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The combatants face each other in the ruins of an ancient Temple that is full of dark side energy and dark magic. Sauron is in his physical form and is equipped with the Ring. This is Yoda & Obi-Wan from RoTS - no rules. Both sides are each armed with their standard weapons - swords, armor & lightsabers. To make it fair, the swords cannot be broken by a lightsaber blade. Who wins?

Sauron and Saruman win.

Sauron got his ass handed to him by Isildur with a broken Narsil. Yoda is more than agile enough to jump around and do some damage while Obi-Wan battles Saruman.

Originally posted by Impediment
Sauron got his ass handed to him by Isildur with a broken Narsil.

If we ignore context.

And PIS. Sauron didnt have to reach down slowly.

I would still say that Saruman goes down if he hits one with a fireball, but I dont think Sauron could hit Yoda. The best bet they have, is to kill Obi with the mace, while Sarman engages Yoda in TK.

Either one easily takes out Saruman, and Yoda can definitely crush Sauron.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Either one easily takes out Saruman, and Yoda can definitely crush Sauron. Based off of what ?

Well Saruman and Sauron are both Maiars, or demi-gods. Technically, they should be extremely powerful. Sauron is able to cut down entire battalions of men and elves at the Battle of Dagorlad at the beginning of Jackson's FOTR. Saruman fires destructive thunderbolts in Ralph Bakshi's film adaptation and a fireball in the extended edition of Jackson's ROTK; he also controls the weather in Jackson's FOTR. Since Sauron is the most powerful of the Maiar, it isn't unreasonable to conclude he has access to stronger versions of these powers. In addition, the Witch King demonstrates the power to shatter items (such as Gandalf's staff) , and burn weaponry. If Sauron bestowed this power to the Witch King, it's evident he has these skills as well.

AND Sauron only "lost" to Isildur because he bound most of his powers into the One Ring, and when that was removed from his body, he was only left as a spirit.

Are we assuming that Sauron is at full strength but doesn't have to worry about Yoda chopping off his finger or Force Pull-ing away the ring?

Anyway, that being said, if Yoda can beat Voldemort (haha Quan ), and Obi-Wan also has strong precognition and speed, who knows how this duel would turn out?

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well Saruman and Sauron are both Maiars, or demi-gods. Technically, they should be extremely powerful. Sauron is able to cut down entire battalions of men and elves at the Battle of Dagorlad at the beginning of Jackson's FOTR. Saruman fires destructive thunderbolts in Ralph Bakshi's film adaptation and a fireball in the extended edition of Jackson's ROTK; he also controls the weather in Jackson's FOTR. Since Sauron is the most powerful of the Maiar, it isn't unreasonable to conclude he has access to stronger versions of these powers. In addition, the Witch King demonstrates the power to shatter items (such as Gandalf's staff) , and burn weaponry. If Sauron bestowed this power to the Witch King, it's evident he has these skills as well.

AND Sauron only "lost" to Isildur because he bound most of his powers into the One Ring, and when that was removed from his body, he was only left as a spirit.

Are we assuming that Sauron is at full strength but doesn't have to worry about Yoda chopping off his finger or Force Pull-ing away the ring?

Anyway, that being said, if Yoda can beat Voldemort (haha Quan ), and Obi-Wan also has strong precognition and speed, who knows how this duel would turn out? Haven't you humiliated Yoda enough, vos ?



Kinda sad how no one ever weighed in on our battlezone.

Star wars team wins, we are all agreed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Haven't you humiliated Yoda enough, vos ?



Kinda sad how no one ever weighed in on our battlezone.

Dude, you have to admit that there probably hasn't been a more detailed argument/analysis given for the movie incarnation of Yoda in the entire Internet than my Battlezone posts.


And yeah...that was kinda sad....

Originally posted by Mindset
Star wars team wins, we are all agreed. Sauron solos you zombie lover.Originally posted by Korto Vos
Dude, you have to admit that there probably hasn't been a more detailed argument/analysis given for the movie incarnation of Yoda in the entire Internet than my Battlezone posts.


And yeah...that was kinda sad.... It was quite a rumba.

At least the argument will live on forever or when this place shuts down in a year or so.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron solos you zombie lover.

Zombie lover?

Honestly the extent of Saruman and Saurons's powers aren't ever shown.

Originally posted by Mindset
Zombie lover? Yes.Originally posted by Korto Vos
Honestly the extent of Saruman and Saurons's powers aren't ever shown. The extent wasn't shown but implied. I admit it is hard to gauge Sauron especially since we saw him in combat for around a minute or so but what he did do was very impressive and what his power did create the Nazgul, etc. Even his own death knocked both entire armies to the ground when he became separated from his ring.

Yoda and Mace Windu would be a better fight. The Jedi lose this one simply because I dnt see Obi-Wan having good enough TK to hang with these guys.

Yoda or Obiwan could solo.

Saruman gets killed by being stabbed in the back by Grima Wormtongue.

Saruman is the very definition of a punk *****.

It is a laughably simple matter for Yoda to yank the ring off Sauron's finger with but a gesture.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Yoda or Obiwan could solo. You mean Sauron solos. Yoda would lose to either foe and Obi Wan just doesn't stack up in the least.

Sauron lacks the movie feats to beat either of them, his biggest flaw being in terms of speed. Saruman was killed by a knife wielded by Grima. Sauron's movie incarnation is vastly overrated.

lol at the Saruman death "argument".

What about it?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Sauron lacks the movie feats to beat either of them, his biggest flaw being in terms of speed. Saruman was killed by a knife wielded by Grima. Sauron's movie incarnation is vastly overrated. Sauron's implied power and what he did do on screen was turn the entire tide of the battle. The problem is we don't see enough of him but since he powered the Nazgul and we see what their leader can do to Gandalf we know Gandalf can't just tk the ring off of him. It's pretty obvious that Sauron is far greater than Gandalf.

It's also implied in the SW films that the ability to a destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

Destroying planets >^13 turning the tides of battles.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's also implied in the SW films that the ability to a destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

Destroying planets >^13 turning the tides of battles. I've seen far less take out jedis under order 66. Sauron's influence over the world still >>dark side of the force. Sauron's power alone fueled Mordor unlike Palpatine who just outmaneuvered and put himself behind a galactic empire.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I've seen far less take out jedis under order 66.

I've seen far less take out Sauron.

It was a guy with a broken sword...

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I've seen far less take out Sauron.

It was a guy with a broken sword... Due to him placing his power in the ring so his physical form can't survive without it. The guy destroyed a sword simply by stepping on it. A lucky strike which separated his ring from his body doesn't mean that bum has a chance against him in a forum fight. If the ring easily is separated from him why was the Alliance sh--ing bricks when he started powering through them ?

Because the Alliance is consisted entirely of pussies?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because the Alliance is consisted entirely of pussies? The alliance was beating the army of Mordor and Sauron's aura of fear/power turned the tide. That army looked vastly superior to the army we saw oppose the Nazgul in return of the King.

It also looked vastly inferior to the Clone Army.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It also looked vastly inferior to the Clone Army. They didn't have the tech that is available in Star wars so it's tricky comparing the two. I think in each respective universe Sauron was a much bigger deal than Palpatine, powerwise.

It's not really tricky. The Clone Army with its advanced technology would steamroll any force in the lord of the rings movies.

Similarly, Yoda would steamroll anything in the Lord of the Rings movies.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They didn't have the tech that is available in Star wars so it's tricky comparing the two. I think in each respective universe Sauron was a much bigger deal than Palpatine, powerwise.

Sauron threatened part of a planet. Palpatine threatened a galaxy.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sauron threatened part of a planet. Palpatine threatened a galaxy. Due to his resources throughout his galactic regime. Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's not really tricky. The Clone Army with its advanced technology would steamroll any force in the lord of the rings movies.

Similarly, Yoda would steamroll anything in the Lord of the Rings movies. I don't think so. The magic involved in LOTR would defeat them. The magic involved along with the Nazgul would defeat the clone army. The unfair advantage Star Wars has over many other fictonal movies is it spans over a galaxy unlike Lord of the Rings.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Due to his resources throughout his galactic regime.

Sauron wasn't a one-man army threat either.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sauron wasn't a one-man army threat either. He was turning the tide of an epic battle soon as he started attacking. It was stated right on film. Palpatine never had that sort of influence. Palpatine actually tried fleeing from Yoda and was beaten down by Windu.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was turning the tide of an epic battle soon as he started attacking. It was stated right on film. Palpatine never had that sort of influence. Palpatine actually tried fleeing from Yoda and was beaten down by Windu.

