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If a person does not want to sleep with a person of the same sex, or have any type of relationship outside of a platonic one with them. Is it right for that person that has had a sex change or is hiding who they are not to tell the person right away?

If not and the heterosexual person unsuspectingly sleeps with someone that has hidden who they are, or has been medically altered sexually, would that not be rape?


Comments.

Originally posted by Stoic
If not and the heterosexual person unsuspectingly sleeps with someone that has hidden who they are, or has been medically altered sexually, would that not be rape?

It would be an absurd stretch, like the woman who accused a man of rape because he didn't tell her he was Jewish.

Unwanted sex = rape.


Sex that you would not have wanted/had had you known something? That's unwanted sex.

Is the set of all "unwanted sex", rape?

Lol at it being rape.

A choice made in ignorance of the complete facts is still a free choice.

We don't call cases where a woman believed the man was wearing a condom but was really having unprotected sex "rape" (at least I don't and I don't know anyone who would), just a case of one party misleading the other. Though I think in the case of a stealth transsexual its a lot less malicious than a phantom condom.

I think as a rule people should be honest about who they are and what condition(s) they have that might complicate things in the aftermath. If a transsexual is afraid that their partner might have a meltdown upon discovery then they really shouldn't be with those kinds of people in the first place. Stick with people who are comfortable with it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Unwanted sex = rape.


Sex that you would not have wanted/had had you known something? That's unwanted sex.

Is the set of all "unwanted sex", rape?

Sex not consented to at the time = rape

"Unwanted sex is not rape. Especially not retroactively unwanted sex.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Unwanted sex = rape.


Sex that you would not have wanted/had had you known something? That's unwanted sex.

Is the set of all "unwanted sex", rape?

So if a girl gets pregnant and regrets it then she didn't want to have that particular sex, therefore it was rape?

Originally posted by Stoic
If a person does not want to sleep with a person of the same sex, or have any type of relationship outside of a platonic one with them. Is it right for that person that has had a sex change or is hiding who they are not to tell the person right away?Is it right not to tell right away...I don't know if "right" is the word I'd use. Maybe "prudent." But it depends on the tellee.

If not and the heterosexual person unsuspectingly sleeps with someone that has hidden who they are, or has been medically altered sexually, would that not be rape? I'd say no, at least not legally. Maybe ethically. And maybe there could be some other charge that could be brought against the non-teller.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So if a girl gets pregnant and regrets it then she didn't want to have that particular sex, therefore it was rape?


That's taking it to a different place though isn't it? The pregnant woman mentioned knew what was happening the entire time, whereas if there was someone dressed in drag, sexually altered or any other unknown variable not mentioned, but mentioned after the fact is deceptive. No?

I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.

I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?

I wouldn't call it rape. I would consider it wrong, though. I know I would be pretty upset if it happened to me. I think most people would. You shouldn't hide things like that from people who you are looking to start a romantic relationship with.

Thats why I would never go with anyone I did not know very well. As in, for years well....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats why I would never go with anyone I did not know very well. As in, for years well....

This is a wise plan.

so, because some people are uncomfortable about human sexuality it is the responsibility of any transgendered person to have to reveal intensely personal information to every potential sexual partner, though it risks abuse, both personal and physical, and ostracism, or else they have committed rape? like a criminal violation of another person's body?

even if you might argue it is the polite thing to do (which is still absurd), this is the most backward approach to the issue that I think there could be. why not propose a "transgender" registry, to go alongside the sex offender one, so that these poor, unsuspecting people who are having consensual sex with strangers can be protected from what they are attracted to...

Originally posted by Stoic
That's taking it to a different place though isn't it?

Possibly, too charged of a an example as well. I'll pick a different one.

But lets pick a more concrete alternate example. I tell a woman I'm an fireman and she has sex with me because of that (I'm not really an fireman). Is that rape? How about if I promise to marry her? If I'm secretly a Nazi and she doesn't want to have sex with Nazis?

