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I live in the Greater Toronto Area.

Virtually everytime I travel to the downtown core I am accosted by homeless people looking for money.

When I was younger I would often throw my spare change into their hats, guitar cases etc. But in my old age I have grown stingier. My clever, witty stock response is usually after being asked, 'Do you take debit??' as I rarely carry cash any more.

Do any of you fellows out there give directly to vagrants in your area?

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more panhandlers here in Winnipeg than T-dot.

I don't give money, I've given like a slice of pizza or other things if I have it.

Originally posted by inimalist
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more panhandlers here in Winnipeg than T-dot.

I don't give money, I've given like a slice of pizza or other things if I have it.

Were they grateful for something other than money?

And Winnipeg is worse??? Never been..

incredibly worse, and it is racialized here too...

some were, though, I'm not naive enough to think that all panhandlers are just looking for their next meal. I've been with friends who have given money, in fact, the exact amount of money the guy was asking for, which caused the panhandler to get upset.

I wont pretend to understand it, lol. There are charities that appear to bring them sandwiches or the like, so I'm not sure if food is really scarce or what?

EDIT: I never lived in Toronto proper, Mississauga for many years, so this is my observation rather than having a lot of experience with the homeless in Toronto

Originally posted by inimalist
incredibly worse, and it is racialized here too...

some were, though, I'm not naive enough to think that all panhandlers are just looking for their next meal. I've been with friends who have given money, in fact, the exact amount of money the guy was asking for, which caused the panhandler to get upset.

I wont pretend to understand it, lol. There are charities that appear to bring them sandwiches or the like, so I'm not sure if food is really scarce or what?

EDIT: I never lived in Toronto proper, Mississauga for many years, so this is my observation rather than having a lot of experience with the homeless in Toronto

What do you mean 'racialized'? Are a high percentage of them Native?

Originally posted by theICONiac
What do you mean 'racialized'? Are a high percentage of them Native?

a vast majority... 8/10 from my experience

also, I've met white homeless in the city who do what they can to emphasize their own native-ness.

http://www.uwinnipeg.ca/index/news-homeless-facts

Originally posted by inimalist
a vast majority... 8/10 from my experience

also, I've met white homeless in the city who do what they can to emphasize their own native-ness.

Interesting as I'd say 8/10 in Toronto are white. Given the ethnic makeup of T.O. and surrounding areas you would almost say whites are at a disadvantage

apparently 1/3 of homeless in Toronto are immigrant, I suppose that doesn't say anything about race, but...

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/one-third-toronto-homeless-are-immigrants-most-them-women-carribean

I don't think I would ever suggest that white people as a whole are at anything close to the disadvantage that immigrant or native populations face... at the very least, 2/3 of homeless sort of falls right in line with demographic charts:

EDIT: wtf, can't make the image work... follow the link, it is a pie chart that shows just above 50-55% of people in Toronto are white. Outside of the MTA, that demographic would skyrocket, suggesting that homeless from those areas would influence the Toronto number

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ File:Toronto_census_2006_pie_chart_visible_minorit
ies_population_characteristics.png

and there are lots of reasons why some immigrant populations (in north america, Arabs for instance, afaik) are less likely to become homeless.

We should start a thread on Advantages/Disadvantages of being Native...very interesting topic.

I'm curious as to what you think the advantage is? no sales tax?

EDIT: jeez, link doesn't work either, and I'm on my way to class....

its the wikipedia for "demographics of toronto", it is one of the graphics on the right side. The demographic chart puts natives and whites in the same category... which is understandable in terms of immigration, but not helpful here.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm curious as to what you think the advantage is? no sales tax?

I certainly recognize the myriad of problems facing Natives here, but properly played out a Canadian of First Nations descent (at least 1/4 native) has a decent shot at a happy, succesful life with things like:

1. An attendance allowance while in highschool (was $60/week as I recall native friends saying when I was in school).
2. Free housing on the reserve
3. Free University education
4. Wood/fishing rights not available to others

This is off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other 'perks' I am missing.

Unfortunately being stuck in the mire of multi-generational, cyclical substance abuse/domestic violence sees few Natives capitalizing on these benefits and realizing their full potential.

