap tanking the same shots Marv went thru

Apparently Cap's metabolism is fast enough to include a healing factor. He got shot 3 times with an assault rifle in Winter Soldier, and no mention is made in Ultron. So he seemed to have just healed being shot.

Cap takes all 3 of these contests. Especially after WS, and even more after Civil War.

Cap will win the first and third handily. However the durability much depend on what kinda punishment they are to endure. It could imo go either way.

It's Ozy just beating on them. And Cap has taken far more blunt force trauma than Marv.

Cap with stood a shield protected RPG knocking of a bridge into a bus. He withstood a shielded fall from 100 or 200 feet. Marv hit by car, bullets, being pistol whipped, one electric chair shot. It will come down to skill and speed which is in Caps favor.

Originally posted by KingD19
Apparently Cap's metabolism is fast enough to include a healing factor. He got shot 3 times with an assault rifle in Winter Soldier, and no mention is made in Ultron. So he seemed to have just healed being shot.

Cap takes all 3 of these contests. Especially after WS, and even more after Civil War.

Sure he healed from the gunshots. But they hurt him bad.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Sure he healed from the gunshots. But they hurt him bad.


My point is that Cap can tank most things, and heal what he can't tank.

He's more durable than Marv in pretty much every area. Was Marv ever shot with high grade assault rifle rounds?

And in the 3 matches Armwrestling, getting wailed on by Ozy, and a slugfest, Cap should easily take all 3.

He's stronger than Marv by a good deal. He's tougher. ANd he's a better fighter, faster, etc...

Marv I am pretty sure after awhile healed from stuff and do you really think he could take the electric chair even once I would have to see it to believe it. Strength to close to call.

Originally posted by golem370
Marv I am pretty sure after awhile healed from stuff and do you really think he could take the electric chair even once I would have to see it to believe it. Strength to close to call.



I absolutely think Cap could tank the electric chair. He tanked those stun rods easy enough. It annoyed him but did nothing to stop him.


How is strength too close to call? In the first movie his almost equal Red Skull was denting steel, Cap punched through reinforced sub glass, held up a motorcycle with 3 women on it with ease. He lifted what was easily a multi-ton girder off Bucky, held up a car in Ultron, etc...

Marv's strength is good, but not in the same class as Cap.

The only thing that can be argued is durability and even then Cap has far far better feats in regards to blunt and energy attacks.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The only thing that can be argued is durability and even then Cap has far far better feats in regards to blunt and energy attacks.


What are Cap's best blunt trauma feats that DON'T involve his shield?

Originally posted by FrothByte
What are Cap's best blunt trauma feats that DON'T involve his shield?


Falling from above cloud level to the ocean. Impact normally would have turned him into paste, but he just dives right in. One of the soldiers even asks if he just jumped with no parachute, and Rumlow is like, "Yeeeah. He does that all the time."

He jumped and fell from one Hellicarrier to another a few hundred feet down. Rolled right back up to his feet.

He took a full on hit from Quicksilver that spun him a good ways into the air; he wasn't even hurt, just surprised.

He got his face pounded by Bucky's robot arm which was strong enough to rip out a steering column, catch his shield thrown at full strength, and destroy concrete. Bucky got a bunch of free shots from a great position; barely even split Cap's nose.

He tanked hits from Loki, Ultron 2.0 or 3.0(upgraded), Red Skull, and Bucky. Two are in his own range, while Loki and Ultron above him. Nothing slowed him down.

He got exploded on that bus, and was just fine.

Bucky also has Cap level strength to go with that arm.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What are Cap's best blunt trauma feats that DON'T involve his shield?

King already beat me to it, can you name any blunt trauma that Marv withstood that is even 1/5th as impressive as Cap's best?

tank the first chain shot is as hardcore as anything Cap did durability wise the baton did hurt him just not enough to stop him.

Didn't Cap tank a blast from the Hydra gun, the gun that was disintegrating people?

Originally posted by Mindset
Didn't Cap tank a blast from the Hydra gun, the gun that was disintegrating people?

I'm pretty sure it was the guns from the Chitauri sleds that were disintegrating people and Cap didn't tank that. Cap also got pretty hurt by a single gunshot to the side.

Yet he was less hurt by the list of things king mentioned, all of which deal far more damage than a bullet.

interesting that this thread is still going but now I see why

Originally posted by Silent Master
Yet he was less hurt by the list of things king mentioned, all of which deal far more damage than a bullet.

Not quite.

1. Diving into water from aircraft - we need to quantify just how high the jump was. World record for highest dive is around 200 ft. if I'm not mistaken, so it's not impossible to do this. Plus, these divers jumped into a stagnant pool of water. Cap jumped into the ocean, and waves help a lot in breaking water tension. If we can get an estimate of how high Cap dove from then we can clarify just how good a durability feat this was.

