Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

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Stealth Moose
Each is as of their peak in the Clone Wars. Neutral setting. The arena is the Jedi Temple library.

Turr_Phennir
Opress solos. He overwhelmed Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously and that was prior to his rage!boost that enabled him to floor Dooku (temporarily).

Stealth Moose
Hm, I didn't recall that. How lopsided was it?

Turr_Phennir
SM
Hm, I didn't recall that. How lopsided was it?

UtqDN4p6_PA

Fairly, and was more impressive since Opress's objective was to bring Katuunko's body back to Dooku. The fight begins on 2:31.

Nephthys
He's kind of a complete newb though.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
He's kind of a complete newb though.

Yeah, but even for a newb.... erm

Nephthys
He didn't beat them though. He dropped a platform on them.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
He didn't beat them though. He dropped a platform on them.

This seems counterintuitive. Opress barely acknowledged their existence, so concerned was he with fulfilling Dooku's objective. His focus the entire time was on Katuunko and he still manhandled both of them. mmm

Stealth Moose
I wouldn't call that a solid victory. After all, they were able to dogpile him at one point. Had they attacked with sabers instead of attempted DDTs, I'm sure he'd be dead. Also, when he fought them in the hallways he was driving them back, but he could not penetrate their defenses without rawr!Force bursts.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Opress solos. He overwhelmed Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously and that was prior to his rage!boost that enabled him to floor Dooku (temporarily).

This phraseology is apocryphal.

I am not familiar with the context of this clip, but this video you provided demonstrated Kenobi and Anakin as having the intention to capture Opress, it seems, rather than slaying him.

Nothing shows that he would even beat Obi-Wan in combat. Even at 3:11, that 'berserk' Force Push barely affected Kenobi.

Turr_Phennir
SM
I wouldn't call that a solid victory. After all, they were able to dogpile him at one point. Had they attacked with sabers instead of attempted DDTs, I'm sure he'd be dead.

The duel begins with Opress dueling two vastly more experienced warriors while simultaneously hauling and restraining a captive. During the dogpile, Opress is more concerned with preventing Katuunko from escaping. After he hurls them aside and drops the platform on them, he flees with Katuunko, so concerned is he in fulfilling Dooku's objective.

SM
Also, when he fought them in the hallways he was driving them back, but he could not penetrate their defenses without rawr!Force bursts.

Given what he'd just endured during the fight with Dooku and Ventress, I'm not surprised.

Turr_Phennir
KV
I am not familiar with the context of this clip, but this video you provided demonstrated Kenobi and Anakin as having the intention to capture Opress, it seems, rather than slaying him.

Likewise, Opress's intentions were equally compromised. Anakin and Obi-Wan differ in one regard: Opress was their objective; to Opress, they were merely an obstacle to be removed (not necessarily terminated). Despite their greater numbers, experience, and the considerable advantage of not simultaneously restraining a prized captive, they were beaten and left for dead.



no expression

You mean like the fact that he overcame both Kenobi and Anakin together?



no expression

The fact that he didn't permanently damage them is an indicator of... what, exactly? It's already been established that he was more concerned with getting away than killing them.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The duel begins with Opress dueling two vastly more experienced warriors while simultaneously hauling and restraining a captive. During the dogpile, Opress is more concerned with preventing Katuunko from escaping. After he hurls them aside and drops the platform on them, he flees with Katuunko, so concerned is he in fulfilling Dooku's objective.

Right, this proves his dedication, even if he royally screwed the pooch by killing his captive. But it evades the issue - that Obi-Wan and Anakin, though given a clear opportunity to kill him, deliberately did not. His lucky evasion/gave 'em the slip routine does not speak to his martial prowess so much as it proves he was fortunate against two opponents who didn't want to kill him.

Which is irrelevant for this debate.



Oppress was basically raging at this point, so it's debatable if he was "worn down" or damaged from the repeated lightning. I personally think his open style and his large frame and saber prevented him from flanking or tearing apart the Jedi in the confined hallway. But the point remains - he did not simply walk all over them. When sabers crossed, he was held at bay.

Eminence
The 3:11 Force-push knocks over a starship.

Thread: Jedi get... mauled.

shifty

Turr_Phennir
SM
Right, this proves his dedication, even if he royally screwed the pooch by killing his captive. But it evades the issue - that Obi-Wan and Anakin, though given a clear opportunity to kill him, deliberately did not. His lucky evasion/gave 'em the slip routine does not speak to his martial prowess so much as it proves he was fortunate against two opponents who didn't want to kill him.

Which is irrelevant for this debate.

If I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), you're attempting to assert that because Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't exploit an opportunity to kill Opress that it undermines my assertion that Opress manhandled them. What I am doing is establishing a parallel; Opress didn't press the advantage when he undeniably had it, because he was too concerned with restraining Katuunko. When Katuunko was dealt with, Opress shrugged both Jedi off and disabled them casually. He could have dealt with them then, but chose to complete his objective as ordered by the Count.



When sabers crossed after being repeatedly electrocuted by Count Dooku (remember what it did to Anakin?), Opress was held at bay in a confining corridor only to eventually overcome the Jedi and Dooku's droid contingent with the Force. I'm not seeing your argument here.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), you're attempting to assert that because Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't exploit an opportunity to kill Opress that it undermines my assertion that Opress manhandled them. What I am doing is establishing a parallel; Opress didn't press the advantage when he undeniably had it, because he was too concerned with restraining Katuunko. When Katuunko was dealt with, Opress shrugged both Jedi off and disabled them casually. He could have dealt with them then, but chose to complete his objective as ordered by the Count.

You're missing the point.

The second Oppress tried to throw his hostage aside to engage, he was hit by both Jedi and had they struck lethally, he'd be dead. But they weren't trying to kill him. So he's pinned. He TK's his hostage dead, and then rawr throws them back before dropping a pod on them for good measure.

Nowhere did he render them open to death or defeat by saber mastery, or creative use of Force that isn't as basic as a push that won't aid him in a Jedi Library arena. To further that point, he was battling the Jedi while hovering high off of the ground on floating pods; clearly, any TK attempts would be far more impacting than on a level playing field.

So if you are using this fight as proof of Oppress > Obi/Annie, what instances are valid? I don't see any.



The Jedi gave ground before the forward-moving Oppress. It's probably obvious that the Zabrak is physically stronger than them, since he's nearly twice their size around, but the point is, he's not wrecking their day, nor is he "soloing". He's driving them back with an aggressive, rage-fueled and they're adequately defending without apparent danger or serious effort.

Had they not backed into an open room filled with droids, then we could have better examined how he stacked up. The limitation of room would have been lifted and he could have gone all out.

Or, they could have flanked him and destroyed him. The point is we don't know, and none of the above showings are conclusive.

Lastly, you could argue that Oppress was "weakened" from Dooku's lightning, but this still ignores the fact that you can't argue a "normal" Oppress versus Anakin/Obi on neutral ground.

And this isn't even taking into account Kit Fisto, who was according to The Cestus Deception, a better swordsman than Obi-Wan and more aggressive/random.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Likewise, Opress's intentions were equally compromised. Anakin and Obi-Wan differ in one regard: Opress was their objective; to Opress, they were merely an obstacle to be removed (not necessarily terminated). Despite their greater numbers, experience, and the considerable advantage of not simultaneously restraining a prized captive, they were beaten and left for dead.

1. The duo were not engaging Opress anywhere near the level to which they fought Dooku in ROTS. It's evident that when they decided to wrestle the Zabrak (as opposed to finishing him off) that they had no intention of killing him and didn't have much idea on the person they were holding down.

2. Because they weren't intending on killing him, you can't assume that Opress will suddenly kill them in a legitimate fight since he too didn't want to fight them.




Major asterisk there.





Very well, no point pursuing this one since you're more or less saying that his Force powers aren't at full strength because he was fleeing.

I was pointing out how his attempts to incapacitate/overpower them with offensive TK barely barely affected the duo.

Turr_Phennir
At the 2:35 mark, Katuunko regains consciousness and begins to attack Opress; at the 2:37 mark, he manages to slip out of Opress's grasp, and it as it this point that the Jedi attempt their dogpile.The only single instance in which Kenobi and Anakin had the upper hand was the direct result of a distraction generated by a third party, which, unlike Opress's telekinetic powers, will not occur in the duel proposed by this thread.

Furthermore, I accept that the Jedi weren't seeking to kill Opress, but I will reiterate that Opress wasn't exactly seeking to kill them as well in as much as he only applied as much force as was necessary to get them out of his way. When Katuunko was killed and he brought his full focus to bear, Obi-Wan and Anakin were summarily and casually tossed aside and overpowered via Opress's own powers and ingenuity, something that the two Jedi cannot claim for themselves.



While that may be, Opress demonstrates impressive telekinetic powers during his training with Count Dooku and his escape from Toydaria after besting Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even on level ground, telekinesis can be devastating and under certain circumstances decisive, unless there is no object with which to bludgeon the Jedi (including walls).



I don't see the valid reasoning behind discrediting Opress's manipulation of the environment. Anakin attempted to use the Force to hurl a platform at Opress with the intent to subdue him, which failed. Many duels in the films and EU depict combatants make use of the environment and if Opress's clever use of the hover platform somehow doesn't indicate superiority despite the odds and disadvantages he endured, then that requires a reexamination of many duels and fights throughout canon.



Without apparent danger or serious effort? By what standard? They're wielding weapons that casually removes limbs, what isn't dangerous about that?



And yet again I must reiterate that Opress managed to overwhelm the Jedi and the droids via the Force on a level playing field.



Are you arguing that Opress was still operating under the effects of battle rage during the second duel with Obi-Wan and Anakin? Regardless, a 'normal' Opress was able to dominate both opponents despite enormous disadvantages on Toydaria.

Turr_Phennir
KV
1. The duo were not engaging Opress anywhere near the level to which they fought Dooku in ROTS.

I never claimed as much.





As I pointed out here to Janus, the duo's single moment of advantage was the direct result of an occurrence manufactured by an outside party (Katuunko, in his bid for freedom). There's no indication that they would have even been in a dominant position had it not been for his efforts; in fact, all evidence (Opress's subsequent and casual escape from the dogpile) indicates otherwise.



Perhaps not suddenly, but what we have here is three combatants who ultimately did not want to slay the other. The problem is that despite this seemingly shared state of mind, Kenobi and Anakin were completely focused on subduing Opress; Opress had other things on the mind. He treated them fairly negligibly and still emerged victorious. Twice.



Despite yours and Janus's assurances to the contrary, I'm not seeing much evidence for their formidable performance against Opress beyond a momentary position of advantage that was born from a complete fluke (Katuunko): A fluke that won't be present here.



I'm not sure where I argued that at all.



And what exactly did they do to him that had any effect at all? Because as I see it "barely" is better than nothing.

Eminence
Yet was nonetheless outmatched by Ventress, as was Obi-Wan.

And aggression is the trademark of Anakin, with whom Obi-Wan has the added advantage of practiced coordination, but even together they never seemed to gain much advantage over Opress. I doubt Kit Fisto would do better.

I'm not committed to the idea that Opress could kill these two himself, but as per the thread he doesn't need to. Ventress is at least the equal of either Jedi at this point, and Opress is a dominant enough force to firmly tip the odds.

Nephthys
I think its obvious right now that the first fight against Oppress isn't sufficient to declare a superiority of either side. Niether side was actually seriously fighting the other and there were other variables in there. Nor is the other fight imo.

Though I would say that the absurd ease with which Dooku was dodging his blows says something of his lightsaber prowess.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
At the 2:35 mark, Katuunko regains consciousness and begins to attack Opress; at the 2:37 mark, he manages to slip out of Opress's grasp, and it as it this point that the Jedi attempt their dogpile.The only single instance in which Kenobi and Anakin had the upper hand was the direct result of a distraction generated by a third party, which, unlike Opress's telekinetic powers, will not occur in the duel proposed by this thread.

Furthermore, I accept that the Jedi weren't seeking to kill Opress, but I will reiterate that Opress wasn't exactly seeking to kill them as well in as much as he only applied as much force as was necessary to get them out of his way. When Katuunko was killed and he brought his full focus to bear, Obi-Wan and Anakin were summarily and casually tossed aside and overpowered via Opress's own powers and ingenuity, something that the two Jedi cannot claim for themselves.

So the point I made remains:

How is this small excerpt where neither party appears to want to kill the other on hazardous ground with the distraction of the hostage relevant to a neutral setting death match?

Answer: it isn't.

