Jsa Mordru Vs Dov Captain Marvel

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Prep-Man
who wins?

quanchi112
Marvel, hard.

Sundipped
Mordru dies horribly.

Prep-Man
Mordru is immortal.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Mordru is immortal.

Mordru also had problems with Dr.Fate and Shazam who were both murdered by hostless Spectre who could only be matched by Captain Marvel. So it's DOV CM>Mordru.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Sundipped
Mordru also had problems with Dr.Fate and Shazam who were both murdered by hostless Spectre who could only be matched by Captain Marvel. So it's DOV CM>Mordru.

Mordru beat SHAZAM in ROE and owned Dr. Fate.

Don't knock Fate, because in the past he has defeated Spectre as well.

JakeTheBank
Roided out Billy FTW

Uriel005
Normal Mordru edges out just barely IMO. Future Mordru/Mordru that killed/destroyed RoE would wreck him.

Cogito
Close fight. I think Spectre, and by proxy CM, was meant to be better than any of the Lords of Order/Chaos, including Mordru.

So, I gotta go with Billy

Uriel005
Originally posted by Cogito
Close fight. I think Spectre, and by proxy CM, was meant to be better than any of the Lords of Order/Chaos, including Mordru.

So, I gotta go with Billy Don't be to sure of that. Mordru while technically being a Lord of Chaos is only that on the writers simply stating that despite the fact that his character is a bit beyond that. It's a given that he will be the last one standing after consuming the Lords of Order and Chaos. Also he's kind of a universal mystery in my book he has no beginning or end and doesn't rational of a Lord of Order but at the same time his goals don't fully fall in line with the Lords of Chaos as well. He's a bit of an anomaly beyond his immortality in that his power always seems to be a bit of a +1 over everything not exploiting his claustrophobia.

Cogito
Originally posted by Uriel005
Don't be to sure of that. Mordru while technically being a Lord of Chaos is only that on a technicality. It's a given that he will be the last one standing after consuming the Lords of Order and Chaos. Also he's kind of a universal mystery in my book he has no beginning or end and doesn't rational of a Lord of Order but at the same time his goals don't fully fall in line with the Lords of Chaos as well. He's a bit of an anomaly beyond his immortality in that his power always seems to be a bit of a +1 over everything not exploiting his claustrophobia.

All true. It still seemed to me that Spectre was supposed to be greater.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Cogito
All true. It still seemed to me that Spectre was supposed to be greater. I dunno Mordru always just seemed to be that one dick who's got an infinite reservoir of power that he doesn't use just to troll everyone when they realize that outside of an exploit they never seem to be able to outpower him no matter how many upgrades/party members join the fight.

Cogito
Mordru's boss

Uriel005
Originally posted by Cogito
Mordru's boss indeed he is. But like I said JSA Mordru has a slight edge though thinking back I'll revise that and say that it's a slight edge either way if not an outright split. However more powerful incarnations of Mordru would take this I think.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Mordru beat SHAZAM in ROE and owned Dr. Fate.

Don't knock Fate, because in the past he has defeated Spectre as well.

Mordru got imprisoned in ROE by Fate. Shazam had to turn around and fight Spectre right after Mordru he wasn't necessarily defeated.

Sundipped
Just reread the title but I still think DOV CM>>JSA Mordru.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Sundipped
Mordru got imprisoned in ROE by Fate. Shazam had to turn around and fight Spectre right after Mordru he wasn't necessarily defeated.

Eventually, yes, but Hector eventually became as powerful as the 1st Fate. Who went toe to toe with Spectre on a few occasions. I don't know who would win this fight, but I think Mordru can win a few fights.

SquallX
Originally posted by Sundipped
Mordru got imprisoned in ROE by Fate. Shazam had to turn around and fight Spectre right after Mordru he wasn't necessarily defeated.

Wasn't he still manipulate a few things even after he sealed. He was also siphoning powers form the ROE.

