Steve Jobs Dead to Cancer at 56

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Symmetric Chaos
He'll be back in a year when Apple realizes they still need him.

dadudemon
RIP, Stevie Boy.


I hope I done get cancer, either. sad

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by dadudemon
I hope I done get caner, either. sad

Wuts dat? 313

dadudemon
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wuts dat? 313

scared




I dunno...wut is it? 313

FistOfThe North
oh man.

that was outta no where.

r.i.p. from one techie to another.

(the htc evo's still the worlds best phone though, imo.)

Lord Lucien
Kinda funny how a billionaire dies of cancer at 56, but there are drug-addled homeless men still alive and older than that.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kinda funny how a billionaire dies of cancer at 56, but there are drug-addled homeless men still alive and older than that.



I hate that life is so short and it can be hell on us...even the richest of us.

Bardock42
It's very sad. I didn't really take him stepping down as seriously, so this came out of nowhere for me. He did some great things for technology, and his keynotes were so iconic.

dadudemon
He was 56!

Just 56.



I plan to live to 80 or 90...so that freaks me out a bit.

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
He was 56!

Just 56.



I plan to live to 80 or 90...so that freaks me out a bit.

Yeah, it's quite shaking me at the moment too.

JASON221
bad newshttp://www.imgquick.com/images/43.gif

Bardock42
I wrote a blog post trying to articulate some of the thoughts and feelings that went through my mind.

http://gatheringstatic.com/bardocksbatcave/archives/37

Lord Lucien
Why his death upsetting?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Why his death upsetting?

To me it is upsetting because I feel like he was a positive influence on the tech scene and with this on our lives as a whole

Lord Lucien
That's still more of an "Aww too bad" thing more than a "deeply saddening" thing. People are deeply saddened when a close friend dies, but a technology mogul that introduced cool inventions, but whom you never knew, isn't in the same ball park.


And if he is... wow.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's still more of an "Aww too bad" thing more than a "deeply saddening" thing. People are deeply saddened when a close friend dies, but a technology mogul that introduced cool inventions, but whom you never knew, isn't in the same ball park.


And if he is... wow. I can't help how I feel, but I understand what you mean, though I disagree. I think a lot of things that don't personally involve you can be "deeply saddening", perhaps we just use different scales, your "deeply saddening" may be my "paralyzing despair" or something else.

But yeah, I understand what you mean, we feel very connected to celebrities now, even though we don't know them personally. But it makes sense, people works and lives speak to us, musicians, authors make us feel connected to them, that is part of the power they have. Steve Jobs, through years of close exposure through the media, spoke to me, and I admired him in many ways.

Perhaps you too have people you idolize whose deaths would sadden you even though you never met them or aren't close friends?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Bardock42
I can't help how I feel, but I understand what you mean, though I disagree. I think a lot of things that don't personally involve you can be "deeply saddening", perhaps we just use different scales, your "deeply saddening" may be my "paralyzing despair" or something else.

But yeah, I understand what you mean, we feel very connected to celebrities now, even though we don't know them personally. But it makes sense, people works and lives speak to us, musicians, authors make us feel connected to them, that is part of the power they have. Steve Jobs, through years of close exposure through the media, spoke to me, and I admired him in many ways.

Perhaps you too have people you idolize whose deaths would sadden you even though you never met them or aren't close friends? Outside of the cast of television shows I like, I couldn't care less about any celebrity. If I don't know the person, their life or death means nothing to me. I'd only care about the TV actors cuz their deaths would leave gaping holes in the shows' character rosters. But even then, I'd be far more concerned with the direction the show takes from that point on more than I would the actor's death.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kinda funny how a billionaire dies of cancer at 56, but there are drug-addled homeless men still alive and older than that.

It just shows that money can't buy most precious things, such as time and health.

R.I.P Steve.

queeq
Too bad he didn't have more time to enjoy his pension...

Bardock42
Originally posted by queeq
Too bad he didn't have more time to enjoy his pension...

I think working is what he enjoyed. It seems very much so that he only stepped down because he knew he was going to die soon.

ADarksideJedi
I would think that they would find out they need him before a year is even gone.