People lie or selectively reveal things about themselves in order to have sex all the time.

Originally posted by Stoic
I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.

I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?

No she wasn't raped because there's nothing about it that seems like rape to me. I'd define rape as sex without consent (exuding consent obtained under duress).

You can say it was wrong for being deceptive (though seriously who tells everyone they meet intensely personal details about their life?) but that brings you into all sorts of other areas. AFAIK trans people consider themselves to be of one sex or another and want to move past it once they've gotten surgery. Its arguably not deceptive to call themselves male or female.

Originally posted by Stoic
That's taking it to a different place though isn't it? The pregnant woman mentioned knew what was happening the entire time, whereas if there was someone dressed in drag, sexually altered or any other unknown variable not mentioned, but mentioned after the fact is deceptive. No?

I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.

I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?

Where does that end though? Dyed hair? Contact Lenses? Favorite Band?


I agree with the "you shouldn't do it" though, but it's not rape.

fun fact: If you rush to have sex with people before you have formed a trusting bond with them and get to know them, you face the consequences of having sex with someone you know nothing about.

/shock

I would deftinatly have a charge brought to bare on someone who dared cover their eye colour or poor eyesight with contacts...

Originally posted by Burning thought
I would deftinatly have a charge brought to bare on someone who dared cover their eye colour or poor eyesight with contacts...

Or fatties that got thin. I don't want to touch those things just because they look attractive now.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
AFAIK trans people consider themselves to be of one sex or another and want to move past it once they've gotten surgery. Its arguably not deceptive to call themselves male or female.

afaik, it is the difference between gender and sex

sex refers literally to your genetic composition (though there is considerable evidence that this isn't a binary M/F thing we once thought it was) and is essentially immutable to change. A person with an XY chromosome cannot change to an XX.

gender is a construct that individuals and cultures create, whereby many people feel that the gender they associate with personally does not match the physical body they have.

A person's experience of gender is far more important in their own identity, therefore people going through sex change surgery, regardless of their sex, would be the gender they appear as after surgery. Its a little more complex once you start getting into the more modern gender classifications, where there are 7 or 8 different categories, but really I'm just agreeing with you. A person who is a female-to-male transgendered individual is a male for all intents and purposes, especially in how they see themselves. It would be untrue for them to say they were female, in terms of gender (the most important consideration), though it might not reflect sex.

I hardly think that, even for people who don't undergo the surgery and merely crossdress or whatever, people are being dishonest when they describe their gender as what they actually feel it is.

It would be like getting angry with me because I introduce myself as a single human being rather than the processes that underlie my behaviour at a neurological level.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Possibly, too charged of a an example as well. I'll pick a different one.

But lets pick a more concrete alternate example. I tell a woman I'm an fireman and she has sex with me because of that (I'm not really an fireman). Is that rape? How about if I promise to marry her? If I'm secretly a Nazi and she doesn't want to have sex with Nazis?

People lie or selectively reveal things about themselves in order to have sex all the time.



No she wasn't raped because there's nothing about it that seems like rape to me. I'd define rape as sex without consent (exuding consent obtained under duress).

You can say it was wrong for being deceptive (though seriously who tells everyone they meet intensely personal details about their life?) but that brings you into all sorts of other areas. AFAIK trans people consider themselves to be of one sex or another and want to move past it once they've gotten surgery. Its arguably not deceptive to call themselves male or female. Originally posted by Bardock42
Where does that end though? Dyed hair? Contact Lenses? Favorite Band?


I agree with the "you shouldn't do it" though, but it's not rape.


Imagine if you may, someone having HIV, knowing that they have it, and sleeping with someone before telling them that they had the disease. This may seem to be an extreme example that I am pulling up, but what of people that have certain religious beliefs on the subject of sleeping or being in a same sex relationship? What of their choices? Should they be or go unheard because someone decides that they won't tell for whatever fear they have? Deception is deception, no matter how you wrap it up. Right or wrong?

