Shuma- Gorath vs Mordru

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the Darkone
Shuma-Gorath





vs.




Mordru ( powerful form)




1 battle takes place in SG realm
2. battle takes place in nertual universe, but SG keep his power level

Uriel005
Originally posted by the Darkone
Shuma-Gorath





vs.




Mordru ( powerful form)




1 battle takes place in SG realm
2. battle takes place in nertual universe, but SG keep his power level Don't know. Leaning towards Mordru as there is no reason why he couldn't copy stranges act/absorb Shuma-entirely. Additionally there is the possibility he could outright beat Shuma as I'd place him a fair bit above Sise

the Darkone
Originally posted by Uriel005
Don't know. Leaning towards Mordru as there is no reason why he couldn't copy stranges act/absorb Shuma-entirely. Additionally there is the possibility he could outright beat Shuma as I'd place him a fair bit above Sise

You would put Mordru above Sisi-neg, I dont know about that! Sis was at the time pretty damn close to the top of the food chain below LT and powerful as hell, they are pretty much alike in some degrees.

CortSether
WTH? Mordru have never been close to Sise-Neg in power.

And lol at people acting like fusing with Shuma-Gorath is feasible for just any ol' person who happens to know magic.

zopzop
Mordru, at least he's fought quality opponents unlike Gorath.

Uriel005
Originally posted by CortSether
WTH? Mordru have never been close to Sise-Neg in power.

And lol at people acting like fusing with Shuma-Gorath is feasible for just any ol' person who happens to know magic. .... Mordru Any old person ..... right and Nabu and Shazam aren't anywhere near comparable to Sise-neg. considering mordru has overpowered Shazam who while weakened was nearly able to blast raging Spectre from DOV to smithereens... right sorry for thinking that Sise-neg wasn't leagues above Mordru.

CortSether
Originally posted by Uriel005
.... Mordru Any old person ..... right and Nabu and Shazam aren't anywhere near comparable to Sise-neg. considering mordru has overpowered Shazam who while weakened was nearly able to blast raging Spectre from DOV to smithereens... right sorry for thinking that Sise-neg wasn't leagues above Mordru.

Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated all of Marvel, that's leagues above anything that Nabu, Shazam or Mordru could do. They're not even comparable.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated all of Marvel, that's leagues above anything that Nabu, Shazam or Mordru could do. They're not even comparable.

That's also leagues above anything Gorath has done, so what's the point. Neg didn't want to waste precious energy on a fight with Gorath (who at the time was picking on primitive ape men laughing ) so he banished him. Big whoop. roll eyes (sarcastic)

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
That's also leagues above anything Gorath has done, so what's the point. Neg didn't want to waste precious energy on a fight with Gorath (who at the time was picking on primitive ape men laughing ) so he banished him. Big whoop. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Who the hell was arguing this point to begin with? Way to make an argument that doesn't exist.

Uriel said he puts Mordru above Sise-Neg, which is what I was disputing.

And demons like to feed on things. Why Shuma devouring human ancestors is a point you like to continually make is very odd, to say the least.

Prep-Man
mordru absorbed most of infinite man, who could destroy all creation in a matter of moments. good fight though.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Prep-Man
mordru absorbed most of infinite man, who could destroy all creation in a matter of moments. good fight though. half actually forget who he shared it with though.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Uriel005
half actually forget who he shared it with though.

Yeah, you're correct, however it's pretty damn impressive when he and Glorith absorbed that power. Vril stated he could have destroyed the entire DCU in about 5.8 seconds.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yeah, you're correct, however it's pretty damn impressive when he and Glorith absorbed that power. Vril stated he could have destroyed the entire DCU in about 5.8 seconds. Yeah and then there was the whole lets absorb the magic of the universe shindig.

Sundipped
Originally posted by CortSether
Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated all of Marvel, that's leagues above anything that Nabu, Shazam or Mordru could do. They're not even comparable.

Yeah Strange and Mordo got to see time wind back to the dawn of creation in reverse ending with the universe made in his image then he decided to undo what just happened and recreate it as it was. Pretty decent feat.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5271/siseneg11.th.jpg http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3549/siseneg12.th.jpg

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
That's also leagues above anything Gorath has done, so what's the point. Neg didn't want to waste precious energy on a fight with Gorath (who at the time was picking on primitive ape men laughing ) so he banished him. Big whoop. roll eyes (sarcastic)

He banished him but it was kind of a sneak attack. He didn't attempt nor did he want to attempt facing Shuma head on which says alot.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Sundipped
Yeah Strange and Mordo got to see time wind back to the dawn of creation in reverse ending with the universe made in his image then he decided to undo what just happened and recreate it as it was. Pretty decent feat.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5271/siseneg11.th.jpg http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3549/siseneg12.th.jpg Not saying that it isn't impressive by any means. It's just a matter of where their strengths lie in a rock paper scissors contest and Mordru has a one up on most magic/energy users through his ridiculous absorb capabilities and raw power to at the least toe to toe with the very best under his own power. Also bricks generally don't have much success with him.

Sundipped
^
Agreed. I believe what it will come down to is who's absorption powers prevail first. Like I said Sise-Neg (a guy capable of the above feat) had to secretly banish him for a fear of being leeched on so....theres no telling who would weaken first.

CortSether
Originally posted by Sundipped
^
Agreed. I believe what it will come down to is who's absorption powers prevail first. Like I said Sise-Neg (a guy capable of the above feat) had to secretly banish him for a fear of being leeched on so....theres no telling who would weaken first.

