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As we all know, the DCnU is well under way. Some characters have had (or will have) fairly significant changes, while others aren't being messed with.

From my point of view, at least, the DC cosmic hierarchy has always been a shitshow to say the least, with abstracts/cosmics with little to no feats, conflicting hype, etc.

E.g.
Is the Presence a true omnipotent? What about the Primal Monitor? Will he be addressed in the DCnU?
What's the new creation story? Michael/Lucifer, Synnar, or something new?
What will be the position of the New Gods? The Old Gods?
Will 5D Imps continue to be nigh-omnipotent as they've been recently portrayed, or will they get hit with the nerf bat?
Will Hypertime still exist (as mentioned on panel, at least)?
etc...

Now, DC has never used their abstracts in the same was as Marvel. Heroes don't go appeal to the Endless for help, they've always solved problems by punching them. In a way, I've always seen the utilization of universe+ level beings as one of the major differences between the two companies, both with regard to good guys, bad guys, and neutral parties.

So, how do you guys think DC is going to handle the reintroduction of these issues? Will there be a clear and coherent direction, or will it be vague with characters whose feats and hype don't necessarily match up?

Personally, I've always thought that DC wanted their hierarchy to be vague. In a way it opens up the potential for a lot of different directions to take stories. They have, after all, done a great job recently with cosmics/abstracts in Vertigo titles. On the other hand, I see Johns as the type who likes things to be orderly and thoroughly thought out.

So, what do you think will happen? What do you want to happen?

I'm guessing the "creation" story for DCnU will likely mirror what we were told through the various Green Lantern storylines/angles.

i seriously hope dc doesnt use their cosmics/abstracts like marvel. thats what gives them the charm. i like more of a mysterious side to them. unlike eternity who pops up pr the watchers. they kinda lose their majestry. the endless are used just right. every now and then.

as for gods and goddesses. brian az will use them a bit more in his ww run.

grant morrison will use the new gods in multiversity.

in terms of cosmics on the dcnu earth, captain atom will be one of the most powerful beings. as well as firestorm and animal mans daughter.

swamp thing will be up there as well.

Darkseid will stop being jobbed.

I hope.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
i seriously hope dc doesnt use their cosmics/abstracts like marvel. thats what gives them the charm. i like more of a mysterious side to them. unlike eternity who pops up pr the watchers. they kinda lose their majestry. the endless are used just right. every now and then.
Agreed, 100%

Originally posted by Prep-Man
grant morrison will use the new gods in multiversity.

But what can we expect? Will it be more like PC Darkseid, jobbing stair-tripping Darkseid, FC reality crashing abstract Darkseid? Will Darkseid be himself, or avatars? Should Darkseid be himself, or avatars?

What about the relatively recently introduced concept of New Gods being giants and mother boxes resizing? Stay or go?

grant likes high concepts, but i think he will give them a new take on the new gods. rumor has it that there will be a new gods series sometime next year. possibly as one of the multiverse titles next to jsa and earth 2.

i forgot, but darkseid is also the villain in the 1st jla arc.

cogito, did you ever see that massive heiarrchy list a poster did a while ago? if not, i can see if i can find it when i get home. just say the word.

Mr.Master's list?

No, it was done by a poster named Elrahprime or something. He was having a battle between another poster who were seeing which company had more cosmic beings/gods. Here is the list.

1. It's not even half way done (as stated by Elrah).
2. It doesn't include the cosmics from the past few years, but it's still a good list.

1) Beings/Forces who are beyond any creation (Beings that even Hypertime does apply to them)
The Presence/The Overseers

The Source/Carnivore with Presence's power/Gyges and Garamas/Ultimate Light/Ultimate Darkness (Ultimate Darkness and Ultimate Light are the balance of the Presence)/The Voice/The Unnameable One

The Decreator/Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael/Elaine with Michael's power and Demiurgic Energy/The Adjudicator/Spectre/Eclipso (Wrath of God)

Archangel Gabriel, Uriel, Raphael, Michael (Chaos Bringer), Saraquel, Raguel

2) Hypertime abstract Beings/Forces (beings that could affect the whole Hypertimeline)
Hyperman (God of Hypertime Jonathan Kent)

