Battle of Helms Deep vs. Harry Potter Deathly Hallows Part 2

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quanchi112
Imagine the 10,000 or so Uruk-hai along with all the Naz-gul and all who fight in defense of Helms Deep are unified now as Voldemort's forces who stormed Hogwarts and those who defended Hogwarts are all trying to conquer Helm's Deep.

Can Voldemort and the Harry Potter gang successfully conquer this unified, massive Lord of the Rings force ? Go ahead and weigh in. This stuff matters and stuff.

Lord Lucien
This stuff is important in that the Death Eaters will win.

Korto Vos
Who is defending and who is attacking?

The Silent Hero
Magic > Sword and shields. Voldemort's army could probably win without wizards too.

Voldemort himself engages the Nazgul after shooting down their winged steeds.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by The Silent Hero
Magic > Sword and shields. Voldemort's army could probably win without wizards too.

Voldemort himself engages the Nazgul after shooting down their winged steeds.

Umm no...Voldemort's army would get mutilated if they didn't have wizards...

quanchi112
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Who is defending and who is attacking? Every hero involved in Helms deep's defense. Every wizard who attacked Hogwarts along with every wizard on top of the giants, spiders, and dementors along with all those who defended it are present. I am also including all the Nazgul as well.

Lord Lucien
The Death Eaters stand back and bring the canyon walls down upon the fort.

Korto Vos
Lord of the Rings:

Commanders:

- Gandalf the White
- Saruman
- Witch King of Angmar
- Three Hunters (Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli)
- Theoden, Eomer, & Gamling
- Haldir

Strength:

* 2000 Rohirrim
* Host of Huorn
* 200 Elves of Lothlorien
* 300 Helms Deep Soldiers
* 100 Rohan peasants

* 10,000 Uruk-Hai Infantry (Berserkers, Tanks, Crossbowmen, Suicide Bombers, & Soldiers)
* Nazgul

Total Numbers:

- 10 Commanders
- 12,600 Troops + Host of Huorn


vs.

Harry Potter force that is at a maximum of 1000 wizard/witches and other beasts and entities.


I don't feel like providing arguments right now, but I imagine a gigantic bloodbath in which Lord of the Rings emerges victorious with great losses.

ares834
Doubtful... All of the Wizards will be capable of killing at least an average of 13 LotR army men and some will be capable of far more.

quanchi112
@Korto

Not that is makes a huge difference but Saruman isn't in this thread due to him not being on the battlefield at Helms Deep. I also didn't think it was fair to include him and not Dumbledore so I gave the Lotr side the Nazgul instead.

steverules_2
When Gandalf the white dies he comes back as Gandalf the tartan, he's got a whole Dulux colour chart at his disposal

Lord Lucien
I am genuinely at a loss as to how Harry Potter magic is going to be countered here. Several Death Eaters wreck a whole bridge. 1,000 of them, including the most powerful upper echelons and Voldemort himself are present. There is nothing that can be done to stop them. I'll say it again: blow up the walls, blow up the fort, bring the canyon down on the ruins and survivors. Minimal casualties for the Death Eaters, if any at all.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by ares834
Doubtful... All of the Wizards will be capable of killing at least an average of 13 LotR army men and some will be capable of far more.



I am imagining HP Army is attacking, and LOTR forces are defending.


Nazgul Demoralization: The Nine, on top of their Fell Beasts, can depress many of the wizards/witches with their horrifying shrieks, thereby rendering a lot of them ineffective for a short period of time.


Torrential Arrow-fall: The firing rate and amount of projectiles unleashed upon the HP Army is staggering. One arrow/bolt/missile will be enough to kill a witch/wizard, since robes provide minimal protection. Elven archers and the Helms Deep forces will be raining arrows. The Rohirrim cavalry can fire arrows from horseback. The Uruk-Hai has hundreds of crossbowmen. The Nazgul can throw down humongous pieces of debris.

Rohirrim Cavalry Charge : In the Battle of Pelennor Fields, we see the Rohirrim cavalry being able to accelerate and charge across a large distance with incredible speed, while being hailed by waves of Orc arrows, and still keeping the vast majority of its forces intact.

Like in TTT, the cavalry can flank the HP army by moving down the valley. Gandalf on Shadowfax can unleash Blinding Light to immobilize the closest opposition, and the riders can rip through the HP Army.

Uruk-Hai Fodder : You have 10,000 Uruk-Hai whose greatest strength is this situation are their sheer numbers. I envision the Uruks on the ground guarding the Deeping Wall. As the HP Army pushes forward against the Uruk-Hai, bringing them down, it also has to contend with a hurricane of arrows, Rohirrim cavalry charge, and Nazgul flying above.

Uruk-Hai Suicide Bombers : Well, the Uruk-Hai can plant charges across the field before the Deeping Wall, and have berserkers lit the blasting powders, causing massive explosions that will kill large chunks of the HP Army.

Weakness in Close Combat : Ignoring the beasts and other entities, the wizards/witches themselves are vulnerable in hand-to-hand close combat. Wizarding duels are ranged battles, not performed in extremely close proximity. In addition, the wizards/witches are not clad in battle armor. As a result, if they find themselves swarmed by LOTR forces, they will likely get cut down.

Thus, even after bringing down the Deeping Wall, if they manage to do so, the HP Army will find themselves engaging LOTR forces in close quarters in the Hornburg fortress.


Like I said, LOTR will have a massive amount of casualties, but they will prevail after an arduous, bloody affair.

Nephthys
Fiendfyre.



/thread.

Korto Vos
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the Huorn as well...

Lord Lucien
I don't see how an en masse 'Protego' is going to fail to stop any of those attacks. And I very much doubt the Nazgul's effectiveness here. Their one good move is demoralization, but considering the ability the ordinary Men of Gondor and Rohan had in keeping it all together, I doubt an army of evil wizards are going to fare worse. Especially the higher ranks.

Fiendfyre, Protego, Bombarda Maxima---massive casualties can be inflicted before anyone even comes close to one another, and should the LotR fellows manage to get close somehow... Avada Kedavra, Stupefy, any curse, hex, or jinx that renders a bipedal organism immobile/dead. The Winged Beasts are just really big targets, the Huorn are just a massive wall flaming Fiendyre, and the Uruks, Elves, and Rohirrim are all fodder. And should any of the wizards start apparating in their weird solid smoke thing---the defenders are right and truly f*cked even more than before.

Nephthys
Its not as if giant magical creatures are something wizards have never seen. They're not going to brown their collective pants (robes?) at a bunch of flying....... whatever those things are.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't see how an en masse 'Protego' is going to fail to stop any of those attacks.

