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Albus has the elder wand. This is to the death. One on one for most superior HP wizard.

Dumbledore. Because f*ck that nasal-voiced, speech-Impedimenta freak, that's why.

Dumbledore.

Originally posted by ares834
Dumbledore. Why ?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Because f*ck that nasal-voiced, speech-Impedimenta freak, that's why.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You don't want none of me son.

Dumbledore did just fine against Voldemort...while protecting Harry Potter. I think the winner is easy to see...and there's a reason Voldy feared Dumbles.

I didn't even have to post my reasoning, quanchi dear.

Dumbledore.

Impedimenta?

awermm

Dumbledore for the win.

Dumbledore had the Elder wand when he faced Voldemort in OotP, so why bring it up?

And Dumbledore kills Slytherins last ***** heir.

Originally posted by Impediment
Impedimenta?

awermm You should add an 'a' to the end of your name. It would be as ironic as pooping in the fish tank.

Originally posted by Thoren
Dumbledore had the Elder wand when he faced Voldemort in OotP, so why bring it up?

And Dumbledore kills Slytherins last ***** heir. Just to make it clear despite having the most powerful wand in existence he still was losing against Voldemort.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just to make it clear despite having the most powerful wand in existence he still was losing against Voldemort.

Claim your filmy-film proof. No where did I see this in any Harry Potter movie. The only time Voldemort gets close to being one on one with Dumbledore is in #5, and Dumbles only needs to pull out some of his stops to finish it.

I seem to remember there being a very large plot point in HBP wherein Voldemort orders SOMEONE ELSE to kill Dumbledore; he's to afraid to get in that situation himself!!

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Claim your filmy-film proof. No where did I see this in any Harry Potter movie. The only time Voldemort gets close to being one on one with Dumbledore is in #5, and Dumbles only needs to pull out some of his stops to finish it.

I seem to remember there being a very large plot point in HBP wherein Voldemort orders SOMEONE ELSE to kill Dumbledore; he's to afraid to get in that situation himself!! The only time these guys go at it is number 5. Voldemort isn't backing down he goes right for him. Voldemort only leaves due to the orders showing up and it being like 8-1. He was rocking him. Dumbledore looked scared of him as well.

Why would Voldemort run around doing his dirty work when he can have his slaves do it for him. Dumbledore gave up his life. He knew he couldn't best Voldemort in battle.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The only time these guys go at it is number 5. Voldemort isn't backing down he goes right for him. Voldemort only leaves due to the orders showing up and it being like 8-1.
Uhhh.... no. The Order is down for the count - the Death Eaters took care of them. You stated this before

The only reason this duel is not a duel is because Harry is involved. Voldemort had to make a "last resort" move - possessing Harry. He couldn't even do that for five minutes straight.


Why would Voldemort run around doing his dirty work when he can have his slaves do it for him. Dumbledore gave up his life. He knew he couldn't best Voldemort in battle.
Negative. In film 6, Voldemort comes to be a teacher at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore sees through his veener. He says that he's surprised that Voldemort has showed up by himself, and comments, saying, "Aren't your friends, Dolohov and " down in the Hog's Head, waiting your return?"

Voldemort only does the dirty work that is important on to the ultimate fight in the Ministry of Magic to kill Dumbledore. This is a time period of over fifty years.
And he hadn't yet.

So, AGAIN, he makes someone else do it. Because he CAN'T. Because he's SCARED.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Uhhh.... no. The Order is down for the count - the Death Eaters took care of them. You stated this before

The only reason this duel is not a duel is because Harry is involved. Voldemort had to make a "last resort" move - possessing Harry. He couldn't even do that for five minutes straight.


Why would Voldemort run around doing his dirty work when he can have his slaves do it for him. Dumbledore gave up his life. He knew he couldn't best Voldemort in battle.
Negative. In film 6, Voldemort comes to be a teacher at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore sees through his veener. He says that he's surprised that Voldemort has showed up by himself, and comments, saying, "Aren't your friends, Dolohov and " down in the Hog's Head, waiting your return?"

Voldemort only does the dirty work that is important on to the ultimate fight in the Ministry of Magic to kill Dumbledore. This is a time period of over fifty years.
And he hadn't yet.

So, AGAIN, he makes someone else do it. Because he CAN'T. Because he's SCARED. In order of the phoenix in the movie he leaves because the orders show up. That's a fact this has nothing to do with this thread I am merely stating a fact.

That wasn't a last ditch effort he changed tactics the entire fight which is what great fighters do when something isn't working. He also put Dumbledore on his ass with a weaker wand whereas Dumbledore didn't phase him in the slightest.

Both Dumbledore and Voldemort were protected so they had to pick their moments. Voldemort was the wizard everyone feared including Dumbledore. People wouldn't even speak his name and at the end of the order of the phoenix the situation presented itself for Voldemort and he tried to kill Dumbledore before more backup showed up. Did you see his face too when he saw Voldemort...the life drained from his face. That's called forcing your will upon an entire wizarding world.

They were still his slaves just rebellious slaves. They were weak and couldn't confront him but only did so through treachery.

The entire world was scared of Voldemort while Dumbledore was so scared he forced his friend to kill him so he didn't have to fact Voldemort again. What a weenie.

Voldemort ftw.

okay, number one? we speak footage, not "just cuz i said so." you clearly hold the burden of proof here, as no one else agrees with you.

Imma gonna answer your little post in the morning, I'm watching GLEE and even you aren't going to spoil that.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
okay, number one? we speak footage, not "just cuz i said so." you clearly hold the burden of proof here, as no one else agrees with you.

Imma gonna answer your little post in the morning, I'm watching GLEE and even you aren't going to spoil that. Voldemort was winning the battle in the films as Dumbledore was on his ass. Voldemort was in control and while Dumbledore didn't die he was still on his butthole when Voldemort decided to possess Harry. I love Albus' scared look on his face. The guy was so happy the orders showed up he was just sitting there while Voldemort was talking down to Harry.

I agree that Dumbledore has an, "Oh shit!" moment, but he does recover.


Possessing Harry is a last resort move because Voldemort's trying to catch Dumble's bluff - "I thought you said that Harry would beat me! Well, I suppose if you decide to kill him, you could kill me... and that's what you want most, isn't it?"

And even though he wouldn't really be dead, it counts as a KO because he'll have to wander around in spirit form forever - the trick with the snake and the bone and the blood in Goblet of Fire was a one-time thing.

I think we've seen different movies. Again, the burden of proof is on you. Go get some footage and I might begin to see you as a credible resource. "Because I said so," is rotten debate tactic. I did debate in high school - I know this stuff.

Sirius, don't bother. You're getting sucked into the classic Quanchi trap.

Films and books both make it clear that Voldemort is unable to defeat Dumbledore.

If Voldemort didn't have have Horcruxes, and fought Dumbledore to the death, he would lose.

Oh, I know it's a trap. I just want to see how long I can go on with different reasonable arguments to these "um, well, because i like the other character better..." thingys. When I'm out of Dumble's feats, I'm done. It's always fun to see yourself being uber-superior to the "I know you are, but what am I?"

I'll stop soon, I promise.

Actually I haven't read the books, and I think Voldemort would win.

To each their own, but, Placidity, why would Voldemort waste so many chances to kill Dumbledore, and then send someone else after him, if he had the ability?

I dunno, plot?

I'm not saying he would win easily, but I am leaning towards him.

People are saying Voldy knew he couldn't win, but I felt like Voldy thought he could beat Dumbledore. In Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore tells him the Order is on the way, Voldy could have just left, but instead he takes him on anyway, he obviously thought he might have been able to kill him within that amount of time.

The reason Voldemort doesn't just randomly kill Dumbles...


1. He spent most of his time (almost all) behind the most protected place in the wizarding world: Hogwarts.

2. He had the Elder Wand which is almost a guaranteed victory for Dumbledore.

3. Dumbledore is one of if not the best duelist in his day.

4. Dumbledore is probably second in magical knowledge only to Voldemort...which is like saying $45.1 billion is second to $45.11 billion.

5. Dumbledore is surrounding but quite capable wizards at Hogwarts...making it a nasty choice.



This all points to an obvious reason that he attacked Dumbledore while at the ministry: It offered the best possible chance at eliminating his biggest threat because Dumbeldore did not have Hogwarts to protect him and Dumbledore did not have "on-hand" back up from other powerful wizards. Voldemort thought it possible to defeat Dumbledore, swiftly, in that brief period of time before everyone showed up.


Voldemort certainly gave Dumbledore a hard time...and he ALMOST had victory at multiple points.

Albus was capable of defeating someone with the elder wand, same can't be said for Voldemort, from my point of view that alone could be enough to argue for a win in Albus favor.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Sirius, don't bother. You're getting sucked into the classic Quanchi trap.

Films and books both make it clear that Voldemort is unable to defeat Dumbledore.

