Steve Rogers War Games

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



JakeTheBank
Steve Rogers

vs.

Wolverine
Thor
Punisher
Batman
Wonder Woman
Orion


...but not how you think.

Steve has been given two years to take a force of fifty average and decidedly unremarkable human beings and whip them into shape as a well oiled fighting force. Each of Rogers opponents are given the same opportunity. Who here can compete evenly or even surpass Steve as a leader/trainer/tactician/strategist without directly involving themselves or any resources they possess in the battle itself?

EDIT:

Two scenarios to consider for the battles.

1. Non-Lethal/Incapacitation.
2. Any means necessary.

Mindset
Doom

JakeTheBank
I almost put him in, but I didn't want a spite thread on my conscience.

Bouboumaster
In my mind, I say that Wolverine would do better that Rogers.

Rogers is, without a doubt, a better tactician that Wolverine, and is infinitly better than him as a leader.

But I think that Wolverine is the best teacher out of the two, probably the most skilled, definitively the most knowledgable on the arts of fighting and war, and for sure, the most mean.

Rogers team would have the biggest balls, best teamwork, and best game plan, but Wolverine team would be filled with better overall soldiers, and they would be ready to spill blood everywhere.

Between these two, I'd say Wolverine.

Cogito
Wait, so it's

Steve's 50 grunts vs. Wolverine's 50 then separately
Steve's 50 grunts vs. Thor's 50...etc...

or is it

Steve's 50 vs. 50 trained by the team listed?

---

Steve and team 2 aren't involved in the fight, correct?

Edit: Are teams trained to go for the kill, or are they mimicing the personalities of their leaders?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Cogito
Wait, so it's

Steve's 50 grunts vs. Wolverine's 50 then separately
Steve's 50 grunts vs. Thor's 50...etc...

or is it

Steve's 50 vs. 50 trained by the team listed?

---

Steve and team 2 aren't involved in the fight, correct?

Yes, it's a gauntlet so to speak. He battles each opponent's force, with having his force fully healed and revived for each battle, but they don't retain any experience from previous fights.

And yes, Steve and his opponent do not directly engage in the fight, but can rely orders through a command center which is inaccessible and unalterable by opposing forces. Like a pocket dimension with computer screens showing the battlefield and what not or something.

Cogito
Two more questions before I weigh in...

Originally posted by Cogito
Edit: Are teams trained to go for the kill, or are they mimicing the personalities of their leaders?

This and..

Do the teams get to create any specialized equipment in the two years, or does everyone get issued standard military gear?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Cogito
Two more questions before I weigh in...



This and..

Do the teams get to create any specialized equipment in the two years, or does everyone get issued standard military gear?

There's two separate scenarios to consider: non-lethal rules of engagement and by any means necessary. The characters will command and lead their troops "in character", if that helps.

Everyone gets only standard military gear for the battle, but during the two year training, can use resources and equipment that the characters in question reasonably have access to. So Logan could, if he wanted, take his army and train them in the Danger Room, for example.

Cogito
Wolverine
Wolverine would be a comparable teacher to Cap. They both have a ton of experience, so this is probably the closest matchup. Cap has a slight edge in tactics/strategy, Wolverine has the edge in ruthlessness.
Scenario 1: Cap's team wins a close one. Wolverine's team just isn't equipped for non-lethal measures.
Scenario 2: Toss up or slight edge to Wolverine, for opposite reasons listed above.

Thor
IMO, Cap has the edge against Thor in just about every relevant category. Plus, his team respects him more and works harder for him.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: Cap

Punisher
Can't match Cap. Simple as that.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: Cap

Batman
Batman is no doubt an extraordinary teacher when it comes to a single pupil (see Robins). If you dumped 50 people in front of him he'd consider them a nuisance and ignore them. After two years he'd solo Caps team.
Scenario 1: Batman via cheating
Scenario 2: Batman via cheating

Wonder Woman
Arguably the most skilled person here (I'd argue it anyways). Raised by a culture that does this, and only this, for a living. She has enormous experience and resources to draw on. She may not be the strategist/tactician that Cap is, but she'll have the best fighters. By far.
Scenario 1: Team WW
Scenario 2: Team WW

Orion
...gets confused and overestimates human durability. Gets pissed of a lot by their incompetence. His team dies in their training.
Scenario 1: Cap via forfeit
Scenario 2: Cap via forfeit

Uriel005
Originally posted by Cogito
Wolverine
Wolverine would be a comparable teacher to Cap. They both have a ton of experience, so this is probably the closest matchup. Cap has a slight edge in tactics/strategy, Wolverine has the edge in ruthlessness.
Scenario 1: Cap's team wins a close one. Wolverine's team just isn't equipped for non-lethal measures.
Scenario 2: Toss up or slight edge to Wolverine, for opposite reasons listed above.

Thor
IMO, Cap has the edge against Thor in just about every relevant category. Plus, his team respects him more and works harder for him.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: Cap

Punisher
Can't match Cap. Simple as that.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: Cap

Batman
Batman is no doubt an extraordinary teacher when it comes to a single pupil (see Robins). If you dumped 50 people in front of him he'd consider them a nuisance and ignore them. After two years he'd solo Caps team.
Scenario 1: Batman via cheating
Scenario 2: Batman via cheating

Wonder Woman
Arguably the most skilled person here (I'd argue it anyways). Raised by a culture that does this, and only this, for a living. She has enormous experience and resources to draw on. She may not be the strategist/tactician that Cap is, but she'll have the best fighters. By far.
Scenario 1: Team WW
Scenario 2: Team WW

Orion
...gets confused and overestimates human durability. Gets pissed of a lot by their incompetence. His team dies in their training.
Scenario 1: Cap via forfeit
Scenario 2: Cap via forfeit Basically but I could just hear Punisher dishing out his best Lee Ermy drill sergeant voice. But honestly he was a marine captain and black ops operator from vietnam. Also afterwards he trained black ops. Honestly I think he's got quite the fair shot at beating cap in lethal ops not so much in scenario 1 though.

Cogito
Eh, training already highly trained soldiers is far different from training "decidedly unremarkable human beings"

Uriel005
Originally posted by Cogito
Eh, training already highly trained soldiers is far different from training "decidedly unremarkable human beings" He's got 2 years to do it and his motivation is the best kind. Raw unadulterated fear of him brutally ramming his fist into your guts until you get it right. So long as he doesn't break them he will push them much further than Cap would be willing to do. Admiration and morale is fine and well but Frank will give them a taste of what will happen should they fail.

Mshinu
These guys are average.. from experience I can say that only 40% or so would even make the cut as a regular soldier. Most average guys are either physically unfit or just unreliable. Training a hundred right off the street with no selection process would be extremely hard.