Oppress' momentary TK over Obi-Wan and Anakin who were not trying to actively resist his Force powers is not conclusive enough to put him above them in general martial prowess. To further elaborate on that, Oppress rawr!Force choked both Ventress and Dooku later on who were distracted with fighting each other, yet we can all agree Dooku and perhaps Ventress are wella head of him in mastery of the Force. In a setting without plot-induced distractions, Dooku or Ventress could likely block TK, and Dooku could probably outright dodge Oppress' blows and shock him to death.



And yet his TK push of Obi-Wan and Anakin had the effect of putting distance between them and momentarily inconveniencing them, but they got right up. Let's compare this act of TK versus say, Dooku's in RotS. When Dooku chokes/TKs Obi-Wan, he slings him against a bulkhead/rail with enough Force to knock him out, and then drops that walkway on his legs (Which Obi somehow suffered with no ill effect, go figure). Oppress does a rawr!Force push that makes Obi and anakin both hit a wall and get right back up again.

Yeah, it looked impressive. But the point remains that it was not a game-breaker on flat ground. Neither Jedi was totally incapacitated by it. The way it separates fighters nullifies any combat advantages for Oppress, because his modus operandi is in-close saber combat utilizing his strength which is no doubt measured in gorillas. Dooku meanwhile regularly disarms, chokes and chucks people around like ragdolls.

The reason I bring up Dooku's use of the Force is because it's instrumental to the huge advantage he has over all his opponents. In sheer mastery, he's above Ventress, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Oppress. For him, TK is a game-breaker. He does not need to close the distance to defeat his foes. We can't say Oppress has the same advantages.

- TK two Jedi away from you when they were not actively blocking TK, and the fact that you're on a hovering platform means they cannot recover easily and you have the advantage. Situational.

- TK push two Jedi away from you when they engage in combat in a small ship's corridor and adjacent hallway. Neither is immediately incapped and they recover with relative ease. You then subsequently engage in close combat without using TK and they give ground, presumably to run your rage out and defeat you when you're tired or wait for open ground and flank you. Straight-forward use, ineffectual.

- You choked two powerful dark siders who were intent on killing each other and not you in a moment of considerable rage and pain. Situational.



I'm not saying Oppress wasn't clever or tactical in his fight; my point remains that it wasn't a conclusive neutral fight for valid comparison. The nature of the fight (they're all distracted and no one is really committed to a real duel) only adds to that.



Is this a serious rebutall?

In a lightsaber fight, they seemed to not be in any apparent danger from Oppress' onslaught and gave ground easily. Compare this to say, Obi-Wan barely able to give ground before Anakin on Mustafar. It's obvious to anyone with two open eyes that Oppress isn't challenging them in this melee.



Level ground is not the same as level playing field. When the droids began firing, the 2 vs 1 melee broke up entirely, and all parties focused on not being shot to pieces. Oppress puts up an impressive defense for a few seconds before being shot up and then rawr!TK waving droids only to bound away and escape. This isn't overwhelming so much as barely surviving.

I think you're confusing indirect feats of impressiveness with combat experience and feats that would relate to the fight I presented in the original post.



Oppress continually invokes rage to keep himself strong, which makes sense because it is a Sith doctrine invoked by beserker types such as Oppress and others. Considering he goes all Hulk-smash every time he does something particularly profound with the Force indicates that he needs to fuel his rage to get those above-average results. Dooku's vicious shocks brought him to his knees, but eventually pissed him off so much he Force choked both Ventress and Dooku, but I wouldn't put him over either one of them in combat.

Do we have any other videos of Oppress fighting?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To further elaborate on that, Oppress rawr!Force choked both Ventress and Dooku later on who were distracted with fighting each other, yet we can all agree Dooku and perhaps Ventress are wella head of him in mastery of the Force. In a setting without plot-induced distractions, Dooku or Ventress could likely block TK, and Dooku could probably outright dodge Oppress' blows and shock him to death.

Agreed. They did bitchslap him across a room 2 seconds later with Tk and lightning after all.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
Agreed. They did bitchslap him across a room 2 seconds later with Tk and lightning after all.

Explain to me how their effective but combined use of power conclusively demonstrates superiority over Opress for both of them. Dooku is clearly Savage's superior in both swordsmanship and Force mastery, but no case has been made yet for Ventress.

Nephthys
Ventress uses a Force Push. He goes flying through the air. Simple.

All Dooku did was lightning him again.

Stealth Moose
I sense a budding fanboyism for Oppress! Who knew?

Turr_Phennir
SM
So the point I made remains:

How is this small excerpt where neither party appears to want to kill the other on hazardous ground with the distraction of the hostage relevant to a neutral setting death match?

Answer: it isn't.

This discussion is ultimately about which party (Opress or Kenobi & Skywalker) dominated the other. Your attempt to argue that Opress didn't dominate is underminedcompromised entirely by the fact that in both of their confrontations, Opress dominated them, whether it was through sheer physical strength or raw Force energy. I have successfully proven that Opress was similarly disinterested in killing the Jedi during their confrontation on Toydaria, but that didn't stop him from disabling them casually and escaping. Both parties suffered from the same handicap, one party had the advantage of numbers and combat experience and the added benefit of an uncooperative captive with which Opress had to deal, and it was still the other party who cleaned house.

You, Korto, and Neph can argue otherwise as long as you like: the uncomfortable fact of the situation is that Anakin and Kenobi are never in a position of advantage over Opress that was by their own doing. Not once. Meanwhile, I can argue otherwise for Opress.



Why not? Because he didn't cause them long-term damage?



Dooku is clearly superior in terms of both Force strength and mastery. Ventress might very well be ahead in terms of mastery (knowledge and technique) but there is absolutely no indication that she's even close in terms of raw strength.



Speculation and weak speculation with regards to Ventress, but with Dooku, I agree.



Comparing Opress to Dooku is irrelevant; I'm not arguing that he's on par with the Count. Still, Opress's telekinetic powers are formidable and simply because he doesn't apply them in the way that Dooku does (i.e. collapsing bulkheads on prone Jedi, etc.) doesn't mean he can't, unless it takes a special technique of telekinesis to the things that Dooku does.



He doesn't have the advantage because they were on hover platforms, Janus. If anything, they did, because it afforded them maneuverability enough to avoid engaging him on his terms: namely close enough for him to apply his superior size and strength against them. That he had the advantage was because he seized it, not because it was given to him by fate.



And despite their vastly greater combat experience, greater numbers, and Skywalker's superior raw strength in the Force, they were unable to stop him in any scenario.



I'm not attempting to use Opress's throttling of Dooku and Ventress, because it was clearly the result of battle rage.



The fact remains that Opress endured disadvantages the Jedi did not during their first duel and still emerged in a position of dominance. I'm not sure why you're trying to handwave that.



That's a bold claim. One wonders why, if he wasn't a challenge, that they didn't immediately gain the upper hand and subdue him.



The fact that all the droids and the Jedi were on their asses and/or faces indicates that it was overwhelming. It's absolutely silly to think that the two are mutually exclusive; Opress was repeatedly injured first by Dooku and then by the droids throughout his final stay on the dreadnought. He put two of the Jedi's most seasoned warriors on the defensive and floored a contingent of Separatist droids. That he chose to flee because of the superior odds and injuries doesn't diminish the fact that he flattened them all with telekinesis. Would you describe Dooku's performance on Geonosis as "barely surviving"? Because, boy did he sure leave in a hurry.



A couple of times throughout the other episodes of the Opress arc, but I'm not sure if it was with a lightsaber. I'll check.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
All Dooku did was lightning him again.

facepalm

At the 5:53 mark, Dooku's Force lightning hurls Opress across the room. If you're thinking WTF, I mean to suggest that you have no way of determining whether that was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis. Now with that in mind,





Yup, because if anyone argues for anyone other than Dooku and Ragnos, it's fanboyism. Good to know.

thumb up

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir


You, Korto, and Neph can argue otherwise as long as you like: the uncomfortable fact of the situation is that Anakin and Kenobi are never in a position of advantage over Opress that was by their own doing. Not once. Meanwhile, I can argue otherwise for Opress.

1. The advantage in the non-fight first part was situational - the Jedi weren't trying to kill him (which they would in this hypothetical versus match), and the hovering platforms provided an uneven and dangerous arena for any fight, to the death or not.

2. In the second fight, Oppress' Force mastery over Obi-Skywalker duo is a Force push which they immediately recover from. Aside from TKing them away while they were trying to wrestle him (When they were distracted) and TKing Ventress-Dooku while they were distracted, we have no evidence of straightforward Force use which is effective in a neutral dueling setting.

That might be uncomfortable for you, but it is the truth.



1. No long term damage/incapacitation.

2. He wasn't able to use it to conclusively bring down two fighters. I mean, if use of TK to cover your escape is evidence of martial prowess, Dooku effectively "overwhelmed" Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time.



Ventress' relative strength is debatable. Both Dooku and Sidious thought her Force powers were a threat though, and her knowledge was considerable compared to Oppress at this point. But any Force user worth their salt can block TK if they're not engaged.



Dooku's known throughout the Order before he left for being a master of TK and a master of mixing the Force with his archaic dueling style. But my point is that Dooku's mastery of both of the above make it so that he can outfight multiple opponents without the need for in-close action. Dooku regularly TKs/shocks opponents even unarmed. Consider Ventress and the Nightsisters' attack; drugged and unarmed for the most part, he defeats all three using Force powers. In SW, it's extremely rare to see those who can win fights based on Force use alone. Sidious and Yoda come to mind, perhaps Mace Windu.

But to get to the bottom of it - Do you really believe that Oppress will win a fight against Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto on the merit of him having TK'd Jedi before without taking them out of the fight for more than a few seconds?



You're missing the point.

His use of TK (read: his only real Force showing against Obi-Wan and Anakin in this scrap fight) was aided by the fact that they were trying to pin him for the titleship belt and the fact that when he shoved them back, they had nothing to land on.

I can't make that any more obvious. Again, this isn't about how clever or opportunistic Oppress is or isn't; it's about the fact that his TK's advantage was entirely tied to the situation involving hovering platforms. In the Jedi Temple library, he's not going to be fighting Kit and Obi-Wan on Mega Man-esque platforms either.



Every major Force user gets Force pushed and caught off guard in the series. Damn near every one. Yoda, Sidious, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, etc.

This isn't a showing above anything we've seen before. And furthermore, it did not decisively win the battle for Oppress. He was unable to take advantage of it, period.



Fair enough.



Because it's not relevant to the fight. He did not "win" the first scrap through superior saber use. If anything, Obi-Wan deflected his one-handed swipes with contemptuous ease on that narrow platform, and later on in the corridor he is casually held off. In terms of Force use (which is never a decisive factor for victory in the movie-era unless your name ends with 'ku, 'atine, or 'oda) his first wave was successful because the Jedi had nothing to really land on and recover, while his second was only successful in distancing himself from the Jedi who immediately recovered.

None of this makes him "win" a fight against two Jedi, or "overwhelm" them.

Second, to further analyze his uber hostage taking skills, when confronted with the Jedi on either side, he opts instead of say TKing them as they jump or leaping himself to another adjacent pod to throw the hostage in the air and leave himself open. Had it been Sith against him instead of Jedi, GG right there. Saber to ribs, he's dead. His first tactical decision was a poor one because it could have been his end right there. Then he botched the hostage situation by killing his hostage, and was fortunate enough to be able to push the Jedi back and then capitalize on their unfortunate situation.

This doesn't translate into overwhelming martial victory.



No, it's a rational claim. We've seen struggling. AotC, Obi and Anakin struggled with Dooku, who rocked their worlds. In RotS, Obi-Wan struggles with Anakin, who is battering him and the former is giving ground in a hectic, sloppy manner. Oppress is simply attacking in a straight-forward way, no doubt limited by the hallway, but the Jedi maintain their waving blades of defense easily. He does not stomp them, nor does he seem to overcome their defenses.



Rose-colored glasses much?

Oppress was not engaged in combat with the Jedi when he was surrounded by the droids. He was being peppered with blaster bolts and then unleashed a TK wave which gave him the chance to run away. Good for him.

By this kind of logic, Dooku overwhelmed three Jedi at Geonosis.



See above. You're not thinking rationally and using the evidence in appropriate context here, all you're doing is viewing Oppress' feats through borderline fanboy goggles and construing any and all advantages he had as absolute and ultimate ones, and that's fallacious at best.