Originally posted by Stoic
Imagine if you may, someone having HIV, knowing that they have it, and sleeping with someone before telling them that they had the disease. This may seem to be an extreme example that I am pulling up, but what of people that have certain religious beliefs on the subject of sleeping or being in a same sex relationship? What of their choices? Should they be or go unheard because someone decides that they won't tell for whatever fear they have? Deception is deception, no matter how you wrap it up. Right or wrong?

HIV causes physical, demonstrable harm...

also, its not lying to tell people you are who you feel you are...

Originally posted by Stoic
Imagine if you may, someone having HIV, knowing that they have it, and sleeping with someone before telling them that they had the disease. This may seem to be an extreme example that I am pulling up, but what of people that have certain religious beliefs on the subject of sleeping or being in a same sex relationship? What of their choices? Should they be or go unheard because someone decides that they won't tell for whatever fear they have? Deception is deception, no matter how you wrap it up. Right or wrong?

That would still not be rape. But intentionally inflicting someone with HIV is illegal, and they would get prosecuted for that.

Sleeping with a transvestite on the other hand has no actual harm, beyond what you attribute to it yourself. So it is much more similar to finding out someone didn't like a movie you love, or that someone was an atheist and didn't tell you, than having unprotected sex when you have HIV.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That would still not be rape. But intentionally inflicting someone with HIV is illegal, and they would get prosecuted for that.

Sleeping with a transvestite on the other hand has no actual harm, beyond what you attribute to it yourself. So it is much more similar to finding out someone didn't like a movie you love, or that someone was an atheist and didn't tell you, than having unprotected sex when you have HIV.


But if you never intended on sleeping with a transgendered person, and did not know until after the fact, is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV, and does not tell you. It's still a deception, and no matter how you dress a lie up, it's still a lie. Just because one has mortal implications as opposed to the other does not lesson it. I think that it should also be considered a crime. Open minded or not, everyone needs to be able to decide whether or not they want to sleep with so and so, even if it's at the expense of being politically correct.

Nah Mean?

Originally posted by Stoic
But if you never intended on sleeping with a transgendered person, and did not know until after the fact, is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV, and does not tell you. It's still a deception, and no matter how you dress a lie up, it's still a lie. Just because one has mortal implications as opposed to the other does not lesson it. I think that it should also be considered a crime. Open minded or not, everyone needs to be able to decide whether or not they want to sleep with so and so, even if it's at the expense of being politically correct.

Nah Mean?

It's not the same though. HIV kills you, actually. Sleeping with a transgendered person does nothing to you. You have not been harmed. So it is in no way similar to sleeping with someone that transmits HIV to you without your knowledge.


If you have to disclose that you are transgender, why do you not have to disclose everything else about you? What if you never wanted to sleep with a blonde, but the girl you slept with is a blonde but didn't tell you and had brunette dyed hair? By your logic, that too, would have to be a crime. Do you want that to be a crime?

Originally posted by Stoic
politically correct.

/red flag

Actually I simply wouldn't date the girl if I had a dislike of blonds vs brunettes, and that's my choice. The key here, is simple, it's "my" choice.

A heterosexual person, that never had any intention of being with a homosexual person has the right to be told before having a relationship with that person because that is their choice, and to withhold this information is, or could be construed to be as bad as a woman taking a walk in the park, and is sexually assaulted by a mugger.

This could scar that person for life. Who are you or I to say? People no matter what their gender preference is has the right to know things of this nature. I asked a question earlier, and received no answer. What if the person that was not told this information went against their beliefs? Should they not be respected as well? Should their beliefs, or wants be ignored? Deception like I said is deception, whether it be from being deceived into unknowingly sleeping with a person with HIV, or a person that is transgendered.