Point is, Palpatine orchestrated the setup of a galactic empire with himself as the head. He's a pretty big deal.

Sauron was beating by an injured man with a broken sword. I don't think anyone would argue that Isildor could take on either Yoda or Mace and be any sort of a threat, even uninjured.

Originally posted by Robtard
Point is, Palpatine orchestrated the setup of a galactic empire with himself as the head. He's a pretty big deal.

Sauron was beating by an injured man with a broken sword. He is a big deal but most of his success was through manipulating both sides to achieve his goals. Sauron achieved his goals with the forging of his rings in the same manner but my point was on the battlefield Palpatine wouldn't bring the same deflating presence Sauron brought which was seemingly turning the tide of battle himself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He is a big deal but most of his success was through manipulating both sides to achieve his goals. Sauron achieved his goals with the forging of his rings in the same manner but my point was on the battlefield Palpatine wouldn't bring the same deflating presence Sauron brought which was seemingly turning the tide of battle himself.

Palpatine lead from the rear, this is true. Considering how it turned out for Sauron, seems Palpatine was the smarter leader too.

But yes, a hulking giant in armor is more fear inspiring than a pedo-looking old man in a robe.

Edit: But there's another way to compare, say we replaced Sauron with Palpatine in the War of the Last Alliance, Palpatine would have wrecked the human/elf/dwarf armies and he wouldn't have fallen for the cut-my-finger off trick due to battle-precog.

Well Sauron "led from the rear" as well. In the books he has a body the entire time, and in RotK we see his body briefly when Aragorn challenges him with the Palantir. The only time he emerged was when he was loosing the Siege of Baradur in the War of the Last Alliance. But, yes, movie Sauron does not really have the feats to win this.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palpatine lead from the rear, this is true. Considering how it turned out for Sauron, seems Palpatine was the smarter leader too.

But yes, a hulking giant in armor is more fear inspiring than a pedo-looking old man in a robe.

Edit: But there's another way to compare, say we replaced Sauron with Palpatine in the War of the Last Alliance, Palpatine would have wrecked the human/elf/dwarf armies and he wouldn't have fallen for the cut-my-finger off trick due to battle-precog. Sauron was simply too powerful soon as that ring started glowing guys went flying like 20-30 feet like nothing. Palpatine was a true politician who didn't want to gehis hands dirty unless there was no other alternative.

But when there wasn't he speedblitzed 3 Jedi Masters and stalemated Yoda.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron was simply too powerful soon as that ring started glowing guys went flying like 20-30 feet like nothing. Palpatine was a true politician who didn't want to gehis hands dirty unless there was no other alternative.

Palpatine with the Force could make "guys fly like nothing"

Yes, he lead form the rear, cos he's smart.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But when there wasn't he speedblitzed 3 Jedi Masters and stalemated Yoda. Yes, and at the end of the battle Windu effectively disarmed and defeated him.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palpatine with the Force could make "guys fly like nothing"

Yes, he lead form the rear, cos he's smart. Not droves of them like Sauron was just tossing. Look at the amount of time Palpatine was actively trying to kill Luke with his blasts with and the fact Luke calmly gets up right after his father interferes. Force lightning was weak sauce Sauron was straight killing his opponents.

Both bad guys were defeated but I think Sauron was he smarter of the two as well. Sauron had to go onto the battlefield and still wasn't killed despite his body being destroyed.

lol

Lightsaber throw, QED.

Edit: also this is ridiculously lopsided and Truculent should know better.

Originally posted by Eminence
lol

Lightsaber throw, QED.

Edit: also this is ridiculously lopsided and Truculent should know better. You think it's that easy as a lightsaber throw ? Really ?

It is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is. No way. Sauron isn't going down to a lightsaber toss.

Why not?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, and at the end of the battle Windu effectively disarmed and defeated him.

Not droves of them like Sauron was just tossing. Look at the amount of time Palpatine was actively trying to kill Luke with his blasts with and the fact Luke calmly gets up right after his father interferes. Force lightning was weak sauce Sauron was straight killing his opponents.

Both bad guys were defeated but I think Sauron was he smarter of the two as well. Sauron had to go onto the battlefield and still wasn't killed despite his body being destroyed.

That was old-crusty-slow Palpatine, I'm talking about the Palpatine who was doing flips and spins at the end of Ep3. That Palpatine would demolish a middle-earth army.

Considering Sauron failed twice and Palpatine ruled a galaxy for a good 20 years or so, I think it's easy to see who was the smarter of the two.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not? I don't see it being powerful enough to defeat him based off his implied power/what the Nazgul were capable of and what he was capable of when using the ring. Originally posted by Robtard
That was old-crusty-slow Palpatine, I'm talking about the Palpatine who was doing flips and spins at the end of Ep3. That Palpatine would demolish a middle-earth army.

Considering Sauron failed twice and Palpatine ruled a galaxy for a good 20 years or so, I think it's easy to see who was the smarter of the two. Palpatine was always crusty and old he only used his speed when he donned his light saber. Palpatine would get wrecked by a middle earth army. He can't stop arrows coming at all directions.

Sauron was around for a lot longer and faced off against other beings who were truly immortal. The only advantage Palpatine had Sauron didn't was he masked himself from the jedi until it was too late.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't see it being powerful enough to defeat him based off his implied power/what the Nazgul were capable of and what he was capable of when using the ring.

Too bad.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Too bad. They'd have to get extremely luck and separate the ring from him to best him here. I also don't see them surviving long enough soon as he starts swinging his mace.

I meant that its too bad you feel that way because you have absolutely no proof and as such your argument is baseless.

Sorry 'bout the confushun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I meant that its too bad you feel that way because you have absolutely no proof and as such your argument is baseless.

Sorry 'bout the confushun. Sauron is hard to argue for or against because we see so little of him but know implied power/what the Nazgul can do pales in comparison to Sauron's true might/formidability.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't see it being powerful enough to defeat him based off his implied power/what the Nazgul were capable of and what he was capable of when using the ring.

Aragorn drove off the Nazgul with a frigging torch.



I don't know what this "capable of turning the tide of battle" crap is, he just showed up, killed twenty guys, killed Elendil, then Isildur cut his ring off. What's actually hilarious is that, in the book, Sauron was actually defeated by two guys whilst having the ring, but that's off-topic.

Both Yoda and Obiwan are much faster then either of the two. That's inarguable. There is no proof that either of the two can withstand lightsabers. I don't care what implied power Sauron has, screen feats show he goes down.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Aragorn drove off the Nazgul with a frigging torch.



I don't know what this "capable of turning the tide of battle" crap is, he just showed up, killed twenty guys, killed Elendil, then Isildur cut his ring off. What's actually hilarious is that, in the book, Sauron was actually defeated by two guys whilst having the ring, but that's off-topic.

Both Yoda and Obiwan are much faster then either of the two. That's inarguable. There is no proof that either of the two can withstand lightsabers. I don't care what implied power Sauron has, screen feats show he goes down. Driving them off doesn't equal defeating them. We saw how formidable the Witch King was against gandalf. We see Gandalf easily stop an arrow using his reflexes in the second film iirc.

If you watch the movie you clearly see Sauron turn the tide of the battle. It's clearly the point of that scene despite the Alliance winning that Sauron's involvement changed that.

Saruman will be using his staff he doesn't have to be as quick as they are athletically.

Sauron swings his mace and he kills them. That's how easy it is. The guy was so powerful he was doing so easily.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Driving them off doesn't equal defeating them. We saw how formidable the Witch King was against gandalf. We see Gandalf easily stop an arrow using his reflexes in the second film iirc.

If you watch the movie you clearly see Sauron turn the tide of the battle. It's clearly the point of that scene despite the Alliance winning that Sauron's involvement changed that.

Saruman will be using his staff he doesn't have to be as quick as they are athletically.

Sauron swings his mace and he kills them. That's how easy it is. The guy was so powerful he was doing so easily.

Uh, given context of the situation, yes it does. The One Ring was right there, they would have stopped at nothing to obtain it. Aragorn jumped in there and beat them away, including setting one of them on fire. At the very least, they could not beat Aragorn at the time.

The Witch King, after a long ass delay, shattered Gandalf's staff....and that's it . Also, I wouldn't compare an arrow to the reflexes or speed of a Jedi.

Uh, not really. We are not given a broad scope of the rest of the battle, we are only shown Sauron slaughtering nameless soldiers. I am unsure as to how that changes the tide of the battle.

