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Take any jedi or sith you want to from the movies and do you believe it can or can't destroy his ring of power. Do it.

The Ring can only be undone in the fires of Mount Doom...

A lightsaber can cut the Ring of Power from Sauron's hand, however.

Yes, probably.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
The Ring can only be undone in the fires of Mount Doom...

A lightsaber can cut the Ring of Power from Sauron's hand, however. It's just the ring here. The fires of Mount Doom is a plot device which doesn't take into account other fictional universe's or their items of power. Do you think the saber can successfully do so or do you believe they aren't as powerful as the fires of Mount Doom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's just the ring here. The fires of Mount Doom is a plot device which doesn't take into account other fictional universe's or their items of power. Do you think the saber can successfully do so or do you believe they aren't as powerful as the fires of Mount Doom.

Normal fires couldn't even make the Ring of Power hot.

A lightsaber won't be able to slice the One Ring in half.

A lightsaber is hardly a 'normal fire'. It was melting futuristic blast-doors.

True...it's hard to say really.

Korto is correct.

All a lightsaber is is a plasma blade. Basically, something that is between 2000-15,000 F

It's contained in a "force field".


Based on that, the fact that a fire doesn't even make the ring hot, compound that with the last fact that it was forged in a magical volcano, and it is the most powerful artifact in the second and third age; no, a lightsaber definitely will not cut the ring. Only the place from which it was forged can dissolve the ring...due to magic.


"But...teh no limetz fowelsee!" Magic that is said to only be able to be undone by magic can only be undone by magic especially when we clearly see that that is the case. Invoking the no limits fallacy would be comitting the limits fallacy in this particular example.

I don't think its because of magic. Its because nothing except a volcano would be hot enough.


In fact, since when was Mt. Doom a 'magical volcano?'

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think its because of magic. Its because nothing except a volcano would be hot enough.


In fact, since when was Mt. Doom a 'magical volcano?'

Yes, the volcano is magic.


Didn't you read Fellowship of the Ring?


Here:


http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Mount_Doom



And, do you honestly think that there was only one volcano on all of middle earth?

Yes. Gandalf said Ancalagon the Black could breathe fire hot enough to destroy it. I'm gonna go with heat being the issue, not the correct application of magic molten rock.

A lightsaber could generate enough heat upon contact to cut through it. If heat's the only issue. If it's an issue of magic then... the f*ck's the point of asking?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think its because of magic. Its because nothing except a volcano would be hot enough.


In fact, since when was Mt. Doom a 'magical volcano?'

Well, if you bring the books into this, it was directly stated that in the entirety of all that was in Middle Earth evar, only Mount Doom could destroy the ring, not even Ancalagon the Black (The most powerful dragon to ever live) could not harm the One Ring with his fire.

Even without that though, I doubt a lightsaber could harm the Ring. Everyone is pretty adamant on the fact that the One Ring could only be destroy by the fires of Mount Doom, probably due to some magical crap about how it was forged from there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes. Gandalf said Ancalagon the Black could breathe fire hot enough to destroy it. I'm gonna go with heat being the issue, not the correct application of magic molten rock.

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."

"Hot enough" implies, to me, that it was a matter of heat; not magic.

Was talking about the regular Rings of Power, of which no dragon was left that could melt them. The statement quite clearly states that even these dragons could not melt, or even harm The One Ring.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, the volcano is magic.


Didn't you read Fellowship of the Ring?


Here:


http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Mount_Doom



And, do you honestly think that there was only one volcano on all of middle earth?

Movies only. Wikis don't count.


Point out another volcano.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Was talking about the regular Rings of Power, of which no dragon was left that could melt them. The statement quite clearly states that even these dragons could not melt, or even harm The One Ring.

And you automatically assume a dragons fire is hotter than a lightsaber because..... ?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself." How DARE you provide sourced evidence to correct me!

Woah...woah...woooahhh....


Wait a minute...


Let's be clear that the rings of power are not the One Ring. The rings of power COULD be destroyed by some powerful dragon breathe. But NOT the one ring. It's not a question of "heat" for the one ring. It is only a question of magic, for the one ring. Let's also be clear the dragons were magical creatures created by Melkor: it's likely that the breathe can destroy them because the breathe is ALSO magical. There are also some that believe the dragons are similar to Balrogs: corrupted Maiar.


The reason the One Ring cannot be destroyed but by the magical "fires" of Mount Doom are spelled out for us, quite clearly: Only the One Ring was made by Sauron himself. He made a horcrux....I mean poured some of his soul/essence into the ring. It was forged WITH the magical "fires" of Mount Doom. So only those magical fires could destroy it. The other rings were forged by the Elves with some having instruction from Sauron (did anyone read the Silmarillion?)


As far as I know...only one ring has had a Maiar's soul/essense poured into it: The One Ring. There's a pretty logical reason for why it can't be destroyed but by the very "thing" that made it: a Maiar's soul is immortal and inextinguishable by anything in Ea. I would assume that since Sauron forged the ring with something magical in Ea...only that magical thing could undo it...meaning, he corrupted that portion of his soul by diluting it with "Ea" stuff.

The One Ring was magically created in the fires of Mt. Doom, and can only be unmade by that same fire.

Light Sabers will do dick to the One Ring.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Movies only. Wikis don't count.


Point out another volcano.

This is a question that cannot be answered by movies only. If you go by the movies, "Only" Mount Doom can destroy it. You don't want it to be that way, right?


Hell no: you do it. You're the one making the claim that the problem was heat, only heat was needed, and only Mount Doom had the heat to accomplish it. Your claim, you back it up. That's fairly simple.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is a question that cannot be answered by movies only. If you go by the movies, "Only" Mount Doom can destroy it. You don't want it to be that way, right?


Hell no: you do it. You're the one making the claim that the problem was heat, only heat was needed, and only Mount Doom had the heat to accomplish it. Your claim, you back it up. That's fairly simple.


Actually if we go by the movies we have Gandalf claiming only Mount Doom can destroy it. Since Gandalf is not omniscient he could be and likely was wrong about this. Or it could be that the Council of Elrond simlpy did not have anything powerful or hot enough to destroy it. Which they did not.

I don't need to point out that there was no other volcano, because that would be asking me to prove a negative. However, there are none on any of the maps of middle earth. So there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually if we go by the movies we have Gandalf claiming only Mount Doom can destroy it. Since Gandalf is not omniscient he could be and likely was wrong about this. Or it could be that the Council of Elrond simlpy did not have anything powerful or hot enough to destroy it. Which they did not.


lol!


