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Its question about a few jedi masters and their skills with the force and lightsaber. When I read articles about them, they're really often describe as "one of the best swordmaster of his time" etc. So which of them are the best? Which is most overrated/underrated? Or maybe all of them are at the same level?

Here they are:
Kit Fisto, Anoon Bondara, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Cin Drallig, Sorq Bulq, Plo Koon, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos.

Or maybe there is an other guy on their level that i forgot?

Ah, and sry for my bad english, i've hope that you can understand what i mean.

For Clone Wars Jedi, I rank them as:

1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi

5. Plo Koon
6. Depa Billaba
7. Kit Fisto
8. Shaak Ti

9. Vos
10. Mundi
11. Drallig
12. Unduli

13. Hett
14. Kolar
15. Koth
16. Tiin

Honestly, #9-#15 are really hard to differentiate.

In that list above, I would say Bondara ranks between 11-15 somewhere. And Bulq would be 10 or 11.

Anoon Bondara was called pretty much one of the best duelists in the Jedi Order in Shadow Hunter, iirc. He should be ranked higher than the likes of Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Shaak Ti, Unduli, etc.

Wasn't he only called that by his padawan though?

I'd have to thumb through it again, you may be right.

And wasn't it similar to Qui-Gon's "best of this age", not necessarily of all time?

The actual quote from what I can remember was "second to none". Obvious hyperbole, imo, unless we're really to believe that he could hand Yoda and Mace their asses in a duel.

Anyway, I'd rank Depa Billaba to at least #4 on that list. She was almost on Mace's level, from what I understand.

Well, the Top 4 are locks. And ya, I'd switch Depa and Plo as a matter of fact.

Going off Korto's list, I'd bump Hett higher, I'd say he surpassed Mundi by the end of the war.

And Cin Drallig beneath the council members like Kolar and Koth.

But a few alterations aside, I'd say he has the broad strokes right.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Anoon Bondara was called pretty much one of the best duelists in the Jedi Order in Shadow Hunter, iirc. He should be ranked higher than the likes of Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Shaak Ti, Unduli, etc.

That was 10 years before Kit Fisto even joined the council, he might not have even been a Master at that point.

Being one of the best at the time doesn't tell us much how he compares to the better masters later on, even if he was better than them at the time (and he may very well have been), they had plenty of time to get much better.

By the end, they also had accumulated large amounts of actual war experience. In general I'd put late-CW masters above their pre-CW counterparts, especially strong ones like Plo, Fisto, and Shaak.

Depa and Plo about 5-6? Are you sure of that? In TPM times its possible. But during Clone War? I doubt.

TPM:
1. Yoda
2. Dooku
3. Mace
4. Qui-Gon

5. Anoon
6. Koon
7. Tinn
8. Depa

Anyway, during the CW there were some strongest jedi then Plo or Depa, i think.

Agen Kolar:
Mace Windu himself, considered one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history, found Kolar's abilities considerable. The Jedi Council felt that Windu and Kolar alone would provide a significant counter to Darth Sidious were the Sith Lord to reveal himself.

Kit Fisto:
A master practitioner of Shii-Cho, Kit Fisto was considered to be one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order.

Kolar, Fisto and Tin are described as the best sword masters Order has ever produced.

Tiin's a pilot first, he's not one of the best swordsmasters, other than in the general sense that anyone in the council is probably top 20.

Compare to Depa, who's demonstrated to be a very tough fight for Windu. Windu praises a lot of people, but she showed her stuff a lot more.

Not every Jedi who walked into that room was really one of the best-best, that was just the ones on planet at the time who were available, not counting Anakin (who they didn't trust) or Shaak Ti (who was given the task of defending the temple). Only Windu and Fisto are ones I'd consider 'Uber', with Kolar quite solid as well (but of a level that several other masters are at), and Tiin because he's a telepath and one more master can't hurt.

And Plo Koon is really quite strong. He shows a lot of force ability. I'd say that Fisto is probably better with a saber but Plo's the stronger overall.

When Windu fought Depa, he was in terrible physical condition. And Depa was probably more stronger then ever (thx by Vastor's link, if I'm not mistaken?). And finally, he doesn't want to hurt her.