Juntai
Powered up Captain Marvel > Mordru = Nabu, roughly.
Spectre also > Mordru = Nabu, roughly.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Juntai
Powered up Captain Marvel > Mordru = Nabu, roughly.
Spectre also > Mordru = Nabu, roughly. maybe earlier in JSA spectre but as time went on he really did start to outpace Nabu and Shazam. IDK Mordru feats just seem more impressive to me and then there's the fact that it's basically a given he will be last man standing in the fight between order/chaos based on his capabilities to absorb/inability to die... ever. His origins are beyond the universe and his end is beyond entropy of everything. He's got a nasty habit of absorbing intangible forces and the power of others even when the power he's trying to take is completely ridiculous... If the fight goes on long enough I see Marvel getting drained.

tsscls
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Eventually, yes, but Hector eventually became as powerful as the 1st Fate. Who went toe to toe with Spectre on a few occasions. I don't know who would win this fight, but I think Mordru can win a few fights.
^
this
smile

Sundipped
Originally posted by SquallX
Wasn't he still manipulate a few things even after he sealed. He was also siphoning powers form the ROE.

Yeah he actually merged with the rock itself and managed to escape when Shazam blasted him.

Juntai
Originally posted by Uriel005
maybe earlier in JSA spectre but as time went on he really did start to outpace Nabu and Shazam. IDK Mordru feats just seem more impressive to me and then there's the fact that it's basically a given he will be last man standing in the fight between order/chaos based on his capabilities to absorb/inability to die... ever. His origins are beyond the universe and his end is beyond entropy of everything. He's got a nasty habit of absorbing intangible forces and the power of others even when the power he's trying to take is completely ridiculous... If the fight goes on long enough I see Marvel getting drained. Disagree, Nabu was still going to toe to toe with Mordru during the Crisis, and they were all ants next to Spectre's power, who Captain Marvel was comparable to.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Juntai
Disagree, Nabu was still going to toe to toe with Mordru during the Crisis, and they were all ants next to Spectre's power, who Captain Marvel was comparable to.

Would you say Nabu=Mordru or is Mordru more formidable?

Galan007
Mordru wins, imo. Here's my opinion on the matter...


We saw Billy put up a decent fight against Spectre -to the point where Spectre was "nearly" depleted of power- before getting owned. We then saw the wizard Shazam himself put up an even better fight against Spectre -to the point where Shazam could detect "no" power within Spectre- before he too was owned.

In short:
It took most of Spectre's power to match Billy:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8030/27463823.jpg

And it took all of his power (and then some) to match Shazam.
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9917/73222031.jpg

Ergo, Shazam > DoV Billy.

---

Having said that, Shazam blasted base-level Mordru with the most powerful attack he could muster (from within the RoE):
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3978/84135256.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3513/96375991.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1589/13170990.jpg
As you can see, Mordru was left completely unscathed by the attack, whereas Shazam overextended himself to such a degree that he was all but powerless and could barely stand afterward.

Thus it could be argued that base-level Mordru =/> Shazam > Billy. Adding Mordru's JSA amp to the mix only serves to widen the gap. Also keep in mind that Billy's inherent weakness is that he was unable to sustain the vast powers he had for very long before burning out. Mordru never had that problem.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
We then saw the wizard Shazam himself put up an even better fight against Spectre -to the point where Shazam could detect "no" power within Spectre- before he too was owned.

And it took all of his power (and then some) to match Shazam.

Good argument except for this part ^
Shazam put up a fight and I admit I thought Spectre was in real trouble but he regenerated from that attack, grabbed Shazam and look what happened.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8752/vsshazam8fs6.th.jpg

Shazam resisted at first but when Spectre got serious he cleaned house. Literally.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2150/vsshazam9rv2.th.jpg

zeel
DOV billy.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
Good argument except for this part ^
Shazam put up a fight and I admit I thought Spectre was in real trouble but he regenerated from that attack, grabbed Shazam and look what happened.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8752/vsshazam8fs6.th.jpg

Shazam resisted at first but when Spectre got serious he cleaned house. Literally.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2150/vsshazam9rv2.th.jpg You completely missed my point. When Spectre got "serious" he owned everyone in his path with little difficulty. I am just talking about who did better against him between Billy and Shazam- and Shazam definitely takes the cake there.

Like I said: it took MOST of Spectre's power to beat Billy -- but it literally took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.

Juntai
One thing to remember is that Billy was suddenly cut off from his power source. Is that the case here as well?

