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Cripple vs Blind Guy! Neither will be either in this fight though.

Round one: The Six Paths of Pain vs Healthy Itachi.



Round two: Fully-healthy Nagato vs Healthy Itachi.


PIS is off and combatants are fighting to the best you can argue them as.

Before getting onto the thread, I like to know exactly what Healthy Itachi is? Is he regular Itachi with more stamina? Cause we've never really seen a healthy Itachi except for the Edo Tensei one who didn't seem very different at all.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Except there is no way to tell when he's going to cast it until he does.

So all of the Pein's will be standing there blind with their eyes closed to avoid Itachi's tsukoyomi... leaving them completely defenseless against all the other shit he can do instead.

Unless he monologues it or begins closing his left eye, which is an indication that he is about to use an MS technique.

That would only be true if the Paths of Pain where in a stance like this. Which I can't imagine why they would be because they usually don't take such a stance in combat as it renders one of their abilities useless.

That all said:

Round 1: Assuming Itachi knows basically nothing about the Pains abilities, it shouldn't take him long to realize that real Pain is not among them. However, he has no way of knowing where Nagato would be so the pains would eventually over power him.

Round 2: Would be much closer. The aforementioned defense against Tsukuyomi would be hard to pull of here. But since Nagato can use this I give him the win.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Before getting onto the thread, I like to know exactly what Healthy Itachi is? Is he regular Itachi with more stamina? Cause we've never really seen a healthy Itachi except for the Edo Tensei one who didn't seem very different at all.

He isn't dying and nearly blind like he was when he fought Sasuke.


Edo Tensei version may be an acceptable version if you want.

Sure. ET Itachi without possible immortality.

Agreed. No immortality for Itachi. But likewise if Itachi defeats the Paths of Pain it'll be a victory for him. The fights over at that point anyway imo.

Pretty much. Then again, if Itachi attacks the real Nagato and who shoots him with a rod and takes control over him, Nagato wins right?

God. Itachi as a Path of Pain. Awesome.

Nah. Itachi just needs to beat the Paths to win.

If Itachi were to attack the real Nagato, he would beat the Paths. vin

Which is why he needs to beat the Paths to win. I don't want Itachi cheatcoding his way to victory by ganking Nagato in round 1.

lol fine fine.

Personally if I hadn't of voted for Aizen I'd back Itachi in this one.

He wins rounds 1 and 2.


First round...can avoid the genjutsus by favor of multiple bodies, summons, etc. Ama has no sting: it's absorbed.


Second round: more difficult but he still wins easily. He can still absorb ama. His summons can take the genjutsu attacks. Plus, Nagato is "deadlier" in that form or what ever Naruto said about it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally if I hadn't of voted for Aizen I'd back Itachi in this one.

Do it loser.

Do what?

I am the thread starter and so must remain completely unbiased in the thread. Otherwise I might get tempted to say.... change it to Cripple Nagato.

The paths stomp. One on one, I think it could go either way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cripple vs Blind Guy! Neither will be either in this fight though.

Round one: The Six Paths of Pain vs Healthy Itachi.



Round two: Fully-healthy Nagato vs Healthy Itachi.


PIS is off and combatants are fighting to the best you can argue them as.


1) 6 Paths of Pain.

2) Itachi.

EDIT: PIS off? Itachi uses Shisui's Kotoamatsukami on Deva Realm, and then works with it to pwn the other 5 Paths in Round one. awesome

Unless of course Nagato just stops feeding chakra into Deva Path.

Though Itachi vs the other Five Paths would probably end in an Itachi victory.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1) 6 Paths of Pain.

2) Itachi.

EDIT: PIS off? Itachi uses Shisui's Kotoamatsukami on Deva Realm, and then works with it to pwn the other 5 Paths in Round one. awesome
And how would he do that? It was programmed to activate when shown Itachi's MS. So it would not work on Nagato. And as said, Nagato could just pull the plug. + the bodies do not even minds of their own so i'm unclear how that would even work.

The combined defense of Preta and Deva does make single-Nagato really hard to hurt, and just by himself Itachi likely couldn't blow up the gravity orb. So I'd still go with Nagato there, though Itachi does have a shot at victory.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Unless of course Nagato just stops feeding chakra into Deva Path.