But that was before Sise-Neg was at the end of his journey.

But even at that point when Sise-Neg had encountered Shuma, I still say he'd wipe the floor with Mordru. He had absorbed so much power that Strange couldn't use any spells whatsoever, including the ones from other magical deities.

And Sise-Neg is a nexus being. Mordru is not. Big advantage for Sise-Neg there.

Sundipped
Originally posted by CortSether
But that was before Sise-Neg was at the end of his journey.

But even at that point when Sise-Neg had encountered Shuma, I still say he'd wipe the floor with Mordru. He had absorbed so much power that Strange couldn't use any spells whatsoever, including the ones from other magical deities.

And Sise-Neg is a nexus being. Mordru is not. Big advantage for Sise-Neg there.

You do have a point. His whole purpose for the journey was to absorb and control as much mystical energy as possible. By the time he travelled back to the time of ape like beings he had enough to go ahead and banish Shuma.

Galan007
The only reason Sise didn't kill Shuma outright is because it would have cost him "some" of his carefully accumulated power- power that he needed in order to reach the crescendo of his plan (ie. the destruction/recreation of the entire Marvel continuum.)

So instead, Sise casually drew "much" of Shuma's power away, subsequently putting him to sleep:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8317/marvelpremiere1416.th.jpg


Point being: Sise was far and away superior to Shuma.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
The only reason Sise didn't kill Shuma outright is because it would have cost him "some" of his carefully accumulated power- power that he needed in order to reach the crescendo of his plan (ie. the destruction/recreation of the entire Marvel continuum.)

So instead, Sise casually drew "much" of Shuma's power away, subsequently putting him to sleep:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8317/marvelpremiere1416.th.jpg


Point being: Sise was far and away superior to Shuma.

Nobody's questioning that. Although his statement "I cannot attempt to destroy it because it would take time" lets you know it's not going to be a walk in the park.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
Nobody's questioning that. Although his statement "I cannot attempt to destroy it because it would take time" lets you know it's not going to be a walk in the park. The statement: "that would take time" is very ambiguous. It could mean several seconds, several minutes, several hours, etc.

However, the following line: "and in that time it would leech SOME of my carefully accumulated energy from me." Let's us know the Sise was capable of killing Shuma outright, with relatively minimal power expenditure -- so a battle between them isn't likely to have lasted THAT long.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
The statement: "that would take time" is very ambiguous. It could mean several seconds, several minutes, several hours, etc.

However, the following line: "and in that time it would leech SOME of my carefully accumulated energy from me." Let's us know the Sise was capable of killing Shuma outright, with relatively minimal power expenditure -- so a battle between them isn't likely to have lasted THAT long.

If he was indeed talking about a short time span then I see no reason for Sise not to go ahead and destroy him outright. Why just banish him when you can ultimately do away with the problem?

"This entity, I sense, absorbs power even as I do". Sise knows this will be a time consuming/draining/back and forth battle. I agree it's Sise>>Shuma but it's not going to be a stomp.

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
The statement: "that would take time" is very ambiguous. It could mean several seconds, several minutes, several hours, etc.

However, the following line: "and in that time it would leech SOME of my carefully accumulated energy from me." Let's us know the Sise was capable of killing Shuma outright, with relatively minimal power expenditure -- so a battle between them isn't likely to have lasted THAT long.

I don't think Sise-Neg would have been worried about his energy being taken away by Shuma if it was going to be easy as pie. If he destroyed Shuma he could always just absorb the energy afterwards coming out of Shuma after its destruction. That's why I'm of the opinion that it would have been a taxing battle. Sise-Neg does say that he doesn't want to attempt to confront Shuma. That shows a degree of uncertainty/cautiousness. Whereas he had just previously said that he could kill Mordo and Strange with the slightest thought.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
I agree it's Sise>>Shuma but it's not going to be a stomp. Except it WAS a stomp. srsly

Originally posted by CortSether
I don't think Sise-Neg would have been worried about his energy being taken away by Shuma if it was going to be easy as pie. "Some" of his energy, you mean. Taken into the context of that scene, some =/= a lot.

Originally posted by CortSether
If he destroyed Shuma he could always just absorb the energy afterwards coming out of Shuma after its destruction.

That's why I'm of the opinion that it would have been a taxing battle. Sise-Neg does say that he doesn't want to attempt to confront Shuma. That shows a degree of uncertainty/cautiousness. Eh, what? Sise said he could kill Shuma -- but it'd take some of his power to do so- and he needed every last bit of power he could muster to achieve his final goal (as I said above.) That's why he opted to draw away "MUCH" of Shuma's own power, subsequently forcing him to sleep for a millenia.

Also, your reabsorption opinion makes no sense to me. If Sise would have been able to reabsorb said power after killing Shuma, it wouldn't matter whether it took him a short time, or a long time to do so.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
Except it WAS a stomp. srsly

Come on now Galan. glare

He had to secretly depower him to a certain extent then transport him before Shuma realized what had happened. In a sense, he basically dodged him.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sundipped
Come on now Galan. glare

He had to secretly depower him to a certain extent then transport him before Shuma realized what had happened. In a sense, he basically dodged him. Shuma was still unable to defend in any way/shape/form. Just saying...

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Except it WAS a stomp. srsly

Only b/c Shuma had no idea that Sise-Neg was there. It wasn't a battle in any sense.



Sise-Neg would have no way of knowing how much power would be taken away from him had Shuma actually attacked him. "Some" is an estimation, because at the very least "some" of his energy would be used in a confrontation, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have taken effort out of Sise to put Shuma down. He does say clearly that it would take time.