§P0oONY
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
oh man.

that was outta no where.

r.i.p. from one techie to another.

(the htc evo's still the worlds best phone though, imo.) Hahaha... came out of nowhere? He's had cancer for years.





As for the death:

I hate everything Apple has become... but I respect everything it's done.

Steve Jobs was an important man. He changed the world we live in... for the better. RIP Jobs.

RE: Blaxican
I respect Steve Jobs as a computer technician because of his genius, but as a human being, I can give less than a shit about his death, tbh. The man was an *******, a huge *******, according to the people who knew him personally. He was an egomaniac of the worst degree, had temper problems, was hyper aggressive, and was in general just a very selfish individual.

So yah. It's kind of hard for me to put him on a pedestal, despite his achievements.

§P0oONY
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I respect Steve Jobs as a computer technician because of his genius, but as a human being, I can give less than a shit about his death, tbh. The man was an *******, a huge *******, according to the people who knew him personally. He was an egomaniac of the worst degree, had temper problems, was hyper aggressive, and was in general just a very selfish individual.

So yah. It's kind of hard for me to put him on a pedestal, despite his achievements. I agree with you tbh. I didn't like the guy on a personal level. I watched this interview with him and Bill Gates. Gates came off as a nice guy.... Jobs did not.

dadudemon
"When I was 17, I read a quote that went something like: "If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you'll most certainly be right." It made an impression on me, and since then, for the past 33 years, I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself: "If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" And whenever the answer has been no for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something."

-Steve Jobs


cry

FistOfThe North

§P0oONY
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
his death came outta nowhere. i expected him to live a bit longer. not a month after his retirement from the nations most valuable company. he was also secretive as hell anyway so you just never knew. his death was a shocker, no doubt.

And how did he change the world? he was the face of a company whom introduced a few good gadgets with marketing the likes of no one else. Rewind past the iPod/Phone/Pad... Without Macintosh the computer you are sitting at would be very different. Apple computers broke the mould.

Not to mention Pixar....

And I stated in the post that you replied to that I hated what Apple have become.

diegocala
RIP good man. sad

moviezandmacs
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He'll be back in a year when Apple realizes they still need him.

We can only hope...Still, it seems unreal. He was only 56.

I heard of people submitting their thoughts and pictures to the Steve Jobs living memorial wall via [email protected]. I found a cool website remembering Steve as well. Google search PIXT Remembering Steve

inimalist

AsbestosFlaygon
He was one of the best (if not, THE best) marketers to had roamed this Earth.

I challenge you to find me a person who can market and sell millions of devices with outdated and below-par specs that other brands are offering better than Mr. Jobs did.

He revolutionized the cellphone, improving the touchscreen for phones (an innovation he deliberately stole from the Nokia 7710)
and renaming "video call" to "FaceTime" calling it their own innovation (another one he stole from Nokia's 6680).

He stole the Microsoft's source code for GUI, and claimed it was his.

He was a prick.
Nevertheless, he was a very clever prick.
To the point that even in death, he is able to market millions of subpar products in the form of the iPhone 4S.

Still, I respect him for all his so-called "contributions" in the tech world.

RIP Steve Jobs. You will be missed (by some)

YankeeWhaler
He said a long time ago, his time with Apple was the most fun he ever had, so hey if you die doing what you lovE to do, and make a few dollars doing it, by making innovative products that people enjoy, the Ipod, Ipad and Iphone; that is THE life.

Bardock42
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
He was one of the best (if not, THE best) marketers to had roamed this Earth.

I challenge you to find me a person who can market and sell millions of devices with outdated and below-par specs that other brands are offering better than Mr. Jobs did.

He revolutionized the cellphone, improving the touchscreen for phones (an innovation he deliberately stole from the Nokia 7710)
and renaming "video call" to "FaceTime" calling it their own innovation (another one he stole from Nokia's 6680).

He stole the Microsoft's source code for GUI, and claimed it was his.

He was a prick.
Nevertheless, he was a very clever prick.
To the point that even in death, he is able to market millions of subpar products in the form of the iPhone 4S.

Still, I respect him for all his so-called "contributions" in the tech world.