Though Itachi vs the other Five Paths would probably end in an Itachi victory.

Yes, Deva is the real threat of the paths.

I think the other 5 would still win. And hey, deva path wasn't needed to take Jiraiya who Itachi is evidently afraid of.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Itachi was afraid of him. He just really did not want to fight him. Given that he was a good guy and a pacifist all along, it makes sense why he wouldn't.

But Itachi vs Jiraiya is a whole other can of worms.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think the other 5 would still win. And hey, deva path wasn't needed to take Jiraiya who Itachi is evidently afraid of.

True, but more of Itachi's abilities would leave bodies unrevivable. Jiraiya killed three, but didn't know about the revive thing. If those 3 had stayed dead, the other two non-Devas would've been quite beatable.

I doubt it. Jiraiya couldn't deal with three without the Genjutsu, and that Genjutsu could only work once. So I think another 2 would have been quite a problem for him. At the very least it would have been a mighty fight.

And anyway there's quite a difference between beating three, then two, versus beating five at once. The later is way harder especially since the bodies work as a seamless team to cover each other.

Itachi's Susano'o is what gives him an advantage Jiraiya lacks. No defense to really use against the Paths. Susano'o would give Itachi time to analyze the Paths powers quickly and efficiently.

Granted that still doesn't mean he could stop Deva. Or the combined efforts of the others maybe. But I do think he'd win the latter conflict.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Unless of course Nagato just stops feeding chakra into Deva Path.

Though Itachi vs the other Five Paths would probably end in an Itachi victory.

Still a win-win scenario for Itachi if he lands Kotoamatsukami on Deva. He either gains the help of a S class Path, or he forces Nagato to stop using it, and is left to deal with 5 A-A+ paths, a fight he would have much higher chances in.

Plus there's always kunai attacks to the eyes of the Paths and summons. awesome

Originally posted by King Kandy
And how would he do that? It was programmed to activate when shown Itachi's MS. So it would not work on Nagato. And as said, Nagato could just pull the plug. + the bodies do not even minds of their own so i'm unclear how that would even work.

He programmed it to react to his MS, just before transferring it to Naruto. It stands to reason that if it was available, he would be able to use it against anyone he wanted to when he had it for himself, and Bee points this out.

Yet Genjutsu still worked on the Paths. Mindless creatures like the bugs the Aburame clan use are apparently immune to genjutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
The combined defense of Preta and Deva does make single-Nagato really hard to hurt, and just by himself Itachi likely couldn't blow up the gravity orb. So I'd still go with Nagato there, though Itachi does have a shot at victory.



Yes, Deva is the real threat of the paths.

Through ninjutsu, yes. However, he has no counters against Itachi's higher level genjutsu. Even low level genjutsu would likely stop Nagato for a second or two, and Itachi can cast those without the need for eye contact.

There is a very simple solution to genjutsu. Don't look at it. Summon birdie and let it guide you from above while the Paths close their eyes. Wouldn't take Itachi long to figure out how to win but once he takes his eyes of the Paths, he'd be in real trouble.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
There is a very simple solution to genjutsu. Don't look at it. Summon birdie and let it guide you from above while the Paths close their eyes. Wouldn't take Itachi long to figure out how to win but once he takes his eyes of the Paths, he'd be in real trouble.

Visual genjutsu at least. There's sound-based genjutsu, and genjutsu that just takes affect if you're in the vicinity.

That said, I wish Itachi knew Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu. Would have worked wonders against the Paths.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Visual genjutsu at least. There's sound-based genjutsu, and genjutsu that just takes affect if you're in the vicinity.

That said, I wish Itachi knew Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu. Would have worked wonders against the Paths.

People forget about this^^

Itachi is fast, very fast, and a critical thinker... he could just point at any of them, use a low level genjutsu, and since all of there visions are linked that would for sure stop pain for some time... during that he could come up with some sort of plan to take out the deva path, possibly two of the paths since he is fast enough to do so.

Almost anyone else vs pain would lose, but pains weakness is one of, if not itachi's greatest strength.

I'd expect a visual genjutsu to affect just the one targeted. They may share images, but I don't think they'd pass on the genjutsu chakra.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Visual genjutsu at least. There's sound-based genjutsu, and genjutsu that just takes affect if you're in the vicinity.