If Voldemort didn't have have Horcruxes, and fought Dumbledore to the death, he would lose. The movies also make it clear Dumbledore with the elder wand was unable to best Voldemort. Voldemort had control longer and was the one trying to kill him while Dumbledore just looked to survive the fight.
I also think it's annoying to say oh it's his trap to actually debate the thread topic. This isn't an open and shut case for Dumbledore by any means and looking at the fight honestly you have to admit Voldemort held the upper hand.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
I agree that Dumbledore has an, "Oh shit!" moment, but he does recover.


Possessing Harry is a last resort move because Voldemort's trying to catch Dumble's bluff - "I thought you said that Harry would beat me! Well, I suppose if you decide to kill him, you could kill me... and that's what you want most, isn't it?"

And even though he wouldn't really be dead, it counts as a KO because he'll have to wander around in spirit form forever - the trick with the snake and the bone and the blood in Goblet of Fire was a one-time thing.

I think we've seen different movies. Again, the burden of proof is on you. Go get some footage and I might begin to see you as a credible resource. "Because I said so," is rotten debate tactic. I did debate in high school - I know this stuff. Possessing Harry is just another tactic against Dumbledore. He was frustrated most certainly but at no point desperate.

How is the burden of proof on me.....the fight made it clear despite the more powerful wand Voldemort was the one in control. The only point in their battle that Dumbledore had the upper hand was with the bubble of water to which his response was swift and his most effective. He knocked Dumbledore on his ass and at no point in this entire fight did Dumbledore look confident as opposed to Voldemort who was just irked he hadn't killed Dumbledore.

*yawns and stretches* All right, well I'm done in here folks. Hopefully all these threads will not be posted in for a bit and they can become part of kmc colorful history.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
*yawns and stretches* All right, well I'm done in here folks. Hopefully all these threads will not be posted in for a bit and they can become part of kmc colorful history. The film made it pretty obvious Voldemort was in control while Dumbledore just survived long enough for the backup to arrive.

from what I've seen in the movies, I say stalemate, the books are another matter though...

as for Hogwarts, the barriers and enchantments that protect the grounds can be cleverly bypassed...

the real reason people proclaim Hogwarts as the safest place is because Dumbledore himself lives there, he himself is the greatest protection, not the castle's internal enchantments...

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
from what I've seen in the movies, I say stalemate, the books are another matter though...

as for Hogwarts, the barriers and enchantments that protect the grounds can be cleverly bypassed...

the real reason people proclaim Hogwarts as the safest place is because Dumbledore himself lives there, he himself is the greatest protection, not the castle's internal enchantments... What makes you say stalemate based off of the movies ? Dumbledore was doing enough to stay alive he wasn't in control of the fight save the water bubble.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Albus was capable of defeating someone with the elder wand, same can't be said for Voldemort, from my point of view that alone could be enough to argue for a win in Albus favor.

Depends who that someone was, and how he was defeated.

We know among the earlier owners of the wand, one of them was killed in his sleep.

That reminds me, whats all the fanboy talk about the Wand only changing ownership if the previous owner was defeated in a magic battle? Getting killed when asleep destroys that belief.

iirc, neither had the other in a complete disadvantage, though Albus was trying to protect Harry at the same time, and he did have the elder wand, so maybe that was PIS on Dumbledore's part...

Originally posted by Placidity
Depends who that someone was, and how he was defeated.

We know among the earlier owners of the wand, one of them was killed in his sleep.

That reminds me, whats all the fanboy talk about the Wand only changing ownership if the previous owner was defeated in a magic battle? Getting killed when asleep destroys that belief.

Except in this particular incident we know that Dumbledore became famous in the entire wizard community for defeating the wielder of the Elder Wand, not that it was known to anyone but Dumbledore that Grindelwald was in possession of it, but it's still the facts.

I can't imagine the Wand being that dedistinguishing in it's approach, rather it accepts that it's master have been beaten (Harry quickly disarming Draco is a excellent example) also aveda kedavra works just as well if the guy is asleep.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
iirc, neither had the other in a complete disadvantage, though Albus was trying to protect Harry at the same time, and he did have the elder wand, so maybe that was PIS on Dumbledore's part... Voldemrt was clearly in control. Dumbledore was fighting for his life and on his knees at the end of their duel.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Except in this particular incident we know that Dumbledore became famous in the entire wizard community for defeating the wielder of the Elder Wand, not that it was known to anyone but Dumbledore that Grindelwald was in possession of it, but it's still the facts.


Do you know this from the films only or from the books? I haven't read the books and don't recall the films too well except for the latest one.

Originally posted by Placidity
Do you know this from the films only or from the books? I haven't read the books and don't recall the films too well except for the latest one.

Both, I believe it was mentioned in the movies (can't recall which one) that Dumbledore was more or less forced to fight his old friend Grindelwald, but yes the books mentions it aswell. I honestly can't imagine the movies leaving it out because Grindelwald is a rather importent part of what shaped Dumbledore into what he is.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Both, I believe it was mentioned in the movies (can't recall which one) that Dumbledore was more or less forced to fight his old friend Grindelwald, but yes the books mentions it aswell. I honestly can't imagine the movies leaving it out because Grindelwald is a rather importent part of what shaped Dumbledore into what he is. Do you believe Grindelwald was better, equal to, or less than Voldemort ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you believe Grindelwald was better, equal to, or less than Voldemort ?

Based on what?

the movies? Impossible to make a qualified guess.

the books? I would put at around Voldemorts level, perhaps a bit below but not by a huge margin.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Based on what?

the movies? Impossible to make a qualified guess.

the books? I would put at around Voldemorts level, perhaps a bit below but not by a huge margin. In the books which I didn't read since the movies really don't cover him enough to accurately say. I'd say based off the fight V vs. A had Voldemort looked far more impressive than Dumbledore. Voldemort had a short window to kill him and didn't do so and left after his backup arrived.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In the books which I didn't read since the movies really don't cover him enough to accurately say. I'd say based off the fight V vs. A had Voldemort looked far more impressive than Dumbledore. Voldemort had a short window to kill him and didn't do so and left after his backup arrived.

Well the books again from my perspecitve places Grindelwald around or a bit below Voldemorts level.

I disagree, but really there is no point in arguing personal perspectives concerning the on screen footage, atleast not imo.

Oh and btw read the books.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Well the books again from my perspecitve places Grindelwald around or a bit below Voldemorts level.

I disagree, but really there is no point in arguing personal perspectives concerning the on screen footage, atleast not imo.

Oh and btw read the books. Ok, fair enough but don't you think if you take away the elder wand then the advantage is clearly in Voldemort's favor since he was able to stalemate Dumbledore while in possession of it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok, fair enough but don't you think if you take away the elder wand then the advantage is clearly in Voldemort's favor since he was able to stalemate Dumbledore while in possession of it.

Unless you can somehow prove that it was only because of the Elder Wand Dumbledore in your opinion stalemated Voldemort, I see no reason to speculate on the subject.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok, fair enough but don't you think if you take away the elder wand then the advantage is clearly in Voldemort's favor since he was able to stalemate Dumbledore while in possession of it.

so you acknowledge then that it was a stalemate? good...

however, if you read the books, it has been said on more than one occasion that Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore, and that Albus died undefeated...

it is safe then to assume that in a one on one battle, with nothing to distract Dumbledore, who is out to kill, and who is also in possession of the elder wand, that Albus would open a can of whoop a$$ on little Tom Riddle so hard he'll start loving muggles...

Originally posted by Utrigita
Unless you can somehow prove that it was only because of the Elder Wand Dumbledore in your opinion stalemated Voldemort, I see no reason to speculate on the subject. There's nothing to speculate about Dumbledore had the most powerful wand in existence. That's a movie fact so him being able to stalemate him with the most powerful wand is an advantage and yet he still was on his ass at the end of Voldy's onslaught.Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
so you acknowledge then that it was a stalemate? good...

however, if you read the books, it has been said on more than one occasion that Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore, and that Albus died undefeated...

it is safe then to assume that in a one on one battle, with nothing to distract Dumbledore, who is out to kill, and who is also in possession of the elder wand, that Albus would open a can of whoop a$$ on little Tom Riddle so hard he'll start loving muggles... Voldemort was winning but didn't kill him so yes it ended in a stalemate.

The movies are different than the books and you can still fear an opponent and win. Fear is good sometimes but in the movie Voldemort didn't seem scared he seemed sure of himself he could kill him in the limited amount of time he had before the orders showed up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
There's nothing to speculate about Dumbledore had the most powerful wand in existence. That's a movie fact so him being able to stalemate him with the most powerful wand is an advantage and yet he still was on his ass at the end of Voldy's onslaught.

So a Wizard is only defined by the wand in his or her possession?

Originally posted by Utrigita
So a Wizard is only defined by the wand in his or her possession?

Obviously not, but I don't get what you're trying to say.

Lets say we both have a race on a racetrack:

- You get a top of the range sports car
- I get a family sedan
- We finish at the same time/tie

Who is the better driver?

Originally posted by Placidity
Obviously not, but I don't get what you're trying to say.

Lets say we both have a race on a racetrack:

- You get a top of the range sports car
- I get a family sedan
- We finish at the same time/tie

Who is the better driver?