I don't see how continuous volleys of hundreds of arrows flying from all directions wouldn't be effective.



"ordinary" Men of Gondor? You have to be kidding me- these soldiers are hardy men who have a lifetime of battle in border wars against Mordor. If they are that perturbed by the Nazgul, the wizards will be even more demoralized.




Arrows/bolts/missiles/debris- all deadly aerial attacks that are fired from range?

And repeating my previous argument, the Rohirrim cavalry, with Gandalf on Shadowfax, should have most of its forces intact before colliding into the bulk of the HP Army.



Sure, but close quarter combat highly disfavors the wizards/witches. They aren't trained, unlike LOTR troops, in engaging in hand to hand battle and constantly looking for enemies coming in from any direction. A single sword strike, from anywhere, would kill a wizard/witch.



* Except, y'know, if they were "just really big targets," it's surprising how nobody for Gondor or Rohan are able to bring them down during Pelennor Fields. The Nazgul's disabling shrieks, and speed of the Fell Beasts, will guarantee their survival.

* The Huorn will just add to the chaos. The arrow-fall may cause retreats into the so-called trees, where the Huorn will ambush the opposition. And considering how very, very few wizards master Fiendfyre, such a spell would be as devastating for the HP Army.

* The Uruk-Hai are fodder- but by the time all 10,000 of them are dead, a majority of the wizards/witches will be dead as well.




No, they are just f*cking themselves by doing that; if they find themselves surrounded by big guys with swords, they may take some guys with them, but they are definitely dying.

Nephthys
LotR vs Harry Potter is the new Star Wars vs Harry Potter.


Except this time I'm on the HP side....... mmm

Korto Vos
I'm not on any side; it's just in debates that I've participated in involved me arguing against Harry Potter.

I can't help it if Yoda > Voldemort, a Balrog would pose a severe challenge, Gandalf > Voldemort, or 13000 LOTR forces would defeat less than a 1000 HP wizards/witches/beasts.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Korto Vos
I don't see how continuous volleys of hundreds of arrows flying from all directions wouldn't be effective. Remember that huge shield the Hogwarts teachers put over the school that incinerated wizards at the slightest touch, and how it took a barrage of magical spells to bring it down? Well I'm seeing something akin to that, except the wooden arrow shafts and metal heads are going the way of the DH II pawns---vaporized.



Originally posted by Korto Vos
"ordinary" Men of Gondor? You have to be kidding me- these soldiers are hardy men who have a lifetime of battle in border wars against Mordor. If they are that perturbed by the Nazgul, the wizards will be even more demoralized. The Nine descend upon the wizards, getting their invisible vocal chords primed for a scream, aaannnddd--


"Silencio!"




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Arrows/bolts/missiles/debris- all deadly aerial attacks that are fired from range?

And repeating my previous argument, the Rohirrim cavalry, with Gandalf on Shadowfax, should have most of its forces intact before colliding into the bulk of the HP Army. 1.) See my first response in this post. The shield charm x1000 is gonna be sweeeeeeet.

and 2.) Remember the Firestorm spell that Dumbledore did? Or Fiendfyre that freakin' Crabbe pulled? That x1000 + horses = AK-47's! horse meat for everyone!


Originally posted by Korto Vos
Sure, but close quarter combat highly disfavors the wizards/witches. They aren't trained, unlike LOTR troops, in engaging in hand to hand battle and constantly looking for enemies coming in from any direction. A single sword strike, from anywhere, would kill a wizard/witch. I said "get close somehow", I said nothing about hand-to-hand combat. There won't be any. A barrage of lethal/debilitating spells will sweep away anyone that comes close. This is, of course, assuming that anyone within the fort survives the first round of Fiendfyre and collapsing canyon walls on their heads.



Originally posted by Korto Vos
* Except, y'know, if they were "just really big targets," it's surprising how nobody for Gondor or Rohan are able to bring them down during Pelennor Fields. The Nazgul's disabling shrieks, and speed of the Fell Beasts, will guarantee their survival.

* The Huorn will just add to the chaos. The arrow-fall may cause retreats into the so-called trees, where the Huorn will ambush the opposition. And considering how very, very few wizards master Fiendfyre, such a spell would be as devastating for the HP Army.

* The Uruk-Hai are fodder- but by the time all 10,000 of them are dead, a majority of the wizards/witches will be dead as well. 1.) I was never impressed by the speed of the Winged Beasts, just their size. Silencio, Immobulus, Avada Kedavra.

2.) The arrow 'incineration upon the shield charm' will cause laughing and mirth, and maybe a couple of the jackasses hanging the back will be picked up by the trees. Perhaps one of them will be retarded, 17 year old Vincent Crabbe. Perhaps he'll remember that wood burns. And that even he knows Fiendfyre. And perhaps the hundreds of other evil witches and wizards will remember that they possess powers that none of their enemies here can counter in the slightest. Like Incendio.

3.) By the time all 10,000 Uruk-Hai are dead, the closest Uruk corpse will still be like 50 feet from Voldemort's feet. Most of the rest will be buried beneath a pile of rubble and more corpses.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
No, they are just f*cking themselves by doing that; if they find themselves surrounded by big guys with swords, they may take some guys with them, but they are definitely dying. Except, y'know... all those magical spells that no LotR being has any defense against what so ever.


Very, very few wizards will fall in this. If any. Some of the may get bruised ribs from laughing s hard at their own overwhelming success.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Remember that huge shield the Hogwarts teachers put over the school that incinerated wizards at the slightest touch, and how it took a barrage of magical spells to bring it down? Well I'm seeing something akin to that, except the wooden arrow shafts and metal heads are going the way of the DH II pawns---vaporized.

I don't see what this would accomplish, unless you're suggesting the entire HP army will stand still and not press forward, remaining with the confines of a giant convenient bubble.




I can make up my own BS as well:

There are Nine of them, engaging in a continued shrieking chorus that constantly demoralizes/immobilizes the wizards/witches. Thereby preventing them from uttering a single spell. AKA they all die from arrows while clutching their ears.





Okay, well while the wizards/witches decide to kumbaya in their shield, the LOTR forces can just party inside the Hornburg, seeing how the HP Army is going to stand still. Drinks on Theoden.




Oh yeah, let us have the wizards/witches KAMIKAZE doing that!




Which, of course, requires the HP Army to press forward, leaving behind their gigantic shield.

Assuming they don't, once the first 1000 Uruk-Hai die, LOTR forces will just push everyone back into the Hornburg and into the Glittering Caves. Good luck having anything happening then!