RIP Steve Jobs. You will be missed (by some)

The problem with "subpar" is what are you looking at? Specs? Or actual performance? Because iOS devices tend to be smooth, have little to no crashes and do what they let you do well, as well as doing quite good on many benchmarks. So, as far as performance and experience go, they do quite well. Androids and certain other OSs can obviously potentially do a lot more, but often come with certain other set backs. Really, both Android and iOS have a valid place in the market, and for many customers an iPhone is just the better choice considering their circumstances.

§P0oONY
Originally posted by Bardock42
The problem with "subpar" is what are you looking at? Specs? Or actual performance? Because iOS devices tend to be smooth, have little to no crashes and do what they let you do well, as well as doing quite good on many benchmarks. So, as far as performance and experience go, they do quite well. Androids and certain other OSs can obviously potentially do a lot more, but often come with certain other set backs. Really, both Android and iOS have a valid place in the market, and for many customers an iPhone is just the better choice considering their circumstances. For the price of a Mac you can build yourelf a fantastic PC. One that is capable of running all modern software without a care in the world, and one that is going to be very fast and crash pretty much never.

Macs are a rip off the same way Alienware computers are a ripoff. You're garunteenteed to get a decent bit of kit, but you're going to be paying way over the odds for it. It's just a fashion accessory.

This said, the Mac's operating system is great, you have to be an idiot in denial to disagree there. If it's what you want in a computer there really is no alternative. I just prefer to get more bang for my buck.

Everything said about the Mac also applies to their mobile phones.

Bardock42

§P0oONY
I reckon the Toshiba Satalite range is more than competition for the Mac Book Air, as an example that comes off the top of my head.

I have to admit I know very little about mobile phones and handheld devices... as it's not somethign I;m very intersted in.

§P0oONY

Bardock42

§P0oONY
Originally posted by Bardock42
The Sattelite's are not ultrabooks, as far as I know (Intel's marketing terms). Toshiba's ultrabook line is called "Protege". And again, like I said, they are coming up with competitor products now, they just cost as much or more than the MacBook Air for similar or less features.

That's okay, just take my word for it stick out tongue

You are comparing Apples to Oranges. Sure you can find cheaper laptops, you can find cheaper Netbooks too, but they are not what the MacBook Air offers. They offer a form factor, it's like comparing a tower PC to the iPad. Not the same category. "Form Factor"? Look at the dimensions of the 2 computers... there is not much in it.

Bardock42

§P0oONY

Bardock42

§P0oONY

Bardock42

§P0oONY

Bardock42

§P0oONY
As I said in an earlier post. The Mac OS is the olny selling point worth mentioning in regards any Apple PC. It is fantastic... I can't deny that.

I guess it depends where your priorities are. I don't begrudge any Mac user... because I myself used Leopard and Snow Leopard on a Macbook Pro for 2 years and I enjoyed every minute.

But it's impossible for me to sit here and say you get your money's worth... As Windows PCs always give you more bang for your buck if you shop around.

Bardock42
Well, I think there are more selling points. But we don't really have to go on I don't think either of us has any more arguments than we already brought.

Like you said, you think you always can get more bang for your buck with the right Windows PC, I think with certain priorities you get the best value with a Mac.

§P0oONY
I think we're more or less reaching a middle ground. For certain professions and such, Macs are second to none.

When it comes down to it. If you purchase a computer and you're satisfied with what you get for the money, that is all that really matters. The PC vs Mac debate is an old, bitter and ugly thing, and so long as you're happy with your system it's really not relevant.

My whole debate has been about the numbers... not the experience, yours has been the opposite. We have different views on what is important and neither is less valid.

At the moment, I am happy with my PCs... The give me all I want and more and at attractive price-points. Does this mean that I will never buy a Mac in the future? Simple answer: no. In an ideal world I would have the budget to own both.

Bardock42

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by Bardock42

iOS devices on the other hand are competitive and not particularly overpriced. The iPad and iPod Touch in particular, are the best in their respective category with some of the best prices. So I disagree with your assessment there.

O RLY?

You obviously don't know how ridiculously overpriced Apple's products are in Asia.

iPhone 4 32GB is worth around 2775 AED here in Dubai (approx. $760).
That's the cheapest one you can get online.
Electronic shops sell them for 2880 AED or more.
The Apple showrooms sell them for 3150 AED (that's $860!)