I could see if Oppress was battering the JEdi, they were panicking and sweating and afraid of imminent loss when the droids engage, and then he casually TKs everyone and walks away a winner. He doesn't. The Jedi gave ground intelligently, letting the warrior tire himself out so they could finish him. The limited headspace in the corridor meant that flanking and jumping was out of the question, so it was a matter of who made the first mistake. There was no conclusive advantage on either side period. And Obi/Anakin being caught in a TK wave does not translate into victory for that scenario either.



Please do. I'd like to see more.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Yup, because if anyone argues for anyone other than Dooku and Ragnos, it's fanboyism. Good to know.

thumb up

http://i53.tinypic.com/28c2ird.png

Turr_Phennir
4tO6mIyNAzg&feature=related

Opress's first fight as Dooku's apprentice begins at the 5:03 mark.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
facepalm

At the 5:53 mark, Dooku's Force lightning hurls Opress across the room. If you're thinking WTF, I mean to suggest that you have no way of determining whether that was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis. Now with that in mind,

His Force Lightning hurls him across the room? erm


Dooku hits him like 4 times with lightning previously and he doesn't go hurtling through the air, merely forced to his knees, but does this time? Yeah, bullshit.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
His Force Lightning hurls him across the room? erm


Dooku hits him like 4 times with lightning previously and he doesn't go hurtling through the air, but does this time? Yeah, bullshit.

Take it up with the source material, sweetie. erm

Nephthys
What does that even mean?

Turr_Phennir
Neph
What does that even mean?

That according to the source material Dooku, like Sidious, is capable of lifting opponents' bodily with Force lightning if so inclined. If you mean to argue that a direct application of telekinesis was used, prove it. Otherwise, you can't successfully argue that it was Ventress and Ventress alone who hurled Opress across the room as Dooku applied Force lightning.

Consider when Windu was shot out of the Chancellor's office by Palpatine's Force lightning,



No mention of telekinesis. Clearly it is inherent in the nature of the attack; Sith can torturously immobilize their opponents or use Force lightning to remove them from the floor, as when Dooku hurled Ventress and her two Nightsister companions from his palace window.

Nephthys
haermm What you think Windu gets hit by Sids lightning, gets electrocuted for a good ten seconds and then gets hit by the impact?


Or how about when Dookus lightning hurled Anakin sideways?! laughing

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I sense a budding fanboyism for Oppress! Who knew?

Saying Oppress is considerably more powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress is Fanboyism??

The CW episodes made that clear. If you cant see that then the problem here isnt Oppress fanboyism, but Oppress Haters..

Turr_Phennir
Neph
haermm What you think Windu gets hit by Sids lightning, gets electrocuted for a good few seconds and then gets hit by the impact?






haermm

You have anything by way of proof beyond personal incredulity?

Nephthys
laughing Hey, I never said that it can't hit with actual force, I'm just amused by the examples you provided. Palpatine clearly whacked him out of the window with TK.

Now explain why Dooku's lightning previously only drove him to his knees, but now can punt him across the room.

Nephthys
Though I'll note the lightning is a different color than Palpatines.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
laughing Hey, I never said that it can't hit with actual force, I'm just amused by the examples you provided. Palpatine clearly whacked him out of the window with TK.

Now explain why Dooku's lightning previously only drove him to his knees, but now can punt him across the room.

Good points, really.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
laughing Hey, I never said that it can't hit with actual force,

You didn't have to.
Clearly you didn't believe Force lightning alone could do the trick otherwise you wouldn't have attempted to assert that Dooku's attack was insufficient to hurl Opress backwards and instead was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis.







Application. At times, Dooku simply wanted to punish; other times, he wanted Opress away from him.

LjnMb8xQ1zM&feature=fvst

To further nail the coffin shut on whether or not Force lightning is capable of telekinetic properties, at 2:50 and 4:35, Palpatine is capable of hurling Kota aside like a ragdoll.

If you intend to argue that an application of telekinesis outside of Force lightning was at play here, it's your burden to prove.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Saying Oppress is considerably more powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress is Fanboyism??

The CW episodes made that clear. If you cant see that then the problem here isnt Oppress fanboyism, but Oppress Haters..

Let's have a moment of silence for all the times DARTH POWER has left us with gems of well-thought out wisdom.

http://i51.tinypic.com/10sc5sk.jpg

Nephthys
o no he di'int!

Turr_Phennir
DP
Saying Oppress is considerably more powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress is Fanboyism??

The CW episodes made that clear. If you cant see that then the problem here isnt Oppress fanboyism, but Oppress Haters..





Actually, he has a point. Mom jokes, jabs, and insults are all well and good and enthusiastically encouraged. But accusations of fanboyism are of an entirely different nature; rather than jabs, they teeter on ad hominem attacks simply because you and I disagree about Opress's skills relative to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I would suggest that you try to dial down those remarks, given the damn near infinite reservoir of ammunition an opponent would have to use against you when it comes to accusations of fanboyism, in which case this entire thread will devolve into both parties accusing the other of being hopelessly biased.

All of this is to say that he who lives in a glass house ought not hurl accusations of fanboyismstones. wink

Turr_Phennir
Neph
Though I'll note the lightning is a different color than Palpatines.

laughing out loud

Profile worthy.

Lucius
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's have a moment of silence for all the times DARTH POWER has left us with gems of well-thought out wisdom.

http://i51.tinypic.com/10sc5sk.jpg

I had to learn about that painting in Art History.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Actually, he has a point. Mom jokes, jabs, and insults are all well and good and enthusiastically encouraged. But accusations of fanboyism are of an entirely different nature; rather than jabs, they teeter on ad hominem attacks simply because you and I disagree about Opress's skills relative to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I would suggest that you try to dial down those remarks, given the damn near infinite reservoir of ammunition an opponent would have to use against you when it comes to accusations of fanboyism, in which case this entire thread will devolve into both parties accusing the other of being hopelessly biased.

All of this is to say that he who lives in a glass house ought not hurl accusations of fanboyismstones. wink

That's like the political correctness of KMC, I love the double standard it represents.

If I really felt you were a raging Oppress fanboy, I'd have already visited MemeGenerator.com and celebrated the new diversity in your stance. But I was just messing with you and you totally fell for it, so I win.

Don't get excited bro. I'm actually rather enjoying us debating a new character around here who has live action evidence behind his feats.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
laughing out loud

Profile worthy.

Electric Judgement.


btw I'm eating which is why no serious reply is happening.

Turr_Phennir
SM
That's like the political correctness of KMC, I love the double standard it represents.

If I really felt you were a raging Oppress fanboy, I'd have already visited MemeGenerator.com and celebrated the new diversity in your stance. But I was just messing with you and you totally fell for it, so I win.

Don't get excited bro. I'm actually rather enjoying us debating a new character around here who has live action evidence behind his feats.

Just wanting to keep things in perspective here, brohanski.

There's this one guy who I used to argue with on certain subjects and he loved to throw out insults and jabs but absolutely hated it when I cast them in return, and after a particularly nasty incident between the two of us, I had to get all politically correct in order to avoid hurting his feelings and wouldn't you know that it didn't stop him from acting belligerent? sneer

Nephthys
reported

Turr_Phennir
Neph
Electric Judgement.

laughing out loud



I'd say the lack of serious reply is due to the fact that the responses are coming from you, not because you're eating. 131

Nephthys
Reported x 2 Combo!

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Just wanting to keep things in perspective here, brohanski.

There's this one guy who I used to argue with on certain subjects and he loved to throw out insults and jabs but absolutely hated it when I cast them in return, and after a particularly nasty incident between the two of us, I had to get all politically correct in order to avoid hurting his feelings and wouldn't you know that it didn't stop him from acting belligerent? sneer

Yeah, just checking. A long history of antagonism doesn't help us filter each other's posts. But enforcing PC and maturity on KMC is like selling sand buggies to Eskimos.

Turr_Phennir
SM
Yeah, just checking. A long history of antagonism doesn't help us filter each other's posts. But enforcing PC and maturity on KMC is like selling sand buggies to Eskimos.

Well as I said elsewhere, none of this is personal for moi. stoned

Turr_Phennir
Neph
Reported x 2 Combo!

Good, good. I can feel your hatred...................

Stealth Moose
That being said, my argument wins.

/thread.

Turr_Phennir
SM
That being said, my argument wins.

/thread.

Your argument faylz because Anakin and Obi-Wan never got the upper hand and Opress did and he winz

Stealth Moose
Neither did he get the upper hand or win.

You never did address my previous reply.

Turr_Phennir
SM
Neither did he get the upper hand or win.

no expression

I'll bite: how did the fight look to you?



Well first I want to establish whether we watched the same clip. mmm

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
no expression

I'll bite: how did the fight look to you?



Well first I want to establish whether we watched the same clip. mmm

Lawlz.

I'll watch the second clip here in a bit. I think you're confusing momentary advantage with decisive victory here. Again, it's not unlike saying something like "Dooku beat Yoda because he was able to hold off Yoda better than anyone else in the series and win the fight by using his OMG TK to drop something on Anakin and Obi-Wan". You can also spice it up with "overwhelm", "dominate", and "Made the Jedi his *****", but it's still misconstruing the point.

Would Oppress be a good challenge for Obi and Anakin and by extension Kit Fisto? Sure. Do I think they'd walk all over him? No. So don't argue as if you address that; argue objectively about his "advantages". The point remains that Oppress uses the Force in bursts to separate himself from his foes, but he does not conclusively overcome them with it or sabers. Hell, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan "drove back" Maul in the same way Oppress "drove back" the Jedi. Yet it was clear in the end who was superior.

Turr_Phennir
Opress drove back Opress wut

Stealth Moose
I edited that just now.

Eminence
Janus stop spelling it with two 'p's.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Eminence
Janus stop spelling it with two 'p's.

Oppess.

Now I'm going to do it to piss you off.

Win.

Turr_Phennir
SM
Yet it was clear in the end who was superior.

Wait, what? Are you saying they were superior to Opress or are you referring to Maul and his combatants?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Wait, what? Are you saying they were superior to Opress or are you referring to Maul and his combatants?

Dude, reading comprehension. Put the Red Bull and cocain down and reread:



1. The obvious point is that Oppess is being contrasted with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM. To understand this, you have to remember the battle and/or review it for comparison.

2. Oppess drives his foes back with an aggressive assault in combat, whether it's Force driven or saber combat. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used Ataru, and aggressive fighting style, with limited TK. In both cases, their opponents acted defensively, giving ground and waiting for the opportunity to strike.

3. It would be folly to assume that the aggressors are superior because the others give ground on that alone. So objectively, we would not come to this conclusion without sufficient evidence elsewhere.

4. In the only neutral setting combat we see in that video Oppess drives his goes back, but gains no tactical advantage or utilizes any openings (in the video I didn't see any openings).

5. It's reasonable to assume that simply driving them back isn't an indication of superiority, as experienced opponents will sometimes give ground to wait for openings.

Conclusion: The above comparison draws to light the point that Oppess was not necessarily the victor because he "drove them back". This, coupled with the previous arguments against Oppess' inability to actually TKO anyone with the Force, ruins ur argumentz.

Turr_Phennir
I was simply asking for clarification. I understand the point of your analogy, but it could very well have followed that you were asserting that, as was the case with Maul and co., that the aggressors were actually inferior to the defender, hence why I asked rather than assumed. wink

SM
Dude, reading comprehension. Put the Red Bull and cocain down and reread:

laughing out loud

This is going in the profile.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's have a moment of silence for all the times DARTH POWER has left us with gems of well-thought out wisdom.



Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I was simply asking for clarification. I understand the point of your analogy, but it could very well have followed that you were asserting that, as was the case with Maul and co., that the aggressors were actually inferior to the defender, hence why I asked rather than assumed. wink



laughing out loud

This is going in the profile.

Oh snap, grammar fail!



I love people who resolve observational arguments with "derp, it's clear evidence shown on screen". Because nothing resolves conflict like telling people it's true without demonstrating the logical reasons why with an argument.

http://littleimg.com/pthumbs/large/1198/LogicFAIL.jpg

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You didn't have to.
Clearly you didn't believe Force lightning alone could do the trick otherwise you wouldn't have attempted to assert that Dooku's attack was insufficient to hurl Opress backwards and instead was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis.

Nope! I merely pointed out that his lightning had nowhere near the same potency earlier. In future you should remember that when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.



What? erm

They were ****ing fighting.



Dude, I know it can hit with force. It hurled Yoda backwards in the movie remember.