And please, considering how tough Fiendfyre is to control, it would be bloody madness for them to start unleashing that. They would kill themselves.




Oh yeah, considering how none of the 16,000+ Gondorian or Rohirrim soldiers are able to bring them down, they must be really slow.



Sure, the Huorn die, but they'll take some with them.




That's probably what they wish would be happening once they see everyone around them dead with a dozen arrows sticking out of them :P

The Silent Hero
Voldemort casts a gigantic shield around his forces like the one McGonigal did. There is nothing the ME army has that can break through this.

Next he raises his wand and brings the walls of Helms Deep crashing down. The ME is now disoriented and vulnerable. He also quickly sends killing spells after the Nazgul before their dread-cry has too much effect. He does all this from a safe distance from arrows.

While this is happening the THOUSAND wizards constantly shower the ME army with spells constantly, from so far away they won't be able to fire back. Impedimenta, AK, Stupedy, Incendio, etc. They do volleys in rotations, ranks stepping outside of the shield to fire then stepping back in to safety, and repeating. This goes on non-stop. The giants and werewolves go forward to engage the Uruks to delay them even more.

Hit Gandalf with Crucio. Fire Confundus charms into the crowds of infantry so they start fighting each other. Imperius curse on the Rohirrim generals. Petrificus Totalus on the Nazgul steeds while they're flying, that's the end of them. Petrify any other important people too. Incedio the Huorn.

There's so much the wizards can do from a safe distance, they don't have to fight close quarters. And there's so many of them some wizards can be healers. Some can be scouts and snipers. A few can Apparate behind their lines, shoot chaos and fire into their rear, then Disapparate to safety. When the leaders of Middle Earth start dying off indiscriminately the rest of the army will rout.

There is no way the Wizards can lose.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Korto Vos
I don't see what this would accomplish, unless you're suggesting the entire HP army will stand still and not press forward, remaining with the confines of a giant convenient bubble. Key word being convenient. And yeah, they'll do that when the outcome equals quick and easy victory.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
I can make up my own BS as well:

There are Nine of them, engaging in a continued shrieking chorus that constantly demoralizes/immobilizes the wizards/witches. Thereby preventing them from uttering a single spell. AKA they all die from arrows while clutching their ears. And once again, without making anything up--this is a simple spell that exists--Silencio. Or perhaps, Immobulus. x1000.

Actually, especially Immobulus. 12 year old Hermione froze an entire room full of flying pixies. I think a few Death Eaters can hit the Nazgul. Or Silencio, whatever. If the Nazgul's scream was like an instant paralysis attack, or instant death, etc., I'd be inclined towards them. But all we ever see is extreme discomfort and pain, but unfortunately nothing crippling enough to make me believe that not a single Death Eater or wizard will point their wand and easily silence/immobilize the Nazgul or kill their Beast. And frankly, they are still the greatest threat here.



Originally posted by Korto Vos
Okay, well while the wizards/witches decide to kumbaya in their shield, the LOTR forces can just party inside the Hornburg, seeing how the HP Army is going to stand still. Drinks on Theoden. Let Theoden buy the first round, they'll never have time to pour it while the canyon walls are crumbling around them and burying everybody within the fortress. 1000 wizards, all firing Bombarda or Reducto td the fortress and the canyon. There won't be a Shire, Pippin a defense.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Oh yeah, let us have the wizards/witches KAMIKAZE doing that! They don't need to die, they only need to apparate. And alright, given Voldemort's propensity for sacrificing pawns, the outer flanks full of lesser wizards can be killed. That'll take out the trees, the cavalry, and any lucky fellow that happened to get close enough. Happy?




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Which, of course, requires the HP Army to press forward, leaving behind their gigantic shield.

Assuming they don't, once the first 1000 Uruk-Hai die, LOTR forces will just push everyone back into the Hornburg and into the Glittering Caves. Good luck having anything happening then!

And please, considering how tough Fiendfyre is to control, it would be bloody madness for them to start unleashing that. They would kill themselves. Good, I'm glad your acknowledging the existence of the Shield that no LotR being can get through without being instantly obliterated. I thought you had been ignoring it.


...

How will they be pushing them back? How are they going to get through the wizards' shields and attacks? Wait a minute, gimme a sec...



Originally posted by Korto Vos
Oh yeah, considering how none of the 16,000+ Gondorian or Rohirrim soldiers are able to bring them down, they must be really slow.



Sure, the Huorn die, but they'll take some with them.




That's probably what they wish would be happening once they see everyone around them dead with a dozen arrows sticking out of them :P I'm just gonna re-sum up again, hopefully it'll cover everything here, bear with me:


The wizards don't need to advance. Those shields are going up right away. Anyone that gets close gets blasted by about a dozen spells at once. The Nazgul (and perhaps the entire cavalry) can be immobilized very, very quickly. A 12 year old girl cast one spell that took out a whole room of flying magical creatures. An entire army of evil wizards, including the Death Eaters and Voldemort will have no trouble doing the same to everyone here, including the Nazgul. The Nazgul provide the greatest threat with their screams, but frankly, their screech isn't impressive enough to instantly paralyze everyone here (without targeting their own side as well, obviously). They'll be silenced, immobilized, and they and their Beasts will be vaporized when they hit the shield. The arrows, infantry, and cavalry will face the same shield and die. Or they'll hang back. The Huorn to the rear may take some dozens out, but enough wands turning around and firing Incendio or Immobulus (as it was used on the Whomping Willow by Lupin) will do them in. Then there's always Firestorm. And if anyone's feeling a little suicidal and daring, there's Fiendfyre. Should anything or anyone somehow, magically (see what I did there?) get through, every single wizard can apparate. And those that can do the solid-smoke thing, will continue to bombard everything else with spells. And to top it off, Reducto and Bombarda will absolutely level the fortress and the canyon, burying anyone left in it. Some wizards may die, but it'll be through someone's zealous use of Fiendfyre, which frankly would be hella overkill against the trees, but would be very useful when fired forward at the fortress by Voldemort or one of the upper Death Eaters.



That's it. There's no more to tell. I don't want you to start calling me biased and the new RJ, because I'm not. The LotR movies are far superior to Harry Potter, as are the characters. But I just can not conceive of a way that 1,000 freaking dark wizards are going to fall to swords and arrows, I'm sorry. I know you hate Potter, but this match is horribly in favour of them.

Turr_Phennir
Well said.



Except for this.

Nephthys
Most of the HP movies suck. The first few do at least. And the 6th. I personally hated every single one I saw, but if we're going objectively I can only say for certain that half objectively suck ass.