Nowhere in Sise's comments does he confirm that he could definitively kill Shuma. He merely states that he cannot attempt to destroy him because Shuma's energy absorption ability would take time for him to overcome and leech some of his energy. If Sise-Neg felt that he would have stomped Shuma then there would be no need to note his energy absorption ability. And Sise-Neg has been able to take the magical energy away from pretty much everyone casually. He even did so to Merlyn. But Sise's words clearly show he wouldn't be able to casually deal with Shuma if he was detected.

And also notice how Sise-Neg uses his some of his magic to create a paradise for the two remaining primates after disposing of Shuma. Why wasn't he worried about his precious energy being used then?



Which only supports the opinion that Sise-Neg wasn't 100% certain that he could defeat Shuma in a confrontation. If he was certain of being able to kill Shuma head on then worrying about energy wouldn't be a problem because he could simply absorb back that energy he used. Energy doesn't disappear it can only be converted.

Prep-Man
It would be pretty interesting if Mordru can absorb Shuma's power and vice versa. Mordru is immortal, so Shuma won't be able to kill him

CortSether
Originally posted by Prep-Man
It would be pretty interesting if Mordru can absorb Shuma's power and vice versa. Mordru is immortal, so Shuma won't be able to kill him

Same goes for Shuma. Also, Strange only merged with Shuma b/c Shuma planned for that to happen should he be defeated. Strange didn't just straight up force the merging with him, unlike how he dealt with Arioch previously.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
Only b/c Shuma had no idea that Sise-Neg was there. It wasn't a battle in any sense.



Sise-Neg would have no way of knowing how much power would be taken away from him had Shuma actually attacked him. "Some" is an estimation, because at the very least "some" of his energy would be used in a confrontation, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have taken effort out of Sise to put Shuma down. He does say clearly that it would take time.

Nowhere in Sise's comments does he confirm that he could definitively kill Shuma. He merely states that he cannot attempt to destroy him because Shuma's energy absorption ability would take time for him to overcome and leech some of his energy. If Sise-Neg felt that he would have stomped Shuma then there would be no need to note his energy absorption ability. And Sise-Neg has been able to take the magical energy away from pretty much everyone casually. He even did so to Merlyn. But Sise's words clearly show he wouldn't be able to casually deal with Shuma if he was detected.

And also notice how Sise-Neg uses his some of his magic to create a paradise for the two remaining primates after disposing of Shuma. Why wasn't he worried about his precious energy being used then?

Which only supports the opinion that Sise-Neg wasn't 100% certain that he could defeat Shuma in a confrontation. If he was certain of being able to kill Shuma head on then worrying about energy wouldn't be a problem because he could simply absorb back that energy he used. Energy doesn't disappear it can only be converted. facepalm

You fellas really like Shuma, eh? Sise -the same guy who went only to destroy/recreate all of Marvel- gesturely takes "MOST" of Shuma's power away, yet his ability to definitively kill the slug is in question..?

lol, w/e.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
facepalm

You fellas really like Shuma, eh?

There has NEVER been a character that's been hyped up like Shuma has and he's accomplished NOTHING. Shuma-Gorath the character hyperbole built. sick

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
Shuma was still unable to defend in any way/shape/form. Just saying...

I could break into your house and kill you with a AK-47 before you realized I was there too. laughing

Doesn't mean I would trump you under even circumstances tho.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
There has NEVER been a character that's been hyped up like Shuma has and he's accomplished NOTHING. Shuma-Gorath the character hyperbole built. sick I'm inclined to agree, actually.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I could break into your house and kill you with a AK-47 before you realized I was there too. laughing

Doesn't mean I would trump you under even circumstances tho. Except Shuma popped up right in front of Sise. Just saying...

WHITEBEARD
Shuma Gorath

Sundipped
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm inclined to agree, actually.

Except Shuma popped up right in front of Sise. Just saying...

Sneaky son of a ***** aint he? cool

Galan007
laughing out loud

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
facepalm

You fellas really like Shuma, eh? Sise -the same guy who went only to destroy/recreate all of Marvel- gesturely takes "MOST" of Shuma's power away, yet his ability to definitively kill the slug is in question..?

lol, w/e.

At the end of his journey, when he merged with the Big Bang that wouldn't be in question at all - Sise would stomp heavily. At the time of his encounter with Shuma-Gorath, yes how the conflict would have gone down can be speculated based on Sise-Neg's comments.

Why is taking most of Shuma's energy away indicative of anything? Shuma was minding its own biz having a snack. Based on Sise-Neg's statement that Shuma has the same nature of energy absorption powers as him, it wouldn't be far out to say that had the roles been reversed and Shuma-Gorath encountered Sise-Neg while he was minding his business and eating a PB & J sandwich, that Shuma-Gorath could have absorbed much of Sise's energy away and banished him to a far off place.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Why is taking most of Shuma's energy away indicative of anything? Shuma was minding its own biz having a snack.

Snack? He had his hands full conquering a planet (Earth) of...............APE MEN. Freaking Ape Men!
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathsiseneg.jpg

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
Snack? He had his hands full conquering a planet (Earth) of...............APE MEN. Freaking Ape Men!
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathsiseneg.jpg

That's a endless supply of food tho. Let em reproduce first then eat. stick out tongue

zopzop
Originally posted by Sundipped
That's a endless supply of food tho. Let em reproduce first then eat. stick out tongue

LOL laughing

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
At the end of his journey, when he merged with the Big Bang that wouldn't be in question at all Good. Then it's worth mentioning that by the time Sise confronted Shuma, he was at full power. Hence his statement to Strange/Mordo at the bottom of the scan I posted earlier...

