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Anakin has turned to the dark side and believes if he slays Palpatine Padme will be saved. Palpatine realizes Anakin is beyond controlling and is too unstable. Who wins ?

Palpatine hand down. I don't even know why you made this.

Palpatine killed 3 Jedi Masters in under 10 seconds, after they got the drop on him.

He fought Yoda and did better than anyone, plus he was hurling senate pods like other Jedi were shoving battle droids.

He was the best Sith duelist and probably tied for most powerful force user at the time Anakin turned.

What he said.

Yep, Palpatine is at a different level.

Originally posted by ares834
Yep, Palpatine is at a different level. I would tend to agree but I was told this.Originally posted by dadudemon
Maul is behind Pre-Suit Vader in Saber skills.


We have the ratings from the fight choreographer himself: Yoda, Sidious, and Vader were all 9s.

Maul was an 8.


I win. I have been told this guy's opinion is a fact so I created the thread. I figured pitting two 9's against each other would make for an interesting thread.

Nic Gillard's opinions aren't considered in any form of canon. According to Lucas himself, you had to be either Yoda or Mace to contend with Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Nic Gillard's opinions aren't considered in any form of canon. According to Lucas himself, you had to be either Yoda or Mace to contend with Sidious. I agree but try telling that to dadude he takes his words as the gospel truth.

Anakin had the potential as Sidious himself Himself believed, but Anakin was not on his level as of ROTS

Originally posted by playa1258
Anakin had the potential as Sidious himself Himself believed, but Anakin was not on his level as of ROTS He never ever reached his potential either.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Nic Gillard's opinions aren't considered in any form of canon. According to Lucas himself, you had to be either Yoda or Mace to contend with Sidious.

I dunno. Writing Gillard off completely doesn't really sit well with me.

Not that Anakin stands a chance. Lucas' word superceeds all.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Nic Gillard's opinions aren't considered in any form of canon. According to Lucas himself, you had to be either Yoda or Mace to contend with Sidious.

There are differing levels of proficiency in each category.


A 9 is not the same across the board. Anakin is a low level 9.

Each level has "several" people in it with some on top. Obviously, Yoda, Mace, and Sidious are top level 9s.


Also, a rating wasn't given to Mace. His words were "mace is a special case" or something like that.



Pitting one high and one low level 8 is the same as 9s: Maul would get destroyed by RotS Obi Wan...though I recall him saying both were 8s or something.

Also I believe Gillard is speaking purely in terms of lightsaber skills. However, a persons Force strength plays just as much of a role, indeed, an even greater role in lightsaber fights than pure skill. One who is stronger in the Force will be faster, stronger, have better reflexes and greater precognition and this ultimately determines fights.

Sidious is Anakins clear superior in Force mastery and this enables him to curbstomp him.

That move he pulled on Kit Fisto and the others would have left Anakin missing more than his arm.

Originally posted by KingD19
That move he pulled on Kit Fisto and the others would have left Anakin missing more than his arm.

Yeah, he'd be missing Padme...because he would get paraded in the streets by the Jedi and the Republic for slaying Sidious.


I actually have a theory that Anakin, when not being stupid, is enough to defeat Sidious...pre-suit.


Disregard George Lucas' comments about having to be Mace or Yoda...and just think about it only based on the movies...Anakin was faster than Sidious.

The alternate ending to the game, Episode III, has Anakin defeating Sidious...and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by KingD19
That move he pulled on Kit Fisto and the others would have left Anakin missing more than his arm.

Anakin is much better than Fisto

"To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."

Obi Wan >= Anakin

Originally posted by dadudemon
There are differing levels of proficiency in each category.


A 9 is not the same across the board. Anakin is a low level 9.

Each level has "several" people in it with some on top. Obviously, Yoda, Mace, and Sidious are top level 9s.


Also, a rating wasn't given to Mace. His words were "mace is a special case" or something like that.



Pitting one high and one low level 8 is the same as 9s: Maul would get destroyed by RotS Obi Wan...though I recall him saying both were 8s or something. I've never been able to accept his opinion as canon. I don't like conclusively categorizing different characters in Star Wars based on a 1-10 system. Feels lazy and inaccurate. Like I said in the other thread--no room for variables.

Also I don't think Gillard has actually been assigned any authority on canon, like Leland Chee. Call me a stickler for da rUlez, but that don't fly wit me.

Originally posted by Placidity
"To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."

Obi Wan >= Anakin


Well...really

Dooku >> Obi Wan

Anakin >> Dooku (when Anakin is not being stupid.


So...

Anakin >>>> Obi Wan....when he's not being stupid.