Except, he won't be. Because he will have a lightsaber sticking through his throat.

No, he won't. Not even counting the fact that a jedi would never be hit by such a slow moving attack, show me proof that that mace is durable enough to withstand a lightsaber.

Missed the part about their weapons can't be broken. Never the less, superior reflexes ftw.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Uh, given context of the situation, yes it does. The One Ring was right there, they would have stopped at nothing to obtain it. Aragorn jumped in there and beat them away, including setting one of them on fire. At the very least, they could not beat Aragorn at the time.

The Witch King, after a long ass delay, shattered Gandalf's staff....and that's it . Also, I wouldn't compare an arrow to the reflexes or speed of a Jedi.

Uh, not really. We are not given a broad scope of the rest of the battle, we are only shown Sauron slaughtering nameless soldiers. I am unsure as to how that changes the tide of the battle.

Except, he won't be. Because he will have a lightsaber sticking through his throat.

No, he won't. Not even counting the fact that a jedi would never be hit by such a slow moving attack, show me proof that that mace is durable enough to withstand a lightsaber. Fire was a weakness of theirs so there's that part you conveniently keep leaving out.

What Gandalf demonstrated was very impressive and his hand to hand fight against the Balrog while falling shows how badass these Lord of the Rings characters are.

Destroying Gandalf's staff is very impressive when you look at his body of work from all three films. Gandalf was a beast and a balrog couldn't do so.

Victory was near but the power of the ring could not be undone. It was in this moment when all hope had faded.


If you don't understand what the scene or the narrator is telling us then why debate at all ?

The attack was wrecking foes nearby his swipes. Look at it again see how easily the men in scores are going down and sauron's power crushes a sword under his boot heel.

Sauron levels them with but a few swings.
Like I said watch the scene he doesn't even need to hit them just the general vicinity.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Fire was a weakness of theirs so there's that part you conveniently keep leaving out.

What Gandalf demonstrated was very impressive and his hand to hand fight against the Balrog while falling shows how badass these Lord of the Rings characters are.

Destroying Gandalf's staff is very impressive when you look at his body of work from all three films. Gandalf was a beast and a balrog couldn't do so.

Victory was near but the power of the ring could not be undone. It was in this moment when all hope had faded.


If you don't understand what the scene or the narrator is telling us then why debate at all ?

The attack was wrecking foes nearby his swipes. Look at it again see how easily the men in scores are going down and sauron's power crushes a sword under his boot heel.

Sauron levels them with but a few swings.
Like I said watch the scene he doesn't even need to hit them just the general vicinity.

Uh? It is? Was this specifically stated at some point?

Cool story bro. Not that the Witch King actually engaged Gandalf in an actual fight, but kay.

Not really, since Gandalf fought the Balrog physically. That has nothing to do with destroying Gandalf's staff with a spell.

And Galadriel is omnicient? Also, their king just died. That would kind of drain morale from the soldiers, not that that has him directly turning the tide of battle.

Those men aren't Obiwan and Yoda and that sword isn't a lightsaber.

Cool. Not that it matters when he will have a lightsaber sticking into his chest.

Eh it's really a case of Yoda vs Sauron to my mind.

Pulling off the ring with a gesture is ridiculous, since his hand will be gripping his weapon.

Just my opinion but two things that seem to have been ignored thus far;

- Saurons far superior range
- The fact, movie feat wise he's likely to one shot either jedi through any attempted block


Assuming Sauron fights Obi-wan first, he smacks the jedi into the afterlife the moment he moves into range. Obi-wan is much faster with a lightsaber, but that's irrelevant since I don't see him getting close enough for it to matter.

Saruman dies no matter who he fights. Why he's even a part of this is frankly a mystery.


Then it's Yoda vs Sauron. Strength vs Speed. And I honestly couldn't give an opinion on if I think Saurons excessive range and power advantage would be enough to get the hit on Yoda, who has movie feats of being highly nimble and able in combat despite such disadvantages.

So I'll finish by saying. If their weapons are light saber resistant, what about his armour? If it's even somewhat resistant maybe he can win. If not, Yoda can probably build up on injuries to cripple him before getting a fatal shot. But I'm honestly guessing for that fight.

@Quan: Why are the Nazgul even being discussed? You know just as much as I do that implied ability has absolutely no bearing in a debate, only the feats themselves matter.

The facts are that the two Jedi showed far quicker reflexes than Sauron, they possess the ability to knock him down with the force from a distance, can throw their lightsabers telekinetically from a distance, etc.

Sauron showed regular human speed, zero long range abilities, and got his hand cut off by a guy with a broken sword.

Nothing else matters.

Either Obi-Wan or Yoda can solo this match with paramount ease.

Qhx7PgqGbyY

Check thirty seconds in.

That kind of speed is more than Sauron can begin to handle. Sure, it was a short burst, but it's more than enough to allow Obi or Yoda to cut off Sauron's hand or arm, or whatever, IMHO.

Word. There's also shenanigans like these

3XqKvKUTElA

If Obi-Wan can handle General "Four lightsabers at once from all directions" Grievous, Sauron's attacks would be easily dogeable.

And that's not even counting the force push that launched Grievous 50 feet straight up into the air...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Uh? It is? Was this specifically stated at some point?

Cool story bro. Not that the Witch King actually engaged Gandalf in an actual fight, but kay.

Not really, since Gandalf fought the Balrog physically. That has nothing to do with destroying Gandalf's staff with a spell.

And Galadriel is omnicient? Also, their king just died. That would kind of drain morale from the soldiers, not that that has him directly turning the tide of battle.

Those men aren't Obiwan and Yoda and that sword isn't a lightsaber.

Cool. Not that it matters when he will have a lightsaber sticking into his chest. I'm pretty sure it was.

Destroying Gandalf's staff is something the Balrog wasn't even able to do and the Witch King didn't have to destroy Gandalf.

Gandalf also resisted the Balrog's attacks through his staff initially. The staff didn't break at all against a Balrog who chased out an entire massive army of orcs.

So the narrator's words are what there to deceive the audience ? be serious you know exactly what her words meant. Acting like sauron didn't change the tide of battle even minus the dialog is hilarious. I mean victory was at hand to almost all hope had faded means what exactly ? Explain what exactly that means.

Obi Wan and Yoda have never ever been anywhere near as impressive in battle as sauron was here. Hell, Sauron rips through their bodies with a boot hell to the back. Again, Sauron's power and one swipe means means death for whichever jedi gets in his way. Sauron can solo this easily.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Palpatine was always crusty and old he only used his speed when he donned his light saber. Palpatine would get wrecked by a middle earth army. He can't stop arrows coming at all directions.

Sauron was around for a lot longer and faced off against other beings who were truly immortal.

The only advantage Palpatine had Sauron didn't was he masked himself from the jedi until it was too late.

No, Palpatine's crustiness increased profoundly by EP6. While ep 3 Palpatine may or may not get wrecked by a middle earth army (probably depends on size), we know he wouldn't get wrecked by a wounded man with a broken sword.

I'm sorry, which film did all this happen in? Because if you want to bring in written literature, than Palpatine solos all of middle earth and then goes and has himself a snack.

Again, cos he's smarter than Sauron.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
@Quan: Why are the Nazgul even being discussed? You know just as much as I do that implied ability has absolutely no bearing in a debate, only the feats themselves matter.

The facts are that the two Jedi showed far quicker reflexes than Sauron, they possess the ability to knock him down with the force from a distance, can throw their lightsabers telekinetically from a distance, etc.

Sauron showed regular human speed, zero long range abilities, and got his hand cut off by a guy with a broken sword.

Nothing else matters.

Either Obi-Wan or Yoda can solo this match with paramount ease. I've never ever been in the same school of thought as only feats matter. That's like saying Superman's stronger than Mistress death the actual embodiment of death due to lack of physical feats.


Sauron doesn't need quick reflexes he just needs to swing his mace in their general direction and they die. I used a feat from his involvement in the movies to back up my case. I also think with the power of the ring and the strength of Sauron that tk would do jack in this fight.

Sauron left himself vulnerable against an opponent with a lucky strike. That doesn't mean Isildur defeats Sauron one on one in a forum battle it just means this is how it played out with all the variables which took place in the movie.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, Palpatine's crustiness increased profoundly by EP6. While ep 3 Palpatine may or may not get wrecked by a middle earth army (probably depends on size), we know he wouldn't get wrecked by a wounded man with a broken sword.