That does not give it telekinetic properties though. no expression



Well how about that Dookus lightning hadn't previously caused him to hurtle across the room and that Ventress Force Pushed him? I'm pretty sure the Force Push stands as 'an application of telekinesis outside of Force lightning' don't you?

Korto Vos
Jeez, I'm gone for a day and this thread has runaway lol.

Anyway, back to watching UM vs. ND...Go Blue!

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
4tO6mIyNAzg&feature=related

Opress's first fight as Dooku's apprentice begins at the 5:03 mark.

Okay, finally watched this. First thoughts?

1. Good intro for the character. Nice to see the darker side of the show.

2. His physical strength is again showcased. He can lift a grown Zabrak above shoulder level and break his neck with one hand.

3. Good to see a Jedi using hand to hand combat in an aggressive, rapid way.

4. Opress easily slaughters a Jedi and padawan of unknown prowess who do not fight as a single unit.

5. Anyone else thought that the Republic defense plan at that temple door was just plain stupid? "Stand in staggered formation and fire straight ahead! Victory is ours! Oh shit, some Zabrak with a metal polearm!"

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose




I love people who resolve observational arguments with "derp, it's clear evidence shown on screen". Because nothing resolves conflict like telling people it's true without demonstrating the logical reasons why with an argument.



Righhhhttt... So I need to logically explain to you why Maul is > Qui-Gon, and why Dooku is > Obi-Wan, because clearly without Vulcan logic nobody could deduce that just from the fights we've seen on screen... Hmmm Yeah your right Stealth, my logic could never touch your level (and wouldn't want to tbh)

Where did Obi-One show he even touches Oppress's league??

When was the last time Obi-Wan threw away 3 Destroyer droids plus a load of battle droids and 2 Jedi with a force wave??

When did Obi-Wan ever put Dooku on the floor in close combat??

As for all the Oppress vs Obi-Wan fights, it was Oppress constantly driving back Obi-Wan (and Anakin) in the lightsaber battle, and it was Oppress who chucked Obi-Wan (and Anakin) across a large room with the Force..

What has Obi-Wan showed? Nothing. This is a completely one sided thread. But yeah great logic Stealth thumb up

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Righhhhttt... So I need to logically explain to you why Maul is > Qui-Gon, and why Dooku is > Obi-Wan, because clearly without Vulcan logic nobody could deduce that just from the fights we've seen on screen... Hmmm Yeah your right Stealth, my logic could never touch your level (and wouldn't want to tbh)

No, it wouldn't "touch my level". You're completely missing the point:

Simply saying "Derp, it's on screen, this is what happened, end debate" isn't proving anything. Everyone has different (read: subjective) viewpoints from which they observe and judge events. Rarely will two people will see a piece of evidence and come to the same conclusions unless there is a clear argument in favor of that conclusion.

Your stance is this: "It's on the screen, therefore it's self-evident". This isn't an argument, it's proof by assertion. If you intend to argue that point conclusively, you have to demonstrate your reasoning with specific events, sources, and rational arguments. The whole "Derp de derp, ur wrong lol" approach only serves to remind us of how awesomely mature you are with your all-caps screen name.



This isn't a logical argument. You assume that Opress is beyond Obi-Wan's league by asserting that Obi-Wan hasn't touched anyone "in" his league. You haven't substantiated what league Opress is in using sources.



Here you are arguing a specific feat unrelated to Force user to Force user combat and expanding it into a clear showing of martial superiority. The problem with this feat is twofold: neither Anakin or Obi-Wan were directly attempting to absorb/redirect the TK, and it does not give Opress a clear-cut advantage in neutral combat. Opress unleashed a tremendous wave of power in a short burst because he was enraged due to the beating he had taken for the last few minutes and the fact that the droids were almost killing him.

It's not like he spams this without a care in the world in combat and it totally incaps his foes; it doesn't. So don't argue it as the absolute end when it's a mere facet of his ability and one that's not conclusive to boot.



In three passes, without even using his saber, Dooku has Opress on the ground.

Even thouh Opress is angry at Dooku's taunts, he is disarmed in a few short parries. Mind you, Dooku is using one hand style against Opress, who is immensely strong.

Opress rushes blindly at Dooku in a rage and is floored.

I'd like you to demonstrate when Obi-Wan ever demonstrated such horrible technique against Dooku. Please.



Missing the point. Opress, as the aggressive, enraged fighter, fights offensively. He must move forward, because defense is not his style and does not benefit him. Obi-Wan is a defensive fighter, and Anakin has a tight defense too, even though he favors the strong arm approach. So when Opress begins to windmill towards them, and there's no room to flank him, it is perfectly logical to give ground and hold a tight weave of defense.

This does not conclusively prove they are weaker. If anything, it proves they are smarter than Opress, who - while brutal and shimmering with potential - is a stupid brute in combat, as Dooku showed quite well.

Secondly, the Force push (which may have benefited from the rage Opress was feeling before they came in), isn't conclusive either. Why? Because momentary advantages with surprise TK are extremely common in the SW series.

Opress, after being shocked by Force lightning seven times, goes rawr and TK's both Ventress and Dooku. We would not argue that, based on this one instance, Opress > Dooku. And this is especially true seeing as Dooku routinely humiliates the less skilled Opress in all previous media.

Opress' Dark Side Rage STR boost after this is considerable, but it's entirely conditional. It took a hell of a beating and a lot of resentment against his foes to unleash. And even then, he was all balls, no measure.

To reiterate: Opress is enraged, having been humiliated by Ventress and Dooku, and they are apparently beyond his reach. Enter Obi-Wan and Anakin.

In his rage, he TK's them both out of the room. They recover within moments.

Later in the same video, we see Ventress surprise Dooku by TKing his blade slightly away from her and instead hitting the steam pipe. Keep in mind that Dooku had just disarmed her using TK alone. We would not assume Ventress "overwhelmed" Dooku in this case; she simply profited from the element of surprise.



Nothing? Now I know you're talking out of your ass. Obi-Wan has defeated Maul, Ventress, Grievous, and Anakin Skywalker in combat. Who has Opress defeated? Halsey the relative unknown and his Nautolan apprentice?

Obi-Wan versus Dooku, AotC. This is before his subsequent growth in the Clone Wars, where he fought many skilled opponents and usually came out alive if not entirely on top.

Notice how even though he relinquished the advantage to Dooku in attacking head on, he still maintained an in-close defense unlike Savage "Whups, where'd my saber go" Opress.

Anakin and Obi-Wan versus Dooku, RotS.

Anakin and Obi-Wan work in concert to try and flank Count Dooku. Anakin in particular acts as a distraction, hammering right at the Count while Obi-Wan circles for a flanking maneuver. Dooku, fighting defensively, manages to avoid being pinched in their attack.

This is a smart tactical move in combat. Kit Fisto has trained extensively with Obi-Wan before, and he favors an aggressive and somewhat hard to predict style similar to Anakin, yet as evidenced in his fight with Grievous he still maintains an intelligent defense. And he tooled Grievous faster than even Obi-Wan in this melee, even if he did have the element of surprise for a few seconds, he relinquished it and was beating Grievous head-on.

Now... what were you saying about Obi-Wan having nothing on Opress? Because I'm pretty sure I just obliterated your argument.

DARTH POWER
^ Lol @ obliterating my argument. Those are some of the worst arguments iv seen on these forums simply because your just arguing from a view of complete denial of the league Oppress is in. Will address your points later when I have time.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're completely missing the point:

Simply saying "Derp, it's on screen, this is what happened, end debate" isn't proving anything. Everyone has different (read: subjective) viewpoints from which they observe and judge events. Rarely will two people will see a piece of evidence and come to the same conclusions unless there is a clear argument in favor of that conclusion.

Your stance is this: "It's on the screen, therefore it's self-evident". This isn't an argument, it's proof by assertion. If you intend to argue that point conclusively, you have to demonstrate your reasoning with specific events, sources, and rational arguments. The whole "Derp de derp, ur wrong lol" approach only serves to remind us of how awesomely mature you are with your all-caps screen name.

Actually its you who has completely missed my point and chose not to address the specific examples I gave. Sometimes you are just shown on screen 2 people fight and one clearly being superior.

Examples are Maul vs Qui-Gon, Dooku vs Obi-Wan..

Now are you really suggesting we need more evidence than what we saw on screen to prove Maul > Qui-Gon, or that Dooku > Obi-Wan???

Im suggesting from what we saw of their fight on screen Opress's superiority to Obi-Wan is as clear as those 2 above examples.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This isn't a logical argument. You assume that Opress is beyond Obi-Wan's league by asserting that Obi-Wan hasn't touched anyone "in" his league. You haven't substantiated what league Opress is in using sources.

Again what I have been asserting is that Opress is in a league above Obi-Wan based on:

1) Their fights against each other.
2) Opress's feats which in 2 episodes of CW are beyond anything Obi-Wan has shown... Like Ever.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Here you are arguing a specific feat unrelated to Force user to Force user combat and expanding it into a clear showing of martial superiority. The problem with this feat is twofold: neither Anakin or Obi-Wan were directly attempting to absorb/redirect the TK,

Very poor excuse especially considering it wasn't the first time he Force threw them..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and it does not give Opress a clear-cut advantage in neutral combat. Opress unleashed a tremendous wave of power in a short burst because he was enraged due to the beating he had taken for the last few minutes and the fact that the droids were almost killing him.

So what if he was enraged? He did it, and was using his rage to produce a tremendous amout of Power (way beyond the likes of Obi-Wan) for a good few minutes. Theres absolutely nothing suggesting he wnt be able to let loose like that again. And considering you made this thread specifying everyone is in their Prime as of the CW just makes your point here even more moot.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In three passes, without even using his saber, Dooku has Opress on the ground.

Even thouh Opress is angry at Dooku's taunts, he is disarmed in a few short parries. Mind you, Dooku is using one hand style against Opress, who is immensely strong.


I'd like you to demonstrate when Obi-Wan ever demonstrated such horrible technique against Dooku. Please.

This here is the worst point you've brought up, while completely ignoring the point I made.

That was Opress's first lesson with Dooku!! Talk about Lowballing! Again your the one who specified the characters are in their Prime as of the CW!

Now to my point you convinently did not address and instead went off on a random rant.. Lets see what Opress was doing after being trained (but before his Rage boost mind you):

With the Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB69fNAFA4E go to 0:43..

Has Obi-Wan Ever thrown a ship that large one handed?? Ever??

And of course their were the multiple stone pillars he was lifting while under pressure from Dooku, but for now Im just gna prove you wrong using the Calm Savage (but after training from Dooku)..

In Close Combat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xbglrc8V44 go to 1:15 up until 1:25..

Dooku has put Ventress to the floor in Lightsaber combat, then at 1:15 Opress challenges Dooku to a one on one in close combat, and by 1:22 he puts Dooku to the floor!! Count friggin Dooku..

Dooku of course dominates him with his Force Lightning before Savage can give the death blow, but when was the last time Obi-Wan put Dooku to the floor (even while fighting alongside Anakin).. Il save you a lot of time checking by telling you Its Never Happened!

So like I said before and like is Obvious to anyone whose watched those episodes (but who are not Savage Haters or not in Complete denial) Obi-Wan has NOTHING on Savage.. Nothing. Savage is a tier above him, in the Force and in close combat. End of.

Stealth Moose
Good lawd, fanboy rage engage!

Let's see if our winner, "DARTH POWAH", can actually manage a decent rebuttal!



Translation: LOLDERP! I'm acting all witty and sarcastic and then immediately saying you're in denial of Opress' league, even if I haven't conclusively proved Opress' league. Burden of proof is on you, derp!



Translation: LOLDERP! I'm still arguing that all perceptions should be uniform and that subjective viewpoints and judgments should not exist because I saw X and therefore if you didn't see X, you're in denial; it's impossible that your point could also be valid because you didn't see it through my eyes.

Candid Rebuttal: Really, Darth Derp, we have to come to a foundation for objective debate before we can continue. If you insist that "LOL stuff is obvious no subjectivity", then I'm not wasting any more time with you. If you cannot point out specifics in media you and I both saw and draw those specifics into a half-assed argument to support your LOLASSERTION, then we're done here. I'm not wasting my time with your foolishness.



Translation: LOLDERP! First point is obvious; Opress is in a higher league because I said/saw that he's in a higher league. Any burden of proof for my argument apparently is axiomatic, and Obi-Wan is inferior which is also axiomatic.