I say nay what homeless people need are jobs not money. If they have money they will only use it on drinks and drugs.

Traveling around London, especially near Waterloo station and the little underpasses through to the IMAX you get a ton of them. I have no pity for them so I ignore them most of the time although I rarely get approached by them, not to ask money anyway, usually when they have had too much to drink.

Originally posted by theICONiac
I certainly recognize the myriad of problems facing Natives here, but properly played out a Canadian of First Nations descent (at least 1/4 native) has a decent shot at a happy, succesful life with things like:

1. An attendance allowance while in highschool (was $60/week as I recall native friends saying when I was in school).
2. Free housing on the reserve
3. Free University education
4. Wood/fishing rights not available to others

This is off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other 'perks' I am missing.

Unfortunately being stuck in the mire of multi-generational, cyclical substance abuse/domestic violence sees few Natives capitalizing on these benefits and realizing their full potential.

things like free housing on a reserve are a double edged sword at best, like self-government.

the hunting and fishing rights are interesting, but hardly a worthwhile advantage... and when it comes to cultural things, these rights are more likely to be used as a bargaining chip by native leaders to... extort(?) money from the federal government.

Funding for attending school or free university are nice, but hardly used. I had a native friend who did chemical engineering, and she was constantly being given thousands of dollars because she was native and was winning competitions. The reason she won so frequently was because there was essentially zero competition, she was one of the only native students in the region.

Its like if they started giving funds for people who were over 8 feet tall. Its a nice gesture, but there are going to be so few people who are in a situation to take advantage of it, that it hardly changes anyone's living conditions for the better.

I'm sure there is a list of things that natives supposedly "get" from our government or special "rights" that they have, but in almost all cases, these are implemented by a disinterested Ottawa through corrupt tribe governing systems. The average native, I would argue, is probably hurt more by things like self-government, no property tax on reserves or whatever considerations we make to their "traditional" practices.

Sure, I pay for my schooling. I have so many more opportunities and privileges compared to a native person though, that it really is a moot point. Would I have liked an extra $60 a week to go to school? of course! Would it have made a single difference in my life, no.

Though, there is a point to be made about non-natives who come from similar conditions having less options, which I'd say is a different point entirely, but a valid point (though, finding a place in canada that would be considered a "non-native" reserve would be incredibly difficult, inner-city poverty often doesn't even come close)

There was a time when I would give spare cash to homeless people, a buck here a quarter there. Nowadays though, I'm jaded. San Francisco is infested with the ****ing bums, and the truth is that this city caters to them more than it does to those who are actual functioning members of society. If you're homeless in San Francisco you can find places that will feed you for free three times a day every day of the week, you can even choose special foods like vegan food, japanese, etc etc. There's a shit ton of housing available for the homeless to sleep at as well.

The City takes such good care of them that I don't feel the need to. Especially since most homeless are in that state because a)they choose to be, b)they're mentally ill, or c) they're addicted to drugs, in which case me giving them 50 cents or buying them some food isn't going to help anyway.

Only time I'll ever give a homeless person money is if they provide some kind of service for me, like holding a door open for me, or if they've got kids with them.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I say nay what homeless people need are jobs not money. If they have money they will only use it on drinks and drugs.

Exactly! And they tend to be rather rude/aggressive about it.

Case in point, I took my father last year to a Leafs game at the ACC. After the game we get out in the parking lot; my father guides me as I back my car out of a tight space with no visibility. A homeless person approaches him:

Bum: Hey bud got any change?
Daddy ICON: Nope, sorry, nothing.
Bum: Got any bills?
Daddy ICON: Pffft. I'm not giving you any bills
Bum: Your a f@cking @sshole!
Daddy ICON: F@ck you
Bum: NO, F@@@@@@@CK YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUU!!!

I hear this exchange going on, and step out of the car in fear this was going to turn physical. Homeless person takes off.

If I had had a bottle of Listerine or Brut 33 I could have given it to the guy...would have made his night

I used to not have a problem with it, and would give out any spare change i didn't need, but then people started sitting beside ATMs and approaching me in the street. Not good.