I'm sorry, which film did all this happen in? Because if you want to bring in written literature, than Palpatine solos all of middle earth and then goes and has himself a snack.

Again, cos he's smarter than Sauron. If he made himsel fvulnerable and reached down in the same manner I see no reason why the same result wouldn't occur. I don't think this attack would kill him only cause a finger or so to be lost so unlike sauron which this proved to be fatal to (not really but it did destroy his body).

I can say this going by the same school of thought that there's no way Vader is going to pick up Sauron and overpower him over the edge like he did to Palpatine. His history prior to the film and in the film he still existed until the ring was destroyed for a lot longer than the brief period Palpatine held sway in Star Wars.

Sauron deceived the entire planet again and Palpatine wasn't as brilliant because in the end Vader killed him and chose his own son over Palpatine so critical error which cost someone who already held complete power over a galaxy to put himself in an extremely toxic situation. That's much worse.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If he made himsel fvulnerable and reached down in the same manner I see no reason why the same result wouldn't occur. I don't think this attack would kill him only cause a finger or so to be lost so unlike sauron which this proved to be fatal to (not really but it did destroy his body).

I can say this going by the same school of thought that there's no way Vader is going to pick up Sauron and overpower him over the edge like he did to Palpatine. His history prior to the film and in the film he still existed until the ring was destroyed for a lot longer than the brief period Palpatine held sway in Star Wars.

Sauron deceived the entire planet again and Palpatine wasn't as brilliant because in the end Vader killed him and chose his own son over Palpatine so critical error which cost someone who already held complete power over a galaxy to put himself in an extremely toxic situation. That's much worse.

If? He didn't.

No, you can't bring in written works when you see fit. Vader could pick up Sauron with the Force if need be, Vader would also utterly wreck Sauron. Sauron existed as a giant seeing eye for an age. Palpatine ruled a galaxy for 20 odd years. The later is more impressive.

Palpatine orchestrated the creation of a galactic empire with himself as the head, this is far more brilliant than anything Sauron is seen doing. Palpatine's error with Vader/Luke is not even as stupid as allowing your ring/finger(your apparent weakness) to be cut off by an injured man.

Originally posted by Robtard
If? He didn't.

No, you can't bring in written works when you see fit. Vader could pick up Sauron with the Force if need be, Vader would also utterly wreck Sauron. Sauron existed as a giant seeing eye for an age. Palpatine ruled a galaxy for 20 odd years. The later is more impressive.

Palpatine orchestrated the creation of a galactic empire with himself as the head, this is far more brilliant than anything Sauron is seen doing. Palpatine's error with Vader/Luke is not even as stupid as allowing your ring/finger(your apparent weakness) to be cut off by an injured man. Sauron did so and this is why he lost not that he was skillfully bested just the perfect strike to separate himself from the ring.

They allude to this in the movie the time frame and it's many years afterwards where he still exists as the Eye. Sauron existed prior to his scene in the film according to the film. That's a fact and one in which the movie supports. Unlike Palpatine Sauron can survive having his body destroyed.

Sauron wasn't killed by this error whereas Palpatine was. Palpatine was an unseen villain that's the only advantage he had sauron was right out in the open and once Palpatine was discovered windu beat his ass in battle. That's not very impressive or brilliant.

This section of the board concerns itself with developments and feats from the films alone; what the novels say are ultimately irrelevant.
Implications of power from the films similarly fail to further the argument that Sauron and Saruman emerge victorious, because it is heavily implied within the films that the power of the Force transcends planet-vaporizing superweapons in magnitude, which is a good deal more than what the Dark Lord and the White Wizard could bring to bear.
Yoda and Obi-Wan demonstrate superhuman durability and stamina throughout the films; they fall from tremendous heights and endure crushing strikes and typically emerged unscathed. There is no indication that Sauron, even if he did strike, would kill them.
The reflexes and speed of Obi-Wan and Yoda are demonstrably superior to Sauron, Saruman, and their victims.
Obi-Wan and Yoda demonstrate sufficient strength in the Force as to be able to telekinetically manhandle either opponent without difficulty.


Conclusion: The Middle-Earthlings die. Hard.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir



This section of the board concerns itself with developments and feats from the films alone; what the novels say are ultimately irrelevant.
Implications of power from the films similarly fail to further the argument that Sauron and Saruman emerge victorious, because it is heavily implied within the films that the power of the Force transcends planet-vaporizing superweapons in magnitude, which is a good deal more than what the Dark Lord and the White Wizard could bring to bear.
Yoda and Obi-Wan demonstrate superhuman durability and stamina throughout the films; they fall from tremendous heights and endure crushing strikes and typically emerged unscathed. There is no indication that Sauron, even if he did strike, would kill them.
The reflexes and speed of Obi-Wan and Yoda are demonstrably superior to Sauron, Saruman, and their victims.
Obi-Wan and Yoda demonstrate sufficient strength in the Force as to be able to telekinetically manhandle either opponent without difficulty.


Conclusion: The Middle-Earthlings die. Hard. 1. I am using the films alone to prove my points.
No it doesn't. I've seen force users go down in flames when order 66 went out and the rest of the jedi hiding out after their attack on Palpatine failed.
3.Yoda was ko'd briefly by one Palpatine lightning blast and sent flying the second time he actually tried redirecting it. That's not very impressive considering Palpatine has never killed anyone by force lightning alone unless under the duress of it for an amount of time. Luke walked away from it after he admitted he was going to kill him with it with no effects moments later. Not impressed me thinks.
4.Sauron just has to swing his mace in their general direction and it's game over. The degree of difficulty isn't that high in what I am suggesting.
5.Power and strength can resist force users otherwise weight would hold no relevance under the strain of the tk user. Thre power sauron wields is too much to hold in check.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron did so and this is why he lost not that he was skillfully bested just the perfect strike to separate himself from the ring.

They allude to this in the movie the time frame and it's many years afterwards where he still exists as the Eye. Sauron existed prior to his scene in the film according to the film. That's a fact and one in which the movie supports. Unlike Palpatine Sauron can survive having his body destroyed.

Sauron wasn't killed by this error whereas Palpatine was. Palpatine was an unseen villain that's the only advantage he had sauron was right out in the open and once Palpatine was discovered windu beat his ass in battle. That's not very impressive or brilliant.

Not sure how you can imply that Palpatine is an idiot for allowing himself to be back-stabbed by Vader (who was loyal for 20 odd years), but completely disregard that Sauron placing his ring/weakness im danger as being utterly moronic.

Great, he existed, that's not in debate, what is are your claims that he kicked the asses of other immortals and such. Yes, he can survive as a giant eye, which he did for an age before having his plans defeated again and this time destroyed.

Yeah, putting his hand in the line of danger would be an "error", it would be a moronic critical error. Turning Anakin to the darkside was his plan at least mid-way through ep2 (if not earlier), so it seems his plans worked out, considering he created said galactic empire. How did Sauron's plans work out for him? Defeated twice.

If that's what you're doing, your definition of 'prove' differs wildly from mine. mmm



That's just the point, though, isn't it? Implications remain so for a reason: They could very well be demonstrably false. Which is why you need to stick to hard fact and basic deduction, not grotesque extrapolation and assumptions.



Palpatine has never hurled a sustained gout of lightning at an opponent who was unable to block it, with the exception of Mace Windu, who died in the assault. When Yoda was caught off guard, it was a single blast, when he tried it again, Yoda was using the Force to repulse it.



That might have had to do with the fact that he was... torturing him? mmm



Because you say so? Well we can do that too: Yoda and Obi-Wan gesture and render Sauron unconscious and then proceed to shove said mace into the Dark Lord's random Dark Orifice.

And since there seem to be more of us on the Jedi's side, arguing through sheer fiat isn't a winning tactic.



Neither is the degree in brainpower, given the tenor of your arguments and your willful disregard of the source material.



Sauron is a large man. You'd need to prove that his weight is sufficient to hamper the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I suggest you get to it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not sure how you can imply that Palpatine is an idiot for allowing himself to be back-stabbed by Vader (who was loyal for 20 odd years), but completely disregard that Sauron placing his ring/weakness im danger as being utterly moronic.

Great, he existed, that's not in debate, what is are your claims that he kicked the asses of other immortals and such. Yes, he can survive as a giant eye, which he did for an age before having his plans defeated again and this time destroyed.