So you're going to use the method of "he's not God, so he can't know for sure" argument? In that case, the Mod told us how it is and so it is. He's God in here, so there's your answer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't need to point out that there was no other volcano, because that would be asking me to prove a negative. However, there are none on any of the maps of middle earth. So there.

No, you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?

I'm not asking you to prove that no other volcanos exist: I'm asking you to prove that other volcanos exist.

If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right.

Originally posted by dadudemon
lol!


So you're going to use the method of "he's not God, so he can't know for sure" argument? In that case, the Mod told us how it is and so it is. He's God in here, so there's your answer.

Haha, no. Impediment gave his opinion on the thread. I must have missed the part where Mods opinions are irrefutable law on forum fights.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?

I don't know why I would try to prove that there are other volcano's given that I pretty heavily implied I didn't think there were other ones. And you have it backwards. If I prove that theres no other volcanos except Mount Doom then that proves that Saron didn't forge it in there because it was a 'magical volcano' (again, lol), but because it was a volcano period.

Now prove Mount Doom was magical.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not asking you to prove that no other volcanos exist: I'm asking you to prove that other volcanos exist.


No you're not.

'And, do you honestly think that there was only one volcano on all of middle earth?'

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right.

Are you drunk or just incredibly stupid?


Why would I prove myself wrong?

Movie canon proves everything.

Elrond specifically stated that "only in the fires of Mt. Doom can the ring be unmade."

/thread.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Volcano

Also, for proof that Mount Doom was not a natural volcano, you may have missed the part where, when the One Ring was finally destroyed, all of Mordor, including Mount Doom, went BSoD.

Originally posted by Impediment
Movie canon proves everything.

Elrond specifically stated that "only in the fires of Mt. Doom can the ring be unmade."

/thread.


Elrond also thought it was a good idea sending Boromir along. estahuh

Boromir was a lunatic in denial.

Originally posted by Impediment
Movie canon proves everything.

Elrond specifically stated that "only in the fires of Mt. Doom can the ring be unmade."

/thread. Boromir also soecifically said that infiltrating Mordor and destroying the ring in Mt. Doom was impossible.

Therefore everything that happened after that is non-canon, as it would be a contradiction of what he said, right?

Boromir's claims were bravado. They walked into Mordor.

Elrond is as old as time. His logic seems much, much more plausible.

I see no reason to argue.

/thread.

His logic doesn't take into account lightsabers. They don't have anything that hot so he can't know it wouldn't work.

Lightsabers are not magic.

Elrond states irrefutable proof.

Magic volcano = ring death.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg131/Deltacod/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

Originally posted by Impediment
Boromir's claims were bravado. They walked into Mordor.

Elrond is as old as time. His logic seems much, much more plausible.

I see no reason to argue.

/thread. His logic "seeming" more valuable is irrelevant. He's not omniscient; he doesn't know everything, therefore his statements are suspect. This is a debate. Half assed statements like "well he seems-" have no place here. Just the facts, sir.

Besides, if you really want to go that route, Sarumon, who is basically an "angel" in a man's body, stated that no one could defeat him and Sauron, and that Frodo was doomed to fail.

So by your logic. Saurumon's statements are "irrefutable proof", and since he's older and more powerful than Elrond, his statements hold the most weight.

Therefore The Two Towers and Return of the King are non-canon. Frodo never destroyed the ring because, by Saurumon's words, that would be an impossibility.

Or we can put the bullshit away and just all admit that the words of fallible characters are just that, fallible, and have no place in a debate. Word?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Haha, no. Impediment gave his opinion on the thread. I must have missed the part where Mods opinions are irrefutable law on forum fights.

1. This isn't a fight.
2. He cited direct quotes from the movies as evidence.
3. As you can see further down in the thread, it is not really debatable.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know why I would try to prove that there are other volcano's given that I pretty heavily implied I didn't think there were other ones.

I know this.


However, you COULD prove you point by also proving that there is only one Volcano in all of middle earth.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you have it backwards. If I prove that theres no other volcanos except Mount Doom

Then my point would still be right, no matter what you came up with...which you know already.

However, it would lead your argument a bit more credibility: the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.




Originally posted by Nephthys
then that proves that Saron didn't forge it in there because it was a 'magical volcano' (again, lol), but because it was a volcano period.


Uhhh...no. That's absurdly non-sequitur of you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Now prove Mount Doom was magical.
Already did. Suck it.




Originally posted by Nephthys
No you're not.

I didn't even bother reading what you said this to because no matter what it is, it contradicts me and everything I stated is correct (minus the portions where I'm clearly speculating...)



Originally posted by Nephthys
'And, do you honestly think that there was only one volcano on all of middle earth?'

I see what you're saying, now.

You missed the point entirely...and that's just hilarious because I clearly explained my direction in the post you are responding to.

You forgot about this part:

"you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?"

"If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right."



Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you drunk or just incredibly stupid?


Why would I prove myself wrong?


You're obviously both because I was quite clear:


"you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?"

"If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right."



You're the one claiming that it was just the heat needed (obviously wrong and incontestable by movie canon) so you just need to prove that Mount Doom was the only volcano so you can prove your point.


I also like how you twisted my words into "I can't prove a negative...rawr!" lol No, you're not proving a negative, you're proving that Mount Doom was unique in middle earth.



Back on topic, you're just plain wrong because I KNOW that there are other Volcanoes in the LotR universe. You don't want to try and prove your point about just needing a volcano for heat because you'd end up proving yourself horribly wrong on all accounts. So why would a person want to prove himself wrong?


Simple: Read #1 for why we even went down this path (hint, it applies to you)

http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think_p2.html

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Normal fires couldn't even make the Ring of Power hot.

A lightsaber won't be able to slice the One Ring in half. I don't think it could do so either but I'm a fair and benevolent quan so I created the thread.

What exactly is a "quan" and what constitutes a quan being "far and benevolent" since you are completely opposite of that huhu?

Originally posted by Impediment
Lightsabers are not magic.

Elrond states irrefutable proof.

Magic volcano = ring death. Yes they are.

The Star Wars movies had several inconsistencies as to what the light saber could cut through.

When Luke fought Vader in Empire (on Bespin, before he lost his hand), the light sabers would hit metal railings & just spark up.

In Jedi, the light sabers clearly cut through metal railings.

Those rails were magic protected.

Originally posted by Impediment
Movie canon proves everything.

Elrond specifically stated that "only in the fires of Mt. Doom can the ring be unmade."

/thread.

I disagree with this.

Elrond said what he thought to be true.