Cap wins in both senarios, he will bring out the best in all and produce the best functioning and adaptable unit. WW will do well but I imagine the learning curve will be slower. Wolvie and Punisher will end up with a badass force but quality will vary and far from all will complete their training program.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Mshinu
These guys are average.. from experience I can say that only 40% or so would even make the cut as a regular soldier. Most average guys are either physically unfit or just unreliable. Training a hundred right off the street with no selection process would be extremely hard.

Cap wins in both senarios, he will bring out the best in all and produce the best functioning and adaptable unit. WW will do well but I imagine the learning curve will be slower. Wolvie and Punisher will end up with a badass force but quality will vary and far from all will complete their training program. I think it matters little if Steve is basically training marines to Wolverine and Frank's Navy Seals. Also what is the battleground. If it's anything less than an open field where everyone can just point and shoot at what they see of course Steve's going to win. But urban environment/jungle/swamp/woodlands/tall grassland I'm going to go quality over quantity every time. Especially when every single one would be a damned ninja. Also Frank's unconventional tactics even personally against Steve I'd rate as superior and knowing him his force of 5 men who survived the training would have the entire battlefield rigged with boobietraps in the first 5 minutes while Steve's team is searching for them,

Mshinu
Originally posted by Uriel005
I think it matters little if Steve is basically training marines to Wolverine and Frank's Navy Seals. Also what is the battleground. If it's anything less than an open field where everyone can just point and shoot at what they see of course Steve's going to win. But urban environment/jungle/swamp/woodlands/tall grassland I'm going to go quality over quantity every time. Especially when every single one would be a damned ninja. Also Frank's unconventional tactics even personally against Steve I'd rate as superior and knowing him his force of 5 men who survived the training would have the entire battlefield rigged with boobietraps in the first 5 minutes while Steve's team is searching for them,

What is unconventional about setting traps? It is as basic to warfare as bullets.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Mshinu
What is unconventional about setting traps? It is as basic to warfare as bullets. point is I'd take a squad or 2 of seals over 50 marines

Batman-Prime
Batman inc!

Mshinu
Originally posted by Uriel005
point is I'd take a squad or 2 of seals over 50 marines

If you think 2 guys trained by Frank could play hide and seek well enough with 50 of Cap`s boys to take them all out.. you are simply mistaken.

Cogito
Originally posted by Uriel005
point is I'd take a squad or 2 of seals over 50 marines
Originally posted by Mshinu
If you think 2 guys trained by Frank could play hide and seek well enough with 50 of Cap`s boys to take them all out.. you are simply mistaken.

If you think he said 2 guys...you are simply mistaken. confused

Caps Conscience
Originally posted by Uriel005
point is I'd take a squad or 2 of seals over 50 marines

The squad of seals would turn around and shoot you if they knew that you willingly having them face 50 Marines.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
The squad of seals would turn around and shoot you if they knew that you willingly having them face 50 Marines. hey they aren't actually marines though. But still Spec ops in a battlefield that isn't an open field I'll back in 10 to 1 odds.

Black bolt z
Steve should be able to train people better than anyone else.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Steve should be able to train people better than anyone else. Steve would have all his recruits survive the process. Not so much in Castle's case but the ones who do would be highly professional albeit borderline psychopath killing machines.

Caps Conscience
Originally posted by Uriel005
hey they aren't actually marines though. But still Spec ops in a battlefield that isn't an open field I'll back in 10 to 1 odds.

Your crazy give me the number and the fire power. Your talking a platoon and a half vs. a squad at most. If you think that out of that 50 soldiers there aren't going to be any stellar ones on par with with the ones that survived Castle's, or Wolvie's trainning you are cookoo.

JakeTheBank
bump

srankmissingnin
Both Wolverine and Batman have extended history has combat trainers. Batman has trained a good portion of the League (and the Outsiders?), and obviously has a few Robin's under his belt. Wolverine has trained all the core X-men, he has half a dozen female prodigies, and it was stated back in New X-Men v2 at the Xavier Institute that each squad (Hellions, New Mutants, Alphas ect) spent two hours a day Mon - Fri learning martial arts with Logan. Cap has trained a few of the Avengers but on paper Batman and Wolverine have a much better resume as instructors. Cap can give a better "Any give Sunday" speech to rally his troops before the fight, but I'd be willing to bet that Bruce and Logan are going to end up with a noticeably more skilled group of people than Cap does. Wolverine is used to training groups, and lets be honest the X-Men have the best team work / power synergy in comics short of the FF, so training a group to work in unison won't be a problem for him but Batman is used to training one one for solo ops... so training a larger group and molding a cohesive unit might be more difficult for him.

Punisher is going to end up with a team of monsters. Unfortunately even in the best case scenario half of his guys wont survive the training... but the rest will be single minded inhuman beasts. This team will also have the best training with conventional military weaponry by a noticeable margin, which is a big question mark for the Cap team. How well can a person who adamantly doesn't believe in fire arms trains a group of people to use them?

Wolverine, Batman and Punisher's troops win. Thor, Wonder Woman and Orion's troops lose.

Newjak
Cap is an expert in this. There is a reason why everyone generally defers to him when it's time for a leader to take over.

Not just because he gives the best speeches but because he brings out the best in people and is one of if not THE soundest military mind.

I think his unit would beat everyone else's maybe with some difficultly where Batman/Wolverine/WW is concerned, especially since he is the one giving his units commands.

It's like asking who can create the best group of detectives and putting Batman in it.

Deadline
Originally posted by Cogito
Wolverine
Wolverine would be a comparable teacher to Cap. They both have a ton of experience, so this is probably the closest matchup. Cap has a slight edge in tactics/strategy, Wolverine has the edge in ruthlessness.
Scenario 1: Cap's team wins a close one. Wolverine's team just isn't equipped for non-lethal measures.
Scenario 2: Toss up or slight edge to Wolverine, for opposite reasons listed above.

Thor
IMO, Cap has the edge against Thor in just about every relevant category. Plus, his team respects him more and works harder for him.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: Cap

Punisher
Can't match Cap. Simple as that.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: Cap

Batman
Batman is no doubt an extraordinary teacher when it comes to a single pupil (see Robins). If you dumped 50 people in front of him he'd consider them a nuisance and ignore them. After two years he'd solo Caps team.
Scenario 1: Batman via cheating
Scenario 2: Batman via cheating

Wonder Woman
Arguably the most skilled person here (I'd argue it anyways). Raised by a culture that does this, and only this, for a living. She has enormous experience and resources to draw on. She may not be the strategist/tactician that Cap is, but she'll have the best fighters. By far.
Scenario 1: Team WW
Scenario 2: Team WW

Orion
...gets confused and overestimates human durability. Gets pissed of a lot by their incompetence. His team dies in their training.
Scenario 1: Cap via forfeit
Scenario 2: Cap via forfeit

Um in certain ways Pun is better at certain tactics than Cap, he doesn't make a good leader because hes a loner.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
Cap is an expert in this. There is a reason why everyone generally defers to him when it's time for a leader to take over.