In the Philippines, the new iPhone 4S sells for 45,000 pesos ($1050!! LOL!)

And don't get me started with the Macs.

Bardock42
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
O RLY?

You obviously don't know how ridiculously overpriced Apple's products are in Asia.

iPhone 4 32GB is worth around 2775 AED here in Dubai (approx. $760).
That's the cheapest one you can get online.
Electronic shops sell them for 2880 AED or more.
The Apple showrooms sell them for 3150 AED (that's $860!)

In the Philippines, the new iPhone 4S sells for 45,000 pesos ($1050!! LOL!)

And don't get me started with the Macs.

I must say I don't really care how overpriced Apple products are in Asia...

How much does the Samsung Galaxy S2 cost in Dubai and the Phillipines? Just for comparison.

inimalist
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
O RLY?

You obviously don't know how ridiculously overpriced Apple's products are in Asia.

iPhone 4 32GB is worth around 2775 AED here in Dubai (approx. $760).
That's the cheapest one you can get online.
Electronic shops sell them for 2880 AED or more.
The Apple showrooms sell them for 3150 AED (that's $860!)

In the Philippines, the new iPhone 4S sells for 45,000 pesos ($1050!! LOL!)

And don't get me started with the Macs.

isn't that more of a fact that there are low cost manufacturers of PC hardware that deal almost exclusively in Asia?

What does a good Asus MB cost there? like, a real Asus

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by Bardock42
I must say I don't really care how overpriced Apple products are in Asia...

How much does the Samsung Galaxy S2 cost in Dubai and the Phillipines? Just for comparison.
I'm just sayin' what you said is false.
It may be cheap in the US, but it is NOT cheap by any means in some parts of the world.
Hence, why most people in Asia opt for cheaper brands that give them more bang-for-the-buck.
It's very rare to see people with Macs and iPods in 3rd world countries.

The Galaxy S2 is AED 2300-ish in Dubai.
In the Philippines, it was around 25,000 pesos. That was last month when I took a vacation. Prices should've dropped by now.

Originally posted by inimalist
isn't that more of a fact that there are low cost manufacturers of PC hardware that deal almost exclusively in Asia?

What does a good Asus MB cost there? like, a real Asus
I have no idea, since I don't canvass for Asus MBs.

I do know, though, that a Asus PC (made in Japan) is 2-4x cheaper (depending on the retailer) than a Mac with similar specs.
Those made in China are cheaper, like 5-6x.

Bardock42
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
I'm just sayin' what you said is false.
It may be cheap in the US, but it is NOT cheap by any means in some parts of the world.
Hence, why most people in Asia opt for cheaper brands that give them more bang-for-the-buck.
It's very rare to see people with Macs and iPods in 3rd world countries.

It's not false, though since I talked about the places where Spooony and I live. It may not be applicable everywhere (though I only have your word for that), but that wasn't essential to my point. Additionally you are talking about the iPhone, which I never denied has a bit of a premium on it, I was focusing on the iPod Touch and the iPad.


Though, doing a bit of research: Apple seems to sell it's phone for 2199AED (600 USD) in the Arabic Emirates, while they don't seem to be selling it directly in the Phillipines.

So even your initial claim seems to be completely false.

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by Bardock42

Though, doing a bit of research: Apple seems to sell it's phone for 2199AED (600 USD) in the Arabic Emirates, while they don't seem to be selling it directly in the Phillipines.

So even your initial claim seems to be completely false.
What version of the iPhone was that?
I was talking about the iPhone 4 32GB, and it is around 2770 AED.
Most shops sell it with a higher price tag.

Yes, it's true. They don't sell it directly in the Philippines. Plus, they're all sim-free. But the price is still ridiculously high compared to the US MSRP.

Mindship
Just read this about Jobs...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/steve-jobs-biography-obama_n_1022786.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk1%7C106076

"Jobs also criticized America's education system, saying it was "crippled by union work rules," noted Isaacson. "Until the teachers' unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform." Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit, that schools stay open until 6 p.m. and that they be open 11 months a year."