In my opinion Sora Bulq did much better against Windu, then Depa.

And Sora died by Vos's hand (that was very strange for me), who was unable to find any advantage against Kolar (yeah, he don't want to kill him, but Kolar don't want kill him either).

lol?

Vos gets manhandled without fail when he tries to fight in the upper tier. Dooku telekinetically chokes and disarms him while sitting in bed iirc, Kolar and Bulq both smack him around in their respective duels, and during their sparring session Windu downs him at will.

Originally posted by Q99


This is true, but my big contention is that if Anoon Bondara is top-tier immediately 3 years before the Clone Wars, it's unlikely that someone ranked slightly above AotC Obi-Wan (Kit Fisto) or on par with (Unduli) or someone with relatively nebulous saber feats (Koon) is going to become better in a battle against droids. Remember, the bulk of lightsaber experience was either against Sith/Dark Jedi, or in training against other Jedi at the temple; battling droids and leading Clones is the bulk of Clone Wars "experience". Kit Fisto lost spectacularly to Asajj Ventress, as nearly did Unduli, and Plo Koon can freeze creeks.

So while it may be correct potentially that Anoon Bondara was overshadowed, I don't see anything in those three in particular to conclude they're in the same class.

And the conditional was "If" the statement about Anoon was omniscient narrative and not Darsha Assant's POV. I'm too lazy atm to go find Shadow Hunter and read it.

Found it:


'And now she was close to the culmination of her training. Now she stood in the topmost chamber of the spire known as the Jedi Council, with its spectacular view of the planetary city spreading away in all directions to the far horizon. Seated in twelve chairs around the perimeter of the rotunda were the members of the council. Though she had seen them but rarely during her years of training-indeed, this was only the fourth time she had been in the Council Chamber-she knew their names and histories well from her studies. Adi Gallia. Plo Koon. Eeth Koth. The ancient and venerable Yoda. And, of course, Mace Windu, a senior member of the council. Dar-sha felt more than a little giddy just being in the presence of this august company.

At least she was not standing there alone. Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness.

Darsha had entered the order at the age of two, so like most of her comrades she had no real memories of any place other than the cloistered hallways and chambers of the Temple. Master Bondara had been parent and teacher to her for as long as she could remember. She found it hard to conceive of a life in which her Jedi mentor was not involved.'


Clearly told from her perspective imo.

That seems evident enough. IIRC, he was also the Battlemaster prior to Cin Drallig who succeeded him. So even if he's not teaching Mace Windu Vaapad on his off-days, he's up there. I'm going to reread Shadow Hunter to see how he fared against Maul.

Originally posted by Eminence
lol?

Vos gets manhandled without fail when he tries to fight in the upper tier. Dooku telekinetically chokes and disarms him while sitting in bed iirc, Kolar and Bulq both smack him around in their respective duels, and during their sparring session Windu downs him at will.

Sora Bulq:
* Mastered every lightsaber form
* Taught hundreds of Jedi
* Personally approached by Windu to develop Vaapad (which wouldn't have happened if he wasn't a master duelist and one with a strong command of the Force)
* Dooku wouldn't have bothered to seduce him to the Dark Side he wasn't a strong asset

Quinlan Vos dueled Sora to the death on Saleucami, and prevailed.

Quinlan was fighting Bulq, and an even tougher battle against his own mental demons at the same time. How he managed to hold on against an individual considered to be one of the Order's best swordsman was impressive. It's not against Vos whatsoever that Sora knocked him to the ground.

In Maul vs. TPM Kenobi, the duel was over and Maul was just standing like an idiot before Kenobi completely surprised him and sliced him in half.

However, the fight between Bulq and Vos was still ongoing when Vos was brought down to his knees. Bulq did a final Dun Moch then rushed in for the kill. At that time, Vos overcame his inner darkness and had the presence of mind and speed to slay Bulq in a single move before the Weequy completed his stroke.

Similarity

Watch from 1:22 to 1:27. You see Dooku move and ready himself for the killing stroke. Imagine Obi-Wan at that instant bursts upward and slashes the Count across his chest before Dooku completes his attack.