I'm merely questioning if it's the Wand that defines the Wizard or the Wizard that defines the wand. Give the Elder wand to Harry and do a single one believes that the wand would magically help Harry win against Voldemort?

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
however, if you read the books, it has been said on more than one occasion that Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore, and that Albus died undefeated...

Big deal. Just because you are afraid of someone does not make you inferior.



It's not safe to say that at all. Sure, Dumebledore may win. But it will be a damn hard fight for him.

Originally posted by ares834
Big deal. Just because you are afraid of someone does not make you inferior.

That's the implied, actually. Well, it was not actually implied: it was later explained why he WAS inferior in the last book: the Elder Wand. Voldemort had a very good reason to fear it.



Originally posted by ares834
It's not safe to say that at all. Sure, Dumebledore may win. But it will be a damn hard fight for him.

Actually, I'd say that is pretty safe to say. Not even safe to say, but a fact.

Dumbledore would win if you remove distractions and CIS/PIS: he has the Elder Wand. I have no idea how Albus won the duel against Grindelwald. It makes no sense. Something isn't right. Someone needs to ask Rowling: "If two "aware" wizards start a duel, one with the Elderwand, then how in the world can the one with the Elderwand lose when its purpose for existing is to never lose a duel?" I understand Rowling's protrayal of it as being a "bloody" wand...sons killing fathers, killing people in their sleep, killing chilren, and so forth. That makes sense: you defeat the person when they are unaware or through trickery. But if they are aware, how in the world can you beat them in a straight up duel?

It should not happen. What does Albus know that we the reader do not?



Surely this was asked of Rowling?

Harry Potter knew that he was the master of the Wand because he had to decide to die by it. When he returned, he was still the master of the wand and when Voldemort tried torturing his body...it didn't hurt...and Harry Potter was like, "WTF? lol!". So we know the wand cannot harm its master if you are not the master of it.


Albus, imo, incorrectly states that it had been defeated hundreds of times. However, that's not true: it had only been defeated twice via duel. All other times, it was through shady means. Egbert and Albus know something the rest do not know about the Elderwand...

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's the implied, actually. Well, it was not actually implied: it was later explained why he WAS inferior in the last book: the Elder Wand. Voldemort had a very good reason to fear it.

I admitted he was inferior. But simply being afraid does not mean he is.



Nah. He will win but it's not going to be some amazing ass kicking considering their duel in the Ministry of Magic.



Simple. The Elder Wand is not undefeatable. That's just a legend like it being fashined by Death himself. In The Tales of Beedle the Bard, Dumbledore says something similar to this claiming that the wand is not undefeatable but rather capable of more powerful magic than typical wands.



Debatable. It could have been simply the protection he created for the defenders of Hogwarts by sacraficing himself. Afterall, the wand was capable of knocking him out.

Edit: Originally posted by dadudemon
Albus, imo, incorrectly states that it had been defeated hundreds of times. However, that's not true: it had only been defeated twice via duel. All other times, it was through shady means. Egbert and Albus know something the rest do not know about the Elderwand...

Maybe that is where he says it. Still he specifcally mentions that it is not undeatable and, considering he did beat Grindelwald, I'd be inclined to agree.

Originally posted by ares834
I admitted he was inferior. But simply being afraid does not mean he is.

And I explained his reasons for the fear which was due to his inferiority. To Sum: Your point, while quite a good one in general, is irrelevant to this particular example.



Originally posted by ares834
Nah. He will win but it's not going to be some amazing ass kicking considering their duel in the Ministry of Magic.


I disagree, obviously, because he really was distracted by Harry Potter and had no interest in killing Voldemort. iirc, Dumbledore vowed to never kill with the Elderwand or something. He's a hippy or something. (Explains the beard and hair )



Originally posted by ares834
Simple. The Elder Wand is not undefeatable. That's just a legend like it being fashined by Death himself. In The Tales of Beedle the Bard, Dumbledore says something similar to this claiming that the wand is not undefeatable but rather capable of more powerful magic than typical wands.

That's simple to you but I see a conflict in Rowlings works. I also disagree that it is beatable. I think Rowling intended something else with the wand. All other ways except for two duels, were completed by trickery. I also think that trickery played a role in Albus and Egbert's victories.



Originally posted by ares834
Debatable. It could have been simply the protection he created for the defenders of Hogwarts by sacraficing himself. Afterall, the wand was capable of knocking him out.

Actually, it is not debateable. What I said is fact.

If you give yourself up willingly to be killed, then the Elderwand will not change posession to the person that kills you. That was Albus' original intent with Snape. Draco ruined everything with his disarming spell. lol But seriously, yes...Harry Potter was doing quite the awesome task:

Protection through the "old school" protection magic via love.

Preventing Voldemort from mastering the Elderwand which they knew, at that point, that Harry was the master of. If Harry did not give himself up willingly to be killed, the wand would have failed to kill him and the entire plan would have unraveled.

Originally posted by ares834
Edit:

Maybe that is where he says it. Still he specifcally mentions that it is not undeatable and, considering he did beat Grindelwald, I'd be inclined to agree.

I'm inclined to believe you can defeat it with trickery, as well. But I do not think a straigh-up duel can result in a victory against it because it exists to not be beaten.


For example...you could rig the "arena" with traps BEFORE the duel. Then it is not a straight up duel...and you could still win. Seems like a plausible way to beat the unbeatable wand.

Originally posted by Utrigita
So a Wizard is only defined by the wand in his or her possession? If you have the greatest wand in existence it amps you moreso than any other wand meaning he had an advantage despite Voldemort having the upper hand.

Is Voldemort able to die for this thread?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree, obviously, because he really was distracted by Harry Potter and had no interest in killing Voldemort. iirc, Dumbledore vowed to never kill with the Elderwand or something. He's a hippy or something. (Explains the beard and hair )

Well, only, sorta. I assumed Siriuswriter was using the book in which case the two looked quite equal and Dumbeldore didn't really worry about Harry. In fact, Fawkes saved Dumbeldore at one point.

As for the movie, Voldemort seemed to have the upperhand at the end of the fight. Furthermore, Dumbledore only protected Harry twice that I can recal. Once, when his wand connected with Voldemort's and Voldemort was trying to get they stray bolts to hit Harry. And the second time, when Voldemort is in the sphere of water and Dumbledore pushes him away. Really, they seemed quite equal.



What? You were correct in saying Potter was and still is the master of the Elderwand. However, it appears that the Elderwand can in fact hurt it's master. We see this when Voldemort knocks out Potter with the Elderwand.



Who knew this?



I still see absolutely no reason to believe it is unbeatable. The only thing that claims that it is is a wizard legend which claims Death created it. Meanwhile, we have Dumbeldore say it is, in fact, beatable and we have wizard doing so in duels.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Voldemort was winning but didn't kill him so yes it ended in a stalemate.

The movies are different than the books and you can still fear an opponent and win. Fear is good sometimes but in the movie Voldemort didn't seem scared he seemed sure of himself he could kill him in the limited amount of time he had before the orders showed up.

No one was winning which is why it was a stalemate. A deadlock, an impasse, no one was progressing against the other, that is a stalemate by definition, which you acknowledged, so all is good...

I agree, the books are different from the movies, I also agree that you can fear someone and still beat them, it's just not applicable to Voldy and Dumbly though...

Dumbly is simply superior to Voldy. Dumbly, at the height of his power, defeated Grindelwald who had an unbeatable wand, making him the master of the wand. Harry disarmed Voldy with a basic disarming spell. Voldy is the only wizard whose killing curse failed. Come on man, don't make me say Dumbly beats Voldy by invoking the ancient magic of love...

Originally posted by ares834
Well, only, sorta. I assumed Siriuswriter was using the book in which case the two looked quite equal and Dumbeldore didn't really worry about Harry. In fact, Fawkes saved Dumbeldore at one point.

As for the movie, Voldemort seemed to have the upperhand at the end of the fight. Furthermore, Dumbledore only protected Harry twice that I can recal. Once, when his wand connected with Voldemort's and Voldemort was trying to get they stray bolts to hit Harry. And the second time, when Voldemort is in the sphere of water and Dumbledore pushes him away. Really, they seemed quite equal.

Do you remember in the movie...where....Dumbledore consistantly stood between Voldemort and Harry Potter?

Regardless, "protecting Harry twice" is still "protecting Harry" and, despite your dismissive position, it was signficant to the point of holding Dumbledore back.



Originally posted by ares834
What? You were correct in saying Potter was and still is the master of the Elderwand. However, it appears that the Elderwand can in fact hurt it's master. We see this when Voldemort knocks out Potter with the Elderwand.

What...are you talking about?

I don't remember it knocking out Potter. Unless you're talking about what I think you are...in which case, I would have already disagreed.



Originally posted by ares834
Who knew this?

Yes.


Originally posted by ares834
I still see absolutely no reason to believe it is unbeatable. The only thing that claims that it is is a wizard legend which claims Death created it. Meanwhile, we have Dumbeldore say it is, in fact, beatable and we have wizard doing so in duels.

