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Let's experiment here with Hiruzen here.

Going by Oro's statement, Sarutobi knew a lot of techs. In this thread he can have access to Konoha techniques. The ones excluded are any involving bugs, a pet dog, or a sharingan/Byakugan. Things like Chidori or Danzo's wind are also not allowed because he never displayed the chakra affinities needed to use them. As for taijutsu, we'll use Asuma as a base to determine how skilled Hiruzen might have been.

Of course, Rinnegan Madara would lol stomp him so assume this is simply EMS Madara. He has Susano'o so he might also have Ama and Tsuki. He is allowed the Kusanagi sword so he can have a weapon that won't be broken by Enma.

So what do you guys think of the Hiruzen I've created and how do you think he'd fair against Madara?

Hiruzen loses based on feats.


Hiruzen wins, based on canon.


**** this thread.

I agree with the first part anyway.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I agree with the first part anyway.


Oh man, I change my mind about this whole thread.

Based on feats Madara would ****ing crush him.

Frankly, I think Hiruzen is the product of a time in the manga when Kishi wasn't sure how powerful he'd actually make some of the characters in his series.

I think he was quite a bit into the the manga when that fight occurred, so I do not think your assessment is correct. We actually had a fight, around the same time, that was leveling miles of forest and giant beasts as tall as...really tall buildings.


So I think the power scaling was already in place. I actually think he just ****ed up when he had a fight with Hiruzen and Oro.

I think we saw a fight between an old guy with so little chakra he was a shadow of his old self, and his student who thought he could play around because of it and didn't realize the true danger until Hiruzen pulled out the death god.

Originally posted by Q99
I think we saw a fight between an old guy with so little chakra he was a shadow of his old self, and his student who thought he could play around because of it and didn't realize the true danger until Hiruzen pulled out the death god.

I'm more inclined to agree to this from a story perspective and agree with Cowboy on the other.

This thread really isn't about the fight. I just want to see if this is an acceptable Hiruzen. Because while I don't think he'd win, he'd certainly have quite a lot of variety in his techniques.

Hiruzen gets his ass whooped.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think he was quite a bit into the the manga when that fight occurred, so I do not think your assessment is correct. We actually had a fight, around the same time, that was leveling miles of forest and giant beasts as tall as...really tall buildings.


So I think the power scaling was already in place. I actually think he just ****ed up when he had a fight with Hiruzen and Oro. I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think. estahuh

Which fight was that? That was so long ago I legitimately forgot.

Edit: I don't think "HES OLD" really is a defense of his pitiful showings in that fight, honestly.

Onoki is even older than Hiruzen is, and frankly makes Hiruzen look like shit. Hell, Chiyo's showings are better than Hiruzen's, from what I remember.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think. estahuh

Which fight was that? That was so long ago I legitimately forgot.

Edit: I don't think "HES OLD" really is a defense of his pitiful showings in that fight, honestly.

Onoki is even older than Hiruzen is, and frankly makes Hiruzen look like shit. Hell, Chiyo's showings are better than Hiruzen's, from what I remember.


Naruto versus Gaara fight, is the fight I was talking about.

The "old man" argument fails to me, as well. All it means is you cannot spam ultra powerful attacks over and over.


Not the case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Naruto versus Gaara fight, is the fight I was talking about.

The "old man" argument fails to me, as well. All it means is you cannot spam ultra powerful attacks over and over.


Not the case. I forget shit that happened in that fight.

What is not the case?

Originally posted by NemeBro
I forget shit that happened in that fight.

What is not the case?

Naruto summoned Gamabunta. Gaara went one tails..

Shot blasts hat blew sh*t up. Was only beaten by Hachibi vs. Sasuke...as far as widespread destruction in "modern" times of the manga.


Now we have Madara WTF pwning with meteors....so all of it has been shot teh sh*t.

Power scaling went to wack.




The "not the case" with Hiruzen. He used quite a few techs. I think he displayed quite a massive store of chakra, despite what is said about his stamina.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Naruto summoned Gamabunta. Gaara went one tails..

Shot blasts hat blew sh*t up. Was only beaten by Hachibi vs. Sasuke...as far as widespread destruction in "modern" times of the manga.


Now we have Madara WTF pwning with meteors....so all of it has been shot teh sh*t.

Power scaling went to wack.

Nah man, Sasuke vs. Itachi was more impressive as well, my son.

The "not the case" with Hiruzen. He used quite a few techs. I think he displayed quite a massive store of chakra, despite what is said about his stamina.

But most Kage level fights after that make him look like total garbage.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah man, Sasuke vs. Itachi was more impressive as well, my son.