Also, the Wizard obviously had no clue how much power Spectre had.
He sense no power, and then Spectre stood right back up and called him an ignorant backwater conjurer for thinking such a thing, then owned him promptly.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
One thing to remember is that Billy was suddenly cut off from his power source. Is that the case here as well?

Also, the Wizard obviously had no clue how much power Spectre had.
He sense no power, and then Spectre stood right back up and called him an ignorant backwater conjurer for thinking such a thing, then owned him promptly. Spectre mentioned that exhaustion is one of the key elements that led to Billy's downfall. His body simply isn't used to wielding that much power- thus he burned out toward the end.

Shazam certainly had a clue how much power Spectre had. Shazam knew he couldn't kill Spectre, but he also sensed that there was no power left within him at that point in time. What Shazam was unaware of is Spectre's ability to absorb magic from anywhere- which is ultimately how he was owned. Either way, it's pretty clear (imo) that Shazam was victorious in 'round one' of their battle. The same cannot be said about Billy.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
You completely missed my point. When Spectre got "serious" he owned everyone in his path with little difficulty. I am just talking about who did better against him between Billy and Shazam- and Shazam definitely takes the cake there.

Like I said: it took MOST of Spectre's power to beat Billy -- but it literally took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.

No you got it backwards. It took most of Spectre's power to stalemate Billy, but really nothing to murder Shazam.

Only Shazam's artifacts mounted the offense. Who's to say that attack wouldn't have done the same to Mordu. Other than that, Spectre proceded to call him ignorant and said that he is power. He drained him, murdered him, destroyed ROE and left in perfectly good condition.

Spectre admitted he was drained of power (in sharp contrast to what he said to Shazam) and sensed Billy was too. Then he unleashed 1 last attack leaving Billy face down while Spectre had to be carried off.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3306/vscapt13ln2.th.jpg http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1792/vscapt14kk8.th.jpg

Big difference.

Galan007
^ g007-psyduck You still aren't seeing my point...


The conclusion of Spectre and Billy's battle:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8030/27463823.jpg

"You're nearly as drained of magic as I am." Spectre's statement implies that, while his magical energies had substantially decreased, they were not completely depleted- he still had quite a bit of power left to spare.
---
Other side of the coin, here's the first conclusion of Spectre and Shazam's battle (ie. "round ONE"wink:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9892/unledscanned16r.jpg
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9917/73222031.jpg

"I detect NO power left in him." Shazam's statement implies that Spectre was completely powerless at that point in time. It was only AFTER he absorbed the RoE's magics that Spectre went on to trounce Shazam (ie. in "round TWO".)

So like I said: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.
---
And because you're likely going to be inclined to say something like: "Hey! Spectre couldn't have been powerless, cuz his mangled body got up and talked to Shazam in the same scan you posted!!11!!!!1!" -- I'd like to remind you that Spectre can be fully functional and completely powerless at the same time. Case in point: when Black Alice absorbed his very essence:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6010/unledscanned21.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7788/unledscanned22.jpg

...So yeah.

Sr J-Bieb
Didn't Spectre need some time out to go heal himself after the Billy fight?

As opposed to just Shazam saying he's got no power, and then Spectre promptly getting up and wrecking shit up

Galan007
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Didn't Spectre need some time out to go heal himself after the Billy fight?The backlash Spectre experienced after he pulled the scepter out of Eclipso is what really seemed to f*ck him up. It was certainly the final straw.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
As opposed to just Shazam saying he's got no power, and then Spectre promptly getting up and wrecking shit up Spectre didn't have any power... Until he absorbed magic from the RoE.

He didn't even attempt to absorb any ambient magic after he trounced Billy.

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by Galan007
The backlash Spectre experienced after he pulled the scepter out of Eclipso is what really seemed to f*ck him up. It was certainly the final straw.

Spectre didn't have any power... Until he absorbed magic from the RoE.

He didn't even attempt to absorb any ambient magic after he trounced Billy. Or the asskicking from Billy

Because Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same?

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
^ g007-psyduck You still aren't seeing my point...