2. Jumping from one Hellicarrier to another - I'll have to review this. Was this from TWS? Anyway, will get back to you once I've rewatched.

3. Getting hit by Quicksilver - Hawkeye got hit by Quicksilver just a few seconds before Cap and Hawkeye wasn't seriously hurt either. So this isn't exactly a good durability feat for Cap

4. Took hits from Loki - IIRC he only took 1 direct shot from Loki (please correct me if I'm wrong) and that hit threw him back several feet and it clearly hurt him. He didn't exactly tank the hit. Sure, Loki was stronger than anyone Marv has faced, but I doubt Cap can take multiple hits from Loki.

6. Took hits from Bucky's robotic arm - as far as I'm concerned, this is the best durability feat from Cap yet. He took numerous hits from that hand and didn't even suffer a broken nose. Of course, he was completely out of it by the end. But yeah, I'll agree this was a great durability feat that Marv doesn't have anything against.

But what Marv has is better durability regarding gun wounds. And I just love it how everyone keeps trying to avoid this topic, even in the Cap vs. Slade discussions.

Then again, the durability test does say it's just Ozy with his hands so I guess guns aren't in the equation.

There are no guns in this thread, so Cap's far superior blunt damage feats matter more.

Originally posted by Silent Master
There are no guns in this thread, so Cap's far superior blunt damage feats matter more.

I'm pretty sure Marv has some pretty good blunt durability feats as well but my memory is somewhat rusty with Sin City movies. For now I'll concede to your argument till I can rewatch Sin City.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm pretty sure it was the guns from the Chitauri sleds that were disintegrating people and Cap didn't tank that. Cap also got pretty hurt by a single gunshot to the side. The Chitauri didn't have guns that disintegrated people.

That was Hydra.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Not quite.

1. Diving into water from aircraft - we need to quantify just how high the jump was. World record for highest dive is around 200 ft. if I'm not mistaken, so it's not impossible to do this. Plus, these divers jumped into a stagnant pool of water. Cap jumped into the ocean, and waves help a lot in breaking water tension. If we can get an estimate of how high Cap dove from then we can clarify just how good a durability feat this was.

ORJAE3pVOMY

When he jumped they were in cloud cover. So they had to be pretty high. Far higher than the 200ft record. And that one soldier was very concerned because he realized Cap didn't have a chute. He wouldn't be worried unless they were at a sufficient distance that without a chute, injury or death was going to happen. Rumlow who worked with him all the time though was fine with it because Cap seems to do that alot.

Originally posted by FrothByte
2. Jumping from one Hellicarrier to another - I'll have to review this. Was this from TWS? Anyway, will get back to you once I've rewatched.

a7TmBfi9_E8

There you go. Hops off one and falls right down to the other, several hundred feet give or take a foot or two.

Originally posted by FrothByte
3. Getting hit by Quicksilver - Hawkeye got hit by Quicksilver just a few seconds before Cap and Hawkeye wasn't seriously hurt either. So this isn't exactly a good durability feat for Cap

vvMJs3GjTls


I used the wrong scene. The one I meant is when they were fighting on the oil tanker and Pietro bumrushed Cap hard enough to send him flying and into a wall. From the looks of it, he hit him at high speed and carried him a bit before launching him. That was the same move he was using to one-shot Ultron drones. Start at 35 seconds

Originally posted by FrothByte
4. Took hits from Loki - IIRC he only took 1 direct shot from Loki (please correct me if I'm wrong) and that hit threw him back several feet and it clearly hurt him. He didn't exactly tank the hit. Sure, Loki was stronger than anyone Marv has faced, but I doubt Cap can take multiple hits from Loki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq88OfYENEk
Fight starts at around 2:18. He takes 2 full on staff swipes, and a toss, and was going to get back up but Tony arrived.

Originally posted by FrothByte
6. Took hits from Bucky's robotic arm - as far as I'm concerned, this is the best durability feat from Cap yet. He took numerous hits from that hand and didn't even suffer a broken nose. Of course, he was completely out of it by the end. But yeah, I'll agree this was a great durability feat that Marv doesn't have anything against.

But what Marv has is better durability regarding gun wounds. And I just love it how everyone keeps trying to avoid this topic, even in the Cap vs. Slade discussions.

Then again, the durability test does say it's just Ozy with his hands so I guess guns aren't in the equation.

He took the hits from Bucky like a champ, and was at most dazed from them as he told Bucky he wasn't going to fight him, and to just finish him off since he wasn't going to fight his friend.

He also took repeated hits from Ultron, who at that point had upgraded beyond the form where he was fighting Iron Man and winning for the most part. He complained but never slowed down.