- "Broken"? No. Recalibrated? Definitely. But protection for the "little people" (as Leona Helmsley once referred to us 99%) is necessary.
- Hire/fire based on merit? Things like nepotism, personality clashes/boss vindictiveness, and political/budget agendas will come first.
- 6 PM? Sure, if teachers' salaries were higher so that many didn't have to work second jobs. And when do you propose they do all the work they do now at home to keep up? 9PM? Only to wake up nice and early the next morning?

Yet another example of a billionaire businessman who thought he was an educator ("I know about computers and made all this money; I must be smart enough to know about everything else!"wink

Bloomberg much before you went?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Mindship
Yet another example of a billionaire businessman who thought he was an educator Really, if you ask pretty much anyone about the education system, they'll be able to "tell you a thing or two how to fix them there schools."

Mindship
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Really, if you ask pretty much anyone about the education system, they'll be able to "tell you a thing or two how to fix them there schools." Unfortunately, the medieval attitude -- "Those who can't do, teach" -- still prevails. Just once I'd like to see one of these business mavens actually step into a teacher's shoes for a month. But they never will because that would show them how much they don't know and can't do (and "little gods" hate that).

Bardock42
Originally posted by Mindship
Just read this about Jobs...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/steve-jobs-biography-obama_n_1022786.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk1%7C106076

"Jobs also criticized America's education system, saying it was "crippled by union work rules," noted Isaacson. "Until the teachers' unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform." Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit, that schools stay open until 6 p.m. and that they be open 11 months a year."

- "Broken"? No. Recalibrated? Definitely. But protection for the "little people" (as Leona Helmsley once referred to us 99%) is necessary.
- Hire/fire based on merit? Things like nepotism, personality clashes/boss vindictiveness, and political/budget agendas will come first.
- 6 PM? Sure, if teachers' salaries were higher so that many didn't have to work second jobs. And when do you propose they do all the work they do now at home to keep up? 9PM? Only to wake up nice and early the next morning?

Yet another example of a billionaire businessman who thought he was an educator ("I know about computers and made all this money; I must be smart enough to know about everything else!"wink

Bloomberg much before you went?

To be fair, he's completely right.

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
To be fair, he's completely right.
I could not disagree more, sir (for eg reasons stated before). Bloomberg took the same approach, and the public school system is a bigger mess than ever. The latest debacle: SESIS (Special Education Student Information System): a computerized information system introduced last Spring that was not designed with reality in mind. Eg, it does not properly accommodate students with profound physical and mental disabilities; it does not have sufficient bandwidth for the sheer size of the NYC education system (eg, essential pages fail to load); and being a rigid, dot-every-i-cross-every-t-and do-it-all-in-this-exact-sequence program, it does not allow any flexibility for out-of-left-field situations (it was designed mostly to help the Dept of Education not lose Impartial Hearings, which they will still lose anyway because SESIS is slowing down productivity and letting cases go out of compliance). Eventually, it may be a good system, but it should've been thoroughly Beta tested first.

Even the Help Desk people (when you finally reach one after waiting about 2 hours) will indirectly admit the system wasn't ready to be marketed. In effect: SESIS was prematurely ejaculated into public education because of the money to be made (incidently, the parent company is under investigation for medical insurance fraud).

Again, this is only the latest debacle. And Mr. Jobs suffered from the same affliction as Bloomberg (I forget the official term): but it's basically the megalomaniacal belief that just because he -- the businessman -- knows how to make money (Praise that $$God$$), he knows how to fix everything via the business model. It simply isn't true. And I still dare any billionaire businessman to take the teaching challenge (not doubt there are many who frequent KMC and would see this).

Bardock42
But we can agree that the way you guys do it now is a gigantic pile of shit, yes?

Anyways, your first example looks very much like an issue that would arise from bureaucracy, not from a business minded approach. So you may have an valid grievance with "SESIS", but I don't understand how that is a product of Steve Jobs ideas (as expressed in this short Huffington Post excerpt).

What we can see is that the people who run education in the US usually are failing, and to a lesser degree, where it is applied, so do the business people that get the chance to try it (though we should be fair, and admit they have to deal with a gigantic mess of a bureaucratic system).