It may well have been virtually indestructible in his universe, but could possibly be destroyed by other means:

- A power greater than Sauron, he didn't know about.

- Physical powers he did not know about, e.g The heat of the sun, a Black Hole.

- In the same vein Greater physical powers outside of LOTRU Elrond had not even contemplated, e.g PC Superman.

- Greater magical powers outside the LOTR Universe.


In conclusion, what a character claims in a film, may not be the be all and end all in MVF.

That said, I do believe that the level of magic that protects the ring would've been very high, enough to protect it from the heat of a light saber.

The thing about magic is sometimes people assume it transcends everything. When you consider the whole movie multiverse, then that belief becomes quite dubious. Magic has its limits too IMO, even against physical forces great enough. The Juggernaut is a good example. He is powered by magic and is likely believed to be "unstoppable", but we know he has been stopped, by magical powers greater than he, or physical forces that surpass the limits of his magic. The only thing I would say is supreme with certainty would be an omniscient, omnipotent being - i.e God.

The LotR films make it clear that heat is not an issue--it's never specified. Only Mount Doom implies only a certain location/method.


It's the novels that imply heat. This being the movie forum, I'd say a lightsaber isn't Doomy enough to cut through it.

Truthfully, I don't care.

I was a little bit drunk when I posted all of that.

Man, I came off like a total RJ, didn't I?!

Originally posted by Korto Vos
What exactly is a "quan" and what constitutes a quan being "far and benevolent" since you are completely opposite of that huhu? A quan is happens once in an entire generation. He leads by example and doesn't ever give into peer pressure. He fights for what is right and may come off as a bit harsh for all his subjects benefits.Originally posted by Placidity
I disagree with this.

Elrond said what he thought to be true.

It may well have been virtually indestructible in his universe, but could possibly be destroyed by other means:

- A power greater than Sauron, he didn't know about.

- Physical powers he did not know about, e.g The heat of the sun, a Black Hole.

- In the same vein Greater physical powers outside of LOTRU Elrond had not even contemplated, e.g PC Superman.

- Greater magical powers outside the LOTR Universe.


In conclusion, what a character claims in a film, may not be the be all and end all in MVF.

That said, I do believe that the level of magic that protects the ring would've been very high, enough to protect it from the heat of a light saber.

The thing about magic is sometimes people assume it transcends everything. When you consider the whole movie multiverse, then that belief becomes quite dubious. Magic has its limits too IMO, even against physical forces great enough. The Juggernaut is a good example. He is powered by magic and is likely believed to be "unstoppable", but we know he has been stopped, by magical powers greater than he, or physical forces that surpass the limits of his magic. The only thing I would say is supreme with certainty would be an omniscient, omnipotent being - i.e God. I pretty much agree with this post and have always supported the idea just because in the lotr universe only mount doom can destroy it this doesn't necessarily count for all other movie universes. With that being said I still don't believe it cuts through the magical ring based on Gandalf's power in the movies and his acceptance of not being able to destroy it yet slay a Balrog.

I think the saber can cut through metal railways but can't cut through this. It's just an opinion type thread there's no real way to prove or disprove it. Entirely subjective.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He fights for what is right Do you hear that? That's the sound of a thousand logical fallacies heading this way.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Do you hear that? That's the sound of a thousand logical fallacies heading this way. I hear sweet justice being delivered from on high every time I post.

Magical protections and stipulations > all. The One Ring can only be destroyed by a very specific means(unless Gandalf was lying?); a lightsabre wasn't it.

Korto and then DDM had it right.

Originally posted by Placidity
I disagree with this.

Elrond said what he thought to be true.

It may well have been virtually indestructible in his universe, but could possibly be destroyed by other means:

- A power greater than Sauron, he didn't know about.

- Physical powers he did not know about, e.g The heat of the sun, a Black Hole.

- In the same vein Greater physical powers outside of LOTRU Elrond had not even contemplated, e.g PC Superman.

- Greater magical powers outside the LOTR Universe.


In conclusion, what a character claims in a film, may not be the be all and end all in MVF.

That said, I do believe that the level of magic that protects the ring would've been very high, enough to protect it from the heat of a light saber.

The thing about magic is sometimes people assume it transcends everything. When you consider the whole movie multiverse, then that belief becomes quite dubious. Magic has its limits too IMO, even against physical forces great enough. The Juggernaut is a good example. He is powered by magic and is likely believed to be "unstoppable", but we know he has been stopped, by magical powers greater than he, or physical forces that surpass the limits of his magic. The only thing I would say is supreme with certainty would be an omniscient, omnipotent being - i.e God.

This commits the limits fallacy.

It is applying limits to the durability to the ring that did not exist, at all. Arbitrarily applying or implying baseless limits have no solid ground and cannot be used in any reasonable discussion. For the purposes of the MVF, the only thing usable is Mount Doom.

In a place that is not a versus forum, you can baseless speculate.


Edit - Your post would have a place if you start a thread with "Assume that a lightsaber can cut the One Ring"... Obviously, that's not supportable with any sort of facts...but it is a potential way to start a thread.

Yea I believe so.

Strangly I don't think Impediment was the only frunk person last night.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. This isn't a fight.

And yet it is in the versus forum.

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. He cited direct quotes from the movies as evidence.

Which has been refuted.

Originally posted by dadudemon
3. As you can see further down in the thread, it is not really debatable.

Yes is it, hence why we are debating it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I know this.


However, you COULD prove you point by also proving that there is only one Volcano in all of middle earth.

Then why ask me to prove the exact opposite?

'No, you need to point out that there IS another volcano'

Again I voice my suspicions that you were inebriated.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then my point would still be right, no matter what you came up with...which you know already.

However, it would lead your argument a bit more credibility: the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.

No you wouldn't be and no I don't. I'm not the kind to argue just for the sake of arguing when its obvious I can't win. You are wrong here, hence our disagreement.

Indeed.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Uhhh...no. That's absurdly non-sequitur of you.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg131/Deltacod/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

That is exactly what you said.

'the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)

'Sauron didn't forge it in there because it was a 'magical volcano' (again, lol), but because it was a volcano period.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)


Originally posted by dadudemon
Already did. Suck it.

Gandalf or Elrond's opinions are not proof, you cretin. This has been explained in the thread very succintly by The Dread Lord Blax.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't even bother reading what you said this to because no matter what it is, it contradicts me and everything I stated is correct (minus the portions where I'm clearly speculating...)


http://www.natreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/thumbs_up_bciy.jpg

Ok, now I know you're trolling.