That said, I wish Itachi knew Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu. Would have worked wonders against the Paths.


All of the genjutsu Itachi has shown is visual, I believe.

Yeah, all of them are. Not that it matters cause visual genjutsu is pretty nasty. That said, even if Nagato were to get caught by it, he can break out by channeling his chakra differently through the Paths.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd expect a visual genjutsu to affect just the one targeted. They may share images, but I don't think they'd pass on the genjutsu chakra.




All of the genjutsu Itachi has shown is visual, I believe.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c540/14.html

Specifics aren't given, so you could argue that Itachi is using his crow to land a genjutsu, but I don't think that is it.

Then there's Itachi casting a genjutsu just by pointing.

nagato wins both scenarios eaisly. all he has to do is shinra tenei itachi into a mountain or absorb his susanoo shield and steal his soul

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c540/14.html

Specifics aren't given, so you could argue that Itachi is using his crow to land a genjutsu, but I don't think that is it.

Then there's Itachi casting a genjutsu just by pointing.

But you can't make an argument like that because, as you said, specifics aren't given. He could be using crows or something else and the genjutsu would still be visual. Not enough to make a claim for him having a sound or AoE based genjutsu.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But you can't make an argument like that because, as you said, specifics aren't given. He could be using crows or something else and the genjutsu would still be visual. Not enough to make a claim for him having a sound or AoE based genjutsu.

Only one crow is confirmed to cast genjutsu afaik. The same crow that has Shisui's Sharingan/MS. And the sensors would likely be able to detect one of Itachi's crows going around trapping people in a genjutsu, or one of his crow clones.

But fair enough, I did say no specifics. Still, we know that range isn't a problem for Itachi's genjutsus, and he himself does not need to use the Sharingan itself to land a genjutsu.

Then he could ver well be setting up talismans in locations capable of hypnotizing foes and it would still be visual.

Indeed. But we know two things: All his known genjutsu are sight based and tightly focused on one target, be they sharingan jutsu or not.

Ao's words do not imply that he would set up an area with talismans beforehand.

Key word being 'known'. He's seen Kurenai's genjutsu, so it would be a simple matter to replicate something like that. vin

Ao's words don't imply anything except Itachi is skilled. We know that.

We can't argue with the unknown. :O

Sidenote: Neph, how come the Nagato option isn't Nagato Uzumaki?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ao's words don't imply anything except Itachi is skilled. We know that.

We can't argue with the unknown. :O

Sidenote: Neph, how come the Nagato option isn't Nagato Uzumaki?

They imply he's better than anyone else when it comes to genjutsu.

Oh come on. If he can cast a genjutsu when someone looks at his finger, he can likely cast an AoE genjutsu using just handseals, like those ninja at the Chuunin Exam fights.

Looks too much like Naruto Uzumaki.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They imply he's better than anyone else when it comes to genjutsu.

Oh come on. If he can cast a genjutsu when someone looks at his finger, he can likely cast an AoE genjutsu using just handseals, like those ninja at the Chuunin Exam fights.

Looks too much like Naruto Uzumaki.

Obviously.

And if Minato can use leet jutsu like FTG and Rasengan, he probably has some other neat jutsu. But I don't know what they are and thus can't use them in a debate.

Nagato does? Not really.

He does have other neat jutsu, such as summoning jutsus, and a couple of S/T ones. vin

Take out the 'ru' in Naruto, put in 'ga', and we have ourselves a Nagato.

Itachi would win. I've already explained why. In the following posts. Link 1, link 2.

In the first battle against the six paths he'd have an extremely easy time since they're visually connected. So unlike Shima's and Fukasaku's toad confrontation chant--which relied on hearing, which wasn't shared by all the bodies--it will affect all the bodies at the same time effectively killing them.

Itachi will also win the second battle because his abilities doesn't require hand-seals. So he'd be able to strike first and either Tsukuyomi or Susanoo's sword of Totsuka will be enough.

I've never seen Itachi actually kill anything with Tsukuyomi. Or at least, I don't recall him ever using it to do so. Also, the Paths can be shut down whenever Nagato wants. So if Itachi appears to be using genjutsu, turn them off.