Yeah, putting his hand in the line of danger would be an "error", it would be a moronic critical error. Turning Anakin to the darkside was his plan at least mid-way through ep2 (if not earlier), so it seems his plans worked out, considering he created said galactic empire. How did Sauron's plans work out for him? Defeated twice. Sauron wasn't killed when he lost his ring whereas Palpatine was completely destroyed. Dying in battle in terms of intelligence is fr superior then being caught completely off guard while your head enforcer is watching you kill his son. What kind of an idiot doesn't foresee complications arising in this ?

Sauron kicked immortals asses on screen. The elves were immortal and feared him.

In the end all baddies most lose but losing in battle with all kinds of variables coming at you while Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu and then put himself in harms way at the height of power when he didn't need to.

quanchi
What kind of an idiot doesn't foresee complications arising in this ?

facepalm

Probably the same kind of idiot who doesn't foresee complications (cutting off the finger that carries the source of his power) arising in a battle involving thousands of enemies each wielding razor sharp weapons.

Sauron was killed by a wounded man with a broken sword on-screen too.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If that's what you're doing, your definition of 'prove' differs wildly from mine. mmm



That's just the point, though, isn't it? Implications remain so for a reason: They could very well be demonstrably false. Which is why you need to stick to hard fact and basic deduction, not grotesque extrapolation and assumptions.



Palpatine has never hurled a sustained gout of lightning at an opponent who was unable to block it, with the exception of Mace Windu, who died in the assault. When Yoda was caught off guard, it was a single blast, when he tried it again, Yoda was using the Force to repulse it.



That might have had to do with the fact that he was... torturing him? mmm



Because you say so? Well we can do that too: Yoda and Obi-Wan gesture and render Sauron unconscious and then proceed to shove said mace into the Dark Lord's random Dark Orifice.

And since there seem to be more of us on the Jedi's side, arguing through sheer fiat isn't a winning tactic.



Neither is the degree in brainpower, given the tenor of your arguments and your willful disregard of the source material.



Sauron is a large man. You'd need to prove that his weight is sufficient to hamper the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I suggest you get to it. I am at a loss for words then at how you mistakenly assumed I was using book references to illustrate my points.

I've seen a force user and a pretty competent one in Yoda use all his concentration and struggle with very large objects which aren't resisting him and most of these debates require implications since they've never met each other. If they all existed in the same universe we'd know exactly how their powers would match up against each other.

Palpatine hurled it at Luke and it even hit him when it was redirected. It's weak. Nothing has ever shown it to be fatal unless under a prolonged time I'd imagine.

Mace Windu wasn't killed or you can't prove he was by the lightning but the fall sure was going to kill him either way.

He clearly states now you will die and despite him wanting to kill him with it he walks away with no long term damage. The blasts prior to were for torturing.

We see Sauron do so on film. Sauron actually is killing these men as well and destroys a sword simply by stepping on it. Yoda never ever took out an elite opponent by gesturing their way. Also if force lightning which didn't ko Luke can ko Yoda I don't have high hopes for his durability.

I haven't disregarded anything of the sort. I am simply going with the more logical outcome here.


So what kind of strength do you think Sauron has to send multiple battle armored men in the air 30 or so feet or to crush swords by stepping on them. I guess you don't feel he's strong and you're being unreasonable again. It's ok.

NemeBro
Sauron was killed by a wounded man with a broken sword on-screen too.

With all due respect to this quanchi fellow (I leave it to you all to interpret how much respect that is), I'm not sure anyone will gain traction in this argument. As demonstrated here and in the thread involving Voldemort and the One Ring, he sees fit to disregard the events of the films and rewrite them at will.

I'm going to quit while I'm ahead, but it'll be interesting to see where this goes.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
facepalm

Probably the same kind of idiot who doesn't foresee complications (cutting off the finger that carries the source of his power) arising in a battle involving thousands of enemies each wielding razor sharp weapons.

It was a lucky strike or do you feel Isuldur can defeat him one on one in a forum matchup ?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sauron was killed by a wounded man with a broken sword on-screen too. Palpatine was hurled in the fetal position over a fetal by a wounded past his prime man.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It was a lucky strike or do you feel Isuldur can defeat him one on one in a forum matchup ?

Palpatine was hurled in the fetal position over a fetal by a wounded past his prime man. Hey did you know that in the books Elendil, Isildur's father, did in fact best Sauron in combat?

Just a fun fact.

Palpatine was lifted off the ground by a two meter tall cyborg with superhuman strength, and Palpatine killed him too.

Whoa.

quanchi
It was a lucky strike or do you feel Isuldur can defeat him one on one in a forum matchup ?

quanchi
Palpatine was hurled in the fetal position over a fetal by a wounded past his prime man.

facepalm

I'm running a parallel, quanchi. Isuldur might not beat Sauron in a fight, but neither would Vader beat Palpatine. Your argument is irretrievably stupid: Both were brought down by lucky sneak attacks from inferior opponents. Why are the others arguing Palpatine is smarter? Because his intellectual feats dwarf Sauron's. As with the actual argument about the duel, you're indulging in hypocritical cherrypicking and outright fraud to try to carry the day. The others can take it from here because I'm not interested in wasting my time with someone who indulges in such tactics.

Oh, and don't worry, I am well aware of how futile arguing with Quanchi is.

But... His train of thought is so incredibly interesting to watch.

NemeBro
Oh, and don't worry, I am well aware of how futile arguing with Quanchi is.

But... His trainwreck of thought is so incredibly interesting to watch.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
facepalm

I'm running a parallel, quanchi. Isuldur might not beat Sauron in a fight, but neither would Vader beat Palpatine. Your argument is irretrievably stupid: Both were brought down by lucky sneak attacks from inferior opponents. Why are the others arguing Palpatine is smarter? Because his intellectual feats dwarf Sauron's. As with the actual argument about the duel, you're indulging in hypocritical cherrypicking and outright fraud to try to carry the day. The others can take it from here because I'm not interested in wasting my time with someone who indulges in such tactics. Palpatine himself states Vader will become more powerful than either of us. That's out of his own mouth and to suggest it's a parallel is being dishonest due to the fact Isuldur has no chance whatsoever against Sauron whereas Vader does actually have a good chance of beating Palpatine even according to Palpatine.

The only advantage Palpatine had was that the jedi weren't aware of him which wasn't possible in Sauron's case. You can take the high road all you want and flee just like Palpatine tried to flee from yoda but I won't have it.

Palpatine said that before Vader became the Tinman.

They all ran away, screaming, with their faces on fire.


Indeed, and don't forget how formidable he was against Merry! It took a whole hobbit to bring him to his knees and a crippled woman to stab him in the face.

Note: Yoda is not a man. Yoda throws lightsaber into Witch King's face. Witch King sputters and spazzes out of existence.






DGSVzdNBKVg




This is completely irrelevant. The elves do not die of old age; they are no less susceptible to blunt force trauma, massive blood loss and deep puncture wounds than the humans they so often die with.

In fact, Saruman was just as "immortal" as the elves, if not moreso; he's killed by a knife to the back.

Note: Yoda throws lightsaber into Saruman's back. Saruman dies dramatically.






I get that you're not very quick on the uptake, but you've had four pages to make your case and you haven't done it. The prudent thing to do at this point would be to concede quietly, not to attempt to belittle a character unrelated to the thread through bullshit and misdirection using source material from a universe you are not familiar with.

Edit: I hope you don't think I'm angry at you, I've concluded that you probably don't know any better. This is all Truculent's fault, and he will be dealt with.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hey did you know that in the books Elendil, Isildur's father, did in fact best Sauron in combat?

Just a fun fact.

Palpatine was lifted off the ground by a two meter tall cyborg with superhuman strength, and Palpatine killed him too.

Whoa. This is the movie version only. Nice try though. Vader was already wounded and wasn't in the greatest shape but Palpatine looked harmless and quite scared as he plummeted to his own death at the height of power.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Palpatine said that before Vader became the Tinman. So do you feel Vader has no shot against Palpatine at all via the suit ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is the movie version only. Nice try though. Vader was already wounded and wasn't in the greatest shape but Palpatine looked harmless and quite scared as he plummeted to his own death at the height of power. Oh I know it is movies only. Was just letting you know.

Vader was fine. He lost his mechanical hand. Whoopity ****ing doo.

Palpatine was being thrown into the reactor core of a space station. Of course he was scared.

Originally posted by Eminence


They all ran away, screaming, with their faces on fire.


Indeed, and don't forget how formidable he was against Merry! It took a whole hobbit to bring him to his knees and a crippled woman to stab him in the face.