/thread

Cap's fight against Ultron is probably his best overall showing IMO. But I wouldn't go so far as to saying that the previous Ultron was winning against Tony though. He caught him off guard with that magnetic field thing, but IM recovered quickly and Ultron fled the moment he knew he was outclassed. And that fight ended with Tony's armour having mostly nicks and scratches and Ultron being utterly demolished. Hell, Tony still hopped inside Veronica while wearing his normal suit and fought an enraged Hulk right after that.

arm wrestling and durability marv takes this

Cap solo's round 3

and to who ever said cap easily took off the girder around winter soldier is bullshitting because he struggled so hard to lift that thing 3 inches.

LOL!!!

Cap didn't lift it "easily" but he did lift it a hell of a lot more than 3 inches. And that was mostly with one arm actually, while also carrying his shield, after suffering multiple gunshot wounds. And he has also held the weight of a car being pulled over a ledge by gravity, without anything to brace his feet against for leverage, or to help prevent the larger, MUCH heavier, object from yanking him off after it. He did it all through pure muscle.

I don't personally feel Marv has done anything that puts him above Cap's level of strength. Only things Marv has a better show of tanking are bullets, and there are no bullets in this match. Cap has taken better hits from tougher people than Marv has. Cap has taken punches from Ultron and WS's metal arm, various energy blasts, from repulsors to Chitauri blasters, and none of it did any serious damage to him. What does Marv have to compare?

Cap wins all three rounds.

This is first Avenger Cap... I see people posting feats for Cap other than his FA feats.

Ok fine. I'm now convinced that Cap wins the durability round as well.

Though I do have to say I still hate it whenever people think Cap "tanked" that Chitauri blast. It was a grazing hit and it did hurt him quite a bit.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is first Avenger Cap... I see people posting feats for Cap other than his FA feats.

Look at the OP date. Besides, Cap is still Cap. He received the super soldier serum during the first film and never received any other amps that we know of. All we know is that he greatly expands his skill level and pushes his limits more, but we have no reason to believe that he somehow got more amped and those limits just expanded. Also, getting a lot more screen time as he appears in more films means more, and more versatile, feats. But ultimately still the same super soldier doing them. Can you prove Cap from TFA couldn't take those hits from Bucky like he did in TWS?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok fine. I'm now convinced that Cap wins the durability round as well.

Though I do have to say I still hate it whenever people think Cap "tanked" that Chitauri blast. It was a grazing hit and it did hurt him quite a bit.


It wasn't a grazing hit. It slammed into him dead on and hit him so hard it knocked him off his feet and to the ground, and it burned clean through his uniform which as we see isn't even bulletproof. So that was all him. It took him maybe 10 seconds to get back up, and then he went right back to fighting.

ANd like Vault said, Cap's simply had more time to show off with more movies. For example. He lifted a motorcycle with 3 women on it in his first movie. He chucks a motorcycle in AoU, makes sense.

Originally posted by KingD19
It wasn't a grazing hit. It slammed into him dead on and hit him so hard it knocked him off his feet and to the ground, and it burned clean through his uniform which as we see isn't even bulletproof. So that was all him. It took him maybe 10 seconds to get back up, and then he went right back to fighting.

ANd like Vault said, Cap's simply had more time to show off with more movies. For example. He lifted a motorcycle with 3 women on it in his first movie. He chucks a motorcycle in AoU, makes sense.

Guess we have different definitions of what "dead on" means. You can clearly see from the wound that it hit him in his side. To me that's a grazing hit but maybe that's just my vocabulary.

But even if we do consider it a direct hit, he sure as hell didn't tank that shot. He didn't "just get up". He was down and unable to protect himself. If it wasn't for Thor blocking hits and taking out Chitauri Cap would have gotten bombarded with blasts. If this was a boxing or UFC match that would have been a TKO. He also needed help from Thor to get back up.

Sure he continued fighting later on, most people with injuries can keep fighting... usually due to heart and will power. Cap's higher stats definitely helped as well, but let's not pretend that he just tanked that hit. Again if it wasn't for Thor, that hit would have done him in.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Look at the OP date. Besides, Cap is still Cap. He received the super soldier serum during the first film and never received any other amps that we know of. All we know is that he greatly expands his skill level and pushes his limits more, but we have no reason to believe that he somehow got more amped and those limits just expanded. Also, getting a lot more screen time as he appears in more films means more, and more versatile, feats. But ultimately still the same super soldier doing them. Can you prove Cap from TFA couldn't take those hits from Bucky like he did in TWS?

I don't need to prove a negative, especially when it has nothing to do with the thread. You know how things work around here TVD, so please stop acting like you don't. I don't care if you believe Cap is the same and can do the same things or not, in fact, I don't care what I believe on the subject. This thread is taking ONLY his feats from the FA into play. It's that simple. It makes no difference whether you believe he could do this or that from other movies, this is FA Cap vs. Marv... period.