Or do what I suggest and use a summon(the Bird works best) let it observe the battle and let the Pains fight eyes closed.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I've never seen Itachi actually kill anything with Tsukuyomi. Or at least, I don't recall him ever using it to do so.
We've never seen him use it with intent to kill either. Kakashi and Kisame made it somewhat clear that Itachi spared Kakashi.

http://i.imgur.com/EpQrn.png


Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Also, the Paths can be shut down whenever Nagato wants. So if Itachi appears to be using genjutsu, turn them off.
The influence of illusionary techniques don't wear off just because you break eye-contact.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or do what I suggest and use a summon(the Bird works best) let it observe the battle and let the Pains fight eyes closed.
Nagato surely didn't fought Itahci with his eyes closed as an impure resurrection. Besides, the six paths of pain's fighting style rely on their share vision.

Originally posted by Astner
The influence of illusionary techniques don't wear off just because you break eye-contact.

It simply does not work if you don't have eye contact.


Closing your eyes works just fine.


Else Chiyo direct them all to do so against Itachi?

Originally posted by dadudemon
It simply does not work if you don't have eye contact.

Closing your eyes works just fine.

Else Chiyo direct them all to do so against Itachi?
http://northland-gaming.com/styles/minecraft/xenforo/smilies/facepalm.gif

No, that's not what Chiyo said.

http://i.imgur.com/KYfj6.png

She then went on explaining why that was the case and my panel captures are--like always--linked to the online manga for context so you can read it through yourself.

Finally Kakashi corrected her by explaining that Tsukuyomi is different.

http://i.imgur.com/zf2QU.png

When Naruto got caught in the illusion he recalled Jiraiya's explanation of how to break out of illusions.

http://i.imgur.com/V4ZAT.png

So no, Nagato has absolutely no means of countering basic visual illusions yet alone abilities like Tsukuyomi.

Originally posted by Astner
http://northland-gaming.com/styles/minecraft/xenforo/smilies/facepalm.gif

No, that's not what Chiyo said.

http://i.imgur.com/KYfj6.png

She then went on explaining why that was the case and my panel captures are--like always--linked to the online manga for context so you can read it through yourself.

Finally Kakashi corrected her by explaining that Tsukuyomi is different.

http://i.imgur.com/zf2QU.png

When Naruto got caught in the illusion he recalled Jiraiya's explanation of how to break out of illusions.

http://i.imgur.com/V4ZAT.png

So no, Nagato has absolutely no means of countering basic visual illusions yet alone abilities like Tsukuyomi.



facepalm

It's like you have a selective memory.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-262-3/naruto/chapter-257.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-262-4/naruto/chapter-257.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-262-6/naruto/chapter-257.html

The last one is Chiyo directly telling them to avoid the Sharingan Eyes but getting behind the Sharingan user to get into the Sharingan's blind spot.

The idea of avoiding eye contact still holds true against his Tsukuyomi. It's just that once hit, the idea of getting behind the Sharingan user and hitting them does not good to save both players: the one hit with the tsukuyomi will still be greatly debilitated.



However, it was certainly a nice try on your part, Astner, at doing what I will now deem as directly lying.


You avoided key pages before an after the scans you posted up that proved me right. You went out of your way to lie. You should be reported for that. (but I won't do it)

Actually, I'm pretty sure Astners right.

Originally posted by dadudemon
facepalm

It's like you have a selective memory.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-262-3/naruto/chapter-257.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-262-4/naruto/chapter-257.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-262-6/naruto/chapter-257.html

The last one is Chiyo directly telling them to avoid the Sharingan Eyes but getting behind the Sharingan user to get into the Sharingan's blind spot.

The idea of avoiding eye contact still holds true against his Tsukuyomi. It's just that once hit, the idea of getting behind the Sharingan user and hitting them does not good to save both players: the one hit with the tsukuyomi will still be greatly debilitated.
You're moving the goalpost? Your argument was that if you closed your eyes the illusion would be dispelled! Remember?

"It simply does not work if you don't have eye contact." - dadudemon

What Chiyo actually explained was that they couldn't be caught in Itachi's illusions if they didn't look into his eyes. There's nothing about the illusion being dispelled if you break eye-contact.