The LotR movies define the term epic. Sam carrying Frodo up Mount Doom had me in tears.

Its not even fair comparing the two. Its a bareknuckle champion vs a cripple.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Key word being convenient. And yeah, they'll do that when the outcome equals quick and easy victory.

Hmm, how are you envisioning this battle playing out?

I imagine the Elven archers and Helms Deep forces in battle stations (bows and arrows ready) on the Deeping Wall and Hornburg. The Uruk-Hai on the ground guarding the keep- pikes in the front lines, bowmen/crossbowmen in the next lines, and then bulk infantry with the suicide bombers, berserkers, and tanks scattered among them. The Nine Nazgul on top of the Fell Beasts above making vulture rounds above. Gandalf and the Rohirrim in the side valley ready to charge down.

And in front of the Uruk-Hai lie the HP Army, ready to lay siege upon the Deep. Behind them are the line of trees that are of course the Huorn.

I imagine a countdown of ten seconds where nobody makes a move, and then FIGHT!

Uruk-Hai charge forward, Uruks fire arrows/bolts, Elves/Helms Deep defenders fire arrows, Nazgul swoop down shrieking, Huorn advance, and Gandalf & Rohirrim charge down the valley.

So you're saying at the start of battle, the HP Army will all unanimously construct a giant shield. I just find this starting LOTR surge too quick and deadly for the wizards/witches to spend time devising a magical barrier. Rather, I see an offensive push, which is why I am arguing my line of thought.

Now, if we were arguing LOTR siege, and the HP Army DEFENDING Helms Deep, then yes, I agree HP will have a comprehensive victory.




Yes, even if they aren't instant paralyzing screams, the extreme discomfort and pain is enough to make the hardy men of Gondor all cower in fear and clutch their ears, unable to fight. Because the Nine had opposition within Minas Tirith, a massive cityscraper, and the Pelennor, they were spread out and their effectiveness was limited.

In the confines of the Deeping Coomb, the Nine Nazgul can act in deadly unison, with the demoralizing shrieks starting right as the battle begins. This is my rationale as to why they won't be struck by an Immobulus or Silencio any time soon- as soon as they come within range, the shrieks will prevent spellcasting (as the wizards/witches will be holding their ears or be completely consumed in fear).

I mean, I'm just going by the fact that thousands of Rohirrim and Gondorian soldiers had the chance to shoot down the Fell Beast, but absolutely none of them were able to. My logic? As soon as they probably had the opportunity to aim and shoot once the beasts swooped down, the Nazgul shrieks caused them to lower their weapons and more or less act disabled.





Well, the wizards/witches have to mow down the Uruks and Rohirrim Cavalry before the Deeping Wall can be breached.

And 1000 is an arbitrary convenient number I made up to comprise the total number of the HP Army, including those suits of armor, giants, acromantula, and house-elves. The Death Eaters themselves, with any Imperiused wizards, probably number less than 130. The Hogwarts staff and students, Hogsmeade residents, Dumbledore's Army, and Order of the Phoenix probably number at what...300 tops? So in actuality, there are probably like 500 wizards/witches MAX at play here.




Hmm...I want to know your battle logistics before I can comment on this.





Oh no, I've definitely acknowledged its existence. I completely forgot about that avenue till you brought it forward. Nevertheless, I question its overall efficacy.


...



No, I meant, once they see the first 100 Uruk-Hai getting vaporized by the barrier, the arrows/bolts not piercing through, and seeing spells obliterating the 900 rest, all of the LOTR forces will retreat into the Hornburg fortress and Glittering Caves.

They'll have a thousand Uruks acting as fodder while everybody else retreats into the fortress and the extensive network of caverns. This will be used to draw out the HP Army from the protection of the magical shield.




It's a nice summary, and I completely understand what you are saying.

Everything is dependent on the shield. Does it have to be made once the battle has begun or is it already produced pre-fighting?




No, I'm not going to call you biased. You are making sound arguments, and I expect as much from a respectable poster like yourself.

There aren't 1000 Death Eaters. There are 100.

And whoa, I don't hate Harry Potter. Didn't I say earlier that I take no sides?

Turr_Phennir
KV
Didn't I say earlier that I take no sides?

You did, but you do: The opposite side of whatever Quanchi happens to be on. {Not that I blame you, given his complete and total lack of charm.}

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You did, but you do: The opposite side of whatever Quanchi happens to be on. {Not that I blame you, given his complete and total lack of charm.}

Hey, not my problem if he always chooses the losing side hehe stick out tongue

Turr_Phennir
Korto Vos
Hey, not my problem if he always chooses the losing side hehe stick out tongue

He definitely lost the Battlezone thread {Yoda's speed is simply too significant for a wizard like Voldemort to overcome}, but I'm siding with him and the Canadian here. Irrespective of the quality of the competing films, Potter!forces simply outclass the Middle Earthlings.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
He definitely lost the Battlezone thread {Yoda's speed is simply too significant for a wizard like Voldemort to overcome}, but I'm siding with him and the Canadian here. Irrespective of the quality of the competing films, Potter!forces simply outclass the Middle Earthlings.

The Canadian has made a strong argument. Though, you have to give the Indian some credit here for trying to show how LOTR can emerge victorious.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Korto Vos
I'm not on any side; it's just in debates that I've participated in involved me arguing against Harry Potter.

I can't help it if Yoda > Voldemort, a Balrog would pose a severe challenge, Gandalf > Voldemort, or 13000 LOTR forces would defeat less than a 1000 HP wizards/witches/beasts. Incorrect on all counts here. I won't derail this awesome thread of mine though with any of these mini debates.


Here's how I see this thread of mine. HP side wins but it isn't a landslide either. One thing people have left out are the golems who will be the ones doing most of the up close and personal fighting for the wizards. You also have the giants who are going to just absolutely wreck through Helms deep along with the wizards and Dementors who all will be pressing it as well.

This along with the aerial and long ranged combat implored by Hp severely dwindle the numbers and quickly. The ability to apparate anywhere they want to also will also give the Lotr side fits. The Nazgul will be huge giant targets and will quickly be blown out of the sky.

The amount of arrowfire and numbers make this interesting but even a weaker, inexperienced punk kid can create giant fire creatures which will take out huge numbers of the Lotr side.

The hp side wins.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
He definitely lost the Battlezone thread {Yoda's speed is simply too significant for a wizard like Voldemort to overcome}, but I'm siding with him and the Canadian here. Irrespective of the quality of the competing films, Potter!forces simply outclass the Middle Earthlings. You had the opportunity to accept the battlezone and punked out, mcfly.