Originally posted by dadudemon
I see what you're saying, now.

You missed the point entirely...and that's just hilarious because I clearly explained my direction in the post you are responding to.

You forgot about this part:

"you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?"

"If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right."

Again I find myself bewildered as to your contradictions and questioning as to your state of mind. Please Great DDM, explain to this humble servant in small words the meaning behind your heady logic. I fear my tiny peasant brain is not up to the task of understanding it presently.

What I'm getting is:

1) I need to prove there IS other volcano's.

2) This will prove that any volcano would have done, not just Mount Doom.

3) This will prove me wrong and you right.

4) But if I prove that there aren't any volcano's I might still be right.





Originally posted by dadudemon
You're obviously both because I was quite clear:


"you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?"

"If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right."

8mNDmrwOChk

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're the one claiming that it was just the heat needed (obviously wrong and incontestable by movie canon) so you just need to prove that Mount Doom was the only volcano so you can prove your point.

Its the only one on the map that we see at the start of Fellowship of the Ring and its the only one we see all through the movies. Therefore it is the only volcano seen in the Lord of the Rings movies. Therefore it is the only volcano known.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I also like how you twisted my words into "I can't prove a negative...rawr!" lol No, you're not proving a negative, you're proving that Mount Doom was unique in middle earth.

Well no, your logic is flawed here. You see, its impossibe to prove definitively that something does not exist. Have you ever heard of the Flying Spagetti Monster, and the argument behind it? Its the same basic principle. If I can't prove that other volcano's don't exist then they MUST exist. This is a logical fallacy. I can't prove that theres no other volcano's beyond pointing you to a map. However, since there is no evidence of other volcano's other than Mount Doom, I win automatically.

We know Mount Doom exists. We don't know whether or not other volcano's exist. We can neither prove that they do or do not. Therefore the entire possibility of other volcano's is a moot point. So I win.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Back on topic, you're just plain wrong because I KNOW that there are other Volcanoes in the LotR universe.

Well I KNOW there aren't. SO THERE! NEENER NEENER NEENER!

'Knowing' that your right, is not acceptable evidence in a debate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You don't want to try and prove your point about just needing a volcano for heat because you'd end up proving yourself horribly wrong on all accounts. So why would a person want to prove himself wrong?

I ask myself that while trying to look at your retarded-ass arguments.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Simple: Read #1 for why we even went down this path (hint, it applies to you)

http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think_p2.html


aAM8iz4QJgI&feature=related

This is a non-fight.

The ring melted quickly in the fires of Mt Doom. But withstood attempts of man to dent it. It is obviously magic.

It resisted an axe.

CLEARLY IT IS INVINCIBLE!

Originally posted by Nephthys
It resisted an axe.

CLEARLY IT IS INVINCIBLE!

You're being difficult, and that wasn't his point; you know that.

-The ring has shown to not heat up to what we can safely assume was a normal wood fire.

-The ring was completely unharmed by a blow from an axe and also caused a small explosion or shock as a result, if iirc.

-Gandalf specifically said it had to be destroyed where it was forged. Not "any volcano will do."

-It was destroyed in a couple minutes in a volcano, the volcano where it was forged.

Those four points tell us that the ring has special resistances and stipulations on how it can be destroyed and they don't support a "just apply X amount of heat" angle .

ie Lightsabre > volcano won't do it here, considering we're dealing with magic.

I find it interesting that people continue to argue againgst my post that even in the Movie Multiverse, "Mount Doom" is the only thing that can destroy the Ring. Clearly some people did not grasp the logic I was putting across.

So, for example, the greatest magicians and skyfather/transcedent level beings (who could blink Sauron out of existence) from the comics couldn't undo the ring?

An even more irrefutable example which I already mentioned - a omnipotent depiction of God from another film, couldn't undo the ring? Please.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Strangly I don't think Impediment was the only frunk person last night.

derpy derpy doooo! peaches



Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet it is in the versus forum..


And yet, this doesn't contradict what I said.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Which has been refuted.

Which it has not been refuted in any legitimate way. Do better than "nuh uhhh".



Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes is it, hence why we are debating it.

Not it isn't: we have a bunch of haters being idiots which is why there are posts. It is not debateable but only to those who are being willfully ignorant. derpy derpy dooo!



Originally posted by Nephthys
Then why ask me to prove the exact opposite?.



I didn't. Suck it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'No, you need to point out that there IS another volcano'

Again I voice my suspicions that you were inebriated?


You are creating a false delima and I've explained how. Try harder, please.


Originally posted by Nephthys
No you wouldn't be and no I don't. I'm not the kind to argue just for the sake of arguing when its obvious I can't win. You are wrong here, hence our disagreement.

Indeed.

Yes I would and you do because you've proven so in pasts post at me.


Originally posted by Nephthys
That is exactly what you said.

'the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)

'Sauron didn't forge it in there because it was a 'magical volcano' (again, lol), but because it was a volcano period.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)


Please troll harder:

When I am representing your argument, you cannot try and pass it off as my argument.

Please go back and read the entire section you have taken out of context:


You said:


"I don't know why I would try to prove that there are other volcano's given that I pretty heavily implied I didn't think there were other ones."

To which I said:

"Then my point would still be right, no matter what you came up with...which you know already.

However, it would lead your argument a bit more credibility: the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano."

To make it clearer for you....

You want to why you should prove that there are other volcanoes or just the one volcano.


Your argument could be supported in the following way IF you did so because..."the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano."

That position is not true, which I already knew from the onset. However, you asked "why" and I told you why.

So, please, leave the trolling to the trolls and think a bit more before you post someone's words.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Gandalf or Elrond's opinions are not proof, you cretin. This has been explained in the thread very succintly by The Dread Lord Blax.


They are proof and it was confirmed. If you want to hold the position that something hot enough, when Gandalf clearly explained that not even the most powerful dragon's breath could undo the ring (but only Mount Doom), go ahead: it's a baseless position to contradict the canon books.

It's also baselesss to say, "Derpy do! Lite Saberz totally reckers teh ring! dur" since that contradicts actual canon in both the movies and the books. Heat is not sufficient: only the fires of Mount Doom are...because Mount Doom is magical and ALSO magically tied to Sauron.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, now I know you're trolling.

No, it's the truth. At that point in the thread, there was no legitimate way to contradict me EXCEPT for the very explicit portions that I had speculated.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Again I find myself bewildered as to your contradictions and questioning as to your state of mind.