Originally posted by dadudemon
However, it was certainly a nice try on your part, Astner, at doing what I will now deem as directly lying.
You can interpret it any way you want, I think the pieces of evidence I provided are more than satisfactory to prove my case and I expect people to be smart enough to make their own judgements.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You avoided key pages before an after the scans you posted up that proved me right. You went out of your way to lie. You should be reported for that. (but I won't do it)
First off I didn't avoid anything as I've already proven. Secondly, even if I were to lie there is no rule against lying.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, I'm pretty sure Astners right.

Did you even read the links I put up?


Consider that Gai actually employed that method against Kakashi and even got a strike against Kisame should more than settle the entire discussion. There's no need for Chiyo to back me up by saying a second person can get out of sight of the eyes to avoid the genjutsu.

Originally posted by Astner
You're moving the goalpost? Your argument was that if you closed your eyes the illusion would be dispelled! Remember?

"It simply does not work if you don't have eye contact." - dadudemon

What Chiyo actually explained was that they couldn't be caught in Itachi's illusions if they didn't look into his eyes. There's nothing about the illusion being dispelled if you break eye-contact.


You can interpret it any way you want, I think the evidence I provided are more than satisfactory to prove my case and I expect people to be smart enough to make their own judgements.


First off I didn't avoid anything as I've already proven. Secondly, even if I were there is no rule against lying.

I didn't read any of your post because everything you have to say other than, "I was lying simply to be right and I selected certain panels to try and make myself right...for that, I apologize" is a waste of space and time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Did you even read the links I put up?
I did. In fact I read them before I linked them to my screen caps.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't read any of your post because everything you have to say other than, "I was lying simply to be right and I selected certain panels to try and make myself right...for that, I apologize" is a waste of space and time.
So you refuse to argue because you think I'm being short-sighted? I've got one word for you friend, projection.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Did you even read the links I put up?


Consider that Gai actually employed that method against Kakashi and even got a strike against Kisame should more than settle the entire discussion. There's no need for Chiyo to back me up by saying a second person can get out of sight of the eyes to avoid the genjutsu.

Yes I did. If I'm following correctly you're saying that all Nagato has to do is get the Pain bodies to break eye contact if Itachi hits one of them with a Tsukiyomi. Thats what Astners arguing against at any rate. However, as Kakashi says the effects of Tsukiyomi are instantaneous and can't be cancelled. And we know that if a Genjutsu hits one of the Pain bodies all of them are affected.

Now if all you're saying is that to counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi all they have to do is avoid eye contact in the first place you're right, but I mean, jesus christ Itachi would kick the shit out of Pain if he had to fight like that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes I did. If I'm following correctly you're saying that all Nagato has to do is get the Pain bodies to break eye contact if Itachi hits one of them with a Tsukiyomi. Thats what Astners arguing against at any rate. However, as Kakashi says the effects of Tsukiyomi are instantaneous and can't be cancelled. And we know that if a Genjutsu hits one of the Pain bodies all of them are affected.

No, not break eye contact.


Avoid it from the beginning like Gai did and that worked splendidly.



What I was saying is that Chiyo agreed and even had a way to fight an eye-based genjutsu user in a team of two (have one always avoid eye contact and get in the Sharingan user's blind spot to break it).


Originally posted by Nephthys
Now if all you're saying is that to counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi all they have to do is avoid eye contact in the first place you're right, but I mean, jesus christ Itachi would kick the shit out of Pain if he had to fight like that.

See, I knew you agreed with me. 313

You let him poison your mind. estahuh

Originally posted by Astner
I did. In fact I read them before I linked them to my screen caps.

Which proves my point about you lying.


Originally posted by Astner
So you refuse to argue because you think I'm being short-sighted? I've got one word for you friend, projection.

No, that's not it at all. Here's why:


1. You deliberately lied (as proven by what you just said about having read the previous pages).

2. You went out of your way to accomplish this lie through selective panel screen caps.

3. I handed your ass to you, thoroughly, in my counter reply.

4. Gai already proved you wrong and me right before you made your post and that point was made already in this thread.

5. You get in these modes that even if proved wrong in the most direct way possible (and it's undeniable), you still will not admit fault.

No one lied. You two were just arguing about different things and getting confused.


So Sayeth The Thread Starter!

Originally posted by Nephthys
No one lied. You two were just arguing about different things and getting confused.


So Sayeth The Thread Starter!

Then so it is.

Yes, it is.


Now suck my cock.