Not to mention the proliferation of Eastern European gangs that beg to make money before getting picked up by their parents in a BMW, and the few times i've seen so-called "beggers" with nike shoes that are just a little bit too clean.

I'm North of Toronto in Thornhill, so there ins't much panhandling here, but I take the subway down town all the time. Sometimes there is a little old lady begging at Finch station... gets me every time. I can't say no.

Originally posted by inimalist
Would I have liked an extra $60 a week to go to school? of course! Would it have made a single difference in my life, no.

Yeah, imma say that's complete bullsh*t on your part. It would have made a tremendous different.


Sure, you may have wasted the money with your immaturity...

I've never given a penny to a homeless person or a panhandler. Never will either.

Originally posted by inimalist


also, I've met white homeless in the city who do what they can to emphasize their own native-ness.

Is it as bad as N. Americans who love to tell you that they're 1/50th Apache or Cherokee?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, imma say that's complete bullsh*t on your part. It would have made a tremendous different.


Sure, you may have wasted the money with your immaturity...

not really, my parents both made a lot of money, and I had a job that paid well above minimum...

I'd admit there are people who are not native who didn't have that kind of opportunity or privilege, but no, you are incorrect, 240 a month would not have improved my life in any meaningful way.

maybe if I had saved it all, never spending anything, etc, sure. But that is hardly the point of the program. If native kids were in a situation where they were able to save money for further education, I wouldnt support giving them incentive to be educated at all. though, im not 100% in support of the program anyways

Originally posted by Robtard
Is it as bad as N. Americans who love to tell you that they're 1/50th Apache or Cherokee?

huh, I've not come across those type... I can imagine it would be annoying...

Originally posted by inimalist
not really, my parents both made a lot of money, and I had a job that paid well above minimum...

I'd admit there are people who are not native who didn't have that kind of opportunity or privilege, but no, you are incorrect, 240 a month would not have improved my life in any meaningful way.

maybe if I had saved it all, never spending anything, etc, sure. But that is hardly the point of the program. If native kids were in a situation where they were able to save money for further education, I wouldnt support giving them incentive to be educated at all. though, im not 100% in support of the program

BTW that $60/week attendance bonus was back in the early 90's.

I imagine it is quite a bit more now. Say $100/week.

That is $400/500 per month just to show up to school daily.

Originally posted by inimalist
not really, my parents both made a lot of money, and I had a job that paid well above minimum...

I thought the "thought problem" was for a poor person attending highschool?



In that instance, yes, it would help a bunch. In my case, it would have also helped a bunch.


My parents made just enough to keep us house, clothed, and fed...but not much else.

Originally posted by theICONiac
BTW that $60/week attendance bonus was back in the early 90's.

I imagine it is quite a bit more now. Say $100/week.

That is $400/500 per month just to show up to school daily.

and yet the graduation rate for native kids is terrible

obviously throwing money at them isn't going to make their life better

they certainly aren't benefiting much from the policy....

Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought the "thought problem" was for a poor person attending highschool?



In that instance, yes, it would help a bunch. In my case, it would have also helped a bunch.


My parents made just enough to keep us house, clothed, and fed...but not much else.

it might be even more effective in a situation like where you are from. I don't want to make assumptions, but I'd imagine the environment you were from wasn't as toxic to your upbringing as reserves can be

Originally posted by inimalist
it might be even more effective in a situation like where you are from. I don't want to make assumptions, but I'd imagine the environment you were from wasn't as toxic to your upbringing as reserves can be

All the more reason that a teen should get out and attend highschool.



And...I REALLY could have used a $60 a week stipend. pained

Originally posted by dadudemon
All the more reason that a teen should get out and attend highschool.

and yet for some reason they don't

apparently throwing money at the situation doesn't work

Originally posted by inimalist
and yet for some reason they don't

apparently throwing money at the situation doesn't work

The situation doesn't have money being thrown at it, quite apparently.

They must pursue the money/apply for it.


But why don't they go to school if they get a stipend? Seems like a really good reason to go...especially if you're poor and live in an oppressive home.