Look, another "you're an idiot and drunk" joke. It wasn't funny the first time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please Great DDM, explain to this humble servant in small words the meaning behind your heady logic. I fear my tiny peasant brain is not up to the task of understanding it presently.

That much is obvious.

What I'm getting is:

Originally posted by Nephthys
1) I need to prove there IS other volcano's.


I will throw you one and only one bone:


thangorodrim.


Originally posted by Nephthys
2) This will prove that any volcano would have done, not just Mount Doom.

That's up to you, not me.

We already have "proof" that only the fires of Mount Doom can undo the one ring because that's where Sauron forged it (aka, magical volcano that is magically tied to the ring).

Originally posted by Nephthys
3) This will prove me wrong and you right.

It will not: you've been proven wrong, already, without the need of invoking other volcanoes, which the burden is on YOU to do, not me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
4) But if I prove that there aren't any volcano's I might still be right.

No, you'd still be wrong. I just said that your position my be more credible if there were other volcanos: it is still wrong, however.





Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the only one on the map that we see at the start of Fellowship of the Ring and its the only one we see all through the movies. Therefore it is the only volcano seen in the Lord of the Rings movies. Therefore it is the only volcano known.


Because that map covers the entirety of the entire Earth, right? dur

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well no, your logic is flawed here. You see, its impossibe to prove definitively that something does not exist..

Wrong: by proving that Mount Doom is unique, you have proven the position of 'no other volcanoes exist and Mount Doom HAD to be used". Proving uniqueness is not proving "nothing."


That burden was on you because YOU'RE the one that claimed "any ol' Volcano could have worked, dewd!" O really? Prove that Mount Doom was the ONLY Volcano in Middle-Earth.

In order to hold that position, you would have to have proven that it was the only Volcano around. It obviously was not. Why go through the ultra-hard journey through Mordor if they could have just taken a much easier path to another Volcano? "Because it was farther away, RAWR!" But that still does not answer the question I posed: it would have been far easier to travel 1000 miles; to an easy to reach, unprotected by tens of thousand of enemy troops, and the all seeing Eye of Sauron; than it would to have travled the hundreds of miles that the hobbits did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Have you ever heard of the Flying Spagetti Monster, and the argument behind it? Its the same basic principle. If I can't prove that other volcano's don't exist then they MUST exist. This is a logical fallacy. I can't prove that theres no other volcano's beyond pointing you to a map. However, since there is no evidence of other volcano's other than Mount Doom, I win automatically.

See previous arguments for why you fail.


The position was never to prove that no volcanoes exist. It was to prove that Mount Doom was the only one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We know Mount Doom exists. We don't know whether or not other volcano's exist. We can neither prove that they do or do not. Therefore the entire possibility of other volcano's is a moot point. So I win.

See previous arguments for why you fail.


The position was never to prove that no volcanoes exist. It was to prove that Mount Doom was the only one.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I KNOW there aren't. SO THERE! NEENER NEENER NEENER!


You're wrong, suck it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Knowing' that your right, is not acceptable evidence in a debate.

In my case, it is. In your case, it is not.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I ask myself that while trying to look at your retarded-ass arguments.

You mean what you thought were "retarded-ass arguments" but were actually inexorable facts that you did not realize you could not contend with...but did so in blind futility.

Originally posted by Placidity
So, for example, the greatest magicians and skyfather/transcedent level beings (who could blink Sauron out of existence) from the comics couldn't undo the ring?

Correct.

Neither could they make Sauron not exist.

The powers are over their creation/multiverse, not this one.



You'd be making the claim that one "God" is more powerful than another "God".


Sauron is not destroyable: he is immortal. His soul/essence is only destroyable by his own God...and that is not even proven as we do not know of any Valar/Maiar that are permanently destroyable...they just move on to other planes when killed in Ea.

The ring is virtually a horcrux: it has only once place it can be destroyed.


That God from another universe could destroy it by teleporting it to Mount Doom or Mount Doom to it....boom...solved.

That's assuming they would even be granted power outside of their own multiverse, however. What makes you think that their powers are preserved in other Gods' realms?

Originally posted by Placidity
An even more irrefutable example which I already mentioned - a omnipotent depiction of God from another film, couldn't undo the ring? Please.

Correct.

An omnipotent being from another multiverse is magically omnipotent in a a multiverse that He or She is not part of?

Please.



Your position is unsupportable and it commits a no limits fallacy (lol). You presume that their powers have any place in a universe that they are not the supreme god of. On what grounds? Why are they preserved? Would that not be up to the discretion of the Supreme Creator of the mulitverse they step into? How did they get there? Why do you presume that the God of one multiverse is also God of another?


What you REALLY mean to say is this:

If the thread starter says that their powers are intact, then they can do whatever they want. It's all about the OP.



Case in point: Neo, The Matrix, and The Trainman. Neo wasn't the god in another "universe". The Trainman was God in his universe and he made that quite clear to Neo who tried to fight against him.

I miss RJ

Originally posted by dadudemon

Correct.

An omnipotent being from another multiverse is magically omnipotent in a a multiverse that He or She is not part of?

Please.



Your position is unsupportable and it commits a no limits fallacy (lol). You presume that their powers have any place in a universe that they are not the supreme god of. On what grounds? Why are they preserved? Would that not be up to the discretion of the Supreme Creator of the mulitverse they step into? How did they get there? Why do you presume that the God of one multiverse is also God of another?


Wrong.

Sauron is not an omnipotent being, nor is he a God, that much is clear. If we were considering two Supreme beings clashing, then you would have a point. However, my examples show an obvious and huge difference in the level of powers.

Its funny you mention no limits fallacy, because that is exactly what you have committed. Let me ask you this, could the "God" INSIDE the LOTRU destroy the Ring?

The point is when non omniscient people like Elrond make claims, they are only making claims based on the best of their knowledge, whether that is based in science, magic or anything else does not matter.

It would be the same as Stryker saying adamantium is indestructible. He is saying that best to his knowledge and what the science of his age has shown. Does that mean it is FACT? No, especially when there are forces that he had not even contemplated or could even comprehend when he or other scientists when concluded it was indestructible. 8th Day Juggernaut FROM THE SAME X-men Universe would snap adamantium in half (punches through dimensions).

Again, the main point is the claimer is NOT omniscient, it has nothing to do with powers being preserved across multiverses, quite frankly I don't see how you could have twisted my arguments into something so unrecognizable.

If you applied some simple logic you would understand what I am saying - just because someone says something he believes is true, does not necessarily mean it is unless the character is omniscient. That also doesn't mean it can't be true. That IS the point.

How the f*ck did this easy question turn in to a dozen-point-by-point debate?