Second point, Opress being humiliated in combat by Dooku, killing two unknown and unimportant Jedi, and later being really strong physically in combat with about four people (none of which he defeated) cements his position well over Obi-Wan Kenobi. Never mind that Kenobi has tons of victories under his belt, that he's known as the foremost defensive fighter in the entire Jedi Order, and that he performs much better against Dooku at a time before his peak than Opress ever did at his peak or ever for that matter.

Me: Basically, Darth Derp, you're hamstringing yourself by arguing Opress' martial prowess based on the two episodes where he's routinely beaten down by everyone and kills two people of no real significance whatsoever. If him being really strong and looking like Darth Maul makes you moist, then so be it. Just admit to the bias. But don't pretend that you're arguing intelligently with things like "LOL it's obvious he's uber, end of debate, Obi sux!"



So... basically, you're saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan suck for not absorbing a rage-fueled Force wave in the middle of a firefight with droids, but Opress - who all but runs into Sith lightning seven, eight times in a single setting - is somehow better?

Are you even reading this before you click "Submit Reply"?



You're missing the point so badly it's sad really.

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

I mean really, are you going to grasp at straws now? So should I argue "Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto, both eating bota, versus Opress who is in rawr!emo mode and Ventress who just broke a nail"?



What universe are you from, exactly?

Opress' showings take place in a very small timeframe, this training being the one which immediately precedes the fight with Anakin/Obi and Ventress/Dooku.

In it, we see Opress being sloppy (a product of his relative inexperience with saber combat and against Force users), and balls-out stupid (because he rages and rushes head-first into all of his fights. This starts at the training and goes right through until the fight with all of the above).

This isn't "low-balling", Opress hasn't shown tremendous growth since the time of this training with Dooku. And if anything, it best shows his fighting style because he does almost the exact same thing later on.



Wait, so let me get this straight...

You think Opress > Obi-wan because he pushed the narrow standing supports of a ship and its own heavy weight caused it to tumble over the side?

You see those sparks? That's him TKing the supports He's not lifting the whole ship up and chucking it, or TKing the entire side of the ship (because if he did, it would move without tipping over, having been hit by equal force).

Doing that is not outside of the realm of Anakin or Obi-Wan, and furthermore, it's not a conclusive way of winning a battle. Unless Obi-Wan is strapped in to said starship and Opress pushes its supports over and Obi-Wan can't get out in time, guess what? This doesn't mean jack.



He had to be enraged to even lift two, whereas Dooku lifted like 6-10 of them without apparent effort. What's your point here? Lifting stuff with TK doesn't equal decisively beating folks in saber fights. Welcome to Star Wars.



LOLDERP. You are basically saying that Opress landing one hit with his humongous retard strength and knocking Dooku down is conclusively making him better than Obi-Wan because.... he's really strong?

Did you miss the part where Dooku was dancing around the blade for seconds there? Or the part before where Dooku disarmed and humiliated Opress with one hand? Opress rage gives him a strength boost, but it's situational. If you're going to argue Opress > Obi-Wan because "when he gets mad, he can knock down Dooku!", you should lose your internet license.

Stealth Moose
Translation: I am reaffirming my bias with proof by assertion. Logos, schmogos, I'm saying you're in denial or you're a Savage hatur because you cannot see how awesome he is. I mean sure, he gets bitchsmacked around like the only ginger in the household and he's only ever beaten two unknowns in combat, but he's somehow better than well-established warriors of renown on the basis that he's rawr!strong, and he can knock people down with TK or his big Donkey Kong arms. Also, he has horns! And a MAUL SABUR!! !OFM#SRGUIBEGF SABUR!!!!!!!

Sorry... Got too "in-character there".

The bottom line, Darth Fail, is that you lose the debate by simply agreeing not to debate. I'm done with you. Here's the cookie for showing up:



http://smithsunion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/GTFO-Angry-Asian.jpg

Zampanó
You just commented recently about how you have missed Advent's "more comprehensive debating style."

Calling names ("Darth Derp"wink doesn't lend itself to a comprehensive argument; it made me not want to read to the end. Being angry about something like this is silly and stupid.

Chill the **** out.

Turr_Phennir
Anakin and Obi-Wan, let alone solo!Kenobi, weren't in a position of legitimate dominance over Opress. Savage, on the other hand, beat the hell out of them, dropped a platform on them, knocked them the fvck out of Dooku's chambers, drove them into the hanger, and flattened them with telekinesis despite being wounded. There's more actual evidence favoring his superiority over them than the reverse, especially since despite all that experience and all those advantages (numbers, distractions, etc.), they came off looking worse.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Anakin and Obi-Wan, let alone solo!Kenobi, weren't in a position of legitimate dominance over Opress. Savage, on the other hand, beat the hell out of them, dropped a platform on them, knocked them the fvck out of Dooku's chambers, drove them into the hanger, and flattened them with telekinesis despite being wounded. There's more actual evidence favoring his superiority over them than the reverse, especially since despite all that experience and all those advantages (numbers, distractions, etc.), they came off looking worse.

Eh?

1. Opress didn't "beat the hell" out of anybody. He spent more time on his knees then a Thai hooker, so this is moot.

2. Opress opened himself up to immediate death within moments of being flanked by Obi/Ani during the hostage skirmish. Really.

3. Because they had no footing on the hover pods, he was able to seize the momentary advantage and drop the current pod on top of them. This isn't a show of battle awesomeness so much as a show of sheer luck. Next you'll be arguing that Sidious outbattled Yoda because he happened to have a rail on his side of the pod.

4. Opress TKing them out of the chamber is not clear dominance because

a - He was enraged at losing Ventress and Dooku, and thus channeled his rage into that singular push. In each instance of Opress using "exceptional" TK, it's almost always rage/pain which brings it about, and always in small bursts.

b - They got right back up again. Hell, when Obi-Wan and Anakin TK'd each other they didn't get up that fast. How are you basing superiority on a Force push? Really? So Yoda is superior to Sidious because he can Force push him?

5. If driving them into the hangar is indicative of superiority, then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were superior to Maul, having "driven" him back into the circular chamber of death.

Or perhaps you know, they were aggressively fighting and he was intelligently defending, waiting for an opening. Could be that too.

6. Rawr!Force TK wave, caused by imminent droid-fire death and barely contained rage, which no one was expecting or defending against, and had no decisive advantage because he used that opportunity to run away means nothing, basically. I mean, if Opress was so goddamn superior, why did he run away from prone opponents? Could it be he knew he wasn't going to win? Or was his martial superiority imminent in his running away really fast?

I'm still not seeing the validity of pro-Opress arguments here. I admit that, in the context of the thread, Ventress AND Opress may prove to be a challenge for Kit/Obi and may even beat them. But this idea of Opress being clearly head and shoulders above Obi-Anakin is incredibly silly. He doesn't even have a comparable victory on his hands to equate to beating one of them separately.



Really?

You realize that my initial response was to this, right:

Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.

DARTH POWER basically attacked from a position of disdain, saying I "denied clear evidence", that I rationalize denial, and I have apparently usual "crap", that I come out with to "justify insane arguments."

Then I basically gave him a chance in defending his position with something other than his swelled arrogance, and he simply stonewalled me with more ignorance. I then e-mocked him in the most immature way for sport.

How does this offend you and concern you?

When did I do anything to warrant being talked down to from you?

This isn't the first time you've called me out, Nemmy. If you have an issue, let's get it in the clear please, because I'm not fond of being ridiculed by someone I haven't consciously wronged. If you don't approve of my routine of using unyielding opponents for fun (no homo), then by all means, ignore me. But don't talk down to me like you're a saint. That's just insulting.

Turr_Phennir
no expression

Opress casually removed them from his back the moment he felt so inclined, he outmaneuvered them on the platform and left them to die, he hurled them from Dooku's chambers with contemptuous ease (where is the evidence that that was the product of uber!rage?), he drove them back into the hanger despite the fact that Anakin Skywalker is a Force-boosted anomaly in excess of Savage in that he simply gets stronger as a fight progresses (not to mention the fact that they drove Dooku back during their duel in Revenge of the Sith, who is exponentially more skilled than Opress), and again flattened them with telekinesis.

For someone who's keen on arguing that either one is superior to Opress, you sure seem to be fairly light on evidence. How bizarre that despite their infinitely greater combat experience, superior numbers, and so forth that the only moment of dominance they had was due to a distraction engineered by a third party and was then undermined with ease by Opress?

mmm

To answer your question as to why the "superior" Opress ran, you're neglecting two important facts, one at play during each duel against the Jedi: During the first duel, Opress was under orders to return Katuunko to Dooku, which takes priority over fvcking around with Jedi and during their second duel, Opress was deep in enemy territory, a massive Separatist dreadnought aboard which were legions of hostile droids, two Jedi Knights, and Count fvcking Dooku. While I believe he could best Obi-Wan and Anakin, do not mistake my belief for delusion: He was hardly invincible and those odds don't bode well for him.

Interesting how you interpret his dropping of the platform as luck. For someone who's keen on throwing out the fanboi pejorative to all who oppose him, need I remind you that your oft' cited favorite character from the films is Obi-Wan Kenobi? laughing out loud

And I'm certainly not arguing that his use of telekinesis against the Jedi is a decisive demonstration of superiority, just pointing out where he put them on their asses and where they didn't return the favor.

Turr_Phennir
I think I'm going to hit the sack (no jokez).

Before you unleash your fury a la Opress in an attempt to defeat me, my apprentice, remember that I am teasing you. (Though my points are sincere.)

Zampanó
I don't have an issue with you. I like you.

What I don't like is that you turn from an intelligent, reasonably eloquent contributor into a caricature of the worst the internet has to offer at the drop of a hat. When you are talking about TOR, for example, your posts are intelligent, optimistic, and have several times come close to convincing me to buy the game, despite the flaws everyone else is always moaning about. However, this last post of yours is unpleasant. No joke, I read it in my head with this voice: 5 minute philosophy-- Voltaire wants your feedback. It turns you from someone I respect a lot into something of a joke.

I think it is just the amount of time you've been here; I never had to deal with the 2005 level of shit (Sorgo, for example, never made a post I liked while he was socking last year). Thank you for calling me on it, because in retrospect I realize I've been kind of a ***** without a conscious reason why. Having to explain opened my eyes, if not yours.

Korto Vos
WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS? WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_W5nzghqAXXs/RvY9rJAgQRI/AAAAAAAAAFc/RCLedI0HvEo/s400/woody.jpg



Lol jk

truejedi
This isn't the first time you've called me out, Nemmy. If you have an issue, let's get it in the clear please, because I'm not fond of being ridiculed by someone I haven't consciously wronged. If you don't approve of my routine of using unyielding opponents for fun (no homo), then by all means, ignore me. But don't talk down to me like you're a saint. That's just insulting.

qft here actually. what is up with you recently red?

Borbarad

Zampanó
Nai, note the word "caricature." I'm not saying that it is unforgivable. In fact, until challenged I couldn't have articulated the thought at all. It is just a really ineffective rhetorical strategy; when I hear it I forget about all his other points. Edit: I've been to 4chan. I know what lurks in the hearts of trolls.


tj, I've moved into a dorm and going to class full time. I'm trying to be the sort of person who reads books. I've been doing my homework (which is new). There are enough people around that being anti-social is more work than less. I found this cool play called "Sure Thing" that had an okay performance on youtube.

I flipped over my handlebars yesterday.



Life is good.

SIDIOUS 66
Miguel?

Lucius

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Good lawd, fanboy rage engage!

Let's see if our winner, "DARTH POWAH", can actually manage a decent rebuttal!

Have to admit it is difficult arguing against kiddish arguments.. You ever tried arguing with kids? Its very irritationg just like this is getting.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Translation: LOLDERP! I'm acting all witty and sarcastic and then immediately saying you're in denial of Opress' league, even if I haven't conclusively proved Opress' league. Burden of proof is on you, derp!

Considering it was Opress throwing Obi-Wan around, and you made this completely one sided thread, its upto you to prove exactly how Obi-Wan could possibly be a match for Opress.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Translation: LOLDERP! I'm still arguing that all perceptions should be uniform and that subjective viewpoints and judgments should not exist because I saw X and therefore if you didn't see X, you're in denial; it's impossible that your point could also be valid because you didn't see it through my eyes.

Candid Rebuttal: Really, Darth Derp, we have to come to a foundation for objective debate before we can continue. If you insist that "LOL stuff is obvious no subjectivity", then I'm not wasting any more time with you. If you cannot point out specifics in media you and I both saw and draw those specifics into a half-assed argument to support your LOLASSERTION, then we're done here. I'm not wasting my time with your foolishness.