The real question is: are they even aware that they get this program IF they go to school? Maybe throwing more money at the situation is the solution: advertising it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But why don't they go to school if they get a stipend? Seems like a really good reason to go...especially if you're poor and live in an oppressive home.

because human behaviour is often not pragmatic at all

Originally posted by inimalist
because human behaviour is often not pragmatic at all

That depends on your philsophical approach and application of "pragmatism" concerning the behavior.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That depends on your philsophical approach and application of "pragmatism" concerning the behavior.

not really...

Originally posted by inimalist
not really...

Your comeback has devastated my perspective.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your comeback has devastated my perspective.

on this one we really dont even need to get into the mechanisms of human motivation on any theoretical level

social psych has run these types of studies for years. Money motivates some types of behaviour, but not others. In specific tests to see if money improved grades, got students to attend more classes, etc, it has been shown repeatedly that paying people actually makes them less interested in what they are doing. In terms of schooling, money has just flat out been shown not to work. This is true in controlled studies and in real world applications.

as logical as it might be for someone to want to take advantage of being paid to go to school, for some reason, giving them money for it as encouragement is actually counter-productive. I'm not a social psychologist nor do I really do anything regarding this type of motivation, so I can't comment too deeply on the mechanisms involved here, but this is intro soc-psych stuff. I don't even know the specific studies, because this concept is covered as a general principle in intro texts; it is that robust is what I mean.

Originally posted by inimalist
on this one we really dont even need to get into the mechanisms of human motivation on any theoretical level

social psych has run these types of studies for years. Money motivates some types of behaviour, but not others. In specific tests to see if money improved grades, got students to attend more classes, etc, it has been shown repeatedly that paying people actually makes them less interested in what they are doing. In terms of schooling, money has just flat out been shown not to work. This is true in controlled studies and in real world applications.

as logical as it might be for someone to want to take advantage of being paid to go to school, for some reason, giving them money for it as encouragement is actually counter-productive. I'm not a social psychologist nor do I really do anything regarding this type of motivation, so I can't comment too deeply on the mechanisms involved here, but this is intro soc-psych stuff. I don't even know the specific studies, because this concept is covered as a general principle in intro texts; it is that robust is what I mean.


1. Sometimes, when someone disagrees with you, you say that it has been studied and then talk about an almost irrelevant study. The scenario is not "money being offered to someone to get an education". The scenario is, "money is being offered to someone, that is living in a toxic home, to leave that toxic home at least for part of the day."
2. When someone disagrees with you, you like to top off your disagreements with "this is intro psych" or "this would be covered in first year psych". Now you'll be aware of this everytime you go to say it. But your comeback to this is something about burning the brain cells that stored that memory. My comeback is something like you will remember but pretend not to and then curse me as you delete subsequent portions of your posts that contain the same information. (See, 3 replies taken care of in one post. Efficiency!)
3. You're way off base. That's not the direction I was intending my comment about pragmatism, at all.
4. I'm not very serious about this conversation at all. It just seems that a person that hates their living conditions, when presented with a way to partially escape them while getting paid, would take the pay. It seems more likely that they are not aware of the opportunity or if they are aware, it has not be adequately presented to either the children or the caretakers/parents.
4.1 Yes, I am aware of familial social pressures keeping people in static SES: the man is always bringing me down, bro!


To be honest, we probably don't even need to discuss this without knowing the entirety of the other's position.

What does any of this have to do with homeless bums on the street asking you for money?

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. When someone disagrees with you, you like to top off your disagreements with "this is intro psych" or "this would be covered in first year psych". Now you'll be aware of this everytime you go to say it. But your comeback to this is something about burning the brain cells that stored that memory. My comeback is something like you will remember but pretend not to and then curse me as you delete subsequent portions of your posts that contain the same information. (See, 3 replies taken care of in one post. Efficiency!)

I'm well aware I say that frequently, it is meant to say "this is so well established that in many ways it is a foundational series of findings that are required to understand core concepts within the science", not as a put down.