Sauron could be destroyed DDD, just the concept of evil itself as personified by his boss Melkor/Morgoth would remain in existence until the Final Battle (think Ragnarok meets the Christian concept of the Final Judgment) whereupon Beren, a simple human, would slay him once and for all.

You don't need to be an omnipotent being to unmake an artifact made by a being who has no feats to suggest he's even on the level of someone like Dr Strange...

I personally don't think that the lightsaber would harm the ring. But I'm not going to try to base this on any logical principle, any "no-limits" or "limits" fallacy.

I just feel like the Ring>Lightsaber and if that isn't sufficient I'll just point out that within its own Universe the lightsaber is not an end-all-be-all cutting tool and there are several materials that can frustrate or outright defeat it.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sauron could be destroyed DDD, just the concept of evil itself as personified by his boss Melkor/Morgoth would remain in existence until the Final Battle (think Ragnarok meets the Christian concept of the Final Judgment) whereupon Beren, a simple human, would slay him once and for all.


It was Turin, not Beren ;P

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
It was Turin, not Beren ;P
*fails*

Point remains. Tolkien himself did not drink DDD's 'only an omnipotent can destroy Morgoth/Sauron' Cool Aid awesome

Originally posted by dadudemon
derpy derpy doooo! peaches

Indeed. That is the metaphorical representation of your post last night. Well done, nice awareness.


Originally posted by dadudemon
And yet, this doesn't contradict what I said.

Who said I was trying to contradict you? In fact, the term 'and yet' indicates agreement.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Which it has not been refuted in any legitimate way. Do better than "nuh uhhh".

Do you expect me to reply to your one sentence 'nuh uhhh' with anything but a similar (but ultimately far superior and infinately wittier) 'nuh uhhh'?


Originally posted by dadudemon
Not it isn't: we have a bunch of haters being idiots which is why there are posts. It is not debateable but only to those who are being willfully ignorant. derpy derpy dooo!

A bunch of haters? In what way do you think I 'hate' LotR, especialy since the third movie is my 18th favourite movie of all time? And it is very debateable. The concept of whether fallible characters can be taken at their word on certain matters is one which is worth much debate.


Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't. Suck it.

Oh my, what childlike purity in your words. You are an inspiration.


Originally posted by dadudemon
You are creating a false delima and I've explained how. Try harder, please.

How is this a false dilemma? Either there a other volcano's or not. Perhaps next time you should look up what a false dilemma actual is before posting.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes I would and you do because you've proven so in pasts post at me.

You'll need to cite when I've done this in my pasts posts at to you.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Please troll harder:

When I am representing your argument, you cannot try and pass it off as my argument.

I'm not trying to pass anything of as anything other than what was intended at the time I wrote it, my intention being, if you are in need of clarification, to say that 'sauron didn't forge it there because it was a magical volcano, but because it was a volcano period the only volcano.'

That was the original intent. If my words have caused your feeble plebeian brain some degree of confusion then I offer my sincerest apologies. That what not my intent.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Please go back and read the entire section you have taken out of context:


You said:


"I don't know why I would try to prove that there are other volcano's given that I pretty heavily implied I didn't think there were other ones."

To which I said:

"Then my point would still be right, no matter what you came up with...which you know already.

However, it would lead your argument a bit more credibility: the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano."

To make it clearer for you....

You want to why you should prove that there are other volcanoes or just the one volcano.


Your argument could be supported in the following way IF you did so because..."the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano."

That position is not true, which I already knew from the onset. However, you asked "why" and I told you why.

So, please, leave the trolling to the trolls and think a bit more before you post someone's words.

Too long, didn't read.

I'm still waiting for you to prove there are other volcano's.

Originally posted by dadudemon
They are proof and it was confirmed.

No they are not, they are opinion.

How could either know that the Ring could stand up to a lightsaber when they've never seen one? How could they possibly know that it could not be destroyed by anything except Mount Doom when the only things they've tried has been a small Hobbits fire and a ****ing axe?


Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to hold the position that something hot enough, when Gandalf clearly explained that not even the most powerful dragon's breath could undo the ring (but only Mount Doom), go ahead: it's a baseless position to contradict the canon books.

Not canon here.


The MVF Golden Rule:
What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!



Originally posted by dadudemon
It's also baselesss to say, "Derpy do! Lite Saberz totally reckers teh ring! dur" since that contradicts actual canon in both the movies and the books. Heat is not sufficient: only the fires of Mount Doom are...because Mount Doom is magical and ALSO magically tied to Sauron.

No, it only contradicts what Gandalf and Elrond said.

And yu have yet to prove a single facet of the above. Proof heat is not sufficient? Proof Mount Doom is magical? Proof Mount Doom is tied to Sauron. All you've offered so far is things the the novels and a freaking wiki page. Up your game DDM, I know you can do better than this. sneer

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, it's the truth. At that point in the thread, there was no legitimate way to contradict me EXCEPT for the very explicit portions that I had speculated.

Blah Blah. You bleat like a castrated goat.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Look, another "you're an idiot and drunk" joke. It wasn't funny the first time.

And here I thought jokes got funnier over time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That much is obvious.

Internets is serius buzines.

Originally posted by dadudemon
What I'm getting is:




I will throw you one and only one bone:


thangorodrim.

Whats that, something that doesn't appear in the movie? Oh well.


Originally posted by dadudemon
That's up to you, not me.

We already have "proof" that only the fires of Mount Doom can undo the one ring because that's where Sauron forged it (aka, magical volcano that is magically tied to the ring).

You have absolutely nothing. Don't expect another reply unless you up your game. You wont get another chance.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It will not: you've been proven wrong, already, without the need of invoking other volcanoes, which the burden is on YOU to do, not me.

I have not been proven wrong. You have not proven anything as of yet. This is embarrasing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, you'd still be wrong. I just said that your position my be more credible if there were other volcanos: it is still wrong, however.

You contradict yourself again. How quaint.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Because that map covers the entirety of the entire Earth, right? dur

The entirity that was shown in the movies, yes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong: by proving that Mount Doom is unique, you have proven the position of 'no other volcanoes exist and Mount Doom HAD to be used". Proving uniqueness is not proving "nothing."

Yes it is. You can only prove something is unique by proving that no dublicates of it exist. Therefore you are asking me to prove a negatoive. Spare me your fumbling attempts to grasp basic logic and simply conceed.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That burden was on you because YOU'RE the one that claimed "any ol' Volcano could have worked, dewd!" O really? Prove that Mount Doom was the ONLY Volcano in Middle-Earth.