Are you planning to go into politics? Because thats twice now you've refused to answer my question, and decided to go on a rant again.

Do we need more proof that what we saw on screen to say that :

1) Maul> Qui-Gon
2) Dooku> Obi-Wan

Answer the question and then we can discuss your rant.





Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second point, Opress being humiliated in combat by Dooku,

Yeah because we've never seen Obi-Wan being completely humiliated by Dooku have we??? Oh apart from every time they fought that is.. But apparaently we need more proof then their on screen fights confused

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
killing two unknown and unimportant Jedi, and later being really strong physically in combat with about four people (none of which he defeated)

None of whom he defeated, but three of whom he was defeating, and defeating quite badly..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Never mind that Kenobi has tons of victories under his belt,

None of whom have the feats Opress does (except perhaps Anakin)

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
that he's known as the foremost defensive fighter in the entire Jedi Order,

Wnt help him when he's being force chucked all over the place, or being physically over powered by someone who can pu Dooku on the floor..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and that he performs much better against Dooku at a time before his peak than Opress ever did at his peak or ever for that matter.

Yeah because we've seen Obi-Wan put Dooku on the floor that time in ROTS... Remember?? Cause I dnt! Obi-Wan's never been anything less than useless against Dooku.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If him being really strong and looking like Darth Maul makes you moist, then so be it. Just admit to the bias. But don't pretend that you're arguing intelligently with things like "LOL it's obvious he's uber, end of debate, Obi sux!"

Urmm yeah Im the "Fanboy" here.. Its not obvious because Im guessing, We know because thats what we were shown on screen.. He was shown to be superior with the Force and in close comabt.. What more proof do you need?? Just like we know Maul > Qui-Gon. Or do you need further proof to what we saw in TPM?? Il say one thing though, I would'nt put Opress above Anakin (who he was also throwing around) because we know Anakin's showings are sporadic, and from the ROTS novel, we know he's always held back.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So... basically, you're saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan suck for not absorbing a rage-fueled Force wave in the middle of a firefight with droids, but Opress - who all but runs into Sith lightning seven, eight times in a single setting - is somehow better?

What makes you think they could absorb it, when a couple of episodes earlier they were both getting force choked by Ventress? Obi-Wan and Anakin are not known for their Force YK feats.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Are you even reading this before you click "Submit Reply"?

I really wish I wasnt.. And iv spent long enough replying to your rant, which you probably dnt even deserve a response to, but Im bored now.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're missing the point so badly it's sad really.

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

I mean really, are you going to grasp at straws now? So should I argue "Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto, both eating bota, versus Opress who is in rawr!emo mode and Ventress who just broke a nail"?



What universe are you from, exactly?

Im not getting into this Rage debate now. Because Im tired of replying to you. But basically by the end of the episode, Savage feels betrayed by everyone, and can very easily get into a Rage.. And thats also how Dooku trained him, to feed off his rage. But for arguments sakes lets just debate with what we saw Before his "Rage".,

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Opress' showings take place in a very small timeframe, this training being the one which immediately precedes the fight with Anakin/Obi and Ventress/Dooku.

Proof of time frame please.. And proof of the number of training sessions he had with Dooku before his confrontations with Obi-Wan and Anakin. He clearly was a factor to be dealt with by the time he faced Dooku with Ventress. Whilst in that first training session he wasnt a factor at all.

Opress's training was clearly much much faster than the training of any Jedi. We can presume that has something to do with the magic the nightsisters used on him.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Wait, so let me get this straight...

You think Opress > Obi-wan because he pushed the narrow standing supports of a ship and its own heavy weight caused it to tumble over the side?

You see those sparks? That's him TKing the supports He's not lifting the whole ship up and chucking it, or TKing the entire side of the ship (because if he did, it would move without tipping over, having been hit by equal force).

Doing that is not outside of the realm of Anakin or Obi-Wan, and furthermore, it's not a conclusive way of winning a battle. Unless Obi-Wan is strapped in to said starship and Opress pushes its supports over and Obi-Wan can't get out in time, guess what? This doesn't mean jack.

LOL LOL Theres no point in argiung because you're just in complete denial of all Opress's feats while just making up what Obi-Wan can do! Prove that feat isnt beyond Obi-Wan or shut it. Im done. Thanks for wasting my time!

Nephthys
Everyone should take some lolicon and calm the **** down.

Zam, take double lolicon (twins?).

btw I agree that we could do without the insult stuff.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Lucius
I had already liked to read books,

I like to read books too!

The trick is being the sort of person who actually does. Internet is unbearably addictive for me (I have six harry potter fanfictions open right now) and I'm working on editing my priority list.

Lucius

Stealth Moose

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
no expression

Opress casually removed them from his back the moment he felt so inclined, he outmaneuvered them on the platform and left them to die, he hurled them from Dooku's chambers with contemptuous ease (where is the evidence that that was the product of uber!rage?), he drove them back into the hanger despite the fact that Anakin Skywalker is a Force-boosted anomaly in excess of Savage in that he simply gets stronger as a fight progresses (not to mention the fact that they drove Dooku back during their duel in Revenge of the Sith, who is exponentially more skilled than Opress), and again flattened them with telekinesis.

For someone who's keen on arguing that either one is superior to Opress, you sure seem to be fairly light on evidence. How bizarre that despite their infinitely greater combat experience, superior numbers, and so forth that the only moment of dominance they had was due to a distraction engineered by a third party and was then undermined with ease by Opress?

mmm

To answer your question as to why the "superior" Opress ran, you're neglecting two important facts, one at play during each duel against the Jedi: During the first duel, Opress was under orders to return Katuunko to Dooku, which takes priority over fvcking around with Jedi and during their second duel, Opress was deep in enemy territory, a massive Separatist dreadnought aboard which were legions of hostile droids, two Jedi Knights, and Count fvcking Dooku. While I believe he could best Obi-Wan and Anakin, do not mistake my belief for delusion: He was hardly invincible and those odds don't bode well for him.

Interesting how you interpret his dropping of the platform as luck. For someone who's keen on throwing out the fanboi pejorative to all who oppose him, need I remind you that your oft' cited favorite character from the films is Obi-Wan Kenobi? laughing out loud

And I'm certainly not arguing that his use of telekinesis against the Jedi is a decisive demonstration of superiority, just pointing out where he put them on their asses and where they didn't return the favor.

__________________________________________________
__

^ Everything above this line is wrong except for general spelling and the timestamp.

Turr_Phennir
SM
Having debated here for what? Six years now?

Oh is that what you call it now. sneer

Turr_Phennir
SM
__________________________________________________
__

^ Everything above this line is wrong except for general spelling and the timestamp.

You have posts above that line. sneer

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You have posts above that line. sneer

I get to exclude my own post because I make up the rules about what is and isn't valid. Monopoly of the truth, ftw.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Like in this case, DP is basically ignoring the rules of engagement and arguing out of the depths of his ass,

Actually everything Iv argued is from On Screen T-Canon feats and showings.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
while I made some detailed ........ rational arguments

Neveeerrrrr Happened..


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
which he typically avoided or answered with assertions.

And yet Im the one who never got an answer to "Do we need more than On-Screen evidence to prove that Maul > Qui-Gon and that Dooku > Obi-Wan..." Which I asked about 3 times.. So who was avoiding answering back?? Hmmm..



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Don't let it annoy you. If the voice in your head drives you mad, I suggest imagining doing my posts. I don't mind giving respect to people who are interested in genuine debating (and even though Advent and I rarely saw the same side of things, I strongly respected her way of expressing her viewpoints), but rabble rattling its cage and calling it logic will always illicit a vicious response.

Needless insults are immature and usually signals the frustrated life of the Insulter. End of.

Thats why despite the number of names you called me I never stooped down to your level.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually everything Iv argued is from On Screen T-Canon feats and showings.

Basically, you argued your opinion in this manner:

"X happened, because I saw it happen. Therefore, X is true."

If that's arguing, I successfully argued everything I've ever seen successfully.

This argument fails to address the following:

1. Context.
2. Objectivity
3. Support for Assertion

The context is important because Opress' 'victory' against Obi-Wan and Anakin is entirely dependent upon the limited fighting room of the hovering platforms and the fact that they passed up a clear instance to outright murder him seconds into the 'battle'.

Objectivity is important because you're arguing your own perception as correct without the third item: support. You say "Opress dominated Obi-Wan/Anakin. They had no chance. He's in another league. He's better." When I ask for proof, you say this: "lol, I saw it. You must be in denial".

That isn't proof. You cannot demonstrate specific examples in the video which we all saw and further spell out the logic behind why X means victory for Opress.

Meanwhile, I argue how the context of the fight, using sources mind you, indicates that Opress - while formidable - is not conclusively better than the Jedi he's up against. His strength and size are an advantage, but tactically, he is a fool. He rushes headfirst into battle and danger, he's entirely reliant upon his own rage to fuel his powers to a level above merely impressive, and he's demonstrated lower martial showings against Dooku, who can act as a measurement to Obi-Wan in a sense.

You simply ignore my points, repeat your own endlessly, and dismiss me out of hand. That's argumentum ad lapidem for those at home keeping track.



You'd be surprised, but in the real world, those are arguments.




You've deliberately skirted having to provide proof for anything you've attempted to argue, while needing an answer for the above is a ridiculous way to stack the lack of argument in your favor.

On-screen evidence is still open to discussion and interpretation, because of a wonderful little thing called subjectivity. It is the onus of the debater to use the source material and evidence to illustrate their well-thought out points. An excellent example of this is the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Many people here have seen the fight, and yet come away with different conclusions. Things that were contended included the lifting of the senatorial pods and whether or not Sidious was disarmed.

So simply having visual evidence does not render all opinions and arguments null and void. There's still a common ground to be found. And having a logical argument is the only way to do it.

Saying "Opress is better because I saw him TK some Jedi" doesn't equate to a rational argument, especially when the purpose of the thread is to debate Opress in a neutral setting against Obi and someone entirely new, Kit Fisto. There's also the point of having Ventress in the mix; when Opress fought alongside Ventress, he basically got in her way and dash-slashed at Dooku to no effect whatsoever, only becoming a threat when he got angry.

So really, what does your posturing prove?



I'm sorry, but when you come out of the woodwork and immediately declare all of my previous arguments to be the products of twisted viewpoints and insanity, you lose the right to play the righteous card, DP. To be fair, I gave you one shot to objectively defend yourself and you squandered it. That's one shot more than I give to most people who come out of the gate deliberately attacking my credibility without the least shred of proof.



Sure. Let me know when you can answer the following:

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

When you answer these questions, maybe... just maybe, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, keep playing with your Opress action figure and snorting copious amounts of blow.

Turr_Phennir
The Count's words to Ventress when she pursues him in the bowels of the ship confirm that he doesn't regard her as a credible threat without Opress.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The Count's words to Ventress when she pursues him in the bowels of the ship confirm that he doesn't regard her as a credible threat without Opress.

Considering he can lift his finger and disable her in Dark Rendezvous, I think it's clear that she is never truly a threat. And since Opress was floored multiple times by Dooku in their sparring session, and routinely used as a shock absorber in the latter fight, Opress isn't much of a challenge either.

Turr_Phennir
SM
Considering he can lift his finger and disable her in Dark Rendezvous, I think it's clear that she is never truly a threat. And since Opress was floored multiple times by Dooku in their sparring session, and routinely used as a shock absorber in the latter fight, Opress isn't much of a challenge either.

ermm

Not to halt your Dooku-induced erection, but the fact that the Count fled from them indicates, at the very least, they are a challenge.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
ermm

Not to halt your Dooku-induced erection, but the fact that the Count fled from them indicates, at the very least, they are a challenge.

That or the fact that the Jedi were about to show up and make it one big cluster ****.

The point remains that using sources, Ventress is no match for Dooku even on a good day, and Opress is not any better.

Turr_Phennir
SM
That or the fact that the Jedi were about to show up and make it one big cluster ****.

Again, Dooku's words to Ventress indicate differently: "You're no match for me without your pet."

SM
The point remains that using sources, Ventress is no match for Dooku even on a good day, and Opress is not any better.

A match (i.e. equal)? No. A challenge? Yes.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Again, Dooku's words to Ventress indicate differently: "You're no match for me without your pet."



A match (i.e. equal)? No. A challenge? Yes.