Note: Yoda is not a man. Yoda throws lightsaber into Witch King's face. Witch King sputters and spazzes out of existence.






DGSVzdNBKVg




This is completely irrelevant. The elves do not die of old age; they are no less susceptible to blunt force trauma, massive blood loss and deep puncture wounds than the humans they so often die with.

In fact, Saruman was just as "immortal" as the elves, if not moreso; he's killed by a knife to the back.

Note: Yoda throws lightsaber into Saruman's back. Saruman dies dramatically.






I get that you're not very quick on the uptake, but you've had four pages to make your case and you haven't done it. The prudent thing to do at this point would be to concede quietly, not to attempt to belittle a character unrelated to the thread through bullshit and misdirection using source material from a universe you are not familiar with.

Edit: I hope you don't think I'm angry at you, I've concluded that you probably don't know any better. This is all Truculent's fault, and he will be dealt with. Yes, due to weakness exploitation they weren't killed.

Yes, a stab to the face would kill Yoda as well. Do you feel Yoda would survive a stab to his face or something ?

Yes, ok ? What is this supposed to prove ?

What you leave out is the experience age brings anyone. To argue a human being who is 35 compares to an elf 700 years old is just silly. Imagine what kind of experience, skills, and tactics you can attain in a huge lifespan.

A knife to the back of the head would also kill Yoda. The guy instead dies of old age, lol.

The case is simple he powers up through his ring and kills them both when he strikes in their general vicinity. Yoda's been ko'd by force lightning the only one ever ko'd by it with the likes of it hitting Palpatine, Luke, Windu, and Vader.

I get it you simply don't agree with it but I supported my assertion through feats and if you continue to disagree then bring it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh I know it is movies only. Was just letting you know.

Vader was fine. He lost his mechanical hand. Whoopity ****ing doo.

Palpatine was being thrown into the reactor core of a space station. Of course he was scared. So you were just posting something outside of the movie forum because you know I am correct.

Vader wasn't fine.

Palpatine was terrified of Windu as well when he was about to kill him and actually tried fleeing from yoda so a lack of courage is in his dna.

quanchi112
Yes, due to weakness exploitation they weren't killed.
Weakness to torches, rivers and eagles? An inability to overcome one man and four cowering hobbits?

Your Nazgul are not particularly formidable creatures, are they?




We are simply establishing the pitiful ease with which your vaunted Witch King was dispatched, and that his worth to this thread is subsequently immaterial.


I suppose I should have started there.

What is Gandalf's deflection of one arrow supposed to prove?


Unless experience confers a dramatic increase in resilience, particularly to being smashed in the face, your attempt to supplant your Man remains unabashed, dishonest fluff.


That you find being ignominiously shanked by an underling a more redeeming death than gently passing into ethereal immortality at the age of nine hundred after rather notably not being killed in combat by is telling.

I'll let mattatom know.


And this is nonsense. He can be dismantled at a distance via flying lightsabers and given how goddamn slow he is I'm sure either Jedi could dance circles around him at striking distance.


He also survived a several hundred foot fall (broken repeatedly by collision with hunks of metal) after a ball of said lightning exploded in his face.




Sauron's singular feat is hammering away a few terrified, very much mortal soldiers with nowhere to run and only swords to hit him with. This lasted all of a minute before one of those guys, ass planted firmly on the ground, annihilated him with a single stroke of a broken sword.

Once more: Yoda cuts his finger off. He doesn't even need to get within striking distance to do it. What is Sauron's defense?

Originally posted by Eminence
Weakness to torches, rivers and eagles? An inability to overcome one man and four cowering hobbits?

Your Nazgul are not particularly formidable creatures, are they?




We are simply establishing the pitiful ease with which your vaunted Witch King was dispatched, and that his worth to this thread is subsequently immaterial.


I suppose I should have started there.

What is Gandalf's deflection of one arrow supposed to prove?


Unless experience confers a dramatic increase in resilience, particularly to being smashed in the face, your attempt to supplant your Man remains unabashed, dishonest fluff.


That you find being ignominiously shanked by an underling a more redeeming death than gently passing into ethereal immortality at the age of nine hundred after rather notably not being killed in combat by is telling.

I'll let mattatom know.


And this is nonsense. He can be dismantled at a distance via flying lightsabers and given how goddamn slow he is I'm sure either Jedi could dance circles around him at striking distance.


He also survived a several hundred foot fall (broken repeatedly by collision with hunks of metal) after a ball of said lightning exploded in his face.




Sauron's singular feat is hammering away a few terrified, very much mortal soldiers with nowhere to run and only swords to hit him with. This lasted all of a minute before one of those guys, ass planted firmly on the ground, annihilated him with a single stroke of a broken sword.

Once more: Yoda cuts his finger off. He doesn't even need to get within striking distance to do it. What is Sauron's defense? The hobbits weren't the problem it was Aragorn and the fire weakness. Yes, turning a river against someone and overpowering them is just weak because Yoda would totally surf the waves and overpower it.

So after destroying the woman and toying with her I guess being stabbed in the back by someone you are completely unaware of translates into a forum matchup where your opponents don't surprise you while fighting someone else leaving an opening to stab you in the face.

Hey remember that time when it was just Yoda and palpatine and Yoda failed to block Palpatine's force lightning when he raised his hands slower than molasses.

That his reactionary time and hand to hand skills are pretty formidable.

So having a race of immortals gives you no advantages at all ? Interesting thoughts, really ? Hundreds of years of wisdom and experience mean nothing to you. Good to know. More training and in the ways of combat according to you don't improve either which is illogical any way you look at it.

If Yoda was caught unaware he'd die is the point. Yoda failed in his objective when Palpatine survived and he died alone on some random barren planet.

Based off of what ? What is a light saber throw going to do that will kill him ? Please back up your case.

So what ? The lightning ko'd him and his frame is anything but durable. One swipe and he's dead.

I guess annihilated to you means cutting a few fingers off which luckily had the ring on it. Sauron isn't going to reach down on a grounded Yoda or Obi here leaving himself vulnerable.

Yoda doesn't get close enough to do so the mace kills him prior to him closing the gap. Yoda never disarmed a skilled opponent in star wars. Yoda dies faster than the armored humans he was murdering.

Yoda solos 10/10...

This is spite...

Originally posted by quanchi112
So do you feel Vader has no shot against Palpatine at all via the suit ?

Vader sure thought he had no chance at least. Thats why he was the mans b*tch for 20 years after all.

(Hint: No, he had no chance)

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Yoda solos 10/10...

This is spite... Despite Yoda not beating dooku who he was more skilled than or not defeating Palpatine in which the galaxy's fate loomed in the balance.....Sauron solos.Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader sure thought he had no chance at least. Thats why he was the mans b*tch for 20 years after all.

(Hint: No, he had no chance) Vader was a broken mad due to Palpatine making him think it was he who killed Padme. Context. When Vader turned he killed Palpatine.

George Lucas has directly stated Palpatine was stronger than Vader.

But stop dodging the point.

Said point being that I won this thread when I posted a speed feat a page or so back that proves Obi when he was a Jedi Padawan was easily fast enough to cut Sauron in half before he could begin to swing his mace.

Originally posted by NemeBro
George Lucas has directly stated Palpatine was stronger than Vader.

But stop dodging the point.

Said point being that I won this thread when I posted a speed feat a page or so back that proves Obi when he was a Jedi Padawan was easily fast enough to cut Sauron in half before he could begin to swing his mace. Vader was also stronger than Obi Wan that doesn't mean Obi can't best him. Palpatine himself states in the movie that Vader will become more more powerful than both himself and Yoda.

I've seen Obi as a padawan rocked by tk and therefore disarmed by tk. Saruman tks him. Look I posted the exact same thing which disarmed Obi which is in Saruman's capabilities. I just won the thread.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron wasn't killed when he lost his ring whereas Palpatine was completely destroyed. Dying in battle in terms of intelligence is fr superior then being caught completely off guard while your head enforcer is watching you kill his son. What kind of an idiot doesn't foresee complications arising in this ?

Sauron kicked immortals asses on screen. The elves were immortal and feared him.

In the end all baddies most lose but losing in battle with all kinds of variables coming at you while Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu and then put himself in harms way at the height of power when he didn't need to.

Again, Palpatine's plans worked out for him, he created his galactic empire. Sauron failed twice in trying to dominate some lands. Who's the idiot?

Hahah. Ah, so the Elves you meant now. Well. Palpatine would kill elves just fine.