Not just because he gives the best speeches but because he brings out the best in people and is one of if not THE soundest military mind.

I think his unit would beat everyone else's maybe with some difficultly where Batman/Wolverine/WW is concerned, especially since he is the one giving his units commands.

It's like asking who can create the best group of detectives and putting Batman in it.

Except Cap isn't leading anyone, he is training them, once they are out in the field they are on their own. Steve is in a tent somewhere getting details brought to him and delegating orders, but mostly his guys are on their own with whatever he gave them. If he was on the front lines it might be a different matter entirely... but he isn't. The question isn't who can lead a better force, the question is who can train a better force to lead themselves.

EDIT: If they had different objectives, like holding a fortified position or something, Cap's tactics from the side line would likely make his unit the favorite, but the objective in this scenario is find the other team and take them down... I'm not sure what can of orders he can relay that would matter.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Except Cap isn't leading anyone, he is training them, once they are out in the field they are on their own. Steve is in a tent somewhere getting details brought to him and delegating orders, but mostly his guys are on their own with whatever he gave them. If he was on the front lines it might be a different matter entirely... but he isn't. The question isn't who can lead a better force, the question is who can train a better force to lead themselves.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, it's a gauntlet so to speak. He battles each opponent's force, with having his force fully healed and revived for each battle, but they don't retain any experience from previous fights.

And yes, Steve and his opponent do not directly engage in the fight, but can rely orders through a command center which is inaccessible and unalterable by opposing forces. Like a pocket dimension with computer screens showing the battlefield and what not or something. So yes he is giving orders.

And even if he wasn't Captain America would still be able to train his people to work like him. That's the point. Steve does know tactics and strategies better than everyone. He would be able to give that knowledge to his people. Things other people don't think of that Cap does. His unit would be able to get a detailed idea of how his mind works which would be invaluable on the battlefield.

Lord Feron
I feel like pun would maybe braing wash one or a couple of his guys to be suicide bomber status. Dude won't give a **** about a couple of random guys he prob treats like shit anyway. I know thats kinda ****ed up but yeah i totally see him doing it. Have them attack and one guy with some kind of shield run in a blow up the enemy ftw.

But other than that I would say Cap, if these guys are in a featureless enviroment and are only given normal army weapons or today. Because imo he has the most experience training people in h2h. Also when the time comes he is pretty good with a gun and familiar with gun training due to his backround.

IDk how bats would do training a alot of average joes. Don't see him doing as well as cap.

WW she would be great at training them men to be good h2h combatants but everyone has a gun and she doesn't strike me as a person who knows how to use one much less good at it. She prob be like "gun's are for sissies, now everyone pick up a bow or spear" lol

Thor and orion yes they are leaders of their people and what not and has alot of experience but just don't see them training a bunch of normies that well.

Other than punisher I think wolverine is one of the biggest threats. Good teacher has the danger room and not that far being cap in tactics but prob no where near as good in the overall strategy dept.

I say Cap could clear it and will have trouble with pun and logan.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
So yes he is giving orders.

And even if he wasn't Captain America would still be able to train his people to work like him. That's the point. Steve does know tactics and strategies better than everyone. He would be able to give that knowledge to his people. Things other people don't think of that Cap does. His unit would be able to get a detailed idea of how his mind works which would be invaluable on the battlefield.

I'm well aware, I even said as much in the very post you quoted. But he isn't on the front line, getting second hand info from off site would be nothing but counter productive.

Based on what exactly? Look at all the people Batman has trained. How many of them work or think like he does? Maybe Pre-boot Tim on some levels... but that's it. Ditto goes for Wolverine and the people he has trained. Suddenly Captain America - who doesn't have a history of training skilled combatants - is going to create an entire platoon of Captain America lites who all think like he does? Not likely. The best the trainers can do is impart the skills their men need to survive and win the scenario, and make them self sufficient. The scenario here is very spartan. They aren't trying to sack supply trucks, they aren't trying to hold value ground, they aren't up against larger forces trying to win small victories and demoralize their opponents; it's two teams of 50 guys, in the forest, trying to find the other guys first and take them out. Captain America doesn't have the teaching / training chops his opponents have, nor is he as adept at stealth and guerrilla style modern warfare tactics. The reality is off site commands from any of the trainers are going to be next to useless in this scenario... and in fact will more than likely be detrimental over all and undermine the authority of which ever soldier takes point in the field.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm well aware, I even said as much in the very post you quoted. But he isn't on the front line, getting second hand info from off site would be nothing but counter productive.

Based on what exactly? Look at all the people Batman has trained. How many of them work or think like he does? Maybe Pre-boot Tim on some levels... but that's it. Ditto goes for Wolverine and the people he has trained. Suddenly Captain America - who doesn't have a history of training skilled combatants - is going to create an entire platoon of Captain America lites who all think like he does? Not likely. The best the trainers can do is impart the skills their men need to survive and win the scenario, and make them self sufficient. The scenario here is very spartan. They aren't trying to sack supply trucks, they aren't trying to hold value ground, they aren't up against larger forces trying to win small victories and demoralize their opponents; it's two teams of 50 guys, in the forest, trying to find the other guys first and take them out. Captain America doesn't have the teaching / training chops his opponents have, nor is he as adept at stealth and guerrilla style modern warfare tactics. The reality is off site commands from any of the trainers are going to be next to useless in this scenario... and in fact will more than likely be detrimental over all and undermine the authority of which ever soldier takes point in the field. To rebuttal all this I point to Civil War to show what Captain America is capable of in Guerrilla Warfare with vastly smaller resources to pool from.

As for stealth people have already stated that Steve would be one of the top assassins in the world if he wanted to be, because of his tactical mind.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
To rebuttal all this I point to Civil War to show what Captain America is capable of in Guerrilla Warfare with vastly smaller resources to pool from.

As for stealth people have already stated that Steve would be one of the top assassins in the world if he wanted to be, because of his tactical mind.


I feel like I've already clearly acknowledged that and clarified on the differences...

This isn't a Command and Conquer match. The teams are competing for resources. No one is trying to hold gold mines and gather lumber. There aren't supply trucks to sack and territory to conqueror. If you dropped Captain America at one end of a city with 50 soldiers, and Batman at the other end of a city with 50 soldiers and said "Take it over," that would be a scenario where Captain America's tactical mind would be invaluable... this thread is about two teams of 50 guys trying to take each other down. That's it. There isn't much resource or troop delegation to be had in this scenario, practical execution of their skills and training will be what wins the day.