It's not that dadudemon didn't know what I was talking about--in fact I made it unambiguously clear--he purposefully misinterpreted it after he realized that illusions are something you get caught in.

See, if any of the six paths are caught in the visual illusion all of them will be trapped. Since there is no out that can help them get out of it, Itachi can freely slit their throats one-by-one. Regardless, let's get back to the actual argument.

You're assuming that Nagato has enough intel on the sharingan to avoid looking into Itachi's eyes.

Furthermore, Itachi can cast visual illusions by raising his finger. There is no safe way for Nagato to fight Itachi and Nagato's fighting style is based on his vision.

Even if he manages to avoid all illusionary techniques Itachi still has Susanoo.

This is two one-sided battles and Nagato has no chance in either of them.

Originally posted by Astner
It's not that dadudemon didn't know what I was talking about--in fact I made it unambiguously clear--he purposefully misinterpreted it after he realized that illusions are something you get caught in.

Wrong: you didn't know what my point was. I still maintain that you were just plain lying to be right.

Originally posted by Astner
See, if any of the six paths are caught in the visual illusion all of them will be trapped. Since there is no out that can help them get out of it, Itachi can freely slit their throats one-by-one. Regardless, let's get back to the actual argument..

Prove that all of them will be trapped if it specifically affects the brain of the path and has no path back to the real pain, then prove that it bounces off the real pain and then infects all of the other pain bodies, and then prove that Itachi doesn't have to use 6 times the amount of chakra (which it is very intensive to use, to begin with, much less spamming it six times against six bodies that know not to look into his eyes, which negate the entire point of using it to begin with), please.

I'll wait for your reply.


Originally posted by Astner
You're assuming that Nagato has enough intel on the sharingan to avoid looking into Itachi's eyes.

You're assuming that Nagato doesn't have enough information on the sharingan to avoid looking into Itachi's eyes when he was:

1. The de facto leader of Akatsuki.
2. Recruited Itachi.
3. Employed Itachi on missions for Akatsuki.
4. Itachi used tsukuyomi once or twice since being with Akatsuki.

That's a pretty big assumption on your part...and far more likely to be incorrect especially if you assume that Nagato knows nothing about avoiding eye jutsus when he was trained for years by a Sanin.

Originally posted by Astner
Furthermore, Itachi can cast visual illusions by raising his finger. There is no safe way for Nagato to fight Itachi and Nagato's fighting style is based on his vision.

I guess you missed the whole part of why this particular line of reasoning fails?

The point is to avoid Tsukuyomi, not genjutsu, period.


There's plenty of other bodies for regular genjutsus.

Originally posted by Astner
Even if he manages to avoid all illusionary techniques Itachi still has Susanoo.

And Nagato still has Chibaku Tensei which Itachi has no way to counter.

Originally posted by Astner
This is two one-sided battles and Nagato has no chance in either of them.

Sure, if you would like to ignore everything one side has to bring to the table.

FYI: that's what is generally called a "fanboy".

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong: you didn't know what my point was. I still maintain that you were just plain lying to be right.
No, I knew what your points were, both prior and post the change of them. I've already pointed it out.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Prove that all of them will be trapped if it specifically affects the brain of the path and has no path back to the real pain.
They share the same vision and mind. The reason the toad confrontation chant didn't work was because they didn't share the same hearing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
then prove that it bounces off the real pain and then infects all of the other pain bodies,
Bounces off?

Originally posted by dadudemon
and then prove that Itachi doesn't have to use 6 times the amount of chakra (which it is very intensive to use, to begin with, much less spamming it six times against six bodies that know not to look into his eyes, which negate the entire point of using it to begin with), please.
It's one mind. The bodies are dead puppets whom's eyes Nagato can see through.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're assuming that Nagato doesn't have enough information on the sharingan to avoid looking into Itachi's eyes when he was:

1. The de facto leader of Akatsuki.
2. Recruited Itachi.
3. Employed Itachi on missions for Akatsuki.
4. Itachi used tsukuyomi once or twice since being with Akatsuki.
He wasn't the leader, Tobi was.
Most likely on Madara's accord.
Most likely through Tobi's orders.
First on Kakashi and then on Sasuke.