I still see absolutely no reason to believe it is beatable. The only thing tha claims it is beatable is Albus and Egbert who probably used subversive means to net their victories. Meanwhile, we have literally hundreds of cases of sneaky victories over the owner rather than a straight up fair duel taking place. Fact is, it is not beatable in a straight up duel and tricks must be used.

Originally posted by Mindset
Is Voldemort able to die for this thread? yes.Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
No one was winning which is why it was a stalemate. A deadlock, an impasse, no one was progressing against the other, that is a stalemate by definition, which you acknowledged, so all is good...

I agree, the books are different from the movies, I also agree that you can fear someone and still beat them, it's just not applicable to Voldy and Dumbly though...

Dumbly is simply superior to Voldy. Dumbly, at the height of his power, defeated Grindelwald who had an unbeatable wand, making him the master of the wand. Harry disarmed Voldy with a basic disarming spell. Voldy is the only wizard whose killing curse failed. Come on man, don't make me say Dumbly beats Voldy by invoking the ancient magic of love... Voldemort was in control so he was winning though he didn't kill Albus yet.

You're bringing in books stuff which has no bearing on Voldemort vs. Dumbledore.

The wand never made anyone unbeatable. With all the deathly hallows one is only master of death as well. That unbeatable thing is a myth.

Voldemort wasn't the rightful owner of the elder wand and Draco disarmed Dumbedore. Harry was disarmed by Voldemort in ootp.

Dumbledore needs someone to sacrifice themselves for him to beat the killing curse.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Regardless, "protecting Harry twice" is still "protecting Harry" and, despite your dismissive position, it was signficant to the point of holding Dumbledore back.

Sure, which is why I would give Dumbles the victory. But it won't me a major ass kicking.



In the forest, yes. But it shows that the wand can in fact injure it's owner.



Um, what? That doesn't answer my question at all.




Not sure why you would say this. Dumbledore's duel with Grindelwald seems to have been just a straight-up duel, an extraordinary one though, that lasted for hours.



Doesn't mean much. This is just simply the easiest way to defeat the owner as it is a veyr powerful wand. BTW, can I have the quote that says it had been defeated hundreds of times through sneaky methods. IIRC, Dumbledore only says that it has been beaten hundreds of times and seems to be counting both defeating it in a duel and sneakin methods.



Considering we have two examples which have the owner being defeated in a straight up duel I would say nah. Really, the only source claiming it is undefeatable is a source that also claims it was crafted by Death.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure, which is why I would give Dumbles the victory. But it won't me a major ass kicking.

I disagree: it would be a major ass-kicking.


Dumbledore was about equal to Grendelwald and the fight was fairly even. Ol' Grendles had the Elderwand and Dumbledore did not. He was second as a dark wizard only to Voldemort. Yet, Dumbledore still won. Let's move forward a bit: Dumbledore has no vow of "niceness" (meaning he will kill) and he does not have to protect anyone...and his CIS is turned off about the Elderwand being in his posession.*


Conclusion: smooth victory for Dumbledore.



Originally posted by ares834
In the forest, yes. But it shows that the wand can in fact injure it's owner.

Conclusion: so what I said earlier: only if the owner wills it.



Originally posted by ares834
Um, what? That doesn't answer my question at all.

Those are two things he had and used quite well.




Originally posted by ares834
Not sure why you would say this. Dumbledore's duel with Grindelwald seems to have been just a straight-up duel, an extraordinary one though, that lasted for hours.

To the hours part...wha? I think you're exaggerating a bit. That statement usually means more than just "three hours". So let's just say it lasted 3 hours.

To the extraordinary part...yes. But it was called into question. Skeeter said Grendelwald more or less surrendered. So is it possible that Dumbledore wore down Grendelwald with "sith taunts"? lol


That MAY be the case. We really do not know why the unbeatable wand was beaten in a duel. I simply suggest that it was more than a straigh up duel. We know Dumbledore had prep for it...because he was goaded into the duel by the wizarding community in the UK: Grendelwald was in Europe.



Originally posted by ares834
Doesn't mean much. This is just simply the easiest way to defeat the owner as it is a veyr powerful wand. BTW, can I have the quote that says it had been defeated hundreds of times through sneaky methods.

Oh, sure, just let me go through thousands of pages until I find it.


NOOOT!

It has had hundreds of owners and only two actual duels over it.

Contradict that if you want to but I have no interest in pouring over pages to prove a point that we both know I'm right about.

Originally posted by ares834
IIRC, Dumbledore only says that it has been beaten hundreds of times and seems to be counting both defeating it in a duel and sneakin methods.

Can I have the quote for that? dur

And can you prove that "beaten" in that context means in duels or is it just the state of ownership that is beaten? (That's a rhetorical question)



Originally posted by ares834
Considering we have two examples which have the owner being defeated in a straight up duel I would say nah. Really, the only source claiming it is undefeatable is a source that also claims it was crafted by Death.

Oh really? So you know the precise details of both of those duels?

Do tell.


I would be very happy to know those details which thousands of Harry Potters fans ALSO want to know. This had better not be fan-fic stuff...but I can't wait to see what you have.



*I remember what the vow was about: his sister being killed in that three-way duel. Apparantly, that rather stained Dumbles. (not strained...but stained him)

Edit - Just read about a reason for why Albus won the duel against Grendles...


His sister sacrificed her life, willingly, by stepping in the way. The power of "love" triumphed the power of "unbeatable" and Grindelwald could not kill Albus. Makes sense to me, now.

It's a theory...baseless. But it satisfies my frustration with Rowling's writing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree: it would be a major ass-kicking.


Dumbledore was about equal to Grendelwald and the fight was fairly even. Ol' Grendles had the Elderwand and Dumbledore did not. He was second as a dark wizard only to Voldemort. Yet, Dumbledore still won. Let's move forward a bit: Dumbledore has no vow of "niceness" (meaning he will kill) and he does not have to protect anyone...and his CIS is turned off about the Elderwand being in his posession.*


Conclusion: smooth victory for Dumbledore.

That doesn't follow. Sure, Dumbles may have bested Grendelwald when he had the Elder wand but that doesn't mean he is going to kick Voldy's ass. After all, Voldy would have defeated Grendelwald as well. All I know is that in the books, the two (Voldy and Dumbledore) were preactically dead even.

If Dumbels begins to throw around dark magic he will win, but he isn't going to be able to effortlessly defeat Voldy.



Potentially, yes. Which is why I said it was debatable.



Um what? Still dodging my question. Who knew that Harry was the master of the elder wand when he confronted Voldy in the forest?



Sure. I was just pointing out that the duel was quite long.



Skeeter wasn't the most reliable source. Furthermore, Dumbledore would actually have to defeat Grendelwald to become the master of the wand. If Grendelwald let himself be defeated on purpose than the wand would not switch allegiance.



Potetially, yes. But it could have also just been a normal duel.



It's in Tales of Beedle the Bard, in the section about the Three Brothers. I don't have the book with me at school right now so I was wondering if you could post the quote.



I don't think you are TBH. IIRC, Dumbles simply said the wand was beaten hundreds of times which could include both methods.



I'm not the one claiming their were traps being thrown around. All we know is the Elder Wand was defeated in a duel hence not undefetable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
yes. Voldemort was in control so he was winning though he didn't kill Albus yet.

You're bringing in books stuff which has no bearing on Voldemort vs. Dumbledore.

The wand never made anyone unbeatable. With all the deathly hallows one is only master of death as well. That unbeatable thing is a myth.

Voldemort wasn't the rightful owner of the elder wand and Draco disarmed Dumbedore. Harry was disarmed by Voldemort in ootp.

Dumbledore needs someone to sacrifice themselves for him to beat the killing curse.

Sorry man, you've already admitted that that scene ended in a stalemate, so phrases like, "he was in control", "he was winning" are rendered moot by the definition of the word, Voldy was simply countered...

also, Draco might as well have been disarming a chair as not only was Dumbly weakened, but he had no intention of fighting back, he wanted to open Draco's eyes, in fact he planned to die there, his death was premeditated, fact, again one step ahead of his enemies...

so you inadvertently made Dumbly look awesome...awesome...

and do you really consider Voldy disarming a 15 year old boy as some high end feat? that's just lame...

as the dreaded Dark lord, Harry disarming Voldy sounds way more impressive than vice versa...

but seeing as how Voldy was defeated, no, accidentally defeated by a newborn, maybe it isn't so bad at all...

Originally posted by ares834
That doesn't follow. Sure, Dumbles may have bested Grendelwald when he had the Elder wand but that doesn't mean he is going to kick Voldy's ass. After all, Voldy would have defeated Grendelwald as well. All I know is that in the books, the two (Voldy and Dumbledore) were preactically dead even.

It does follow: Rowling said that Grendles was Dumble's evil twin. Pretty much even in every way.

Even if you assume the hotly contested position that the Elder Wand is beatable in a simple straight-up duel, you still have the problem of it being the most powerful wand in existance and has at least one feat that no other wand could accomplish: repairing another wand.