Likewise, at the end, Quinlan embraced the light, and had greater Force acuity and speed to beat Bulq's killing blow.

He fought two battles in one duel, and came out the victor in both. Quinlan outfought Bulq in the end; it may not have been pretty, but he proved he was a greater warrior than "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Order has ever known." (that was from the older SW Databank)

That, on top of his victory over Volfe Karkko (years before the Clone Wars) made me place him at #9.

===================

EDIT: And both Vos and Kolar weren't trying to slay each other. Kolar had the greater burden of apprehending Vos and returning him to the Council, while Quinlan was just trying to escape by any means. Ergo, Kolar had to place more "umph" into the fight.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
if Anoon Bondara is top-tier immediately 3 years before the Clone War

Not 3 years, ten.


There's a lot less top Jedi in that time period than right before the CW.

You've got Koon, Depa, Koth... Qui-Gon, I guess... Mundi just joined the council that year, but still as a knight... Hett Sr. was said to be legendary but also not around...

Of the top Jedi of that time, the only ones on our list's top 10 are Depa (pre-vaapad at this point, so much less than she'd become), Koon (who's known more for force power than saber kill. Maul considered him one of the greatest Jedi warriors at the time), and Mundi (still a knight!).

So being among the top at that time just doesn't have as much competition.




Which'll still sharpen reflexes, practice precog in tough conditions, etc. etc.. Stuff like Magnadroids practice blade skills too.

And the quality of Jedi sparing partners will increase, as the ones who do fight the various darksiders regularly get better for it, and that spreads through the top ranks.




And then outdueled Grievous.

In my opinion Grievous is really overrated. Fisto beats him, Kenobi beats him. Eeth Koth (who was injury) fight him very well, and Griebous needs droids's help. And even Dooku admit that a few jedi (e.g. Drallig) are better then Griev.

And about Vos... yeah he "defeat" and kills Bulq. But when he fight Kolar, he just can't win. Both - Kolar and Vos - weren't trying to slay each other, but Kolar was just better. "That could have as easily been your arm" - Kolar was really able to do that. But he didn't want. On the other hand, if Vos would be able to do that, he probably would have done it (finally he almost kills his former master - in that case Kolar's hand or leg or ... means nothing for him)

Anyway... Let's find a new way to solve this problem...

Kolar was better then Sora or Vos, yeah? Fisto was very close to him. Saesee was more a pilot then figher. Shaak Ti was unable to fight Grievous, so she was probably weaker then Drallig or Fisto.

So, the best of them are: Fisto, Kolar, Koon, Drallig right?
Bulq, Vos, Tinn, Bondara, Depa are just a little weaker?
And Mundi, Shaak Ti, Luminara etc are the weakest, but still realy strong?

Originally posted by Zett
In my opinion Grievous is really overrated. Fisto beats him, Kenobi beats him. Eeth Koth (who was injury) fight him very well, and Griebous needs droids's help. And even Dooku admit that a few jedi (e.g. Drallig) are better then Griev.

1. Kenobi is the greatest practitioner of Soresu, and the fourth best Jedi after Yoda, Windu, and Anakin. In fact, he's among the ten best Jedi of all time. Nothing against Grievous for losing to him.

2. Grievous possesses an amazing ability to recover in fights and regain the advantage. That being said, Fisto was "winning," though the tides of battle could have easily changed.

3. Grievous didn't need the droids.

4. In Battle of Hypori, he more or less defeats Mundi, Shaak Ti, Secura, Tarr Seirr, and K'kruhk all in one fight. You could say he was overpowered and in order to downgrade him, Lucas and Co. had to have him in a slew of unimpressive showings.



1. Why is defeat in quotations? If you want to call his victory into question, read my previous post first.

2. Kolar says this, "You are a Jedi, and the Council has summoned you. Your duty is to obey. Just as it is mine to make sure you come. Willing, or not."

Quinlan just wants to escape. Agen, on the other hand, has the duty of apprehending him and bringing him back to the Council. It's clear who had to place more effort into that fight.

And by the end of the CW, Vos, with all of his training with the Dark Acolytes, has surpassed Kolar. See proof of his victory over Bulq.