World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite (May not be the Central Hypertimeline or 'in-continuity' Mxyzptlk or Bat-Mite but still existed from a different hypertimeline)

3) Multiversal abstract beings/forces (beings that could affect the Multiverse)
Una, the Worm of Heaven and Hell/Ea/Mallo Keeper of the Cosmic Balance/The Sword of Destiny/The Word/The Void/Demiurgic Energy/The Witching Hour /Anti-Monitor (full version)/Entropy or Krona at full potential/The Great Light (no relations to the Ultimate Darkness or Ultimate Light)/The Darkness (could be the Anti-Monitor's shadow servants merged as one. But that's debatable)/Godwave/The Ultimator or 10th dimensional beings/The Abyss

4) Universal abstract beings/fundamental forces who embody a universe (Beings that could affect a single universe)
Kismet or Eternity (same being , but the name Pre-Crisis Superwoman called her universe in Superman Family Arc)/Death/Infinity (The Timestream)/Oblivion (Nothingness)/Angor/Entropy (End of Time after everything dies)/Maltusian Gods/The Moraiei/Three Witches/Other forms the Witching Hour manifest itself throughout the universe/Destiny/Dream I/Dream II/Darksome/Yk'Kphat/the Antechamber of Souls/The Great Tree/The Abyss (Pre-Boot Dial H For Hero Villain)/5th dimensional imp king or queen (Queen Gzntplzk or King Brpxz)/Omega Attractor/Epoch with Omega Attractor/The Oracle Entity/Maaldor/Ningal/The Aleph/Order/Chaos/Willow and her husband as one (one with the universe)/OA/Quantum Field/Speed Force/Parallax Entity/Azarath/Astro-Force/Omega Effect/Alpha Energy/Zero Hour Parallax (full power)/Ion/Sunbust energy/The Shadowlands/Joker with Maaldor Power/Mr. Mxyzptlk/Bat-Mite/Lkz/Ykz/The Mxy Twins (Mxyzptlk split into 2)/A typical 5th dimensional imp (Zrffians, Thunderbolts, and Mite-Imps) (average showing)/Emperor Joker/Cosmic Lotus/Nebula Man

The Concentrator/The Primal Atom/The Sun-Stone/Genesis Box/Warlogog/Warlogog wielder/Damage (Big Bang)/Anti-Matter Cannon/The Master Blaster

5) Abstract Concepts/physical body and manifestations of the Presence
Destruction/The Decay ancient force/Anomaly (also known as Fires of Creation itself)/Desire/Despair/Dellirium/The Union/Dark Lords of the Ultra-Realm (War, Chaos, Madness, Hate, Death, Greed and Rage), Light Lords of the Ultra-Realm (Peace, Grace, Enlightenment, Love, Order, Life and Bliss)/Rama Kushna/Meshta/Wally the God Boy/Godhead

6) Physical body and manifestations of abstract concepts
Black Racer/Black Flash/Nekron I/The Ecrus/Anti-Life Entity/Anyone wielding the ALE/Eon (full power)/Decay II/Tiamat

7) Godlike Metahumans/1st class Metaphysicals, Semi-Abstract, God-Like beings, race, Demons, Angels/Metaphysicals that could affect the universe
Hamilton Benedict/Gemini Entity/Alexander Luthor/Gemworld Dimension (currently Amethyst's spirit)/Jonathan Kent/Progenitor (Element Lad reaching his full potential and becoming God of a galaxy)/Progenitor and Omnipagues (merged as one being)/

The Promethian Giants/The Quantum Mechanics/The Anti-Matter Man (Pre-Boot)