Who has ever said?

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I feel like I've already clearly acknowledged that and clarified on the differences...

This isn't a Command and Conquer match. The teams are competing for resources. No one is trying to hold gold mines and gather lumber. There aren't supply trucks to sack and territory to conqueror. If you dropped Captain America at one end of a city with 50 soldiers, and Batman at the other end of a city with 50 soldiers and said "Take it over," that would be a scenario where Captain America's tactical mind would be invaluable... this thread is about two teams of 50 guys trying to take each other down. That's it. There isn't much resource or troop delegation to be had in this scenario, practical execution of their skills and training will be what wins the day.

Who has ever said? People at Shield when he was asked to take over. And perhaps they said spy instead of assassin.

So you're saying having the best military mind, best strategist teach you for two years is not gonna give you an edge over someone else, when you've been put in a situation where...

Strategy and the ability to adapt and overcome are gonna be the key ingredients to survive and win?

Silent Master
IMO Cap's team wins because they'd have the best teamwork and Cap is one of, if not the best at tactics and strategy.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
So you're saying having the best military mind, best strategist teach you for two years is not gonna give you an edge over someone else, when you've been put in a situation where...

Strategy and the ability to adapt and overcome are gonna be the key ingredients to survive and win?

Over someone? Certainly. Over a group of better trained people? No.

If we equate this to mathematical terms, then we are looking at an incredibly simple equation. Is Stephan Hawking going to solve he equation 2 + 3 = ? better than anya grad student? No. This scenario is incredibly simple, what is Captain America going to tell his troops that the other soldiers aren't going to be told? Stay hidden? Don't light fires? Your enemies will try to stay close to water? Split into smaller groups of 5 -10? Set traps? Wound an enemy soldier but keep him alive and use his screams to draw out your enemy? The tactics and strategies for this type of combat scenario are simple, and several of Cap's opponents are noticeably more skill at them than Steve himself.

Batman and Wolverine are better teachers / trainers than Cap, and they are more well versed in all of the strategies and tactics that are applicable for this sort of combat.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Over someone? Certainly. Over a group of better trained people? No.

If we equate this to mathematical terms, then we are looking at an incredibly simple equation. Is Stephan Hawking going to solve he equation 2 + 3 = ? better than anya grad student? No. This scenario is incredibly simple, what is Captain America going to tell his troops that the other soldiers aren't going to be told? Stay hidden? Don't light fires? Your enemies will try to stay close to water? Split into smaller groups of 5 -10? The tactics and strategies for this type of combat scenario are simple, and several of Cap's opponents are noticeably more skill at them than Steve himself.

Batman and Wolverine are better teachers / trainers than Cap, and they are more well versed in all of the strategies and tactics that are applicable for this sort of combat. laughing

Except this isn't math and even if it was that was a horrible example. For one you aren't dealing with a simple equation. You would be dealing multiple ones trying to figure them all out at the same time as quickly as possible. Something I'm sure SH would actually do a lot better than any grad student unless that Grad student happened to be a better Mathematician which could be possible.

Thankfully though Steve is the best strategist, technician, leader, and has the best ability to change the dynamic of a battlefield to suit his needs.

If you honestly think that kind of valuable information shared over two years isn't gonna give his team an edge that is you being asinine. Steve will be able to give insights that other people won't. He'll be able to teach his squad things others can't because he is the best and he is the best because he is better than others because he knows more/ can do work them out faster/ and knows what to look for better.

All things he can teach to his squad.

So yes I wil take a squad of Cap trained soldiers over everyone else on this list because of those reasons.

Add in the fact Cap has live ffeeds into the battle and can coach from the sidelines I think it's a huge advantage.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Batman and Wolverine are better teachers / trainers than Cap, and they are more well versed in all of the strategies and tactics that are applicable for this sort of combat. No their not, that's you pretending there. Steve routinely teaches and spars with people all the time.

Batman-Prime
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UeDQTQWjUGg/TsvBgf563bI/AAAAAAAAIHs/gXm9BcnhrrU/s1600/scan0012.jpg

uhuh

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
laughing

Except this isn't math and even if it was that was a horrible example. For one you aren't dealing with a simple equation. You would be dealing multiple ones trying to figure them all out at the same time as quickly as possible. Something I'm sure SH would actually do a lot better than any grad student unless that Grad student happened to be a better Mathematician which could be possible.

Thankfully though Steve is the best strategist, technician, leader, and has the best ability to change the dynamic of a battlefield to suit his needs.

If you honestly think that kind of valuable information shared over two years isn't gonna give his team an edge that is you being asinine. Steve will be able to give insights that other people won't. He'll be able to teach his squad things others can't because he is the best and he is the best because he is better than others because he knows more/ can do work them out faster/ and knows what to look for better.

All things he can teach to his squad.

So yes I wil take a squad of Cap trained soldiers over everyone else on this list because of those reasons.

Add in the fact Cap has live ffeeds into the battle and can coach from the sidelines I think it's a huge advantage.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

It's was an incredibly apt comparison. This is a simple combat scenario. It is. This type of warfare has been perfected, there is nothing he could come up with that hasn't already been documented and executed by military strategists. You know wins at a game of tag? The fastest kid. Being a genius is irrelevant. There isn't anything that can be brought to the table here, that Punisher hasn't seen in Vietnam. You can say "Mumble mumble Caps the best... mumble mumble... he'll think of something" until you are blue in the face... but you are wrong. Everything's already been thought of, and his opponents are better at these specif elements of warfare than he is. Propose a single viable tactic that will swing this in Caps favour that non of the other players have seen before.

Originally posted by Newjak
No their not, that's you pretending there. Steve routinely teaches and spars with people all the time.

And? Where are his Nightwing and Jason Todd? Where is his Black Widow? Wolverine and Batman train people, frequently. I know a guy who rolled with GSP once when he came to his gym... but he wasn't trained by him. Who is the pinacle of Cap's training abilities? Falcon? Sharon Carter? Bucky was primarily trained by the military and Russian secret soldier programming. Batman trained Jason every day for a year before he let him patrol as Robin. Wolverine teaches at least two hours a day at Xavier Institute. Cap spars with his other Avengers from time to time... that is hardly the same thing.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
roll eyes (sarcastic)

It's was an incredibly apt comparison. This is a simple combat scenario. It is. This type of warfare has been perfected, there is nothing he could come up with that hasn't already been documented and executed by military strategists. You know wins at a game of tag? The fastest kid. Being a genius is irrelevant. There isn't anything that can be brought to the table here, that Punisher hasn't seen in Vietnam. You can say "Mumble mumble Caps the best... mumble mumble... he'll think of something" until you are blue in the face... but you are wrong. Everything's already been thought of, and his opponents are better at these specif elements of warfare than he is. Propose a single viable tactic that will swing this in Caps favour that non of the other players have seen before.