Anyways, I don't want to argue Bloomberg's policies with you (as I don't know them well, nor do I care much), but the points Steve Jobs made I mostly agree with.

Teachers should be able to be fired in a reasonable manner. There is no reason to have tenure for High School teachers, none.

Better teachers should be able to make more money, worse less, worst be able to get fired.

School should be longer, there should be less vacation and the expectations should be higher and standardized (high school students need a good foundation, not specific knowledge)

Huge Unions and the Government making deals together is an issue in almost every field, as they are both, in essence monopolies, and it completely misses individual needs.


I do agree with you that teachers make too little money, they should make way more. But only the ones worth it.

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
1. But we can agree that the way you guys do it now is a gigantic pile of shit, yes?

2. Anyways, your first example looks very much like an issue that would arise from bureaucracy, not from a business minded approach. So you may have an valid grievance with "SESIS", but I don't understand how that is a product of Steve Jobs ideas (as expressed in this short Huffington Post excerpt).

3. What we can see is that the people who run education in the US usually are failing, and to a lesser degree, where it is applied, so do the business people that get the chance to try it (though we should be fair, and admit they have to deal with a gigantic mess of a bureaucratic system).

4. Anyways, I don't want to argue Bloomberg's policies with you (as I don't know them well, nor do I care much), but the points Steve Jobs made I mostly agree with.

5. Teachers should be able to be fired in a reasonable manner. There is no reason to have tenure for High School teachers, none.

6. Better teachers should be able to make more money, worse less, worst be able to get fired.

7. School should be longer, there should be less vacation and the expectations should be higher and standardized (high school students need a good foundation, not specific knowledge)

8. Huge Unions and the Government making deals together is an issue in almost every field, as they are both, in essence monopolies, and it completely misses individual needs.

9.I do agree with you that teachers make too little money, they should make way more. But only the ones worth it.
1. It's an imperfect system because everything humans do is imperfect, especially if it's not 'respected' like, say, acting or pro sports. You get what you pay for (and even then...).

2. It was to illustrate, in general, that if the business model is applied, then the business model bottom line will dominate.

3. Meh. Humans. And so far, the only example I know of has made things worse, not better.

4. Everything looks good in writing.

5. Agreed: teachers should be fired in a reasonable manner. This is what tenure guarantees: due process (Not a "job for life," which seems to be, BTW, many peoples' impression).

6. Agreed. But unfortunately, merit will take back seat to other factors.

7. I admit some bias here, since I like my vacation time (though it and other benefits do compensate for the mediocre pay). But if you're going to raise standards, provide the resources for achieving them. Don't set the school system up for failure (as Bloomberg did, until a judge told him to back off).

8. Big Business is not immune to this. Again, if you apply the business model, the business bottom line will dominate the agenda, and in this case, it would Not be education. And as I also said earlier, the unions today are hardly innocent bystanders. Like any system set up by humans, if it's in place long enough, eventually abuse and corruption set in. The unions definitely do need to be "upgraded," not dismantled, otherwise, the common folk's voice is drowned out by the 1%.

9. Indeed.

Bottom line: yes, the education system needs to be fixed (and unions needs to be recalibrated). But I have yet to see any evidence that the business model is the way to do it. IMO, a big help would be for society to regard teachers like rock stars (not, "Those who can't do, teach"wink. This would certainly get kids' attention and imply the value of what teachers do way better than any lip service.

Bardock42
As far as I understand tenure means that you can not be fired, for life, without "just cause", "just cause" in most cases meaning "only if you raped 3+ kids, and not necessarily even then".

Now, I don't think teachers should have tenure at all, I think they should be fireable in a reasonable time frame when the need dictates, but even if we don't agree on that, don't we agree that at least "performance" should be an admissible factor? If you are a completely ineffective teacher shouldn't you get fired?

Especially considering the immense importance of a teachers work, isn't it essential that the bad teachers, who do such huge damage, can be fired?

Conversely, shouldn't great teachers, who do a magnificent job, and are essential for the furtherance of society, be rewarded based on that merit they bring to the table?