Ramiel/Duma/Sandalphon/Archangel Amendaniel/Lord of Order (Shatru, St'ann, Terataya, Ynar, J'akk, Nabu the Wise, Patagones, Amethyst)/Lord of Chaos (Child, Gorrum, Hytuurnus, m'Shulla, Shivering Jemmy, The Weaver, T'Charr,The Shallow Brigade and the Laughing Dancers,The five original Lords of Chaos,Typhon, Vandaemon, Zanadu)/The Unity/Shattered God/SHAZAM's Elder Gods (Marzosh, Arel, Ribalvei, Voldar, Elbiam, Lumium)/S'ivaa The Destroyer/The Shadow Elements race/The Three Demons - Rath, Ghast, Abnegazar/Clockwerx/Trigon (in his dimension)/Krona/Bedlam/Dominus/Jakeem Thunder/Johnny Thunder/30th Century or present Mordru/The Great Darkness Saga Darkseid/Doctor Manhattan/Satan/Spear of Destiny/Azmodus (like the Spectre varies)/Shaitan/Shathan/Ultimate Man (fully evolved)/Ganthet possessed by Parallax/Superman Prime/Wonder Woman channeling the Godwave/Starbreaker/Yuga Khan/Imperiex/Brainiac 13/Fenris the Devourer/Omniphagues/Overmaster/Epoch/Vyronis/Preacherverse God/King of Tears/The Devil/Corinthian/The First of the Fallen/Saint of Killer/Angel of Death/Time Trapper I (Rokk Krinn)/Time Trapper II (Lori Morning?)/Glorith/Infinite Man/Timeless Ones/The Time Beast/Kulak/Eclipso (depowered and became Heart of Darkness)/Abraxis/Dr. Destiny/The Agents/Dark Angel/Zatanna and Adam (Godhead)/Agent If and the Realtor/The Carnivore (pre-God)/Cykroth/The Evil One/Maggedon/Alien Ator of the Timeless Place/Primordial Old Gods of Chaos/The Lords of Light/Nether-World Gods/Satan (Phantom Stranger issue pre-boot)/Willie Wisher/Father Time/Captain Skull/Cocoon of the Undying Ones

8) 1st Class Metahumans, supernatural, and aliens/2nd class Metaphysicals,Semi-Abstract, and God-Like beings/race/Demons/Angels
The Unimaginable/Unimaginable's race/Candlemaker/Egregores/TDHD MadGod of Sector 3600/Millinneum Giants/Cosmic Gamblers/OWner of the Earth/The A/Rift/Neron/The Second of the Fallen/The Third of the Fallen/The Endless One/Old Gods- Arzaz, Baaldur, Lokee, The Nameless One, Sirius, Wotan/A typical 5th dimensional imp (varies) (low showings)/The I/Luck Lords/X'Hal/Agamemno/The Aurakles/The One/The Fiend with Five Faces/Erishad's baby/Outer Gods (Shub-Niggurath, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep)/Elder Gods and the Old Ones (Cthulhu,M'Nagalah, k'zum'uggarth, Daemoniacus, Kolkothak, Koth-Shugoth, The Undying Ones and the N'Garai)/Netherworld Creatures/Andromeda and M'onel given powers by the Anomaly/The ID/The Miracle Machine/Parallax (Post Zero Hour)/Jericho (vessel of Azarath)/Zauriel (angel form)/Asmodel/Pax Dei host/Thrones/Saraphim/other angel host that Gabriel or Sandalphon are in charge of/Earth-Born Angels- Supergirl (angelic powers), Comet, and Blithe (if they actually use their powers), Twilight with Supergirl's Earth Born Angel Power (still has it I believe)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Light Entity/Leviathan (Phantom Stranger pre-boot)/Asmodeus/Oblivion II/Secret (full potential)

Sun Eater/Mr. Nebula/Cannibal Planet/Aquarius/Other Living Stars/Council of the Living Stars/Solaris/Morbiac the Zombie Star/The Vampire Sun/Mogo/Empire of Tears/Wonderworld inhabitors- Adam One, The Mote, and other Wonderworlders/Manhunter of Mars/Parliaments of Planets/Earth Elemental Swamp Thing/The Ancient Ones/Maya/Gaea