"Follow me now, for the FINAL time--and we shall seek my journey's END!":

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/8317/marvelpremiere1416.th.jpg

Then on the very next pages we see Sise destroy and recreate all of Marvel:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4853/marvelpremiere1417.th.jpg http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2420/marvelpremiere1418.th.jpg http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7313/marvelpremiere1419.th.jpg

So yeah, Sise was at the height of his power when he confronted Shuma. So by your own accord he would have been able to destroy the slug, without question. thumb up

Originally posted by CortSether
Why is taking most of Shuma's energy away indicative of anything? Sise took away the bulk of Shuma's power with a literal blink of his eyes. The difference in power speaks for itself.

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Good. Then it's worth mentioning that by the time Sise confronted Shuma, he was at full power. Hence his statement to Strange/Mordo at the bottom of the scan I posted earlier...

"Follow me now, for the FINAL time--and we shall seek my journey's END!":


So yeah, Sise was at the height of his power when he confronted Shuma. So by your own accord he would have been able to destroy the slug, without question. thumb up

Sise took away the bulk of Shuma's power with a literal blink of his eyes. The difference in power speaks for itself.

Sise-Neg was not at full power when he confronted Shuma. The cosmos was still intact. You see after Sise-Neg disposes of Shuma that they travel further where they literally see planets and stars implode and everything reverts into nothingness.

Sise-Neg was only at full power when he reached the pre-Big Bang point in the Void.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
Sise-Neg was not at full power when he confronted Shuma. The cosmos was still intact. You see after Sise-Neg disposes of Shuma that they travel further where they literally see planets and stars implode and everything reverts into nothingness.

Sise-Neg was only at full power when he reached the pre-Big Bang point in the Void. Sise absorbed no further power after he confronted Shuma, therefore he was fully powered at that point in time. Location had absolutely nothing to do with Sise's power. Not debatable.

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Sise absorbed no further power after he confronted Shuma, therefore he was fully powered at that point in time. Location had absolutely nothing to do with Sise's power. Not debatable.

It isn't debatable because you're wrong.

You're the only person I've ever seen on a forum post that Sise-Neg was at full power when on Earth with Shuma-Gorath.

He very clearly did absorb more power. Or do you honestly think Sise-Neg would have resorted to putting Shuma-Gorath to sleep if he could have just used a freakin' Big Bang and created the universe in his own image right then and there? I mean if he had the power to make the universe in his own image at that point it would have been much simpler to recreate a universe that doesn't include a Shuma-Gorath.

And he very clearly sucks out Shuma's energy to add to his power, so kinda makes the FP argument of yours nonsensical.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
You're the only person I've ever seen on a forum post that Sise-Neg was at full power when on Earth with Shuma-Gorath.

He very clearly did absorb more power. Very clearly, eh? Okay then, show me some on panel evidence that Sise absorbed energy between confronting Shuma, and recreating the universe.

I'm waiting. smile

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Very clearly, eh? Okay then, show me some on panel evidence that Sise absorbed energy between confronting Shuma, and recreating the universe.

I'm waiting. smile

When he draws Shuma's power away, where do you think it goes? You think he just leaves Shuma's energy floating around? Because Sise-Neg has shown himself to be very conservative and unselfish when absorbing from others, right? I mean it's not like his very excuse for not wanting to combat Shuma was the fear of a loss of energy, right?

I guess if he has an opportunity to gain more power in his goal for recreating the universe he'd rather just leave it there.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
When he draws Shuma's power away, where do you think it goes? You think he just leaves Shuma's energy floating around? Because Sise-Neg has shown himself to be very conservative and unselfish when absorbing from others, right? I mean it's not like his very excuse for not wanting to combat Shuma was the fear of a loss of energy, right?

I guess if he has an opportunity to gain more power in his goal for recreating the universe he'd rather just leave it there.

roll eyes (sarcastic) Heh, you might also note that I said: "show me some on panel evidence that Sise absorbed energy between confronting Shuma, and recreating the universe." And between "confronting" Shuma and recreating the universe, Sise absorbed no further power. Thank you. Additionally, it's lulz-worthy to think that absorbing a portion of Shuma's power would make the difference in whether or not Sise was capable of destroying/recreating existence.

Anyhow, Sise drew away "much" of Shuma's power, placed him in a comatose state, and trapped him in another dimension for millenia... With a blink. The gargantuan difference in power between them is obvious.

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, you might also note that I said: "show me some on panel evidence that Sise absorbed energy between confronting Shuma, and recreating the universe." And between "confronting" Shuma and recreating the universe, Sise absorbed no further power. Thank you. Additionally, it's lulz-worthy to think that absorbing a portion of Shuma's power would make the difference in whether or not Sise was capable of destroying/recreating existence.

Anyhow, Sise drew away "much" of Shuma's power, placed him in a comatose state, and trapped him in another dimension for millenia... With a blink. The gargantuan difference in power between them is obvious.

Now you're just tangling up your argument. In your post with the Marvel Premiere scans you said:

"Good. Then it's worth mentioning that by the time Sise confronted Shuma, he was at full power. Hence his statement to Strange/Mordo at the bottom of the scan I posted earlier...

and

"So yeah, Sise was at the height of his power when he confronted Shuma."

Those statements make it apparent that you meant Sise-Neg already had reached full power before he put Shuma to sleep. Unless what you typed and what you meant are two different things. Although I'm inclined to think you just switched up your argument a bit.