The conclusion of Spectre and Billy's battle:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8030/27463823.jpg

"You're nearly as drained of magic as I am." Spectre's statement implies that, while his magical energies had substantially decreased, they were not completely depleted- he still had quite a bit of power left to spare.

I understand this. He only had enough for one more attack. He had to be carried off after that.
---


What difference does it make if he was actually powerless or not? He still stomped him. He didn't stomp Billy. He let Shazam know that attack was basically a joke and that he is power. The key point is that it didn't keep Spectre down unlike his fight with Billy. Therefore Billy fared much better than Shazam. It's irrelevant if Spectre had any power left or not. Bottom line is he easily killed Shazam but had problems ith Billy.



If he can still be fully functional, what's the big deal about him being powerless or not? There was no mocking or joking with Billy. No tricks left up his sleeve like absorbing any remaining magic. It's not that hard to compare the two fights. How can you say Shazam fared better when Spectre basically laughed off his attack, murdered him and left under his own power? After fighting Billy, he could hardly stand up.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Or the asskicking from Billy

Because Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same?

Good point.
One more thing. Spectre said to Black Alice that "without my power nothings left but empty spirit". Meaning he would've been in an astral type form like shown here:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/421/blackalice5xo6.th.jpg

If what Shazam said was true, he should've been in this astral type form with no power inside ROE.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Or the asskicking from Billy

Because Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same? You've just exposed a double standard.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Or the asskicking from Billy The fight with Billy drained him- I've stated that much numerous times. But he was not completely drained of power, as he was vs. Shazam.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Because Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same? You may want to brush up on the story again. Spectre was powerless after "round one" of his and Shazam's battle. He only "contradicted" Shazam after he absorbed extra power from the RoE (an ability Shazam was unaware of.)

Originally posted by Sundipped
What difference does it make if he was actually powerless or not? He still stomped him. He didn't stomp Billy. He let Shazam know that attack was basically a joke and that he is power. The key point is that it didn't keep Spectre down unlike his fight with Billy. Therefore Billy fared much better than Shazam. It's irrelevant if Spectre had any power left or not. Bottom line is he easily killed Shazam but had problems ith Billy. You're ignoring the gargantuan difference between Spectre's battle with Billy, and his battle with Shazam: ie. his absorption of extra magical energy during the battle.

During Spectre's fight with Billy, he didn't have to absorb magical energy, because he beat Billy before the need arose.

To the contrary, Shazam effectively beat Spectre- that is to say: he owned Spectre to such an extent that he could sense no power left in him. But then Spectre displayed a power Shazam was unaware of: the ability to take magical energy from anywhere- even the RoE. Once Spectre absorbed that power, he killed off Shazam. That's why I keep saying: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.

Cogito
Hmm...this brings up a number of related issues.

Nabu and Shazam are Lords of Order. Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order, this we know.

If Shazam drained Spectre of all his power, and Spectre had an easier time with Nabu than Shazam, then from where I'm sitting one of the following must be true:

1. It was Shazam's prep that enabled him to perform as well as he did. He is not normally capable of that level.
2. Spectre was more powerful when he fought Nabu than Shazam (absorbing the RoE increased his power)
3. Shazam did not perform better than Nabu

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
Hmm...this brings up a number of related issues.

Nabu and Shazam are Lords of Order. Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order, this we know.

If Shazam drained Spectre of all his power, and Spectre had an easier time with Nabu than Shazam, then from where I'm sitting one of the following must be true:

1. It was Shazam's prep that enabled him to perform as well as he did. He is not normally capable of that level.
2. Spectre was more powerful when he fought Nabu than Shazam (absorbing the RoE increased his power)
3. Shazam did not perform better than Nabu The reason Shazam did so well against Spectre is because the fight was waged in his place of power- the RoE.

I liken it to the Trainman from the Matrix films. He was all powerful inside the confines of the train station, but outside of it his power was not nearly as spectacular.

Cogito
For some reason, that entirely slipped my mind. Ignore me erm

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by Galan007
The fight with Billy drained him- I've stated that much numerous times. But he was not completely drained of power, as he was vs. Shazam.

You may want to brush up on the story again. Spectre was powerless after "round one" of his and Shazam's battle. He only "contradicted" Shazam after he absorbed extra power from the RoE (an ability Shazam was unaware of.)