Depa gave Windu an extremely tough fight. And how is Shaak Ti in your weakest category when she has a number of feats that place her among the best.

Grievous' inconsistency in showings really bugs me. I get that he's a monocle away from Snidley Whiplash, but for Christ's sake, at least let him kick some ass in the last two years.

I'm not aware of anything that determines Kenobi as being the definitive numero cuatro of the Jedi order. CW3D indicates that there are Jedi Masters who rival Kenobi.

Perhaps one could make the case for the other Masters, but I feel the sorta universally accepted idea is that the top four Jed in the CW were Yoda, Windu, Skywalker, and Kenobi.

I wouldn't say he's definitively no 4, but I would also put him there.

I wouldn't.

A lot of pro-Kenobi arguments that I've seen usually stems from the fact that he's a beloved main character with an abundance of exposure. I personally think it's silly to assume he's number four. I'd say Plo Koon, Shaak Ti, Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin are all up there. Maybe even Eeth Koth himself, given how well he did against Grievous despite the odds. Is it possible that he is? Sure, but I'm not quite willing to agree with that as of this moment.

Maybe someone could provide a convincing case for it.

Maybe later.


Who would you put in the vaunted 4th position then?

Plo Koon, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin's complete and utter lack of credible dueling feats is what puts them all below him.

Kenobi faced the same odds and sliced and diced Grievous. (Grievous plus magnaguards is the same fight.

Nephthys
Who would you put in the vaunted 4th position then?

No clue.
I'm not even sure I'd put Anakin in third place. As far as I'm concerned, there's no need to establish a hierarchy when there clearly isn't one. Kenobi is certainly among the Jedi's most talented Masters and skilled duelists, but I'm uncomfortable saying that he's the fourth best in the order.



That's a little unreasonable.
By your reckoning, Marka Ragnos must be beneath the likes of Asajj Ventress.

It's always fun using him as an example.



Which episode?

I'm not into definitive hierarchies when I see no conclusive evidence of them.

So, for example, if character 'X' is declared by a valid source to be "the most powerful of " I would accept and defend such a view.

But I'm hesitant to hand out definitive positions in such an extensive order of talented Jedi when there's no conclusive evidence.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
That's a little unreasonable.
By your reckoning, Marka Ragnos must be beneath the likes of Asajj Ventress.

It's always fun using him as an example.


I have no reason to think he isn't. Assaj Ventress would hand Naga and Ludo their asses in a duel, for sure.

Blax
I have no reason to think he isn't.

While it is certain that Janus has erred in his assessment of one Mark A. Ragnos, I should think that what little we know of him is sufficient to place him beyond the likes of Ventress.





She would fear their brick-hurling prowess, my friend. Perhaps you should reconsider?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I have no reason to think he isn't. Assaj Ventress would hand Naga and Ludo their asses in a duel, for sure.

Your skills in inductive reasoning need some work. There is a difference between what is likely and what isn't.

Provide evidence that points to Marka Ragnos being a superior duelist to Assaj Ventress. I don't want to hear any of dat shit about interpretations. Interpretations are relative.

Well he kicked Jaden Korr's ass.



Oh wait...... mmm

Off-topic, but I believe Avellone unwittingly provided an answer to the ancient, oft-asked question as to why Ragnos imbued his scepter with the Force drain power and whether he could do it himself, bereft of the scepter.

Blax
Provide evidence that points to Marka Ragnos being a superior duelist to Assaj Ventress. I don't want to hear any of dat shit about interpretations. Interpretations are relative.

Interesting.
I disagree, but I suppose you could make a case for this. Some argue a strict interpretation of the source material. {I.e. Mace's posse couldn't have been elite Jedi because of a strict interpretation of the film.} Taking a page out of that book, I suppose you could argue that Mark is clearly low-caliber? mmm

I don't actually believe that myself. It was an example of the type of logic wall you run in to when your argument for someone relies purely on feats or quotes.

edit- Well, kinda. I have no doubt Ragnos would annihilate Assaj Ventress in an actual fight, due to his force mastery. I would hesitate to say that he was a more skilled duelist though, as we literally no jack all about that aspect of him. I also happen to think Assaj is underrated, her clone wars jobbing aside.

