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Both characters at their peak. The setting is a training room with stuff to throw around.




Checking how many things have changed in my absence.

Sidious, but Caedus makes him work for it.

Pretty much what Ares said. Caedus is one of the strongest Sith ever, but Palpatine has the crown,. and way more knowledge on Sith abilities

Caedus is way overrated. He isn't on Sidious' level at all imo.

Caedus stomps.

3 hands... that's tough to beat.

Caedus, but Palps make him work for it

I'm willing to side with Caedus here.

yeah, just based on the third hand actually. that is tough to contend with. that is such a horrible birth defect though. Kinda funny. he had three hands, and he was banging tenal ka who only had one.

If they are both in their primes, Sidious wins.

Make it RotS Sidious, and I think Caedus may win the majority.

Originally posted by truejedi
Kinda funny. he had three hands, and he was banging tenal ka who only had one.

Certainly that third hand... came in handy

Z.
I'm willing to side with Caedus here.

Entertain me. excellent

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/60953-Shadow%20of%20Death/953/109/applejack_notsureifserious_display.png

You guys think Caedus can challenge DE Sidious? Really?

Given that Palpatine, even circa Dark Empire, is more of a scholar and sorcerer than combatant, I'm willing to be convinced that Caedus is the more conditioned, experienced, and possibly gifted fighter. Though Palpatine is undoubtedly more powerful {i.e. more learned and skilled in the ways of the Force} than Caedus, that might not be decisive.

Conditioning has little to do with fights between high-level Force wielders who can simply supliment themselves with the Force, and Palpatine has fought extremely experienced and gifted fighters before and had it mean naught.

DE Sids kicks his shit in imo.

Neph
Conditioning has little to do with fights between high-level Force wielders who can simply supliment themselves with the Force,

I wasn't referring to physical conditioning, but rather the possibility that Caedus has likely been conditioned {i.e. trained} to fight to a greater extent than Sidious, who conditioned himself to largely act through intermediaries and pawns.



With the exception of Yoda and Luke, I would argue that none of them are opponents quite like Caedus. Mace Windu was extraordinarily deadly in combat, but Caedus is probably much more powerful in the Force {certainly the evidence indicates superiority for Caedus}; Galen Marek was extraordinarily powerful in the Force, but his combat skills weren't up to par with his raw strength; Windu's Jedi Masters might have been among the most skilled Jedi in the order, but Palpatine's Force connection was seemingly lightyears beyond theirs.

In this case, Sidious would be fighting someone whose strength in the Force is prodigious {perhaps, even, on par with his own}, whose skills in combat are extraordinary {holding his own against battle raged!Luke Skywalker, shaming Kyle Katarn and company in single combat, etc.}, who possesses unique talents/powers/techniques {mastery of the shatterpoint charism (which Sidious should be very leary of), the ability to produce illusions realistic enough to fool Luke, the ability to cut off others from the Force, etc.}, and whose threshold for pain is easily on par with the Emperor's or Vader's own.



Sidious might win, but I don't see him roflstomping Caedus unless he unleashes a certain hyperspace wormhole in Caedus's direction.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I wasn't referring to physical conditioning, but rather the possibility that Caedus has likely been conditioned {i.e. trained} to fight to a greater extent than Sidious, who conditioned himself to largely act through intermediaries and pawns.

Being better in the Force is superior to being better in skill.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
With the exception of Yoda and Luke, I would argue that none of them are opponents quite like Caedus. Mace Windu was extraordinarily deadly in combat, but Caedus is probably much more powerful in the Force {certainly the evidence indicates superiority for Caedus};

Really? Could you give some explanation for this? I personally don't recall Caedus doing anything that impressive with the Force outside of his Super-Saiyan moment.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Galen Marek was extraordinarily powerful in the Force, but his combat skills weren't up to par with his raw strength;

Really? Because I recall Galens lightsaber skills being termed as 'almost perfect.' And he certainly seemed skilled in the use of the Force in combat. But then again it is rather hard for him to match up to his own power, vast as it is.