The thread doesn't state only feats from FA, therefore all his feats are allowed.

Yes he did, he stated this is CAP from the FA.. than means only those feats. If he never specified the movie, than you'd have a point. Only he did, thus your point is crushed. That's the whole point, if you specify WHICH Cap you're using than only those feats matter. Period, end of story

The thread was started in 2011, when the only Cap movie was FA. he wasn't restricting the thread to only FA feats, he was just naming the movie the character appeared in.

He's got you there.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The thread was started in 2011, when the only Cap movie was FA. he wasn't restricting the thread to only FA feats, he was just naming the movie the character appeared in.

Irrelevant to the discussion. Neither you nor I have any idea what his intent was or wasn't. It makes zero difference when the thread was made. He was using THAT Cap vs. Marv. Period, end of story. It doesn't matter that this was the only movie at the time. He specified which Cap, and that ends the discussion. If you have the OP come back here and state he now wants all cap movies to count, cool, until then we'll go with what he specified.

Originally posted by KingD19
He's got you there.

Negative. The argument isn't even close.

Seeing as it was 2011 and FA was the only movie that existed, why exactly do you think his intent was to excluded feats from the Avengers, TWS and AOU. rather than just naming the movie where Cap appeared?

Seriously? We didn't know his intent? He intended to use Captain America and Marv. Both men with only a single movie to their names at the time the thread was made. What other intent could he have had?

He didn't specify which Cap. He pointed out the movie he was from in the OP.

That's precisely the point. Neither you nor I have any idea if he wanted all of Cap's feats to count. He saw FA and thought it would be a good fight... That CAP with THOSE SPECIFIC FEATS vs. Marv. PERIOD. Characters can change and grow in power ALL THE TIME. Are you new to movies or something. He thought that Cap from THAT movie would be a good match. Maybe he would think that using Cap's later feats wouldn't be such a good fight... That isn't possible. We can't speak for him. So in the interest of keeping what he originally intended this is all we can do. He specified which Cap, end of story.

Neither do you. And you say we can't speak for him, but that's exactly what you're doing, lol.

FA Cap is still better than Marv though, lol.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The thread was started in 2011, when the only Cap movie was FA. he wasn't restricting the thread to only FA feats, he was just naming the movie the character appeared in.

Huh, didn't expect this thread to be this old. But yeah, I think unless OP states otherwise it's safe to assume we're talking Captain America as he currently is.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't need to prove a negative, especially when it has nothing to do with the thread. You know how things work around here TVD, so please stop acting like you don't. I don't care if you believe Cap is the same and can do the same things or not, in fact, I don't care what I believe on the subject. This thread is taking ONLY his feats from the FA into play. It's that simple. It makes no difference whether you believe he could do this or that from other movies, this is FA Cap vs. Marv... period.

Normally no. But the Super Soldier serum took Cap from a 5'4" scrawny wimp, into a 6"+ being, who was boosted to the VERY PEAK of human capability. Meaning, from a physical standpoint, he is at the pinnacle. He can't get any better. So there is NO logic that backs up the idea that he magically just became more durable etc. as the movies passed, as opposed to simply getting more feats showing/pushing his abilities.

The no negative argument only works if the initial person had no evidence to back up their argument to begin with. If I post evidence to back my position that I think his durability is the same, then if you want to say otherwise, you have to prove it. And I DO say his durability is the same, based on what I stated in the previous paragraph and previous posts. So again, do you believe that Cap's face somehow magically just became significantly tougher in between TFA & TWS for no explainable reason?

Also, how does it NOT have anything to do with the thread? Are you joking? The second match is a pure durability contest where someone is wailing on them. Knowing their durability levels is the ONLY thing relevant to that specific match.

By your stubborn insistence on this, you are basically saying that you believe Cap's powers actually got amped during the films, as opposed to him simply improving in skill and finding his limits more. So which is it then? If you DO believe it, then the burden IS on you to prove it, considering we are told nothing of the sort on screen.

Otherwise, why complain so stubbornly about it?

As to the OP date, if you really want to go there, we can get a mod ruling on it. Also, seems hypocritcal of you to accuse others of interpreting/claiming to know what the OP meant, and then doing it yourself.

Marv wins. Very sleight edge.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Normally no. But the Super Soldier serum took Cap from a 5'4" scrawny wimp, into a 6"+ being, who was boosted to the VERY PEAK of human capability. Meaning, from a physical standpoint, he is at the pinnacle. He can't get any better. So there is NO logic that backs up the idea that he magically just became more durable etc. as the movies passed, as opposed to simply getting more feats showing/pushing his abilities.