However, somehow...Anakin is not enough to take on Sidious.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've never been able to accept his opinion as canon. I don't like conclusively categorizing different characters in Star Wars based on a 1-10 system. Feels lazy and inaccurate. Like I said in the other thread--no room for variables.

Also I don't think Gillard has actually been assigned any authority on canon, like Leland Chee. Call me a stickler for da rUlez, but that don't fly wit me.

To me, it works out really well and is far from lazy. I consider it more canon than anything EU. I consider it canon to the movies and it can only be "trumped" by something Lucas says that contradicts it.

Sidious.

This thread should not exist.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sidious.

This thread should not exist. Then why post in it ?

Originally posted by dadudemon
To me, it works out really well and is far from lazy. I consider it more canon than anything EU. I consider it canon to the movies and it can only be "trumped" by something Lucas says that contradicts it. Well I guess in a movie forum it can work.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well...really

Dooku >> Obi Wan

Anakin >> Dooku (when Anakin is not being stupid.


So...

Anakin >>>> Obi Wan....when he's not being stupid.

However, somehow...Anakin is not enough to take on Sidious.


You're just ignoring everything else, because the Dooku fight was the only thing that was inconsistent.

If you go into EU, I believe Anakin beating Dooku is explained somewhat.

But just going by the film, Dooku took Obi Wan out with the force when the opportunity arose. I would say Anakin would've fared no better were he in the same position. Anakin then beating Dooku in a saber fight though, I would agree is something that Obi Wan could likely not have replicated, BUT the feat is inconsistent without an explanation, which is not provided in the film.

You can use all the A>B>C logic you want (while ignoring some facts), but there is nothing more conclusive than the one-one fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even though Obi Wan ultimately won, I would say they are still about the same. The force push impasse was indicative of that.

Now regarding Anakin beating Palpatine, thats just ridiculous. You think he could've won where Yoda failed? How about a dosage of lightning to the face Anakin? He has no defense unless you can convince us that Anakin's mastery of the force is on par with Mace or Yoda's (which is a joke). Put Anakin in Yoda's position and he would've been:

* Electrocuted
* Crushed by Pods
* Minced

Who has the higher ground?


131


Edit: Regarding the Dooku match, isn't there a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing between lightsaber styles?

Originally posted by Placidity
You're just ignoring everything else, because the Dooku fight was the only thing that was inconsistent.

If you go into EU, I believe Anakin beating Dooku is explained somewhat.

But just going by the film, Dooku took Obi Wan out with the force when the opportunity arose. I would say Anakin would've fared no better were he in the same position. Anakin then beating Dooku in a saber fight though, I would agree is something that Obi Wan could likely not have replicated, BUT the feat is inconsistent without an explanation, which is not provided in the film.

You can use all the A>B>C logic you want (while ignoring some facts), but there is nothing more conclusive than the one-one fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even though Obi Wan ultimately won, I would say they are still about the same. The force push impasse was indicative of that.

Now regarding Anakin beating Palpatine, thats just ridiculous. You think he could've won where Yoda failed? How about a dosage of lightning to the face Anakin? He has no defense unless you can convince us that Anakin's mastery of the force is on par with Mace or Yoda's (which is a joke). Put Anakin in Yoda's position and he would've been:

* Electrocuted
* Crushed by Pods
* Minced


Just a saber duel when Anakin, as others put it, is in the zone, would net Anakin a victory, IMO.


I have already supported the why. It is not contradictable because that is my opinion. The closet we have to getting something definitive is Lucas saying, "Anakin could have defeated the Emperor"...and in context, it was to an Anakin that did not fall on Mustafar.

I take that to mean that Anakin could have defeated him pre-suit IF he hadn't lost to Obi Wan. I support that position with the non-canon ending of the episode III game where he strikes down Obi Wan and then strikes down Palpatine and becomes the Emperor.


Others say that it refers to another statement that Lucas made about Anakin having the potential to be more powerful (twice?) as the emperor and Luke is what Anakin could have become. That's where we get our uber powered NJO Luke from: those statements.

In the finality of it all, Vader becomes only 80% of the Emperor. That's suited.



I do not see any concrete statements from Lucas, anywhere, in all the years this has been discussed, that states that "in teh zone" Anakin could not defeat Sidious in a saber duel. Until I see something from Lucas that directly contradicts that position, I will continue to maintain that Luke could beat Sidious IF in the zone.


Also, I'm sure Anakin trained up on force lightning since his little adventure against Sidious. I bet you could find something in the clone wars TV series or the clone wars CGI movie.