(I'd favor Galen in a thread versus Caedus personally)

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Windu's Jedi Masters might have been among the most skilled Jedi in the order, but Palpatine's Force connection was seemingly lightyears beyond theirs.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
In this case, Sidious would be fighting someone whose strength in the Force is prodigious {perhaps, even, on par with his own},

I find that doubtful. Havn't you argued that DE Sidious is on par with Luke? And yet you're arguing that the man who Luke schooled on a regular basis is a match for him?Am I missing something or do you just enjoy seeing me defend Sidious?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
whose skills in combat are extraordinary {holding his own against battle raged!Luke Skywalker,

That fight reeked of PIS. He also almost lost against a battle raged Mara.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
shaming Kyle Katarn and company in single combat, etc.},

His most respectable feat imo. But Katarn is of undefinable strength and he spent the majority of the fight protecting the KNights who'd accompanied him iirc.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
who possesses unique talents/powers/techniques {mastery of the shatterpoint charism (which Sidious should be very leary of),

Really? Windu was completely unable to find Sidious' shatterpoint when they dueled up unil Skywalker walked in. Other than his trust in Anakin he couldn't find an exploitable weakness.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
the ability to produce illusions realistic enough to fool Luke,

I don't recall this. In fact, as I recall Luke produced an illusion of himself realistic to fool Caedus while talking to him and pinning him his chair with the Force (Luke wasn't even in the room). And then fooled him again with an entire fleet of illusionary ships.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
the ability to cut off others from the Force, etc.},

I seriously doubt he'd be able to affect Sidius in the same manner as he did a 13 year old child.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
and whose threshold for pain is easily on par with the Emperor's or Vader's own.

Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Sidious might win, but I don't see him roflstomping Caedus unless he unleashes a certain hyperspace wormhole in Caedus's direction.


http://i52.tinypic.com/111rnl0.png

h/o plz



{It means 'hold on, please'. Damn, son!}

Wut?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wut?

You didn't mistaken it for "hoe please"?

Thats actually exactly what I thought it meant. haermm


BTW is it noticable that I'm a wee bit biased against Caedus?

no, o master of subtlety

God, I really don't want to get in a protracted argument anymore.....

Then conceed.

no

It's just an issue of effort, not foundation. For example,







^ Each of these things are rather easily dealt with.


While this principle is espoused by Bane/Kas'im, it is not always the case: consider the 55-gallon drum of whoopass that Dooku dropped on poor Anakin on Geonosis, despite the latter's vastly superior strength in the Force.
The text actually indicates that Palpatine's trust in Anakin was "the largest" of the fractures/shatterpoints visible to Windu, not the only.
This occured in The Dark Nest Trilogy, in which Caedus used illusions to manipulate Luke into thinking the wounded Mara died; Caedus indicated that one's present mental state is what impacts one's vulnerability to illusions {hence why Luke was able to dupe the deranged Caedus}.


It's just meh. I guess I'm kinda bored with it?

{And by it, I mean debating in general, not you.}

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir








^ Each of these things are rather easily dealt with.


While this principle is espoused by Bane/Kas'im, it is not always the case: consider the 55-gallon drum of whoopass that Dooku dropped on poor Anakin on Geonosis, despite the latter's vastly superior strength in the Force.

You believe Anakin was stronger than Dooku in AOTC? Lol, no. Anakin has extraordinary potential but he's a child in AOTC. He's nowhere near Dookus level of mastery in the Force and he isn't close to utilising his potential.



Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The text actually indicates that Palpatine's trust in Anakin was "the largest" of the fractures/shatterpoints visible to Windu, not the only.

Correct, I had forgotten that. But the fact is that it took Mace the entire duel to capitalise on a shatterpoint (to our knowldge). I doubt Caedus will last that long. And again, no Anakin present to grant him victory.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
This occured in The Dark Nest Trilogy, in which Caedus used illusions to manipulate Luke into thinking the wounded Mara died; Caedus indicated that one's present mental state is what impacts one's vulnerability to illusions {hence why Luke was able to dupe the deranged Caedus}.