The no negative argument only works if the initial person had no evidence to back up their argument to begin with. If I post evidence to back my position that I think his durability is the same, then if you want to say otherwise, you have to prove it. And I DO say his durability is the same, based on what I stated in the previous paragraph and previous posts. So again, do you believe that Cap's face somehow magically just became significantly tougher in between TFA & TWS for no explainable reason?

Also, how does it NOT have anything to do with the thread? Are you joking? The second match is a pure durability contest where someone is wailing on them. Knowing their durability levels is the ONLY thing relevant to that specific match.

By your stubborn insistence on this, you are basically saying that you believe Cap's powers actually got amped during the films, as opposed to him simply improving in skill and finding his limits more. So which is it then? If you DO believe it, then the burden IS on you to prove it, considering we are told nothing of the sort on screen.

Otherwise, why complain so stubbornly about it?

As to the OP date, if you really want to go there, we can get a mod ruling on it. Also, seems hypocritcal of you to accuse others of interpreting/claiming to know what the OP meant, and then doing it yourself.

I can't believe I have to explain things to somebody that has been around so long and knows better. I get the feeling you're just being obtuse and don't actually believe what you're saying.

Your premise is that he is the same person and thus he would never get any better. This couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, it's flat out wrong. Think about my boxing analogy or any combat sports analogy. Is Manny Pac of the Morales fight the same Manny Pac of the Hatton fight? Simple question. Of course he's not. He's the same person born with the same ability to get x amount of strong and x amount of fast. He's still Manny Pac, a human after all. However, anybody who knows about boxing knows that he improved over the subsequent years between those fights. People improve, people get better, people get more experience and abilities. It's one thing to be Neo and always have certain abilities than can be gained, but it's another to actually gain them. To even think Cap wouldn't get any better skill wise or learn new abilities to use or simply become more used to his "powers" and thus this opens the door to new abilities is simply ludicrous. He most certainly would. Which is the point... this is illustrated best using boxing analogies on vs. forums there.... If

I want a Manny Pac with a certain skill level... say against Morales... I think that's a good matchup for a Money May of the Castillo fight. Both kind of green, both would improve and get better. Which is exactly WHY I would specify which version I'm using or any OP is using. I have no issue if it just says Cap vs. Ozy... Cool all feats matter. But if the OP thinks Cap from FA and only THOSE feats would match up well with Ozy... then that is how it has to be. Are you really not seeing how this works? This is routine on this forum... are you honestly saying you've never seen people specify which version of a character we are using... and excluding there other feats. Are you honestly saying you've never seen this before?

The OP never said only feats from FA are allowed.

While I agree that Cap can indeed get better with time, not due to any increase in physical stats but simple skill improvement and experience gained, I don't see how any of this would be relevant unless OP SPECIFICALLY states that ONLY feats from The First Avenger are allowed.

Edit: Sorry, misread your post.

Originally posted by FrothByte
While I agree that Cap can indeed get better with time, not due to any increase in physical stats but simple skill improvement and experience gained, I don't see how any of this would be relevant unless OP SPECIFICALLY states that ONLY feats from The First Avenger are allowed.

He did specify.. In fact, it was without any ambiguity. He said FA Cap... he didn't just say Cap. It's really THAT simple. You guys are extrapolating that ohhh it was the only movie made then.. ohh he likely meant for all his feats to be included. Sorry, please show where he said that or where he's now saying that. If not, I'll just go ahead with what he originally intended... thanks.

BTW Frost, you're absolutely correct people can get better and more used to their abilities. Which is the point. Same character, but there can be improvements and experience gained where an old version without that is a better match up for fighter B.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't believe I have to explain things to somebody that has been around so long and knows better. I get the feeling you're just being obtuse and don't actually believe what you're saying.

Your premise is that he is the same person and thus he would never get any better. This couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, it's flat out wrong. Think about my boxing analogy or any combat sports analogy. Is Manny Pac of the Morales fight the same Manny Pac of the Hatton fight? Simple question. Of course he's not. He's the same person born with the same ability to get x amount of strong and x amount of fast. He's still Manny Pac, a human after all. However, anybody who knows about boxing knows that he improved over the subsequent years between those fights. People improve, people get better, people get more experience and abilities. It's one thing to be Neo and always have certain abilities than can be gained, but it's another to actually gain them. To even think Cap wouldn't get any better skill wise or learn new abilities to use or simply become more used to his "powers" and thus this opens the door to new abilities is simply ludicrous. He most certainly would. Which is the point... this is illustrated best using boxing analogies on vs. forums there.... If

I want a Manny Pac with a certain skill level... say against Morales... I think that's a good matchup for a Money May of the Castillo fight. Both kind of green, both would improve and get better. Which is exactly WHY I would specify which version I'm using or any OP is using. I have no issue if it just says Cap vs. Ozy... Cool all feats matter. But if the OP thinks Cap from FA and only THOSE feats would match up well with Ozy... then that is how it has to be. Are you really not seeing how this works? This is routine on this forum... are you honestly saying you've never seen people specify which version of a character we are using... and excluding there other feats. Are you honestly saying you've never seen this before?