Considering Shuma-Gorath is a Great Old One that conquers entire dimensions, it's not at all ridiculous to think that Shuma-Gorath's power was valuable to Sise-Neg.

And anyway, I didn't say that Sise-Neg got to FP from absorbing Shuma's energy either. I said that he got to FP after reaching the Void where he could harness the Big Bang.

What's "lulzworthy" is that you think Sise-Neg traveled even further back to the void just for the fun of it. He clearly wasn't at FP when he first met Shuma, as your originally intended to argue. But even after you tried to cover that up and say that "he reached FP after confronting Shuma" it still wasn't the case.

Why wouldn't Sise-Neg just recreate everything right then? Do you think he wanted to do it when the lights were off and surprise everybody?




laughing

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
Those statements make it apparent that you meant Sise-Neg already had reached full power before he put Shuma to sleep. Unless what you typed and what you meant are two different things. Although I'm inclined to think you just switched up your argument a bit. I worded it that way because it is pure idiocy to assume the (minimal by comparison) power Sise absorbed from Shuma would have made any sort of difference in whether or not he was able to destroy and recreate the universe. Don't be obtuse.

Originally posted by CortSether
And anyway, I didn't say that Sise-Neg got to FP from absorbing Shuma's energy either. I said that he got to FP after reaching the Void where he could harness the Big Bang. What are you talking about? Unless I missed something, the void was simply where Sise needed to be in order to destroy/recreate the universe. He didn't gain additional power just by teleporting there srsly

Originally posted by CortSether
He clearly wasn't at FP when he first met Shuma, as your originally intended to argue. But even after you tried to cover that up and say that "he reached FP after confronting Shuma" it still wasn't the case. See above. Your stance is entirely nonsensical. The void did not power Sise up in any way/shape/form. It was simply the point he had to travel to for his plan to come into fruition.

Originally posted by CortSether
laughing You've now ignored this part of my post a few times now:


I wonder why..? mmm

Sundipped
Not trying to get into a lenghthy debate here but if you notice in this scan when Sise decides to exterminate Shuma, Steven comments that Sise is the sun:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7656/shumagorathsiseneg2.th.jpg

Later on after Shuma is banished and they continue their journey, (now in the cosmos) Steven comments "he has changed again ! His face so etheral filling the heavens".

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4853/marvelpremiere1417.th.jpg

Taking into consideration it's millions of years between the evolution of man and creation of the cosmos, + the fact that Steven said he changed apperance, it's concievable to say that Sise did obtain more power. Off panel perhaps? Just wanted to throw that out there.

CortSether
Originally posted by Sundipped
Not trying to get into a lenghthy debate here but if you notice in this scan when Sise decides to exterminate Shuma, Steven comments that Sise is the sun:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7656/shumagorathsiseneg2.th.jpg

Later on after Shuma is banished and they continue their journey, (now in the cosmos) Steven comments "he has changed again ! His face so etheral filling the heavens".

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4853/marvelpremiere1417.th.jpg

Taking into consideration it's millions of years between the evolution of man and creation of the cosmos, + the fact that Steven said he changed apperance, it's concievable Sise did obtain more power. Off panel perhaps? Just wanted to throw that out there.

It's a good thing I checked the thread before posting again b/c otherwise we would have had two posts toward Galan007 addressing what you did.

I had to erase all I typed though sad Anyway, thumb up for you.

Galan007
@ Sundipped.

You've got to look at the entire comment Strange made in context: "My power dissipates like fog in the sun--and Sise-Neg is the sun." That comment was pretty clearly meant as a point of comparison between Strange's power and Sise's. After all, Sise was obviously not a literal sun.

Also, there were no mentioned gaps in time between Sise trouncing Shuma, and destroying/recreating the universe. In fact, Sise teleported to the void immediately after he beat Shuma.

Anyhow, here's the whole scene from the time Sise arrived on Shuma's planet, to the time he destroyed and recreated existence, for anyone who's curious:

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9716/marvelpremiere1412.th.jpg http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4489/marvelpremiere1413.th.jpg http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/733/marvelpremiere1414.th.jpg http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/948/marvelpremiere1415.th.jpg http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8317/marvelpremiere1416.th.jpg http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4853/marvelpremiere1417.th.jpg http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2420/marvelpremiere1418.th.jpg http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7313/marvelpremiere1419.th.jpg http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5490/marvelpremiere1420.th.jpg

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Also, there were no mentioned gaps in time between Sise trouncing Shuma, and destroying/recreating the universe. In fact, Sise teleported to the void immediately after he beat Shuma.


Except you know, we see that planets and stars are imploding in upon themselves. The planets and stars didn't form in a day after the Big Bang. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The universe is estimated to be between 15 and 20 billion years old, and our solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago. So for Sise-Neg to appear out of the void he'd have to make a huge jump in time from the Shuma encounter and that point.

That's the biggest jump in time Sise-Neg made.

Sundipped
Well one thing everybody can agree on is that Shuma further empowered him if anything else.

Carry on.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
Except you know, we see that planets and stars are imploding in upon themselves. The planets and stars didn't form in a day after the Big Bang. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The universe is estimated to be between 15 and 20 billion years old, and our solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago. So for Sise-Neg to appear out of the void he'd have to make a huge jump in time from the Shuma encounter and that point.

That's the biggest jump in time Sise-Neg made. So Sise time traveling means he absorbed extra magical power by proxy? Lol, what world are you living in?

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
So Sise time traveling means he absorbed extra magical power by proxy? Lol, what world are you living in?