I disagree. It was very localized. Wasn't nearly as landscape destructive as One-Tails vs. Gamabunta/Naruto. I'd put Oro. Hiruzen on the same scale. The first created a forrest, man. A FREAKIN' forrest! One of those shots from the one-tails did as much destruction as the entire fight from Itachi and Sasuke.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The "not the case" with Hiruzen. He used quite a few techs. I think he displayed quite a massive store of chakra, despite what is said about his stamina.

Yup, which is why I think the argument about his stamina being "poor" is ...well...poor. Doesn't cut it because he used quite a bit.

So what's the excuse now? (Not at you...but to anyone in general. What is the excuse for such a low showing for Hiruzen?)

Originally posted by NemeBro
But most Kage level fights after that make him look like total garbage.

Exactly.

It's Kishi's fault.

Well hey, Hiruzen supposedly knew every technique in the entirety of Konoha.

I totally disagree w/ your reasoning on his use of chidori, etc. Even if you don't have a specific nature, you can still train yourself to use them. In fact, all jonin have taught themselves techniques out of their nature. Sarutobi is considered to have an unmantched breadth in jutsu, so I think he probably could use all elements to some extent.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Onoki is even older than Hiruzen is, and frankly makes Hiruzen look like shit. if the hiruzen fight happened now, enma would have to be a saiyan in ape form for hiruzen to compete in this manga

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well hey, Hiruzen supposedly knew every technique in the entirety of Konoha.

I totally disagree w/ your reasoning on his use of chidori, etc. Even if you don't have a specific nature, you can still train yourself to use them. In fact, all jonin have taught themselves techniques out of their nature. Sarutobi is considered to have an unmantched breadth in jutsu, so I think he probably could use all elements to some extent.

Even Kakashi has only shown three in the manga, though, the great Itachi a mere two, and no-one without a kekkei genkai or similar cheat has shown four.

Learning more is possible, but it seems like each additional one must be progressively harder and/or there's semi-affinities beneath one's main one so learning a secondary and sometimes a third may be possible, but once you get into the element you're fourth best at (practically anti-affinity at that point, I'd think) it might not be worth the effort for just about anyone, let alone fifth.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Even if you don't have a specific nature, you can still train yourself to use them.

I don't necessarily disagree with this but I'd need some examples in order to accept this easily. Using all the elements seems to be something Rinnegan exclusive.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I don't necessarily disagree with this but I'd need some examples in order to accept this easily. Using all the elements seems to be something Rinnegan exclusive.
You can read about this in the chapters where Kakashi first explains Chakra natures. I will here try and explain the difference.

There is a difference between knowing an element, and having that elements corresponding chakra nature. This is the fundamentals of Kekkai Genkai; an advanced nature can be created when a person is born with multiple chakra natures in their genetics. For instance, someone born with water and wind can access the advanced element "ice". Meanwhile, someone can train themselves to use water and wind even without those genes; however, they will never be able to learn to use ice, because the actual natures are needed in that case.

The rinnegan provides all six genetic natures, which, I have long maintained, means they can also activate all advanced natures, should they know the proper techniques to do so. I can't think of many cases, but Madara has recently used a multitude of Kekkai Genkai while in rinnegan mode, which could be a confirmation (but could also have other factors).

The Kekkei Genkai Madara used were sharingan and wood, though, and we know where they both came from- born with one, stole the other from Hashirama.

I believe them to be just the two things used to trigger Rinnegan rather than a result.


Though if he uses an element KG other than wood, that'd demonstrate the ability.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You can read about this in the chapters where Kakashi first explains Chakra natures. I will here try and explain the difference.

There is a difference between knowing an element, and having that elements corresponding chakra nature. This is the fundamentals of Kekkai Genkai; an advanced nature can be created when a person is born with multiple chakra natures in their genetics. For instance, someone born with water and wind can access the advanced element "ice". Meanwhile, someone can train themselves to use water and wind even without those genes; however, they will never be able to learn to use ice, because the actual natures are needed in that case.

The rinnegan provides all six genetic natures, which, I have long maintained, means they can also activate all advanced natures, should they know the proper techniques to do so. I can't think of many cases, but Madara has recently used a multitude of Kekkai Genkai while in rinnegan mode, which could be a confirmation (but could also have other factors).

It's not just being born with two-three natures that allows one to combine them into a new element.
Mei is proof of this. She can use Fire & Earth together, and Fire & Water together, but not Earth & Water together, even though by your reasoning she would be able to. Onoki is further proof, as he can combine three elements at once for a Kekkei Tota, but he cannot use any of the elemental KG's one would expect him to have.

I still don't believe the Rinnegan would be able to perform the advanced genetic natures. But you could be right. Not with Madara though. He's only shown the Mokuton, which he got from Kabuto/Hashirama. That Meteor tech of his is likely a large scale application of Bansho Tenin/gravity powers.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's not just being born with two-three natures that allows one to combine them into a new element.
Mei is proof of this. She can use Fire & Earth together, and Fire & Water together, but not Earth & Water together, even though by your reasoning she would be able to. Onoki is further proof, as he can combine three elements at once for a Kekkei Tota, but he cannot use any of the elemental KG's one would expect him to have.