Go on.

Thank God mine usually involve both feats and quotes. excellent

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Provide evidence that points to Marka Ragnos being a superior duelist to Assaj Ventress. I don't want to hear any of dat shit about interpretations. Interpretations are relative.

Definition for duelist:
Web definitions:
dueler: a person who fights duels.



Semantic fail?



I missed this session. Bring me back up to speed? Is it about Nihilus or something else?

Your face is a semantic fail.

SM
I missed this session. Bring me back up to speed? Is it about Nihilus or something else?

One of his interviews that I cited somewhere in an argument with Neph mentioned that the ancient Sith were the originators of Nihilus's technique but dared not use it themselves because of the inevitable destruction of their psyche. Thus it makes sense why they imbued artifacts like the Dark Reaper and the scepter with such power, where they could safely wield it without consequence.

To be clear, I don't need to be sold on Bulq. I think I've defended the character more extensively than anyone else here.


... You think that would prove Kenobi the "greater warrior?"


He didn't. I encourage you to take another look at the comic; Vos was twice hurled aside by Bulq - who was about to execute a defeated Tholme - despite being deep in his battle rage. It is only after psychic interference from Aayla Secura and Tholme that drew on the Force-bond the three of them share that, from his knees, he seized on a moment of opportunity and slew a superior fighter.

Even if you take the stance that his internal conflict hindered him to such an extent that it negated the advantages conferred by his fury, his other duels are a little less open to interpretation.


The wikia indicates that Vos is overwhelmed and at Karkko's mercy until three Jedi Masters join their power to his.


Kolar placed more "umph" into not cutting Quinlan's arm off. It is made explicitly clear in that comic that Vos is entirely outclassed.

Now I no longer believe there to be much merit in strict hierarchies like the one this and dozens of other threads have tried to establish, but I can say with relative certainty that Vos is not among the top ten warriors in the Order, and he's decidedly not better than Koth or Kolar.

E
Now I no longer believe there to be much merit in strict hierarchies like the one this

Can there be any more proof that you are naught but my servant?

what?

Page 2.

I see.

So well done... my disciple.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
So well done... my disciple. Make him change his name to Mical. KV's being a jerk about that.

Who the hell is Mical... my disciple?

I suppose it would be hard to believe that I skipped the second page, but really shhhhhh.

And if you keep offeringclaiming discipleship of everybody you're going to make KV feel very very hurt. Think of the children.

E.
I suppose it would be hard to believe that I skipped the second page, but really shhhhhh.

Indeed.
Your investigative skills are impeccable; you'd know not to skip the second page. I taught you well... my disciple.



Pain is something all my disciples must endure... my disciple.

TurrGid, if you keep referring to one as your 'disciple' in a Star Wars forum, then that person must be henceforth be called 'Mical'.

Nitika is a pain in my ass.

profiled

Originally posted by Zett

So, the best of them are: Fisto, Kolar, Koon, Drallig right?
Bulq, Vos, Tinn, Bondara, Depa are just a little weaker?
And Mundi, Shaak Ti, Luminara etc are the weakest, but still realy strong?

Drallig is definitely in the 'weakest' (weakest of course still being really strong; if we're talking about someone here, they're good).


Shaak Ti fought Vader/Anakin to escape the Jedi temple, which is rather impressive.



Again I'll point to Korto's ranking on the first page.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Make him change his name to Mical. KV's being a jerk about that.

http://funny4me.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/What-U-Call-Me.jpg

What did you call me bish?!



ermm



Does it pain you when I'm not in pain? sly

Quinlan Vos is definitely one of the fighters on the list that changed the most.

Early Vos really wasn't all that and I'd definitely put Kolar and such at solidly above him. Later on, though, Dooku did get him some really nice training and he definitely improved a good deal.

Originally posted by Q99
Quinlan Vos is definitely one of the fighters on the list that changed the most.

Early Vos really wasn't all that and I'd definitely put Kolar and such at solidly above him. Later on, though, Dooku did get him some really nice training and he definitely improved a good deal.