Originally posted by dadudemon
That's a pretty big assumption on your part...and far more likely to be incorrect especially if you assume that Nagato knows nothing about avoiding eye jutsus when he was trained for years by a Sanin.
Jiraiya trained them for years? No. Jiraiya simply trained them so that they could fend for themselves. Besides Jiraiya didn't avoid eye-contact with Itachi when he saved Naruto.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I guess you missed the whole part of why this particular line of reasoning fails?

The point is to avoid Tsukuyomi, not genjutsu, period.

There's plenty of other bodies for regular genjutsus.
No, first and foremost the point is to avoid visual illusion period. Because the six paths of pain are visually connected.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And Nagato still has Chibaku Tensei which Itachi has no way to counter.
Based on what? Itachi definitely knew how to counter it when Nagato used it on him. You could argue that he needed Naruto's spiraling shuriken and B's beast bomb in order to overcome it completely but there's no evidence for that.

Let's do a logical recap: X + Y + Z > T {does not make} T > Z

We know for a fact however that Itachi could one-shot Nagato with the sword of Totsuka, because he did.

On top off all this we still have the author agreeing that the Mangekyō sharingan is the most powerful eye-technique as opposed to the Rinnegan which was simply addressed as the most noble.

I feel I need to address something: By feats, the Rinnegan is so far above MS it is laughable. EMS might be a different story but we don't know yet.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I feel I need to address something: By feats, the Rinnegan is so far above MS it is laughable. EMS might be a different story but we don't know yet.
What are you talking about? The mangekyō sharingan unlocks abilities like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo. While they're not as wide-scale as say shinra tensei and chibaku tensei they're certainly more lethal.

B fell before Sasuke's newly activated Amatersu like a fly and was barely able to escape and B has replicated comparable wide-range destruction feats to pain's.

And Susanoo seals the body and spirit of whomever touches the blade.

It's quality over quantity.

Originally posted by Astner
No, I knew what your points were, both prior and post the change of them. I've already pointed it out.

No you didn't, failed to address them properly, and you deliberately lied to be right.


Originally posted by Astner
They share the same vision and mind. The reason the toad confrontation chant didn't work was because they didn't share the same hearing.

They share the same mind, however.

So your point fails completely.


Nagato can see, hear, feel, touch...everything that his bodies can.

Else he have a dialogue with Naruto from a distance?

Hmmmm?


Now, let's see you really try to pull a response to this out of your ass.


I can already help you: Nagato is a master expert at lip reading, right?


I have a counter for that too (as silly as it is): Naruto's head was down when he was staked to the ground and he had quite a few words with Nagato.


So Nagato can also hear what his bodies are doing.

Originally posted by Astner
Bounces off?

Yes.



Genjutsu works by affecting the neocortex/frontal lobe/Prosencephalon of the target.

The target is not Nagato, it's the pain body.


Somehow, this has to magically transfer from that mind, bounce off of Nagato, and then transfer to the other 5 bodies.


Since this is not even how genjutsu works, we do not have to even have a discussion about genjutsu affecting all the bodies at once because of "shared vision".

Keep in mind that not even the sensor types could track Nagato's "thoughts" back to the bodies: it was impossible to trace.

Yet, magically, chakra sent to a particular bodybrain is somehow going to target Nagato's mind when Itachi will not even be able to tellw here that body is.


Originally posted by Astner
It's one mind. The bodies are dead puppets whom's eyes Nagato can see through.

Fail. Already explained why.

Originally posted by Astner

1. He wasn't the leader, Tobi was.
2. Most likely on Madara's accord.
3. Most likely through Tobi's orders.
4. First on Kakashi and then on Sasuke.


1. It's shorter to use an actual list than to type all of that out, btw. And I am very glad you pointed out that Tobi was the real leader behind the curtains...but you may want to read this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto

2. You mean Tobi's, right? But this somehow magically "negates" what I said? Hint: it doesn't. In fact, it's irrelevant to Nagato actually running Akatsuki. Sure, Tobi was giving the general direction (they call this settin the strategic direction in the business world), but Nagato was giving the day to day orders. Consider Madara the share holder and Nagato the CEO.

3. Same as #2. However, you must have intimate knowledge of your squad in order to successfully: pair them with someone and maximize their utility in a mission.

4. Possibly others other than those two. We just don't know about them.

Regardless, this more than proves the futility of your position.