You're ignoring the gargantuan difference between Spectre's battle with Billy, and his battle with Shazam: ie. his absorption of extra magical energy during the battle.

During Spectre's fight with Billy, he didn't have to absorb magical energy, because he beat Billy before the need arose.

To the contrary, Shazam effectively beat Spectre- that is to say: he owned Spectre to such an extent that he could sense no power left in him. But then Spectre displayed a power Shazam was unaware of: the ability to take magical energy from anywhere- even the RoE. Once Spectre absorbed that power, he killed off Shazam. That's why I keep saying: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam. You're probably a good guy and all Galan, but I hate you more than warm pickles.

You may want to brush up on the story again. When they started fighting, Shazam (expert of Spectre apparently) outright said Spectre was still weakened. Shazam fought a weakened Spectre (mind you the tie in points to Shazam being weakened too) and was about to get his head caved in until he utilized his artifacts. Billy at full power against a non weakened Spectre was handing him his ass. Shazam used his full arsenal against Spectre in a one shot move. Billy didn't fire off a killing shot, or put all his power into one attack, he was just punching him. Had Billy fired off a massive Shazam bolt, I have no doubt that Spectre would have been reduced to rubble, but like it said, Billy was 'methodically' beating Spectre.
In an example I know you'll understand... It's like saying Majin Vegeta is more powerful than SS3 Goku because Vegeta managed to almost completely obliterate Buu with his most powerful attack, while all Goku did was beat the shit out of him in every aspect, yet didn't obliterate him.

Also, when Spectre was shown to be draining magic, he had a green aura around him. He didn't have a green aura around him when he rose.
I know he drained magic, and I'm not denying he lost the initial conflict, but he still had power left even if it was a little, and this doesn't prove he was above Billy, especially since Billy WAS above Spectre on his own (well, with ten thousand other magical beings funneling power into him) by a sizable amount where Spectre was essentially a punching bag waiting to be 'destroyed'. Plus, iirc Shazam was also funneling more power into Billy at that time too... so...

None of this is relevant to Mordru anyway, since Shazam didn't even use the same type of attack against him

Cogito
Well, I think writer intent was clear. Captain Marvel was meant to have faired better than any other being up until that point, vague statements notwithstanding.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Cogito
Well, I think writer intent was clear. Captain Marvel was meant to have faired better than any other being up until that point, vague statements notwithstanding. Marvel almost killed him. The Spectre was so weak Eclipso had to cart him off to space which gives credence to the Spectre's statements and fears about being killed back there.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Galan007 The reason Shazam did so well against Spectre is because the fight was waged in his place of power- the RoE. I liken it to the Trainman from the Matrix films. He was all powerful inside the confines of the train station, but outside of it his power was not nearly as spectacular.

good point. shazam is very formidable in the rock.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
You're ignoring the gargantuan difference between Spectre's battle with Billy, and his battle with Shazam: ie. his absorption of extra magical energy during the battle.

During Spectre's fight with Billy, he didn't have to absorb magical energy, because he beat Billy before the need arose.

To the contrary, Shazam effectively beat Spectre- that is to say: he owned Spectre to such an extent that he could sense no power left in him. But then Spectre displayed a power Shazam was unaware of: the ability to take magical energy from anywhere- even the RoE. Once Spectre absorbed that power, he killed off Shazam. That's why I keep saying: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.

You're clinging on to Shazam's statement for dear life now.

What kills your whole argument is that it was stated on panel by Spectre himself that with absolutely no power he only exists as an astral spirit. Did he appear in this form vs Shazam? No. In the flesh, he still had the power to get up, grab and hold a high end Skyfather then procede to drain him.

You're putting too much stock into Shazam's comment and not acknowledging Spectre's mockery of him. Spectre questioned him by saying "no power"? as if Shazam didn't know what the hell he was talking about. He called him ignorant and told him he IS power. Spectre has no problem admitting when he has no power (vs. Black Alice) or even when he's losing it (vs. Billy). He gave no indication of either vs. Shazam.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
What kills your whole argument is that it was stated on panel by Spectre himself that with absolutely no power he only exists as an astral spirit. Did he appear in this form vs Shazam? No. In the flesh, Heh, You must be referring to Black Alice. If so, you might recall that she didn't just drain Spectre's power- she momentarily replaced the very concept he embodies. Hence her statement: "I'm the divine engine of vengeance now." So essentially, Spectre had no power OR purpose. That's why he was a ghost.