Monitor/Anti-Monitor (before he absorbed the multiverse)/Scarabus

9) Skyfather levels
Highfather Izaya/Darkseid/Takion/Stayne/a typical Guardians of the Univese/Ganthet/Phantom Stranger/Zeus/Odin or any skyfathers/SHAZAM wizard/The Controllers/The Zamarons/Guardians Council/Qwardians (creator of the Anti-Green Lantern Corps)/Ares/Harmonia/Deimos/Eris/Phobos/Thunderhead/Helia/Odin/Osiris/Mother Herrae and other Primitives/Osirect/Anubis/Hades/Cronus/Harrier/Disdain/Titan/Slaughter/Arch/Oblivion/other skyfathers and death gods/Superman 1 million/Superman Dynasty/Koth/The Seven/Wonder Woman (Goddess)/Animal Avatars Gods (Hawkgod, Snakegods, Beargods, Bullgods, etc.)/Rao and other Kryptonian gods/Gog/Evil Avatar Raven/Trigon's Daughter Raven/Lord Satanis/Trigon (on Earth)/Infernal One/The Redeemer/Mister Miracle (ruling New Genesis)/Stone Giant's race/Parliament of Flames/Parliament of Stones/Parliament of Waves/Parliament of Trees/Parliament of Vibes/Blaze/Lord Satanus/The Three Faces of Evil- Terror, Sin, and Wickedness/Validus (Pre-Boot)/The Powerstone or anyone wielding the Powerstone/Metron/Red Jack/Rhea Jones (reaching her full potential before killing Red Jack)/Shadowy Mr. Evans/Saint of Killer/Dark Gods/Lois Lane (Goddess of Integrity)/Dreamslayer/Spirit King/Ultimate Man/X'ult/Evolvo harnessing the space and time Anomaly/Willow/Willow's chils/Snapper Carr (genetic potential)/Human race (genetic potential)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Ancient Ones/Xenon/Disciple/H'ronmeer/C'eridyall/The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse - Death, War, Faminine, and Plague (manifestations of The Adjudator's will)

10) Time-travelers/2nd class metahumans, supernatural, and aliens
Extant/Waverider and Linear Man/Hourman III (without the worlogog)/Gabriel Walker/Doomsday with GL Ring/Decay III/Brimstone/The Annihilator/Eon (depowered)/Godfrey Gaius (true form)/Black Zero/Gayle Marsh (Psi)/Lex Luthor (portion of Darkseid's power)/Penguin (portion of Darkseid's power)/Joker (portion of Darkseid's power)/Brainiac (potion of Darkseid's power)/Agogg/Pre-Crisis Superman/Pre-Crisis Supergirl/Pre-Crisis Kryptonians/Pre-Crisis Daxamites/Mon-El/Pre-Crisis Superboy/Pre-Crisis Wonderwoman/Pre-Crisis Andromeda/Bloodthirst (could be higher, not much is known about him except that he could change his appearance and he beat the crap out of Superman)/Monarch/Dev-Em/OWAW Doomsday/Doomsday War Doomsday/Goldstar/Triumph given powers by Lkz/Pre-Crisis Maxima/OWAW Superman (merged with Strange Visitor)/Pre-Crisis Ultraboy/Superwoman (Kristen Wells)/Hunter and Prey Doomsday/Element Lad/Element Man/Starfinger/Star Boy/Kid Quantum II/Kid Pyscho/Graviton Man/Gravity Lord (both could be higher)/Superboy Robot (pre-crisis)/Atmos/Brother Blood/Dr. Light (full potential, enraged, and very crazy)/Dr. Light II/Superboy of the 843rd Century/Superboy 1 million

11) Herald-Class Level/3rd class angels, metahuman, supernautrals, and demons/Hulk-Level
Helspont/Lord Defile/Saviour/Regis and Blue Aliens/Preacherverse Devil/Dark Lantern/Dark Flash/Fernus/Burning Martians/Vartox/Amazo/The OMAC Androids/BION/Composite Superman/Garok/Dr. Fate/Dr. Fate II/Dr. Fate III/Dr. Fate IV/Tim Hunter/Tim Hunter II (Tim Hunter's evil counterpart from another universe)/Anti-Fate (high portrayal in the Fates and TM)/Kestrel I/Krestrel II/Composite Man/Deadman (varies)/Green Lantern Priest/Creator-2/Zatanna/Jennifer Morgan/Janissary with Book of Eternity/Despero/Zoom 2/Shaggy Man/The General/The Elementals (Swamp Thing, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Naiad)/Orion (highest showing)/Brainiac 2.5/Doomsday Rex/Sun-dipped Superman