Nice deflecting.

Anyway, it's practically shoved right in your face that Sise-Neg gained another increase in power just by the fact that his image changed drastically, as it did the first time he gained a large increase in power.

You really think Sise-Neg traveled back billions of years from his encounter with Shuma without absorbing a single thing? Good lord.

And it's not like Sise-Neg was at that point able to unleash a Big Bang whereas he couldn't previously.

O wait...

Galan007
Deflecting? That's horribly ironic coming from you.

Anyhow, Sise teleporting away and beginning to destroy the universe immediately after he owned Shuma, coupled with the fact that nothing was ever mentioned (or even alluded to) that pertained to him absorbing any additional energy, is all the evidence I need. Projecting your opinions here is utterly irrelevant. I am going by exactly what was shown and stated on panel *see above*. Nothing more, nothing less

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Deflecting? That's horribly ironic coming from you.

Anyhow, Sise teleporting away and beginning to destroy the universe immediately after he owned Shuma, coupled with the fact that nothing was ever mentioned (or even alluded to) that pertained to him absorbing any additional energy, is all the evidence I need. Projecting your opinions here is utterly irrelevant. I am going by exactly what was shown and stated on panel *see above*. Nothing more, nothing less

It's not ironic at all, I addressed all your points.

Anyway, most people know that the universe is much older than our solar system and so I hardly think Englehart would feel inclined to state in writing that Sise-Neg traveled billions of years into the past again. He did enough by having Frank Brunner illustrate clearly by showing the stars and planets implode.

You need to take an astronomy class or something, because it's hilarious that you think our solar system was spawned immediately after the Big Bang. laughing out loud

Nothing was alluded to Sise-Neg absorbing more? I guess you'd be right if we didn't have the BIG hints of Sise-Neg's appearance changing drastically once again and then being capable of wielding the Big Bang.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Galan007
@ Sundipped.

You've got to look at the entire comment Strange made in context: "My power dissipates like fog in the sun--and Sise-Neg is the sun." That comment was pretty clearly meant as a point of comparison between Strange's power and Sise's. After all, Sise was obviously not a literal sun.

Also, there were no mentioned gaps in time between Sise trouncing Shuma, and destroying/recreating the universe. In fact, Sise teleported to the void immediately after he beat Shuma.

Anyhow, here's the whole scene from the time Sise arrived on Shuma's planet, to the time he destroyed and recreated existence, for anyone who's curious:

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9716/marvelpremiere1412.th.jpg http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4489/marvelpremiere1413.th.jpg http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/733/marvelpremiere1414.th.jpg http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/948/marvelpremiere1415.th.jpg http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8317/marvelpremiere1416.th.jpg http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4853/marvelpremiere1417.th.jpg http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2420/marvelpremiere1418.th.jpg http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7313/marvelpremiere1419.th.jpg http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5490/marvelpremiere1420.th.jpg

Chapter 3.
Strange: He's changed again.

Sise-Neg: I cannot attempt to destroy it since it takes time and it would leach some of my energy away...But I can draw away much of it's energy before it realizes I'm here.

If he is all power as he is in chapter 4 where he creates the big bang and could easily rage stomp SG, then why bother sapping away SG's energy to put him to sleep?

Chapter 4

Strange: Space and time melts into power...power in the name of Sise-Neg.
Mordo: He's changed again...his face so etheral...filling the heavens.


I agree that being shown as the sun doesn't actually mean he became a sun (limited at that level) or when he filled the heavens. However, the depiction is meant to show the different stages of Sise-Neg's power as he journeyed back in time and absorbed everything. At the final chapter he want back beyond the age of the apemen and absorbed even more hence why Mordo notes that he changed yet again. These changes are the artist's depiction of Sise-Neg increase in power, not just Sise-Neg changing for sh!t and giggles.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
You need to take an astronomy class or something, because it's hilarious that you think our solar system was spawned immediately after the Big Bang. laughing out loud What the heck are you talking about? At absolutely no point in time did I say: "our solar system was spawned immediately after the Big Bang." That is simply you projecting your nonsense toward me.

What I did mention is that after Sise trounced Shuma he made this comment to Strange/Mordo: "Follow me now, for the final time--and we shall seek my journey's end." Then, on the very next page, we see that Sise has begun his 'universal transformation', with absolutely NO mention (by anyone) that he absorbed any further magical power. You're assuming that just because he changed his form it means he must have absorbed additional magical power by proxy--a faulty line of logic, especially given the following statement that Sise made after finding Shuma (which you have seemed to have ignored.)

-Sise-
"I know not its name , but I sense it to be an other dimensional entity--the FINAL possessor of mystical energy I must have":
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/733/marvelpremiere1414.th.jpg

Per Sise, Shuma was the final mystical being in existence. So it's no surprise that immediately after he beat the slug, he teleported away and began destroying the universe.

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
What the heck are you talking about? At absolutely no point in time did I say: "our solar system was spawned immediately after the Big Bang." That is simply you projecting your nonsense toward me.

Really? Here's what you said:

Also, there were no mentioned gaps in time between Sise trouncing Shuma, and destroying/recreating the universe. In fact, Sise teleported to the void immediately after he beat Shuma.

For this to be true you would have to believe our solar system was created and finished almost immediately after the Big Bang. Sise-Neg didn't just "teleport away". He made a jump in time billions of years into the past. You're projecting your own ignorance or maybe you just don't know how to make a coherent argument.



I actually addressed Sise-Neg's statements within one of my first batch of posts, you just decided to ignore my response apparently.