Originally posted by dadudemon
4. I'm not very serious about this conversation at all. It just seems that a person that hates their living conditions, when presented with a way to partially escape them while getting paid, would take the pay. It seems more likely that they are not aware of the opportunity or if they are aware, it has not be adequately presented to either the children or the caretakers/parents.

or, as I pointed out, money being poor at incentivizing people to get an education might be a good reason for why offering people money to go to school might not incentivize them to do so

but I can see how that is an irrelevant finding to what we are talking about

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm well aware I say that frequently, it is meant to say "this is so well established that in many ways it is a foundational series of findings that are required to understand core concepts within the science", not as a put down.

But, wait, #1.

But you do admit that you're using it as an argument tool or a persuasion, tool, right?



Originally posted by inimalist
or, as I pointed out, money being poor at incentivizing people to get an education might be a good reason for why offering people money to go to school might not incentivize them to do so

but I can see how that is an irrelevant finding to what we are talking about

I see this is a conflation again.

This is not "pay a person to get an education", this is, "pay a person to escape a shitty situation and an education sweetens the deal".



Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What does any of this have to do with homeless bums on the street asking you for money?

Yes, how dare we talk about those who are being incentivized out of abject poverty. It's almost as if we are talking about the panhandlers in their primordial states. Getting to the core problems of discussions is for bitches, right? uhuh

I dont mind giving a bum a couple dollars here or there but if i get the feeling the bum is going to buy liquor with it.... then no. its easier just to give them food, so you know they are getting something worthwhile out of it.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
I dont mind giving a bum a couple dollars here or there but if i get the feeling the bum is going to buy liquor with it.... then no. its easier just to give them food, so you know they are getting something worthwhile out of it. Until they hock that sandwich for vodka. I hear liquor stores accept anything as currency these days.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Until they hock that sandwich for vodka. I hear liquor stores accept anything as currency these days.

I wish

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What does any of this have to do with homeless bums on the street asking you for money?

Exactly! Told you inimalist we should have started a seperate thread!

Back on topic: how about bum fights?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights

Or bumvertising:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumvertising

Exploitation of the homeless or good, clean charitable fun?

Originally posted by theICONiac
Exactly! And they tend to be rather rude/aggressive about it.

Case in point, I took my father last year to a Leafs game at the ACC. After the game we get out in the parking lot; my father guides me as I back my car out of a tight space with no visibility. A homeless person approaches him:

Bum: Hey bud got any change?
Daddy ICON: Nope, sorry, nothing.
Bum: Got any bills?
Daddy ICON: Pffft. I'm not giving you any bills
Bum: Your a f@cking @sshole!
Daddy ICON: F@ck you
Bum: NO, F@@@@@@@CK YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUU!!!

I hear this exchange going on, and step out of the car in fear this was going to turn physical. Homeless person takes off.

If I had had a bottle of Listerine or Brut 33 I could have given it to the guy...would have made his night

and he will also be back on the streets looking for more money if you did give him any money,

Originally posted by dadudemon
But you do admit that you're using it as an argument tool or a persuasion, tool, right?

in so far as something being a robust and consistent finding is convincing, sure

Its more of a stand in for "just take my word for it", though I think a little bit more intellectually honest

If you really want I can probably dig this stuff up, like I said though, its social psych and not my area, so it would be harder than most of the stuff we discuss, however, I don't see you really questioning the validity of the claim...

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, wait, #1.

...

I see this is a conflation again.

This is not "pay a person to get an education", this is, "pay a person to escape a shitty situation and an education sweetens the deal".

we actually already do that entirely. Native people can collect welfare. This is, literally, "paying someone to escape a shitty situation", as all the person need do is fog a mirror to get money, and yet still, still, money does not motivate people to improve their situation. In fact, the ability for native people to collect welfare and live without paying property tax on the reserve produces a terrible cycle. If you look up the research on learned helplessness (not that I think it is entirely relevant here) you see organisms will adapt to terrible situations such that, even if presented with the ability to escape, they wont. They learn to make do in the environment they are in. Or, at the very least, just giving people money doesn't motivate them to escape that environment. Money helps, and is the tool or mechanism through which those who are already motivated to leave will, but it is that core motivation that we need to address, not the mechanism.