Luke at the time was relatively unskilled in illusions if thats the case, almost killing himself with the strain of a small one. Later he proves himself far his superior in that regard, and that Caedus isn't exactly as skilled as you make him out to be.

Plus Caedus at his strongest point was deranged, so thats a self-defeating argument.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's just meh. I guess I'm kinda bored with it?

{And by it, I mean debating in general, not you.}


Hey man, I'm cool with you disagreeing but don't start a fight you don't wanna see through.

Neph
You believe Anakin was stronger than Dooku in AOTC? Lol, no.

Actually, he was; midichlorian counts don't raise with age. Anakin was stronger than Dooku or Palpatine or Yoda in the Force from birth.



There is a fundamental difference between Force mastery and Force strength. The former is a product of skill, which you disregarded, the latter is a latent power.



k.



Actually, by this time, Luke had concealed an entire planet in an illusion courtesy of the Fallanassi technique. If you're referring to his replication of the Jade Shadow, it was more of an issue that the sudden surge of power was channeling more energy than his body was condirioned to endure.









haermm

How so?

All I said is that he was capable of fooling Luke with illusions {which he did}.



haermm

How so?

This is about Palpatine versus Caedus, not Luke versus Caedus. The argument would be self-defeating if it involved Palpatine trying to manipulate Caedus via illusion.

re: Luke's difficulty with an illusion during TDK

Or it might have been because using illusions to create life like replications of shit is harder than concealing it?

idk

I've got a pounding headache and women make me irritable so you tell me?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Actually, he was; midichlorian counts don't raise with age. Anakin was stronger than Dooku or Palpatine or Yoda in the Force from birth.

Again I reach for my Applejack picture. I trust you know the difference between potential Force Strength and actualised Force strength. Anakin has never been stronger than the above individuals save for in moments of clarity. At other times he was unable to overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Besides which we know that factors other than simply midichlorian count factor into a persons strength with the Force. Such as anger, Force mastery or moments of connection to the Force, as you yourself said: 'If Yoda's words in The Empire Strikes Back are to be believed {and according to Ush, they are and you dare not disagree}, then there are no limits to what a Force user can do-- except for those limits that he or she imposes upon themselves.'

Look at Bane. He was not always as strong as he was. There were times when he was pathetic in terms of ability and strength due to his lack of mastery of the Force and himself.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
There is a fundamental difference between Force mastery and Force strength. The former is a product of skill, which you disregarded, the latter is a latent power.

The key word is latent there Gideon. I susect that you're leading me in anothe rgame of fvcking semantics here so let me cut to the chase: Kas'im says that the Force is the key to victory. If you cannot use the Force as well as your opponent, despite your potential being greater, you are at a disadvantage. Potential/latent power does not equate to actualised power.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
k.

Yes k.


Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Actually, by this time, Luke had concealed an entire planet in an illusion courtesy of the Fallanassi technique. If you're referring to his replication of the Jade Shadow, it was more of an issue that the sudden surge of power was channeling more energy than his body was condirioned to endure.



So he can conceal and entire planet but a small shuttle is suddenly 'more energy than his body was condirioned to endure'? Puh-lease.


Edit: Your above post is likely correct.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir


Good to see you've got your will to fight back.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
haermm

How so?

All I said is that he was capable of fooling Luke with illusions {which he did}.

Which I replied was not as impressive as you were implying. I mean, you were listing it as a point in his favor, were you not?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
haermm

How so?

This is about Palpatine versus Caedus, not Luke versus Caedus. The argument would be self-defeating if it involved Palpatine trying to manipulate Caedus via illusion.

No, your argument defeats itself by pointing out that a person is easily fooled by illusions when deranged, as Caedus is.

will address l8r

Oh? Do I not bore you my sweet?

No, you don't. But protracted argumentz do.

Sidious tears Ceadus a new *******, what is this.

Yes.

Nah bro

I promise that I'll have something by noon 5 on saturday.


Damn social life.

I know what you mean.

Thank God I don't have one.

Sidious stomps.

Sidious, in a good fight, if he choses to duel, or in a bad one, if he abuses his force powers.