If a White, Latino, Asian, Indian or whatever ethnicity has a problem sleeping with a Black person, and the Black person knows this, but does not look remotely Black it is still that persons right to know, so that they can make the decision if they want, or not want to pursue being with that Black person.

you convinced me

transgendered people might as well have aids and we should treat them like sex offenders

take that PC strawman!

Originally posted by Stoic
Actually I simply wouldn't date the girl if I had a dislike of blonds vs brunettes, and that's my choice. The key here, is simple, it's "my" choice.

It's not your choice if she hides it from you.

Originally posted by Stoic
A heterosexual person, that never had any intention of being with a homosexual person has the right to be told before having a relationship with that person because that is their choice, and to withhold this information is, or could be construed to be as bad as a woman taking a walk in the park, and is sexually assaulted by a mugger.

No, not if we apply "logic" and "reason".

Originally posted by Stoic
This could scar that person for life. Who are you or I to say? People no matter what their gender preference is has the right to know things of this nature. I asked a question earlier, and received no answer. What if the person that was not told this information went against their beliefs? Should they not be respected as well? Should their beliefs, or wants be ignored? Deception like I said is deception, whether it be from being deceived into unknowingly sleeping with a person with HIV, or a person that is transgendered.

It's a pity for them, and I agree people should deceive others that way. Should they be punished by law? No, most definitely not.

Originally posted by Stoic
If a White, Latino, Asian, Indian or whatever ethnicity has a problem sleeping with a Black person, and the Black person knows this, but does not look remotely Black it is still that persons right to know, so that they can make the decision if they want, or not want to pursue being with that Black person.

So you would throw that "black" person in jail cause they pretended to be "latino"? You don't find that ridiculous?

Originally posted by Stoic
It's still a deception, and no matter how you dress a lie up, it's still a lie.

I did ask you to be more clear about things. In your opening post, you didn't ask "Is the person lying?", you asked "is it rape?"

Which by any rational or legal definition it is not, and you saying it can be construed as equivalent to being sexually assaulted by a mugger is ludicrous.

I'll assume you meant the discussion to be more broad than that, because if it is not I'll close it now as it has a simple answer. However, I find little basis for good argument here. If your discussion is "Is it wrong to withhold facts about yourself from someone you sleep with?" then maybe you have a discussion, though I doubt it will go very far as legally requiring full disclosure is ridiculous.

Your weird focus on transexualism as being the unrevealed factor is worrying, though, and if I feel this is just an excuse to attack transexuals I will close.

Originally posted by Stoic
Actually I simply wouldn't date the girl if I had a dislike of blonds vs brunettes, and that's my choice. The key here, is simple, it's "my" choice.

So you're literally arguing that if a woman dies her hair she's a rapist?

Originally posted by inimalist
you convinced me

transgendered people might as well have aids and we should treat them like sex offenders

take that PC strawman!

And then you became the person that tried to make what I said or wrote into something that it was not. That of course is your choice. You don't see it as a crime, while someone else may. You even seem to be attempting to stand on some moral high ground, while arguing the immoral.

Do you or don't you think that it is wrong, or right to withhold information of this nature? Either it's yes or it's no.

Originally posted by Stoic
And then you became the person that tried to make what I said or wrote into something that it was not.

The problem is that you never manage to say what you mean. Is English your first language?

Also you literally said:
"is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV"

Originally posted by Stoic
I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.

I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?


How the **** did she not notice it was a woman? I mean, you can only be so drunk. But noones that drunk.

Yes, I think you should tell someone this, in the benefit of honesty. But it is not a punishable crime by any means, in my opinion. And if you think you would get "scarred for life", toughen up. That's pathetic.

So...everyone (beside Stoic) is really on the side of "You should tell, but if you don't you shouldn't get punished", yeah?

What a lovely uncontroversial topic...

Originally posted by Stoic
Do you or don't you think that it is wrong, or right to withhold information of this nature? Either it's yes or it's no.

of the half dozen posts I have made in this thread, your attention fixated on one with the least amount of substance. While I might question the relevance of asking me something I have laid out pretty clearly in other posts, the simple answer is no, I don't think it is wrong to withhold this information, and in fact, I don't think a male-to-female transgendered individual is actually lying when they say they are female.