Korto Vos
Like Gid said, Quanchi states that I am "Incorrect on all counts here."

quanchi112
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Like Gid said, Quanchi states that I am "Incorrect on all counts here." Edit the --d part out. Otherwise something could happen which even myself doesn't want to happen here. Star wars peeps stick together it would seem.

Lord Lucien
I'm gonna try and condense things best I can, don't want this stretching out too far.


Originally posted by Korto Vos
Hmm, how are you envisioning this battle playing out?

I imagine the Elven archers and Helms Deep forces in battle stations (bows and arrows ready) on the Deeping Wall and Hornburg. The Uruk-Hai on the ground guarding the keep- pikes in the front lines, bowmen/crossbowmen in the next lines, and then bulk infantry with the suicide bombers, berserkers, and tanks scattered among them. The Nine Nazgul on top of the Fell Beasts above making vulture rounds above. Gandalf and the Rohirrim in the side valley ready to charge down.

And in front of the Uruk-Hai lie the HP Army, ready to lay siege upon the Deep. Behind them are the line of trees that are of course the Huorn.

I imagine a countdown of ten seconds where nobody makes a move, and then FIGHT!

Uruk-Hai charge forward, Uruks fire arrows/bolts, Elves/Helms Deep defenders fire arrows, Nazgul swoop down shrieking, Huorn advance, and Gandalf & Rohirrim charge down the valley.

So you're saying at the start of battle, the HP Army will all unanimously construct a giant shield. I just find this starting LOTR surge too quick and deadly for the wizards/witches to spend time devising a magical barrier. Rather, I see an offensive push, which is why I am arguing my line of thought.

Now, if we were arguing LOTR siege, and the HP Army DEFENDING Helms Deep, then yes, I agree HP will have a comprehensive victory. Going by this set-up, I see a shitload of Shield Charms going up. If Voldemort and his top Death Eaters are the front, BLAMO! no arrows getting through.


It's not like it takes a whole army to put up Protego Maxima. Flitwick did it himself, and later with Slughhorn and Molly Weasley helping. I feel confident in saying that admist the 1000 dark wizards here, there are enough of them with knowledge of the Shield Charm to make it effective. Get a minor initial charm for that first volley of arrows, then maxima immediately after.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yes, even if they aren't instant paralyzing screams, the extreme discomfort and pain is enough to make the hardy men of Gondor all cower in fear and clutch their ears, unable to fight. Because the Nine had opposition within Minas Tirith, a massive cityscraper, and the Pelennor, they were spread out and their effectiveness was limited.

In the confines of the Deeping Coomb, the Nine Nazgul can act in deadly unison, with the demoralizing shrieks starting right as the battle begins. This is my rationale as to why they won't be struck by an Immobulus or Silencio any time soon- as soon as they come within range, the shrieks will prevent spellcasting (as the wizards/witches will be holding their ears or be completely consumed in fear).

I mean, I'm just going by the fact that thousands of Rohirrim and Gondorian soldiers had the chance to shoot down the Fell Beast, but absolutely none of them were able to. My logic? As soon as they probably had the opportunity to aim and shoot once the beasts swooped down, the Nazgul shrieks caused them to lower their weapons and more or less act disabled.1.) Magic wands x1000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bows and arrows.

2.) The Nazgul shriek will not be delivered upon the ears of the Men, Elves, and horses? There goes the cavalry charge and the Elven bows.

3.) Silencio/Immobulus. Seriously, I know the wizards, probably even Voldemort himself will be affected by the screeching, but it doesn't impair their ability to cast spells. And it's not gonna take a rocket scientist-wizard to figure out that a silencing charm on those big f*cking flying things would be a sound (see what I did there?) move.






Originally posted by Korto Vos
xWell, the wizards/witches have to mow down the Uruks and Rohirrim Cavalry before the Deeping Wall can be breached.

And 1000 is an arbitrary convenient number I made up to comprise the total number of the HP Army, including those suits of armor, giants, acromantula, and house-elves. The Death Eaters themselves, with any Imperiused wizards, probably number less than 130. The Hogwarts staff and students, Hogsmeade residents, Dumbledore's Army, and Order of the Phoenix probably number at what...300 tops? So in actuality, there are probably like 500 wizards/witches MAX at play here. That number is still more than enough. So long as Voldemort and his Death Eaters are there, they'll win. The rest are superfluous.

And as for the charging Uruks/cavalry... Fiendfyre might suck in the hands of Vincent Crabbe, but in the hands of very powerful and experienced Death Eaters, including Voldemort himself, Fiendfyre will annihilate the entire Uruk/Rohirrim company.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Hmm...I want to know your battle logistics before I can comment on this. 17.


What?






Originally posted by Korto Vos
Oh no, I've definitely acknowledged its existence. I completely forgot about that avenue till you brought it forward. Nevertheless, I question its overall efficacy. Why? Instant evaporation/incineration/obliteration etc.

But screw it, it doesn't even need to exist. Shield Charms come in smaller, quicker sizes that will block arrows just as well.

Now... if they were magic arrows...




Originally posted by Korto Vos
No, I meant, once they see the first 100 Uruk-Hai getting vaporized by the barrier, the arrows/bolts not piercing through, and seeing spells obliterating the 900 rest, all of the LOTR forces will retreat into the Hornburg fortress and Glittering Caves.

They'll have a thousand Uruks acting as fodder while everybody else retreats into the fortress and the extensive network of caverns. This will be used to draw out the HP Army from the protection of the magical shield. Oh.


Well the Uruks were all roasted at the beginning by Fiendfyre, so... anyone left in the caves...


"MAGIC-INDUCED CAVE IN, RUN!"





Originally posted by Korto Vos
It's a nice summary, and I completely understand what you are saying.

Everything is dependent on the shield. Does it have to be made once the battle has begun or is it already produced pre-fighting? Either or. If it's before, then they win SUPER-easy. If they have to put it up after the starting pistol, then it'll take a minute. But I'm not impressed enough by the average Elven/Uruk archer to say that they'll be overwhelming the common Shield Charm.



And then there's apparation. Once they start flying around like that, no one's gonna be hurting them. But they can still dish out damage mid-flight.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
No, I'm not going to call you biased. You are making sound arguments, and I expect as much from a respectable poster like yourself.

There aren't 1000 Death Eaters. There are 100.

And whoa, I don't hate Harry Potter. Didn't I say earlier that I take no sides? 100 or 130, which one? Doesn't matter. This is a solid win for the wizards regardless. They have too many tricks and powers for foot soldiers armed with swords and arrows to overcome. The trees are highly flammable and are easily disabled, the Nazgul threat won't last long. And if the giant spiders, trolls etc. are all taking place, then holy hell. I hope they packed a Sam Gamgee with them to take care of all those proto-Shelobs.