You're making the case that Dumbledore would have a tough time against Voldemort.

Voldemort is more powerful than Grendles, we know that, but there's no way to prove that Voldemort is immensely more powerful than Grendles. And, based on the wording, I am more inclined to believe the comparison of Voldemort's superiority is only one of marginality.


So we have Dumbledore, no distractions, no CIS, and not protecting of anyone. He has the Elder Wand. Voldemort, marginally more powerful than Grendles, is somehow supposed to defeat Dumbledore that is now in posession of the Elderwand?

Additionally, how is Dumbledore supposed to defeat Grendles when he is using the end all be all wand when they are virtually equal across the board?

Makes little sense...Albus should have been curb stomped. So there's something else going on.



For me, I could understand if Grendles was significantly inferior to Albus. Then everything would make sense and I would not hold any of the positions that I do, actually.

This is the mistake of Rowling and why fans want her to clarify what exactly went down in that duel.



Originally posted by ares834
If Dumbels begins to throw around dark magic he will win, but he isn't going to be able to effortlessly defeat Voldy.

Obviously, he would have to use some effort...because effort is required to think and move.

But it will be a fairly easy victory.


I'll rate them in a bit.



Originally posted by ares834
Potentially, yes. Which is why I said it was debatable.



Um what? Still dodging my question. Who knew that Harry was the master of the elder wand when he confronted Voldy in the forest?



Sure. I was just pointing out that the duel was quite long.



Originally posted by ares834
Skeeter wasn't the most reliable source. Furthermore, Dumbledore would actually have to defeat Grendelwald to become the master of the wand. If Grendelwald let himself be defeated on purpose than the wand would not switch allegiance.

And as we found out, neither was Dumbledore.

And, no, wanting to be defeated and being talked down are not the same thing. I consider what you just did a strawman: you did not properly represent my position.


You can lose your heart and then be swiftly defeated while still holding the Elderwand: see Draco vs. Dumbledore. He was very fatigued and focused on keeping Harry hidden. His plan was for Snape to kill him (willinginly) so that the wand would not pass allegience (similar to what Harry did) and he would choose to move on at King's Crossing. Draco really destroyed Dumbledore's final life plans.


So we konw you can be defeated through inaction which is how pretty much everyone else was defeated. That can now include ol' Grendy based on me remembering Skeeter's words. The short answer: He may not have wanted to duel anymore after being talked down but that doesn't mean he wanted to lose the wand or be defeated...two separate things. It may just mean that he had no desire to continue the duel (likely, it lasted three hours) and Albus disarmed him.



Originally posted by ares834
Potetially, yes. But it could have also just been a normal duel.

Actually, no it is not debatable. I already explained why.

Harry literally had to WANT to do it in order for the wand to be able to kill him. He did so to protect his peeps AND to destroy the last horcrux (not sure on the timeline of that last one).

iirc, Voldemort lost because he did not realize Harry was the proper owner so his final spell failed.

Originally posted by ares834
It's in Tales of Beedle the Bard, in the section about the Three Brothers. I don't have the book with me at school right now so I was wondering if you could post the quote.

I do not have the books and I am not willing to go to the library, ask my sister-in-law for it, or pour over the Skeeter diatribes.

But if you have something other than "beaten hundreds of times" which we know was clarified by examples of "killing in sleep" and "stealing it by physical force" in the instance of Harry taking Draco's wand...


Basically, in order to prove your position, you'd have to find something like: "the Eldwand was won x through duels"

Substitue x for the following:

1. Many times.

2. Almost everytime.

3. The majority of the time.

4. A significant number of times.

5. Quite often.

6. Sometimes.

7. a significant number of times (significance being far greater than just two).


And so forth. Basically, just anything that means far more often than just two times.




Originally posted by ares834
I don't think you are TBH. IIRC, Dumbles simply said the wand was beaten hundreds of times which could include both methods.

I know you don't but you do, actually. IMO, you're just arguing for the sake of it. You know that I'm right: don't you remember Dumbledore explaining the reason it changed so many hands?

Well, I got you to admit that it was beaten hundreds of times. That's about 90% of the way. Now we just have to somehow meet at it either being only two duels or many many duels. I hold that only two duels were done and they were sneaky. You hold that it was many duels.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not the one claiming their were traps being thrown around. All we know is the Elder Wand was defeated in a duel hence not undefetable.

Actually, I am certain that Dumbles won through things other than magic. It sounds as though he talked Grendles down OR Dumbles was protected due to his sister's sacrifice. I could see Rowling clarifying with: "Yup, when the sister stepped in to protect her brothers, her sacrifice protected Albus through ancient magical luuuuvs".

It seems so Rowling-ish.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
Sorry man, you've already admitted that that scene ended in a stalemate, so phrases like, "he was in control", "he was winning" are rendered moot by the definition of the word, Voldy was simply countered...

also, Draco might as well have been disarming a chair as not only was Dumbly weakened, but he had no intention of fighting back, he wanted to open Draco's eyes, in fact he planned to die there, his death was premeditated, fact, again one step ahead of his enemies...

so you inadvertently made Dumbly look awesome...awesome...

and do you really consider Voldy disarming a 15 year old boy as some high end feat? that's just lame...

as the dreaded Dark lord, Harry disarming Voldy sounds way more impressive than vice versa...

but seeing as how Voldy was defeated, no, accidentally defeated by a newborn, maybe it isn't so bad at all...

I'd like to point out that you can end a chess match in a stalemate even if one side is thoroughly trouncing the other.


I do this all the time: I'll be severely owning my opponent and I try to checkmate and I end up preventing them from being able to make a move which results in the game ending in a stalemate.


Despite the fact that it is a stalemate (because it has become "stale"...there's no way to continue the match), I clearly was holding the upper hand at the end.


So do you now understand Quanchi's position better? I hope it makes sense...it makes sense to me.


I do see Dumbledore controlling that fight.







Ares: here are my battle rankings.



Grendelwald: 95*

Voldemort: 96

Dumbledore: 98*


Scale is up to 100.


I have those stats broken down into 4 other categories.


Here they are:


Magical power (power of the magic): 25 points

Magical Knowledge: 25 points

Speed: 25 points

Skill with magic: 25 points



Voldemort:

Speed: 25

Knowledge: 22

Magical Power: 24

Skill With Magic: 25



Dumbledore:

Speed: 24

Knowledge: 24

Magical Power: 25

Skill With Magic: 25


Grendelwald:

Speed: 24

Knowledge: 24

Magical Power: 24

Skill With Magic: 23



*Without Elder Wand. With the Elder Wand, the user automatically jumps to 100x class...being virtually unbeatable in a straigh up duel. Only through sneaky or subversive means can you be defeated. For examples: you can be talked down from the duel and then the other party casts another spell when you no longer desire to duel, you can be killed in your sleep, you can step into a trap that is external of the duel that causes you to become vulnerable.


Edit - It can be argued that Dumbles admitted that Voldemort had more knowledge than he did. I beg to differ. Albus was being modest. Sure, Voldemort may know more bout somethings, but obviously, Albus knew more about others. I would say that, overall, Albus was more knowledgeable especially with the more mundane things concerning magic.

I think Rowlings point giving the story of the Elder wand is to kinda cementate that there is a reason to why DUmbledore is widely considered the best Wizard in the world.

Also concerning Albus dead sister, please recall that Albus explains to Harry that he still does not know to this day who actually killed her, so that whole love thing (considered how Albus was not in his youth exactly his older self) I find rather farfetched tbh.

I would like to ask you DDD, if you believe that the Elder wand would, if given to Harry, ensure him a safe win against Voldemort or Albus?

This fight is so similar to Yoda vs Palpatine for me.

I think dumbledore should win more often than not.

@DDM I understand and I agree with your point...

i just don't agree with Quan that Voldy was "winning" and that the duel ended in a stalemate just because Dumbly survived. Albus effectively countered Voldy...

what more, Voldy was trying to kill Albus, as evidenced by the dialogue before the duel. So the fight was between a Voldy out for the kill and Dumbledore who was trying to protect Harry...

Albus: it was foolish of you to come Tom, the aurors are on their way...

Voldy: which then I'll be gone, and you dead...

**Voldy and Dumbles duke it out**

**Voldy realizes he can't kill Albus, decides instead to possess Harry**

Albus: pussy...

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
@DDM I understand and I agree with your point...

i just don't agree with Quan that Voldy was "winning" and that the duel ended in a stalemate just because Dumbly survived. Albus effectively countered Voldy...

what more, Voldy was trying to kill Albus, as evidenced by the dialogue before the duel. So the fight was between a Voldy out for the kill and Dumbledore who was trying to protect Harry...

Albus: it was foolish of you to come Tom, the aurors are on their way...

Voldy: which then I'll be gone, and you dead...

**Voldy and Dumbles duke it out**

**Voldy realizes he can't kill Albus, decides instead to possess Harry**

Albus: pussy...


I think we agree.