Martian Manhunter/Malefic/Hyperclan- A-Mortal, Armek, Fluxus, Primad, Protex, Tronix, Zenturion and Zum/Green, Pale, Red and White Martians (at their best)/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (highest showing)/Wally West (highest showing or using Speed Force)/Sinestro/Effigy/Nero/Major Force/Captain Atom (highest showing)/Firestorm I and Firestorm II (highest showing)/Celeste Rockfish/Cobalt Blue/Kilg%re/Obsidian/Dr. Polaris

Superman/Mr. Majestic (could be ranked higher)/M'onel/The Martians (average to high)/Kryptonians/Daxamites/Andromeda/Captain Marvel/Lightray/Black Adam/Eradicator/Martian Mahunter/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (average)/Ultraman/Orion (average showing)/Captain Atom (average showing)/Doomsday/Firestorm I/Firestorm II (average to high)/Breach/Max Faraday/The Void/Providence/Manchester Black/Power Ring/Massacre/High-Tech/Anti-Green Lanterns/Malefic/Green Martians/Rhea Jones/Preus/Cyborg Superman/Mongul/Zatanna (average showing)/Auron/Radiant/Despero/Thor/Captain Comet/Starboy/Starman I/Starman II/Starman III/Starman IV/Starman V/Starman VI/Starman VII/Starman VIII/Starman 1,000,000/Lord Malvolio/Jade/Evil Star/General Zod/Ignition/Kancer/Warrior/Lex Luthor (Armor)/Manchester Black/Triumph/Strata/The Crusade/The Union/Golgoth/Superman Robots/Superman Androids/Brainiac/Pulsar Stargrave/Ultivac/Manhunters/Darkstars/Arion/Dr. Occult/Echantress/Steel (Aegis Entropy Armor)/Ultraboy/Warlord of Ys/Anti-Matter Man/Antithesis/Brainwave II/Ferro Lad/Cosmic Boy (pre-Crisis)/Gaius (in coma)/Lobo/Etrigan

Wonder Woman/Circe/Maxima (high showing)/Samaritan/Apollo/Icon/The Martians (low showings)/the Green Lanterns (average to low showings)/Captain Atom (average to low showings)/Maul/Solomon Grundy/Uncle Sam/Death Rite (Draaga)/Hercules/Mantis/Ultra Boy/Captain Marvel Jr./Mary Marvel (high showing on the Marvel sidekicks)/Geoforce (high showing)/Faora/Arclight/Son of Vulcan/Bizarro/Thor/Wanjina/Red Tornado/
Body Defenses of the Owner of the Earth/Kalibak/Grayven/Superwoman/Zealot/Validus (Post Zero-Hour)/Steve Dayton/Solaar/The Olympian/Ferro/Cosmic Boy (post-Crisis)/Scanner/White Drawf/Drone/4D/The Key/Imperiex Probes/Heralds of the Owner of the Earth/Terraformer of the Owner of the Earth /Jenny Quantum

Adam Strange/Animal Avatars (Hawkman,Hawkwoman,Lord Viper, avatars of Bears, Barracudas, Snakes, etc.)

12) Lower Class metahumans
Powergirl (high showing)/Hippolyta/Barda/OMAC (Buddle Blank)/Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr. (standard)/Maxima/Fury II/Loose Cannon/Blockbuster I/Blockbuster II/Touch 'n Go/Jack-o-Lantern

Flash II (high showing)/Flash III(post terminal velocity)

Power Girl (standard to low showings)/Mary Marvel/Cap Marvel Junior (standard to low showing on the Marvel)/Donna Troy/Artemis & Hyppolita (highest showings)/Superboy (high showings)/Aquaman (with full on TP and magic hand)

Flash I/Flash II (standard)/Flash III (pre terminal velocity)/Dr. Zoom/Impulse/Johnny Quick/Captain Speed/Kid Flash (former Impulse)/Reverse Flash/Savitar/Speed Demon/Max Mercury/Johnny Quick/Red and Blue Trinity/Christina Alexandrova/Jesse Quick/Barry West/Kid Flash 2/Impulse/23rd Century Flash/Sela Allen/John Fox/speed Metal/Blaine Allen/Jace Allen/Tornado Twins/Hyperguard/Inertia/XS/Flash Kryad/JOhn Fox/Impulse II/Superboy (standard)/Wonder Girl/Aquaman (hook/mechanical hand + full on TP)/Steel/Natasha Irons/Metamorpho/Starman(low showing)/Thunder/Grace/Kid Impala