It was pretty obvious that Dooku was dominating the fight until Opress got angry and got a huge jump in physical and Force strength. Even then, Opress' rage gave him only a momentary advantage. He was almost immediately removed from the melee via the superior Force abilities of Ventress and Dooku.

But that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto against Ventress and Opress would be a close fight, but Opress is getting far more credit than he deserves. Pretty much Opress' entire career consists of killing two unknowns and being abused by everyone while getting momentary bursts of berserker strength.

I mean really, this is like arguing Icewind Dale trilogy Wulfgar would beat Drizzt because he's really strong.

Turr_Phennir
SM
It was pretty obvious that Dooku was dominating the fight until Opress got angry and got a huge jump in physical and Force strength.

No real dispute here, though I would refine your claim about Force strength. Opress's strength didn't increase, in that his midichlorian count didn't jump; he simply tapped into it. It was his power made manifest.



How is it that you define Opress's advantage as momentary but paint the advantage afforded by combined use of power on the part of Dooku and Ventress as a definitive one?

mmm



You'll find that your references to obscure fantasy RPGs are lost on me, for the most part. no expression

As for the rest, DP remains correct: Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't fare too well when pitted against Opress.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose


"X happened, because I saw it happen. Therefore, X is true."

Lol it wasnt just me who saw it happen. Thats on screen evidence of Opress's clear superiority over Obi-Wan. When we see Obi-Wan put Dooku on the floor, or see Obi-Wan force TK Opress around the room, or Obi-Wan TK Ventress and Dooku together (even getting them by sruprise) then you have an argument here.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The context is important because Opress' 'victory' against Obi-Wan and Anakin is entirely dependent upon the limited fighting room of the hovering platforms and the fact that they passed up a clear instance to outright murder him seconds into the 'battle'.

Sound more like excuses to me. And not very good ones. Obi-Wan and Anakin have no excuse to be dominated so badly due to "limited space" and "hovering platforms".


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Objectivity is important because you're arguing your own perception as correct without the third item: support.

So its just "my perception" that Savage threw Obi-Wan and Anakin around, forced them back, whilst they never got one good hit on them even together???

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You say "Opress dominated Obi-Wan/Anakin. They had no chance. He's in another league. He's better." When I ask for proof, you say this: "lol, I saw it. You must be in denial".

Lol Iv constantly given proof. The episode was full of proof:

1) His force feats were beyond anything we've ever seen from Obi-Wan.
2) Even with the aid of Anakin friggin Skywalker, all Kenobi managed to do against Opress was get chuked around and put on the floor multiple times. Now im not going to pretend im a combat expert, but im pretty sure being on your ass is not a good position to be in mid-fight.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meanwhile, I argue how the context of the fight, using sources mind you, indicates that Opress - while formidable - is not conclusively better than the Jedi he's up against.

Now thats just your completely speculative opinion, with nothing to back it up.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His strength and size are an advantage, but tactically, he is a fool. He rushes headfirst into battle and danger, he's entirely reliant upon his own rage to fuel his powers to a level above merely impressive, and he's demonstrated lower martial showings against Dooku, who can act as a measurement to Obi-Wan in a sense.

Lol He put Count friggin Dooku on the Floor! Let me know when Obi-Wan accomplishes anything close to that in combat against Dooku. In the meantime your arguments are baseless.




Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You've deliberately skirted having to provide proof for anything you've attempted to argue, while needing an answer for the above is a ridiculous way to stack the lack of argument in your favor.

In other words "Im not gna answer that DP because it would ruin my argument."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
On-screen evidence is still open to discussion and interpretation, because of a wonderful little thing called subjectivity. It is the onus of the debater to use the source material and evidence to illustrate their well-thought out points. An excellent example of this is the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Many people here have seen the fight, and yet come away with different conclusions. Things that were contended included the lifting of the senatorial pods and whether or not Sidious was disarmed.

Urmm yeah because that wasnt a one sided fight. They both got their hits in, and they were both thrown around at some point.

If however that was Yoda AND Mace fighting Sidious, and Sidious was chuking them Both around with the Force, and Forcing them Both back in Sabers as well, then that fight would not be very subjective at all.

But that obviously would never happen, because Sidious is not that much ahead of Yoda or Mace in combat.

Thats a rubbish example you've given there.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sure. Let me know when you can answer the following:

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

When you answer these questions, maybe... just maybe, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, keep playing with your Opress action figure and snorting copious amounts of blow.

Iv already responded to this. But Ok Il respond again. This whole idea of a one-off Force Rage thing that can not be repeated in fair combat is complete hyperbole.

Where is the evidence that it was a one-off anger boost, and not a moment of clarity, like ROTS Zone Anakin having the clarity to use his rage to defeat Count Dooku. Are you telling me that wasn't a legitimate defeat?! Or a legitimate use of his power that could be repeated if he could find that clarity again??

And of course it doesnt help Obi-Wan's case that even before Savage's apparent "Force Rage" he still didnt fair too well against him, even with Anakin's help, and still has done nothing in his whole history of TK feats to match Savage's pre-Rage TK Feats.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol it wasnt just me who saw it happen. Thats on screen evidence of Opress's clear superiority over Obi-Wan. When we see Obi-Wan put Dooku on the floor, or see Obi-Wan force TK Opress around the room, or Obi-Wan TK Ventress and Dooku together (even getting them by sruprise) then you have an argument here.





Sound more like excuses to me. And not very good ones. Obi-Wan and Anakin have no excuse to be dominated so badly due to "limited space" and "hovering platforms".




So its just "my perception" that Savage threw Obi-Wan and Anakin around, forced them back, whilst they never got one good hit on them even together???



Lol Iv constantly given proof. The episode was full of proof:

1) His force feats were beyond anything we've ever seen from Obi-Wan.
2) Even with the aid of Anakin friggin Skywalker, all Kenobi managed to do against Opress was get chuked around and put on the floor multiple times. Now im not going to pretend im a combat expert, but im pretty sure being on your ass is not a good position to be in mid-fight.





Now thats just your completely speculative opinion, with nothing to back it up.



Lol He put Count friggin Dooku on the Floor! Let me know when Obi-Wan accomplishes anything close to that in combat against Dooku. In the meantime your arguments are baseless.






In other words "Im not gna answer that DP because it would ruin my argument."



Urmm yeah because that wasnt a one sided fight. They both got their hits in, and they were both thrown around at some point.

If however that was Yoda AND Mace fighting Sidious, and Sidious was chuking them Both around with the Force, and Forcing them Both back in Sabers as well, then that fight would not be very subjective at all.

But that obviously would never happen, because Sidious is not that much ahead of Yoda or Mace in combat.

Thats a rubbish example you've given there.




Iv already responded to this. But Ok Il respond again. This whole idea of a one-off Force Rage thing that can not be repeated in fair combat is complete hyperbole.

Where is the evidence that it was a one-off anger boost, and not a moment of clarity, like ROTS Zone Anakin having the clarity to use his rage to defeat Count Dooku. Are you telling me that wasn't a legitimate defeat?! Or a legitimate use of his power that could be repeated if he could find that clarity again??

And of course it doesnt help Obi-Wan's case that even before Savage's apparent "Force Rage" he still didnt fair too well against him, even with Anakin's help, and still has done nothing in his whole history of TK feats to match Savage's pre-Rage TK Feats.

I believe what SM is trying to say is that Obi Wan's skill with a lightsaber is enough for Obi Wan to draw the fight out until he finds an opening to deliver the fatal blow to Opress. We know that Obi Wan is a defensive fighter and his skills with the blade is superior to Opress's.

However, I do agree that Opress will most likely be the victor in a one on one fight against Obi Wan. Opress's physical strength will make it a very huge risk for Obi Wan to go blade to blade with him, unless Obi Wan can strike a fatal blow early in the fight, and I don't see that happening if Dooku was unable to. Opress's far superior physical strength added with his tremendous power in the force gives Opress the greater advantage IMO.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I believe what SM is trying to say is that Obi Wan's skill with a lightsaber is enough for Obi Wan to draw the fight out until he finds an opening to deliver the fatal blow to Opress. We know that Obi Wan is a defensive fighter and his skills with the blade is superior to Opress's.

Im not really sure what he's trying to say.. I could take his arguments more seriously if he at least admit Opress was superior every time they faced each other, and clearly has better Force feats, and definetely did better against Dooku then Obi-Wan ever did.

But apparently everything that happened in that episode was subjective, and didnt really happen that way confused

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, I do agree that Opress will most likely be the victor in a one on one fight against Obi Wan. Opress's physical strength will make it a very huge risk for Obi Wan to go blade to blade with him, unless Obi Wan can strike a fatal blow early in the fight, and I don't see that happening if Dooku was unable to. Opress's far superior physical strength added with his tremendous power in the force gives Opress the greater advantage IMO.

thumb up

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
No real dispute here, though I would refine your claim about Force strength. Opress's strength didn't increase, in that his midichlorian count didn't jump; he simply tapped into it. It was his power made manifest.

True, Opress' power is realized by his rage, in much the same way that Anakin tapped his when he got angry. But the argument then shifts to what can qualify as angering Opress enough to tap his in this fight? Lack of horn polish?



Because Dooku's Force powers were too much for Opress, in the latter's own words, no less. And I have reason to believe Ventress, with her considerable experience and better record of using the Force against foes, is consistently stronger. Rage Opress might momentarily overwhelm her, but again, that's borderline plot-induced uberness. Arguing Opress' peak as a constant is unrealistic.



You need to stop living in a cave in KY and get out in the world. Wulfgar and Drizzt are heroes of a NY Times bestselling series, that's been around since the late 80's and all but made Forgotten Realms mainstream.



Which really means that even though Obi-Wan and Anakin could have easily killed Opress in their first encounter, and he luckily was able to TK them into the ether and maintain the high ground on that narrow hovering pod, and later he was able to TK them back, and then attack at them really aggressively, they didn't fare well.

Let's ignore the fact that Opress' technique is pretty much below everyone else's and only his freak strength which was augmented by the Nightsisters gives him any edge, or that it was entirely situational that he outmaneuvered Anakin and Obi-Wan with his TK after they ignored a clear opportunity to murder him.... Suuuure.

It's a lot easier to argue for Opress when you ignore context.

Stealth Moose
And for the record, I'm going to just ignore DP. He's hopeless at this point. He's basically dismissing my arguments out of hand without direct refuting and going on to say I'll have an argument on my hands when I completely and totally agree with his viewpoints. Suuuure.

Turr_Phennir
Even my undeniably brilliant intellect is struggling to come up with different variations of "Obi-Wan and Anakin were the beneficiaries of a distraction created by a third party, which won't be at play in this thread." mmm

Obi-Wan and Anakin never had any advantage over Opress that was the result of their own skill.

Stealth Moose
Uh, the fact that they could have killed Opress seconds into the first skirmish pretty much undermines that.

And Opress never had any advantages over them that weren't conditional on rage-TK use and environment advantages like the pod and the droids.

In a neutral setting, you have to argue Opress without any of those helping him. So yeah. Nice try.

Turr_Phennir
SM
Uh, the fact that they could have killed Opress seconds into the first skirmish pretty much undermines that.

haermm

Only if you flagrantly disregard context and reimagine the events of the episode as something entirely different than what was actually depicted.

The only time that Obi-Wan and Anakin had any visible advantage over Opress, the only time in which they were in a position to neutralize him, was during the dogpile scene. Apparently it needs to be reiterated that the dogpile only occured because of Katuunko's escape, which distracted Opress, enabling the Jedi to get the drop (literally) on him.



erm



haermm

The platform and droids were advantageous to the Jedi, if anything. It enabled them to avoid engaging Opress in close quarters (which undermines his primary advantage: His strength, reach, and ferocity) and the droids in Dooku's ship were trying to kill him. So in what dimension does a terrain that enables one's smaller, weaker opponents to play to their strengths and third party elements (droids, Katuunko, etc.) that are trying to kill or foil one constitute an advantage for one?

mmm



no expression

Call me crazy, but I'm sure Opress will do just fine slaying his opponent without floating, maneuverable platforms that work to his enemy's advantage and droids trying to kill him in the process. laughing out loud

Nephthys
Why are you even still talking about that scene? Its obviously all PIS or circumstances. You'll never be able to use it as evidence for the superiority of either side so what is even teh point?

Turr_Phennir
We're still talking about the scene because it illustrates the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin were unable to subdue Opress despite the incontrovertible fact that they enjoyed advantages over him (superior numbers, much greater experience, a third party distraction, etc.). Opress certainly isn't as skilled as the Jedi, but his physical advantages and ability to tap into his raw energy enabled him to come off better.