I actually went in to this imagining ways in which the wizards would lose, not win. And for the life of me, I can't figure out how they would lose. We'd need to actually handicap the wizards to make this fair, like prohibiting apparation and Dark Magic.




My condensing skills need work.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm gonna try and condense things best I can, don't want this stretching out too far.


Going by this set-up, I see a shitload of Shield Charms going up. If Voldemort and his top Death Eaters are the front, BLAMO! no arrows getting through.


It's not like it takes a whole army to put up Protego Maxima. Flitwick did it himself, and later with Slughhorn and Molly Weasley helping. I feel confident in saying that admist the 1000 dark wizards here, there are enough of them with knowledge of the Shield Charm to make it effective. Get a minor initial charm for that first volley of arrows, then maxima immediately after.

See, there is where I disagree with you. I don't see battle mechanics playing out this way.

It's one thing to "Protego Maxima. Fianto Duri. Repello Inimigotum," and watch as a nice magical barrier takes its time to nicely form when your opposition isn't present. But in the thick of battle? Thousands of arrows being fired per minute, a gigantic cavalry charging down at breakneck speed led by a dude on a white horse casting Blinding Light down upon you, crippling ear-splitting screams by wraiths on wyvern-like creatures above, Orcs pressing forward with some of them setting up explosive charges across the field.

Secondly, and this will be a tad bit abstract, the type of magical barrier you are proposing is inconsistent with the natural formations of the shield in the films. The tandem of spells produced a barrier that naturally disseminated to eventually the cover the Hogwarts complex. A similar repetition would produce a shield that would expand to overlay the Deeping Coomb, much less result in a narrow bubble within an already small valley. Do you understand what I am saying here? I'm terrible at explaining this...




1. Sure?
2. Well...those on the same side of the Nazgul don't seem to cower against their shrieks. The Orcs aren't affected by the screams; I reckon its very possible the Nazgul target their horrible cries upon their enemies.

Besides, considering how Faramir and the Gondorians were still able to control the reigns of their steeds to the degree that they were able to move towards Minas Tirith during the flight form Osgiliath, the Rohirrim (Horse Lords) should have no trouble managing their horses.

And the Elves and Helms Deep defenders on the Deeping Wall will be just fine.

3. Yeah, but that's the thing- what I was saying is that even if one realized a Silencio would be effective, the constant shrieks would prevent him/her from casting the spell once a Fell Beast came into range.




Well, without the shield, those numbers will dwindle very quickly.




LOL, nvm.





Yeah, but think about how many continuous "Protego"s would have to be cast to block the arrows/bolts/debris. Chances are not at the rate of which missiles are being unleashed. Factor in the cavalry, Nazgul, and Uruk-Hai, and Shield Charms won't be enough.



The Glittering Caves are quite extensive, y'know..




Oh well, I am rather impressed by the average Elven/Uruk archer confused




If they pop up surrounded by LOTR forces, they WILL get hit.




100 Death Eaters, and 30 is an arbitrary number I made up to include the number of Imperiused wizards they brought along.

The commanders will have a field day against the beasties. Especially Legolas :P




Well, I see an LOTR pyrrhic victory.




Nah, tis fine!

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Korto Vos
It's one thing to "Protego Maxima. Fianto Duri. Repello Inimigotum," and watch as a nice magical barrier takes its time to nicely form when your opposition isn't present. But in the thick of battle? Thousands of arrows being fired per minute, a gigantic cavalry charging down at breakneck speed led by a dude on a white horse casting Blinding Light down upon you, crippling ear-splitting screams by wraiths on wyvern-like creatures above, Orcs pressing forward with some of them setting up explosive charges across the field. Yes. I do see experienced, evil, dark wizards doing all that in the heat of battle. I do see them casually (yet loudly) casting those spells and watching their effects unfold. I do not think they are so mentally unstable and emotionally weak as to run, cower, or pull a Fallout-style "flee" where they ignore everything else in the world except their deaths.


I do not see that from Voldemort and co.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Secondly, and this will be a tad bit abstract, the type of magical barrier you are proposing is inconsistent with the natural formations of the shield in the films. The tandem of spells produced a barrier that naturally disseminated to eventually the cover the Hogwarts complex. A similar repetition would produce a shield that would expand to overlay the Deeping Coomb, much less result in a narrow bubble within an already small valley. Do you understand what I am saying here? I'm terrible at explaining this... Yes, but I fail to see how it is a problem. I've heard quite a few people talk about how whenever someone in HP (films and books) uses a spell that requires an item or object to move, they never speak or give an indication of the direction or speed, but the object still follows the order perfectly. I can't cite specific examples ATM, but they exist. The closest explanation I've heard is that they utter the directions non-verbally in their head.


Either way, I don't see the shape of the canyon being a hindrance in any way.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Sure?
2. Well...those on the same side of the Nazgul don't seem to cower against their shrieks. The Orcs aren't affected by the screams; I reckon its very possible the Nazgul target their horrible cries upon their enemies.

Besides, considering how Faramir and the Gondorians were still able to control the reigns of their steeds to the degree that they were able to move towards Minas Tirith during the flight form Osgiliath, the Rohirrim (Horse Lords) should have no trouble managing their horses.

And the Elves and Helms Deep defenders on the Deeping Wall will be just fine.

3. Yeah, but that's the thing- what I was saying is that even if one realized a Silencio would be effective, the constant shrieks would prevent him/her from casting the spell once a Fell Beast came into range. 1.) Glad we agree.

2.) So wait, Faramir and his riders weren't affected enough by the Nazgul shrieks to cover their ears, fall off their horses, or scream in pain... but the darkest Dark Wizard in all of history will be?

I just watched that scene again to verify, and actually, my own faith in the Nazgul's incapacitating abilities has just been shattered. The Nazgul are contiguously screeching throughout the scene, and not a single Man or horse is seen being affected by it. Huh... shows what I know...




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well, without the shield, those numbers will dwindle very quickly. Well without the shield, the shield charm in general, the ability to apparate, and the ability to quickly and easily freeze/immobilize anything in the air. Essentially take away the wizard's abilities and yeah, their numbers will drop.






Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yeah, but think about how many continuous "Protego"s would have to be cast to block the arrows/bolts/debris. Chances are not at the rate of which missiles are being unleashed. Factor in the cavalry, Nazgul, and Uruk-Hai, and Shield Charms won't be enough. They would have to use it a lot. How many arrows do you think a quiver can hold? As for the horses--even without the shield, uh "bubble", I'll call it, there's any myriad of spells they can use to stop them in their tracks. Protego minor will stop them, if not en masse, then enough at a time. Fiendfyre (by Voldemort or one of his higher ups) would be a magnificent way to incinerate the entire cavalry and Uruk formation. Same with the trees, but Incendio will be enough for them. Pick one. My favourite would be Fiendfyre, just because of how destructive and cool it is.



Originally posted by Korto Vos
The Glittering Caves are quite extensive, y'know..And Fiendfyre can traverse every passage, I'm sure.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Oh well, I am rather impressed by the average Elven/Uruk archer confused So am I. As archers go. But as a soldiers who can penetrate the defenses of powerful magical beings... not so much.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
If they pop up surrounded by LOTR forces, they WILL get hit. Pop up? They don't need to. Voldy and his Death Eaters can just take to the skies with their smoke forms and keep raining down a barrage of destruction and death without touching the ground again. Easy win.



Originally posted by Korto Vos
100 Death Eaters, and 30 is an arbitrary number I made up to include the number of Imperiused wizards they brought along.

The commanders will have a field day against the beasties. Especially Legolas :P 100. 10. Voldemort alone. Doesn't matter, the rest of the goons/creatures are just for show. So long as the more... competent wizards--the Death Eaters, are present, they need only take to the skies in smokarition and level the entire canyon or fill it with Fiendyre. This would all be over be very quickly




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well, I see an LOTR pyrrhic victory. The rest of us see a Death Eater total victory.

dadudemon
Voldemort can literally solo every single LotR character, at once.


Fire an arrow at a cloud of smoke. Nothing happens.

Strike a cloud of smoke with a sword. Nothing happens.

Scream at a cloud of smoke. Nothing happens.

Force push/pull a cloud of smoke. Now we may be getting somewhere...but how is that supposed to happen when the cloud of smoke is moving and can instantly teleport to wherever it wants to go?

Cast a fireball at the cloud of smoke. Nothing happens.

Cast a blinding light at a cloud of smoke. Nothing happens.


So we are left with TK being the only viable option to combat JUST A SINGLE CHARACTER. There's no need for anyone except one decent Death Eater in this thread. Much less the literally invincible Voldemort (horcruxes).


Win (pun intended) will the blind HP hate end?


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Very, very few wizards will fall in this. If any. Some of the may get bruised ribs from laughing s hard at their own overwhelming success.

It's hard to see why any more than one decent HP wizard is needed.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by dadudemon
Win (pun intended) will the blind HP hate end? Once RJ's odor has faded. I'll be honest, I don't feel comfortable supporting Harry Potter so strongly. Makes me feel... *eek* like him.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Once RJ's odor has faded. I'll be honest, I don't feel comfortable supporting Harry Potter so strongly. Makes me feel... *eek* like him.


That b*tch can't sh*t about it. 313

You're safe. Say whatever you want.


I too, also opposed HP against RJ in many threads.


I feel the HP stuff is better suited for arguments...with other powerful magic or god like character.


Dr. Strange (a prime version) would solo the HP-Verse. smile

Lord Lucien
Now that he's Dead and Gone the way of T.I., I don't mind saying that I'd completely reverse my stance on the Star Wars vs. Harry Potter debate. It just never felt... right, siding with him. Like no matter how correct the stance was, his douchebaggery would reflect on you too.

dadudemon
That was part of the problem that RJ brought up constantly: he would ask me to just side with him with just a simple post from me because no one would take him seriously unless he had "legit" backup.

At times, I would side with him just to lend a bit of credit to his side in discussions. Other times, I would not: he made more than enough good points.

ares834
When a wizard is half-apparting they are actually tangible and not merely smoke. This is evident in Deathly Hallows part 2 when Snape busts through a window despite the fact that he appears to be smoke and when Voldemort is half-apparting with Harrry they are crashing into stuff and their physical forms can be seen when it shifts to their perspective.

dadudemon
Yeah, smoke...is tangible.



It's because smoke is made up of a bunch of really tiny particles. It's called a colloid.


But it's not very much more tangible than air.

ares834
Tangible was bad word choice on my part. I simply meant their body is still there just covered in smoke as evident in this very bad quality clip:

9uOwoEAQD5Q

Lord Lucien
That's true, though it won't make much difference here. Most they have to worry about is Legolas. But they'll be dozens of them doing that, and it only takes one spell to kill him. And everyone else. At once.

ares834
Oh I agree. LotR folks are screwed here.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes. I do see experienced, evil, dark wizards doing all that in the heat of battle. I do see them casually (yet loudly) casting those spells and watching their effects unfold. I do not think they are so mentally unstable and emotionally weak as to run, cower, or pull a Fallout-style "flee" where they ignore everything else in the world except their deaths.

They won't be spending time trying to produce a "bubble" when hundreds of arrows are coming at them per second, wraiths on dragons are screwing their ears with bloodcurdling shrieks, and cavalry and Orcs are rushing at them. They'll be trying to protect themselves at any cost. Many of them may Apparate, and therefore cause a major scattering of the wizard/witch numbers.

They won't be fleeing Fallout-style, but it's absolutely absurd to think they will stand "casually casting those spells and watching their effects unfold."




Ehh, that's a vague counter. The "bubble" would extend over the entire Deeping Coomb, based on its natural formative tendencies in DH2.




Again, the point I was making was that it wouldn't have much effect on those on the same side of the Nazgul.

No...they were clearly affected. They were terrified and barely had any control of their horses; hell, the horses probably knew Minas Tirith was safe and were bolting towards there regardless of their riders' status.




Without the "bubble," the wizards/witches will be in severe danger.




Fiendfyre takes Voldemort a dozen seconds to fully cast. Plus, we see it as the only spell Voldemort being able to during its interval. Furthermore, because Fiendfyre demands such concentration by its user to maintain control, it's very likely Voldemort cannot perform other spells while commanding Fiendfyre. Considering all the other threats here (including the arrow-fall), Voldemort wouldn't leave himself exposed with Fiendfyre.




And the extent of a controlled Fiendfyre (this is key; Quanchi and I debated his heavily back in the Battlezone regarding controlled vs. uncontrolled Fiendfyre) we see on-screen is Voldemort producing a single aflame serpent.




The smoke forms are visible. Archers can wait for the moment the form momentarily stops and the individual emerges to start blasting arrows. Or a Fell Beast can feast on one in mid-air.