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
As far as I understand tenure means that you can not be fired, for life, without "just cause", "just cause" in most cases meaning "only if you raped 3+ kids, and not necessarily even then".

Now, I don't think teachers should have tenure at all, I think they should be fireable in a reasonable time frame when the need dictates, but even if we don't agree on that, don't we agree that at least "performance" should be an admissible factor? If you are a completely ineffective teacher shouldn't you get fired?

Especially considering the immense importance of a teachers work, isn't it essential that the bad teachers, who do such huge damage, can be fired?

Conversely, shouldn't great teachers, who do a magnificent job, and are essential for the furtherance of society, be rewarded based on that merit they bring to the table? Conceptually, ideally, "in writing," you and I are really on the same page. Yes...
1. Ineffective teachers should be dismissed in a reasonable time frame.
2. Effective teachers should be rewarded.

The difference is that I've been in the field for several years and have witnessed real abuses of power from administration, which is why I feel union protection is a must (though it should be realistic). And if reform is to come, it should not be from businessmen whose bottom line is entirely different from education. Children are not bottles of Coke, passive containers into which knowledge is simply poured, and this complicates what is meant by a teacher being effective. The current zeitgeist in education reform is that teachers are entirely responsible for the outcome of their efforts, and children (especially by high school age) pick this up and draw the conclusion that, if they fail, it's always the teachers fault. Result: they don't do their part in acquiring an education because society has provided a ready-made scapegoat.

My 2 cents worth: You want real education reform? Start by identifying all responsible parties: students, teachers and parents. You want to determine teacher effectiveness? Have a teacher reviewed by peers, as well as the principal, keeping in mind the responsibilities of the student and parent.

Bardock42
I think we are on the same page there too.

However contractual negotiations are an easy thing to work on and improve. Changing the zeitgeist, well that's a much more complicated task (which is not to say it shouldn't be attempted).

Though to come back to my initial point. We have one tiny blurb of Steve Jobs opinion on the subject, it's far too little to draw any conclusions of his actual positions, he may have been completely in line with your thoughts on it...or he may have blamed everything on teachers, who knows...

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
Though to come back to my initial point. We have one tiny blurb of Steve Jobs opinion on the subject, it's far too little to draw any conclusions of his actual positions, he may have been completely in line with your thoughts on it...or he may have blamed everything on teachers, who knows... Well, at least he didn't run for mayor.

Bardock42
You really, really don't like Bloomberg, do you?

Mindship
Originally posted by Bardock42
You really, really don't like Bloomberg, do you? The First Emperor of NYC? The guy who once voted against changing term limits until he wanted to be mayor for a 3rd term, then changed them back? He who has been described by his own supporters as aloof, arrogant and out of touch with the common man? The guy who set public schools up for failure by ignoring contractual terms and breaking the law until a judge literally told him to stop? The guy who ignored mass protests by parents who wanted him to help the schools first, not shut them down by default? The guy who shoved in charter schools, taking resources away from public schools, while charters picked the best students, not the ones needing the most help? The mayor who repeatedly lied about student academic gains, who changed statistical analysis to make it look like gains have occurred, gains which were not verified by state and national studies? The man who said new teachers are better than experienced ones? The guy who okayed SESIS? The mayor who -- against the advice of educators -- hired a chancellor who had never attended a public school and sends her own kids to private schools in another state, and who was so out of touch with parents she made fun of them and who lasted only 3 months on the job because she was so unqualified (basically the poster child for the ill-fated mindset that a 'good manager can manage anything')? The man who kept changing the educational bureaucracy again and again (during mid-year, yet) so that no one knows who to call when problems arise? The man...

*sigh*

That Bloomberg? Yeah. I not be too fond o' him. And at this point, most New Yorkers aren't, especially when it comes to how he handled education.

The only thing good about him is, he'll be gone by Jan 2013. Then I can wear my 'I Survived the Mein Fuhrer Bloomberg Years' t-shirt without fear of vindictive response.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-latCHxLOTQQ/TVXJWp2oMPI/AAAAAAAABZk/DrUP8gfxPKE/s1600/emperor%2B%2BBloomberg.jpg

NeoGills
R.I.P Steve Jobs!
we really miss you sad , you made the great phone ever...

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