Again. Which leader had their plans come to fruition and which leader was defeated twice? That simple, really.

Originally posted by Robtard
Again, Palpatine's plans worked out for him, he created his galactic empire. Sauron failed twice in trying to dominate some lands. Who's the idiot?

Ah, so the Elves. Well, Yoda and Obi Wan would kick their asses too.

Again. Who which leader had their plans come to fruition and which leader was defeated twice? That simple, really. Sauron survived despite having his body destroyed. Not foreseeing someone betraying you while attempting to murder their own son in front of them has to be one of the stupidest and easy to see ways of death ever captured on screen.

Yoda and Obi would fail just like they did in Star Wars. Yoda would then retreat and live out his days as a hermit again.

Palpatine's plans came true because Anakin intervened and saved his miserable life the moment he was defeated in battle once the jedi became aware of who he really was. Being lucky and begging for your life to later die in the fetal position while screaming to your death isn't impressive.

Sauron outlived his initial defeat while Palpatine just died when his plans utterly failed of turning Luke to the dark side.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sauron survived despite having his body destroyed. Not foreseeing someone betraying you while attempting to murder their own son in front of them has to be one of the stupidest and easy to see ways of death ever captured on screen.

Yoda and Obi would fail just like they did in Star Wars. Yoda would then retreat and live out his days as a hermit again.

Palpatine's plans came true because Anakin intervened and saved his miserable life the moment he was defeated in battle once the jedi became aware of who he really was. Being lucky and begging for your life to later die in the fetal position while screaming to your death isn't impressive.

Sauron outlived his initial defeat while Palpatine just died when his plans utterly failed of turning Luke to the dark side.

Yes, we covered this. He survived as a giant eye for an age only to have his plans fail and be defeated again; this time destroyed.

Really depends on the size of the middle earth army; they do a lot of damage before going down. But what wouldn't happen, they'd not stupidly lose via injured man with a broken blade. While a small unit of clones would wreck Sauron.

Palpatine's plans worked, he was trying to convert Anakin early on. Palpatine is 1-1. Sauron is 0-2. That simply, really.

He "lived" to just fail again. ie why his record is a miserable 0-2.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, we covered this. He survived as a giant eye for an age only to have his plans fail and be defeated again; this time destroyed.

Really depends on the size of the middle earth army; they do a lot of damage before going down. But what wouldn't happen, they'd not stupidly lose via injured man with a broken blade. While a small unit of clones would wreck Sauron.

Palpatine's plans worked, he was trying to convert Anakin early on. Palpatine is 1-1. Sauron is 0-2. That simply, really.

He "lived" to just fail again. ie why his record is a miserable 0-2. Yes, he did survive and was finally destroyed due to Gollum's obsession with the ring. All baddies lose sooner or later but best to die like men like babies screaming down shafts of doom.

They'd lose not to a lucky strike that cuts off a finger but by being overwhelmed.

Palpatine was lucky. He begged for his life against windu and Anakin granted his wish. Once Anakin tired of Palpatine's obsession with the dark side he tossed him down a shaft.

Sauron's victory was forging the ring and binding the world in darkness. Sauron turned the tide of battle unlike Palpatine who tried fleeing from Yoda, begged for his life against Windu, and then screamed like a baby when Vader hip tossed him to his death. Not really the stuff of courage.

Sauron had no victory. Dude is 0-2. Accept it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sauron had no victory. Dude is 0-2. Accept it. Handing out the rings was his initial victory. Was his plan to dupe over men and such with the rings or wasn't it ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Handing out the rings was his initial victory. Was his plan to dupe over men and such with the rings or wasn't it ?

And how did that work out for him? Defeated at the war of the last alliance and then destroyed by a hobbit.

Dude is 0-2, accept it.

Originally posted by Robtard
And how did that work out for him? Defeated at the war of the last alliance and then destroyed by a hobbit.

Dude is 0-2, accept it. Just like Palpatine they both were defeated like most evil baddies.

Sauron only truly lost once when the ring was destroyed but Fordo was seduced by it and if it wasn't for Gollum's interference sauron would have returned.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just like Palpatine they both were defeated like most evil baddies.

Sauron only truly lost once when the ring was destroyed but Fordo was seduced by it and if it wasn't for Gollum's interference sauron would have returned.

No, not "just like" Palpatine. Palpatine has a record of 1-1, his initial plan of conquering a galaxy worked.

No, 0-2, just accept it.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, not "just like" Palpatine. Palpatine has a record of 1-1, his initial plan of conquering a galaxy worked.

No, 0-2, just accept it. Wrong. Palpatine was spared by Anakin's hand he in a sense got beaten by Windu one on one.

Sauron's initial plan of forging the rings and passing them out worked as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Wrong. Palpatine was spared by Anakin's hand he in a sense got beaten by Windu one on one.

Sauron's initial plan of forging the rings and passing them out worked as well.

Palpatine's plan to conquer the galaxy worked. Little slips along the way doesn't mean the plain failed. He's 1-1.

So you're taking one facet of Sauron's plan and saying that was a win in of itself but ignoring that he his goals where crushed twice? LoL. Sauron is 0-2, accept it.

One guy conquered a galaxy; the other guy failed to conquer part of a world/planet(twice no less). That simple, really.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palpatine's plan to conquer the galaxy worked. Little slips along the way doesn't mean the plain failed. He's 1-1.

So you're taking one facet of Sauron's plan and saying that was a win in of itself but ignoring that he his goals where crushed twice? LoL. Sauron is 0-2, accept it.

One guy conquered a galaxy; the other guy failed to conquer part of a world/planet(twice no less). That simple, really. Palpatine wanted to destroy the entire jedi order so he failed and in the end it cost him.

Sauron's initial plan of corrupting the world succeeded whereas his plan to rule over the entire realm stopped short just like Palpatine's plan of destroying the entire jedi order stopped short.

Palpatine was also lucky to live as long as he did due to Anakin's womanly fear of losing Padme.

LoL, his ultimate plan was to conquer a galaxy; it worked. Little slip-ups like two Jedi escaping doesn't negate that.

Sauron did not "corrupt the world", since we had the war of the final allianace. There were those who joined together to fight against the great evil, that was the point.

Palpatine didn't rely much on luck, he was a master planer and schemer. Now Sauron was lucky Isildor was a weak-willed *****, else Sauron would have been ultimately destroyed in the second age, nice of you to ignore that.

Final score. Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2.

Way to go with the misdirection, Quan. Stay on target.

That being said, if this is movie version, Legolas solos all of Mordor after being mind tricked by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Movie feats for Middle-Earth villains are few and far in between. The only thing I could agree on is that Sauron's melee hits are incredibly strong and could incap Obi or Yoda should it hit. Considering the reflexes, Force-aided speed boost, and precog of his opponents, Sauron would be lucky to land such a blow.

Saruman is a non-factor. His voice wouldn't aid him here, and his wizard abilities in the movie are limited to chanting up storms (irrelevant), getting really close and TKing with his staff (useless) and a fireball of dubious quality (avoidable). He might as well sit on the sidelines.

Meanwhile, Sauron is slow moving, has one mode of attack (swing mace back and forth), and his magical powers are not detailed in the movie. In combat, he uses none. Assuming powers based on the actions of the Nazgul is silly; that's like saying Mace Windu has Shatterpoint; therefore Yoda does too. You can only conclude that he can be physically cut into pieces and rendered KO'd for the purpose of the battle.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, his ultimate plan was to conquer a galaxy; it worked. Little slip-ups like two Jedi escaping doesn't negate that.

Sauron did not "corrupt the world", since we had the war of the final allianace. There were those who joined together to fight against the great evil, that was the point.

Palpatine didn't rely much on luck, he was a master planer and schemer. Now Sauron was lucky Isildor was a weak-willed *****, else Sauron would have been ultimately destroyed in the second age, nice of you to ignore that.

Final score. Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2. Yoda and Obi aren't minor jedi they were crucial and the resistance was never defeated. The world was corrupted but wasn't completely under his control just like the galaxy wasn't ever completely under Palpatine's control.


Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu. We see his skills completely fail against Windu and we also see Palpatine caught completely off guard by Yoda's attack on his life.

Everyone in lotr feared the ring which included Gandalf as well. You put the ring on you are going to submit sooner or later. Gandalf knew not to put it on.

Sauron living past his initial defeat>>Palpatine dying in the fetal position while supplying the means to his defeat.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Way to go with the misdirection, Quan. Stay on target.