And? Where are his Nightwing and Jason Todd? Where is his Black Widow? Wolverine and Batman train people, frequently. I know a guy who rolled with GSP once when he came to his gym... but he wasn't trained by him. Who is the pinacle of Cap's training abilities? Falcon? Sharon Carter? Bucky was primarily trained by the military and Russian secret soldier programming. Batman trained Jason every day for a year before he let him patrol as Robin. Wolverine teaches at least two hours a day at Xavier Institute. Cap spars with his other Avengers from time to time... that is hardly the same thing. Go ahead and ask person whose ever been in combat no one situation is ever going to play out exactly the same as another. The ability to critically think and understand how to adapt is important.

If you think it's just a system of warfare that isn't going to change I would love to meet you on the battlefield because history is full of times where that simply isn't the case.

Well Steve did take a rag tag group of heroes and abilities and turn them into a very devastating fighting force. This includes team work and the ability to function on the battlefield as a unit.

Oh and he's done it twice Civil war and Fear Itself.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Your crazy give me the number and the fire power. Your talking a platoon and a half vs. a squad at most. If you think that out of that 50 soldiers there aren't going to be any stellar ones on par with with the ones that survived Castle's, or Wolvie's trainning you are cookoo. Vietnam supposedly had a 200+ kd ratio per navy seal...even factoring in inflated numbers and artillery support thats insane. Especially considering quite a few ops wouldn't have artillery and air support vs the marines who you'd be hard pressed to find engagements where at least some artillery wasn't made available.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
Go ahead and ask person whose ever been in combat no one situation is ever going to play out exactly the same as another. The ability to critically think and understand how to adapt is important.

If you think it's just a system of warfare that isn't going to change I would love to meet you on the battlefield because history is full of times where that simply isn't the case.

The real world has a plethora of important strategic and political elements that could come to play and could be manipulate for the advantage of one side or the other... but none those thing exist in this scenario. This is a 50 v 50 fight. That's it. There is land to hold. No resources to capture. It's 50 guys trying to kill / incapacitate each other, and once that happens the game ends. There is no long term goals or survival considerations. Again: this is an incredibly simple combat scenario. When the fight is over they go home, the only goal here is to win a fight, in war the fight is a means to an end used to accomplish the real goal. The team that can avoid detection, set traps and execute hit and run ambushes the most effectively will win. Those are the tactics and strategies that come into play in this type of combat, with the limited resources the players have at their disposal.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The real world has a plethora of important strategic and political elements that could come to play and could be manipulate for the advantage of one side or the other... but none those thing exist in this scenario. This is a 50 v 50 fight. That's it. There is land to hold. No resources to capture. It's 50 guys trying to kill / incapacitate each other, and once that happens the game ends. There is no long term goals or survival considerations. Again: this is an incredibly simple combat scenario. The team that can avoid detection, set traps and execute hit and run ambushes the most effectively will win. Those are the tactics and strategies that come into play in this time of combat, with the limited resources the players have at their disposal. A simple combat scenario that can still play out a million different ways depending on what happens so excuse me if I still think you're wrong and full of it.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
A simple combat scenario that can still play out a million different ways depending on what happens so excuse me if I still think you're wrong and full of it.

I can walk down the stairs a million different ways... but I'm still going to end up at the bottom of the stairs when I'm finished.

There isn't a tactical genius "win button" for this time of combat. You stay hidden. You scout your enemy. You lay traps and ambushes. You pick the opportune moment of attack. The team who is better trained at those elements will win... and in at least three of these it won't be Captain America's team.

Uriel005
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The real world has a plethora of important strategic and political elements that could come to play and could be manipulate for the advantage of one side or the other... but none those thing exist in this scenario. This is a 50 v 50 fight. That's it. There is land to hold. No resources to capture. It's 50 guys trying to kill / incapacitate each other, and once that happens the game ends. There is no long term goals or survival considerations. Again: this is an incredibly simple combat scenario. When the fight is over they go home, the only goal here is to win a fight, in war the fight is a means to an end used to accomplish the real goal. The team that can avoid detection, set traps and execute hit and run ambushes the most effectively will win. Those are the tactics and strategies that come into play in this type of combat, with the limited resources the players have at their disposal. Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Uriel005
Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi.

He thinks this is a game of risk, but it's not or if it is it's not the strategic part anyway, where you capture valuable territory for troop deploment and form alliances, it's just two equal forces rolling dice at each other... and one side is rolling more die than their opposition.

Uriel005
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He thinks this is a game of risk, but it's not or if it is it's not the strategic part anyway, where you capture valuable territory for troop deploment and form alliances, it's just two equal forces rolling dice at each other... and one side is rolling more die than their opposition. Actually asked a friend whose currently a marine about the topic. He'd back a squad of seals in jungle/urban/unconventional settings over his fellow marines... He also happens to be one of those guys who is filled with esprit de corps... so I'd take the admission with a bit of weight.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Uriel005
Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi.

IMO, The difference is the soldiers skill level isn't going to be anywhere near that much.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually asked a friend whose currently a marine about the topic. He'd back a squad of seals in jungle/urban/unconventional settings over his fellow marines... He also happens to be one of those guys who is filled with esprit de corps... so I'd take the admission with a bit of weight.

http://sites.google.com/site/socal652/navy-seal-ad-swamp.jpg

Uriel005
Originally posted by Silent Master
IMO, The difference is the soldiers skill level isn't going to be anywhere near that much. Marine basic is 13 weeks in boot. In actuality the physical aspect of the training will take about that long as well as basic tactics and drills. Everything after that is up to the instructor. In a total war scenario I'll pick the more brutal instructors to toughen up the troops and in a live or die scenario I'll back Punisher and Wolverine. They'd probably leave the fungs who didn't survive boot in freezers so they could thaw them later and booby trap them when the time for the engagement came about.

Silent Master
As someone that actually went through basic, I'll pick the instructor that is best at inspiring people to give it their best.

Newjak
Originally posted by Uriel005
Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi. That assumes Steve's troops are lesser than others which you can't prove.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Newjak
That assumes Steve's troops are lesser than others which you can't prove. He won't push them to their breaking point and beyond. CIS yes but Steve generally cares too much to push his troops to the point of death.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I can walk down the stairs a million different ways... but I'm still going to end up at the bottom of the stairs when I'm finished.