Dumbledore was winning that fight only because he was controlling it while protecting Harry.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Edit - It can be argued that Dumbles admitted that Voldemort had more knowledge than he did. I beg to differ. Albus was being modest. Sure, Voldemort may know more bout somethings, but obviously, Albus knew more about others. I would say that, overall, Albus was more knowledgeable especially with the more mundane things concerning magic.

Let's go to the text, shaaaall we?

Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, pg 11


... Dumbledore, who was unsticking two lemon drops, seemed not to notice. "It all gets so confusing if we keep saying, 'You-Know-Who.' I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's name.
"I know you haven't, said Professor McGonagall, sounding half exasperated, half admiring. "But you're different. Everybody knows you're the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of."
"You flatter me, said Dumbledore calmly."Voldemort had powers I will never have."
"Only because you're too - well - noble to use them."
"It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs."


Italics mine. Bold original italics.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Let's go to the text, shaaaall we?

Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone, pg 11


... Dumbledore, who was unsticking two lemon drops, seemed not to notice. "It all gets so confusing if we keep saying, 'You-Know-Who.' I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's name.
"I know you haven't, said Professor McGonagall, sounding half exasperated, half admiring. "But you're different. Everybody knows you're the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of."
"You flatter me, said Dumbledore calmly."Voldemort had powers I will never have."
"Only because you're too - well - noble to use them."
"It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs."


Italics mine.


No, that's not the portion I was talking about.


I think it was on book 4 or even 6 where Dumbledore says Voldemort knows more than he does.


The powers comment is obviously to the horcrux stuff (and other ugly magic than Voldy used).

But my point is that he knows it - he would just never use it. He knew how to make a Horcrux, but he would never. So he was able to get inside Voldemort's brain much more easily, which was why he was able to keep ahead of Voldemort by a few steps throughout the series.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
But my point is that he knows it - he would just never use it. He knew how to make a Horcrux, but he would never. So he was able to get inside Voldemort's brain much more easily, which was why he was able to keep ahead of Voldemort by a few steps throughout the series.

Sure, to that stuff, yes.


But he did say Voldemort was better/knew more at one point. There's no way that I am going to go through books 4 and 6 to find it...that's too much reading.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
Sorry man, you've already admitted that that scene ended in a stalemate, so phrases like, "he was in control", "he was winning" are rendered moot by the definition of the word, Voldy was simply countered...

also, Draco might as well have been disarming a chair as not only was Dumbly weakened, but he had no intention of fighting back, he wanted to open Draco's eyes, in fact he planned to die there, his death was premeditated, fact, again one step ahead of his enemies...

so you inadvertently made Dumbly look awesome...awesome...

and do you really consider Voldy disarming a 15 year old boy as some high end feat? that's just lame...

as the dreaded Dark lord, Harry disarming Voldy sounds way more impressive than vice versa...

but seeing as how Voldy was defeated, no, accidentally defeated by a newborn, maybe it isn't so bad at all... Dumbledore survived his attacks he wasn't really attacking Voldemort just trying to survive save the water bubble.

Voldemort was only disarmed due to him not being the rightful ruler but if you want to ignore context I can do the same.

I am not making Dumbledore look awesome I am making Voldemort look even more impressive since he was dominating someone of Dumbledore's caliber with the most powerful wand.

Harry did so only because Voldemort wasn't the rightful ruler of the wand and he was weakened as well every time a horcrux died. Funny how Dumbledore is weakened but you assume Voldemort isn't.

Dumbledore let someone kill him. He didn't want to face the dark lord again. Coward.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
@DDM I understand and I agree with your point...

i just don't agree with Quan that Voldy was "winning" and that the duel ended in a stalemate just because Dumbly survived. Albus effectively countered Voldy...

what more, Voldy was trying to kill Albus, as evidenced by the dialogue before the duel. So the fight was between a Voldy out for the kill and Dumbledore who was trying to protect Harry...

Albus: it was foolish of you to come Tom, the aurors are on their way...

Voldy: which then I'll be gone, and you dead...

**Voldy and Dumbles duke it out**

**Voldy realizes he can't kill Albus, decides instead to possess Harry**

Albus: pussy...

you ignored this Quan, which contained some movie cannon...

and...

in Goblet of fire, Harry countered Voldemort's avada kedavra with a simple expelliarmus...

that's twice now that Voldemort's killing curse failed, that's like a record...

and that was after Voldemort inflicted the cruciatus curse on Harry...

Bellatrix Lestrange's cruciatus curse left two people permanently brain damaged, whereas when Voldemort inflicted it on Harry, Harry got up and countered a killing curse...

Lol, that must have been damaging to the ego...

I'll find the text, dadude. I've read this books at least thirty times over each. I'll find the dish on the Elder Wand from Beedle the Bard as well.

*goes searching.*

Ok, in HBP when Voldemort comes to ask for a position as a teacher at Hogwarts, there's some dialogue -

"You call it 'greatness,' then, what you have been doing, do you?" asked Dumbledore delicately.
"Certainly," said Voldemort and his eyes seemed to burn red. "I have experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed -"
"Of some kinds of magic," Dumbledore corrected him quietly. "Of some. Of others, you remain... forgive me... woefully ignorant."
For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage.
"The old argument," he siad softly. "But nothing I have seen in the world has supported your famous pronouncements that love is more powerful than my kind of magic, Dumbledore."
"Perhaps you have been looking in the wrong places," suggested Dumbledore.

So here's a passage for "Dumbles knows more."
He does talk about to Harry that he didn't know exactly what had happened in the ten years since he had last seen Tom Riddle, that there were rumors, and many of them Dumbles discusses with Voldemort elsewhere in the above passage, and it turns out that Dumbles knows what he's talking about; he makes "Tom Riddle" uncomfortable with his knowledge.

There's also a bit in the chapter "The Secret Riddle," wherein Dumbledore shows Harry the memory of going to see Tom at the orphanage, straight after Harry and he return from the memory.

pg 276
"He believed it much quicker than I did - I mean, when you told him he was a wizard," said Harry. "I didn't believe Hagrid at first, when he told me."
"Yes, Riddle was perfectly ready to believe that he was - to use his word - 'special,'" said Dumbledore.
"Did you know - then?" asked Harry.
"Did I know that I had just met the most dangerous Dark Wizard of all time ?
No, I had no idea that he was to grow up to be what he is. However, I was certainly intrigued by him. I returned to Gogwarts intending to keep an eye upon him, something I should have done in any case, given that he was alone and friendless, but which, already, I felt I ought to do for others' sake as much as his.
"His powers, as you heard, were surprisingly well-developed for such a youn wizard and - most interestingly and ominously of all - he had already discovered that he had some measure of control over them, and begun to use them consciously. And as you saw, they were not the random experiments typical of young wizards: He was already using magic against other people, to frighten, to punish, to control. The little stories of the strangled rabbit and the young boy and girl he lured into a cave were most suggestive..."

Lots of far-seeing sort of things for Dumbles...

Okay dadude, what you're talking about is in Order of the Phoenix, pg 834.

"It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell youe everything. I ask only a little patience. You will have your chance to rage at me - to do whatever you li ke - when I have finished. I will not stop you." .....

.... "Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended. Well - not quite whole. You had suffcered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle's doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years." ....

.... Did I believe Voldemort was gone forever? No, I knew not whether it would be ten, twenty, or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure he would do so, and I was sure too, knowing him as I have done, that he would not rest until he killed you.
"I knew that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power.
But I knew too where Voldemort was weak. And so I made my decision. You would protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated, to his cost. I am speaking of course....

*yay*

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
you ignored this Quan, which contained some movie cannon...

and...

in Goblet of fire, Harry countered Voldemort's avada kedavra with a simple expelliarmus...

that's twice now that Voldemort's killing curse failed, that's like a record...

and that was after Voldemort inflicted the cruciatus curse on Harry...

Bellatrix Lestrange's cruciatus curse left two people permanently brain damaged, whereas when Voldemort inflicted it on Harry, Harry got up and countered a killing curse...

Lol, that must have been damaging to the ego... Their wands wiere locked into a battle of wills which is different. They also had a connection due to their wands being of the same core.

You're ignoring the context behind every single event.

Voldemort wasn't intending on killing him with the crucio curse just letting him experience pain for a moment.

Voldemort's energy blast broke the Hogwarts enchantment by himself showing himself to be more powerful than the rest of the deatheaters.

There's a reason why the deatheaters followed him and no one would dare stand up against him. Fear.

Dumbledore let Snape kill him out of fear of facing the dark lord again.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Ok, in HBP when Voldemort comes to ask for a position as a teacher at Hogwarts, there's some dialogue -

"You call it 'greatness,' then, what you have been doing, do you?" asked Dumbledore delicately.
"Certainly," said Voldemort and his eyes seemed to burn red. "I have experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed -"
"Of some kinds of magic," Dumbledore corrected him quietly. "Of some. Of others, you remain... forgive me... woefully ignorant."
For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage.
"The old argument," he siad softly. "But nothing I have seen in the world has supported your famous pronouncements that love is more powerful than my kind of magic, Dumbledore."
"Perhaps you have been looking in the wrong places," suggested Dumbledore.