I find your position, which seems to tell people who they are rather than letting them express it for themselves, naive and fairly dismissive of the actual diversity we see in human sexual and gender psychology. Further, it seems to be based wholly around defending people who make rash decisions and have to live with the consequences, rather than using any logic or evidence to put forth an actual position. For instance, why stop simply at sex? why not have people be required to provide a note from their doctor detailing all of their recent sexual activity? what about political affiliations? If these things are important to you, wouldn't it be more fair to say that it is your responsibility to find them out before you have sex with someone rather than expecting them to come forward with incredibly personal information? Further, since it is you that has the problem, how are they to know what information they should tell you? should transgendered people just wear little signs when they go out to avoid any such mistakes?

Further, you seem to be fixating "deception" as the principle issue in the matter, including when you were trying to compare it to rape or HIV. In both the cases of rape or HIV infection, the lie or deception causes immediate bodily harm, hence why they are criminal, whereas sleeping with a transgendered individual causes, potentially, mental anguish due entirely to the poor choices made by the individual you are trying to call a victim.

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH A TRANSGENDERED INDIVIDUAL IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VET THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

Originally posted by inimalist
of the half dozen posts I have made in this thread, your attention fixated on one with the least amount of substance. While I might question the relevance of asking me something I have laid out pretty clearly in other posts, the simple answer is no, I don't think it is wrong to withhold this information, and in fact, I don't think a male-to-female transgendered individual is actually lying when they say they are female.

I find your position, which seems to tell people who they are rather than letting them express it for themselves, naive and fairly dismissive of the actual diversity we see in human sexual and gender psychology. Further, it seems to be based wholly around defending people who make rash decisions and have to live with the consequences, rather than using any logic or evidence to put forth an actual position. For instance, why stop simply at sex? why not have people be required to provide a note from their doctor detailing all of their recent sexual activity? what about political affiliations? If these things are important to you, wouldn't it be more fair to say that it is your responsibility to find them out before you have sex with someone rather than expecting them to come forward with incredibly personal information? Further, since it is you that has the problem, how are they to know what information they should tell you? should transgendered people just wear little signs when they go out to avoid any such mistakes?

Further, you seem to be fixating "deception" as the principle issue in the matter, including when you were trying to compare it to rape or HIV. In both the cases of rape or HIV infection, the lie or deception causes immediate bodily harm, hence why they are criminal, whereas sleeping with a transgendered individual causes, potentially, mental anguish due entirely to the poor choices made by the individual you are trying to call a victim.

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH A TRANSGENDERED INDIVIDUAL IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VET THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

YOU WROTE

IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO (WHAT WORD IS THAT?) THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

If you believe everything that you wrote, that is up to you, I don't, and it's wrong to withhold information of this nature. You can type in all caps, to make yourself seem right or righteous if you like, but it still does not make it right. Homosexuality isn't in the closet phase any longer, which is not in question. If a person has gotten close enough to another person to become intimate, being honest shouldn't be as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, or trying.


Originally posted by Bardock42
So...everyone (beside Stoic) is really on the side of "You should tell, but if you don't you shouldn't get punished", yeah?

What a lovely uncontroversial topic...

Going to jail may be a bit harsh, but depending on the person deceived, things could get ugly. You know this as well as I do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The problem is that you never manage to say what you mean. Is English your first language?

Also you literally said:
"is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV"


Don't pick my words, read the post, and if you have a problem reading and understanding the English language, I will be willing to help you understand. Then again I believe that you could use an online dictionary, it's free. Just don't put words in my mouth that I never wrote to make yourself appear to be standing on some high moral plateau. Did you understand that, or should I explain it in a way that you can?

Brodock nailed it, imo. This wouldn't be rape.