Originally posted by Sundipped
he still had the power to get up, grab and hold a high end Skyfather then procede to drain him. You've got your order mixed up. Spectre only grabbed Shazam/absorbed his power after he began absorbing energy from the RoE and Shazam's relics:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9064/unledscanned17.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9035/unledscanned18.jpg

Originally posted by Sundipped
You're putting too much stock into Shazam's comment and not acknowledging Spectre's mockery of him. Spectre questioned him by saying "no power"? as if Shazam didn't know what the hell he was talking about. He called him ignorant and told him he IS power. Spectre has no problem admitting when he has no power (vs. Black Alice) or even when he's losing it (vs. Billy). He gave no indication of either vs. Shazam. Here is the entire quote...

-Shazam-
"He's probably not dead. Can one kill a ghost? But we seem to have stopped him. I detect no power left in him."

-Spectre-
"No power? Ignorant backworld conjuror. I am power. I'm the undying spirit of vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution. And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone."

When Spectre said: "I am power" he seemed to be using it in the context that the concept he embodies will always exist as long as there's a need for it. When he said: "I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone" he seemed to imply that he can, and was, momentarily drained of magical power moments beforehand- he just cannot be permanently drained of power (which I never argued.)

That, coupled with the fact that Shazam was able to finish a few-sentence-long monologue before Spectre finally got up and "corrected" him, leads me to believe that he WAS briefly powerless.

---

Regardless, even if you don't agree that Spectre was powerless against Shazam, consider this: During Spectre's battle with Billy, he NEVER appeared to sustain any physical damage, and he NEVER fell- not even once. During his battle with Shazam, however, Spectre was grossly mangled, fell to the ground, and appeared to be (albeit momentarily) incapacitated. That in itself implies Shazam > Billy.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
(mind you the tie in points to Shazam being weakened too) Good man. Most people fail to ever recognize that. thumb up

Cogito
I looked over DoV again, it had been a while since I last read it.

I had remembered Captain Marvel being the last to fight the Spectre, but apparently it actually happened before Shazam and Nabu. And yes...I do think order is important here.

I'll now agree that Shazam > DoV CM. Shazam did have prep time and artifacts to help him, though. I'm not sure how they'd compare otherwise.

Galan007
Had the battle taken place anywhere else but the RoE, Shazam would have been utterly stomped.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Had the battle taken place anywhere else but the RoE, Shazam would have been utterly stomped.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Nabu fought the Spectre on neutral ground and I wouldn't say he got stomped. While Nabu is > Shazam, I'm not sure the difference is that great.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, You must be referring to Black Alice. If so, you might recall that she didn't just drain Spectre's power- she momentarily replaced the very concept he embodies. Hence her statement: "I'm the divine engine of vengeance now." So essentially, Spectre had no power OR purpose. That's why he was a ghost.

She didn't replace him as a concept. Only took his power. She would'nt have been eligible to recieve support from the Presence. Spectre is the sole appointed undying spirit of vengance. That was her bravado talking, overexaggerating.



There was no order. I only mentioned Shazam's draining.
Here is the entire quote...



True.



That's only if you assume Shazam's attack was meant to drain Spectre. Shazam gave no indication that the attack was intended for that purpose. One thing I wanna point out is that Spectre made that comment just before absorbing everything present. To me, seemed like he was implying that as long as any magic is present he will never be deprived. Most importantly the magic within ROE.



Regeneration was in progress. That's how he went from mangled to normal. Beings get ko'ed for a period of time all the time in numerous ways but they aren't rendered powerless.



Sorry Galan but imo I just didn't see Shazam's performance comming close to Billy's. Billy beat him to the equivalent of needing a stretcher. His fists>>>Shazam's last ditch effort.