That being said, if this is movie version, Legolas solos all of Mordor after being mind tricked by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Movie feats for Middle-Earth villains are few and far in between. The only thing I could agree on is that Sauron's melee hits are incredibly strong and could incap Obi or Yoda should it hit. Considering the reflexes, Force-aided speed boost, and precog of his opponents, Sauron would be lucky to land such a blow.

Saruman is a non-factor. His voice wouldn't aid him here, and his wizard abilities in the movie are limited to chanting up storms (irrelevant), getting really close and TKing with his staff (useless) and a fireball of dubious quality (avoidable). He might as well sit on the sidelines.

Meanwhile, Sauron is slow moving, has one mode of attack (swing mace back and forth), and his magical powers are not detailed in the movie. In combat, he uses none. Assuming powers based on the actions of the Nazgul is silly; that's like saying Mace Windu has Shatterpoint; therefore Yoda does too. You can only conclude that he can be physically cut into pieces and rendered KO'd for the purpose of the battle. I unlike you can debate a myriad of topics please try and relax for a moment. Legolas can't beat Gandalf, Saruman, the Balrog, nor the Witch King, nor even stand a chance against Sauron. Nice try wanking his feats and dismissing the portrayal of the movies but not on my watch.

Tking sure disarmed Obi Wan so I see no reason why he's irrelevant here. I'm sure he will have some nice feats coming up in the hobbit as well since you're completely dependent on feats and have no way of comprehending portrayals it will at least make more sense to you.

Assuming Sauron gives powers to Witch King but doesn't possess them himself is silly since he's portrayed as vastly superior to the Nazgul. Sauron has to only hit in the general direction and it's a wrap. Saruman can keep them honest with his tk and fireballs while Sauron just has to swing and amp himself with his ring.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda and Obi aren't minor jedi they were crucial and the resistance was never defeated. The world was corrupted but wasn't completely under his control just like the galaxy wasn't ever completely under Palpatine's control.

Palpatine was lucky to survive against Windu. We see his skills completely fail against Windu and we also see Palpatine caught completely off guard by Yoda's attack on his life.

Everyone in lotr feared the ring which included Gandalf as well. You put the ring on you are going to submit sooner or later. Gandalf knew not to put it on.

Sauron living past his initial defeat>>Palpatine dying in the fetal position while supplying the means to his defeat.

Galactic Empire was achieved. Enslavement of part of a world failed twice. So the score is still Palpatine 1-1; Sauron 0-2, just accept it.

Mace is no smuck; he'd wreck Sauron too. Froce-crush his little hand, making Sauron drop his mace on his foot.

Frodo did pretty well, considering he took it all the way to Mordor. But this is irrelevant.

Repeat: Sauron getting pwned by an injured man and being turned into a giant eye for an age isn't greater than Palpatine creating a galactic empire and then ruling it for 20 years.

Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2. That simple.

Originally posted by Robtard
Galactic Empire was achieved. Enslavement of part of a world failed twice. So the score is still Palpatine 1-1; Sauron 0-2, just accept it.

Mace is no smuck; he'd wreck Sauron too. Froce-crush his little hand, making Sauron drop his mace on his foot.

Frodo did pretty well, considering he took it all the way to Mordor. But this is irrelevant.

Repeat: Sauron getting pwned by an injured man and being turned into a giant eye for an age isn't greater than Palpatine creating a galactic empire and then ruling it for 20 years.

Palpatine 1-1. Sauron 0-2. That simple. Rings were forged and just like Palpatine there were those who resisted but unlike sauron who didn't beg for his life he wasn't resucured like a fair maiden by the hands of Anakin.

Mace would be annihilated by Sauron. He's just too powerful from a stronger verse where magic makes jedi and sith look inferior.

He failed right at the finish line which shows you how powerful the ring's hold is over the wearer.

Cutting a finger off with a lucky strike is all that occurred. Palpatine getting waxed by Windu and trying to run from Yoda shows his true colors.


Sauron has the advantage.

Wow. I have to cast my judgement here, and that would be, that you people do terrible suck, each side for different reasons. Ignoring the pointless feat war business going on here ("But Sidious ruled a galaxy..." Who the hell cares?), lets break this fight down for you.

Known combat-related feats

Yoda and Obi-Wan

various instances of telekinesis, ranging from tossing humans around (Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith) to the levitation of seemingly massive metal structures (Yoda, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith
precognition, which allows Jedi to react extremely fast on attacks directed at them
force enhanced speed, allowing Obi-Wan to handle an opponent wielding four lightsabers (Revenge of the Sith) and granting Yoda the ability to deflect roughly 40 blaster bolts in round about 3 seconds (Revenge of the Sith)
lightsaber skill


Saruman and Sauron

various instances of telekinesis. Saruman has been shown to tossing Gandalf around like a ragdoll (Fellowship of the Ring), while one could argue, that Sauron's mace emits some telekinetic waves in order to throw people around.
if you don't want to accept the latter point, one would need to add "superhuman strength" to Saurons abilities, able to toss dozens of human beings in full armor around like ragdolls - which is probably true regardless of the first argument, because the guy is a freaking giant that towers above the elves and men alike.
mind-control over a rather huge distance (Saruman mind controlling Theoden in The Two Towers)
influencing people by talking to them (implied for Saruman in The Two Towers and Return of the King)
throwing fireballs (Saruman in the Return of the King extended cut)
influencing / controlling the weather, specifically lightning (Saruman in Fellowship of the Ring)


Those are the feats that I can list on top of my head. One could make the assertion, that Saruman does possess the same powers Gandalf has demonstrated throughout the series. That would be:


creation of magical shields against physical/magical attacks (Gandalf fighting the Balrog in Fellowship of the Ring)
dealing damage to inanimate objects almost at will (Gandalf destroying the bridge under the Balrog in Fellowship
extreme fast reaction time (Gandalf deflecting arrow shot at him by Legolas in The Two Towers)
ability to work several magical effects a the same time (Gandalf upon meeting the trio of Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn heats up Aragorns sword, causing him to trop it, blinds the trio, deflects the arrow and sets it aflame)
ability to channel blinding lights in forms of beams / waves (The Two Towers against the Orc army; Return of the King against the Nazghul)
ability to summon lightning at will (used by Gandalf to kill the Balrog, The Two Towers)
very high resistance to actual physical damage, if we consider Gandalfs fall into the depths of Moria.


Since Sauron is more powerful than either Gandalf and Saruman (by their own admissions respectively), one could also make the guess, that he would be able to reproduce their feats, perhabs on an even greater scale. The rest of the saga (not taken into account here usually) would also point to that idea.

Conclusions

From the presented material, one could probably conclude, that the Jedi would overwhelm Saruman and Sauron in a straight forward melee fight. Yoda appears much faster than either member of the middle-earth team and could probably run circles around either of the two opponents. Kenobi handles his weapon well enough to draw out fights for a very long time, even when facing skilled fighters. Additionally, one should assume that, if a piece of wood is enough to kill Saruman - even if he has some superhuman ability to tank physical damage - a lightsaber would certainly be enough to do the job. The same can be said about Sauron, because a lightsaber is certainly the better weaponary compared to some metal sword. Correct?

Wrong. The crux with the latter point is, that Sauron wasn't defeated with an ordinary blade. The sword (Narsil) that Isildur did utilize there is clearly magical, given that it stays sharp, despite lying around in shreds for more than 3000 years (Boromir cuts himself with the blade in The Fellowship of the ring) and the fact that it is capable to withstand the attacks of ghosts (as seen when Aragorn confronts the King of the Ghost Army in The Return of the King). Thus it is rather questionable if Sauron while wearing the ring can be touched by any ordinary weapon - even if said weapon is a lightsaber. The commentary to the introduction of "FotR" clearly states, that "Victory was near. But the power of the Ring could not be undone."

If that is to be taken as truth, it's rather questionable if Sauron can be defeated at all, unless some magical weapon is used.

Another setup for this fight could result in a totally different outcome: If the opponents decide to exchange first blows over a certain distance, it would seem that the Jedi just have a small chance of overcoming their opposition, because in the "magic and force"-department, Obi-Wan is probably the least capable of all four combatants. And I can't see Yoda removing one of the opponents from the fight with a force push either.

Considering this ideas, I would have to support the idea that Team Middle-Earth might win this little confrontation here, but only barely. That depends upon whether one thinks, that the Jedi can make it into melee range and whether Sauron can be harmed with a "regular" weapon while wearing the One Ring.

Someone needs a hug.

Need a hug man?