So here's a passage for "Dumbles knows more."
He does talk about to Harry that he didn't know exactly what had happened in the ten years since he had last seen Tom Riddle, that there were rumors, and many of them Dumbles discusses with Voldemort elsewhere in the above passage, and it turns out that Dumbles knows what he's talking about; he makes "Tom Riddle" uncomfortable with his knowledge.

There's also a bit in the chapter "The Secret Riddle," wherein Dumbledore shows Harry the memory of going to see Tom at the orphanage, straight after Harry and he return from the memory.

pg 276
"He believed it much quicker than I did - I mean, when you told him he was a wizard," said Harry. "I didn't believe Hagrid at first, when he told me."
"Yes, Riddle was perfectly ready to believe that he was - to use his word - 'special,'" said Dumbledore.
"Did you know - then?" asked Harry.
"Did I know that I had just met the most dangerous Dark Wizard of all time ?
No, I had no idea that he was to grow up to be what he is. However, I was certainly intrigued by him. I returned to Gogwarts intending to keep an eye upon him, something I should have done in any case, given that he was alone and friendless, but which, already, I felt I ought to do for others' sake as much as his.
"His powers, as you heard, were surprisingly well-developed for such a youn wizard and - most interestingly and ominously of all - he had already discovered that he had some measure of control over them, and begun to use them consciously. And as you saw, they were not the random experiments typical of young wizards: He was already using magic against other people, to frighten, to punish, to control. The little stories of the strangled rabbit and the young boy and girl he lured into a cave were most suggestive..."

Lots of far-seeing sort of things for Dumbles...

Okay dadude, what you're talking about is in Order of the Phoenix, pg 834.

"It is time," he said, "for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell youe everything. I ask only a little patience. You will have your chance to rage at me - to do whatever you li ke - when I have finished. I will not stop you." .....

.... "Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended. Well - not quite whole. You had suffcered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle's doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years." ....

.... Did I believe Voldemort was gone forever? No, I knew not whether it would be ten, twenty, or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure he would do so, and I was sure too, knowing him as I have done, that he would not rest until he killed you.
"I knew that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power.
But I knew too where Voldemort was weak. And so I made my decision. You would protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated, to his cost. I am speaking of course....

*yay*

PERFECT! You got both portions of what I was talking about: that Voldemort is more powerful than Dumbles, overall, but that Dumbles knows about magic that Voldemort doesn't (he considers them mundane...the love things and others).

So, yes, book 5, not 4.



I have read all the books only once.

I bow to your awesomeness. hug

Originally posted by quanchi112
Their wands wiere locked into a battle of wills which is different. They also had a connection due to their wands being of the same core.

You're ignoring the context behind every single event.

Voldemort wasn't intending on killing him with the crucio curse just letting him experience pain for a moment.

Voldemort's energy blast broke the Hogwarts enchantment by himself showing himself to be more powerful than the rest of the deatheaters.

There's a reason why the deatheaters followed him and no one would dare stand up against him. Fear.

Dumbledore let Snape kill him out of fear of facing the dark lord again.

the connection of their wands had nothing to do with the fact that Harry was able to counter the killing curse...

it doesn't change the fact that Harry would be dead if he was late in countering...

you make it sound like Dumbly's death was Voldepwn's doing, and you say I ignore context, lol...

let's revisit the circumstances regarding Dumbly's death shall we?...

Dumby, who is always a step ahead of Voldy, knew that Voldy was really a coward, being a coward he would one day ask Draco what he can't accomplish, and that is to kill him...

Dumbly tells Snape that he wants to save Draco and tells him to do the deed himself when the time comes, as he knew that Harry would pwn Voldepwn in the end anyway...

just as Albus predicted, Voldepwn orders Draco to kill Dumbly and threatens him that he will kill his family if he fails...

Draco realizes he is not a murderer and does not kill Dumbly despite Voldepwns threats...

goes to show that Dumbly is not scared of death...

Voldepwn, who is scared of Albus and death, had to divide his soul, making him virtually immortal, and in the end he still got pwned by Harry and his loyal death eaters who "feared" him, lol...

Originally posted by dadudemon
PERFECT! You got both portions of what I was talking about: that Voldemort is more powerful than Dumbles, overall, but that Dumbles knows about magic that Voldemort doesn't (he considers them mundane...the love things and others).

So, yes, book 5, not 4.



I have read all the books only once.

I bow to your awesomeness. hug

Just took a bit of flipping through - and knowing that GoF is waaayyy to early for Dumbles to be saying these things to just-traumatized Harry.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Just took a bit of flipping through - and knowing that GoF is waaayyy to early for Dumbles to be saying these things to just-traumatized Harry.


So when am I having your babies?

Hmmmm, I dunno.

When are you planning on stalking me?

Okay, Beedle's out now.

The only hand-off of the Elder Wand that takes place in the actual story is when the first brother goes off to a tavern and brags that he's just got a wand that he made Death give him. He's murdered that night, and the next guy takes the wand.

In the afterword by Dumbledore, he insists the wand is real So confirmation that there does exist the three Deathly Hallows from Dumbledore himself

Here's a bit about the wand and what little history that Dumbles gives in the Tales :

pg 99

This leaves us with the wand, and here the obstinate believers in Beedle's hidden message have at least some historical evidence to back up their wild claims. For it is the case - whether because they liked to glorify themselves, or to intimidate possible attackers, or because they truly believed what they were saying, that wizards down the ages have claimed to possess a wand more powerful than the ordinary, even an "unbeatable wand." Some of these wizards have gone so far as to claim that their wand is made of elder, like the wand supposedly made by Death. Such wands have been given many names, among them the "Wand of Destiny" and the "Deathstick."....

.... The first well-documented mention of a wand made of elder that had particularly strong and dangerous powers was owned by Emeric, commonly called "The Evil," a short-lived but exceptionally aggressive wizard who terrorized the south of England in the early Middle Ages. He died as he had lived, in a ferocious duel with a wizard known as Egbert. What became of Egbert is unknown, although the life expectancy of medieval duelers was generally short. In the days before there was a Ministry of Magic to regulate the use of Dark Magic, dueling was usually fatal.
A full century later, another unpleasant character, this time named Godelot, advanced the study of Dark Magic by writing a collection of dangerous spells with the help of a wand he described in his notebook, "my moste wicked and subtle friend, with bodie of elder, who knowes ways of magick moste evile."
As can be seen, Godelot considers his wand to be a helpmeet, almost an instructor. Those who are knowledgeable about wandlore, s I am, will agree that wands do indeed absorb the expertise of those who use them, though this is an unpredictable and imperfect business; one must consider all kinds of additional factors, such as the relationship between the wand and the user, to understand how well it is likely to perform with any particular individual. Nevertheless, a hypothetical wand that had passed through the hands of many Dark wizards would likely be to have, at the very least, a marked affinity for the most dangerous kinds of magic."


And we know just a touch of how the Elder Wand passed from person to person, from The Deathly Hallows - the first owner in current that we hear about is the wandmaker of Durmstrang - whose name I've forgotten of course and I'm not getting up one more time to grab the last book of the fourth book. From him, Grindlewald masters the wand through theft, and from him, Dumbledore masters the wand with superior dueling. Next Draco takes the wand, or rather, takes the Spirit of the wand, masters it through disarming, and Harry takes the Spirit of the wand, and then the wand itself, mastering it through superior dueling.

Unfortunately, of course, Voldemort doesn't believe that the wand can be mastered except in the case of superior dueling to the death, which is why he makes all the mistakes he does in Deathly Hallows.

Knowledge is power. Clearly, Voldemort knows less than Dumbles. So.... who wins again?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Information is power. Fixed.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
the connection of their wands had nothing to do with the fact that Harry was able to counter the killing curse...

it doesn't change the fact that Harry would be dead if he was late in countering...
That has everything to do with it. They both cast a spell at the same time and their wands were locked into a battle of wills.
Voldemort sent them forth to kill him. So it was a part of his doing. Dumbledore was going to give up his life anyways due to him being terminal because of the horcrux anyway( Go Voldie go).
Dumbledore didn't think he was a coward he thought he was a genius who pushed the boundaries of magic further than anyone up to that point. Dumbledore knew he was going to die so he wanted Snape to kill him if Draco couldn't go through with it. That was his fail safe along with Voldemort to gain Snape's complete trust. Guess what Voldemort still killed Snape anyways. Good job Dumbledore.
Dumbledore isn't scared of death more than he is Voldemort. He'd rather face his end then go through the fear of the order of the phoenix again.

Voldemort wasn't scared of Albus he took him on and Albus looked scared of him while Voldemort was laughing having a grand old time.

Voldemort, 10/10. He isn't limited to 3 minutes and kills the old fool.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fixed.

Meh.... semantics.


quanchi, baby,

"Dumbledore isn't scared of death more than he is Voldemort. He'd rather face his end then go through the fear of the order of the phoenix again."