Spectre did get rocked a few times and recieved damage tho. He didn't necessarily fall (buildings cushioned it) but then again the blows were the knockout type variety.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6405/vscapt9ut9.th.jpg http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4694/vscapt12ie3.th.jpg

bbrem123
Originally posted by Cogito
Mordru's boss
this

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
She didn't replace him as a concept. Only took his power. She would'nt have been eligible to recieve support from the Presence. Spectre is the sole appointed undying spirit of vengance. That was her bravado talking, overexaggerating.In your opinion. However, Black Alice does more than just absorb power. She actually takes the entirety of what you are (so long as you're a magic-user, of course.) That's why Zatanna literally forgot how to cast spells after Alice took her powers, that's why Spectre turned into an astral spirit and could not function as "the spirit of vengeance", etc.

Originally posted by Sundipped
That's only if you assume Shazam's attack was meant to drain Spectre. Shazam gave no indication that the attack was intended for that purpose. This is a very thin line of logic. Just because Spectre's powers were drained doesn't mean Shazam was casting some sort of power-absorbing spells. It just means that Spectre's power was taxed to such an extent that he simply ran out of juice. After all, Spectre commented that his powers were being drained in his fight with Billy -- and surely you don't think Billy's punches did anything but pound the power out of Spectre...

Originally posted by Sundipped
Regeneration was in progress. That's how he went from mangled to normal. Beings get ko'ed for a period of time all the time in numerous ways but they aren't rendered powerless. There's no reason to question Shazam's senses -- especially in HIS place of power. Actually, it's borderline ridiculous to do so. Having said that, if Shazam said he could sense no power left in Spectre, then the writer obviously intended that to be the case. Coupled with the fact that Spectre was mangled and momentarily incapacitated, it's perfectly logical to assume Spectre was powerless for a brief period of time.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Sorry Galan but imo I just didn't see Shazam's performance comming close to Billy's. Billy beat him to the equivalent of needing a stretcher. His fists>>>Shazam's last ditch effort. Wrong. Spectre took everything Billy threw at him, answered back, and ultimately trounced him. At no point in time did Billy come close to incapacitating Spectre- even briefly.

Shazam, on the other hand, did briefly incapacitate Spectre. Hell, even after seeing Billy fight Spectre, Shazam still acted as though Billy's battle was only meant to delay Spectre long enough to give HIM enough time to prepare:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/unledscanned09.jpg/

Shazam > Billy. Proof is in the pudding. stick out tongue

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
In your opinion. However, Black Alice does more than just absorb power. She actually takes the entirety of what you are (so long as you're a magic-user, of course.) That's why Zatanna literally forgot how to cast spells after Alice took her powers, that's why Spectre turned into an astral spirit and could not function as "the spirit of vengeance", etc.

No. All she does is steal power. She doesn't upsurp the essence of whatever said entity. That's like saying if she stole Dr. Strange's powers she'd be the new sorcerer supreme. Spectre is basically spirit anyway so it was still functional according to the nature of what it really is.



What Shazam did was a potent all out artifacts attack hich happened to leave Spectre's torso open. Spectre regenerated, arose, then began to absorb everything. It's plain as day. Spectre was never really in any trouble. It didn't go so smoothly with Billy.



It could also be intended for the writer to make you think that Shazam thought he was right but really wasn't. Just because Shazam couldn't detect it doesn't mean it couldn't be hidden. It took something for Spectre to get himself back together. He was fully formed and back up. This was before he drained anything.



It's like we're camparing an outright murder to a basically even fight. Billy did what Shazam couldn't: Remain alive and leave the opposition in a bad condition.



All that prep and he still died. The main event was Billy and Spectre. Shazam seemed like a pieca a cake.

disgustThat pudding is spoiled. Expiration date around the same time as this arc.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Sundipped
No. All she does is steal power. She doesn't upsurp the essence of whatever said entity. That's like saying if she stole Dr. Strange's powers she'd be the new sorcerer supreme. Spectre is basically spirit anyway so it was still functional according to the nature of what it really is.



What Shazam did was a potent all out artifacts attack hich happened to leave Spectre's torso open. Spectre regenerated, arose, then began to absorb everything. It's plain as day. Spectre was never really in any trouble. It didn't go so smoothly with Billy.