There isn't a tactical genius "win button" for this time of combat. You stay hidden. You scout your enemy. You lay traps and ambushes. You pick the opportune moment of attack. The team who is better trained at those elements will win... and in at least three of these it won't be Captain America's team. Yeah and anyone of those millions ways you could safely get there, bump your tow slip and fall.

So you can end up at your destination in a number of ways. And where did I say this is about holding territory or resources. This is a battle and everything I said is still relative to that discussion.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Uriel005
He won't push them to their breaking point and beyond. CIS yes but Steve generally cares too much to push his troops to the point of death.

Steve caring about his troops is what will make him push them to give their best.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Silent Master
As someone that actually went through basic, I'll pick the instructor that is best at inspiring people to give it their best. Frank will inspire you alright... In actuality most of his guys would survive imo. Frank in character isn't that bad to innocent people. He'll give them hell though but at the end of the day they'll be better for it. Additionally part of his basic will likely be taking them on missions with him so they will probably have active combat experience as would wolverine's crew via danger room. Furthermore as I said his training will push each and every one of his men to the absolute limit of human endurance. I still think Steve is a bit too soft and won't push into dirtier tactics. i.e. boobytrapping dead enemy combatants and other less honorable ways of waging war. Steve has a code of conduct even on the battlefield and I don't think he'd break it in training his men.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Silent Master
Steve caring about his troops is what will make him push them to give their best. I think he'll be too concerned with their mental health. Punisher doesn't have as much of a moral dilemma about scarring his men for life.

Silent Master
Taking normal people on their missions might get the few that survive some good exp, but then it'll be Frank/Wolverine's 3 soldiers vs Cap's 50.

BTW, setting traps, ambusing and using snipers aren't dirty tactics in regards to warfare, it's SOP.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Silent Master
Taking normal people on their missions might get the few that survive some good exp, but then it'll be Frank/Wolverine's 3 soldiers vs Cap's 50.

BTW, setting traps, ambusing and using snipers aren't dirty tactics in regards to warfare, it's SOP. why do you think no-one would survive their training.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Uriel005
I think he'll be too concerned with their mental health. Punisher doesn't have as much of a moral dilemma about scarring his men for life.

You don't have to scar people for life in order to push their limits.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah and anyone of those millions ways you could safely get there, bump your tow slip and fall.

So you can end up at your destination in a number of ways. And where did I say this is about holding territory or resources. This is a battle and everything I said is still relative to that discussion.

Falling down the stars would indicate a lack of focus / dedication in my stair walking training. Cap's students will be "falling down the stairs" more than the rest because they won't be as well trained for this particular task.

You haven't, but its the only way to rectify what you are saying with the actual scenario laid out in this thread. None of the advantages you have attributed Captain America with will com into play here. The contest is simple and unless it branches out into the things I mentioned, Cap's superior strategic mind is completely inconsequential. I have several times outlined what the relevant tactics and strategies for this time of combat scenario are, and you haven't offered a single rebuttal other than to say "Captain America is the best." Purpose a single tactic that would trump what I have outlined. The soldiers most suited for this type of combat will win, and the reality is that several of Caps competitors are better trainers and better stealth / guerrilla style combatants.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Uriel005
why do you think no-one would survive their training.

You said they'd take the guys on their missions in order to get exp, remember these are "average and decidedly unremarkable human beings" most of them wouldn't survive a Wolverine or Punisher mission.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
You don't have to scar people for life in order to push their limits.

But you do need to push someone to their limits... which isn't something Cap will.

Punisher will break you down into nothing so he can rebuild you stronger. He will run you to the very edge and you'll need to improve because if you don't you will die. There will be no coddling because there is no coddling in war. Frank will groom men capable of anything, and they will go into war with a smile on their face because they know it will be a vacation compare to what they've already endured.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
But you do need to push someone to their limits... which isn't something Cap will.

Punisher will break you down into nothing so he can rebuild you stronger. He will run you to the very edge and you'll need to improve or die. There will be no coddling because there is no coddling in war. Frank will groom men capable of anything, and they will go into war with a smile on their face because they know it will be a vacation compare to what they've already endured.

Why wouldn't Cap push them to their limits?

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Falling down the stars would indicate a lack of focus / dedication in my stair walking training. Cap's students will be "falling down the stairs" more than the rest because they won't be as well trained for this particular task.

You haven't, but its the only way to rectify what you are saying with the actual scenario laid out in this thread. None of the advantages you have attributed Captain America with will com into play here. The contest is simple and unless it branches out into the things I mentioned, Cap's superior strategic mind is completely inconsequential. I have several times outlined what the relevant tactics and strategies for this time of combat scenario are, and you haven't offered a single rebuttal other than to say "Captain America is the best." Purpose a single tactic that would trump what I have outlined. The soldiers most suited for this type of combat will win, and the reality is that several of Caps competitors are better trainers and better stealth / guerrilla style combatants. YOu assume Cap's are gonna be lesser skilled.

You really can't understand how having a good strategic mind, and ability to adapt helps you on the battlefield?

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
Why wouldn't Cap push them to their limits?

Because he isn't hard enough. Normal people quite when things get hard, when they get tired they will stop and whine and complain and say "I need to go the bathroom" or "I'm going to throw up." or "I need water / food," and Cap won't be in their face screaming at them to keep going, to give 110% percent. If you gave Cap a group of already motivated Marines / SEALs and he trained them, that would be a different story, but he has 50 average guys here... people that resolve to lose 10 pounds every New Year and stop their work out routine a week later.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Newjak
YOu assume Cap's are gonna be lesser skilled.

You really can't understand how having a good strategic mind, and ability to adapt helps you on the battlefield? being strategic is all well and good. Does nothing if you don't have the quality of troops needed to accomplish the mission. Cap's troops will be less skilled. There is a reason why spec ops training is dehumanizing and brutal. Breaking down recruits is standard operating procedure. Frank will do it a hell of a lot easier than Cap would.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because he isn't hard enough. Normal people quite when things get hard, when they get tired they will stop and whine and complain and say "I need to go the bathroom" or "I'm going to throw up." or "I need water / food," and Cap won't be in their face screaming at them to keep going, to give 110% percent. If you gave Cap a group of already motivated Marines / SEALs and he trained them, that would be a different story, but he has 50 average guys here... people that resolve to lose 10 pounds every New Year and stop their work out routine a week later. Do you honestly think Cap won't push his men to be their best?