Originally posted by Astner
Jiraiya trained them for years? No. Jiraiya simply trained them so that they could fend for themselves. Besides Jiraiya didn't avoid eye-contact with Itachi when he saved Naruto.

Jiraiya trained them for years, yes. My guess is no longer than 3 but greater than 1.

Prove otherwise.

Jiraiya did not need too because he is...you know... a sanin.


Originally posted by Astner
No, first and foremost the point is to avoid visual illusion period. Because the six paths of pain are visually connected.

This point fails before you even made it. I've explained why, already...and it was explained before you came into this thread.


Originally posted by Astner
Based on what? Itachi definitely knew how to counter it when Nagato used it on him. You could argue that he needed Naruto's spiraling shuriken and B's beast bomb in order to overcome it completely but there's no evidence for that.

Let's do a logical recap: X + Y + Z > T {does not make} T > Z

We know for a fact however that Itachi could one-shot Nagato with the sword of Totsuka, because he did.

On top off all this we still have the author agreeing that the Mangekyō sharingan is the most powerful eye-technique as opposed to the Rinnegan which was simply addressed as the most noble.

Go back and read that chapter (you acknowledge it in your post).

Figure out why Itachi, fighting Pain alone, cannot counter Chibaku Tensei.


When you have figured out why, get back to me.



Here's another hint: Itachi could not have possibly come close to successfully sealing Nagato, even in the single form, withOUT the help of B and Naruto as distractions.

Well for starters, I'd rather have the one that let me keep my eye sight.

Only the sword of Totsuka can do that. Only reason Itachi has that ability is he put it on his sword. Sasuke's Susano'o lacked it.

As for Tsukuyomi...it's strong I suppose but it drains chakra like mad. And I don't recall it ever being used on multiple targets at once, meaning it is a strictly one on one deal.

Rinnegan on the other had allows one to use all 6 elements, meanings you can effectively master whatever jutsu you want. Allows you to have nasty abilities like chakra draining, stealing souls(and information) summons, and massively powerful attacks. Not to mention the fact that one can simply separate their abilities among 7 bodies(one per each), thus enabling them to fight together and confuse the enemy.

To me, it's a no brainer. 3 good techniques against 3 also good techniques plus tons of other powers.

Originally posted by Astner
What are you talking about? The mangekyō sharingan unlocks abilities like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo. While they're not as wide-scale as say shinra tensei and chibaku tensei they're certainly more lethal.

B fell before Sasuke's newly activated Amatersu like a fly and was barely able to escape and B has replicated comparable wide-range destruction feats to pain's.

And Susanoo seals the body and spirit of whomever touches the blade.

It's quality over quantity.

No, they are NOT more lethal. That's is, as said, quite laughable.

Not only does Itachi use Amaterasu on a single person, Tsukuyomi but simple function only works on one person.


Susanoo is easily countered by a black hole. Oh, right...Nagato has one.





And, it's not quality over quantity.


Because Nagato has both.

Originally posted by Astner
What are you talking about? The mangekyō sharingan unlocks abilities like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo. While they're not as wide-scale as say shinra tensei and chibaku tensei they're certainly more lethal.

B fell before Sasuke's newly activated Amatersu like a fly and was barely able to escape and B has replicated comparable wide-range destruction feats to pain's.

And Susanoo seals the body and spirit of whomever touches the blade.

It's quality over quantity.
The match up is important. Amaterasu is useless against the absorbing path. Tsukuyomi is especially ineffective against the 6-paths formation because it can just close whatever eyes he targets while continuing to watch with the other ones. Susanoo is Itachi's best chance here and its no surprise that technique is what gave him the win in their most recent confrontation. But if not for the help he got, chibaku would have ended Itachi.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The match up is important. Amaterasu is useless against the absorbing path. Tsukuyomi is especially ineffective against the 6-paths formation because it can just close whatever eyes he targets while continuing to watch with the other ones. Susanoo is Itachi's best chance here and its no surprise that technique is what gave him the win in their most recent confrontation. But if not for the help he got, chibaku would have ended Itachi.

Yeah, those are all pretty much my ideas, as well.













So, the single Nagato form WITH a summon will work against the Tsukuyomi? So does that settle it? Nagato wins both matches?

Nagato is his superior.

Nagato wins in both imo...