It could also be intended for the writer to make you think that Shazam thought he was right but really wasn't. Just because Shazam couldn't detect it doesn't mean it couldn't be hidden. It took something for Spectre to get himself back together. He was fully formed and back up. This was before he drained anything.



It's like we're camparing an outright murder to a basically even fight. Billy did what Shazam couldn't: Remain alive and leave the opposition in a bad condition.



All that prep and he still died. The main event was Billy and Spectre. Shazam seemed like a pieca a cake.

disgustThat pudding is spoiled. Expiration date around the same time as this arc. Actually on the matter of absorbing and becoming... As far as the spectre goes the actual spirit was the angel Aztar. So I do believe that by absorbing the power of vengeance given to said angel would essentially make you the spectre due to it's inherent nature as the literal vengeance of god. Normally I would agree and say absorbing someones power doesn't make you something else but as far as I'm aware from the fight Alice straight out says that she's the spirit of vengeance and that his power is hers. Considering it's the power the vengeance of god gives the spectre which actually makes him what he is I'm inclined to believe that someone taking it for their own makes them assume the mantle.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually on the matter of absorbing and becoming... As far as the spectre goes the actual spirit was the angel Aztar. So I do believe that by absorbing the power of vengeance given to said angel would essentially make you the spectre due to it's inherent nature as the literal vengeance of god. Normally I would agree and say absorbing someones power doesn't make you something else but as far as I'm aware from the fight Alice straight out says that she's the spirit of vengeance and that his power is hers. Considering it's the power the vengeance of god gives the spectre which actually makes him what he is I'm inclined to believe that someone taking it for their own makes them assume the mantle.

Of course BA can say she's the spirit of vengeance because she stole his powers but do you think she'd be entitled to an amp from Presence? Exaggerated hyperbole occurs all the time in comics. At the time this happened, if both desired support from Presence, who do you think would be the beneficiary?

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
No. All she does is steal power. She doesn't upsurp the essence of whatever said entity. That's like saying if she stole Dr. Strange's powers she'd be the new sorcerer supreme. Spectre is basically spirit anyway so it was still functional according to the nature of what it really is.

What Shazam did was a potent all out artifacts attack hich happened to leave Spectre's torso open. Spectre regenerated, arose, then began to absorb everything. It's plain as day. Spectre was never really in any trouble. It didn't go so smoothly with Billy.

It could also be intended for the writer to make you think that Shazam thought he was right but really wasn't. Just because Shazam couldn't detect it doesn't mean it couldn't be hidden. It took something for Spectre to get himself back together. He was fully formed and back up. This was before he drained anything.

It's like we're camparing an outright murder to a basically even fight. Billy did what Shazam couldn't: Remain alive and leave the opposition in a bad condition.

All that prep and he still died. The main event was Billy and Spectre. Shazam seemed like a pieca a cake.

disgustThat pudding is spoiled. Expiration date around the same time as this arc. I'm not going to take the time to respond to all of this individually. Tbh I'm exceedingly burnt out on this circular topic (mainly because I recently debated it in another thread as well.) Regardless, I still disagree with your stance entirely, for reasons I already mentioned.

...I enjoyed the discussion, though. thumb up

Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually on the matter of absorbing and becoming... As far as the spectre goes the actual spirit was the angel Aztar. So I do believe that by absorbing the power of vengeance given to said angel would essentially make you the spectre due to it's inherent nature as the literal vengeance of god. Normally I would agree and say absorbing someones power doesn't make you something else but as far as I'm aware from the fight Alice straight out says that she's the spirit of vengeance and that his power is hers. Considering it's the power the vengeance of god gives the spectre which actually makes him what he is I'm inclined to believe that someone taking it for their own makes them assume the mantle. thumb up

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not going to take the time to respond to all of this individually. Tbh I'm exceedingly burnt out on this circular topic (mainly because I recently debated it in another thread as well.) Regardless, I still disagree with your stance entirely, for reasons I already mentioned.

...I enjoyed the discussion, though. thumb up

thumb up

I was hoping you were gonna say that because if you didn't I was going to in my next post.

By the way, I knew you were going to agree with Uriel. And because of that you both get 2 thumbs down. thumb down thumb down

cool

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