So again you are back to ignoring parts of my post and misreading others? I specifically said in multiple posts that he DID increase in skill and learn about his abilities more. And you did not address the fact that he was amped to full potential in the very first film, so from a pure physical statistics standpoint, he has been the same throughout. The boxing analogy is dumb, because I NEVER ONCE SAID that Captain America has not increased in skill or gotten a better handle on his powers. In fact, that has been my whole argument. His progression in feats is the result of improving his skills and getting used to his abilities, without them gaining further enhancements like more SS serum. The Neo argument is also dumb, because the extra powers he gained as the one required extra training and experience to unlock/harness. The SS serum didn't teach Cap how to use his arms, legs etc. (he already has normal motor function), and it didn't create some hidden reservoir of superpower, like he is Gohan from Dragon Ball or something. It boosted him from scrawny wimp to the pinnacle of humanity in one go. But I have mentioned this before, which you seemingly ignored. My argument has been that Steve's physical statistics have not increased (because he has been peak from the get go), simply explored, coupled with an increase in skill level. Seriously, do you skim read before replying?

Except he never specifically excluded other feats. I see nowhere where it says "Feats from TFA only". What I see is a thread made when there was only one film for that specific incarnation of Cap out, but multiple movie versions of Cap around by that point already (including animated versions), so the OP mentioned the film to specify from which film universe he is. And that is how pretty much everyone else here sees it. You are the only one to stubbornly argue about it.

Anyway, I think you are literally arguing purely for the sake of argument, and I am not getting sucked into 5 pages of circular nonsense. Captain America still wins all three rounds, so this is a waste of time.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So again you are back to ignoring parts of my post and misreading others? I specifically said in multiple posts that he DID increase in skill and learn about his abilities more. And you did not address the fact that he was amped to full potential in the very first film, so from a pure physical statistics standpoint, he has been the same throughout. The boxing analogy is dumb, because I NEVER ONCE SAID that Captain America has not increased in skill or gotten a better handle on his powers. In fact, that has been my whole argument. His progression in feats is the result of improving his skills and getting used to his abilities, without them gaining further enhancements like more SS serum. The Neo argument is also dumb, because the extra powers he gained as the one required extra training and experience to unlock/harness. The SS serum didn't teach Cap how to use his arms, legs etc. (he already has normal motor function), and it didn't create some hidden reservoir of superpower, like he is Gohan from Dragon Ball or something. It boosted him from scrawny wimp to the pinnacle of humanity in one go. But I have mentioned this before, which you seemingly ignored. My argument has been that Steve's physical statistics have not increased (because he has been peak from the get go), simply explored, coupled with an increase in skill level. Seriously, do you skim read before replying?

Except he never specifically excluded other feats. I see nowhere where it says "Feats from TFA only". What I see is a thread made when there was only one film for that specific incarnation of Cap out, but multiple movie versions of Cap around by that point already (including animated versions), so the OP mentioned the film to specify from which film universe he is. And that is how pretty much everyone else here sees it. You are the only one to stubbornly argue about it.

Anyway, I think you are literally arguing purely for the sake of argument, and I am not getting sucked into 5 pages of circular nonsense. Captain America still wins all three rounds, so this is a waste of time.

If you understood the point about people becoming better, than we wouldn't be having this discussion. You were claiming that since he's the same CAP all his feats apply, even if a specific movie is mentioned. That is how we got into this discussion. If you have ANYTHING from the OP that NOW states he intended for all Cap feats to be included and he still thinks it's a good fight. Fine. But until then you're just extrapolating what he intended and intended now. I need no such extrapolation. He said which movie, that is the movie I'm going from. Stop acting like I'm going against the OP's intent. That couldn't be further from the truth, in fact, I'm going with EXACTLY the version he wanted to use.

if you were in agreement with me about skill and abilities increasing than how can you not see that one particular version of Cap might be better against opponent B.. because he hadn't increased to those level yet? How is this simple and easy to discern fact alluding you? So you concede that indeed, some version of Cap are better suited to certain opponents? Correct? Thus, why is it so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe this version of Cap is better for this fight?

The Op never stated that only FA feats are allowed, thus Cap's feats from current movies are fair game.

Nope he specified WHICH Cap he wanted used. It clearly and with no ambiguity said FA Cap. If you have a note from the OP saying he's now okay with all of Cap's feats, then go ahead and post his quote. If not, he said which Cap we're using and not all of his feats apply. Period.