A terrible comparison would be with pharmacological treatment of psychological issues. It treats the symptoms, it produces a mechanism through which people can get through day to day life, but it doesn't motivate them to deal with the issues that cause their problems. In fact, pharmacological approaches to mental health often leave people with either a literal or perceived dependence on their medication to feel good, as it never addresses the things making them feel bad.

and the policy isn't "education sweetens the deal of 'give-them-money-to-improve-their-condition'", the policy is "money sweetens the deal of 'give-them-education-to-improve-their-condition'". Just as a point of reference, do you know about the "native schools" issues we had a few decades ago? where we would take natives from their homes and put them in, what we thought were, good schools? Its the same ideological motivation behind both of these policies, basically: "we need native kids in school". The best proof of this is that, even if it were $100 a week to attend, that isn't enough to live off of. They aren't saying "here is the money you need to get off the reserve, oh, and by the way, here is some education", they are saying "you need to go to school, but for some reason you wont, so lets pay you to do it"

The way you ask it, money isn't really even relevant to the question. Escaping a toxic environment like that should, according to "rational actor" theories of human behaviour, be incentive enough to leave. Natives should look at their situation and go "gee, I need to go to school/save money/do whatever I can to make it off the reserve", but they don't, for a myriad of reasons I'm sure we don't disagree much on.

The money isn't the key, education is. The government is under the mistaken idea that money will incentivize people to get education, which is demonstrably false, through experimental studies and from just the fact that the policy doesn't really make native kids graduate highschool at a rate comparable to any other group.

Originally posted by theICONiac
Exactly! Told you inimalist we should have started a seperate thread!

lol, if every time ddm and I got off on a tangent we created a new thread, KMC would need to create a forum just for that

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, if every time ddm and I got off on a tangent we created a new thread, KMC would need to create a forum just for that

Then I say we petition the mods to get you 2 your own forum

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Until they hock that sandwich for vodka. I hear liquor stores accept anything as currency these days.

Really?

I havent heard that, my friend told me he traded some coke (the drug, not the soda) for like 10 chicken tacos at this chicken place lol.

I used to give panhandlers money on semi-regular basis when I was younger, but I stopped doing so many years ago when one of them got indignant that I didn't give him enough (I rarely carry cash) & he said, "That's it?" It made me sick - he should have been glad I was giving him anything at all.

So, now I don't give to anyone. As far as I'm concerned, giving to panhandlers is just enabling them anyway.

However, note that there are at least three types of panhandling:

1) People carrying signs & not verbally asking for money. This is the least intrusive form of panhandling, and doesn't bother people too much. I've mainly seen this in NYC - an area that has really cracked down on panhandling (fortunately for those who live there & tourists).

2) People asking for money, and then moving on if you say No.

3) However, this last one really pisses me off: Aggressive panhandlers. It really burns me up when I see them demand money from passerby, and then get abusive/threatening if they're not given any $. F$%#%$# low-lifes.

What also pisses me off is when I see these junkies with Smart-phones/I-phones. So, these people have enough money to pay an expensive Smart-phone/I-phone bill, and yet they're still begging?!! WTF?! I don't even have an I-phone/Smart-phone - and I work full-time. What a joke.

Not going to give money to a random person I know nothing about, nope.

Why would I give the money I worked for to some person who'll blow it on booze and drugs? We should be cleansing the world of homeless people and degenerates.

Nope.

I don't give beggars, bums, or panhandlers even one cent of my money.

Time to get that Soylent Green Franchise up and started.

Its been 12 months.

Originally posted by shiv
Its been 12 months.

Sounds like a song.

I live in eastern europe,but i never give money to homeless people.

No. I grew up in south florida where a lot of the bums migrate to because it's warm, and where there was also a huge crack problem when I was growing up. I have given to them in the past but after a while you get approached so much that I just sort of developed a standard "no" answer for anyone who asks because I don't have the money to be handing out to every down on their luck crackhead/mental case.

My dad was also in the sobriety programs so we knew quite a few of these people personally, and occasionally we would come across one of them and then we would give them money because we knew them. But the problem really is that you are almost certainly just helping them fuel their addiction by giving them cash. I remember one time I went to the ghetto corner store next to my house first thing when they opened at 7 am and I saw a homeless man pay for a single steel reserve 211 beer with all pennies.