That you ask me to present proof while presenting none yourself is most amusing. At this rate I fear you'll run out of courage juice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In order to hold that position, you would have to have proven that it was the only Volcano around. It obviously was not. Why go through the ultra-hard journey through Mordor if they could have just taken a much easier path to another Volcano?

Present another volcano.




Originally posted by dadudemon
See previous arguments for why you fail.


The position was never to prove that no volcanoes exist. It was to prove that Mount Doom was the only one.



See previous arguments for why you fail.


The position was never to prove that no volcanoes exist. It was to prove that Mount Doom was the only one.


no u



Originally posted by dadudemon
You're wrong, suck it.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif

Your winner!

Originally posted by dadudemon
In my case, it is. In your case, it is not.


Laughable.


Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean what you thought were "retarded-ass arguments" but were actually inexorable facts that you did not realize you could not contend with...but did so in blind futility.

Spare me your posturing, you weary me.

I can only hope your reply can do better, or else you have the good sense not to reply.

My understanding is that Mount Doom shared a mystical connection with the ring because it was forged there and thus it could be destroyed there.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that any old volcano would do the job.

Neph, Thangorodrim in the Silmarillion was basically a series of volcanoes protecting Morgoth's lair.

Of course, they were destroyed by the time of 2nd Age, but regardless, Mount Doom isn't the only volcano in the world.

My understanding is 'shoosh.'


Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Neph, Thangrodrim in the Silmarillion was basically a series of volcanoes protecting Morgoth's lair.

Of course, they were destroyed by the time of 2nd Age, but regardless, Mount Doom isn't the only volcano in the world.

Movies only.

I'm rules lawyering this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Movies only.

I'm rules lawyering this.

Well, Morgoth is referenced in the film. ermm

Which implies that the events of the Silmarillion, and the geography of Beleriand are canon, even to the films.

Morgoth merely being mentioned doesn't make the books and all the backstory canon or subvert the movie feats only rule.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/269/2/8/eleven_and_craigh_shoosh_pap_by_taconaco-d4b234o.jpg

Shoosh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whats that, something that doesn't appear in the movie? Oh well.

lulz




Originally posted by Nephthys
You have absolutely nothing. Don't expect another reply unless you up your game. You wont get another chance.


No, it is you that has nothing.




Originally posted by Nephthys
I have not been proven wrong. You have not proven anything as of yet. This is embarrasing..




You have been.

In both the context of the movie and in the books: you just can't deal with it.


You are hiding behind fallacies, now: ZOMG! Liek u totally! Immortal characters and wizards are not infallible!

You'll have to do better.



Originally posted by Nephthys
You contradict yourself again. How quaint.

I didn't: go back and read those words. I actually said "more credible" but I'd still be right. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it?



Originally posted by Nephthys
The entirity that was shown in the movies, yes.

This is not about just the movies, actually.

This was never just about the movies and that's quite clear.

You've back peddled and are not using the "movies only plez" to hide.

That still does not work: the movies are worse on your position than the books.





And, no, we only saw part of one continent in the movies.

Nice try?

Nah. It wasn't even that.






Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes it is. You can only prove something is unique by proving that no dublicates of it exist. Therefore you are asking me to prove a negatoive. Spare me your fumbling attempts to grasp basic logic and simply conceed.

No, I'm asking you to prove a positve: prove that only one exists.

You can manipulate my words all you want, but it's not going to fly.


Prove that there is only one. That is your posiition, not mine. You claim that any volcano would do. That's wrong.

But I was kind and asked you to prove that Mount Doom was unique as far as volcanoes are concerned.


That was also a wrong position to hold because I ALREADY KNEW that other volcanoes existed in Middle-Earth (ergo, why I prefaced my point about "I'd still be right".

On top of that, this is not the same thing as finding a needle in a haystack.


It's not the same thing as proving a negative, even a little. Prove that there is only one giant ****ing mountian that spews hot fire and smoke is not the same thing as "liek, ZOMG! you want me to prove a negative! WEEEEE! It's impossible! RAAAWWR!"


The position that you can pretend it's like proving a negative is not tenible, even slightly.

I never asked you to prove, "lol. Dude..prove that something I have never seen, heard, tasted, or touched, does not exist...but I hold as existing."


But, it was hilarious that you attempted to invoke the "can't prove a negative....lalalalalaalalalal".


Okay, great. Still prove that Mount Doom was unique (you can't, didn't, and are wrong).


But movies only, man! MOVIES ONLY! RAAAAWWWWR!


Kay.


So here's how your position boils down: no other volcanoes exist because I know everything about the movie version of Middle-Earth. They can destroy it in any volcano because heat alone is required. Therefore, lightsabers cut the One Ring because they are thousands of degrees.


My position is: Other volcanoes exist within the mythos (obvious point is obvious...because it's Earth). Sauron is magically tied to a magical volcano. It can only be destroyed there because Sauron created it with the magic of the volcano and his own...and poured his soul into it.




But you presume omniscience for a universe that is not fully created. This is the counter argument to the atheist position that no God exists, by the way. In order for you to hold the position that no God exists, you must know every last bit of information that is in the multiverse and THEN some. It is impossible to do, so it is impossible to know that God does not exist.


How does that apply to the One Ring (because you're reading comprehension skills are so lacking, I have to explain metaphors to you): you implicitely claim omniscience by holding the position that only the heat of a volcan is required. That means you KNOW that no other volcanoes existed and that ANY volcano would have done but one does not exist to do so: they were left with only Mount Doom.

It just so happens that I have more information about that fictional universe that makes you wrong in holding such a position: other volcanoes (magical ones, even..the same as Mount Doom teehee) exist.

Thanks for playing, though.

You can dismiss whatever you like, but it is your position that is not tenable and baseless.



Originally posted by Nephthys
That you ask me to present proof while presenting none yourself is most amusing. At this rate I fear you'll run out of courage juice.



Present another volcano.



You're right, I've been totally pwned.



So, since you'll hide behind the "not in the movies" position, there's not point in discussing this with you further.



However, you make the faulty of mistake of "I know everything about the movie universe and no other volcanoes exist". That's your implicit argument and obviously cannot be sustained.

Your use of rules gheyness does not amuse me. estahuh

But if you're going to be a ***** like that, no, there is no other volcano other then Mount Doom directly shown in the films.

Yay, I ween!

:victorytruffleshuffle:

Well this hasn't gotten out of hand at all...