He at no time states that only feats from FA are allowed.

he doesn't need to state it.. he said FA Cap.. that WAS which Cap he wanted used. He didn't just say Cap vs. Marv.. He SPECIFIED WHICH Cap he was using. As I stated, post a note from the OP saying all Cap's feats are okay to use. Stop being a moron. It's the same thing in the vs. forum. If somebody says Celestial Quest thanos... THAT is the Thanos we are using. Not subsequent Thanos' from Comics since then. That is the point of specifying which version you want used. When it just says Thanos vs. Thor... then all feats apply. If you say Thanos Imperative Thanos vs. V&V Despero.. THOSE are the versions used. Not all showings are admissible. You know this and are blatantly ignoring it.

Guys this has been going in circles for the last few pages and it is getting nowhere. Get a mod ruling or realize this is a silly debate.

The OP has final say on what persons they want to use and if they want to limit feats/abilities for those people to create interesting new scenarios. If there is something unclear than the OP should be the one to clarify and say what they meant.

Obviously in this case the OP hasn't posted in over a year so I doubt they are going to come in and settle this.

So in that case why don't you people be mature about the situation and realize you could both be right. Perhaps their original attention was only FA feats or perhaps they wouldn't care if you used feats from other movies as well. You'll never know.

So how about instead of arguing in circles over which scenario is the one true one you could instead argue both scenarios or only one scenario and if you don't want to argue one way then don't. Be flexible this supposed to be fun.

I'm glad that you finally admit that the Op didn't say that only FA feats are allowed, which means that all canon feats for MCU Cap are admissible.

Cap demolishes

Cap.., Marv is, incompetent. Cap is a well trained, and battle hardened soldier. Oh, and he also possess one of the most indestructible materials in the galaxy. Marv would be a a saturday morning villain, for Cap.

Originally posted by Newjak
Guys this has been going in circles for the last few pages and it is getting nowhere. Get a mod ruling or realize this is a silly debate.

The OP has final say on what persons they want to use and if they want to limit feats/abilities for those people to create interesting new scenarios. If there is something unclear than the OP should be the one to clarify and say what they meant.

Obviously in this case the OP hasn't posted in over a year so I doubt they are going to come in and settle this.

So in that case why don't you people be mature about the situation and realize you could both be right. Perhaps their original attention was only FA feats or perhaps they wouldn't care if you used feats from other movies as well. You'll never know.

So how about instead of arguing in circles over which scenario is the one true one you could instead argue both scenarios or only one scenario and if you don't want to argue one way then don't. Be flexible this supposed to be fun.

Thank you, Newjak, for saving me the trouble.

My apologies for not ruling earlier, but I've been working all day.

The OP/thread starter has final say so as to what feats, abilities, powers, and which version of which character they wish to use. PERIOD.

Back to topic, please, and with the stipulations set by the thread starter in the OP.

Also, since the thread starter is MIA, someone should probably make another thread, if they so wish, and make their own character settings. I'll allow it.

Originally posted by Impediment
Thank you, Newjak, for saving me the trouble.

My apologies for not ruling earlier, but I've been working all day.

The OP/thread starter has final say so as to what feats, abilities, powers, and which version of which character they wish to use. PERIOD.

Back to topic, please, and with the stipulations set by the thread starter in the OP. You need to quit your job and get your priorities straight.

Anyway, I just realized I was the OP, any Cap feats are viable.

Sorry about the confusion, guys.

The Op was perfectly clear, he didn't say that only feats from FA are allowed, therefore all canon feats for Cap are admissible.

Yeah, no.

My ruling was that the OP stated Cap from The First Avenger and no other versions.

The OP is indistinguishable, despite the claims of others.

Back to topic.

The op is from 2011, so it's not like he named FA in an effort to restrict usable feats for MCU Cap, but rather to indicate which movie universe Cap was from.

Even using only FA feats, Cap wins.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If you understood the point about people becoming better, than we wouldn't be having this discussion. You were claiming that since he's the same CAP all his feats apply, even if a specific movie is mentioned. That is how we got into this discussion. If you have ANYTHING from the OP that NOW states he intended for all Cap feats to be included and he still thinks it's a good fight. Fine. But until then you're just extrapolating what he intended and intended now. I need no such extrapolation. He said which movie, that is the movie I'm going from. Stop acting like I'm going against the OP's intent. That couldn't be further from the truth, in fact, I'm going with EXACTLY the version he wanted to use.

if you were in agreement with me about skill and abilities increasing than how can you not see that one particular version of Cap might be better against opponent B.. because he hadn't increased to those level yet? How is this simple and easy to discern fact alluding you? So you concede that indeed, some version of Cap are better suited to certain opponents? Correct? Thus, why is it so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe this version of Cap is better for this fight?