Guess what he will know why because Steve knows that anything less and you're going to die and Steve cares too much to let that happen. So Cap will push them as hard as anyone else will.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because he isn't hard enough. Normal people quite when things get hard, when they get tired they will stop and whine and complain and say "I need to go the bathroom" or "I'm going to throw up." or "I need water / food," and Cap won't be in their face screaming at them to keep going, to give 110% percent. If you gave Cap a group of already motivated Marines / SEALs and he trained them, that would be a different story, but he has 50 average guys here... people that resolve to lose 10 pounds every New Year and stop their work out routine a week later.

Now try answering my question, why wouldn't Cap puch them to their limits?

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
YOu assume Cap's are gonna be lesser skilled.

You really can't understand how having a good strategic mind, and ability to adapt helps you on the battlefield?

I know his team is going to be less skilled because Captain America is a less experience teacher, and is himself less adept at the skills his students need to implement in order to win this scenario.

Again: It would help him if he was maneuvering troops to take territory, resources, none which is germane to this discussion. What's he going to adapt to? His men getting stealth killed? What's he going to say? Be stealthier and stop getting killed? Or run away? Wow... thanks Cap! What sort of strategic assistance is Captain America going to offer his troops? This type of combat is fought in a specific way and his opponents are better and more experienced at it than he is.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
Now try answering my question, why wouldn't Cap puch them to their limits?

I just did.

Uriel005
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I just did. It's all hypotheticals and i don't think we're going to convince them otherwise.

/thread

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I just did.

No, you didn't...all you said was that they'd be lazy, which is also true of the people Wolverine and Punisher are training.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Uriel005
It's all hypotheticals and i don't think we're going to convince them otherwise.

/thread

Apparently.

Captain America is too nice. He'll want his troops to give their best, but he won't force, and if you ask him for a break he is going to give you one. Steve doesn't have what it takes to be a drill instructor, it's out of character. The other teams will be pushed harder than his, and have more to show for it by the end of the two years.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Apparently.

Captain America is too nice. He'll want his troops to give their best, but he won't force, and if you ask him for a break he is going to give you won. Steve doesn't have what it takes to be a drill instructor, it's out of character. The other teams will be pushed harder than his, and have more to show for it by the end of the two years.

Cap caring about his troops is what will make him push them to their limits.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
No, you didn't...all you said was that they'd be lazy, which is also true of the people Wolverine and Punisher are training.

Captain America will facility their laziness, Wolverine and Punisher won't because they are in your face hardasses that will force their men to go until the exercise is finished or they pass out from sheer exhaustion.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Cap caring about his troops is what will make him push them to their limits.

That's a beautiful fairy tale. Unfortunately it's out of character for Cap. The meanest thing he has ever done is make Hawkeye briefly train without a bow.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America will facility their laziness, Wolverine and Punisher won't because they are in your face hardasses that will force their men to go until the exercise is finished or they pass out from sheer exhaustion.



That's a beautiful fairy tale. Unfortunately it's out of character for Cap. The meanest thing he has ever done is make Hawkeye briefly train without a bow.

What color is the sky in your world?

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
What color is the sky in your world?

Blue, I'm assuming it's - what - red in what ever ass backwards dimension you were squeezed out in?

There is a reason drill instructors and fitness trainers are all assholes, shouting about how 13 year old girls and their grandma can do the training better / longer / more efficiently than you can... because that is what works, that is what people respond to. Cap won't ride a person's ass screaming in their face that they are soft and insinuating they are gay if they can't do one more set, until they collapse form utter exhaustion. That just isn't who he is.

Silent Master
Speaking as someone that has actually gone through basic(including having a Navy Seal as a DI), your statement is wrong.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
Speaking as someone that has actually gone through basic(including having a Navy Seal as a DI), your statement is wrong.

And here you are now, molded into an unstoppable war-machine... on the internet debating the finer points of which comic book characters are the toughest 24 hours a day. Mission accomplished? Did your DI get a medal after he created such a beast?

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And here you are now, molded into an unstoppable war-machine... on the internet debating the finer points of which comic book characters are the toughest 24 hours a day. Mission accomplished? Did your DI get a medal after he created such a beast?

Are you going to cry now?

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And here you are now, molded into an unstoppable war-machine... on the internet debating the finer points of which comic book characters are the toughest 24 hours a day. Mission accomplished? Did you DI get a medal after he created such a beast? That's a poor argument. Just because he is on here does not mean he didn't complete Navy Seal training nor does it make your points any less or more valid.

The fact is Steve knows what it takes to Survive in a fight and you're idea he is somehow going to prepare his men less than anyone else for that purpose is asinine.

Steve will push them because he knows if he doesn't they die, Steve isn't the kind of guy who will let that happen. He is not going to send a man into battle unless he knows for sure they can handle it to level they need to.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Newjak
That's a poor argument. Just because he is on here does not mean he didn't complete Navy Seal training nor does it make your points any less or more valid.

The fact is Steve knows what it takes to Survive in a fight and you're idea he is somehow going to prepare his men less than anyone else for that purpose is asinine.

Steve will push them because he knows if he doesn't they die, Steve isn't the kind of guy who will let that happen. He is not going to send a man into battle unless he knows for sure they can handle it to level they need to.

I didn't go through Seal training, one of my regular boot camp DIs was a Seal.

srank has just seen Full Metal Jacket one to many times.

Newjak
Originally posted by Silent Master
I didn't go through Seal training, one of my regular boot camp DIs was a Seal.

srank has just seen Full Metal Jacket one to many times. Oh my bad.

godking
Too bad taskmaster is not in the war games.

Tasky would be perfect on the training side.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
Are you going to cry now?

No, I didn't laugh hard enough at your post to start crying. Close though.

But your comparison is actually apt. Captain America will train his men with kid gloves like your basic training DI did, and Punisher will train his men like Navy SEALs, a training program that has a 80 washout rate...

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
The fact is Steve knows what it takes to Survive in a fight and you're idea he is somehow going to prepare his men less than anyone else for that purpose is asinine.

Steve will push them because he knows if he doesn't they die, Steve isn't the kind of guy who will let that happen. He is not going to send a man into battle unless he knows for sure they can handle it to level they need to.

The difference between basic Army Infantry and Marines and Navy SEALS. They are all combat ready troops ready to serve... but they aren't remotely equal. Steve will push his men as far as they need to go to survive, Punisher will push them as far as they will go before the training actually kills them.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, I didn't laugh hard enough at your post to start crying. Close though.

But your comparison is actually apt. Captain America will train his men with kid gloves like your basic training DI did, and Punisher will train his men like Navy SEALs, a training program that has a 80 washout rate...

I didn't get trained with "kid gloves", you don't have to be an ahole to motivate people.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
I didn't get trained with "kid gloves", you don't have to be an ahole to motivate people.