And it's assumed he absorbed more because he changed his form again, as he did each time he absorbed a great amount of power, and the author even made it a point to have it mentioned. You think Sise-Neg just changed his form again for the heck of it?

confused

What point does this prove? Yeah, Shuma-Gorath was the final mystical being he needed, but time and space were still intact and you'll notice that he had to make sure all of that was gone before he was able to create a Big Bang. Sise-Neg wouldn't be able to become the Supreme Being or "God" if he didn't control all of time and space - which he clearly didn't even after absorbing Shuma-Gorath's energy. He needed to reduce everything to the void first. You seem to believe that the Void is merely a location rather than a state of condition.


Anyway, your whole thing originally was that it's ridiculous to think Sise-Neg would have trouble in a head on battle with Shuma-Gorath because he went on to create a Big Bang - which is a moot point because he wasn't at full power when first confronting Shuma. I don't even think you know what you're arguing anymore.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
Really? Here's what you said:

Also, there were no mentioned gaps in time between Sise trouncing Shuma, and destroying/recreating the universe. In fact, Sise teleported to the void immediately after he beat Shuma.

For this to be true you would have to believe our solar system was created and finished almost immediately after the Big Bang. Sise-Neg didn't just "teleport away". He made a jump in time billions of years into the past. You're projecting your own ignorance or maybe you just don't know how to make a coherent argument. Yet even more irony from you. Let's try to keep the insults out of this. They make you look childish.

Anyhow, Sise is a time/dimension traveler and can control time/space on a universal scale. That's why there were no relative time gaps. He beat Shuma (aka. "the FINAL possessor of mystical energy."wink Then immediately teleported away and began destroying the universe. Get it? If Shuma was the "FINAL" mystical being out there, then it's blatantly clear that Sise didn't absorb any further magical energy, because there was none left to absorb.

Question: if I have 1 cookie left in the jar, and I eat it, how many cookies are left in the jar? Answer: none. It's literally that simple.

Originally posted by CortSether
And it's assumed he absorbed more because he changed his form again, as he did each time he absorbed a great amount of power, and the author even made it a point to have it mentioned. You think Sise-Neg just changed his form again for the heck of it? It's assumed by you, but I could care less about that. Sise obviously didn't absorb any further magics, as Shuma was the FINAL mystical being (per Sise's own accord.) That being said, changing forms can be attributed solely to him finally utilizing the full extent of his powers. Remember, he was conserving his energies beforehand (see his battle with Shuma) because he needed them in order to achieve his final goals. Once Shuma (the FINAL mystical being in existence) was out of the picture, Sise no longer had to conserve his energies, because his absorption-spree was finished.

Originally posted by CortSether
Sise-Neg wouldn't be able to become the Supreme Being or "God" if he didn't control all of time and space - which he clearly didn't even after absorbing Shuma-Gorath's energy. You're ignoring what was shown entirely now, and are instead projecting your own dillusions.

Sise beat "the FINAL possessor of mystical energy" (Shuma.) Immediately after doing so, he teleported away and began destroying the universe. So going by what was stated AND shown in the comic (without projecting personal opinion), Sise's power was, for all intents and purposes, 'complete' after his trouncing of Shuma.

Why? Because nothing was shown or stated that pertained to him absorbing additional magics after his battle with "the FINAL possessor of mystical energy"--and immediately after he beat the former, he began mucking up the universe.

Merlyn
Originally posted by Galan007
-Sise-
"I know not its name , but I sense it to be an other dimensional entity--the FINAL possessor of mystical energy I must have":
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/733/marvelpremiere1414.th.jpg I can see both sides of the argument, but this was the clencher for me. Sis-Neg flat out said Shuma contained the last bit of magical power. He absorbed that energy (or at least some of it) and after that had nothing left to absorb, so he was free to annihilate the universe. If there was still more to be absorbed after facing Shuma, the writer would have surely stated so. He had no problems mentioning such before hand.

CortSether
Originally posted by Galan007
Yet even more irony from you. Let's try to keep the insults out of this. They make you look childish.

It's not meant to be an insult it's simply meant to say keep your argument more concise so you don't jump around all over the place and make what you're arguing hard to follow. i.e. First saying that Sise-Neg was at full power "by the time" he fought Shuma, indicating you meant he was at FP before that and then later saying "between confronting Shuma and recreating the universe". Those are clearly different things.



Just because you have the ability to jump through time doesn't mean you can control all of time and space at a whim. If he could control all time/space in the universe just through time travel technique then he wouldn't need to absorb mystical power to achieve his goal of recreating it in his image.



Well why didn't you say that from the beginning then? The relative part would have been important to include in the beginning in order for others not to conclude that you meant Sise-Neg didn't travel any further back from the time on Earth to the point when he made the Big Bang.



Yes, thanks for finally being clear.



Okay, I can now see eye to eye with you on this point. So I agree that Sise-Neg didn't absorb anything more after absorbing from Shuma. But now that that's out of the way...

Let's not forget where the original dispute was. We both agreed that by the time Sise-Neg is able to create anew the Marvel Universe he would easily be able to stomp Shuma-Gorath. Yet you originally said that Sise-Neg was at full power when he saw Shuma-Gorath. That's the main point I've been trying to address this whole time. You said:



You're saying here that Sise-Neg would have been able to recreate Marvel without Shuma's energy In the very scan you provided with Sise-Neg recognizing Shuma, he states ""I know not its name, but I sense it to be an other dimensional entity--the FINAL possessor of mystical energy I must have."