Originally posted by Stoic
Don't pick my words, read the post, and if you have a problem reading and understanding the English language, I will be willing to help you understand. Then again I believe that you could use an online dictionary, it's free. Just don't put words in my mouth that I never wrote to make yourself appear to be standing on some high moral plateau. Did you understand that, or should I explain it in a way that you can?

So when you said that having sex with a transgendered person was the same as having sex with someone who has HIV you didn't mean that having sex with a transgendered person was the same as having sex with someone who has HIV?

That's not confusing at all.

Originally posted by Stoic
YOU WROTE

IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO (WHAT WORD IS THAT?) THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

If you believe everything that you wrote, that is up to you, I don't, and it's wrong to withhold information of this nature. You can type in all caps, to make yourself seem right or righteous if you like, but it still does not make it right. Homosexuality isn't in the closet phase any longer, which is not in question. If a person has gotten close enough to another person to become intimate, being honest shouldn't be as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, or trying.

being transgendered is much different than being homosexual...

otherwise, sure, I'm terrible...

EDIT: just to clarify, you know a male-to-female transgendered person who has sex with men is not a homosexual, yes?

Originally posted by Stoic
YOU WROTE

IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO (WHAT WORD IS THAT?) THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

If you believe everything that you wrote, that is up to you, I don't, and it's wrong to withhold information of this nature. You can type in all caps, to make yourself seem right or righteous if you like, but it still does not make it right. Homosexuality isn't in the closet phase any longer, which is not in question. If a person has gotten close enough to another person to become intimate, being honest shouldn't be as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, or trying.
Its not an issue of honesty. You want to charge these people with a FELONY rape charge, this is way beyond "well, it would be a nice thing to do".

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sex not consented to at the time = rape

"Unwanted sex is not rape. Especially not retroactively unwanted sex.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So if a girl gets pregnant and regrets it then she didn't want to have that particular sex, therefore it was rape?

Calm down.

I was clearly illustrating the path that such reasoning leads to.


If you start your reasoning out as such and then use a faulty "connector", then you end up stating things like "the set of all unwanted sex = rape" which is CLEARLY not true. This is why it is posed as a question, not a statement.


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Possibly, too charged of a an example as well. I'll pick a different one.

But lets pick a more concrete alternate example. I tell a woman I'm an fireman and she has sex with me because of that (I'm not really an fireman). Is that rape? How about if I promise to marry her? If I'm secretly a Nazi and she doesn't want to have sex with Nazis?

People lie or selectively reveal things about themselves in order to have sex all the time.

Yes, this was more along my point and why I ended in a question: I thought of "guy lies about being of such and such profession and gets laid because of it" ALSO being in the set of "unwanted sex."

Originally posted by inimalist
A person who is a female-to-male transgendered individual is a male for all intents and purposes, especially in how they see themselves.


Well...for most intents and purposes. There are multiple ways that they are not "male", still. I prefer the term "transexual" and that still only gets rid of one or two of the ways (their privates and chest) they are still not male (you sort of touched on this, earlier). hormone therapy+ surgery combo for best results? Still not enough: there are still multiple ways they are still male. It's hard to get rid of what your DNA gave you in a very complete manner. For that, I hope future medicine can provide a more perfect relief.

Originally posted by Stoic
Don't pick my words, read the post, and if you have a problem reading and understanding the English language, I will be willing to help you understand. Then again I believe that you could use an online dictionary, it's free. Just don't put words in my mouth that I never wrote to make yourself appear to be standing on some high moral plateau. Did you understand that, or should I explain it in a way that you can?

That's pretty rich seeing as you have indeed only posted in extremely unclear ways and in that very post seemed to query inimalist's perfectly reasonable use of the word 'vet'.

As you don't seem to want to open up the debate at all, I am concluding that this is indeed pretty much just you bashing on homosexuality.

Thread closed, and please be more reasonable when opening threads in future.