So you are just going to read what you want instead of what I am actually posting? Not surprised, this is not the first time, or the second, you have done this.

Look at the matches. Arm Wrestling - Pure strength. Cap is at peak from first film.
Durability test - Cap's been at human pinnacle from the very start there as well.
The only one where skill levels makes a difference is fight 3, and Cap has enough from TFA to win there in anyways. I have NEVER argued that his combat skill level hasn't increased. I said the direct opposite. I have said that his PHYSICAL stats have not increased, he has simply gotten more feats by virtue of being in more films. But you have ignored this time and time again in favour of reading what you want and then responding to that instead.

If you want to claim that Cap physically became stronger, physically became more durable, physically became faster, even though we KNOW he was enhanced to the VERY PEAK of human potential in TFA already, you have to prove it. That is why I have been asking you over and over, and you have been dodging over and over, do you think that Cap's face magically just became a whole lot tougher in between TFA and TWS? To such a degree that he could tank Bucky's punches in one but no the other? And if so, based on what?

I am beyond caring what the OP meant. As I have already stated, Cap wins regardless. I am interested in knowing why you are so vehemently against the use of physical stat feats when there is no reason to believe that the film they occur in makes any difference. And before you fly off the handle again, I am not saying ALL feats. For example, Cap from TWS is most definitely a more skilled combatant than he is in TFA, but I don't see any reason to believe he is physically any different otherwise. So why do you?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So you are just going to read what you want instead of what I am actually posting? Not surprised, this is not the first time, or the second, you have done this.

Look at the matches. Arm Wrestling - Pure strength. Cap is at peak from first film.
Durability test - Cap's been at human pinnacle from the very start there as well.
The only one where skill levels makes a difference is fight 3, and Cap has enough from TFA to win there in anyways. I have NEVER argued that his combat skill level hasn't increased. I said the direct opposite. I have said that his PHYSICAL stats have not increased, he has simply gotten more feats by virtue of being in more films. But you have ignored this time and time again in favour of reading what you want and then responding to that instead.

If you want to claim that Cap physically became stronger, physically became more durable, physically became faster, even though we KNOW he was enhanced to the VERY PEAK of human potential in TFA already, you have to prove it. That is why I have been asking you over and over, and you have been dodging over and over, do you think that Cap's face magically just became a whole lot tougher in between TFA and TWS? To such a degree that he could tank Bucky's punches in one but no the other? And if so, based on what?

I am beyond caring what the OP meant. As I have already stated, Cap wins regardless. I am interested in knowing why you are so vehemently against the use of physical stat feats when there is no reason to believe that the film they occur in makes any difference. And before you fly off the handle again, I am not saying ALL feats. For example, Cap from TWS is most definitely a more skilled combatant than he is in TFA, but I don't see any reason to believe he is physically any different otherwise. So why do you?


you answered your own question, because there IS a vs. fight in this scenario, thus it makes a WORLD of difference which version we are using. How on God's Green Earth has this alluded you. Comprehension failure for the loss. That is EXCACTLY why I'm having to clarify WHICH Cap we are using. Clearly the OP felt FA Cap was a good match.. after all he SPECIFIED which one he wanted used for God's sake. I don't know one way or another what his intentions are now, all I know is what his intentions were then. Guess what, it was FA Cap. Period, with no ambiguity.

Further, I'm also befuddled how you can't comprehend that not only would skill and abilities increase but it's not all about what your default level of strength always is. Have you ever watched pro arm wrestling before? The reigning champion isn't even the biggest guy, not even close. Nor is he the strongest guy in a weight lifting sense. But he's certainly the best with his reactions, form and leverage. Form and leverage are learned attributes, not given. You could have somebody who's naturally only this strong... but through training and exercise could lift more than his exact clone with his exact same potential because he's learned about things like leverage. I'm not convinced you've never in your life lifted a weight, or for that matter, ever watched a combat sport in your life.

Originally posted by Impediment
Yeah, no.

My ruling was that the OP stated Cap from The First Avenger and no other versions.

The OP is indistinguishable, despite the claims of others.

Back to topic.

Exactly as I've been saying. Thank you for clarifying Imp.

BTW, here are three other movie Cap threads that the Op has started and not once does he mention anything about restricting feats.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=554658&pagenumber=1
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=594522&pagenumber=1
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=565443

S

Is Silent still posting after being proven wrong? LMAO

Laugh all you want, but I've shown that the thread starter has made several Cap related threads and not once did he restrict feats. so while I'll respect Imp's ruling. it's clear to everyone that the Op naming the movie was just so people would know it was the MCU version of Cap and not the Ultimate or 90's version.