Atom Smasher/Colossal Boy/Hourman I and II/Geoforce (standard)/Black Lightning/Static/Black Lightning/Jenny Sparks/Vera Black/Behemoth/Scirocco/Prometheus (Hybrid)/Pulse-8/666

Sand/Clayface/Alloy

Aquaman (not full on TP)/Jay Garrick (standard)/Rival/Stargirl/Hawkman/Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (standard)/Plastic Man

Wally West (Return of Barry Allen)

Silver Age Aquaman/Atom I/Atom II/Apparition/Aqualad/Aquagirl/Aruna/Gorgon/Harpi/Pteradon/Black Nebula/Elongated Man/Flow/Tasmanian Devil

14) 1st clas humans
Overbat (Mitefall)/Croc/Batman's Dark Knight Armor/Vixen/Ragman

15) 2nd class humans
Batman (both Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis)/Bane/Richard Dragon/Bronze Tiger/Blackwing/Warmaker One/Mr. Terrific/Deathstroke/Deadshot/The Joker/Two Face/Nightwing/Robin/Red Hood/The Husk/Black Mask/Green Arrow/Arsenal/Connor Hawke/Batgirl/Catwoman/Lady Shiva/The Squire/The Knight (Ultramarine)/Fleur-De-Lis/Goraiko

Tbf, I'd say it's probably in DC's best interest to not bother explaining it all, as that's what has lead to like, all 56,000 contradicting explanations as to how creation began, as well as the confusion over the pseudo continuity of Vertigo books like Sandman and Lucifer.

Essentially, they should just not bother going into it in great detail, as the majority of new readers probably do not want to know about the origins of the universe, and would rather just read good comics about the actual characters, and older readers can just pick their favourite and run with it, as really, it doesn't affect anything at this point.

It's an interesting list, and I'm sure many of those characters will never be shown or mentioned again.

Personally, I'm hoping the New Gods finally get some respect and at least return to PC levels

Well we'll find out in JLA soon enough.

Originally posted by Cogito
Personally, I'm hoping the New Gods finally get some respect and at least return to PC levels The New Gods have been getting respect since Final Crisis. Darkseid's feats are a good example of that.

Anyway, DC should keep their abstract-use to a minimum like they have been. If they start including them in every other story like Marvel seems to, the power-neutering is inevitable. Look at Eternity for christ sake. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
The New Gods have been getting respect since Final Crisis. Darkseid's feats are a good example of that.

Anyway, DC should keep their abstract-use to a minimum like they have been. If they start including them in every other story like Marvel seems to, the power-neutering is inevitable. Look at Eternity for christ sake. srsly

DC has been pumping out a lot of cosmic stories for the past few years. Probably just as much as Marvel. I mean look at Spectre, Krona, and Darkseid (besides FC). They all have lost some respect.

I think the more powerful a character gets, the harder it is to do good storytelling. DC (via Vertigo, especially), has done a superb job storytelling with high abstracts (Lucifer, Sandman, etc). I hope they can work some more magic in the near future.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
DC has been pumping out a lot of cosmic stories for the past few years. Probably just as much as Marvel. I wouldn't go that far.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I mean look at Spectre, Krona, and Darkseid (besides FC). They all have lost some respect. -Spectre (Crispus) varies from writer-to-writer. During Countdown to Mystery, and Revelations he seemed to be written as his true abstract-self... But since then, different writers have watered him down quite a bit.
-Krona was only written as an abstract one time (Trinity), and in that story, he was written very well.
-Darkseid is not an abstract. His feats in FC, however, were very close to that 'level' of power.

What are the lists of stories Abstracts have been appearing in? Let's just say last year or so.

BTW, this is both cosmics and abstracts. DC has just as many of those floating around.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
DC has just as many of those floating around. Never said otherwise. I just think that in general, DC tends to use their abstracts through better suited mediums/environments, then Marvel does. Case in point: The Endless.