Well its over now. I see no point in replying.

http://images.wikia.com/mspaintadventures/images/7/7f/Ps312.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
How is this a false dilemma? Either there a other volcano's or not. Perhaps next time you should look up what a false dilemma actual is before posting.

Perhaps you should learn how to simply understand.

Seriously.


Here's the false dilema:


"Only Mount Doom existed so only Mount Doom had enough heat to destroy the one ring."

False dilema because other volcanoes exist but are not present in the films. Else they have to go to just one Volcano and not others which would be far easier to do?


"But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options"

Obviously, you accidentally eliminated information because you were not aware that other magical volcanoes DO exist in that fictional universe.

Your response: "Movies only, please."

Present your proof that shows us only one volcano exists. And don't pretend it's like proving a negative: a ginarmous fiery and smoke spewing mountain is hardly "invisible" especially when you consider that the Eagles could have easily aided the Elves and Gandalf in going to a different volcano.


But, I'm wrong: MVF Golden rule. RAAAAWR!







Originally posted by Nephthys
You'll need to cite when I've done this in my pasts posts at to you.



I was referring to the same thread we are in. Go back and read it. It's only 4 pages long. Enjoy.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not trying to pass anything of as anything other than what was intended at the time I wrote it, my intention being, if you are in need of clarification, to say that 'sauron didn't forge it there because it was a magical volcano, but because it was a volcano period the only volcano.'

That was the original intent. If my words have caused your feeble plebeian brain some degree of confusion then I offer my sincerest apologies. That what not my intent.

And somehow you did not surmise that I already knew your position when I've been arguing against that position for ages, now?

Now what did you say about plebeian minds, again?



Originally posted by Nephthys
No they are not, they are opinion.

How could either know that the Ring could stand up to a lightsaber when they've never seen one? How could they possibly know that it could not be destroyed by anything except Mount Doom when the only things they've tried has been a small Hobbits fire and a ****ing axe?


How could you know that the One Ring could be destroyed by a lightsaber when it was said (and confirmed on screen) by an immortal angel that only the fires of Mount Doom could undo Sauron's power?




Originally posted by Nephthys
And yu have yet to prove a single facet of the above. Proof heat is not sufficient? Proof Mount Doom is magical? Proof Mount Doom is tied to Sauron. All you've offered so far is things the the novels and a freaking wiki page. Up your game DDM, I know you can do better than this. sneer


Uhhh...to all that stuff... I'll cover them as each were presented.

1. Fire did nothing. "No limits fallacy! RAWR!" The response is, "limits fallacy! RAWR!" It is a moot point. Credible characters said exactly how it could be destroyed. It was confirmed on screen. Facts.

2. It was already stated why Mount Doom was magical with ONLY context from the movies. Too bad: I'm not going to requote posts for you.

3. It was already done...same as above.

4. So you want me to lower my game, right? LOWER...not up it. I will not lower to your level. I've presented facts for you. You hide behind fallacies whle claim fallacies. You hide behind specific forum rules just to be right rather than admitting fault.



What happens to your arugments if I create this in the LotR forum...or the Star Wars EU forum?

hmm?


What will you hide behind, then?

Who said I would?

Hey girls.

AND THEN WE PORKED!

Originally posted by dadudemon
But there's an entire planet in that universe and we only saw a portion of a continent in the movies.

What other continent other then Middle Earth is in Arda? Other then Numenor and the Undying Land, nothing is mentioned in even the novels as there being something else other then Middle Earth.

And besides that, in the novels, there are only a handful of other volcanoes present, all of which were in Bereliand, which was destroyed. The movies apparently have even less geography.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
What other continent other then Middle Earth is in Arda? Other then Numenor and the Undying Land, nothing is mentioned in even the novels as there being something else other then Middle Earth.

And besides that, in the novels, there are only a handful of other volcanoes present, all of which were in Bereliand, which was destroyed. The movies apparently have even less geography.


Actually, I was going to mention Beleriand as one of those places that is not under water...(in a different age)

When Arda was made round and Aman taken from Arda, new lands were made east and west of middle earth.


There's also the "Land of the Sun", "Dark Land", Rhun (may be part of Middle-Earth...we really don't know for sure), and "Harod".



Edit - AWESOME!

Found a map of the first age Arda for the first friggin time ever...


http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/arda.html



"After the Downfall, the shape of Arda was changed, and it was made 'bent' (or 'round' as we should say in modern terms). Aman was taken out of the world, and could only be reached by the Elves, following the straight road that was granted to them. As Aman was taken away from Arda, new lands and continents were created. From the late Second Age onwards, the World began to take the shape that we know today."



Double edit - Here's another map I found...

http://demo.ort.org.il/clickit2/files/forums/615241783/341970872.jpg

Bereliand is definitely underwater.

Rhun and Harod are to my understanding also part of Middle Earth, albeit extremely south/south east.

And lol, the Dark Land was mentioned once in one early map and never mentioned again.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Bereliand is definitely underwater.

Rhun and Harod are to my understanding also part of Middle Earth, albeit extremely south/south east.

And lol, the Dark Land was mentioned once in one early map and never mentioned again.

I edited no less than three times. Go back and read my post if you want to see those edits.


But, basically, we don't know much beyond middle earth. The land of the south may be part of Middle Earth....I just could not find something "canon" to back that up.


Edit - found a thread that talks about this in better detail than I could hope to do.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=327

And that is why you fail.


:smug:

Originally posted by Nephthys
And that is why you fail.


:smug:

Define "that" and I may agree.

'I just could not find something "canon" to back that up.'


We should hate-****.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'I just could not find something "canon" to back that up.'


We should hate-****.


Only if you HJ and BJ RJ at the same time we HF. 313

No. My hatred of him is too STRONG to be sexy.

You can grip it extra hard and bite, then: he might like it.


Man...I am making myself sick.

Lightsabers>Mount Doom based on feats.

Ohohohohohohoho.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ohohohohohohoho.

Thanta?

Is dat ewe?

Hoho yes it is Billy! I have a present for you here, a rectangular box. I, ur, can't remove it from my lap, come over here and get it! Close your eyes before you open it, and feel around inside the box, try and guess what you're feeling Billy! Ohohohohohohoho.

You're trying too hard.






I reported that post too. You'll be banned for sure.

Bye Bye Nembro.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dismissed.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Based on that, the fact that a fire doesn't even make the ring hot, compound that with the last fact that it was forged in a magical volcano, and it is the most powerful artifact in the second and third age; no, a lightsaber definitely will not cut the ring. Only the place from which it was forged can dissolve the ring...due to magic. End of story.

Clearly run its course. Closed.