Um, just to CLUE YOU IN, Dumbledore is the FOUNDER of the Order of the Phoenix. As in, it's his idea. He is the president of the Order of the Phoenix. He found the headquarters, he wrote the manifesto, and he made up the rules.

Rules about which he is frightened? Why would Dumbledore MAKE himself make a SOCIETY which includes all of the things he is frightened of?
Because he wouldn't.

Just because you view the world through a Voldemort-sized lens doesn't mean you're going to convince the rest of us to.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Meh.... semantics.


quanchi, baby,

"Dumbledore isn't scared of death more than he is Voldemort. He'd rather face his end then go through the fear of the order of the phoenix again."

Um, just to CLUE YOU IN, Dumbledore is the FOUNDER of the Order of the Phoenix. As in, it's his idea. He is the president of the Order of the Phoenix. He found the headquarters, he wrote the manifesto, and he made up the rules.

Rules about which he is frightened? Why would Dumbledore MAKE himself make a SOCIETY which includes all of the things he is frightened of?
Because he wouldn't.

Just because you view the world through a Voldemort-sized lens doesn't mean you're going to convince the rest of us to. I was referring to the movie order of the phoenix scene where he confronts Voldemort. I was implying he doesn't want to relive another battle with him.

Watch the scene again because it's obvious Dumbledore was scared and not in control of their fight.

So.. Dumble whiny baby can't bear to go on and fight another day?

Errrr.... yeah. That's not in his character. At. All. And you didn't change his character with your OP.

If you haven't noticed, Dumbledore never turns down a fight. And being scared doesn't mean he's a loser. Courage is not being able to handle anything on earth without crying, courage is that little voice that says, keep going.

Or some such nonsense.

Dumbledore is obviously not afraid to die, since he willingly did so.

Why would he be afraid of Voldemort?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Hmmmm, I dunno.

When are you planning on stalking me?


I just don't have it in me to stalk anyone. The "I have too much of a life" thing is going to get in the way... I could at least pretend to stalk.


On topic: Dumbles just has too much of a willingness to die. He is well over 100 at the point of the story. It is not like he knows it is his time to die. So I do not think it mattered to Dumbles when he died: it was his time, anyway.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I was referring to the movie order of the phoenix scene where he confronts Voldemort. I was implying he doesn't want to relive another battle with him.

Watch the scene again because it's obvious Dumbledore was scared and not in control of their fight.

lulz, a Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate against Dumbles...

it must really bug you to know that it is common knowledge in the wizarding community that Voldy fears Dumbledore...

it also makes me lol that despite Voldy dividing his soul into separate pieces, a bunch of teenagers still managed to track most of the horcrux and destroy them...

to try and gain immortality, only to lose it in such a lame and careless way, pathetic...

Originally posted by siriuswriter
So.. Dumble whiny baby can't bear to go on and fight another day?

Errrr.... yeah. That's not in his character. At. All. And you didn't change his character with your OP.

If you haven't noticed, Dumbledore never turns down a fight. And being scared doesn't mean he's a loser. Courage is not being able to handle anything on earth without crying, courage is that little voice that says, keep going.

Or some such nonsense. Dumbledore gave into death. The guy gave into Voldemort's will meaning his death.

I didn't say being scared does mean he's a loser the fight proves Voldemort is flat out superior considering Dumbledore was fighting for survival despite having the most powerful wand in existence.

Voldemort>>>Dumbledore in the movie.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
lulz, a Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate against Dumbles...

it must really bug you to know that it is common knowledge in the wizarding community that Voldy fears Dumbledore...

it also makes me lol that despite Voldy dividing his soul into separate pieces, a bunch of teenagers still managed to track most of the horcrux and destroy them...

to try and gain immortality, only to lose it in such a lame and careless way, pathetic... Dumbledore was trying to kill him just the same but ending up basically just fighting to live through the day.

Voldemort sure didn't look scared when he fought him just the opposite. Look at the look on Albus' face. The guy looks petrified as do the orders when they see Voldemort. The entire world fears Voldemort including Dumbledore that must drive you absolutely batsh-t insane.

The bad guy was going to lose just like in every major epic fantasy series. The funniest part is the context and the help Harry Potter has to survive against him is legendary.

Voldemort's impact, his deeds, his stamp on the Harry Potter universe >>>>Dumbledore's.

ahaha, Voldemort resorted to possessing Harry in the fight because he couldn't defeat Dumbledore...

A Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate at best, lol...

even Neville defied Voldy, haha...

Voldy has nothing to be ashamed of, fearing the one the wizarding world proclaims as the greatest wizard is quite understandable...

"the only one he's ever feared", awesome...

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dumbledore gave into death. The guy gave into Voldemort's will meaning his death.

I didn't say being scared does mean he's a loser the fight proves Voldemort is flat out superior considering Dumbledore was fighting for survival despite having the most powerful wand in existence.

Voldemort>>>Dumbledore in the movie.

I love it... "he gave into death." Because that's what you do when it's time for you to die. It's all your fault, man, you gave into it... that reminds me of something that Walter from The Big Lebowski would say, right after he declares that Dude deserves monetary compensation for that rug that really tied the room together.

Dumbles sacrificed himself. So that the Order and Harry could be ten steps ahead of Voldemort. Because Voldemort has the delusion that death, dead, and the dying are all weak.

Once Draco disarmed him, mastering the Elder Wand, he knew that Voldemort would never get it, that he might want the Wand, but he wouldn't understand that "just" not having a defense ready was, to the Wand, defeat. That's why he made the really dumb decision to kill off his most trusted companion... and that's how Harry became Master of Death.

If only Voldemort were a little less ignorant - he might have actually won his war.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
ahaha, Voldemort resorted to possessing Harry in the fight because he couldn't defeat Dumbledore...

A Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate at best, lol...

even Neville defied Voldy, haha...

Voldy has nothing to be ashamed of, fearing the one the wizarding world proclaims as the greatest wizard is quite understandable...

"the only one he's ever feared", awesome... He changed his tactics while Dumbledore was supposed to protect Harry instead of being helpless.

Dumbledore tried drowning him all the same and killing him with redirecting his Fiendfyre. Looks like that failed.

Neville got knocked out after Voldemort laughed at him.

Dumbledore feared Voldemort on screen. Dumbledore couldn't even prevent Voldemort taking possession of him.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
I love it... "he gave into death." Because that's what you do when it's time for you to die. It's all your fault, man, you gave into it... that reminds me of something that Walter from The Big Lebowski would say, right after he declares that Dude deserves monetary compensation for that rug that really tied the room together.

Dumbles sacrificed himself. So that the Order and Harry could be ten steps ahead of Voldemort. Because Voldemort has the delusion that death, dead, and the dying are all weak.

Once Draco disarmed him, mastering the Elder Wand, he knew that Voldemort would never get it, that he might want the Wand, but he wouldn't understand that "just" not having a defense ready was, to the Wand, defeat. That's why he made the really dumb decision to kill off his most trusted companion... and that's how Harry became Master of Death.

If only Voldemort were a little less ignorant - he might have actually won his war. He was going to die but didn't have to when he did die.

Dumbledore gave into Voldemort's will. Dumbledore knew he couldn't defeat him. That speaks volumes about how formidable Voldemort actually is.

Harry did trick Voldemort but seeing as how Voldy wasn't present you can hardly blame him he's not all knowing.

The bad guy always loses in these kinds of films but Dumbledore realizing he has to forfeit his own life tells the story.

Dumbledore, obviously. Anyone that paid 1/2 attention to the films knows this. Another fail thread.

I like the scene before Dumbles comes in, Harry was outnumbered 2-1 against Voldy and Bellatrix...

Nobody ordered Bellatrix to leave, but she left when Dumbles came in, she left her master because she too was afraid of the greatest wizard...

I also like how Rowling portrayed Voldy as the big baddie, yet at the same time made it common knowledge to the wizarding world that he feared Dumbledore, awesome...

Originally posted by Robtard
Dumbledore, obviously. Anyone that paid 1/2 attention to the films knows this. Another fail thread.

Dear, we're on page five.

This was a fail thread on post one.

But glad you stopped by and put your official FAIL stamp on us!

Originally posted by Robtard
Dumbledore, obviously. Anyone that paid 1/2 attention to the films knows this. Another fail thread. Voldemort was definitely in control in their battle in order of the phoenix.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
I like the scene before Dumbles comes in, Harry was outnumbered 2-1 against Voldy and Bellatrix...

Nobody ordered Bellatrix to leave, but she left when Dumbles came in, she left her master because she too was afraid of the greatest wizard...

I also like how Rowling portrayed Voldy as the big baddie, yet at the same time made it common knowledge to the wizarding world that he feared Dumbledore, awesome... Bellatrix knew not to get involved in their battle. She is afraid of Voldemort and won't even kill Harry despite her enthusiasm in Harry's death.

This is based off of the books and fearing someone doesn't mean inferiority yet in the movies Dumbledore is not only afraid but fighting for his life against him.

Dumbledore and the rest of the wizarding world needs to combine their efforts to bring him down and Dumbledore forfeits his own life against him.

Awesome.