That shows without any room for argument that Sise-Neg needed Shuma-Gorath's power in order to recreate the universe. You don't think a God's power added to someone else makes a difference in the magical capability of the person absorbing said power?



Yes, it shows a difference in power. But that does not show that Sise-Neg would have had an easy time with Shuma-Gorath had they fought directly. Shuma has the same energy absorption ability that Sise-Neg possessed and a battle between them would have been a back and forth of drawing power from each other. Yeah, Sise-Neg would have probably won - but it would not have been nearly as easy as you suggest it would have been, based on Sise-Neg's comments that disposing of Shuma would take time and energy. And I'll repeat it again, if Sise-Neg was so certain he could defeat Shuma in a head to head battle at that point he could have just attacked him and absorb him later, and that would be that.



I still don't understand how you think this is an indicator of how a battle between them would go. Shuma-Gorath wasn't even fighting or using any of its power to attack or defend. That's like saying you could go up to some random guy and put a bullet in his brain while he's eating and because you defeated him easily with that you'd be able to take him out just as easily if he was actually able to defend himself.

Galan007
Originally posted by CortSether
Well why didn't you say that from the beginning then? The relative part would have been important to include in the beginning in order for others not to conclude that you meant Sise-Neg didn't travel any further back from the time on Earth to the point when he made the Big Bang. Tbh, I figured that mentioning Sise's ability to time travel (multiple times) was all the clarity that was needed. If he can time travel, then he can obviously traverse the span of eons, instantly. Hence, there would be no gaps in time.

Every post I made that addressed the above was speaking from a relative point of view.

Originally posted by CortSether
Okay, I can now see eye to eye with you on this point. So I agree that Sise-Neg didn't absorb anything more after absorbing from Shuma. Thank God. thumb up

Originally posted by CortSether
Let's not forget where the original dispute was. We both agreed that by the time Sise-Neg is able to create anew the Marvel Universe he would easily be able to stomp Shuma-Gorath. Yet you originally said that Sise-Neg was at full power when he saw Shuma-Gorath. That's the main point I've been trying to address this whole time. You said: I already addressed this. I worded it that way because (imo) absorbing just a portion of Shuma's power didn't make all difference in whether Sise was able to destroy/recreate existence. Not to mention that Sise didn't seem overly concerned (during the actual confrontation) with absorbing the whole of Shuma's power.

Originally posted by CortSether
You're saying here that Sise-Neg would have been able to recreate Marvel without Shuma's energy In the very scan you provided with Sise-Neg recognizing Shuma, he states ""I know not its name, but I sense it to be an other dimensional entity--the FINAL possessor of mystical energy I must have." Right, but like I said above, Sise also wasn't too worried about going out of his way to absorb all of Shuma's power. He simply drew away enough power to put the slug to sleep. That's it. If absorbing Shuma's energies in their entirety would have made the difference in whether or not Sise could accomplish his final goals, then surely he would have done everything he could to absorb that power.

Originally posted by CortSether
That shows without any room for argument that Sise-Neg needed Shuma-Gorath's power in order to recreate the universe. You don't think a God's power added to someone else makes a difference in the magical capability of the person absorbing said power? Except he didn't absorb all of Shuma's power- just a portion of it.

Originally posted by CortSether
I still don't understand how you think this is an indicator of how a battle between them would go. Shuma-Gorath wasn't even fighting or using any of its power to attack or defend. Sise was literally right in front of Shuma. That being said, Sise taking away enough power from Shuma to render him comatose, then proceeding to trap him in another dimension for millenia... With a blink. Is testament to the power difference that already existed between them. If Shuma would have been close to Sise's level, then surely he would have been able to defend against the drain in some way/shape/form, no?

Sundipped
One thing that I can gather from all this is that Shuma is much more powerful than most people give him credit for.

Sise had soaked up all magical forces from the 31st century back to the prehistoric age of humans. Keep in mind that the only power left needed to destroy and recreate 616 was Shuma's. At the same time on the flip side of that, he avoided a direct confrontation with the creature because he shares the same abilities.

Now I know it's still Sise>>Shuma but I'm sitting here wondering how much more power would Shuma need to replicate that same feat? mhmm

Galan007
See I'm kind of the opposite. Taking Shuma's entire history into account, I don't think he's as powerful as people give him credit for.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Galan007
See I'm kind of the opposite. Taking Shuma's entire history into account, I don't think he's as powerful as people give him credit for. it's a bit of both IMO. In a straight fight I'll give him a heads up against even the highest tiers for the most part but he tends to be a bit stupid for all his power and this lets others get a 1-up over him.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
See I'm kind of the opposite. Taking Shuma's entire history into account, I don't think he's as powerful as people give him credit for.

Have you seen his ACTUAL on panel fights? Humiliating laughing

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Have you seen his ACTUAL on panel fights? Humiliating laughing

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/opg1d.gif

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/opg1d.gif

http://www.profilebrand.com/funny-pictures/category/celebrity/334_pen-says-stfu.gif

CortSether
Originally posted by Sundipped
One thing that I can gather from all this is that Shuma is much more powerful than most people give him credit for.

Sise had soaked up all magical forces from the 31st century back to the prehistoric age of humans. Keep in mind that the only power left needed to destroy and recreate 616 was Shuma's. At the same time on the flip side of that, he avoided a direct confrontation with the creature because he shares the same abilities.

Now I know it's still Sise>>Shuma but I'm sitting here wondering how much more power would Shuma need to replicate that same feat? mhmm

Well, I'd personally place Shuma-Gorath at the level of the combined Vishanti under normal circumstances.

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