Relative to BUD/S and SQT you were trained with kid gloves.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Relative to BUD/S and SQT you were trained with kid gloves.

"Average and decidedly unremarkable human beings" aren't going to make it through BUD/S.

Given enough time guys like Frank and Wolverine can get their guys to a level where they might survive that training, but then again, so could Cap.

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The difference between basic Army Infantry and Marines and Navy SEALS. They are all combat ready troops ready to serve... but they aren't remotely equal. Steve will push his men as far as they need to go to survive, Punisher will push them as far as they will go before the training actually kills them. No he will push them to survive what he knows what they be up against. He knows his foes he knows what kind of people they are gonna train. Steve will in turn train his men to that level and better because Cap isn't just about making people good enough he wants them succeed and be the best they can be.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
"Average and decidedly unremarkable human beings" aren't going to make it through BUD/S.

Given enough time guys like Frank and Wolverine can get their guys to a level where they might survive that training, but then again, so could Cap.

They don't have anywhere to go though, there isn't a drop out option. Punisher isn't going to let them go home if they aren't up to snuff, he'll keep pushing them until the are... or they die trying. In essence they will make in through the program or they will die in the process (which will almost certainly happen). Cap isn't going to push his men like that. Cap will have 50 will trained troops by the end. Punisher, will have 20 -30 extremely well trained troops.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Newjak
No he will push them to survive what he knows what they be up against. He knows his foes he knows what kind of people they are gonna train. Steve will in turn train his men to that level and better because Cap isn't just about making people good enough he wants them succeed and be the best they can be.
I think you are serous over looking what srank saying.


It not that capt wont push them, but he has his limits. He wont risk there lives in the proccess of training them. Punisher and Wolverine to a lesser extent will. That makes a huge difference.


also think you dont grasp the difference between a good leader and a good trainer. Just because your the best at one does not make you good in the other. There two different skills.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Newjak
No he will push them to survive what he knows what they be up against. He knows his foes he knows what kind of people they are gonna train. Steve will in turn train his men to that level and better because Cap isn't just about making people good enough he wants them succeed and be the best they can be.

Nothing we've seen from his on panel training nor his personality suggest that Captain America will be able or willing to sacrifice his values and ideals in order to do what is necessary for him to create soldiers on par with Punisher / Wolverine. It's not who Steve is. He is the sterling sentinel of liberty, he was paired with Bucky for more or less these very reason. There are things that Captain America won't do. Lines he wont cross. Maybe he can delegate the physical training to USAgent and focus on theory and other skills, but Captain America doesn't have what it takes to be the type of DI that will turn men into the absolute pinnacle of their potential. Captain America won't risk the lives of the people he is training in order to make better soldiers. Simple as that.

Silent Master
Even highly trained soldiers have trouble making it through BUD/S either they can't take the pressure or they get injured.

Dropping "Average and decidedly unremarkable human beings" direrctly into such training is just going to get them injured or mentally broken to the point where they can't continue the training. congrats, Wolverine and the Punisher won't have a team to field.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
Even highly trained soldiers have trouble making it through BUD/S either they can't take the pressure or they get injured.

Dropping "Average and decidedly unremarkable human beings" direrctly into such training is just going to get them injured or mentally broken to the point where they can't continue the training. congrats, Wolverine and the Punisher won't have a team to field.

They have two years to get the job done, the won't drop them into BUD/S right of the back, they will ramp up to it. Two years, no weekends off or vacation time, just constant training is a long ass time.

Dum Dum Dugan
Also injuries will not be a factor for Wolverine team. Punishers perhaps, but Wolverine as some of the best tech on the planet. He also has one of the best doctors on staff. The idea that injuries will be an issue for his men seem doubtful.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They have two years to get the job done, the won't drop them into BUD/S right of the back, they will ramp up to it. Two years, no weekends off or vacation time, just constant training is a long ass time.

Just like Cap will ramp up to that level of training.

Newjak
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Also injuries will not be a factor for Wolverine team. Punishers perhaps, but Wolverine as some of the best tech on the planet. He also has one of the best doctors on staff. The idea that injuries will be an issue for his men seem doubtful. You make it sounds like Cap doesn't have a ton of resources to pull from either.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Newjak
You make it sounds like Cap doesn't have a ton of resources to pull from either.

It's almost as ignorant as the "you have to be an ahole to be an effective trainer" argument.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
Just like Cap will ramp up to that level of training.

He will, but he'll never hit the same levels.

Silent Master
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He will, but he'll never hit the same levels.

True, his people will make it further due to their better teamwork and higher morale

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Newjak
You make it sounds like Cap doesn't have a ton of resources to pull from either.
?

My response had nothing to do with capt troops. Not sure were you got this idea from.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
True, his people will make it further due to their better teamwork and higher morale

Higher morals maybe, but I don't know about better team work. People forge iron hard bonds in times of adversity.

Dum Dum Dugan
Not to mention as you stated X-men arguably have the best team work of any superhero team out side FF. And I would say the two characters in particular that had the best team work of any x-men were Wolverine and Night crawler. Wolverine team should have dam good teamwork

Silent Master
IMO, Cyclops is responsible for most of the X-men's teamwork, not Wolverine.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Silent Master
IMO, Cyclops is responsible for most of the X-men's teamwork, not Wolverine.


He not responable for Wolverine and Night crawler team work.....so i having hard time understand what the point of your statement was.

Silent Master
Working well w/one person isn't the same as training a large group of people to work together.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Master
IMO, Cyclops is responsible for most of the X-men's teamwork, not Wolverine.

Only in the sense that he (or Professor X) is the one who scheduled the Danger Room time. The X-Men are so effective as s team because they train together constantly. They new the ins and outs of each others skills and abilities. There are probably more X-Men training scenes that probably all the other teams combined... but the X-Men have more books than all the other teams combined so that might not be entirely fair.

Deadline
Wow, so Cyclops can't get his props?

Newjak
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Only in the sense that he (or Professor X) is the one who scheduled the Danger Room time. The X-Men are so effective as s team because they train together constantly. They new the ins and outs of each others skills and abilities. There are probably more X-Men training scenes that probably all the other teams combined... but the X-Men have more books than all the other teams combined so that might not be entirely fair. Going by that logic Wolverine does not help much then either when it comes to teaching people considering they get most of their training in the Danger Room.

I know you're gonna say but they specifically train with Wolverine. Well the group trains with a number of different people Cyclops included among those trachers.

DarkSaint85
Who trains the JLA? I know Batman spars with WW, and has taught Superman some tricks...but do they generally rely on MM's telepathy during battle for their teamwork?

Silent Master
Originally posted by Deadline
Wow, so Cyclops can't get his props?

Not from Wolverine fans.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.