Ehh...no matter how powerful the individual Death Eater is with his/her repertoire of spells, I just cannot fathom this obliteration occurring in this battle's mechanics.




KV, teh 1-Man Army!

Honestly, I enjoy this discussion/debate. We can keep continuing this, or we can just Agree to Disagree and retire this thread onto the shelves of the MVF.

dadudemon
Originally posted by ares834
Tangible was bad word choice on my part. I simply meant their body is still there just covered in smoke as evident in this very bad quality clip:

9uOwoEAQD5Q

There is also the part where those smokey puffs pass right through each other indicating that there are multiple phases in their smoke forms.


Partially solid...where just the legs are smoked up (we see that) and total smokes (I call it the holey smokes form...yes, it's spelled that way for a reason).


Keep in mind that Voldy's or Harry's head would have splattered against that crap they ran through, at times.


Then there's also the time a death eater was in full smoke form and he busted through some bricks: that would have splattered him if he were in any physical body form.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Korto Vos
They won't be spending time trying to produce a "bubble" when hundreds of arrows are coming at them per second, wraiths on dragons are screwing their ears with bloodcurdling shrieks, and cavalry and Orcs are rushing at them. They'll be trying to protect themselves at any cost. Many of them may Apparate, and therefore cause a major scattering of the wizard/witch numbers.

They won't be fleeing Fallout-style, but it's absolutely absurd to think they will stand "casually casting those spells and watching their effects unfold." You know what? I'll give you this one. The Death Eaters will look at the onslaught of arrows and apparate out of the way. They Fiendfyre the entire valley and incinerate everything in it. They'll Immobulus the Nazgul on their way.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Ehh, that's a vague counter. The "bubble" would extend over the entire Deeping Coomb, based on its natural formative tendencies in DH2. I'm sorry, I can't play the Semantic Game to the same extent that some of you can. I also hate using the No Limits Fallacy, or any variation of it. "We only see a couple wizards form the shield around a certain location, in a certain shape, to a certain strength--ergo, that's all that can ever be done." Taken straight from Star Wars vs. Star Trek, 'the Borg can assimilate X amount of energy, therefore they can absorb any amount, because their limit wasn't shown.'

Same principle here; the shield was never deployed by Death Eaters, or in a different location, around a different shape, therefore it can't be used anywhere else, by anyone else.



Sorry, don't buy it.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Again, the point I was making was that it wouldn't have much effect on those on the same side of the Nazgul.

No...they were clearly affected. They were terrified and barely had any control of their horses; hell, the horses probably knew Minas Tirith was safe and were bolting towards there regardless of their riders' status. No, actually, that's not true. Faramir and the surviving Osgiliath garrison could hear the screeches of the Nazgul--right around the time Faramir shouted "Nazgul!!" No covering their ears, no cowering in terror, nothing of the sort except acknowledgement of this dreaded enemies' presence. And no, they were not set to flight due to the Nazgul either; before the Nazgul screech is heard and their presence shouted out, Faramir tells his man to order the men to break formation and ride for Minas Tirith. Then the Nazgul arrived. They were set to flight by the overwhelming Orcs.


I'm unimpressed by their inability to strike petrifying terror in to the hearts of battle-weary and exhausted Men who were already running, never mind the greatest Dark Lord and his entire cadre of Death Eaters.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Without the "bubble," the wizards/witches will be in severe danger. Unless they apparate.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
Fiendfyre takes Voldemort a dozen seconds to fully cast. Plus, we see it as the only spell Voldemort being able to during its interval. Furthermore, because Fiendfyre demands such concentration by its user to maintain control, it's very likely Voldemort cannot perform other spells while commanding Fiendfyre. Considering all the other threats here (including the arrow-fall), Voldemort wouldn't leave himself exposed with Fiendfyre. Pray tell where you acquired these "facts". All of them now, don't skimp on any.


WAIT! Don't answer yet, wait until my next point below.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
And the extent of a controlled Fiendfyre (this is key; Quanchi and I debated his heavily back in the Battlezone regarding controlled vs. uncontrolled Fiendfyre) we see on-screen is Voldemort producing a single aflame serpent. 1.) Prove that was Fiendfyre (but don't really, it doesn't matter).

2.) Prove that was Voldemort's absolute limit (but don't really, it doesn't matter).

3.) Prove that he needs to control it (he won't actually be standing down there).

4.) Tell me where the 12 second thing came from.

5.) Prove to me he can't do it while apparating.

6.) Prove to me his followers can't either. Vincent "Retard" Crabbe learned it likely from the Carrows, so that's at least one who knows--a background villain. He's got how many more?




Originally posted by Korto Vos
The smoke forms are visible. Archers can wait for the moment the form momentarily stops and the individual emerges to start blasting arrows. Or a Fell Beast can feast on one in mid-air. Why would the form momentarily stop? How can they still fire their bows when they and their bow have been reduced to ash? Why do you put so much faith in the archers defeating magical smoke clouds who spit Hell fire, telekinetic assaults, death beams and all around bi-winning?


Also, Immobulus for the Nazgul and their Beasts. Again.





Originally posted by Korto Vos
Ehh...no matter how powerful the individual Death Eater is with his/her repertoire of spells, I just cannot fathom this obliteration occurring in this battle's mechanics. Okay, don't fathom "obliteration". Fathom "immobilization". Cuz screw the rest. Forget Fiendfyre, Avada Kedavra, Protego, apparation, all of it.


Voldemort and his Death Eaters don't need to move. They need only Immobulus. A pulsating, faster-than-an-arrow wave of purple magic that immobilizes every Uruk, horse, Beast, Huorn, and yes, even the mythical arrows. They'll fire off such a collection of Freezing Charms as to make little 12-year old Hermione proud.




Originally posted by Korto Vos
KV, teh 1-Man Army!

Honestly, I enjoy this discussion/debate. We can keep continuing this, or we can just Agree to Disagree and retire this thread onto the shelves of the MVF. ...





Immobulus!


I'd make that my catchphrase if I didn't already have one. And only losers have more than one.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know what? I'll give you this one. The Death Eaters will look at the onslaught of arrows and apparate out of the way. They Fiendfyre the entire valley and incinerate everything in it. They'll Immobulus the Nazgul on their way.

Why not simply immobulus the arrows?

Frankly:

k8S11wsm6zU&feature=player_embedded

1.22. End thread.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not simply immobulus the arrows?Oh, Neph, you and you're not reading everything I posted. Silly goose.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Frankly:

k8S11wsm6zU&feature=player_embedded

1.22. End thread. Massive 'splosions win the day?

Nephthys
If America has taught be anything its that massive 'splosions always win the day.

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