Nephthys
And likewise the Jedi had disadvantages and bad luck which were also utilised. The scene is PIS. I mean Christ was that scene stupid. The Jedi just hug him? Wtf? It proves nothing.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
And likewise the Jedi had disadvantages and bad luck which were also utilised. The scene is PIS. I mean Christ was that scene stupid. The Jedi just hug him? Wtf? It proves nothing.

This is pretty vague, my sweet. What disadvantages? The platforms worked in their favor, it enabled them to avoid a close quarters brawl with Opress. The droids on Dooku's ship were focused on killing him in compliance with the Count's orders. Kenobi and Skywalker have vastly superior dueling experience and skill, where is the disadvantage? They are also the single most cohesive team in the Order, where is the disadvantage?

Nephthys
Well theres that the platform was likely (because its the only way to make any semblance of sense from the scene) too small for the Jedi to use effective measures of submission on him forcing them to try to hug him to death ( facepalm ). Theres that the platforms stopped them from being able to attack him together and use their numbers against him. Likewise in the next fight they're in a hallway and so can't flank or attack in any manner the double-bladed lightsaber isn't very effective in countering. Then theres their bad luck at landing poorly when he throws them off. And finally they were seemingly solely trying to subdue him, as opposed to actually attacking him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
And likewise the Jedi had disadvantages and bad luck which were also utilised. The scene is PIS. I mean Christ was that scene stupid. The Jedi just hug him? Wtf? It proves nothing.

I dnt think it'd be very Jedi like to stab an opponent while their back is facing them.

I think it is very Jedi like to take the oppurtunity to try and subdue him and take him alive.

The scene just added more evidence to how Physically strong Opress is. An advantage that allowed him to to put Dooku on the floor at one point, something the Jedi's superior skill had never allowed them to do at that point.

Like Sidious66 and Turr pointed out, despite Obi-Wan superior fencing skills, he will never fair too well against Opress due to his Vastly superior Physical strength, and Raw Power in the Force (as applied to TK).

Nephthys
Anakin is likewise incredibly strong, physically and in the Force and Obi fought him just fine.

Korto Vos
If this was Kenobi vs. either of them, Kenobi would win. But since this is both Ventress and Opress against Fisto and Kenobi, I'd say the Dark Jedi barely win. I mean, how much later is Fisto's battle against Grievous after The Cestus Deception?

Turr_Phennir
Neph
Well theres that the platform was likely (because its the only way to make any semblance of sense from the scene) too small for the Jedi to use effective measures of submission on him forcing them to try to hug him to death ( facepalm ).

Not at all. At the 2:33 mark, Anakin proves that the platforms are easy prey to Force manipulation. With this in mind, it gives the Jedi an advantage: They can use the Force to maneuver their own platforms around Opress, free to engage the hampered Zabrak in a coordinated, two-man attack while standing on platforms sufficiently agile to avoid his superior physical strength.



How?



And they constantly give ground, despite Anakin's vastly superior Force strength, raw energy, and own prodigious strength.



Maybe they didn't land properly because he hurt them.



Er... you realize that the Jedi pursued him twice, right?

Zampanó
Cestus Deception was in 21BBY. Anybody know when this duel takes place?

Turr_Phennir
Z.
Cestus Deception was in 21BBY. Anybody know when this duel takes place?

Not that I know of. They're going to have to reconstruct the timeline.

According to Wookiee, though, it says c. 21 BBY. I'm not aware of the actual source, though.

Zampanó

Turr_Phennir
Z.
We're so knowledgeable.

But mostly me, right? You mean I'm the knowledgeable one, right?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Not at all. At the 2:33 mark, Anakin proves that the platforms are easy prey to Force manipulation. With this in mind, it gives the Jedi an advantage: They can use the Force to maneuver their own platforms around Opress, free to engage the hampered Zabrak in a coordinated, two-man attack while standing on platforms sufficiently agile to avoid his superior physical strength.

1) They didn't do this so the point is irrelevent.

2) The platforms are too big for them to attack him at the same time. If he stands on one side and duels one then the other will not be able to reach him from their platform.

3) Kenobi and Anakin kind of suck in terms of telekinetic manipulation. Would they be capable to easily maneuver themselves as such in the middle of combat?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
How?

As I said above, its simply too difficult for them to maneuver into position where they can actually both attack him at once. We can see in the video Opress attacks Kenobi and Skywalker just looks on.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
And they constantly give ground, despite Anakin's vastly superior Force strength, raw energy, and own prodigious strength.

I don't see how that has anything to do with what I said.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Maybe they didn't land properly because he hurt them.

Maybe my beard is made of green spinach (Wonka quote yay!).

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Er... you realize that the Jedi pursued him twice, right?

Attacking to kill I meant.

Stealth Moose
I'm still reeling from the concept that having hovering platforms barely wide enough to support two people (assuming neither of them moves their feet/legs) is somehow not a considerable advantage for Opress, especially considering that his opponents are not trying to kill him and that said lack of maneuverability puts things in his favor. Add to that the fact that the Jedi deliberately did not kill him but dogpiled him and his subsequent TK shoved them off of the already precarious hovering platform and rendered the battle completely lopsided, how does this translate into sheer dominance?

Did Sidious dominate Yoda by having a rail on his side, despite losing the Force battle and the saber battle?

Also, when your fighting style is aggressive and you're Lenny the Retard from Of Mice and Men strong, it stands to reason your opponents will give ground when they are hemmed into a narrow hallway, unless of course they are equally retarded and try to push back.

No one's arguing Opress isn't strong physically. What we're arguing is that he hasn't demonstrated saber technique above Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto (or Anakin for that matter), and that his rawr!TK isn't a conclusive winning card.

Thus endeth the debate.

Turr_Phennir
SM
I'm still reeling from the concept that having hovering platforms barely wide enough to support two people (assuming neither of them moves their feet/legs) is somehow not a considerable advantage for Opress, especially considering that his opponents are not trying to kill him and that said lack of maneuverability puts things in his favor.

Anakin demonstrated via use of casual telekinesis that the pods were maneuverable. It enabled them to keep their distance from Opress to such a degree that he would be unable to properly apply his greater strength and size to his advantage. I mean, wasn't that your whole point? That in close quarters and in a confined space that Opress has the advantage? The platforms would enable them to keep their distance and utilize their greater numbers; he'd have to concentrate on one.



You neglect to mention the fact that the dogpile was the result of Katuunko's interference, for which I'd like a concession please. Moreover, how does not casually hurling them aside and dropping a platform on them not translate to dominance? mmm



Now that's just dirty. uhuh

Of course he didn't dominate Yoda through the railing. Though I would appreciate that you not flagrantly deceive the audience about Yoda's "victory" over the Emperor.

Though you would be interested to hear about the new Senate duel animatic.



You do realize that not only is Anakin prodigiously strong, but his raw energies are superior and that (as per the ROTS script) Anakin gets stronger as a fight progresses, right?



I'm not arguing that Opress's technique is better, it's definitely not.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Anakin demonstrated via use of casual telekinesis that the pods were maneuverable.

He threw it at him. He didn't 'maneuver' it.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
He threw it at him. He didn't 'maneuver' it.

Are we to assume that the pod can only move in a specific direction or that the Force can be used to make it move wherever the user wishes?

Nephthys
You're giving the duo a control of it that they havn't demonstrated. Anakin didn't surf around on that thing, he frigging threw it at him.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
You're giving the duo a control of it that they havn't demonstrated. Anakin didn't surf around on that thing, he frigging threw it at him.

I mean to suggest that it is within their level of abilities based on what we've seen of them. Do you honestly disagree?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nephthys
3) Kenobi and Anakin kind of suck in terms of telekinetic manipulation. Would they be capable to easily maneuver themselves as such in the middle of combat?

Turr_Phennir
Whoa, whoa. Where do they suck at it?

Nephthys
I've not watched the new cartoon, but Obi and Anakin have never impressed me with their TK skillz.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
I've not watched the new cartoon, but Obi and Anakin have never impressed me with their TK skillz.

They're not Yoda-class, if that's what you mean, but I see no evidence suggesting that they're deficient.

Nephthys
I've never seen them demonstrate the fine control you're suggesting.

Turr_Phennir
Neph
I've never seen them demonstrate the fine control you're suggesting.

I'm not seeing how this is a measure of "fine control." Not to get semantic (because that's tantamount to a defeated argument according to some), but it's not like they're performing brain surgery with just the Force. Anakin's demonstrated sufficient telekinesis to collapse roofs (Labyrinth of Evil), collapse buildings (the season 4 premiere), cow the Son and the Daughter, during the Mortis arc, who are unusually powerful Force beings, etc. I don't see how maneuvering a floating platform would provide much of a challenge.

ares834
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
They're not Yoda-class, if that's what you mean, but I see no evidence suggesting that they're deficient.

Anakin had a pretty uber force feat in the newest episode.

Turr_Phennir
Agreed, bringing down that building.

Nephthys
I was talking about skill, not power.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Anakin demonstrated via use of casual telekinesis that the pods were maneuverable. It enabled them to keep their distance from Opress to such a degree that he would be unable to properly apply his greater strength and size to his advantage. I mean, wasn't that your whole point? That in close quarters and in a confined space that Opress has the advantage? The platforms would enable them to keep their distance and utilize their greater numbers; he'd have to concentrate on one.

No, you're completely glossing over the fact that the narrow space on the pods severely limited any offensive maneuvers by the two Jedi when it came to say, using lightsabers. True, they could have just gored the **** out of Opress when he idiotically tossed the Toydarian up in the air like some kind of alien tiddlywink, but besides that the limited room naturally limited the engagement.

This isn't rocket science. Let's follow this through to a conclusion:

If all this had happened on even ground, even still assuming that his opponents wouldn't spear the hell out of him like is good and proper, his TK wave would basically throw them to the side where they could recover within moments as they have demonstrated against a far stronger push against a wall.

So the game-breaker in this case was the lack of even floor to allow the Jedi to recover and seriously continue the fight. This lack of floor immediately put them in a precarious position from which Opress took full advantage and then ran off to finish his errand.

And to top all, this wasn't a proper fight so much as it was a wrestling match. All of what? Three, four blows were traded between Obi-Wan and Opress. Again, not conclusive in the setting provided here in this thread. It's irrelevant. Let's move on.



The Toydarian was struggling, yes. But the reason why Opress was open to the dogpile was because he idiotically threw the Toydarian in the air and left himself open, instead of you know, jumping away with him or something less stupid.

There's your concession.



So you want me to say that Opress had "dominance" because he luckily benefited from the Jedi lacking ground to recover from his TK?

You realize what this means really, right? J.W. Boothe dominated Lincoln because he had the upper hand (and a gun). Vader dominated Sidious because the latter can't fly when he's being chucked over a rail. Han Solo dominated Vader in space combat because he got the drop on him while the latter was completely focused on Luke Skywalker.

Your definition of "dominance" apparently translates to "benefited from unique and advantageous circumstances". I tend to disagree.



^ You just admitted that your idea of dominance is completely inaccurate. We're done with that point.



Not to beat a dead horse into ash at this point, but it's firmly established that Yoda disarmed Sidious and overcame him in direct Force contests. Fortune favored Sidious that day, or else he'd be dead and the OT invalid.

And no, I'm not going to get into that again in this thread. If you want to beat it to death, I'll find the old thread and link you.



But this doesn't invalidate two things:

1. That Opress in his rage might be physically stronger.
2. That Opress' sweeping, forward moving fighting style might force even Anakin to fight defensively.

Anakin's strength does not immediately require him to avoid any defensive measures at all, nor does his defensive measures in the context of the limited space of the hallway invalidate his success against Opress. Opress literally did not break through saber-wise, and he has not demonstrated saber technique above and beyond anyone we've seen. His sole Jedi kills are complete unknowns, and he won those through sheer brute strength.



So then there's no point to arguing his "dominance". You've already agreed with me that his technique is inferior and that circumstantial advantages do not equal dominance, even in your twisted definition. Furthermore, his rawr!Tk is debunked as a viable "game-stopper" against any opponent who isn't a youngling or starship support strut.

So basically, there is no argument. Glad you've seen the light.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ares834
Anakin had a pretty uber force feat in the newest episode.

Its about time!

Turr_Phennir
In the words of Darth Power,



Your humility is much appreciated and I'm glad you've found the time to mature in between walkthroughs of Deus Ex. uhuh


nerd

Korto Vos
Ragnos solos.

/thread

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