I still don't believe the Rinnegan would be able to perform the advanced genetic natures. But you could be right. Not with Madara though. He's only shown the Mokuton, which he got from Kabuto/Hashirama. That Meteor tech of his is likely a large scale application of Bansho Tenin/gravity powers.
I think she just didn't know the proper secret art to do that transformation. As Onoki goes, I think he does know the other two natures, just, didn't really need to use them so far and prefers earth. That kekkai genkai seems to be a little different as even other Senju could not do it, only someone with the particular genome of Hashirama himself can. One possibility I can think of, is that it could be a rare mutation or variant.

Well, he has used the EMS techniques while in rinnegan form. That meteor tech is bizzarre, where is he getting them from? Just created from thin air? Is there an earth technique involved? I don't understand. When I first saw it i thought he was using Chibaku, but it didn't form by pulling up the ground, it just sort of came out of nowhere.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think she just didn't know the proper secret art to do that transformation. As Onoki goes, I think he does know the other two natures, just, didn't really need to use them so far and prefers earth.

Well, he has used the EMS techniques while in rinnegan form. That meteor tech is bizzarre, where is he getting them from? Just created from thin air? Is there an earth technique involved? I don't understand. When I first saw it i thought he was using Chibaku, but it didn't form by pulling up the ground, it just sort of came out of nowhere.

That's true, but one would then wonder why she would not learn Wood jutsu if she could, since Wood is shown to be incredibly hax. All it takes is using two chakra natures at one time.
Anyway, according to these scans, its not being born with an affinity for two elements, but being born with the ability to mold two elements together that nets you the resulting KG. Which would make sense, as there could be a bunch of people who could combine Fire & Earth into Lava, but could not use Lava simply because they do not know Earth or Fire.

Yeah, but that is because we now know that the Rinnegan is a higher form of the Sharingan.
Well, I guess he's actually pulling it in from space. An extension of Bansho Ten'in, much like a large-scale version of this technique Nagato used: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/549/9

^ i see kandy's point: the meteors just seemed to be arbitrarily pulled down to earth like there is an abundance of them just floating around out there close to the planet. no real effort in searching for two massive meteors...nope, just reach out and pull them down like oranges.

the speed in which they were attracted to earth also makes it seem they weren't that far away either, unless he slowed them down for some reason 99.99999% of the destination from the asteroid belt.

Yeah, it is kind of stupid. It's called a meteorite though. srug
And it is awfully similar to that tech Nagato used against Naruto & Bee.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's called a meteorite though. srug


It's a meteoroid until it enters the atmosphere. Once in the atmosphere, it is a meteor. Once it reaches the surface or the pieces do, it is a meteorite.

However, those are large enough to NOT be meteoroids: they are asteroids.


So EVERYONE IS WROOOOOOONG! mwhahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaaaaaa




So, yeah, those bitches were two moderately sized asteroids. There's between 750,000-1,000,000 asteroids around the size of the ones we saw Madara used...so there are plenty of them available. Why can it not work by simply summoning them and then "force pulling them" to accelerate them? The rinnigan allows for the creation of the mooon...so why not allowing some sort of summoning shit going on with asteroids?

Originally posted by dadudemon


So EVERYONE IS WROOOOOOONG! mwhahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaaaaaa




So, yeah, those bitches were two moderately sized asteroids. There's between 750,000-1,000,000 asteroids around the size of the ones we saw Madara used...so there are plenty of them available. Why can it not work by simply summoning them and then "force pulling them" to accelerate them? The rinnigan allows for the creation of the mooon...so why not allowing some sort of summoning shit going on with asteroids?

Everyone? That would include you then.
mwhahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaaaaaa

Makes more sense than Madara pulling in two asteroids from space and then slowing them down once they were in the atmosphere, if they were slowed down.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Everyone? That would include you then.
mwhahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaaaaaa

Very good: that was the point. I was wrong because I indulged in the "meteor" talk in the official thread...when I knew better...making me wrong as well. weep

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Makes more sense than Madara pulling in two asteroids from space and then slowing them down once they were in the atmosphere, if they were slowed down.

It's true. The atmosphere would not slow them down.


But, he's still have to FIRST summon them from the asteroid belt and then pull them down.

you could just logically extrapolate the moon's creation by the sage by imagining him just compressing enough earthly material that it was the moon as we know it, or did the same thing with space material, but the first one makes more sense since the juubi was on earth when he pwnt it.

the only distinction nagato made was that his chibaku tensei was just a bite-sized version of what the sage was said to do.